Open Letter to People of ...
Goddess of Love and Understanding
something called the Albanian Scribbles, or some such nonsense,
wrote:
> If a white
> gay person walks up to me and says "march with me brother on Washington",
> I am going straight to Ass kicking.
How nice for you - so sophisticated of you to capitalize my ass.
I've never asked you for a bloody thing, but it's the thought that
counts....
> This is not the alt.pro.gay thread
> so don't be posting no damn articles on gay, bisexual, and everything
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> else on this subject titling it "To PEOPLE OF COLOR".
Well, you've got a double negative there, so I guess the person that
put it in s.c.a.a. is just doing what you asked.....
> ---------------------------------------------
> Of course these opinions are only mines......
Opinions are mines??? Oh, I get it, like out of the mouths
of babes come gems - right - mines ==> gems. Very clever.
> Why would this country, private industry, or anything else,
> help uplift Alkebulanians?????
> ----------------------------------------------------------
Indeed.
Love, darling.
Sylvia
Alkebulanian Scribe
|> On 31-MAR-1993, an article in newsgroup soc.motss from
|> something called the Albanian Scribbles, or some such nonsense,
Alkebulanian => indigenous word ancient "africans" used to say "african".
Scribe => I believe is obvious.
Your statement makes my point exactly. The point of the disconcern of
outside minorities who pimp the Alkebulanian moment for their
own gain. I'm sure their are many other examples of this. I myself
have had a white woman tell me she understands black problems because
she is a woman, also a Jew told me that, an Irish person told
me that, a white guy because his parents were prejudice told me that,etc.
I am just plain tired of people coming to Alkebulanians with their
problems, expecting their assistance just because they have a problem
too.
|> Love, darling.
|> Sylvia
--
Hetep ,
Scribe
---------------------------------------------
Of course these opinions are only mine's......
Goddess of Love and Understanding
tay...@hojo.larc.nasa.gov (Alkebulanian Scribe) writes:
>Your statement makes my point exactly.
Well, knock me down - I still don't know what your point was.
There I am, reading soc.motss, and some looney starts posting about
how s/he's going to knock people out who come begging for valuable
activist-services(tm) although I can't imagine that they'd be
worth anything... Only by visiting s.c.a.a. and paging
backwards through articles did I acquire a clue on why this
pointless thread started appearing in soc.motss.
>I'm sure their are many other examples of this. I myself
>have had a white woman tell me she understands black problems because
>she is a woman, also a Jew told me that, an Irish person told
>me that, a white guy because his parents were prejudice told me that,etc.
>
>I am just plain tired of people coming to Alkebulanians with their
>problems, expecting their assistance just because they have a problem
>too.
So, being Irish, Jewish, a woman, etc. is "a problem" ????
No one is "pimping" you or your cute little movement, darling -
They might be patronizing you. Maybe they think they are being
courteous. They are certainly stroking your massive ego
by pretending that you have some wisdom, and/or political clout.
Anyway, I didn't see *anything* in the articles that so outraged
you originally that indicated the race of the posting party. You,
sir, started flaming your threats to gay whites without any
prompting on soc.motss - FAR less appropriate than the insults
you alone seem to have felt from the original articles.
Keep your hateful scribblings in the right groups.
>---------------------------------------------
>Of course these opinions are only mine's......
Classic. You call this a correction?? What a fucking joke.
It's called English. Use it.
Ta,
Sylvia
Russ Williams
>I am just plain tired of people coming to Alkebulanians with their
>problems, expecting their assistance just because they have a problem
>too.
Scribe,
First of all, you seem unaware that Alkebulanians and lesbigays are
not disjoint sets. So many of the gay people you see as outsiders
coming to you for assistance are in fact "your people".
But let's ignore that fact. Pretend there are no black gays. Then
why should you care about gay rights? It sounds like you don't
give a damn about anything but black rights; after all, you are
a black person.
You should care about gay rights for the same reason you should
care about women's rights, Hispanic rights, disabled rights,
etc etc etc. Civil rights are not a zero-sum game; you're not
in competition with other people for limited resources. There's
no reason why EVERYONE can't be treated with respect. As long
as people think "I'm in minority X so I will only work for
minority X rights, and to hell with everyone else", it's going
to be much harder for ANYONE to make progress. You know the
phrase "divide and conquer"? Keeping different subgroups
viewing each other as the enemy is an effective way to keep
them from getting the civil rights they deserve.
I volunteer at a rape crisis center even though I'm male and
hence pretty unlikely to ever be raped. I work for abortion rights
even though it's even MORE unlikely I'll ever be pregnant and
need an abortion. [I've even had a vasectomy :-) ] I recently
attended an anti-KKK rally even though I'm white. I think all this
helps make the world a better place. If someone needs assistance
for a good cause, I say help them out if you can, and if you
don't have the time or energy, just say so -- don't "kick their
Ass"! How is that kind of hateful reaction going to help
improve things?
>Why would this country, private industry, or anything else,
>help uplift Alkebulanians?????
Because it's the right thing to do, and because cooperation works
better than hate. You've got a chip on your shoulder that's
blocking your view, apparently, but there are plenty of
nonAlkebulanians who work for civil rights for Alkebulanians
if you would only look and see. Sure, a Jew or a white woman
or whatever doesn't truly know what it's like to be Alkebulanian,
but why do you then assume that they couldn't possibly have any
interest in supporting your civil rights? I wonder if it's
because you seem so singlemindedly focused on your one cause
and won't consider helping other people. Look around. There
are nonblacks supporting blacks, there are men supporting women,
there are straights supporting queers. People can cooperate.
sincerely,
Russ
Joseph Francis
>In article <1pd3gq...@rave.larc.nasa.gov> tay...@hojo.larc.nasa.gov (Alkebulanian Scribe) writes:
>>I am just plain tired of people coming to Alkebulanians with their
>>problems, expecting their assistance just because they have a problem
>>too.
>
>Scribe,
>First of all, you seem unaware that Alkebulanians and lesbigays are
>not disjoint sets. So many of the gay people you see as outsiders
>coming to you for assistance are in fact "your people".
Alkebulanians?
--
US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.
Carter E. Bing
Greetings,
I had said to myself that when this posting first appeared on
SCAA that I wasn`t going to get caught up in this issue. In the past I
have stated my opposition to African Americans joining into this
movement but I guess that I am like the prophet Jerimah (sp) because
there is a fire stirring in my heart which forces me to speak.
I would like to consider myself a serious student of politics.
From what I have learned so far I do know that whenever we are foolish
enough to join any movement that is an attempt to gaining anything
beside our human rights that we (African Americans) always end up taking
it in the behind. For some of our gay members this may be a desirable
outcome but I for one will take a pass. Look at any movement where the
majority has been white (women, gay, workers, ect) and you will see that
when they start coming into the fold with white males that it is the
minorities in those movements that come face to face with the "Rude
Awakening" that they are still left out. "Still the nigger" that happens
to be gay, woman, farm worker, union member and so forth.
So if you ask me the so-called Gay March on Washington has
nothing to do with me and my people. My heart goes out to my
brothers and sisters that are gay and fail to realize the
truth of joining any movement that dosen't have human rights
as their main focus. They are being misled. I view it as another disposed group
of the majority that are using my people and our limited resources to
help that group gain inclusion in the majority. When you decide to March
on Washington for Human Rights then give me a call..
As always I am your brother,
Carter
--
"The noblest of pursuits can hardly be thought much by men whose
own way of life run counter to it."
Socrates from The Republic of Plato
--
"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the
social and political equality of the white and black races--I am not,
nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor
Jennifer S Broekman
>From what I have learned so far I do know that whenever we are foolish
>enough to join any movement that is an attempt to gaining anything
>beside our human rights that we (African Americans) always end up taking
>it in the behind.
I agree. It was a terrible mistake when the female suffragists decided to
put women's right to vote on the back burner in order to work for the
abolition of slavery.
> My heart goes out to my
>brothers and sisters that are gay and fail to realize the
>truth of joining any movement that dosen't have human rights
>as their main focus.
Of course. Since we all know that gays, lesbians, and bisexuals aren't really
human, marching for gay, lesbian, and bisexual rights is obviously completely
unrelated to human rights.
If we had a March for Human Rights, would you and the Scribe be willing to
march next to the East Coast Bisexual Network? How about next to NOW? Are we
ready for an umbrella march or will we lose half the potential marchers to
I-won't-march-*them* syndrome?
-jenneke
I *am* family. How could I not have family values?
Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy
The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. - Alfred Kinsey
jenneke is: js...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Carter E. Bing
> bi...@jazz.concert.net (Carter E. Bing) writes:
>
>I agree. It was a terrible mistake when the female suffragists decided to
> put women's right to vote on the back burner in order to work for the
>abolition of slavery.
reasons. I have notice in the past that the gay community
tries to compare themself to the African community when it
comes to a history abuse in this country and I think that they
are two very different issues. I am sure that if you would
check you could find gay slave owners..
As I stated in my post I feel that when gays have
their rights that those brothers and sisters who have joined
that movement will soon see that their condition hasn`t
changed. The only thing that will change is that those that
they considered their allies will soon join the power
structure that stills continues to oppress our people.
>
>Of course. Since we all know that gays, lesbians, and bisexuals aren't really
>human, marching for gay, lesbian, and bisexual rights is obviously completely
>unrelated to human rights.
Those are your words not mine. I did not say that gay
people weren`t human but the exact opposite. If we could
secure human rights for all then gays would be covered under
that provision.
>
>If we had a March for Human Rights, would you and the Scribe be willing to
>march next to the East Coast Bisexual Network? How about next to NOW? Are we
>ready for an umbrella march or will we lose half the potential marchers to
>I-won't-march-*them* syndrome?
>
>-jenneke
I also answered this question in my posting. If there
were a march for human rights then I would be there. I think
that you are assuming from my postion on the issue that I am
anti-gay. No where in my post did I say that. If you would
reread it you will see that I object from African Americans
to linking to movements that will not help us in our quest to
be free. I can`t speak, nor will I speak for the brother that
calls himself Scribe, that he can do for himself.
Just because I don`t agree with you it dosen`t mean
that I am your enemy.
Carter
--
"I tried to get a drink in the terminal bar. The bartender
asked to see ID.... I was living a nightmare. I was
stranded in a happy paranoid land where the only people
J. N. Shaumeyer
Carter E. Bing (bi...@jazz.concert.net) adopts
an oh-so-rational air of objective indifference:
> If there were a march for human rights then I would be there.
> I think that you are assuming from my postion on the issue that
> I am anti-gay. No where in my post did I say that.
And yet, in the previous post, we find Carter E. Bing saying:
> ... we (African Americans) always end up taking
> it in the behind. For some of our gay members this may be a desirable
> outcome but I for one will take a pass.
Veiled references to anal intercourse and cheap
insinuations that your black brothers may like it
up the ass, whereas you will "take a pass", won't
go far in convincing many that your position is not
anti-gay.
--jns
Jennifer S Broekman
> js...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman) writes:
>> bi...@jazz.concert.net (Carter E. Bing) writes:
>>I agree. It was a terrible mistake when the female suffragists decided to
>> put women's right to vote on the back burner in order to work for the
>>abolition of slavery.
> You can`t compare "gays rights" to slavery for obvious
>reasons.
[...]
You miss my point. When white women suffragists put aside their campaign for
the vote to work on the abolition of slavery, they were "linking to a movement
that would not help them in their quest to be free". Do you object to their
participation? Or is it only African-Americans who shouldn't participate in
movements focused on other situations in which humans don't have all the
rights they ought to have?
> If there
>were a march for human rights then I would be there.
Now all we need to do is pick a year and get some organizing done.;-)
>I think
>that you are assuming from my postion on the issue that I am
>anti-gay. No where in my post did I say that. If you would
>reread it you will see that I object from African Americans
>to linking to movements that will not help us in our quest to
>be free.
I don't think you're anti-gay. I think you want us to pick a single
attribute of our many-faceted selves and not work towards freedom of
expression for the other facets. I think you feel that skin color is
*the* attribute to pick. We're not free until all of our facets are.
An African-American lesbian Jew isn't free if her skin color is acceptable,
but her gender, sexual orientation, and religion are still used to chain her.
a flying squirrel
>tries to compare themself to the African community when it
>comes to a history abuse in this country and I think that they
>are two very different issues. I am sure that if you would
>check you could find gay slave owners..
Yeah, and there are African homophobes. What's your point?
--
a flying squirrel is: ric...@ecureuil.apple.com Apple Computer, Inc.
If one flys down the ILS inverted, does the localizer needle reverse sense?
adolphson
> bi...@jazz.concert.net (Carter E. Bing) writes:
>
> >tries to compare themself to the African community when it
> >comes to a history abuse in this country and I think that they
> >are two very different issues. I am sure that if you would
> >check you could find gay slave owners..
>
> Yeah, and there are African homophobes. What's your point?
And the sub-Saharan slave trade still goes on,
and is still in the hands of black Africans.
Or is slavery only bad when practiced by
those of European descent?
Arne
John Flanagan
>Scribe => I believe is obvious.
>
>Your statement makes my point exactly. The point of the disconcern of
>outside minorities who pimp the Alkebulanian moment for their
>own gain.
I guess I don't understand the connection to the original posting (the
Open Letter), which was written by a lesbian of color. She didn't
say she is African (Alkebulanian) specifically, but she may well be,
which would certainly not make her appeal that of an outside minority
seeking some sort of "you-scratch-my-back-I-scratch-yours" deal.
Do you intend to turn your back on your sister?
--John
--
John Flanagan ||
jo...@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu ||
U. of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astro.||
2505 Correa Rd., Honolulu, HI 96822 ||
Makala P Mweene
>bi...@jazz.concert.net (Carter E. Bing) writes:
>
>>tries to compare themself to the African community when it
>>comes to a history abuse in this country and I think that they
>>are two very different issues. I am sure that if you would
>>check you could find gay slave owners..
Take it back far enough carter. In Egyptian history there are numerous
instances of polygamy, and even of heterosexual incest, none of homo
sexuality. On the other hand Greco Roman history is awash with reports
of the gay life style. An example that comes immediately to mind is of the
despot Commodus (AD 186) who was reported to have had 300 female consorts
his favourite two being Marcia and his elder sister Fadilla. He also had
and equal number of boys of every rank. (CF: Edward Gibbon, the Decline
and Fall of the Roman Empire, Book I).....
>
>Yeah, and there are African homophobes. What's your point?
I always find the use the suffix -phobe to be misapplied in the
above context because those who find the practice of the gay-life
style disagreeable do not always fear homosexuals...
And besides which I hope you are aware of how alien and repugnant ordinary
Africans would regard this form of conduct...
makala
Makala P Mweene
(adolphson) writes:
>> Yeah, and there are African homophobes. What's your point?
>
>And the sub-Saharan slave trade still goes on,
>and is still in the hands of black Africans.
>Or is slavery only bad when practiced by
>those of European descent?
>Arne
Every one knows how loudly homosexuals cry foul when they perceive a wrong
to have been committed against them. To start with, where in Subsaharan
Africa is the slave trade still going on??
And when was the trade in the hands of subsaharan Africans??
It seems homosexuals have an overwhelmimg need to increase their numbers.
In this campaign, they see homosexuality in any act, and presumme its
universal practise without even the courtesy of investigation. This obsession
has been carried to the world of animals where without a shred of evidence
they claim to have seen the existence of same sex behavior....
They take umbrance when ever anyone pronounces that homosexual is non-existence
in his community. This is the reason for the above, ridculous assertion..
makala
Joseph Francis
>
> Greetings,
In word, but not in spirit.
> I had said to myself that when this posting first appeared on
>SCAA that I wasn`t going to get caught up in this issue. In the past I
>have stated my opposition to African Americans joining into this
>movement but I guess that I am like the prophet Jerimah (sp) because
>there is a fire stirring in my heart which forces me to speak.
Honey, you better drink some alka-seltzer before you mistake heartburn
for thought again.
> I would like to consider myself a serious student of politics.
Its a dirty job, but someone has to do it.
>From what I have learned so far I do know that whenever we are foolish
>enough to join any movement that is an attempt to gaining anything
>beside our human rights that we (African Americans) always end up taking
>it in the behind. For some of our gay members this may be a desirable
>outcome but I for one will take a pass.
Looks more like you took a dump, something assholes are designed to
do. I hope you enjoyed this pathetic rhetorical exercise; you
certainly haven't learned much through racist blinders -- been too
long in the Spite Lee school of yawningly important
self-aggrandizement.
> As always I am your brother,
--
Joseph Francis
It clearly isn't bad when in the hands of Muslims, since Malcom X not
only became Muslim but went on Haj to Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia
when at a period (in the 60's) when it was legal. It is one of those
curiosities - african americans embracing a religion which, as
practiced in its holy land, incorporated the slavery which they
finally escaped in America, into daily life as late as the 60's. As
far as Carter Bing's assesment goes, some number of the American black
muslim movement not only took it in the ass, but rushed to sign up.
Rhetorically speaking darling, of course.
I'm still curious about how modern american black islam feels about
the indentured servitude practiced in Saudi Arabia today as they
exploit South Asian islamic communitites.
adolphson
>
> (adolphson) writes:
> >And the sub-Saharan slave trade still goes on,
> >and is still in the hands of black Africans.
> >Or is slavery only bad when practiced by
> >those of European descent?
>
> to have been committed against them.
Everyone knows how loudly African-Americans cry foul when they perceive
a wrong to have been committed against them.
> To start with, where in Subsaharan
> Africa is the slave trade still going on??
According to a UN report last year or the year before,
most slaves on the Arabian Peninsula are from the Sudan
originally.
> And when was the trade in the hands of subsaharan Africans??
Historically and right now this very second.
> It seems homosexuals have an overwhelmimg need to increase their numbers.
Um, what does this have to do with the fact that black
Africans always have been major players in the slave
trade, and not just as slaves? Look at the economic
history of Zanzibar when you've got some spare time.
> In this campaign, they see homosexuality in any act, and presumme its
> universal practise without even the courtesy of investigation.
[Blah blah blah]
> This is the reason for the above, ridculous assertion..
Nonsense. The reason I mentioned black Africans as slave
traders is that you proposed the demonstrably false
equation that white = slave trader/slave owner.
Arne
Carter E. Bing
>
>Looks more like you took a dump, something assholes are designed to
>do. I hope you enjoyed this pathetic rhetorical exercise; you
>certainly haven't learned much through racist blinders -- been too
>long in the Spite Lee school of yawningly important
>self-aggrandizement.
>
Greetings
I really find it amusing that more people found my
play on word offensive but failed to debate the concerns that
many in the African American community has when it comes to
joining in on the "gay rights" movement. The fact is and has
been that whenever AAs have joined in with various movements
that we still end up on the short end it once those movements
reach some of their goals. Some have mentioned that this
letter was writened by a sister. I respect her for taking
such a bold stand but I think that the sister is wrong when
she assumes that once the gay rights movement wins their
rights she will be free. I think that nothing will change for her because those
who will reap the benefits will be those of the majority. If
you think that those white gays are incapable of
discriminating againts their brothers and sisters of color then
look at the responses that I have received because I beg to
differ with their movement. I am blasted for making a joke
which by the way describes a practice that takes place in every
social groups.
I have always thought that sometimes humanity can transcend
the limitations of personality, prejudice, and religion and come up
with documents which are instruments that can be fair and honest to all.
I have no problem with the gay community wanting to have their standards
codified into law as long as those standards reflect that which is true
for humanity. I don`t mean the truth as defined by the various
doctrines of religions created by humanity but I mean that which is the
truth regardless of our interpretation. Irregardless of what
various groups would like to think their are basic characteristics that
are common to us all. The right to love as consenting adults, the right
to make positive contributions to our society, the right to raise our
families, to life, liberty so forth are basic human rights.
If we address the human rights issue then we would secure rights for every
section of humanity. In my mind if we agree as a nation and world that
here is something "divine" that determines the basic sameness of us all
that would take the entire debate and attempts to find solutions out of
the arena of political interpretation. What I mean by that is that as we
are now experiencing with the overturning of abortion restrictions, the
debate of gays in the armed services ect., would no longer be subject to
the political whim of the group in power for their interpretation and
enforcement. The issues would be resolved because we would all realize
that we all have the right to be happy and secure regardless of our skin
color, sexual orientation, philosophy, religion and any other factor
that divides.
America is and always has been about power. Power
of the government and power of the people. With all things the
corruption of human frailty always lurks in the background and we have
to constantly battle with it in order to do that which is right.
Sometimes we do and sometimes we don`t but that is the score. We can`t
either work to improve the system or we call be the victim of that
system the choice is ours.
One final comment. A great number of people, when they hear my
views concerning this subject, automatically assume that I am against
gays. That is far from the truth. I am for my people. In my mind we have
been misused by various movements in the past with the same arguments
and lures. In my mind this practice has to stop. We have to consider
every proposal and movement that comes before us. If these movements aren`t
for establishing rights for all then we will lose out. This is my
personal philosophy and it could be wrong but until I hear something
better then I am going to stick with it.
Joseph Francis
Pray tell, which ordinary africans? Moroccans? Algerians? Coptic
Christians? Eritreans? Ghanans? Somalians? Ebo? Watusi? etc. Which of
the hundred peoples which populate central, eastern, western, and
southern Africa? Which facet of the 'gay lifestyle?' Men kissing?
Men wearing ritual makeup? Men holding hands in public? Men living
apart from women? Women having children? Women living in groups?
I find the use of the word 'African' to denote peoples of African
descent and the use of 'African' words to describe cultures more
different socially and spiritually than any run-of-the-mill 'European'
culture (yet again: which one? Nordic? Celtic? Saxon? Roman? Cycladic?
Persian? Gaelic? Breton? Alsacian? Icelandic? Hussarian?) misapplied
most often by people who have neither visited Africa (in all its
parts) nor actually know any native Africans. And besides which I hope
you are are aware of how alien and repugnant different African peoples
would regard you lumping them together and identifying as one of them.
If you want to lambast lesbigays from a black homophobe viewpoint, you
better do your homework on lesbigays and African communities very,
very carefully, 'cause between us, I've access to a lot more
information than you do.
Jamais Cascio
>universal practise without even the courtesy of investigation. This obsession
>has been carried to the world of animals where without a shred of evidence
>they claim to have seen the existence of same sex behavior....
>
Mr. Mweene, take a look at _Chimpanzee Politics_ by Franz De Waal.
Among the discussion of sexual behavior of the troop of chimps, there
is a small bit on same-sex activities of young males, including a
picture of two male chimps grabbing each others' erect penises.
Also, take a look at _Discover_ magazine from June 1992, cover story
on the Science of Sex. You'll find that same-sex-sexuality is actually
_very_ common among non-human animals, especially primates. Pygmy
chimps (_Pan_ _paniscus_) commonly have same-sex activities, particularly
the females.
>makala
>
>
Jamais Cascio
Jamais A. Cascio \\ "I'd rather be a smartass than a dumbass"
cas...@garnet.berkeley.edu \\ -me
\\ "Too bad you never had a choice"
\\ -my wife
**************************************************************************
Martina Cartwright
:
>I always find the use the suffix -phobe to be misapplied in the
>above context because those who find the practice of the gay-life
>style disagreeable do not always fear homosexuals...
>And besides which I hope you are aware of how alien and repugnant ordinary
>Africans would regard this form of conduct...
>
>makala
Uh, Makala, what are you talking about? Rather who are you talking about?
Are you speaking of ordinary HETEROSEXUAL, Africans or are you speaking
for all Africans--regardless of sexual orientation? Be careful, because I
would gladly introduce you to a number of Homosexual/Bi-sexual Africans--
if they would consent to meet you is another matter!!!!!!
By the way, Makala, you speak of repugnance--aren't you the individual
asserting your love "of watching lesbians go at it?" It seems that you
can quell your repugnance for a few moments to ENJOY one aspect of the
gay community. Just thought I'd point that out....FEELING LIKE A FAT
HYPOCRITE??????? You should!!! Or by the way, I'd like to see you
square your feelings on lesbianism with your feelings on homosexuality,
in general. Surprise me, Makala. I wanna hear the explanation...
Clay Colwell
Carter, you say that you are not against gays, that you are for
your people. OK.
You also say that if a movement isn't focused on establishing
rights for all, then we all lose out. OK.
Now the kicker: do you then oppose groups working specifically
for the betterment of just African-Americans? If not, you
may want to rethink your position.
I will support any group working to establish basic human
rights. Of *course* I focus on gay rights; it means the
most to me, since it involves me directly. I will *not*,
however, deny any other group the respect they deserve for
the focus they take on the gaining of basic human rights
for all.
If gay people suddenly gain all the rights they deserve,
fantastic! That does *not* remove my duty to support those
who haven't made it yet.
If African-Americans suddenly gain all the rights *they*
deserve, again, fantastic! I would hope that they would
not then ignore those of us still in the fight.
--
Clay Colwell Profound quotes? Feh!
arch...@vnet.ibm.com Disclaimer: The post above does not necessarily
IBM Austin, TX reflect the views of IBM. These are *my* opinions!
Charlie Fulton
>I always find the use the suffix -phobe to be misapplied in the
>And besides which I hope you are aware of how alien and
>repugnant ordinary Africans would regard this form of conduct...
>
Homphobe is the wrong word, indeed. How's about arrogant, ignorant,
vaguely-sympathetic and above all SMUG bigot?
I lampoon your detestible and indefensible attitude towards
homosexuality in a post entitled, "to pro-gay acitivist or
something of the like." It's addressed to the Alkebulanian
Scribe, but it's really about *you* specifically.
Charlie
Charlie Fulton
>By the way, Makala, you speak of repugnance--aren't you the individual
>asserting your love "of watching lesbians go at it?" It seems that you
>can quell your repugnance for a few moments to ENJOY one aspect of the
>gay community.
Oh Martina, listen.
It is a healthy and good thing for a woman to please her man.
If he wishes to view her having sex with another woman, then
it is the woman's duty to swallow the repulsion she feels and
please her man. It is only a filthy act of the man didn't
initiate it.
If you weren't such a perfidious pervert, you'd know that.
Charlie
Martina Cartwright
Thanks for clearing that up for me, Charlie!! I was a little confused. :-)
Ooh, why don't we cross-post this on alt.feminism and see what they have to say
about a "woman's duty." :-)
>Charlie
Martina
Rob Dobson
>In article <76...@blue.cis.pitt.edu>
>Makala P Mweene, pmm...@pitt.edu writes:
>>I always find the use the suffix -phobe to be misapplied in the
>>above context (homophobe) because those who find the practice of
>>the gay-life style disagreeable do not always fear homosexuals...
>>And besides which I hope you are aware of how alien and
>>repugnant ordinary Africans would regard this form of conduct...
HOW many times have i posted this?
THE SUFFIX -PHOBE DOES NOT JUST MEAN "FEAR"
IT ALSO MEANS "HAVING AN AVERSION TO". It is the opposite of the
suffix -phile, which means having an attraction to or interest
in.
Hence, an angloPHOBE has an aversion to england and english culture,
while an angloPHILE has an interest in england.
GOT IT?????????
--
I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, and I was
not offended. ---President Clinton
Alkebulanian Scribe
come in all shades, and sexes, as if that is not obvious.
First of all noone can, or has negated my argument that blacks should not
be considered pro-life, pro-gay, pro-enviroment, pro-elderly, democrats,
poor, un-educated, or anything else JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK.
If I received a letter saying, TO BLACK PEOPLE, this weekend there is
a democratic congregation at ......., I would be just as pissed. The
letter should say TO DEMOCRATS blah blah blah. The first example
has implications that black people are all democratics. So when I
saw a letter saying TO PEOPLE OF COLOR there is a gay march ......
I became just as upset, for the same reason.
Now, I help at an elderly home, speak out for women's rights (which
should be obvious for any of you who know about the scribe's ramblings),
mentor, volunteer to teach children as well as African Cultural Enlighten-
ment, etc. So the argument of you can do other things besides be
pro-black does not apply to me. Deal with my complaint not my character.
--
Hetep ,
Scribe
---------------------------------------------
Of course these opinions are only mine's......
Why would this country, private industry, or anything else,
help uplift Alkebulanians?????
----------------------------------------------------------
Alkebulanian Scribe
It's about time some-one besides myself, stood up on this issue.
I don't see, white gays writing letters to white people in general
asking for support for gay-rights. Or asian-gays or indian-gays or
anyone else pleading to their race for support. So why do black-gays
expect all blacks to support them?
And that is just an example, the same holds true for womans rights,
animal rights, etc. Just because I am black does not mean I am pro-
women's rights.
Someone asked me, if there was a march on washington for women's rights
would I march with them. My answer is yes because I feel strongly
about the mistreatment of the woman, not because I am black.
Alkebulanian Scribe
|> I don't think you're anti-gay. I think you want us to pick a single
|> attribute of our many-faceted selves and not work towards freedom of
|> expression for the other facets. I think you feel that skin color is
|> *the* attribute to pick. We're not free until all of our facets are.
|> An African-American lesbian Jew isn't free if her skin color is acceptable,
|> but her gender, sexual orientation, and religion are still used to chain her.
That is not mine nor carter's position on this. You are trying to twist the
original point to your favor. Being I posted the original point I am
quite aware of what it is.
Answer me this. DO YOU THINK THAT ALL BLACK PEOPLE AGREE WITH YOUR POSITION
ON ANYTHING?????!!!!! restated for clarity DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS SOMETHING
THAT YOU BELIEVE, THAT ALL OTHER BLACKS IN THE WORLD BELIEVE, THAT IS NOT
RELATED TO BLACKS SOLELY.
I expect not. So why expect all blacks to support any of your nonblack movements?
If you do not expect all blacks to support your movements then you agree
with me, and are merely picking an argument for your own pleasure.
Alkebulanian Scribe
|> And the sub-Saharan slave trade still goes on,
|> and is still in the hands of black Africans.
|> Or is slavery only bad when practiced by
|> those of European descent?
|>
|> Arne
I admit I have never heard of this. You are suggesting that
Africans are selling Africans as slaves, are you not? I need
someone from the continent who is aware of this to please
enlighten my ignorant self as to the truth of this matter.
And please define and describe the slavery that is practiced.
Alkebulanian Scribe
|> Do you intend to turn your back on your sister?
That hurts. I would never turn back on my sisters anywhere. To ignore a queen
is to ignore God. Yet, that was not my point. It does not matter who or what
she is, the point I made was in generalizing an opinion to a race of people.
Because we are black does not mean we are pro or anti gay.
adolphson
tay...@hojo.larc.nasa.gov (Alkebulanian Scribe) writes:
> To ignore a queen is to ignore God.
Then listen up, Alkie. Your homophobic contributions to
soc.motss are unwelcome and reflect poorly on you.
Arne, a queen and God
Terry Bartlett
>First of all noone can, or has negated my argument that blacks should not
>be considered pro-life, pro-gay, pro-enviroment, pro-elderly, democrats,
>poor, un-educated, or anything else JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK.
They shouldn't have to. Why is so difficult for you to understand that
there are black people who are each of the things you list. Perhaps the
message was addressed to them, and not to you.
>If I received a letter saying, TO BLACK PEOPLE, this weekend there is
>a democratic congregation at ......., I would be just as pissed. The
>letter should say TO DEMOCRATS blah blah blah. The first example
>has implications that black people are all democratics. So when I
>saw a letter saying TO PEOPLE OF COLOR there is a gay march ......
>I became just as upset, for the same reason.
So black people are the only people of color?
You are the one who brought up these generalizations about all black
people. If you don't agree with the message, ignore it. Your opinion
is not the only valid one on this subject.
>Now, I help at an elderly home, speak out for women's rights (which
>should be obvious for any of you who know about the scribe's ramblings),
>mentor, volunteer to teach children as well as African Cultural Enlighten-
>ment, etc. So the argument of you can do other things besides be
>pro-black does not apply to me. Deal with my complaint not my character.
The only thing we know about your character is what you tell us, and I'm
not convinced the source is a reliable one. Your statement above tells
us nothing about the other things you can do if all of the recipients of
your generosity are also black. But there's nothing wrong with that. You
have to decide for yourself how you want to devote your limited personal
resources.
Understand this. There are no degrees of oppression. Black people are
oppressed, and gay people are oppressed. Black gay people are oppressed,
and probably from both sides. There are plenty of gay people, black and
non-black who work to further the cause of civil rights for black people
in this country. And there are plenty of black people, gay and non-gay
who feel that the struggle for gay civil rights is just as important as
their own struggle. These black people are no less black because they
support the struggle of others. None of us is free unless we're all free.
If you choose not to support the struggle of gay people, fine. It's your
choice. But don't condemn the people who have decided to do so. It makes
you look like a selfish twit.
>Scribe
>---------------------------------------------
>Of course these opinions are only mine's......
>Why would this country, private industry, or anything else,
>help uplift Alkebulanians?????
>----------------------------------------------------------
Because it is in our collective best interests, that's why.
| Terry Bartlett terry.b...@Sun.COM | "Gods and their examples
are not needed by those who respect themselves and, consequently, respect
others. Gods are for children, for little fearful people, for those who
would have no responsibility to themselves or their fellows." (72)
Jeff Putnam
>It seems homosexuals have an overwhelmimg need to increase their numbers.
>In this campaign, they see homosexuality in any act, and presumme its
>universal practise without even the courtesy of investigation. This obsession
>has been carried to the world of animals where without a shred of evidence
>they claim to have seen the existence of same sex behavior....
>They take umbrance when ever anyone pronounces that homosexual is non-existence
>in his community. This is the reason for the above, ridculous assertion..
There seem to be people from lots of cultures that now work quite
actively at denying the possibility of homosexuality in their culture.
We've heard (in soc.motss) from the Asians (or was it specifically
chinese?), I've heard several times about Arabs (denying even a
history of male-male erotica), and we are now hearing about Africa.
I lived in Zaire for several years and can assure anyone who is
wondering that there are indeed male homosexual africans (at least
Zairois). My personal experience sexually was rather limited (though
not entirely lacking) while I was there, but I certainly knew of
several gay Zairois males either personally or through people I
trusted.
I wonder just how much of this antipathy toward homosexuality is
derived from European attitudes. Does anyone know what cultural
attitudes toward homosexuality were in Africa before European
colonialization?
--
jefu <=> Jeff Putnam - New Mexico Tech <=> je...@nmt.edu
"Daffodils go Ping! and Oink! // They Really are alarming
I'm scared of big geraniums // And I'm sure that Lilac's harming"
(Dr. Bertram X. Fegg)
Tovah Hollander
>I always find the use the suffix -phobe to be misapplied in the
>above context because those who find the practice of the gay-life
>style disagreeable do not always fear homosexuals...
Mara and I were talking about this the other day, and we decided that
the only real problem with the word "homophobe" is that its natural
opposite ought to be "homophile" which thus ought to apply to _us_.
Except that it doesn't.
(arnold, come back)
--
Tovah Hollander
to...@panix.com -or- to...@onion.salad.mssm.edu
quir...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
> Charlie Fulton <cha...@isis.mit.edu> says:
>>Oh Martina, listen.
>>It is a healthy and good thing for a woman to please her man.
>>If he wishes to view her having sex with another woman, then
>>it is the woman's duty to swallow the repulsion she feels and
>>please her man. It is only a filthy act of the man didn't
>>initiate it.
>>If you weren't such a perfidious pervert, you'd know that.
> Thanks for clearing that up for me, Charlie!! I was a little confused. :-)
> Ooh, why don't we cross-post this on alt.feminism and see what they have to
> say about a "woman's duty." :-)
Archive it, and cross-post it to them next April 1, perhaps ?
(one assumes that soc.motss isn't going to raise objections to *this*
comment ? 8-) )
--
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand. Quir...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."--gene spafford,1992
Nelson Minar
>Mara and I were talking about this the other day, and we decided that
>the only real problem with the word "homophobe" is that its natural
>opposite ought to be "homophile" which thus ought to apply to _us_.
>Except that it doesn't.
Sure it does. It was used that way, several decades ago. "The
homophile movement" - wasn't that one of the early terms used to
describe Mattachine? That'd place it somewhere between "Uranian" and
"queer".
__
nel...@reed.edu \/ How much farther Poppa Smurf? Not far now!
Greg Parkinson
|> It seems homosexuals have an overwhelmimg need to increase their numbers.
This is no less ignorant or hateful than the white people
who think that something "must be done" about those awful
blacks in the ghetto breeding and breeding and breeding,
since all the want to do is rape our women and take our
jobs that they're too lazy to get except through affirmative
action.
Know how that makes you feel? Now you have a clue.
|> In this campaign, they see homosexuality in any act, and presumme its
|> universal practise without even the courtesy of investigation. This obsession
|> has been carried to the world of animals where without a shred of evidence
|> they claim to have seen the existence of same sex behavior....
Again, there is lots of evidence. Saying it isn't
so doesn't change it.
|> They take umbrance when ever anyone pronounces that homosexual is non-existence
|> in his community. This is the reason for the above, ridculous assertion..
And there are lots of people who don't believe that
racism is a problem in the US anymore.
I know gay africans. I know gay and lesbian african-americans.
That you refuse to acknowledge their existance doesn't negate
their existance.
--
Greg Parkinson Phone: 212-657-7814 Fax: 212-657-4599
Citibank,111 Wall Street E-Mail: g...@fig.citib.com
New York, New York 10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
Melvin Gladstone
Best wishes,
Melvin M. Gladstone
PETTERSEN Mike
>It's about time some-one besides myself, stood up on this issue.
>I don't see, white gays writing letters to white people in general
>asking for support for gay-rights.
Huh? What planet do you live on? On my planet, white gays
do this all the time.
> So why do black-gays
>expect all blacks to support them?
Because if it is permitted to categorize people and discriminate against
them on the basis of one characteristic, then that characteristic is
as likely to be skin color as anything else. It is therefore in the
self-interest of black people to support gay rights, as it is for gay
people to support black rights.
>Someone asked me, if there was a march on washington for women's rights
>would I march with them. My answer is yes because I feel strongly
>about the mistreatment of the woman, not because I am black.
May we then infer that the mistreatment of gay people leaves you
indifferent?
--
Mike Pettersen
m...@physique.ens.fr
Perfect love casteth out fear.
Melinda Shore
>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
Strip down to our Birkenstocks and smear lentils all
over each other. Why do you ask?
--
Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - sh...@tc.cornell.edu
Martina Cartwright
How does "none of your f*cking business" sound, Melvin? BTW, I'll assume
for the sake of discussion that you are a heterosexual male, since you
have such an active imagination--and I am sure watch the occassional bit of
porn--you tell me what lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters.....
I'm real curious to find out....
Tim Pierce
>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
They take turns whipping and burning effigies of dumb hetboys. You
ought to try it some time.
--
____ Tim Pierce / ?Usted es la de la tele, eh? !La madre
\ / twpi...@unix.amherst.edu / del asesino! !Ay, que graciosa!
\/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / -- Pedro Almodovar
Makala P Mweene
>>By the way, Makala, you speak of repugnance--aren't you the individual
>>asserting your love "of watching lesbians go at it?" It seems that you
>>can quell your repugnance for a few moments to ENJOY one aspect of the
>>gay community.
>Oh Martina, listen.
Listen, first of all don't be too gullible. And any way attraction to any
individuals of the opposite sex is utterly normal, and infact the only
normal expression of sex... Secondly, there are many times on the other
news group that gay people have misquoted me in order to stir the antipathy
of their already restive constituency. I will give you an example of how
disgusting Africans regard homosexuality. One day I was in a cinema back
home, they showed without warning a scene of one man (Richard Gere) mounted
on the back of another man. The entire audience stood up and walked out.
Subsequently, the movie was pulled due to non attendance...
makala
Makala P Mweene
(Martina Cartwright) writes:
>>In article <93092.134...@auvm.american.edu>
>>Martina Cartwright, MCA...@auvm.american.edu writes:
>>>By the way, Makala, you speak of repugnance--aren't you the individual
>>>asserting your love "of watching lesbians go at it?" It seems that you
>>>can quell your repugnance for a few moments to ENJOY one aspect of the
>>>gay community.
another thing, this is an entirely inappropriate forum for this. Lets take it
back to its approprite news group. I can not recount all the justification
for this here, and hence my hands are tied..
makala
Robert C.Haushalter
Mel, I bet Father O'Hoolihan would know.
--
The opinions are mine..not my company's.
Actually, everything is more complicated
Tim Pierce
>I will give you an example of how
>disgusting Africans regard homosexuality. One day I was in a cinema back
>home, they showed without warning a scene of one man (Richard Gere) mounted
>on the back of another man. The entire audience stood up and walked out.
>Subsequently, the movie was pulled due to non attendance...
Well, that's your problem, then. I don't think I know more than a
handful of self-respecting faggots who could stand to watch Richard
Gere in the nude.
Have they had any Jeff Stryker flicks back home yet?
Roger B.A. Klorese
>In article <C4vwA...@panix.com> to...@panix.com (Tovah Hollander) writes:
>>Mara and I were talking about this the other day, and we decided that
>>the only real problem with the word "homophobe" is that its natural
>>opposite ought to be "homophile" which thus ought to apply to _us_.
>>Except that it doesn't.
>
>Sure it does.
I think the "us" in question, dear heart, is not you&me, but Tovah&Mara.
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rog...@unpc.QueerNet.ORG {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when
you fall, you fly." -- N. Gaiman
Greg Parkinson
>In article <1993Apr2.2...@news.nd.edu> m...@maddog.ece.nd.edu (Melvin Gladstone) writes:
>>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
>Strip down to our Birkenstocks and smear lentils all
>over each other. Why do you ask?
You forgot the part about whining about
the patriarchy.
And what happened to the tofu? Is that just
in California?
--
---------------------------------------------------------
Greg Parkinson New York, New York g...@panix.com
...beauty is convulsive or not at all...
Karina Haavik
>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
They please each other. Next question?
Karina
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karina Haavik ****** kar...@seas.upenn.edu *** Comet #2970
It looks like a boat. It leaks like a boat. It must be a boat.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nelson Minar
>>>"homophile" which thus ought to apply to _us_.
>>>Except that it doesn't.
>>Sure it does.
>I think the "us" in question, dear heart, is not you&me, but Tovah&Mara.
So? "homophile" didn't just refer to homosexuals, but anyone willing
to advocate the cause of polite treatment of homosexuals.
Now, as it is, most of the homophiles I've read about were in fact
homosexual themselves. But part of the magic of the word "homophile"
is that it didn't actually say anything about the sexual orientation
of the person it was applied to.
At least, that's my reading of it. Am I'm completely wrong?
__
nel...@reed.edu \/ All of the freaks are not inside the tents
Martina Cartwright
>
>Listen, first of all don't be too gullible.
Ha, ha, ha (cough, cough) tee hee (giggle) oh ho ho ha ha hee (cough, splutter)
Okay, Makala. Whatever you say..... I mean you know it all.. You're omnipotent.
Bwahahahahahahahahaha... (cough, cough)
>And any way attraction to any individuals of the opposite sex is utterly
>normal,
A few netgroups from here an individual defined "normal" as: regular, standard,
and average. Yeech, sounds BLOODY boring as hell!!
>and in fact the only normal expression of sex...
Okay, your OMNIPOTENCE. I mean you do indeed stand in "your rightness" on all
subject matters... Repent, all you horrid gays and lesbians!! Makala has
spoken.... (crash, thunder roll)
>Secondly, there are many times on the other news group that gay people have
>misquoted me in order to stir the antipathy of their already restive
>constituency.
Hey, Makala, you been taking lessons from KKKramer on how to blame the
homosexuals for your "foot in the mouth" disease?? Or your inability to
compose credible arguments? Or you inability to discuss one subject,
concede and move on? YOU ARE GOING TO BLAME ALL THIS ON THE HOMOSEXUALS
PRESENT ON THE NET??? Let's go one step further..how about them damn
commies on the net..or those stinking tree lovers or how about those animal
rights activist (those guys can really BITE!!) Not to worry, for every mistake
that you make on the NET--I'm sure you'll be able to find some disenfranchised
minority to blame it on!!!!
>I will give you an example of how disgusting Africans regard homosexuality.
>One day I was in a cinema back home, they showed without warning a scene of one
>man (Richard Gere) mounted on the back of another man. The entire audience
>stood up and walked out. Subsequently, the movie was pulled due to non
attendance...
It may have just been that Richard Gere was in it..I've walked out of a
couple of his films.
By the way, Makala, you still haven't explained to me how you can find
the act of homosexuality repugnant and still enjoy watching "lesbians
go at it!" They are engaged in a homosexual act..so how do you keep the
bile down long enough to get to the heterosexual STUFF....
Enquiring minds want to know...
>makala(His Omnipotence)
Martina (meek and humble and happy :-))
Steve Hutchison
+In article <1993Apr2.2...@news.nd.edu> m...@maddog.ece.nd.edu (Melvin Gladstone) writes:
+>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
+Strip down to our Birkenstocks and smear lentils all
+over each other. Why do you ask?
Melinda, you forgot about the sprouts.
And the Celestial Seasonings Herbal Tea afterwards.
Martin J Hannigan
In article <1993Apr2.2...@news.nd.edu> m...@maddog.ece.nd.edu (Melvin Gladstone) writes:
>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
>
I belive it has something to do with their DAC's.
--
Martin J. Hannigan : Boston Computer Society : Systems Manager
Strictly Business : Pentium Powered in May : 617-252-0600
01jw...@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
> What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
Think about it dumbass. Damn, instead of posting here, you should
be out learning the facts of life, virgin.
>
> Best wishes, no bitches,
> Melvin M. Gladstone (Hey? Why do I have this small piece of
> flesh hanging from my body?)
_
/ \___,
##_\__|
\/ :::|
-=======- OO ))
// \\ /_ / \______
L______________||O-----------------\ O_|__/___ \_______
-----------------||||| =========== /\__/ |\
OOOO-L______________ | \
CADET JEFF WITTY --____||||___\< \---------|-\\
ARMY R.O.T.C. |||| -| >
a.k.a. PROUD SOLDIER OF ---- |__/---________/-------
THE US ARMY /__/ "Die Mother Fucker!"
Robert C.Haushalter
>
Shitty, this is your most intelligent post to date. Way to go!
Greg Parkinson
> (Martina Cartwright) writes:
AKA I'm lost, I'm losing, I refuse to talk about
it any more because I'm embarassed.
Mara Chibnik
And don't we look cozy, all cuddled up like that!
--
Mara Chibnik
ma...@panix.com Life is too important to be taken seriously.
Jennifer S Broekman
>>>>By the way, Makala, you speak of repugnance--aren't you the individual
>>>>asserting your love "of watching lesbians go at it?" It seems that you
>>>>can quell your repugnance for a few moments to ENJOY one aspect of the
>>>>gay community.
>another thing, this is an entirely inappropriate forum for this. Lets take it
>back to its approprite news group. I can not recount all the justification
>for this here, and hence my hands are tied..
Why is this an inappropriate forum? What 'justification' can you not recount
in front of queers?
-jenneke
I *am* family. How could I not have family values?
Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy
The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. - Alfred Kinsey
jenneke is: js...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
John Flanagan
>In article <C4tz...@news.Hawaii.Edu>, jo...@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan) writes:
>
>|> Do you intend to turn your back on your sister?
>
>That hurts. I would never turn back on my sisters anywhere. To ignore a queen
>is to ignore God. Yet, that was not my point. It does not matter who or what
>she is, the point I made was in generalizing an opinion to a race of people.
>
>Because we are black does not mean we are pro or anti gay.
Ok, if that's all you were trying to say, you'll get no argument here.
The fact that friends/neutrals/enemies of L/G/B people come in all
shapes, sizes and colors is not news to the readers of soc.motss.
But the next time you feel we need to be reminded that our enemies are
everywhere, consider leaving out the gratuitous gay-bashing fantasies
if you don't want to be taken for one of them.
--John
--
John Flanagan ||
jo...@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu ||
U. of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astro.||
2505 Correa Rd., Honolulu, HI 96822 ||
Blake F Parker
>Gladstone) asks:
<some deletions>
>>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
>They please each other. Next question?
Who Really Cares? What ever they do is their private business.
"To each their own."
Blake F Parker
I must have missed it. Oh well, no great loss.
FJ!!
:If you want to lambast lesbigays from a black homophobe viewpoint, you
:better do your homework on lesbigays and African communities very,
:very carefully, 'cause between us, I've access to a lot more
:information than you do.
Oh yes, let's call it `access'.
Gives a whole new meaning to `accessorize'. Joan Crawford's Wonderful
Life will never read the same.
FJ!!
FJ!!
>And don't we look cozy, all cuddled up like that!
`Tovah&Mara'
I'm starting to think pastry.
FJ!!
mark_b.
In article <C4x96...@unix.amherst.edu> twpi...@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>In article <77...@blue.cis.pitt.edu> pmm...@pitt.edu (Makala P Mweene) writes:
>
>>I will give you an example of how
>>disgusting Africans regard homosexuality. One day I was in a cinema back
>>home, they showed without warning a scene of one man (Richard Gere) mounted
What movie was that from? Son of Flubber or Herbie Goes To
San Francisco? Jeez, Disney has gone downhill.
Mark B.
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
>
> Mara and I were talking about this the other day, and we decided that
> the only real problem with the word "homophobe" is that its natural
> Except that it doesn't.
>
seeing it make a comeback.
-ailsa
Alkebulanian Scribe
|> In article <1pi2js...@rave.larc.nasa.gov>
|> tay...@hojo.larc.nasa.gov (Alkebulanian Scribe) writes:
|>
|> > To ignore a queen is to ignore God.
|>
|> soc.motss are unwelcome and reflect poorly on you.
|>
|> Arne, a queen and God
|>
Then I am sorry Queen.
I will no longer post to soc.motss after this response.
--
Hetep ,
Scribe
---------------------------------------------
Of course these opinions are only mine's......
Why would this country, private industry, or anything else,
help uplift Alkebulanians?????
----------------------------------------------------------
Paul Hastings
>
>Answer me this. DO YOU THINK THAT ALL BLACK PEOPLE AGREE WITH YOUR POSITION
>ON ANYTHING?????!!!!! restated for clarity DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS SOMETHING
>THAT YOU BELIEVE, THAT ALL OTHER BLACKS IN THE WORLD BELIEVE, THAT IS NOT
>RELATED TO BLACKS SOLELY.
>
>I expect not. So why expect all blacks to support any of your nonblack movements?
>If you do not expect all blacks to support your movements then you agree
>with me, and are merely picking an argument for your own pleasure.
Of course not ALL black people agree with any one position. There are
undoubtedly balck people who do not agree with some or all of the actions
thay you take to promote black rights, and consequently human rights.
I know there are gay and lesbian people who do not agree with some or all
of the actions taken by other members of the lesbigay community to promote
their rights, and consequently human rights. However, I also know that
this LACK OF COMPLETE UNANIMITY will not stop me or other gays and lesbians
from whatever efforts we make to assert ourselves as human and deserving
equality, and I hope that it will not stop you from working towards your
deserved position either.
Really, if we wait for concensus on everything we wish to attempt, then
none of us are ever going to get much done. Pursuing the 'big picture'
of working for 'human rights', as you argue would be a more effective
way of bringing you into the MOW fold, we would have to wait for all
humans to support the effort. As anyone who has been at the receiving
end of oppression knows, that's just not going to happen.
So wise up Scribe. If you vocalize support and don't act on it, fine.
If you vocalize and actively support lesbigay and by extension human
rights, fine. If you are against lesbigay rights, fine. But don't
waffle and don't throw out meaningless arguments. We don't have time
for them. If you can post something more substantial in future, I'll
respond again. 'Til then, I'll keep the peace.
Yours in solidarity,
-paul
--
Butch Smurf S6 b++ g l y+ z+ n+ o+ x+ a-u v+ j+
It's a smurf thing; I don't understand.
Paul Hastings
>>>asserting your love "of watching lesbians go at it?" It seems that you
>>>can quell your repugnance for a few moments to ENJOY one aspect of the
>>>gay community.
>
>individuals of the opposite sex is utterly normal, and infact the only
>normal expression of sex...
Which doesn't address the question 'bout liking to watch dykes. However,
at least you, unlike Scribe, are being clear on your position re: gays
and your respect for same. You sound like a total shithead, but at least
you are clearly a shithead.
>Secondly, there are many times on the other
>news group that gay people have misquoted me in order to stir the antipathy
>of their already restive constituency. I will give you an example of how
>disgusting Africans regard homosexuality. (anecdote removed)
As so many others have said already, I too know many African and African-
Canadian (and a few African-American) men who are going to be very upset
to learn that they *have* to regard their sexuality as *disgusting* if
they wish to retain their membership in the African community. FYI,
Makala, hon, daaaaahling, I have NEVER been to a gay club in which there
were *no* black men. Why, Michelle Ross often gets her friends together
for all-black drag shows at Colby's...
Matthew J Brown
> [Tripe]
And so we learn, my friends, why we don't crosspost to alt.flame.
-Morven
--
| Matthew J. Brown | Dept of Computing | If God intended for us to go to |
| m...@doc.ic.ac.uk | Imperial College, | lectures He wouldn't have created |
| M.B...@ic.ac.uk | 180 Queen's Gate | double-sided photocopiers. |
| Morven on Lambda | LONDON SW7 2AZ | -IC RagMag 1991/92 |
crawford,quintal d
> In article <1pfflh...@mizar.usc.edu> adol...@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> >In article <1993Apr1.1...@gallant.apple.com>
> >ric...@gallant.apple.com (a flying squirrel) writes:
> >> bi...@jazz.concert.net (Carter E. Bing) writes:
> >>
(the gay community)
> >> >tries to compare themself to the African community when it
> >> >comes to a history abuse in this country and I think that they
> >> >are two very different issues. I am sure that if you would
> >> >check you could find gay slave owners..
> >>
> >> Yeah, and there are African homophobes. What's your point?
What pisses me off about comparing gays to African-Americans is that
much of the gay white community is just as if not more racist, preju-
diced, elitist than het white culture. I as a African-Native-Irish-
American face far more social and economic prejudice for being black
than for being gay. Period. I wince when I hear tales of white
people whining about how bad it is for them because they're gay
and therefore have lost they're some of the benefits of whiteness
in this prejudiced society. Poor white boy can't be president now?
Tell me another AA story. Aww. Too bad, so sad. What about the
black and red? It's not easy being black and gay because you see
the lies on both sides and that we really should be sticking up
for one another instead of aggrevating an already bad situation.
> >Or is slavery only bad when practiced by
> >those of European descent?
>
> It clearly isn't bad when in the hands of Muslims, since Malcom X not
> only became Muslim but went on Haj to Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia
As I see it, basically Arabs are whites, so the point is moot.
> It is one of those
> curiosities - african americans embracing a religion which, as
> practiced in its holy land, incorporated the slavery
Then clearly you do not have even a basic knowledge of Black
Muslims but feel you can comment on Muslims , Black Muslims, and
African Americans in general. Before you try to put African-
Americans on the defense about gays, you white gays
should look at how your community treats & views Blacks because
therein lies a lot of the hatred you feel coming your way.
Let's get our own house in order first, girls.
To answer you question if somebody else hasn't already:
Not all Muslims are Arabs, and it was the Arabs who
were on the shit-list because they worked with the
whites to enslave us Africans--not all Muslims. The Arabs
were and are major players in the rape of Africa and her
children, but to equate Muslim with Arab leaves out a great
number of believers. In fact, the rift between Blacks
and Arabs was due to Arab racism. The Arabs could not
believe that Allah would speak through the great prophet
Belal (sp?) because he was black!
Your saying it is a 'curiosity' is another example of why
we need an afrocentric (meaning=inclusive) educational
curriculum.
> I'm still curious about how modern american black islam feels about
> the indentured servitude practiced in Saudi Arabia today as they
> exploit South Asian islamic communitites.
>
I'm not a Black Muslim, but it's not just the South Asians who
are being exploited by Arabs and Arab-style Islam--look at
Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea. My Black Muslim friends all deplore
the Arab Muslims who use 'Islam' to do evil to others. I
would be hard pressed, tho, to find *any* Black who loves
Arab culture.
> --
> US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.
Peace,
Quintal
Bjorn E. Loftis
>In article <1pd3gq...@rave.larc.nasa.gov> tay...@hojo.larc.nasa.gov (Alkebulanian Scribe) writes:
>>I am just plain tired of people coming to Alkebulanians with their
>>problems, expecting their assistance just because they have a problem
>>too.
>
>
>You should care about gay rights for the same reason you should
>care about women's rights, Hispanic rights, disabled rights,
>etc etc etc. Civil rights are not a zero-sum game; you're not
>in competition with other people for limited resources. There's
>no reason why EVERYONE can't be treated with respect. As long
>as people think "I'm in minority X so I will only work for
>minority X rights, and to hell with everyone else", it's going
>to be much harder for ANYONE to make progress. You know the
>phrase "divide and conquer"? Keeping different subgroups
>viewing each other as the enemy is an effective way to keep
>them from getting the civil rights they deserve.
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peace if Possible...
BJ
Martin J Hannigan
>
> >What do lesbians do to each other?
>
>They use pickup lines like "my face or yours?"
>
>They go to sex shops and buy double dongs.
>
>They chop off their legs and waddle their stumps across the floor,
>to leave snail tracks for their partner to lick up.
>
>Eeewwww! Gross! Barf out, gag me with a spewwn!
>
>Philip Stromer, Heterosexual and proud of it
Does this stuff really make it over there to soc.motss or is it a censored
....er....moderated conference?
Makala P Mweene
>This is no less ignorant or hateful than the white people
>who think that something "must be done" about those awful
>blacks in the ghetto breeding and breeding and breeding,
>since all the want to do is rape our women and take our
>jobs that they're too lazy to get except through affirmative
>action.
I can not really determine how you perceive any antipathy from me for
gay people. I am indeferent, believing that two adults should do as they
are entitled. I don't care on way or the other, and there is no way gay
people can wring out any more love out of me than they see. The analogy
above is mispent, and certainly cannot be used to define any sentiment
that I have...
>Know how that makes you feel? Now you have a clue.
It seems to me to be a pointer of paranoia. Listen, sodomy is abnormal
and there is no question about it. Should it be allowed? Why not, two
willing adults have the right to do as they want as any one has to wear
bell bottoms....
> I know gay Africans..
You can claim what ever you want... the reason why there are no external
controls to the brain is to allow people to think as they want...
>I know gay African-Americans...
so do I
>Greg Parkinson Phone: 212-657-7814 Fax: 212-657-4599
makala
quir...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
> >What do lesbians do to each other?
> They use pickup lines like "my face or yours?"
> They go to sex shops and buy double dongs.
> They chop off their legs and waddle their stumps across the floor,
> to leave snail tracks for their partner to lick up.
Actually, the ones I know gather together and poke fun at poor brainless
dorks such as yourself. It is gross, but then again they don't seem to pick on
any other dumb animals.
> Eeewwww! Gross! Barf out, gag me with a spewwn!
Sure. I'll wear gloves so the forensics team can't identify me.
> Philip Stromer, Heterosexual and proud of it
Tony Quirke. The same orientation as this geek, and unhappy to say so.
[Followups to alt.flame]
--
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand. Quir...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."--gene spafford,1992
Martina Cartwright
>
>(Steve Dyer) writes:
>
>>Watching lesbians have sex is normal?
>
>I have, with a lot of difficulty, endeavoured to spare the net the
>raunchy details of this "fascination". Put in palatable terms,
>for the material enviroment, what I see are not lesbians but a multi
>plicity of good [black (!!!)] women. Put in other words, having two
>or more instead of one is the same as having more sugar in a solution,ie, It
>can't ever get bitter; it can only get sweeter!! The fire is lit by the
>presence of one and intensified with their increase in number, who they
>are and what they do has nothing to do with it at all.
>
>Put in another way, in a heterosexual scene, I derive no pleasure
>in viewing the males..(as a matter of fact, I am somewhat revolted)
>
>If you insist otherwise, then you have contend with justifying that
>all those who watched and enjoyed "friday the 13-th" are sociopathic
>and inclined to murderous tendencies on a serial/mass murder scale.
>And that those who will watch the movie on Jeffery Dahmer are latent
>homosexual-serial killers...
>
>Finally, lets keep this thread to alt.sex. No matter what else any one
>posts here, I will not respond because I don't think or expect the
>netters to entertain another misapplication of this forum....
>
>makala
>
>
Makala still refuses to justify his love of the homosexual lifestyle--at
least ONE aspect of it!!! You cannot express repugnance and revulsion
for gays..and then turn around and assert your love of "watching women
go at it." They are engaging in a HOMOSEXUAL ACT!!! For the last week,
possibly two, we netters have listened to you lambast gays and lesbians--and
now you drag this tired argument out the closet to explain away your
apparent HYPOCRISY. You are a hypocrite!! Pure and simple..and until such
time as you can establish some logic and consistency in your arguments,
perhaps you should refrain from discussing the issue of homosexuality--
IN ALL IT'S GLORY!!!
This message has been brought to you by.....
John Flanagan
In article <1993Apr3.0...@rmtc.Central.Sun.COM>
bart...@rmtc.Central.Sun.COM (Terry Bartlett) writes:
>
>Understand this. There are no degrees of oppression.
I have to confess that I've never really understood what this is
supposed to mean. It seems clear, to me anyway, that not all people
who are oppressed are oppressed equally.
I can see how the "no degrees of oppression" line might serve as useful
coalition-building propaganda, but I can see how it could also be used
as a coercive argument to downplay the concerns of those who truly are
worse off.
Any political theorists out there who might clarify the party line on
this?
--John
--
John Flanagan ||"I believe in my theories,
jo...@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu || they give me a feeling of
U. of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astro.|| security, and, they inflate
2505 Correa Rd., Honolulu, HI 96822 || my ego enormously" --A. Abian
Tim Pierce
>I am indeferent,
Yeah, we could tell.
--
____ Tim Pierce / ?Usted es la de la tele, eh? !La madre
\ / twpi...@unix.amherst.edu / del asesino! !Ay, que graciosa!
\/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / -- Pedro Almodovar
john dorrance
Joseph Francis
>In article <1993Apr2.0...@spdcc.com>, j...@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis) writes:
>> In article <1pfflh...@mizar.usc.edu> adol...@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>> >In article <1993Apr1.1...@gallant.apple.com>
>> >ric...@gallant.apple.com (a flying squirrel) writes:
>> >> bi...@jazz.concert.net (Carter E. Bing) writes:
>> >>
> (the gay community)
>> >> >tries to compare themself to the African community when it
>> >> >comes to a history abuse in this country and I think that they
>> >> >are two very different issues. I am sure that if you would
>> >> >check you could find gay slave owners..
>> >>
>> >> Yeah, and there are African homophobes. What's your point?
>
>What pisses me off about comparing gays to African-Americans is that
>much of the gay white community is just as if not more racist, preju-
>diced, elitist than het white culture. I as a African-Native-Irish-
No one said that the white lesbigay community is just the most
wonderful thing on earth. It isn't by a long shot. Based on my
experience, however, I find it less prejudiced than het white culture
because it is more egalitarian. Heterosexual culture has as one of its
roots reproductive strategies - that is why it holds on so dearly to
the reins of reproductive advantage (money, opportunity). This doesn't
quite exist for the lesbigay community. All other racial prejudices
being equal, this ethos just isn't a big presence. That's the sole
differenc eI perceive, aside from the fact that in some subgroups of
the lesbigay community, in particular the gay community with 'bears',
I find overt and unconscious racism extraordinarily absent. I'm white.
I could be very wrong, but I'm fairly good at analysing situations.
>> It clearly isn't bad when in the hands of Muslims, since Malcom X not
>> only became Muslim but went on Haj to Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia
>
>As I see it, basically Arabs are whites, so the point is moot.
BZZZ: Try again. You've probably not visited Africa, or the Arabian
peninsula. I've worked in Saudi Arabia, and let me assure you, there
are plenty of Black Arabs. Furthermore, there are Black Egyptians
(Anwar Sadat ring a bell?) Black Algerians, etc. Secondarily, black
scholars which have tried to find evidence of the naissance of Greek
culture in Egypt and Ethiopia inevitably point out that Cleopatra was
black, and so on. You may find Arabs white. I've been there, seen them,
and worked with them. They're a broad mixture.
Secondarily, of all cultures perpetuating indentured servitude Islam
is one I find the most rife. I won't talk about Sudanese slave trades:
I'll speak of Filipino, Yemeni, and Egyptian servitude enforced in
North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula by rich Muslims. Been there.
Seen it. Had people brag about it.
>To answer you question if somebody else hasn't already:
>Not all Muslims are Arabs, and it was the Arabs who
>were on the shit-list because they worked with the
>whites to enslave us Africans--not all Muslims.
I've lived and worked within several Muslim cultures: Indonesia,
Malaysia, and Saudi Arabia. I've lived with Palestinians, Saudi
Arabians, Yemenis, Iraqis, Southern Phillipine muslim separatists,
Malaysians, and Egyptians. I should probably tell you, if somebody
else hasn't already: most muslims aren't Arabs. I'll give you another
clue, too. I have an excellent idea of what muslim men do sexually,
and what they say.
>The Arabs
>were and are major players in the rape of Africa and her
>children, but to equate Muslim with Arab leaves out a great
>number of believers. In fact, the rift between Blacks
>and Arabs was due to Arab racism. The Arabs could not
>believe that Allah would speak through the great prophet
>Belal (sp?) because he was black!
This would be interesting if it were true, but it isn't quite true.
The 'rape' of africa was perpetuated mostly by European colonialism
and greed on the part of both Europeans and dominant African cultures.
Arabs were of marginal impact until world war II, when the Arabian
peninsula and Northern Africa became strategic beyond the wildest
hopes of the nomadic sheikhs.
If you take the time to read about it, the internal slave-trade routes
in africa were well established long before European traders started
putting souls in their contracts.
>Your saying it is a 'curiosity' is another example of why
>we need an afrocentric (meaning=inclusive) educational
>curriculum.
I've always thought that school curricula were deficient in a number
of ways, a good example of which is the lack of material on
influential black figures; this of course stems from a long lack of
major academic examination and analysis of black/African cultures, and
in turn the propagation of the cultures through time. Access to Nordic
mythology, for instance, is quite easy, but imagine trying to find a
concise intelligent Bulfinch-style book for children on Burundi
mythology. Anyway, this isn't the issue.
>> I'm still curious about how modern american black islam feels about
>> the indentured servitude practiced in Saudi Arabia today as they
>> exploit South Asian islamic communitites.
>>
>I'm not a Black Muslim, but it's not just the South Asians who
>are being exploited by Arabs and Arab-style Islam--look at
>Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea. My Black Muslim friends all deplore
>the Arab Muslims who use 'Islam' to do evil to others. I
>would be hard pressed, tho, to find *any* Black who loves
>Arab culture.
If you write a letter to the United Nations Information Agency (I
think that's what it would be in English)a, and ask for a copy of their
papers on The Current State of Involuntary Servitude in the World,
you'll get some eye-openers on India, Bangladesh, SouthEast Asia,
Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Ethiopia, with cursory glances at areas
which have not undergone modern land reform and still have tenant
farming (Southern US, British Isles, etc.) It will reinforce some of
your points, and also establish a few of mine.
All parties involved are culpable, except for those presed into
servitude. Africa is no magical continent of Black racial harmony,
even the most naive person who is marginally aware of African politics
(and I'm not speaking of those manipulated by the former USSR and the
current US) should know this. Almost all cultures have practiced
slavery; it was the usual aftermath of war. Black Africans enslaved
Black Africans, White Europeans enslaved White Europeans. Neither one
foisted it upon the other.
The original arguments stemmed from extremely homophobic and frankly
biologically ignorant responses to an 'open letter' from the lesbigay
community asking for support in the March on Washington. The
respondants seemed particularly unaware of the fact that a not
inconsequential number of people who marched in the original event,
for Civil rights, were white, and that many of them were, in fact,
people who would later find the strength to face the social injustice
they faced when they realized they were lesbian, bi, or gay in the
courage which American Blacks first showed in their struggles. Many of
the whites in the first march later became leaders in the first
struggles for lesbigay rights. African-Americans can justifiably claim
that they suffer indignities at the hands of the lesbigay community as
well as any other community; The lesbigay community, as hinted at in
some of these postings, can reasonably also claim indignities and
prejudice on teh part of the African-American community. We've
achieved a zero-sum solution for civil rights since we're now simply
thrashing over dividing up a meagre pie of civil rights legislation.
My usual post on MOTSS and civil rights has to do with enacting
legislation which specifies that all Americans should be guaranteed
necessities of life (housing, access to communication, access to
capital, food, medical care, clothing, etc.) period; that the sole
determinant of aptitude for a particular job should be skill and
performance; and so on. I don't believe the MOW is about this, yet I
support the idea of the march. African-American participants in the
march, of any sexual orientation, may not benefit directly by the
legislation it supports. Neither will they be harmed, and the more
there is a show of support against the sink-or-swim policies of the
American right I think the less there will be a feeling of a mandate
for rolling back of any and all civil rights legislation to meet the
approval of their perceived constituency. It is the generality of a
minority cohesion against failed politics (an era of Republicanism)
which marches like this work with, rather than the specifics of
platforms (universal marriage rights for same-sex couples, cf.).
That's politics. Not 'genetic heterosexuality'.
Chris Chin
>sh...@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>
>+In article <1993Apr2.2...@news.nd.edu> m...@maddog.ece.nd.edu (Melvin Gladstone) writes:
>+>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
>
>+Strip down to our Birkenstocks and smear lentils all
>+over each other. Why do you ask?
>
>Melinda, you forgot about the sprouts.
>
>And the Celestial Seasonings Herbal Tea afterwards.
Other recognized options:
--cut each other's head hair real short and braid their armpit hair;
--smear motorcycle grease on each other and writhe in ecstasy on a garage
floor;
--attend naked therapy classes;
--make pottery while singing folksongs on a muddy hillside in Michigan;
--take turns wielding icepicks at mealy-mouthed hetboys;
--use quartz crystal newage dildos on each other under a full moon while
dressed in flowing cotton garments (unbleached, natch) in recognition of
the Mother Goddess who surely has better things to do with her time than
worry about stupid questions about what lesbians do in bed...
*Chris, with some help from his lesbian friends, and much merriment was
had by all*
______
Chris Chin / love + pride + strength + unity = freedom
Pupil Smurf / S5/8 b? g+ l y/ z(+) n++ o-/+ x(+) a u v+ j+/++
\/ hcc...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca
Robert C.Haushalter
>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
Mel, you seem to have craeted created quite astir with your question.
Please answer this question and remember: the priests do not want you to
lie.
Do you have any homosexual urges that you're not telling us about . . .
now be honest . . . what are your feeling toward Father O'Hoolihan??
Are they totally "benign"? Honesty is the best policy.
The truth shall set you free.
Robert Hansen
>In article <C4x2I...@ibeam.intel.com> hu...@ibeam.intel.com (Steve Hutchison) writes:
>>sh...@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>>
>>+In article <1993Apr2.2...@news.nd.edu> m...@maddog.ece.nd.edu (Melvin Gladstone) writes:
>>+>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
>Other recognized options:
>--make pottery while singing folksongs on a muddy hillside in Michigan;
Hey - I thought that was on the agenda for the last Radical Fairie
gathering...
ROBERT HANSEN - Oregon Health Sciences University - Portland Oregon USA
- - - - - - - - - -
"I think we'd know normal if we saw it." - Calvin and Hobbes
Sim Aberson
>Other recognized options:
>--smear motorcycle grease on each other and writhe in ecstasy on a garage
>floor;
Our own George? A lesbian?
Sim Aberson Ft. Lauderdale, FL abe...@ocean.dnet.nasa.gov
Washington DC 50-YR AVERAGES April 25 High: 69F Low: 49F
65% cloud cover 33% chance of rain, about 0.32 inches falling, no snow or ice
10% chance of thunder 50% daytime relative humidity Winds: S 10.5 kt
Mick Washbrook
>
> >What do lesbians do to each other?
> [drivel deleted]
> Philip Stromer, Heterosexual and proud of it
And an absolute credit to your orientation too, darlin'.
--
Lefty
>
> >What do lesbians do to each other?
>
> They go to sex shops and buy double dongs.
> They chop off their legs and waddle their stumps across the floor,
> to leave snail tracks for their partner to lick up.
and then signs his work, thusly:
> Philip Stromer, Heterosexual and proud of it
Heterosexual? Surely this is pure speculation on your part, Peewee.
Unless, of course, you imagine that applying some "Johnson's Baby Magic" to
your hand somehow makes it a member of the opposite sex.
--
Lefty (le...@apple.com)
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
Makala P Mweene
(Martina Cartwright) writes:
>
>Makala still refuses to justify his love of the homosexual lifestyle--at
>least ONE aspect of it!!!
This goes down to the same observation I posted a while ago, that in a des
parate bid to improve their numbers, they are beginning to see gays in all
sorts of places...
> You cannot express repugnance and revulsion
>for gays..and then turn around and assert your love of "watching women
>go at it."
The last there words in the quotes are irrelevant. I plead guilty to the first two. And, I am sure, so does every normal man. I will restate this for your
edification, what the women are doing is irrelevant as long they are alive
(lest you accuse me of necrophilia also!!!).. I love watching women, and yes
even if they are gay. What I think of is what we can do together, not what
they choose to do....got it Mama Martina..?? Good.
>They are engaging in a HOMOSEXUAL ACT!!!
Totally and utterly unimportant. I only see women. Period.
> For the last week,
>possibly two, we netters have listened to you lambast gays and lesbians--
Don't make statements like this Martina. I have never lambasted gays or
lesnians. I believe passionately that two adults have the right to do
what ever they want. They should keep it in their bedroom. Believe me,
in public I treat my girlfriend as if she is my sister. That way I respect
her, myself and the public. What I say is that the gay life style is not
normal. It is no more niormal to be gay than it is for a person to want
his tongue pierced. Neither one should be criminalised, and depending on the
spectator it may even be entertaining. ....... The only thing I have said is
that now there are no gays in Africa. At the risk of contradicting myself,
I will tell you that infact in the major urban areas, and places where
there have been either europeans or Arabs, people know of boys, usually
house servants and alter boys, who are sodomised by foreigners. In that
way, yes, foreigners might use these vulnerable boys for sodomy....
This is the truth as it stands. I have never ever said that the gay cu
lture will never take root in Africa. Infact it will, Africand being
more impressionable and gullible than you think....
>and
>now you drag this tired argument out the closet to explain away your
>apparent HYPOCRISY. You are a hypocrite!! Pure and simple..
A drowning [wo]man will clutch at a straw. True in word as it is
indeed. I hope you do not feel that you know me better than I know
myself.. There is no hypocrisy in men loving women Martina. This is
what explainds the presence of all humans including your self on this
planet... I love women, Martina, including gay ones. What they do is
no buisness of mine, what we can do together is what I am interested
in. I hope that this concept of a man being "addicted" to naked women
does not confuse you my dear. In the normal world, this is the norm
and there are no exceptions.....
>and until such
>time as you can establish some logic and consistency in your arguments,
>perhaps you should refrain from discussing the issue of homosexuality--
My argument is consistent:
homosexuality is:
1) abnormal
2) the buisness of it practitioners
3) devoid among Africans, except where they have mingled with Arabs or Europeans
All [black] women:
1) I love
2) numberr and activities being irrelevant,
3) and yes even if they are gay....
because a woman is a woman...
>IN ALL IT'S GLORY!!!
There is no glory in homosexuality.. Martina.
>This message has been brought to you by.....
Makala
Mike Drayton
> --smear motorcycle grease on each other and writhe in ecstasy on a garage
> floor;
Are such people known as lesbears?
Mike Drayton mdra...@sr.hp.com Hewlett-Packard Co.
Santa Rosa, California
Greg Parkinson
The new Prince Girls? Silly makeup
and hats and playing keyboards while
vamping at the camera?
--
Greg Parkinson Phone: 212-657-7814 Fax: 212-657-4599
Citibank,111 Wall Street E-Mail: g...@fig.citib.com
New York, New York 10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
Melvin Gladstone
>twpi...@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>>m...@maddog.ece.nd.edu (Melvin Gladstone) writes:
>>
>>>What do lesbians do to each other in sexual encounters?
>>
>>They take turns whipping and burning effigies of dumb hetboys. You
>>ought to try it some time.
>
>I resent that. I punch back at lesbos.
>
>ANOTHER Pink Boy testing the water in alt.flame. Every time one of these
>fuckers get flamed they run to the syadmin. Well here goes: FUCKING FAGGOT.
>Stay in alt.bung.boy and whine to other FF's.
>
>Okay. Anymore FF's out there who want a shot let's do it. I'll drive you
>weewees to the sysadmin in 2 posts. FF's.
>
>Martin J. Hannigan : Boston Computer Society : Systems Manager
Since you're my friend, I will give some free advice. First, your
response sounds bitter, like you had a twisted face while you wrote
it. This is not good because it gives great satisfaction to those
who would like to see you irritated. Never let them see you sweat
in alt.flame.
Also, you took soc.motss out of the newsgroups. This hostile Tim guy
will never respond to it; very unrewarding.
Finally, we both know you're not a bigot, but flaming an entire group
tends to dull the effect, especially if it smacks of redneck.
Best wishes,
Melvin M. Gladstone
Nick Fitch
> --smear motorcycle grease on each other and writhe in ecstasy on a garage
> floor;
This is very unbecoming behaviour for a graduate of Sappho's school. I
thought Lesbians were supposed to write poetry and sing to each other.
--Nick (The Classical Greek geek)
*****************************************************************
* OFFICIAL SIGNATURE * STANDARD DISCLAIMER: *
* CALIFORNIAN ILLUMINATI * Who am I? Where am I? *
* YO! EWIGE BLUMENKRAFT, DUDE!* Who are all these people? *
******************************* *
* s5/7 b g(-) l y- z- o a(+) u+ v-- j+/++ *
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* W.A.S.T.E *
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a flying squirrel
>you white gays
>should look at how your community treats & views Blacks because
>therein lies a lot of the hatred you feel coming your way.
>Let's get our own house in order first, girls.
Do let's. Your generalizations aren't helping. "You white gays"
sounds as bad as Perot's "you people".
This dialogue reminds me of a discussion I had with the head of
human resources at Apple in Europe prior to a final decision being
made about hiring me in Paris. Essentially, they want to find out
how you are going to cope with the cultural transition; they were
especially concerned in my case, because I was moving over alone and
had no family to retreat to. The person I was interviewing with, a
French woman, stated that "a passport can be issued to any asshole.
I have met French assholes, American assholes, Italian assholes, etc.
If you have the unfortunate experience to only visit Spain for a day,
and each person you meet there is in a bad mood, you will be tempted
to conclude that all Spaniards are assholes, which is absurd."
As many readers know, I had a hell of good time living in Paris. Met
a lot of assholes, too. Most were American.
--
a flying squirrel is: ric...@ecureuil.apple.com Apple Computer, Inc.
If one flys down the ILS inverted, does the localizer needle reverse sense?
a flying squirrel
>Our own George? A lesbian?
It would certainly explain his sense of humour.
Matthew Melmon
wrote:
> Take it back far enough carter. In Egyptian history there are numerous
> instances of polygamy, and even of heterosexual incest, none of homo
> sexuality.
As an amusing aside, a technically very cool Jackson video shows
the Pharoah and Bride as black. Is this nonsense really being
taken seriously in the African-American community? The Egyptians
were Egyptian. The Egyptians living there now are the same as
the one's living there five thousand years ago. It's all very
good to extoll the virtues of African culture, but is it really
necessary to hijack someone else's civilization?
Anyway, I am skeptical there are "no instances of homosexuality"
in ancient Egypt. Arab societies (and again, Egypt is a hell of
a lot more Egyptian/Arabic than it is 'African') are male
dominated to such a degree that men are usually more intimate
- so far as talking/associating/socializing - with other men than
they are with their wives.
Knowing people who have spent extensive time in the Middle East,
but not actually having done so myself, I can only say that I
_suspect_ 'homo sex' is not unheard of - though I'm sure it isn't
something that gets paraded around. But then, neither is hetero
sex. The punishment, of course, being death and all may have
something to do with this lack of visibility.
I did live in Japan for several months, and there I can definitely
say that male-male intimacy is common. High school boys walk to
school arm in arm, and socialize almost exclusively with each
other. This uproar over FBoW would *never* occur in Japan. Indeed,
the "comic" industry (manga) is another world compared to that
of the United States. Male-male sex, while not "common", does have
entire strips devoted to it (which may be purchased at any large
train station), and it occurs, or references to it occur, throughout
innumerable other manga books.
"The West" is by no means the only practitioner of 'homo sex.'
And let's say that Japan, the United States, and Europe
*were* the only nations where homosexuality was practiced.
Japan, the United States, and Europe happen to be the cream
of the industrialized crop. Maybe they're (we're) onto
something...
*X*
(and speaking of fags in the military, neither Greece nor Rome
seemed to have had much trouble conquering the world - and
it was *Europeans* who sacked Rome, not mighty heterosexuals
from that other continent)
Matthew Melmon
> I'm still curious about how modern american black islam feels about
> the indentured servitude practiced in Saudi Arabia today as they
> exploit South Asian islamic communitites.
You are being _awfully_ polite. How about:
I'm still curious about how modern american black islam feels
about the purchase of South Asian girls for use as sex dolls.
*X*
Matthew Melmon
va...@donner.cc.bellcore.com (crawford,quintal d) wrote:
> To answer you question if somebody else hasn't already:
> Not all Muslims are Arabs, and it was the Arabs who
> were on the shit-list because they worked with the
> whites to enslave us Africans--not all Muslims. The Arabs
> were and are major players in the rape of Africa and her
> children, but to equate Muslim with Arab leaves out a great
> number of believers.
As has been pointed out before, the _transportation_ of slaves
is the handiwork of non-Africans. The capture of the slaves,
however, falls completely and utterly upon the shoulders of
strong black tribes, who sold members of weaker tribes to
colonialists for profit. European power was principally
naval. "Whites" _could not_ have penetrated deeply enough into
Africa to fuel the slave trade. They could only pick up
slaves brought to the coastal cities _by blacks_.
Slavery has been rampant in Africa for millenia. I think it
grimly funny that black African-Americans have advanced some
bizarre theory - based on what I can't even imagine - that
the ancient Egyptians were black Africans (I have yet to
hear how the current Egyptians came into possession of that
nation, under this particular theory). What is amusing about
this hijacking is the fact that the Egyptians were _masters_
of slavery. It is a *little* ironic that a people who talk
first and foremost about the horrible wrong done them would
claim Egypt as a part of their cultural heritage.
*X*
(there were, of course, a great many blacks in Egypt. The Nubians,
first and foremost. Many of these were there as _slaves_. Well
before the white, homosexual powers of Greece and Rome rose to
power)
Matthew Melmon
ric...@gallant.apple.com (a flying squirrel) wrote:
> As many readers know, I had a hell of good time living in Paris. Met
> a lot of assholes, too.
I'm sure you did more than meet them. Tell me, darling, do assholes
stare? Gaylon and Bop have joined forces (yes, yes - it is to know
fear to sit on the opposite side of the table from Bop and Gaylon)
against me on this point. I think assholes make for wonderful
cyclopean metaphors. Being blinded with long poles, and all.
*X*
Jay Prince
>And that those who will watch the movie on Jeffery Dahmer are latent
>homosexual-serial killers...
>
> makala
Make no mistake: Jeffery Dahmer is not a homosexual-serial killer! He is
a Serial Homosexual killer!
I find it a great ironic tragedy that the fools in the (liberal, my ass)
media get away with portraying this guy as an example of how demented
homosexuals are, rather than exposing him for what he is: What society
has created with homophobic propaganda.... and which they are continuing
to propagate.
Jeffry Dahmer is a hate monger.