Domestic chores still 'women's work'
connor_a
because they still bear the brunt of domestic chores."
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8684239%255E421,00.html
Translation of MANipulation: strong men work fulltime in the most
dangerous jobs you can find leaving weak women to work part time and
bitch about how bad they have it.
Grizzlie Antagonist
Actually, it's even worse than that, since, in addition to working
full-time, men do many tasks around the household that are never even
factored into studies such as this.
Warren Farrell and Glenn Sacks did their own study of studies that
entirely discounted men's contributions to household labor in order to
manufacture tales of female woe - it grieves me deeply to say anything
positive about a dish of skim milk like Glenn Sacks, but I suppose
that I have to give credit where credit is due.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
grizzliea...@yahoo.com
"Ladies and gentlemen - let's have a round of applause for tonight's player of the game - AL-BERT-O CAS-S-S-S-S-S--S-S-TILLO!"
- P.A. announcer at Grizzlie Stadium, July 4, 2003
"The Germans are like women; you can scarcely fathom their depths -- they haven't any." - Freidrich Nietzsche
"No men who really think deeply about women retain a high opinion of them; men either despise women or they
have never thought seriously about them. As children, imbeciles and criminals would be justly prevented from
taking any part in public affairs even if they were numerically equal or in the majority; woman must in the
same way be kept from having a share in anything which concerns the public welfare." -- Otto Weininger
"There is nothing in the world like the devotion of a married woman. It is a thing no married man knows anything about." - Oscar Wilde
Bob
> "AUSTRALIAN women are struggling to balance work and family life
> because they still bear the brunt of domestic chores."
And men still bear the brunt of building the house, cars, roads,
shopping malls, dishwashers, etc.
No problem mate.
Bob
>
> http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8684239%255E421,00.html
>
> Translation of MANipulation: strong men work fulltime in the most
> dangerous jobs you can find leaving weak women to work part time and
> bitch about how bad they have it.
--
When did we divide into sides?
"As president, I will put American government and our legal system back
on the side of women." John Kerry, leading Democratic candidate for
President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/
Rev. 11D Meow!
"connor_a" <conn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6688b088.04021...@posting.google.com...
Hyerdahl1
>From: conn...@hotmail.com (connor_a)
>Date: 2/14/2004 5:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6688b088.04021...@posting.google.com>
The Australian women don't seem to be BUYING, connor. Here's a blurb showing
that women from OZ are going their own way.
WSWS : News & Analysis : Australia & South Pacific
Census reports highlight dramatic social changes in Australia
By Dragan Stankovic
24 October 2002
Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author
Reports from the 2001 census of Australia give a picture of far-reaching
changes in social and family life over the past three decades. Fewer people
than ever are marrying, while more are divorcing; childlessness has increased;
and the number of people living alone has risen.... But none of the reports, or
the media commentary on them, have probed these questions. Instead, the
official debate has focussed on lifting the “fertility rate,” that is, on
how to induce or encourage women to have more children for the sake of the
national economy. :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
Each colony is a family unit, comprising a single egg-laying female ...The
workers cooperate in the food gathering, nest building and rearing offspring.
Males are reared only at times of year when their presence is required.
(Secret Life of Bees)
connor_a
> The Australian women don't seem to be BUYING, connor. Here's a blurb showing
> that women from OZ are going their own way.
>
And taking the whole civilisation back to spear throwing matriachy in
the process. Its no co-incidence that men are flying planes into
buildings and destroying the culture that no longer views men as equal
rather than inferior human beings.
Hyerdahl1
>From: Bob boby...@hotmail.com
>Date: 2/14/2004 7:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <402EDFD4...@hotmail.com>
>
>connor_a wrote:
>> "AUSTRALIAN women are struggling to balance work and family life
>> because they still bear the brunt of domestic chores."
>
>And men still bear the brunt of building the house, cars, roads,
>shopping malls, dishwashers, etc.
>
>No problem mate.
Apparently, there is a problem, Bob, since Australian women can work outside
the home and call their own shots, but the problem is for Australian men:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/indepth/featureitems/s421962.htm
Life on the land can prove lonely.
Finding love in the outback isn't easy if you're a bloke. There just aren't
enough women.
But the National Farmers Federation is about to join hands with a women's
magazine, aiming to find wives for lonely farmers.
The problem was clear when a group of young farmers from around Australia met
for a forum in Canberra two months ago. Many of them had one thing in common -
young blokes on the land often couldn't find suitable brides...
"Some [farmers] are saying that increasingly as young women tend to have
careers, that they do meet some lovely young women and unfortunately these
girls do not want to move back to rural areas, but they want to continue with
their career," Ms Dent said.
>
>Bob
>
>
>
>
>>
>> http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8684239%255E421,00.html
>>
>> Translation of MANipulation: strong men work fulltime in the most
>> dangerous jobs you can find leaving weak women to work part time and
>> bitch about how bad they have it.
>
>
>
>--
>
>When did we divide into sides?
>
>"As president, I will put American government and our legal system back
>on the side of women." John Kerry, leading Democratic candidate for
>President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Bob
>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>From: Bob boby...@hotmail.com
>>Date: 2/14/2004 7:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <402EDFD4...@hotmail.com>
>>
>>connor_a wrote:
>>
>>>"AUSTRALIAN women are struggling to balance work and family life
>>>because they still bear the brunt of domestic chores."
>>
>>And men still bear the brunt of building the house, cars, roads,
>>shopping malls, dishwashers, etc.
>>
>>No problem mate.
>
>
> Apparently, there is a problem, Bob, since Australian women can work outside
> the home and call their own shots, but the problem is for Australian men:
Go fuck yourself bitch.
--
When did we divide into sides?
"As president, I will put American government and our legal system back
on the side of women." John Kerry, leading Democratic candidate for
President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/
[Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All
posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.]
connor_a
> >And men still bear the brunt of building the house, cars, roads,
> >shopping malls, dishwashers, etc.
> >
> >No problem mate.
>
> Apparently, there is a problem, Bob, since Australian women can work outside
> the home and call their own shots, but the problem is for Australian men:
>
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/indepth/featureitems/s421962.htm
So women aren't contributing their EQ share on the land after all,
gooood one feminist herydahl.
Raul
> The Australian women don't seem to be BUYING, connor. Here's a blurb showing
> that women from OZ are going their own way.
>
> WSWS : News & Analysis : Australia & South Pacific
>
> Census reports highlight dramatic social changes in Australia
> By Dragan Stankovic
> 24 October 2002
> Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author
>
> Reports from the 2001 census of Australia give a picture of far-reaching
> changes in social and family life over the past three decades. Fewer people
> than ever are marrying, while more are divorcing; childlessness has increased;
> and the number of people living alone has risen.... But none of the reports, or
> the media commentary on them, have probed these questions. Instead, the
> official debate has focussed on lifting the “fertility rate,” that is, on
> how to induce or encourage women to have more children for the sake of the
> national economy. :-)
That's lovely. Women wanting sex without commitment is a blessing for
men. In the meantime, white aussies will become a minority and
immigrants from Asian patriarchies, like myself, will take over.
Hyerdahl1
>Date: 2/15/2004 5:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6688b088.04021...@posting.google.com>
What RIGHTS don't men have? Are you complaining that women are simply making
better choices about their own lives and don't buy Prince Controlling stories?
connor_a
> >
> >And taking the whole civilisation back to spear throwing matriachy in>the
> process. Its no co-incidence that men are flying planes into>buildings and
> destroying the culture that no longer views men as equal
> >rather than inferior human beings.
> >
> What RIGHTS don't men have? Are you complaining that women are simply making
> better choices about their own lives and don't buy Prince Controlling stories?
>
Get in touch with yur masculine side Herydal , since then womens lives
will be EQUAL to mens.
Or are you just being a protect me! pink sexist as usual,.
Sean_MacCloud
>
> What RIGHTS don't men have?
It is obvious that there are special privileges the females get in
many or most sectors of society. I'm not going to debate that with you
you idiot or liar.
>Are you complaining that women are simply making
> better choices about their own lives
When men "make better choices about their own lives" it is called
crime. Or at least exploitive selfishness.
> and don't buy Prince Controlling stories?
"Prince controlling stories"... Here's one for you: there is no such
thing as equal-- the men control the females or the females control
the men, period. Anything else is lie or delusion. Therefore "not
buying prince stories" is irrelevent-- control is simply imposed;
"buying it"(falling for it) has nothing to do with it.
And further the women are not "simply making better choices". They are
pandered to benefactors, getting unconstituional privileges in a huge
boss tweed(political) gimick called democracy.
Raul
> >Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
> >From: conn...@hotmail.com (connor_a)
> >Date: 2/15/2004 5:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <6688b088.04021...@posting.google.com>
> >
> >hyer...@aol.com (Hyerdahl1) wrote in message
> >news:<20040215125443...@mb-m22.aol.com>...
>
> >> The Australian women don't seem to be BUYING, connor. Here's a blurb
> showing>> that women from OZ are going their own way.
> >>
> >
> >And taking the whole civilisation back to spear throwing matriachy in>the
> process. Its no co-incidence that men are flying planes into>buildings and
> destroying the culture that no longer views men as equal
> >rather than inferior human beings.
> >
> What RIGHTS don't men have? Are you complaining that women are simply making
> better choices about their own lives and don't buy Prince Controlling stories
Why didn't you just post this in the original thread? I see you've
erased your quote about white oz women's efforts to make Australia
more asian.
Connor, prehistoric matriarchies are feminist fantasies.
Grizzlie Antagonist
Hyerdahl1
>Date: 2/17/2004 6:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <ecb96eed.04021...@posting.google.com>
>
>hyer...@aol.com (Hyerdahl1) wrote in message
>news:<20040215125443...@mb-m22.aol.com>...
>> The Australian women don't seem to be BUYING, connor. Here's a blurb
>showing>> that women from OZ are going their own way.
>>
>> WSWS : News & Analysis : Australia & South Pacific
>>
>> Census reports highlight dramatic social changes in Australia
>> By Dragan Stankovic
>> 24 October 2002
>> Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author
>>
>> Reports from the 2001 census of Australia give a picture of far-reaching
changes in social and family life over the past three decades. Fewer people
than ever are marrying, while more are divorcing; childlessness has>increased;
>> and the number of people living alone has risen.... But none of the
>reports, or> the media commentary on them, have probed these questions.
Instead, the> official debate has focussed on lifting the “fertility rate,”
that is, on
> how to induce or encourage women to have more children for the sake of the
>> national economy. :-)
>
>That's lovely. Women wanting sex without commitment is a blessing for
>men.
Where did I use the word "blessing" and why do you think women have a duty to
"bless" men?
In the meantime, white aussies will become a minority and immigrants from
Asian patriarchies, like myself, will take over.
I'm not concerned about Asians at all, dear; your women are also going awol.
:-)
Here's a few cites that might interest you:
Lesbian feminism in Japan
http://plaza28.mbn.or.jp/~dyke/lesfemi.welcome.html
Feminist history in Japan
http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue9/germer.html
Here's something interesting:
http://www.genders.org/g36/g36_ebihara.html
Genders 36 2002
Japan's Feminist Fabulation
Reading Marginal with Unisex Reproduction as a Key Concept
by AKIKO EBIHARA
[1] Genres of expression favored by female authors in Japan such as science
fiction and manga (graphic novel) have long been classified as subcategories of
so-called subculture with labels like girls' manga and female sci-fi writing.
From the sheer number and variety of works penned by female creators in these
fields that touch on the theme of reproduction, a topic rarely seen in
"mainstream" male literature, one can see how painfully important this subject
has been to women. In particular, we see in their creations repeated attempts
at the frank re-representation of sex - often a male-led activity - and its
consequence, childbearing, from the woman's own point of view, as well as the
deconstruction of traditional outlooks on sex and childbearing through wildly
imaginative fantasy novels. In the USA, Gilman wrote Herland in 1915, a tale
centered around the theme of parthenogenesis, and the 1960s and 70s saw a
golden age of female science fiction writing. The talents of authors such as
Ursula le Guin, James Tiptree Jr., Joanna Russ, Octavia Butler and Suzy Mckee
Charnas put "serious literature" writers in the shade, producing works that
went beyond conventional science fiction territory and establishing a new genre
of writing called speculative fiction. Their works, to put it simply, were
experiments in a Copernican revolution over women's role in society. Marlene S.
Barr calls these feminist-themed sci-fi novels by female authors a form of
"feminist fabulation" (Barr) . These novels ("experimental fables", as Mari
Kotani, Japan's leading critic of sci-fi writing, puts it) used an experimental
framework to show that the concept of reality realist writing had been treating
as fact was merely a patriarchal reality based on Western monism or centrism
(any system of oppression, be it capitalism, monotheism based on original sin,
patriarchy, logos-centrism or monarchy). These novels were enthusiastically
welcomed by women in Japan.
[2] Many of Japan's monumental works in science fiction are from girls'
manga. Part of the reason for this is the fact that science fiction writing has
long been integrated into the male-dominated Japanese literary hierarchy which
largely denied women entry, but another problem was readers' rejection of
science fiction by female writers. The idea of science fiction writing being a
male preserve (even though the readership included women as well as men) was
not unique to Japan's literary society, but because Japan had girls' manga,
which already enjoyed a huge following and was ready to receive something new,
female sci-fi creators did not have to knock their heads against the brick wall
that was the exclusive club of science fiction literature. Girls' manga
creators who had been churning out sweet and innocent love stories for romantic
girls suddenly started producing science fiction manga. The first to break into
this new genre was Moto Hagio. Her early works mostly centered around the idea
of as a boy's dream of space, typified by her adaptation of Ray Bradbury
stories, but as she established her popularity and matured as a woman, her
science fiction started to evolve into speculative fiction. Staa Reddo (Star
Red) was the story of a conflict between male and female principles, and in her
next offering, Maajinaru (Marginal) she developed this thesis into a more
fundamental, species-level question: the root of maternity. This paper will
examine Marginal by Moto Hagio using unisex reproduction as a keyconcept and
consider how girls' sci-fi manga reflected Japanese women's views and thoughts.
manga is now a mainstream form of popular entertainment, and the standard of
manga in Japan, compared to the comics and cartoons of other countries, is
exceptionally high. The girls' manga genre in particular boasts an impressive
level of reading quality, and the group of authors who set the standard in this
genre are the "Year 24" artists, influential female creators born in the year
Showa 24 (1949 by the Christian calendar) who have been drawing amazingly frank
and comprehensive pictures of how women in Japan see their own sexuality from
all sorts of angles, ranging from lifestyle, fashion and work to attitudes
towards love and romance, family and life. While Japanese men were dizzy with
the excitement at the country's phenomenal economic growth, their women quietly
nurtured their own very different hopes and dreams, and the vivid imagination
of these artists provides a window through which one can observe them. Their
works make an ideal subject for gender study.
[3] It is clear from their own admission that Hagio and her fellow sci-fi
manga creators were avid readers of female American science fiction writers and
adopted similar approaches and ideas in their works. It is particularly
interesting to note that many of them used the motif of parthenogenesis and
other forms of unisex reproduction, and Hagio explains that Ursula Le Guin was
a major influence. Even in a society where women have enough economic power to
sustain themselves without relying on men's support, natural law dictates that
reproduction requires the presence of men. When the act of reproduction itself
is perceived as the very source of the pain and inequality of being a woman,
however, it is only natural that women start thinking how different things
might be if only they could bear children without men. Marxist feminists insist
that women are always second-class citizens because they are reproducers, and
that they are bound to the role of reproducers because they are second-class
citizens. It was, however, not feminist academics but women authors who took up
the challenge of attempting to answer this outrageous question: what if there
had been no men? What if society consisted entirely of men? Men who have never
come across women would not exploit women. Without men, the idea of women being
second-class citizens itself could not exist. This provocative question from
women seems finally to be close enough to reality to threaten men today. In a
column that appeared in a national newspaper, Professor Toshiyuki Shiomi of the
University of Tokyo asked: "Are men necessary?", and warned that the time might
come when men would become nothing more than sperm producers (June 13, 2000).
The real world seems to be imitating the worlds created in manga. I intend to
start this paper with a brief outline of the changes girls' and boys' manga
have gone through, followed by an analysis of Marginal by Moto Hagio using
unisex reproduction as the keyconcept in an attempt to gain insight into her
motivation in choosing this subject. It is my contention that this will serve
as a starting point for an examination of today's society, where women are
removed from, or driven to reject, their own maternity.
[4] From late 1960's to 1980's, both girls' and boys' manga created their own
world of fantasy where characters of the other sex were completely removed from
reality. Many girls' manga stories centered around a few cliched themes: the
heroine meets a dashing and dependable older man; or she meets a handsome rebel
from a broken family who hides a soft center and successfully reforms him by
the power of her love. This phase was characterized by the praise poured on
femininity and maternity by women themselves, and by their comfortable
illusions. Moto Hagio's stories of love between boys at a German boarding
school, which appeared at the peak of the first girls' comics boom, were an
admiringly brave attempt at dealing with girls sexuality head-on, a taboo
subject then, by transposing the issue onto the more distant -- and therefore
safe -- world of boys. This, however, was a compromise devised by the artist
working at a time when girls' sexuality was supposed to be something that had
to be preserved as a "gift" to her one and only true love. Her stories merely
cast boys acting out girls' sexuality and did not deal with the reality of
boys' lives or sexuality.
[5] In boys' manga of this period, on the other hand, machismo was the ruling
theme, typically seen in Otoko Ippiki Gakidaisho (The Lone Wolf) and Ore no
Sora (My Sky) by Hiroshi Motomiya, with emphasis on the hero's quest for
physical strength and worldly power. Women were simply the object of sex; they
were there to appear occasionally in the course of a man's pursuit of masculine
goals as the legitimate mate with whom he could satisfy his sexual drive. These
stories totally lacked a woman's point of view, and women in them were never
important enough to put the hero's mind through metaphysical turmoil. In this
sense, perhaps it is fair to say that one can find the pedigree of boys' manga
of this period in the tradition of modern male Japanese writers such as Naoya
Shiga and Yasunari Kawabata.
[6] From late 1980's to present girls' manga started to draw men more
realistically. Having realized that men were neither as wonderful as they
dreamed nor reformable by the power of their "maternal" love, women started
drawing the sort of men they came across in real life as the partners of their
heroines. As a natural consequence of this shift, conflicts between the two
sexes started to feature strongly in many works. Oishii Kankei (Delicious
Relationship) by Satoru Makimura and Furebarii Janpu (Fragrant Jump) by Motoko
Tsujii are typical of works of this new mold, solidly woven and realistic
relationship stories that follow women's search for the ideal modern man and
their frustration with their current partners.
[7] In this same period, realistic women were still conspicuous by their
absence in boys' manga produced by men. Women were still sex symbols. It was in
this period that female characters with baby-like faces and huge breasts (often
crudely described as "huge jugs", "a pair of warheads" and such like) started
proliferating in boys' manga. The same taste for "babes with boobs" was also
prominent in computer games and the world of TV "idols". In a paper considering
why Japanese girls' manga frequently deals with homosexual relationships,
McLelland touches on Japanese comics for men and describes, quoting Anne
Allison, that men in these comics are "hyper-masculine figures who look and act
like brutes", with the sexual aims of "seeing, possessing, penetrating, and
hurting" women(McLelland, 13). Men's outlook towards women had actually
regressed in this period.
[8] In this same period, stories departing from conventional heterosexual
relationships started appearing among girls' manga. Lesbian themes were tackled
seriously, with an approach totally different from the old "love between boys"
genre (which was an attempt to justify the sexual theme by transposing the
creators' own identities onto young boys). This new attitude went further and
produced stories dealing with transsexuality and transvestism. Similar themes
were also seen in boys' and men's manga, but, in contrast with the girls' manga
counterparts, these were full of mocking, contempt, degradation and
misconceptions. It was at this point that the theme of parthenogenesis appeared
in girls' manga like a swelling wave. For a long time, reproduction was treated
in mainstream film and literature as a natural consequence of heterosexual
relationships: a man and a woman fell in love, and a baby was the result of the
love. Now, heterosexual relationships and childbirth are no longer connected
with a single, straight line. The primary cause of this weakening of
male-female relationships is the acquisition of education and economic
independence by women. It has laid bare the fact that the main motivation for a
woman to build and protect a home with a man has been to secure the money to
put bread on the table. It has also broken the basis of a male domination in
the home, his power and privileges, his right to use violence, to represent the
family and to monopolize property rights. These were once justified by the
perceived superiority of men, but that perception lost substance when it was
revealed that the magic word was economic power. The spell of "home" that once
bound a man and a woman has been broken, and the woman, the oppressed half of
this relationship, no longer feels the need to view her matrimonial home as the
fortress of her life. Now single women with careers receive praise, not scorn.
[9] This change, however, has not dissipated women's own instinct to seek
comfort in seeing part of themselves in their offspring. Neither has it stopped
society frowning upon women who refuse to have children nor dispelled the idea
that a woman never matures until she has given birth and brought up children.
As a result, we are now seeing an increasing trend within which women seek
motherhood without marriage. A website run by Japan's only sperm bank,
Excellence, receives a huge number of accesses, which shows the strength of
interest in this method of conception. Sharp-eyed female authors were quick to
pick up on this tidal change when they took up the theme of unisex
reproduction. Marginal, the subject of analysis in the next section, appeared
as a serial between 1985 and 87 in Petit Flower, a magazine published by
Shogakukan which had a broad readership including working adults as well as
teenagers. Incidentally, 1985 was the year in which Canadian writer Margaret
Atwood published The Handmaid's Tale. It seems the whole world was witnessing
female creators in complex reflection on the issue of reproduction that year.
[10] Earth in 2999 A.D. is a barren planet. After disastrous environmental
pollution left women infertile around year 2300, the human race deserted for
Mars and other new homes, and the Company, a family business that runs an
economic empire across the solar system, has been using the sterile Earth as a
base for conducting their experiments. Thirteen domed cities built on Earth
sustain artificial ecosystems, and in surrounding deserts men dwell in villages
built around wells. In this strange world, people have a level of civilization
and enlightenment comparable only to that of ancient civilizations, and yet the
Company's helicopters in the sky are a familiar sight. As the story unfolds, it
becomes apparent to the reader that these Earth colonies have no women. Females
exist only among animals of lower orders, and men believe that all human
children are born and given to men by the Holy Mother who resides in the temple
of Monodor City. Men deposit their blood and semen in the holy temple when they
reach adulthood, a rite of passage known as "conjugation with the Mother".
Backstage, the Company's medical team inseminates eggs supplied by women from
the Moon and other space colonies with Earth men's sperms, grow babies in
artificial wombs and send them to men according to a roster. Sex life is
fulfilled solely between men. Young boys play companion to older men and
experience sex in a passive role and, on reaching maturity, move on to buying
their own boy-companion. The aim of the Company's experiments is to establish
if it is possible to restore maternity (fertility) in the polluted ecosystem of
Earth, but they are about to reach the conclusion that it is a hopeless cause.
[11] The local supervisor of the project posted by the Company is referred to
as the "Margrave" after the marcher lord of the Roman Empire, ruler of marginal
regions, and Earth is regarded very much as a peripheral territory on the
margin of the Company's world. To this marginal planet comes a maverick
scientist from Mars, who rebels against a genetics research code and creates
quadruplets using his wife's eggs and genetic materials from a descendant of a
race that has been prohibited to recreate because of a hereditary defect it
carries: powerful empathic ability. The quadruplets are hermaphrodites. On an
Earth where there are no women, men know no contempt or love for women. The
central concern to them is the fact that the number of children born by the
aging Holy Mother is on a decrease (as the Company winds the experiments down
engineering a decrease in population), and that their turn for a baby does not
come quickly enough. Then, one of the genetically-engineered quadruplets named
Kira, a "human female" with the ability to conceive, appears before these men.
Kira and two young men living in the desert set out on their wandering path
over the apocalyptic Earth under a dark shadow of doom and death, in search of
the secret of maternity.
[12] This epic manga by Hagio is full of complex plots, subplots and
surprises and is difficult to summarize. The lost dream child named Kira is a
hermaphrodite carrying XXY genes, but this mystery is beyond the comprehension
of the people of Marginal, who have a level of cultural development comparable
only to that of ancient civilizations. The child is simply accepted as a boy by
the appearance of her genitalia. In the old tradition of girls' manga,
homosexuality has largely been used as a safety mechanism whereby the sexual
desires of authors and readers are given an objective perspective and thus the
taboo of women talking openly about sex could be circumvented. In Marginal,
however, homosexuality is an inevitable consequence of a society without women
and is described as a social system modeled on the boy brothels of Yedo-period
Japan . The men of Earth, who know female beings only among livestock and small
animals, do not have any "instinctive" desire for women. The central concern to
them in this turbulent time is not getting hold of women to bear their children
but the fact that the system of child supply by the central government is
breaking down.
[13] Maternity and women are not synonymous in this world. Marginal is the
place Hagio reached after her long journey through different periods of
expressions in girls' manga. After a period of withdrawal, in which women
attempted to neutralize or erase their own sexuality and reject maternity as
the result of the oppression of women by a male-centred society, followed by a
period characterized by stories of love between boys in order to express female
desires and sexuality, Hagio emerged with Marginal, which heralded women's own
attempts at examining the meaning of maternity. Hagio explained: "our
generation had to break down the brick wall that was paternal society. Marginal
was an experiment; I wanted to recreate a maternal society and re-examine it
(January 1, 2000)." Many female authors choose the future as a backdrop for
their creations in order to escape the annoying shackles of reality in which
being female is synonymous to possessing maternity. A world where maternity has
been obliterated is a popular setting designed to remove the synonymity out of
the equation. This is often explained as being a result of chemical or
environmental pollution or a consequence of advancement in medical technology
leading to overzealous longetivity treatments or genetic engineering. One can
read behind these settings female authors' anger towards men's obsession with
industrialization, which has created a society where efficiency and
profitability rule supreme, sacrificing nature against women's wishes.
[14] Hagio, however, chose to analyze maternity using a male-only society as
a setting, not the female-only society favored by many female science fiction
writers, and her approach also distinguishes itself from once popular "green
sci-fi" novels, which had their roots in ecological feminism. The kind-natured
common men of Marginal are depicted as oppressed people under the control of
the Company, and thus the simplistic equation of men = destroyers versus women
= victims is carefully avoided. Marginal also rejects another common setting,
that a male-only society ruled by a single queen figure worshipped by men. The
Holy Mother of Marginal is simply a figurehead, revered not as a woman but as a
child-giving god. To the Company's men, who know that the Holy Mother is merely
a young boy surgically turned into an artificial deity, she is merely a pitiful
robot. In this story, even the way men view a woman is expertly designed to be
completely free from conventions through a set of complex story-telling
devices.
[15] Marginal consists of several main plots working in parallel: the story
of Meyard, the Margrave sent by the Company; the story of Iwan, a scientific
genius from Mars who creates Kira; the story of Asijin, a young Earth man who
has become an outcast and lives in a cave outside his village because of an
operation he was given as a child at the Company's underground medical center
hidden deep underneath Monodor City following a near-fatal accident; and,
lastly, the story of Kira.
[16] Hagio chose not to draw Meyard, a member of the Company assigned to the
Earth as Monodor's Margrave, as an embodiment of male-centric views like his
counterpart Paveman in Star Red, her previous work which dealt with a similar
theme. Meyard is a carrier of a cursed gene he inherited from his ancestors and
is prohibited to procreate because of it. Furthermore, female hormones he has
been given as a treatment for his serious disease has turned his body partially
feminine, making him a person of ambiguous gender, just like Kira. Meyard is
portrayed as a victim of a social mechanism that discriminates against sex and
class, and his unstable gender symbolizes the precarious position in which the
experimental colony he presides over stands. However, Meyard himself is not
aware of his position as the oppressed and acts as a male ruler sent from the
normal world outside. Seeing that the maternity restoration project on Earth is
failing, he says "I am the last watcher of dying Earth", a remark fitting for a
marcher lord deserted by the retreating Roman army. This is the kind of
self-pitying utterance often heard from men who have been betrayed by the
company to which they devoted their working life. Meyard could have been a
bridge between the two worlds, but he can only see the fact that part of his
body has turned feminine as an unbearable shame. A loser pushed out of the
power center yet acting as an arrogant ruler in his marginal world, Meyard's
identity is on precarious balance, and as he loses sight of himself, he dies a
tragic death at the end of the story, calling the name of a woman he once
loved. Hagio looks on Meyard with cold and unsympathetic eyes, yet there is no
sense of repulsion detectable in her treatment of Paveman in Star Red. Meyard
is a figure who could neither be a man nor a woman and neither be the oppressor
or the oppressed, and one could see in him a reflection of confused men in
Japan who are at a loss at a time when the relationship between men and women
is going through a transition.
[17] Iwan, a scientist from Mars, is a so-called "adult child", an adult who
has not got over a psychological trauma he suffered as a child. His father had
an affair and left his mother, but when the mistress deserted him, he tried to
get back with her. When she refused to take him in, he shut his little boy out
of the room, beat his ex-wife unconscious and raped her. She survived the
ordeal, but the memory of fear drove her insane, and she killed herself half a
year later. Since then, Iwan has been thinking how it happened. The womb must
be capable of dreaming different dreams from those of the cerebrum, he
concludes. In the womb, even time flows differently. Why did mother go insane?
What scared her out of mind? She was raped when she was unconscious and could
not have remembered the event. He has come to believe that it was her female
reproductive organs that remembered the experience and drove her mad. He grows
up to be a scientist and decides to create "happy children", children who live
in perpetual dreams, free from hatred, bitterness and the fear that ruined his
and his mother's lives. This requires genes that give powerful empathy, the
ability to feel other people's happiness as one's own. He finds a descendant of
a tribe that possesses these genes. The tribe is known to have caused
lemming-like mass suicides every century or so and is now prohibited to
procreate by the genetics law of the solar system because of its destructive
genetic disposition. The descendant Iwan found was Meyard. Iwan marries his
college sweetheart, injects Meyard's genes into eggs taken from her and, after
much trial and error, produces identical quadruplets. This banned experiment,
illegal under the genetics law, was conducted on polluted Earth, in a forest
outside the protected dome of Monodor. The quadruplets share minds between the
separate bodies, and although they grow up healthy, Iwan's wife finds the
mindsharing children too grotesque to bear and runs away from the hideout,
seeking refuge from the Company. The Company burns down the forest in which
Iwan and the children live, and all except Kira die in the fire. Hagio tells
this story to show how technology bends and twists maternity and turns it into
a cradle for the grotesque delusions of men. Hagio depicts Iwan as a
self-centerd man who uses other people's lives in order to accomplish his own
quest for identity, as is typical of a grown-up mummy's boy who has
internalized his mother's suffering to an extreme. She uses this character to
mirror the image of male gynecologists in the race for developing new
reproductive technologies and highlights sharply how maternity itself is coldly
sidelined in this race..."
Ian
> >Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
> >From: Bob boby...@hotmail.com
> >Date: 2/14/2004 7:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <402EDFD4...@hotmail.com>
> >
> >connor_a wrote:
> >> "AUSTRALIAN women are struggling to balance work and family life
> >> because they still bear the brunt of domestic chores."
> >
> >And men still bear the brunt of building the house, cars, roads,
> >shopping malls, dishwashers, etc.
> >
> >No problem mate.
>
> Apparently, there is a problem, Bob, since Australian women can work outside
> the home and call their own shots, but the problem is for Australian men:
I don't see how it's a problem for Aussie men. It's women who are doing the
work.
Unsurprising to. Cleaning the house is women's work. Building it is men's.
Raul
> >That's lovely. Women wanting sex without commitment is a blessing for
> >men.
>
> Where did I use the word "blessing" and why do you think women have a duty to
> "bless" men?
Evidently, you need meds to control your delusions and lessons in text
comprehension.
> In the meantime, white aussies will become a minority and immigrants from
> Asian patriarchies, like myself, will take over.
>
> I'm not concerned about Asians at all, dear; your women are also going awol.
> :-)
I'm not Japanese. Japan is very patriarchal and race concious for a
pacifist first-world nation. The situation in Australia shows that
women's emancipation equals ethnic suicide and japanese men won't let
that happen.
You can find articles about feminists even in notoriously patriarchal
nations like India but that proves absolutely nothing.
Dave M
In a few years time they will either be bankrupt (assuming the dating
game works) or realising just how much better off they are with a
shortage of vermin - sorry wimmin - to cope with.
Much better state to be in... less wimmin in the community... much
more peaceful existance.
Hyerdahl1
>Message-id: <4030F834...@hotmail.com>
>
>Hyerdahl1 wrote:
>>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>>From: Bob boby...@hotmail.com
>>>Date: 2/14/2004 7:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: <402EDFD4...@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>>connor_a wrote:
>>>
>>>>"AUSTRALIAN women are struggling to balance work and family life
>>>>because they still bear the brunt of domestic chores."
>>>
>>>And men still bear the brunt of building the house, cars, roads,
>>>shopping malls, dishwashers, etc.
>>>
>>>No problem mate.
>>
>>
> Apparently, there is a problem, Bob, since Australian women can work outside
>> the home and call their own shots, but the problem is for Australian men:
>
>Go fuck yourself bitch.
Geeze Bob; I'll leave those kinds of super flexible actions to those who have
more experience in them, like you. I always wondered what men like you _did_
when they are unable to afford an air compressor.
connor_a
> >>>And men still bear the brunt of building the house, cars, roads,
> >>>shopping malls, dishwashers, etc.
> >>
> >> the home and call their own shots, but the problem is for Australian men:
> >
> >Go fuck yourself bitch.
>
> Geeze Bob; I'll leave those kinds of super flexible actions to those who have
> more experience in them, like you. I always wondered what men like you _did_
> when they are unable to afford an air compressor.
>
shoulder the burdens ... maybe they are just being protect me pink
sexists.
DedNdogYrs
the burdens ... maybe they are just being protect me pink sexists.>
Australian men have a reputation for hating women. Maybe the women there want
to get away from that.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
Building a house is a one-time thing. Cleaning it goes on forever. It is not
fair to expect anyone, male or female, to be both breadwinner and homemaker.
Why should anyone work a 16 hour day while their partner sits on his ass?
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
works) or realising just how much better off they are with a shortage of vermin
- sorry wimmin - to cope with. Much better state to be in... less wimmin in the
community... much
more peaceful existance.>
So all women are vermin huh? You like to screw men? And you creeps accuse
women of hating men. Why don't you see how it is in China, where they have
killed most of the under-age-20 women, and see how the men like it.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
the meantime, white aussies will become a minority and
immigrants from Asian patriarchies, like myself, will take over.>
Don't count on it. American women (or men) wouldn't allow a bunch of
immigrants from backward countries to "take them over" so I doubt that
Australian women (or men) will. In my country you're just seen as refuse, an
annoyance, a bunch of invaders, and you are resented. Sometimes worse than
resented.
Dogs & children first.
Bob
Good point. No man with half a brain would marry one of today's lazy
whining femroids. All they do is sit on their asses watching Ophra all
day and whine that they work too hard.
Bob
--
When did we divide into sides?
"As president, I will put American government and our legal system back
on the side of women." John Kerry, leading Democratic candidate for
President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/
Hyerdahl1
>Date: 2/16/2004 5:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6688b088.04021...@posting.google.com>
Women are CHOOSING what work they do perform just like men, connor, along with
the stress from that work. So, in the end, all's well that ends well, eh?
Bob
No, not all women are vermin. Some are quite good, but the other 99%
give them a bad reputation.
Bob
--
When did we divide into sides?
"As president, I will put American government and our legal system back
on the side of women." John Kerry, leading Democratic candidate for
President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/
Raul
You'd know better if you were capable of reason and thought of this
matter for a minute. If current trends persist, people of european
stock will be a minority in America by 2050 and it's entirely the
fault of quixotic whites like yourself.
Hyerdahl1
>Date: 2/18/04 1:38 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <d33ce629.04021...@posting.google.com>
Not any more, Ian. Today women are doing everything men are doing PLUS
gestating. Here's a site about women in construction, dear; educate yourself.
http://www.constructionlists.com/wic/datacarddisplay.aspx
connor_a
> >
> >Unsurprising to. Cleaning the house is women's work. Building it is men's.
>
> Not any more, Ian. Today women are doing everything men are doing PLUS
> gestating. Here's a site about women in construction, dear; educate yourself.
>
> http://www.constructionlists.com/wic/datacarddisplay.aspx
>
every 10 men house cleaners there are 250,000 women cleaners.
Mark Borgerson
conn...@hotmail.com says...
Labor statistics pegs the number of women carpenters as about 1% of the
total.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1997/04/art2full.pdf
Thus it should be:
> For every 10 women builders there are 1000 men builders thus for
> every 10 men house cleaners there are 1,000 women cleaners.
Incidentally, there are about 1.2 million carpenters in the US. It's
the largest segment of the construction trades, and is an even greater
proportion of the total in residential construction.
Mark Borgerson
Hyerdahl1
>From: Sean_M...@yahoo.com (Sean_MacCloud)
>Date: 2/17/2004 5:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <56b71b79.04021...@posting.google.com>
>
>hyer...@aol.com (Hyerdahl1) wrote in message
>news:<20040217132516...@mb-m11.aol.com>...
> >
>> What RIGHTS don't men have?
>
>It is obvious that there are special privileges the females get in
>many or most sectors of society. I'm not going to debate that with you
>you idiot or liar.
>
>>Are you complaining that women are simply making>> better choices about their
own lives
>
>When men "make better choices about their own lives" it is called crime. Or at
least exploitive selfishness.
???? When men resort to crime, it's crime. They can be as selfish as they
like, but they can't commit crime. Isn't the Enron dude learning that right
now?
>
>> and don't buy Prince Controlling stories?
>
>"Prince controlling stories"... Here's one for you: there is no such>thing as
equal-- the men control the females or the females control>the men, period.
Anything else is lie or delusion. Therefore "not
>buying prince stories" is irrelevent-- control is simply imposed;
>"buying it"(falling for it) has nothing to do with it.
>
Ok; if I have to choose, I'll pick door number two. :-) Othewise, my mate
and I would prefer to share.
>And further the women are not "simply making better choices". They are
>pandered to benefactors, getting unconstituional privileges in a huge
>boss tweed(political) gimick called democracy.
Well, here's the thing, hon; you're in the pot too. If you don't like social
programs don't vote for them. In the meantime, the divorce rate keeps going up
for every man who dosn't do his share of the unpaid work.
DedNdogYrs
a minute. If current trends persist, people of european stock will be a
minority in America by 2050 and it's entirely the fault of quixotic whites like
yourself.>
It's already that way where I live, and a certain minority have taken over the
city government. But women aren't going to lose their basic rights because of
it any more than black people are because American rights are law. And
actually, since these middle eastern people have come here, I have seen more
women in high positions at work than ever before. They have not been
successful in taking over neighborhoods though. They have their neighborhoods
and the original residents have theirs.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
All they do is sit on their asses watching Ophra all day and whine that they
work too hard.>
I don't know where in the world you live, but where I live even a one bedroom
apartment costs $800 a month and women have to work. Then they come home and
work until bedtime if they have kids.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
men house cleaners there are 250,000 women cleaners.>
House cleaning for wages is done by newly arrived immigrant labor where I live.
They survive by living 16 in a two bedroom house and 34 in a three bedroom
house (these are actual numbers of people who have lived in those houses). This
is why American women are going to college in record numbers; they apparently
can't get into blue collar work much so the only way they can earn a decent
living is to go to college. I don't know what will happen to the women who
can't do college work. Maybe they will be tomorrow's homeless.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
a bad reputation. Bob>
I'm glad men have no faults.
Dogs & children first.
Bob
Yada, yada, yada. The usual old tired feminist nonsense doesn't get it
here Toots.
As stated above, women today always whine about having to work too hard.
Thanks for the demo.
Bob
Feminist definition: "Homeless" --> Women who are provided free
apartments by the government.
gary o brien
jesus where do you read such crap, get a life, and an education while your at it
>
>
> Dogs & children first.
gary o brien
hey raul, dont sweat it, she probably hasnt ever left the farm in her
life, let alone the state. one day she will travel and maybe see the
real world
rogue
Raul
> It's already that way where I live, and a certain minority have taken over the
> city government. But women aren't going to lose their basic rights because of
> it any more than black people are because American rights are law. And
> actually, since these middle eastern people have come here, I have seen more
> women in high positions at work than ever before. They have not been
> successful in taking over neighborhoods though. They have their neighborhoods
> and the original residents have theirs.
America is still 77% white. We'll see how long women's privileges last
when whites are a minority.
Don't you see the contradiction in your beliefs? A woman has to be a
one-worlder if she is a feminist or a fecund house-wife if racist.
White women can't keep the privileges and culture they enjoy now and
still expect marriages to be strong and fruitful.
DedNdogYrs
under-age-20 women, and see how the men like it.>>
<jesus where do you read such crap, get a life, and an education while your at
it>
You get an education, or isn't there enough money for public schools in that
communist country you live in? People in China have been murdering baby girls,
having sex selective abortions, and turning newborn girls over to orphanages
where their death rate is around 50% ever since the government there mandated a
one child per family policy.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
Toots.>
Meaningless response from someone who has no meaningful rebuttal.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
whites are a minority.>
Whites are already a minority where I am and I still have the right to vote, be
given equal consideration for jobs, and can sue the hell out of someone denying
me any number of rights. The same for handicapped people and people of all
races. I'm not in Australia. I'm in America. This is probably the most rights
oriented country in the world. And we don't treat women like pigs here; that's
something men seem to do in the UK and Australia for some reason. Maybe it's
rebellion against having a rich parasitical queen sucking up their money,
including, incredibly, making people pay to watch television in your own homes.
Yeah, I guess I'd hate the people who did that to me too.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
the government.>
Bullshit. This is America. We work or starve here unless we're seriously
disabled or elderly. A woman with kids can get welfare for three to five years
depending on the state. After that, if she is sufficiently poor enough, she
might be able to get a Section 8 housing subsidy after a long wait to pay
*part* of the rent. If you want to work all day and then come home and cook
dinner for several kids and do all their dishes and bathe them and put them to
bed and do their laundry and have nothing to show for all that work except
being broke, then be my guest. Men can do the same and get Section 8 too. I
would guess that most don't want to, or they make enough money that they don't
need housing help. Historically, men alone with children have sent them
packing, to relatives, boarding schools, and orphanages.
Dogs & children first.
Hyerdahl1
>From: conn...@hotmail.com (connor_a)
>Date: 2/19/2004 12:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6688b088.0402...@posting.google.com>>news:<20040218194257...@mb-m12.aol.com>...
>> >>>And men still bear the brunt of building the house, cars, roads,
>> >>>shopping malls, dishwashers, etc.
>> >>
>> Apparently, there is a problem, Bob, since Australian women can work
>outside> the home and call their own shots, but the problem is for Australian
>men:
>> >
>> >Go fuck yourself bitch.
>>
>> Geeze Bob; I'll leave those kinds of super flexible actions to those who
>have> more experience in them, like you. I always wondered what men like you
>_did_> when they are unable to afford an air compressor.
>>
>How come women are leaving the country aren't they strong enough to>shoulder
the burdens ... maybe they are just being protect me pink sexists.
What are you talking about, connor; what women are "leaving the country"? As
to women being "strong", the strength they show is in doing things that are
life maintaining. Who is "stronger", connor, the dead or the living?
Raul
> <America is still 77% white. We'll see how long women's privileges last when
> whites are a minority.>
>
> Whites are already a minority where I am and I still have the right to vote, be
> given equal consideration for jobs, and can sue the hell out of someone denying
> me any number of rights.
I ought to stop replying. If whites are a minority where you live,
what's with that racist boast earlier, you stupid cunt? Moreover, it
was obvious that I was talking of America as a whole, not your trailer
park.
> The same for handicapped people and people of all
> races.
You're a one-worlder now?
Bob
> <Feminist definition: "Homeless" --> Women who are provided free apartments by
> the government.>
>
> Bullshit. This is America.
Exactly. The government statistics on "homeless" are based on counting
the number of women and children they provide homes for. The government
does not count the men who live in doorways, over 95% of people who
actually don't have homes.
> We work or starve here unless we're seriously
> disabled or elderly. A woman with kids can get welfare for three to five years
> depending on the state.
LOL. Millions of women are living on government expense. Your stupid
dreams are not reality.
> After that, if she is sufficiently poor enough, she
> might be able to get a Section 8 housing subsidy after a long wait to pay
> *part* of the rent. If you want to work all day and then come home and cook
> dinner for several kids and do all their dishes and bathe them and put them to
> bed and do their laundry and have nothing to show for all that work except
> being broke, then be my guest. Men can do the same and get Section 8 too. I
> would guess that most don't want to, or they make enough money that they don't
> need housing help. Historically, men alone with children have sent them
> packing, to relatives, boarding schools, and orphanages.
> Dogs & children first.
You femroids fucked up marriage and created millions of single mothers.
You have nobody to blame but yourself and your feminist bigot sisters.
And BTW: Men can not get the same government programs becasue
regardless of what the law seems to say, the administrators routinely
turn down men who apply. The US government is totally sexist.
Bob
occupant
>
> DedNdogYrs wrote:
> > <Cleaning the house is women's work. Building it is men's.>
> >
> > Building a house is a one-time thing. Cleaning it goes on forever. It is not
> > fair to expect anyone, male or female, to be both breadwinner and homemaker.
> > Why should anyone work a 16 hour day while their partner sits on his ass?
>
> Good point. No man with half a brain would marry one of today's lazy
> whining femroids. All they do is sit on their asses watching Ophra all
> day and whine that they work too hard.
>
> Bob
>
Remember, men spend a life time hoping to be noitced by women. Women
decide which man
she will notice and for how long. Women don't need men except to
father their offspirng.
It is the same in nature.
That is why men are raised and permitted to have huge egoes so they can
deal with the disappointment
and reality of life. It they were told the reality too soon, they
wouldn't have the self esteam to
get out of bed in the morning.
DedNdogYrs
earlier, you stupid cunt?>
You call me a name like this and *I'm* the bigot?? You didn't see me call you a
camel-jockey, rag-head, or gook did you? (Until now.) The immigrants here are
rude and they never bathe and even if they become 90% of the population here
the original residents don't like them much.
<Moreover, it was obvious that I was talking of America as a whole, not your
trailer park.>
America as a whole hasn't fallen yet. And I don't live in a trailer-I live in
a mansion. I'll bet you live in an apartment packed like sardines with four
generations of family members, if you're like the other invaders.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
Perhaps so. I think they did it because homemakers were so disrespected in
society.
<You have nobody to blame but yourself and your feminist bigot sisters.>
I'm still waiting to hear how you define this word "feminist". I doubt if I am
one.
Dogs & children first.
Raul
> Remember, men spend a life time hoping to be noitced by women. Women
have you seen? Why do they give love, companionship and commitment
such importance in contrast to men? Career women go to seminars to
learn to find a husband, for christ's sake.
It should be obvious to even a fool that women go to much greater
lengths to get noticed than any man, even a metrosexual. Besides, men
want the attentions of only young attractive women.
> It is the same in nature.
Actually, mating and child-rearing behaviour varies a lot among
species within a class.
> That is why men are raised and permitted to have huge egoes so they can
> deal with the disappointment
> and reality of life. It they were told the reality too soon, they
> wouldn't have the self esteam to
> get out of bed in the morning.
You post is full of misconceptions. Most men do not have huge egos.
The few men who preserve one past high shool are immature idiots and
also chick-magnets. Apparently, you're one of those chicks who make
generalizations based on such men after being dumped.
It seems as though all the women who post in soc.men are the personas
of one stupid bitch.
Bob
> Bob wrote:
>
>>DedNdogYrs wrote:
>>
>>><Cleaning the house is women's work. Building it is men's.>
>>>
>>>Building a house is a one-time thing. Cleaning it goes on forever. It is not
>>>fair to expect anyone, male or female, to be both breadwinner and homemaker.
>>>Why should anyone work a 16 hour day while their partner sits on his ass?
>>
>>Good point. No man with half a brain would marry one of today's lazy
>>whining femroids. All they do is sit on their asses watching Ophra all
>>day and whine that they work too hard.
>>
>>Bob
>>
>
>
> Remember, men spend a life time hoping to be noitced by women. Women
> decide which man
> she will notice and for how long. Women don't need men except to
> father their offspirng.
> It is the same in nature.
You seriously mistake nature. Females have grown large breasts due to
bio-selection to be noticed and selected by men. Your silly femroid
lies are disproven by looking at any female.
Females generally can't provide any of their basic needs of clothing,
housing, food, etc. Throughout history females have had to compete for
men and men's favors to survive. Femroids need men a lot more than men
need women.
> That is why men are raised and permitted to have huge egoes so they can
> deal with the disappointment
> and reality of life. It they were told the reality too soon, they
> wouldn't have the self esteam to
> get out of bed in the morning.
LOL. Pound sand.
Bob
Bob
Look in the mirror bigot brain.
Ken&Laura Chaddock
>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>From: conn...@hotmail.com (connor_a)
>>So women aren't contributing their EQ share on the land after all,
>>gooood one feminist herydahl.
>
>
> Women are CHOOSING what work they do perform just like men, connor, along with
> the stress from that work. So, in the end, all's well that ends well, eh?
It's nice to see that you finally admit that women CHOOSE not to take
up an equal share of the burden of building and maintaining civilization.
Just for my own information Parg...what was it that finally made you
admit that we've been telling you the truth all these years ?
...Frankly curious Ken
Hyerdahl1
>Date: 2/22/2004 4:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <N%a_b.6311$Ks6.1...@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>
>Hyerdahl1 wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>>From: conn...@hotmail.com (connor_a)
>
>>>So women aren't contributing their EQ share on the land after all,
>>>gooood one feminist herydahl.
>>
>>
>> Women are CHOOSING what work they do perform just like men, connor,
along>with> the stress from that work. So, in the end, all's well that ends
well, eh?
>
> It's nice to see that you finally admit that women CHOOSE not to take
>up an equal share of the burden of building and maintaining civilization.
Let's try again; women and men are both FREE to choose the kinds of work they
do whether or not they face rampant discrimination in the process.
> Just for my own information Parg...what was it that finally made you
>admit that we've been telling you the truth all these years ?
You can't legislate what work people choose to take, especially when they face
discrimination trying to get that work.
>
>...Frankly curious Ken
Ken&Laura Chaddock
>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>From: Ken&Laura Chaddock chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca
>>Date: 2/22/2004 4:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <N%a_b.6311$Ks6.1...@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>>
>>Hyerdahl1 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>>>From: conn...@hotmail.com (connor_a)
>>
>>>>So women aren't contributing their EQ share on the land after all,
>>>>gooood one feminist herydahl.
>>>
>>>
>>>Women are CHOOSING what work they do perform just like men, connor,
>
> along>with> the stress from that work. So, in the end, all's well that ends
> well, eh?
>
>> It's nice to see that you finally admit that women CHOOSE not to take
>>up an equal share of the burden of building and maintaining civilization.
>
>
> Let's try again; women and men are both FREE to choose the kinds of work they
> do whether or not they face rampant discrimination in the process.
No need to try again Parg, you've just said the same thing you said
before, women CHOOSE not to take on an equal share of the burdens of
civilization building...someone has to clean the sewers Parg and since
women don't seem to be willing to do it, don't complain that the MEN who
do are paid more or are given a greater degree of social recognition for
taking on these onerous tasks...
>> Just for my own information Parg...what was it that finally made you
>>admit that we've been telling you the truth all these years ?
>
> You can't legislate what work people choose to take, especially when they face
> discrimination trying to get that work.
I will grant you that there was discrimination in the past but not
anymore Parg. Yet even with the death of significant discrimination,
women STILL refuse to take up the burdens and onerous tasks required to
build and maintain civilization. Since women refuse to accept an equal
share of the burdens, they should not expect an equal share of the
rewards...
...Ken
Hyerdahl1
>Message-id: <VZ9%b.2027$mx4....@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>
>Hyerdahl1 wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>>From: Ken&Laura Chaddock chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca
>>>Date: 2/22/2004 4:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: <N%a_b.6311$Ks6.1...@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>>>
>>>Hyerdahl1 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>>>>From: conn...@hotmail.com (connor_a)
>>>
>>>>>So women aren't contributing their EQ share on the land after all,
>>>>>gooood one feminist herydahl.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Women are CHOOSING what work they do perform just like men, connor,
>> along>with> the stress from that work. So, in the end, all's well
that>ends
> well, eh?
>>
>>> It's nice to see that you finally admit that women CHOOSE not to take
>up an equal share of the burden of building and maintaining civilization.
I never said any such thing, Ken; clearly women do stressful work and seem to
be doing everything men are doing PLUS gestating. AND women and men are both
FREE to choose the kinds of work
>they>> do whether or not they face rampant discrimination in the process.
>>
>
> No need to try again Parg, you've just said the same thing you said
>before, women CHOOSE not to take on an equal share of the burdens of
>civilization building...someone has to clean the sewers Parg and since
>women don't seem to be willing to do it, don't complain that the MEN who
>do are paid more or are given a greater degree of social recognition for
>taking on these onerous tasks...
Men are no longer given greater social recognition simply by ranking work men
do as "special". AND women are doing everything men have traditionally done
plus gestating. Men are no longer finding themselves as "special" as they once
did.
>(edit)
>>
>>Also You can't legislate what work people choose to take, especially when
they>face> discrimination trying to get that work.
>
> I will grant you that there was discrimination in the past but not
anymore Parg.
So, Ken...if I am female and you are male, and both of us seek a job as
custodian, both of us having the same stuff on our resume' you think I have the
same shot you have of getting hired? :-)
Yet even with the death of significant discrimination, >women STILL refuse to
take up the burdens and onerous tasks required to >build and maintain
civilization. Since women refuse to accept an equal
>share of the burdens, they should not expect an equal share of the
>rewards...
What particular job is there where some woman somewhere is not also doing that
job?
>
>...Ken
connor_a
> Hyerdahl1 wrote:
> I will grant you that there was discrimination in the past but not
> anymore Parg. Yet even with the death of significant discrimination,
> women STILL refuse to take up the burdens and onerous tasks required to
> build and maintain civilization. Since women refuse to accept an equal
> share of the burdens, they should not expect an equal share of the
> rewards...
>
> ...Ken
"Since women refuse to accept an equal share of the burdens, they
should not expect an equal share of the rewards... "
EXACTLY. Well said Ken.
Ken&Laura Chaddock
>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>From: Ken&Laura Chaddock chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca
>>Date: 2/25/2004 4:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <VZ9%b.2027$mx4....@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>>
>>Hyerdahl1 wrote:
>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>>>From: Ken&Laura Chaddock chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca
>>>>Date: 2/22/2004 4:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>>Message-id: <N%a_b.6311$Ks6.1...@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>> No need to try again Parg, you've just said the same thing you said
>>before, women CHOOSE not to take on an equal share of the burdens of
>>civilization building...someone has to clean the sewers Parg and since
>>women don't seem to be willing to do it, don't complain that the MEN who
>>do are paid more or are given a greater degree of social recognition for
>>taking on these onerous tasks...
>
>
> Men are no longer given greater social recognition simply by ranking work men
> do as "special". AND women are doing everything men have traditionally done
> plus gestating. Men are no longer finding themselves as "special" as they once
> did.
Sure they are...you wouldn't be complaining about "discrimination" or
the "wage gap" otherwise...
>>(edit)
>>
>>>Also You can't legislate what work people choose to take, especially when
>
> they>face> discrimination trying to get that work.
>
>> I will grant you that there was discrimination in the past but not
>
> anymore Parg.
>
> So, Ken...if I am female and you are male, and both of us seek a job as
> custodian, both of us having the same stuff on our resume' you think I have the
> same shot you have of getting hired? :-)
No actually if the woman is more qualified she'll get it, if the man is
more qualified, she'll still probably get it because of some employment
equity policy or guidelines...
> Yet even with the death of significant discrimination, women STILL refuse to
> take up the burdens and onerous tasks required to build and maintain
> civilization. Since women refuse to accept an equal share of the burdens,
> they should not expect an equal share of the rewards...
>
>
> What particular job is there where some woman somewhere is not also doing that
> job?
It's not a matter of "some woman somewhere" Parg but of equal numbers
of women everywhere...I'm sure we can find a female sewer cleaner
*somewhere* but we certainly won't find an equal number of female sewer
workers. Women want "equality" in the high paying and generally
pleasant, safe professional jobs but they certainly don't seem to want
"equality" in the dangerous, uncomfortable and low paying but essential
jobs...and this has nothing to do with men wanting to keep them out...
...Ken
Hyerdahl1
>Message-id: <t8T%b.3100$mx4....@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>
>Hyerdahl1 wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>>From: Ken&Laura Chaddock chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca
>>>Date: 2/25/2004 4:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: <VZ9%b.2027$mx4....@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>>>
>>>Hyerdahl1 wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>>>>From: Ken&Laura Chaddock chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca
>>>>>Date: 2/22/2004 4:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>>>Message-id: <N%a_b.6311$Ks6.1...@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>
>>> No need to try again Parg, you've just said the same thing you said
>>>before, women CHOOSE not to take on an equal share of the burdens of
>>>civilization building...someone has to clean the sewers Parg and since
>>>women don't seem to be willing to do it, don't complain that the MEN who
>>>do are paid more or are given a greater degree of social recognition for
>>>taking on these onerous tasks...
>>
>>
>> Men are no longer given greater social recognition simply by ranking work
>men> do as "special". AND women are doing everything men have traditionally
>done>> plus gestating. Men are no longer finding themselves as "special" as
they>once>> did.
>
> Sure they are...you wouldn't be complaining about "discrimination" or
>the "wage gap" otherwise...
The "wage gap" is getting smaller every year that goes by. AND, discrimination
won't tend to happen in a world where half those who do the hiring are female.
>
>>>(edit)
>>>
>>>>Also You can't legislate what work people choose to take, especially when
they>face> discrimination trying to get that work.
>>
>>> I will grant you that there was discrimination in the past but not
>> anymore Parg.
>>
>> So, Ken...if I am female and you are male, and both of us seek a job as
custodian, both of us having the same stuff on our resume' you think I have
>the>> same shot you have of getting hired? :-)
>
> No actually if the woman is more qualified she'll get it, if the man is
>more qualified, she'll still probably get it because of some employment
>equity policy or guidelines...
>
Hahahahahaha! You can certainly retain that nightmare if you like. :-)
>> Yet even with the death of significant discrimination, women STILL refuse
>to>> take up the burdens and onerous tasks required to build and maintain
>> civilization. Since women refuse to accept an equal share of the burdens,
>> they should not expect an equal share of the rewards...
>>
>>
>> What particular job is there where some woman somewhere is not also doing
>that> job?
>
> It's not a matter of "some woman somewhere" Parg but of equal numbers
>of women everywhere...
How is that important when the kinds of work one chooses is a choice? If men
want to value what men do more than what women traditionally choose, there may
be more and more questions about that. :-)
I'm sure we can find a female sewer cleaner >*somewhere* but we certainly won't
find an equal number of female sewer
>workers.
Nor need we. Perhaps we can show studies where sewer workers face much less
stress than secretaries. :-)
Women want "equality" in the high paying and generally >pleasant, safe
professional jobs but they certainly don't seem to want
>"equality" in the dangerous, uncomfortable and low paying but essential
>jobs...and this has nothing to do with men wanting to keep them out...
>
Jobs that men do are no more "essential" than jobs women do.
DedNdogYrs
professional jobs but they certainly don't seem to want "equality" in the
dangerous, uncomfortable and low paying but essential
jobs...>
Doesn't everybody? Should black men have to clean sewers before they can
become lawyers? Besides, there is a movie about a woman who wanted to be a
coal miner so that she could make $5.00 an hour (a large sum at the time) to
support herself and her children, and the men made her life miserable (as if
being a coal miner wasn't miserable enough).
Dogs & children first.
Ken&Laura Chaddock
>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>From: Ken&Laura Chaddock chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca
>>Date: 2/27/2004 7:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <t8T%b.3100$mx4....@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>> Sure they are...you wouldn't be complaining about "discrimination" or
>>the "wage gap" otherwise...
>
>
> The "wage gap" is getting smaller every year that goes by. AND, discrimination
> won't tend to happen in a world where half those who do the hiring are female.
Even though women continue to work fewer hours than men...hummm I
"wonder" how that is happening ?
>>
>> No actually if the woman is more qualified she'll get it, if the man is
>>more qualified, she'll still probably get it because of some employment
>>equity policy or guidelines...
>>
> Hahahahahaha! You can certainly retain that nightmare if you like. :-)
I just went through three very frustrating years trying to hire an
electrical engineer. I was *forced* to use an employment equity process
where the ONLY excluded candidates were white males. In the first
session I received 217 applications, 34 from white male who were
immediately excluded...even though 24 of them were otherwise qualified
for the job...of the remaining 183 NOT ONE was qualified... during the
second session I received 186 applications, this time 41 were from white
males who were again immediately excluded...even though this time 31
would otherwise have been qualified. In this case we *lowered* the job
requirements and 7 candidates were screened into the competition. After
the competition NOT ONE met the minimum requirements...which were the
basic qualifications set by our provincial Professional Engineering
Association for basic membership as a practicing Engineer In Training...
After nearly three years I was finally "permitted" to use a non-EE
process and to re-establish accurate qualification requirements. I held
the competition last week and have several qualified candidates and I
can finally hire an engineer...you guessed it, one of the white males
who applied in both of the past processes...so don't give ME any crap
about women not having an advantage Parg...the *problem* is there just
aren't than many who are QUALIFIED...
>> It's not a matter of "some woman somewhere" Parg but of equal numbers
>>of women everywhere...
> How is that important when the kinds of work one chooses is a choice?
It's not, it's only important in terms of the unrealistic expectations
than many women seem to have of the "value" of the work the *choose* to
do...
>If men want to value what men do more than what women traditionally choose,
>there may be more and more questions about that. :-)
As well it should be however the bottom line with any work is that
*somebody* has to decide to pay you for it...if the person/persons who
are paying for the work tend to pay more for certain types of work than
for other types of work that is their business. If women want to earn
high pay they should CHOOSE high paying jobs and stop complaining when
men do...
> I'm sure we can find a female sewer cleaner *somewhere* but we certainly won't
> find an equal number of female sewer workers.
>
> Nor need we. Perhaps we can show studies where sewer workers face much less
> stress than secretaries. :-)
Stress is one issue...but I doubt you can find any secretaries who work
in situations of even remotely similar disagreeability or danger. There
is also the fact of "supply and demand" I imagine that it's relatively
easier to find secretaries than sewer workers, consequently you have to
pay more to attract a person to the sewer worker job...again, the bottom
line is, if a woman wants to earn the relatively higher wage paid to a
sewer worker vice a secretary...all she has to do is get a job as a
sewer worker...
> Women want "equality" in the high paying and generally >pleasant, safe
> professional jobs but they certainly don't seem to want
>>"equality" in the dangerous, uncomfortable and low paying but essential
>>jobs...and this has nothing to do with men wanting to keep them out...
>
> Jobs that men do are no more "essential" than jobs women do.
Think of this the next time you're looking for a plumber to clear your
toilet...very few of whom are women because very few women want to clean
out toilets...and think about the $64/hour you have to pay him vice the
$8/hour you can hire a secretary for...
...Ken
Ken&Laura Chaddock
A few years ago Mz magazine ran an articles comparing jobs in America.
The gist of the article was that women seemed to be concentrated in the
lower paying jobs and they attributed this to discrimination and
complained that "men's" jobs were paid more BECAUSE they were men's
jobs. One which stuck out was hard rock mining which is one of the most
dangerous and physically demanding...after farming and fishing...but
they ignored the danger and back breaking nature of the work and
insisted that the reason the hard rock miners (men) were being paid more
than the clerks in the mining company office (women) was anti-female bias.
Interestingly enough, the very next month they started a series of
articles about women in non-traditional jobs. The very first featured a
woman who WAS a hard rock miner and the gist of THAT article was how
"unfair" it was that she would have to take such a dangerous and
physically demanding job to support her family...there seemed to be no
question of whether SHE was being over paid in comparison to the company
clerks !!!
...Ken
Hyerdahl1
>Message-id: <8e50c.3322$mx4....@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>
>Hyerdahl1 wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Domestic chores still 'women's work'
>>>From: Ken&Laura Chaddock chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca
>>>Date: 2/27/2004 7:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: <t8T%b.3100$mx4....@nnrp1.uunet.ca>
>
>>> Sure they are...you wouldn't be complaining about "discrimination" or
>>>the "wage gap" otherwise...
>> >
>> The "wage gap" is getting smaller every year that goes by.
AND,>discrimination
won't tend to happen in a world where half those who do the hiring are>female.
>
Even though women continue to work fewer hours than men...hummm I >"wonder" how
that is happening ?
People CHOOSE how many hours they need to work and how many hours they want to
work, and I'm not sure what that has to do with the unpaid work done 'round the
house.
>>>(edit)
>
>>> It's not a matter of "some woman somewhere" Parg but of equal numbers
>>of women everywhere...
>
>> How is that important when the kinds of work one chooses is a choice?
>
> It's not, it's only important in terms of the unrealistic expectations
>than many women seem to have of the "value" of the work the *choose* to
>do...
>
>>If men want to value what men do more than what women traditionally choose,
>>there may be more and more questions about that. :-)
>
> As well it should be however the bottom line with any work is that
>*somebody* has to decide to pay you for it...if the person/persons who
>are paying for the work tend to pay more for certain types of work than
>for other types of work that is their business. If women want to earn
>high pay they should CHOOSE high paying jobs and stop complaining when
>men do...
That is not quite the same thing as valuing what men do more than what women
do.
It seems that more and more attention is being paid to things like how many
years of education, and how much time on the job, and risk factors should all
be accounted for. Keep in mind that risk factors include things like stress,
number of accidents, etc.
>> I'm sure we can find a female sewer cleaner *somewhere* but we certainly
>won't>> find an equal number of female sewer workers.
>>
>> Nor need we. Perhaps we can show studies where sewer workers face much
>less>> stress than secretaries. :-)
>
> Stress is one issue...but I doubt you can find any secretaries who work
>in situations of even remotely similar disagreeability or danger.
I know a woman who works for the county sewer system and her job is neither
disagreeable or dangerous. :-) Perhaps men just like to pretend that jobs are
unsafe when, in fact, they are quite safe today.
There >is also the fact of "supply and demand" I imagine that it's relatively
>easier to find secretaries than sewer workers, consequently you have to
>pay more to attract a person to the sewer worker job...again
Actually, a good secretary has an education; paying someone to shovel shit
isn't all that skilled. :-) However, men who actually have administrative
postions in the 'sewer industry' are now half women. :-)
Ok, so call the grammar police; it was a joke.
, the bottom >line is, if a woman wants to earn the relatively higher wage paid
to a
>sewer worker vice a secretary...all she has to do is get a job as a >sewer
worker...
Ah, but as I already stated, shoveling shit is not as skilled as, say, working
as a paralegal, or secy. AND, secys do make more than a guy shoveling shit.
:-)
>
>> Women want "equality" in the high paying and generally >pleasant, safe>
professional jobs but they certainly don't seem to want >>"equality" in the
dangerous, uncomfortable and low paying but essential>jobs...and this has
nothing to do with men wanting to keep them out...
>>
>> Jobs that men do are no more "essential" than jobs women do.
>
Think of this the next time you're looking for a plumber to clear your
>toilet...very few of whom are women because very few women want to clean >out
toilets...and think about the $64/hour you have to pay him vice the >$8/hour
you can hire a secretary for...
Plumbers are not sewer workers. :-) AND, again, I know a lawyer who quit HIS
JOB to become a plumber. :-)
DedNdogYrs
article was how "unfair" it was that she would have to take such a dangerous
and
physically demanding job to support her family...there seemed to be no question
of whether SHE was being over paid in comparison to the company clerks !!!>
There are many no-win situations in this war between men and women. I don't
think women can or should do every job a man does, but they have been kept out
of jobs that they not only can do perfectly well but possibly could do even
better, or were better suited for, such as veterinarian or pediatrician.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
engineer. I was *forced* to use an employment equity process where the ONLY
excluded candidates were white males. In the first
session I received 217 applications, 34 from white male who were immediately
excluded...even though 24 of them were otherwise qualified for the job...of the
remaining 183 NOT ONE was qualified... during the
second session I received 186 applications, this time 41 were from white males
who were again immediately excluded...even though this time 31
would otherwise have been qualified. In this case we *lowered* the job
requirements and 7 candidates were screened into the competition. After the
competition NOT ONE met the minimum requirements...which were the basic
qualifications set by our provincial Professional Engineering Association for
years I was finally "permitted" to use a non-EE process and to re-establish
accurate qualification requirements. I held
the competition last week and have several qualified candidates and I can
finally hire an engineer...you guessed it, one of the white males who applied
in both of the past processes.>
I'm amazed. I thought getting a college degree made one qualified.
Dogs & children first.
Grizzlie Antagonist
Why do you feel that women might be better veterinarians? Are they
more like animals than men are, do you think?
> or pediatrician.
Oh, kiss my feet, Doggie!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
grizzliea...@yahoo.com
"Ladies and gentlemen - let's have a round of applause
for tonight's player of the game - AL-BERT-O CAS-S-S-
S-S-S--S-S-TILLO!"
- P.A. announcer at Grizzlie Stadium, July 4, 2003
"To me the Universe was all void of Life, of Purpose,
of Volition, even of Hostility: it was one huge, dead,
immeasurable Steam-engine, rolling on, in its dead
indifference, to grind me limb from limb. Oh, the vast,
gloomy, solitary Golgotha, and Mill of Death! Why was
the Living banished thither companionless, conscious?
Why, if there is no Devil; nay, unless the Devil is
your God?"
- Thomas Carlyle
"Populus me sibilat, at mihi plaudo."(The people
hiss at me, but I am well satisfied with myself).
- Horace, the Roman poet
Bob
In engineering professions many governments require professional
certification for the persons allowed to certify plans and
specifications. Many people can be killed if an engineer makes a
mistake and the dam, bridge, or building breaks, for example. There are
two levels, the first is "engineer in training." It's a fairly general
exam that many engineers can pass when graduating from college. The
full professional certification requires some years of experience
working in the field and a more specific examination.
Bob
No, toots. Women haven't been "kept out" of hard, dirty and dangerous
jobs. They refuse to accept them and do the work. They would rather
whine that they don't get paid as much for their easy, soft, clean
office jobs.
Bob
>
> I just went through three very frustrating years trying to hire an
> electrical engineer. I was *forced* to use an employment equity process
> where the ONLY excluded candidates were white males. In the first
> session I received 217 applications, 34 from white male who were
> immediately excluded...even though 24 of them were otherwise qualified
> for the job...of the remaining 183 NOT ONE was qualified... during the
> second session I received 186 applications, this time 41 were from white
> males who were again immediately excluded...even though this time 31
> would otherwise have been qualified. In this case we *lowered* the job
> requirements and 7 candidates were screened into the competition. After
> the competition NOT ONE met the minimum requirements...which were the
> basic qualifications set by our provincial Professional Engineering
> Association for basic membership as a practicing Engineer In Training...
> After nearly three years I was finally "permitted" to use a non-EE
> process and to re-establish accurate qualification requirements. I held
> the competition last week and have several qualified candidates and I
> can finally hire an engineer...you guessed it, one of the white males
> who applied in both of the past processes...so don't give ME any crap
> about women not having an advantage Parg...the *problem* is there just
> aren't than many who are QUALIFIED...
>
In a rational society, every rejected qualified man could sue and
collect a big pile of money. Unfortunately the government is a very
long way from equal opportunity or equal law.