Impact of abortion on men

[J]

There are many victims when a woman has an abortion. Today being
'Fathers Day' is an apppropriate time to focus on the impact it has on
men. The link below will provide information on this subject.






http://www.menandabortion.info/l0-aftermath.html









J Young
jdyo...@ymail.com

Honesty. Decency. Integrity

[Davej]

On Jun 16, 12:54 pm, J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote:
> There are many victims when a woman has an abortion.

LOL

[Mitchell Holman]

J <jdyo...@ymail.com> wrote in news:3iurr89r3j1uupobcqgqa5ihjjkiocd15a@
4ax.com:

> There are many victims when a woman has an abortion. Today being
> 'Fathers Day' is an apppropriate time to focus on the impact it has on
> men.

Men who will be spared decades of child support payments.

[Robert H]

On Jun 16, 2:09 pm, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
> J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote in news:3iurr89r3j1uupobcqgqa5ihjjkiocd15a@

Why do you think there are some men who claim to be pro-choice?

It's not about women, they don't care about her. It's about making
sure they get out of those child support payments.

It's really the only option a man has to level the equality. A woman
can simply choose to abort and get out of it. A man can't have that
option.
So the only option he has is to hope she will abort, then he can get
out of it.

Now, there are real men who will say, "I'll stand by you and step
up". They will help take care of the child.

And Happy Fathers day to all those Dad's who did step up!

[Syd M.]

On Jun 16, 1:54 pm, J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote:
> There are many victims when a woman has an abortion.

Nope. No victims of any abortions, loser.

PDW

[m...@privacy.net]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:54:13 -0700, J <jdyo...@ymail.com> wrote:

> There are many victims when a woman has an abortion. Today being
> 'Fathers Day' is an apppropriate time to focus on the impact it has on
> men. The link below will provide information on this subject.

I know many would be fathers celebrate when the bitch gets an abortion.

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:54:13 -0700

J <jdyo...@ymail.com> wrote:

> There are many victims when a woman has an abortion. Today being
> 'Fathers Day' is an apppropriate time to focus on the impact it has on
> men. The link below will provide information on this subject.
>
> http://www.menandabortion.info/l0-aftermath.html

That's one of the largest straw woman arguments I've ever encountered.

--
Fidem Turbāre, the non-existent atheist goddess
"You really think women actually want an abortion? I mean of course
you don't want one, nobody wants an abortion, that's so stupid, but if
it's necessary it's necessary, and it's nobody else's business."
-- Just 'N' Earthling, a.k.a., JstNEarthling (April 15, 2010)

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

...except for those who get shot down by fundamentalist crazy
anti-abortion protesters carrying loaded small arms.

--
Fidem Turbāre, the non-existent atheist goddess

"Those who want to be offended don't have the right to try and close
down the newspaper that offends them."
-- Christopher Hitchens ("freedom of expression must include the
license to offend" debate in 2006)

[%]

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:54:13 -0700
> J <jdyo...@ymail.com> wrote:
>
>> There are many victims when a woman has an abortion. Today being
>> 'Fathers Day' is an apppropriate time to focus on the impact it has
>> on men. The link below will provide information on this subject.
>>
>> http://www.menandabortion.info/l0-aftermath.html
>
> That's one of the largest straw woman arguments I've ever encountered.

you mean you t'aint see nothing like it a fore

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

There still are health matters to contend with, but they tend to be a
lot easier to recover from when a pregnancy was terminated in advance.

Is the father's opinion important? Most certainly, and a father who
truly respects his partner (pregnant or not) will be fully supportive of
her decision to proceed with an abortion, regardless of her reason or
lack thereof, and as a result he will enjoy a far more meaningful and
loving relationship that is founded in care, compassion, and respect.

People who love each other so truly that they support one another
instead of succumbing to peer pressure are most likely to have among
the greatest relationships, for their bond is even stronger than the
best military units (which would rank as a very close second).

--
Fidem Turbāre, the non-existent atheist goddess

"Obey the principles without being bound by them."
-- Bruce Lee

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
Robert H <cra...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2:09 pm, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
> > J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote in
> > news:3iurr89r3j1uupobcqgqa5ihjjkiocd15a@ 4ax.com:
> >
> > > There are many victims when a woman has an abortion. Today being
> > > 'Fathers Day' is an apppropriate time to focus on the impact it
> > > has on men.
> >
> >     Men who will be spared decades of child support payments.
>
> Why do you think there are some men who claim to be pro-choice?
>
> It's not about women, they don't care about her. It's about making
> sure they get out of those child support payments.

You dress this issue up as if there is some nefarious motive behind it,
but a few slices with Occam's Razor leaves us with this observation:

Financial considerations are a valid reason to not want to be a parent
because it's responsible of people to not want to create children if
they know that they can't (or won't) afford to raise them.

> It's really the only option a man has to level the equality. A woman
> can simply choose to abort and get out of it. A man can't have that
> option.

The reality is that men aren't equal to women. Why can't you be a real
man about this and accept it? So often throughout history men claim
superiority over women, but when you screw up and make a woman pregnant
you whine about it instead of taking responsibility by whining about
how "men can't have that option [to abort a foetus]." You played a
willful role in the process of creating life, fully aware of the
expectation of parents to care for any babies that result from a
pregnancy ended by a birth, so why are you suddenly being a traitor to
manhood by "wimping out?"

> So the only option he has is to hope she will abort, then he can get
> out of it.

Actually, he has many options, and some were preventive. And if the
justice system isn't biased toward religious forced-birther ideals that
advocate for the systematic enslavement of women, there may even be
some options in legal recourse available (particularly if the man had
been raped or was otherwise forced or tricked into impregnating her).

> Now, there are real men who will say, "I'll stand by you and step
> up". They will help take care of the child.

Indeed, this is the case with most fathers since it is highly likely
that the vast majority of pregnancies are intentional.

> And Happy Fathers day to all those Dad's who did step up!

Yes.

--
Fidem Turbāre, the non-existent atheist goddess

"Abortion foes never want to admit the fact they won't confront: Those
unviable tissues that they treasure are not babies by any measure."
-- Joyce Banda

[Robert H]

On Jun 18, 12:17 pm, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess"

<godd...@fidemturbare.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
>

> Robert H <craz...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On Jun 16, 2:09 pm, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
> > > J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote in
> > > news:3iurr89r3j1uupobcqgqa5ihjjkiocd15a@ 4ax.com:
>
> > > > There are many victims when a woman has an abortion. Today being
> > > > 'Fathers Day' is an apppropriate time to focus on the impact it
> > > > has on men.
>
> > >     Men who will be spared decades of child support payments.
>
> > Why do you think there are some men who claim to be pro-choice?
>
> > It's not about women, they don't care about her. It's about making
> > sure they get out of those child support payments.
>
> You dress this issue up as if there is some nefarious motive behind it,
> but a few slices with Occam's Razor leaves us with this observation:
>
> Financial considerations are a valid reason to not want to be a parent
> because it's responsible of people to not want to create children if
> they know that they can't (or won't) afford to raise them.

But yet, the woman gets an easy choice while the man is held to a
burden for 18 years.

He has no out, she does.

>
> > It's really the only option a man has to level the equality.  A woman
> > can simply choose to abort and get out of it. A man can't have that
> > option.
>
> The reality is that men aren't equal to women.  Why can't you be a real
> man about this and accept it?

Oooh...

Let me tell you something. I have four kids, and all four I raise and
take care of.
I didn't abandon them, do you understand?
I am their Dad, their protector and guide. I didn't bail.
And I stood by my wife's side, through thick and thin and still do to
this day.
I am devoted to her, 100%, do you understand?

So often throughout history men claim
> superiority over women,

Nobody is doing that, so put down your feminist sword.

>but when you screw up and make a woman pregnant

Wow, you arrogant piece of shit, you act like it's just all him that
does this.

> you whine about it instead of taking responsibility by whining about
> how "men can't have that option [to abort a foetus]."  You played a
> willful role in the process of creating life, fully aware of the
> expectation of parents to care for any babies that result from a
> pregnancy ended by a birth, so why are you suddenly being a traitor to
> manhood by "wimping out?"

You piece of shit, for 25 years I've stood by my wife's side and my
children's side.
That's not wimping out.

>
> > So the only option he has is to hope she will abort, then he can get
> > out of it.
>
> Actually, he has many options, and some were preventive.

For her too!
Gee, you forget that don't you?

 And if the
> justice system isn't biased toward religious forced-birther ideals that
> advocate for the systematic enslavement of women,

But you're perfectly fine with the enslavement of men. How "fair" of
you.

there may even be
> some options in legal recourse available (particularly if the man had
> been raped or was otherwise forced or tricked into impregnating her).
>
> > Now, there are real men who will say, "I'll stand by you and step
> > up".  They will help take care of the child.
>
> Indeed, this is the case with most fathers since it is highly likely
> that the vast majority of pregnancies are intentional.

Really? Most? I supervise over 2,000 who didn't. Where were they?
And where are their children? I'll see them in a few years too, as
they will follow right along their footsteps.

[Alex W]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 09:17:43 -0700, Fidem Turbare, the
non-existent atheist goddess wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
> Robert H <cra...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On Jun 16, 2:09�pm, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>>> J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote in
>>> news:3iurr89r3j1uupobcqgqa5ihjjkiocd15a@ 4ax.com:
>>>
>>> > There are many victims when a woman has an abortion. Today being
>>> > 'Fathers Day' is an apppropriate time to focus on the impact it
>>> > has on men.
>>>
>>> � � Men who will be spared decades of child support payments.
>>
>> Why do you think there are some men who claim to be pro-choice?
>>
>> It's not about women, they don't care about her. It's about making
>> sure they get out of those child support payments.
>
> You dress this issue up as if there is some nefarious motive behind it,
> but a few slices with Occam's Razor leaves us with this observation:
>
> Financial considerations are a valid reason to not want to be a parent
> because it's responsible of people to not want to create children if
> they know that they can't (or won't) afford to raise them.

Which is a consideration granted to couples or women but
largely denied the men. A man who might prefer an abortion
because he is already paying for children from a prior
marriage has no voice in the matter.

>
>> It's really the only option a man has to level the equality. A woman
>> can simply choose to abort and get out of it. A man can't have that
>> option.
>
> The reality is that men aren't equal to women. Why can't you be a real
> man about this and accept it? So often throughout history men claim
> superiority over women, but when you screw up and make a woman pregnant
> you whine about it instead of taking responsibility by whining about
> how "men can't have that option [to abort a foetus]." You played a
> willful role in the process of creating life, fully aware of the
> expectation of parents to care for any babies that result from a
> pregnancy ended by a birth, so why are you suddenly being a traitor to
> manhood by "wimping out?"

That "wilful role" is a pretty big claim. Accidents may
happen -- with both partners. Contraception may fail --
with both partners. Emotions and hormone may cloud rational
thought -- for both partners. Miscommunication and
misunderstanding as to procreative intents may occur with
both partners. And let's not forget wilful deception as to
procreative intent from both partners: women who say "don't
worry I'm on the pill" when they are not are as likely as
men who say "don't worry, I'll pull out before" or "don't
worry, I've had a vasectomy".

>
>> So the only option he has is to hope she will abort, then he can get
>> out of it.
>
> Actually, he has many options, and some were preventive. And if the
> justice system isn't biased toward religious forced-birther ideals that
> advocate for the systematic enslavement of women, there may even be
> some options in legal recourse available (particularly if the man had
> been raped or was otherwise forced or tricked into impregnating her).

While it is true that there are legal avenues open to men,
you also have to admit that the system is currently biased
in favour of the woman. It is very much an uphill struggle
for a man to avoid child support payments for children
conceived without his knowledge or consent, just as it is
quite difficult for him to be granted parental rights in
such cases.

[Robert H]

A very well put response!

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

The Roman Catholic Church has adamantly opposed birth control measures,
which could prevent many of these scenarios. Does injustice occur? Oh
yes, it certainly does, and it's terrible that it does. This is a
problem that requires more education about sex, rather than advocacy
for inhibition of it and anti-birth-control nonsense to at least get
headed in a direction that can at least reduce a lot of this.

> > > It's really the only option a man has to level the equality.  A
> > > woman can simply choose to abort and get out of it. A man can't
> > > have that option.
> >
> > The reality is that men aren't equal to women.  Why can't you be a
> > real man about this and accept it?
>
> Oooh...
>
> Let me tell you something. I have four kids, and all four I raise and
> take care of.
> I didn't abandon them, do you understand?
> I am their Dad, their protector and guide. I didn't bail.
> And I stood by my wife's side, through thick and thin and still do to
> this day.
> I am devoted to her, 100%, do you understand?

That's excellent, and you have my utmost respect for that. It doesn't
make you equal to women though.

> So often throughout history men claim
> > superiority over women,
>
> Nobody is doing that, so put down your feminist sword.

Put down your holy doctrine and light it on fire by denouncing and
rejecting its hateful sexist misogynistic ideals, and the feminists will
lovingly drop their swords.

> >but when you screw up and make a woman pregnant
>
> Wow, you arrogant piece of shit, you act like it's just all him that
> does this.

It is his fault if he's a rapist, and it would certainly qualify if
that rapist's intention was not to get his victim pregnant.

But when it is consentual, then I regard them as both being
responsible, and this is why I advocate for the father's opinion to be
important as well. Now, if he doesn't want be a father, and he did
take appropriate precautions ahead of time (and had her consent), then
I do lean fairly strongly toward favouring abortion in such a case,
but I also think that "time is of the essence" needs to be emphasized
very strongly so as to terminate the pregnancy as early as possible
too primarily as a matter of greater convenience to her.

> > you whine about it instead of taking responsibility by whining about
> > how "men can't have that option [to abort a foetus]."  You played a
> > willful role in the process of creating life, fully aware of the
> > expectation of parents to care for any babies that result from a
> > pregnancy ended by a birth, so why are you suddenly being a traitor
> > to manhood by "wimping out?"
>
> You piece of shit, for 25 years I've stood by my wife's side and my
> children's side.
> That's not wimping out.

Correct, that's being a responsible parent.

> > > So the only option he has is to hope she will abort, then he can
> > > get out of it.
> >
> > Actually, he has many options, and some were preventive.
>
> For her too!
> Gee, you forget that don't you?

No, I did not forget about that. There are a different set of options.

>  And if the
> > justice system isn't biased toward religious forced-birther ideals
> > that advocate for the systematic enslavement of women,
>
> But you're perfectly fine with the enslavement of men. How "fair" of
> you.

No, and it's not about fairness, it's about freedom. Both parents, in
accordance with own moral standards, are entitled to freedom which
comes with a cost: Responsibility. And the freedom to not have to
endure that responsibility is also of paramount importance, so the
choices people make when creating life carry a certain burden within
the confines of certain expectations of society, which is necessary
for the survival and well-being of all of its participants.

If people are forced to become parents when that's not what they really
want to be (e.g., because corrupt religious values were brutally forced
into the law books), then the quality of society diminishes. This is
one of the primary reasons I favour support for abortion, but also
don't ignore responsibility for those who choose to carry through.

> there may even be
> > some options in legal recourse available (particularly if the man
> > had been raped or was otherwise forced or tricked into impregnating
> > her).
> >
> > > Now, there are real men who will say, "I'll stand by you and step
> > > up".  They will help take care of the child.
> >
> > Indeed, this is the case with most fathers since it is highly likely
> > that the vast majority of pregnancies are intentional.
>
> Really? Most? I supervise over 2,000 who didn't. Where were they?
> And where are their children? I'll see them in a few years too, as
> they will follow right along their footsteps.

[snip - for brevity]

They don't represent the overall population. Unfortunately many
children learn bad habits from their parents along with the good
habits, which is a good reason to advocate for teaching kids to think
for themselves rather than to follow some wicked religious dogma.

It's a shame that there are so many people who don't take
responsibility for their own actions, and it's great that there are
responsible people like yourself who are involved in their lives and
hopefully succeeding in influencing them toward being more responsible.

--
Fidem Turbāre, the non-existent atheist goddess

"Modern Christian: Someone who can take time out from complaining
about 'welfare mothers popping out babies we have to feed' to complain
about welfare mothers getting abortions that PREVENT more babies to be
raised at public expense."
-- Paul David Wright

[Robert H]

On Jun 18, 1:35 pm, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess"

Women and men are not equal, never said they were.
BUT..on some issues, some fairness should be expected.
And this is one of them.

>
> > So often throughout history men claim
> > > superiority over women,
>
> > Nobody is doing that, so put down your feminist sword.
>
> Put down your holy doctrine and light it on fire by denouncing and
> rejecting its hateful sexist misogynistic ideals, and the feminists will
> lovingly drop their swords.

The feminist movement is dying out...trust me, not worried about their

swords.


>
> > >but when you screw up and make a woman pregnant
>
> > Wow, you arrogant piece of shit, you act like it's just all him that
> > does this.
>
> It is his fault if he's a rapist, and it would certainly qualify if
> that rapist's intention was not to get his victim pregnant.
>
> But when it is consentual, then I regard them as both being
> responsible, and this is why I advocate for the father's opinion to be
> important as well.

And I respect that.

 Now, if he doesn't want be a father, and he did
> take appropriate precautions ahead of time (and had her consent), then
> I do lean fairly strongly toward favouring abortion in such a case,
> but I also think that "time is of the essence" needs to be emphasized
> very strongly so as to terminate the pregnancy as early as possible
> too primarily as a matter of greater convenience to her.

I have no respect, none what so ever in any man who would abandon her
or his child.
And in cases like that, I don't sympathize with the man.

>
> > > you whine about it instead of taking responsibility by whining about
> > > how "men can't have that option [to abort a foetus]."  You played a
> > > willful role in the process of creating life, fully aware of the
> > > expectation of parents to care for any babies that result from a
> > > pregnancy ended by a birth, so why are you suddenly being a traitor
> > > to manhood by "wimping out?"
>
> > You piece of shit, for 25 years I've stood by my wife's side and my
> > children's side.
> > That's not wimping out.
>
> Correct, that's being a responsible parent.
>
> > > > So the only option he has is to hope she will abort, then he can
> > > > get out of it.
>
> > > Actually, he has many options, and some were preventive.
>
> > For her too!
> > Gee, you forget that don't you?
>
> No, I did not forget about that.  There are a different set of options.
>
> >  And if the
> > > justice system isn't biased toward religious forced-birther ideals
> > > that advocate for the systematic enslavement of women,
>
> > But you're perfectly fine with the enslavement of men. How "fair" of
> > you.
>
> No, and it's not about fairness, it's about freedom.

A freedom a man doesn't have.

I favor "consentual" contracts.
Where a man and a woman would both agree, if she were to get pregnant,
that if should not want the child he should have the option to walk
away, free and clear.

This is of course a decision to be made BEFORE both get into a
situation.

I agree, and I apologize for coming at you the way I did. But it
appeared to me you were assuming I was one of those who didn't take
his role as a father important. So some confusion and
miscommunication, I apologize to you for coming at you like I did.

[raven1]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT), Robert H
<cra...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Jun 16, 2:09�pm, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>> J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote in news:3iurr89r3j1uupobcqgqa5ihjjkiocd15a@
>> 4ax.com:
>>
>> > There are many victims when a woman has an abortion. Today being
>> > 'Fathers Day' is an apppropriate time to focus on the impact it has on
>> > men.
>>
>> � � Men who will be spared decades of child support payments.
>
>Why do you think there are some men who claim to be pro-choice?

Because I'll have a legitimate claim to have a say in the matter when
I have a uterus...? Pretty fucking obvious, actually.

---
raven1
aa # 1096
EAC Vice President (President in charge of vice)
BAAWA Knight

[%]

no it isn't

[Moderator]

You are a waste of bandwidth.

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article <15ndfscyxsa2t$.2cvm6mtqi281$.d...@40tude.net>,

Alex W <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 09:17:43 -0700, Fidem Turbare, the
> non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
> > Robert H <cra...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On Jun 16, 2:09 pm, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
> >>> J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote in
> >>> news:3iurr89r3j1uupobcqgqa5ihjjkiocd15a@ 4ax.com:
> >>>
> >>> > There are many victims when a woman has an abortion. Today being
> >>> > 'Fathers Day' is an apppropriate time to focus on the impact it
> >>> > has on men.
> >>>
> >>>     Men who will be spared decades of child support payments.
> >>
> >> Why do you think there are some men who claim to be pro-choice?
> >>
> >> It's not about women, they don't care about her. It's about making
> >> sure they get out of those child support payments.
> >
> > You dress this issue up as if there is some nefarious motive behind it,
> > but a few slices with Occam's Razor leaves us with this observation:
> >
> > Financial considerations are a valid reason to not want to be a parent
> > because it's responsible of people to not want to create children if
> > they know that they can't (or won't) afford to raise them.
>
> Which is a consideration granted to couples or women but
> largely denied the men. A man who might prefer an abortion
> because he is already paying for children from a prior
> marriage has no voice in the matter.

If he's already had all the children he wants or can afford, why hasn't
he had a vasectomy?

--

JD

"Osama Bin Laden is dead and GM is alive."--VP Joseph Biden

[%]

because women lie and say they're on the pill when they aren't

[Alex W]

The same question would apply to women and hysterectomies.

That aside, it would be a very radical solution to what may
well be a temporary problem. What should the guy do if next
year he gets that big payrise or his wife remarries -- shrug
and say, "sorry, it seemed like a good idea at the time"?

[Alex W]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:46:24 -0400, Attila wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 17:50:34 +0100, Alex W <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> in
> alt.abortion with message-id

> <15ndfscyxsa2t$.2cvm6mtqi281$.d...@40tude.net> wrote:
>
>>While it is true that there are legal avenues open to men,
>>you also have to admit that the system is currently biased
>>in favour of the woman. It is very much an uphill struggle
>>for a man to avoid child support payments for children
>>conceived without his knowledge or consent, just as it is
>>quite difficult for him to be granted parental rights in
>>such cases.
>

> A child exists. How and why that child exists has nothing to do with
> the fact that the child exists. And therefore must be supported until
> it is able to support itself. Otherwise the only option is to abandon
> the child to die or kill it immediately.

So far, so uncontentious.


>
> Society has determined a child is to be supported (in general) until
> the age of 18. Therefore someone must be responsible for the support
> of that child before the age of 18.

So far, no complaints.


>
> Society has determined that the responsibility for this support is to
> be shared by the parents. It has been determined that the best
> interest of the child (which is the only factor being considered)
> requires equal support from both the mother and the father.

Sorry, but no.
In a custody dispute, the mother will almost invariably be
given priority over the father. Indeed, if the couple is
unmarried or does not even cohabit, fathers will frequently
find themselves held responsible for the financial burden of
the child's upbringing *without* the commensurate rights of
parenthood. Even in cases where the mother is deemed
temporarily or permanently unfit, social services and
maternal relations will stand as good a chance of being
granted custody as the father.


>
> Any adjustment to the equal support responsibility is made on a case
> by case basis by the appropriate court.

Which, it has been shown fairly conclusively, is heavily
biased in favour of the women.


>
> The entire reason for, and basis for, the child support system is to
> provide that which is needed for the support of the child, and is
> tailored toward the best interest of the child. All else is
> secondary.

All of which sounds very cute and wise until one starts to
ponder how exactly "the best interests of the child" are
defined.

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article <yg1wzw7zjpxa.a...@40tude.net>,

You're comparing a minor outpatient procedure done under local
anesthesia with major surgery done with general anesthesia? Really?

> That aside, it would be a very radical solution to what may
> well be a temporary problem. What should the guy do if next
> year he gets that big payrise or his wife remarries -- shrug
> and say, "sorry, it seemed like a good idea at the time"?

You missed the part where I states "If he's already had all the children
he wants...." If it's an "afford" situation where there's a possibility
of being able to afford another in the future, then a different decision
can be made.

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article <u1a8248f9b3s.ok8rmtpm7h20$.d...@40tude.net>,

How else would it be defined than a decent roof over its head in as good
a neighborhood as possible, adequate nutrition, a great education.

[SkyEyes]

On Jun 19, 4:36 pm, Jeanne Douglas <hlwdj...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> In article <u1a8248f9b3s.ok8rmtpm7h20$....@40tude.net>,

Not to mention having that most necessary of all necessities, parents
who *want* it.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34 and A+ atheist
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

[Alex W]

Sorry, Jeanne, but that's simplistic. Any religious parent
will tell you -- and the courts -- that their kid has to go
to a religious school for a great education. Home-schooling
parents will tell you the same when keeping their kids out
of school altgether. And what exactly is "as good a
neighbourhood as possible" anyway? Does that mean being
with your own socio-economic, ethnic, cultural and religious
kind, or living in a suburb with good lighting and a park to
play in? Dos that mean living close to a parent's
relatives, or can it mean living in the area where the kid
grew up and was socialised?

It's not as easy as all that, Jeanne.

To serve the interests of a child also means a practical and
logistical ability to see to its needs. All too often, this
criterion will be weighted and decided in favour of the
mother, on the seist but not unjustifed) presumption that
alimony and child support will keep a mother from having to
work and therefore able to spend far more time with the
kid(s).

Lastly, if you factor in the undoubted assumption -- thanks
to an unwerving belief in the supremacy of the maternal
instinct -- that "mothers care more about their kids anyway"
and its corollary that "kids need their mothers more than
their fathers", then fathers stand hardly a chance: this
fundamental belief absolutely demands that the child be
placed with the mother.

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

I agree.

> > > So often throughout history men claim
> > > > superiority over women,
> >
> > > Nobody is doing that, so put down your feminist sword.
> >
> > Put down your holy doctrine and light it on fire by denouncing and
> > rejecting its hateful sexist misogynistic ideals, and the feminists
> > will lovingly drop their swords.
>
> The feminist movement is dying out...trust me, not worried about their
> swords.

I agree.

> > > >but when you screw up and make a woman pregnant
> >
> > > Wow, you arrogant piece of shit, you act like it's just all him
> > > that does this.
> >
> > It is his fault if he's a rapist, and it would certainly qualify if
> > that rapist's intention was not to get his victim pregnant.
> >
> > But when it is consentual, then I regard them as both being
> > responsible, and this is why I advocate for the father's opinion to
> > be important as well.
>
> And I respect that.

Excellent!

>  Now, if he doesn't want be a father, and he did
> > take appropriate precautions ahead of time (and had her consent),
> > then I do lean fairly strongly toward favouring abortion in such a
> > case, but I also think that "time is of the essence" needs to be
> > emphasized very strongly so as to terminate the pregnancy as early
> > as possible too primarily as a matter of greater convenience to her.
>
> I have no respect, none what so ever in any man who would abandon her
> or his child.
> And in cases like that, I don't sympathize with the man.

Ditto for women who abandon their children. It's a form of betrayal.

> > > > you whine about it instead of taking responsibility by whining
> > > > about how "men can't have that option [to abort a foetus]."
> > > >  You played a willful role in the process of creating life,
> > > > fully aware of the expectation of parents to care for any
> > > > babies that result from a pregnancy ended by a birth, so why
> > > > are you suddenly being a traitor to manhood by "wimping out?"
> >
> > > You piece of shit, for 25 years I've stood by my wife's side and
> > > my children's side.
> > > That's not wimping out.
> >
> > Correct, that's being a responsible parent.
> >
> > > > > So the only option he has is to hope she will abort, then he
> > > > > can get out of it.
> >
> > > > Actually, he has many options, and some were preventive.
> >
> > > For her too!
> > > Gee, you forget that don't you?
> >
> > No, I did not forget about that.  There are a different set of
> > options.
> >
> > >  And if the
> > > > justice system isn't biased toward religious forced-birther
> > > > ideals that advocate for the systematic enslavement of women,
> >
> > > But you're perfectly fine with the enslavement of men. How "fair"
> > > of you.
> >
> > No, and it's not about fairness, it's about freedom.
>
> A freedom a man doesn't have.

True, and unfortunately it's also a highly disappointing characteristic
of modern society.

> I favor "consentual" contracts.
> Where a man and a woman would both agree, if she were to get pregnant,
> that if should not want the child he should have the option to walk
> away, free and clear.
>
> This is of course a decision to be made BEFORE both get into a
> situation.

Yes. Unfortunately intellect often diminishes during the various
stages of sexual prelude, and increasingly as the act approaches, which
I regard as a particularly challenging aspect of this problem overall.

Thank you very much, and I also apologize for it coming across as it
did, and so I can't accept you taking full responsibility for this
miscommunication (ha ha, look at you now -- being all manly). You've
had my respect for a long time, and it didn't waver one bit even during
this discourse because your responses were consistently sensible.

I've got a much tougher skin than people first assume, and I've been
successful at defending myself against violence (sometimes where the
assailant had lethal weapons) on at least a few occasions, so even a
little bit of misunderstanding is more pleasurable than stressful.

Please rest assured that I have the utmost respect for men who act like
men. Some feminist extremists hate me for that, and I've called them
out for their insecurity (these instances usually didn't end well), and
yet I'm occasionally mistaken for a strong feminist even in real life
due to misconceptions and misguided stereotyping (and I make it fun).

> > --
> > Fidem Turbāre, the non-existent atheist goddess
> > "Modern Christian:  Someone who can take time out from complaining
> > about 'welfare mothers popping out babies we have to feed' to
> > complain about welfare mothers getting abortions that PREVENT more
> > babies to be raised at public expense."
> >    -- Paul David Wright

--
Fidem Turbāre, the non-existent atheist goddess

"Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking.
There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked
solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[%]

so you hate gay males , no biggy