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Praise the Enlightenment!
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M Winther
May 1, 2012, 1:48:51 PM5/1/12
to
Praise the Enlightenment! Hallelujah!
The Middle Ages? Booooh!
Facts are that the Middle Ages is the egg from which the Enlightenment
hatched. Medieval times is the Mother of the Enlightenment, not its
antagonist. It is the introverted standpoint of the Middle Ages that
has fostered our *inner locus of control*, which the average Arab and
many other ethnicities still lack today.
http://tinyurl.com/6aqyv4y
Medieval people fostered their souls and mind. They were more
interested in the spirit and less interested in worldly matters. This
has given to us our supreme capacity of focusing our minds, our
self-control, and our capacity to withstand impulses. We are still
very interested in the intellectual, the systematic, the conceptual,
like no other people on earth, especially not Third World people. This
is why we are here discussing intellectual matters, much like the
disputations of medieval scholastics and monks. They gave us this
ability. It was their work on their souls, and their work in
philosophy, theology, science and medicine, that gave rise to the
Enlightenment. It did not drop down on earth from out of the blue.
Enlightenment came about as the fruit of a long development.
Mats Winther
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/
The Middle Ages? Booooh!
Facts are that the Middle Ages is the egg from which the Enlightenment
hatched. Medieval times is the Mother of the Enlightenment, not its
antagonist. It is the introverted standpoint of the Middle Ages that
has fostered our *inner locus of control*, which the average Arab and
many other ethnicities still lack today.
http://tinyurl.com/6aqyv4y
Medieval people fostered their souls and mind. They were more
interested in the spirit and less interested in worldly matters. This
has given to us our supreme capacity of focusing our minds, our
self-control, and our capacity to withstand impulses. We are still
very interested in the intellectual, the systematic, the conceptual,
like no other people on earth, especially not Third World people. This
is why we are here discussing intellectual matters, much like the
disputations of medieval scholastics and monks. They gave us this
ability. It was their work on their souls, and their work in
philosophy, theology, science and medicine, that gave rise to the
Enlightenment. It did not drop down on earth from out of the blue.
Enlightenment came about as the fruit of a long development.
Mats Winther
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/
a425couple
May 2, 2012, 8:26:36 AM5/2/12
to
"M Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se> wrote in message...
It's good to hear from you again Mats.
Interesting concept here in your text.
Interesting cite also.
"Muslims and Westerners: The Psychological Differences
by Nicolai Sennels (May 2010)
Introduction by Nancy Kobrin, author of The Banality of Suicide Terrorism:
The Naked Truth About the Psychology of Islamic Suicide Bombing."
"Islam is the perfect religion to give justification for those who feel
under attack and to maintain the eternal "victim" fantasy."
Interesting concept here in your text.
Interesting cite also.
"Muslims and Westerners: The Psychological Differences
by Nicolai Sennels (May 2010)
Introduction by Nancy Kobrin, author of The Banality of Suicide Terrorism:
The Naked Truth About the Psychology of Islamic Suicide Bombing."
"Islam is the perfect religion to give justification for those who feel
under attack and to maintain the eternal "victim" fantasy."
Tronscend
May 2, 2012, 8:48:15 AM5/2/12
to
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> skrev i melding
news:jnr96...@news4.newsguy.com...
T
Tronscend
May 2, 2012, 8:51:10 AM5/2/12
to
"M Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se> skrev i melding
news:4fa02214$0$3804$c83e...@weathergirl-read.tele2.net...
> Praise the Enlightenment! Hallelujah!
> The Middle Ages? Booooh!
>
> Facts are that the Middle Ages is the egg from which the Enlightenment
> hatched. Medieval times is the Mother of the Enlightenment, not its
> antagonist. It is the introverted standpoint of the Middle Ages that
> has fostered our *inner locus of control*, which the average Arab and
> many other ethnicities still lack today.
> http://tinyurl.com/6aqyv4y
> Medieval people fostered their souls and mind. They were more
> interested in the spirit and less interested in worldly matters. This
> has given to us our supreme capacity of focusing our minds, our
> self-control, and our capacity to withstand impulses. We are still
> very interested in the intellectual, the systematic, the conceptual,
> like no other people on earth, especially not Third World people.
Really? No people from India included?
> The Middle Ages? Booooh!
>
> Facts are that the Middle Ages is the egg from which the Enlightenment
> hatched. Medieval times is the Mother of the Enlightenment, not its
> antagonist. It is the introverted standpoint of the Middle Ages that
> has fostered our *inner locus of control*, which the average Arab and
> many other ethnicities still lack today.
> http://tinyurl.com/6aqyv4y
> Medieval people fostered their souls and mind. They were more
> interested in the spirit and less interested in worldly matters. This
> has given to us our supreme capacity of focusing our minds, our
> self-control, and our capacity to withstand impulses. We are still
> very interested in the intellectual, the systematic, the conceptual,
> like no other people on earth, especially not Third World people.
No one from China?
I wonder how much more supreme the average westerner's capacity of focusing
the mind, self-control, and capacity to withstand impulses is compared to a
Zen monk.
T
M Winther
May 2, 2012, 11:32:48 AM5/2/12
to
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:jnr96...@news4.newsguy.com...
Middle Ages represents darkness, while the Enlightenment represents a
freeing of the mind from its imprisonment in church dogmas, etc. I am
tired of hearing this argument. In fact, forces that hold back the
human spirit might be of the good, as it allows humanity as a whole to
mature. The majority needs to catch up with the learned individuals.
Likewise, a vehicle, like a car, would be useless without its brakes.
In antiquity, there were people who were very advanced, but the
populace had a primitive worldview, and were quite supersticious. On
average, I think the antique dweller had a decidedly lower conscious
level than the medieval dweller. Just because there were brilliant
philosophers, doctors, and engineers in ancient antiquity, doesn't
mean that this knowledge belonged to everyone. In the Middle Ages
knowledge was better distributed, and they also knew that the earth is
round. So it is an illusion that modern society would have come about
faster if it weren't for the Middle Ages. Modern Europeans are shaped
by both the Middle Ages and classical antiquity. I think we are much
different from the antique dweller. On the surface we are similar, but
on the inside, modern Europeans have a medieval frame of mind.
Mats Winther
Bill
May 2, 2012, 11:38:35 AM5/2/12
to
In article <S6OdnVbb56xcsDzS...@telenor.com>,
tron...@frizurf.no says...
Or the sort of Hindu sadu who can happily hang heavy weights (Up to
10Kg) on their penis
--
William Black
When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's
time to leave.
tron...@frizurf.no says...
10Kg) on their penis
--
William Black
When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's
time to leave.
M Winther
May 2, 2012, 11:48:52 AM5/2/12
to
"Tronscend" <tron...@frizurf.no> skrev i meddelandet
news:S6OdnVbb56xcsDzS...@telenor.com...
Indeed, the Japanese have certainly learnt to focus their minds and to
exercize self-control. They even have a tendency of working themselves
to death, a phenomenon known as Karoshi. Their Middle Ages was also
quite introverted, to the effect that the serving of a cup of tea, or
a garden with a few stones and gravel, could be experienced as
sensational. The Japanese held out as long as possible against
modernity. Still today, many Japanese remain true to the medieval
traditions. Paradoxically, many Westerners think that this aspect is
the only interesting thing about Japan. So why are they so
contemptuous about European Middle Ages? I suppose it has to with
indoctrination, the ceaselessly repeated story about Galilei versus
the big old oppressive Catholic church, etc.
Mats
news:S6OdnVbb56xcsDzS...@telenor.com...
exercize self-control. They even have a tendency of working themselves
to death, a phenomenon known as Karoshi. Their Middle Ages was also
quite introverted, to the effect that the serving of a cup of tea, or
a garden with a few stones and gravel, could be experienced as
sensational. The Japanese held out as long as possible against
modernity. Still today, many Japanese remain true to the medieval
traditions. Paradoxically, many Westerners think that this aspect is
the only interesting thing about Japan. So why are they so
contemptuous about European Middle Ages? I suppose it has to with
indoctrination, the ceaselessly repeated story about Galilei versus
the big old oppressive Catholic church, etc.
Mats
AlexMilman
May 2, 2012, 3:12:47 PM5/2/12
to
On May 2, 11:48 am, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> So why are they [Westerners] so
facts and then spending a lot of energy proving that this premise is
wrong ...
> So why are they [Westerners] so
> contemptuous about European Middle Ages? I suppose it has to with
> indoctrination, the ceaselessly repeated story about Galilei versus
> the big old oppressive Catholic church, etc.
Or with you inventing a premise that does not necessarily reflects the
> indoctrination, the ceaselessly repeated story about Galilei versus
> the big old oppressive Catholic church, etc.
facts and then spending a lot of energy proving that this premise is
wrong ...
Paul F Austin
May 2, 2012, 4:26:36 PM5/2/12
to
On 5/2/2012 8:26 AM, a425couple wrote:
>
> It's good to hear from you again Mats. Interesting concept here in your
> text.
> Interesting cite also.
> "Muslims and Westerners: The Psychological Differences
> by Nicolai Sennels (May 2010)
> Introduction by Nancy Kobrin, author of The Banality of Suicide
> Terrorism: The Naked Truth About the Psychology of Islamic Suicide
> Bombing."
>
> "Islam is the perfect religion to give justification for those who feel
> under attack and to maintain the eternal "victim" fantasy."
>
>
Islam, like Christianity, is open to all. Unlike (current) Christianity,
>
> It's good to hear from you again Mats. Interesting concept here in your
> text.
> Interesting cite also.
> "Muslims and Westerners: The Psychological Differences
> by Nicolai Sennels (May 2010)
> Introduction by Nancy Kobrin, author of The Banality of Suicide
> Terrorism: The Naked Truth About the Psychology of Islamic Suicide
> Bombing."
>
> "Islam is the perfect religion to give justification for those who feel
> under attack and to maintain the eternal "victim" fantasy."
>
>
the penalty for apostasy under most variants of Islam is dire. I
disagree that Islam, as Islam, has a particular element of victimhood.
What seems to be true is that Islam, joined to traditional clan-based
social networks, creates something like an invincible cultural fortress.
Mary Habek comments as much in her _Know the Enemy: Jihadist Ideology
and the War on Terror_.
The clan-based Arab society, described as "Me and my brother against my
cousins, me and my cousins against the world", treats outsiders as
enemies as a default setting. In the context of the Dar al'Islam,
reasoned discourse with non-Muslims or apostate ex-Muslims over beliefs
is right out. A unified Christianity _used_ to be that way. An
illustration of the difference is to compare Christianity as currently
practiced and its attitude toward Bible scholarship with Islamic Koranic
scholarship. Christians accept archeological discoveries like the Dead
Sea scrolls with interest. A similar comparison of current and ancient
Korans (if the scholar points out differences) is a good way to get
declared an apostate and likely murdered.
Paul
Paul F Austin
May 2, 2012, 5:22:00 PM5/2/12
to
general level of knowledge of for instance, ordinary citizens of the
Augustian Roman Empire because history is of necessity limited to
written records that survive to the present. Similarly, we don't have
much information about ordinary citizens in Medieval Europe. So
comparisons are difficult. Of the examples you cite, round-world was a
3th Century BC notion that survived antiquity into the Middle Ages and
superstition is the outsider's view of an insider's belief system. I
invite your attention to witch-hunting... If anything, knowledge (in
Western Europe) seems more closely held than in Byzantium or in late
Antiquity.
I find the Sixteenth Century interesting because it places a late
Medieval England in contrast to Early Modern Netherlands and Spain. The
difference in finance, power networks and state management provides a
lot of indicators of what the key changes were from Medieval states to
more modern ones, both unitary states and still rather more than less
the personal properties of Princes, subject to radical change in the
_next_ century.
Paul
Topaz
May 2, 2012, 8:25:28 PM5/2/12
to
The West is the White race.
The goal of America is to destroy the White race. The
multi-culture and pluralism they push is only at the expense of
Whites. No one is trying to push multi-culture in China or Japan or
anyplace but on the Whites. And they promote racial intermarriage.
If things continue as they are the White race is doomed.
And who is doing all of this? It is the USA government and the
media, in other words the Jews.
Many Whites are traitors. They support the USA government and their
own destruction. We should look for allies. And anyone who wants to
remove the Jews from power is our ally. In the past the Japanese were
our allies. Today it is the Muslims.
Osama bin Laden
September 24th statement published in Pakistan
"I have already said that we are not hostile to the United States. We
are against the system, which makes other nations slaves of the United
States, or forces them to mortgage their political and economic
freedom. This system is totally in control of the American Jews, whose
first priority is Israel, not the United States. It is simply that the
American people are themselves the slaves of the Jews and are forced
to live according to the principles and laws laid by them. So, the
punishment should reach Israel. In fact, it
is Israel, which is giving a blood bath to innocent Muslims and the
U.S. is not uttering a single word."
http://www.ihr.org/ http://www.natvan.com
http://national-socialist-worldview.blogspot.com
Peter Jason
May 2, 2012, 9:49:01 PM5/2/12
to
For God's sake bring back the Raj and routine
famines.
M Winther
May 3, 2012, 12:02:31 AM5/3/12
to
"Paul F Austin" <pfau...@bellsouth.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:gdGdndWbBLs0ODzS...@supernews.com...
Witch-hunting is predominantly a pre-medieval and post-medieval
phenomenon. Nevertheless, the notion of witch-hunts sticks to the
Middle Ages as glue. Anyway, the notorious underestimation of the
Middle Ages could also have to do with the fact that we are trying to
repress the inner medieval aspect of ourselves, in order to adjust to
modern ideals of materialistic advancement and success, saying yes to
innovation, and space exploration, and all that. In fact, the English,
much like the Japanese, experience the serving of a cup of tea as
perfectly sensational, which proves my thesis that they are like
introverted medievals inside. They also devote a lot of time to
gardening.
Mats
news:gdGdndWbBLs0ODzS...@supernews.com...
phenomenon. Nevertheless, the notion of witch-hunts sticks to the
Middle Ages as glue. Anyway, the notorious underestimation of the
Middle Ages could also have to do with the fact that we are trying to
repress the inner medieval aspect of ourselves, in order to adjust to
modern ideals of materialistic advancement and success, saying yes to
innovation, and space exploration, and all that. In fact, the English,
much like the Japanese, experience the serving of a cup of tea as
perfectly sensational, which proves my thesis that they are like
introverted medievals inside. They also devote a lot of time to
gardening.
Mats
M Winther
May 3, 2012, 12:18:32 AM5/3/12
to
"AlexMilman" <alexm...@msn.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:bf9c9fe9-62ed-4edb...@r9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
We do not want to admit that we are medievals inside. That's why I
always get to hear this appraisal of the glorious Enlightenment and
all the "good things" that it has brought us (such as Communism,
Nazism, catastrophes like Holocaust, the World Wars, deforestation,
etc.).
Mats
news:bf9c9fe9-62ed-4edb...@r9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
always get to hear this appraisal of the glorious Enlightenment and
all the "good things" that it has brought us (such as Communism,
Nazism, catastrophes like Holocaust, the World Wars, deforestation,
etc.).
Mats
Steve Hayes
May 3, 2012, 1:03:43 AM5/3/12
to
On Thu, 3 May 2012 06:18:32 +0200, "M Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>We do not want to admit that we are medievals inside. That's why I
>always get to hear this appraisal of the glorious Enlightenment and
>all the "good things" that it has brought us (such as Communism,
>Nazism, catastrophes like Holocaust, the World Wars, deforestation,
>etc.).
Time to read:
>We do not want to admit that we are medievals inside. That's why I
>always get to hear this appraisal of the glorious Enlightenment and
>all the "good things" that it has brought us (such as Communism,
>Nazism, catastrophes like Holocaust, the World Wars, deforestation,
>etc.).
Saul, John Ralston. 1992. Voltaire's bastards: the dictatorship
of reason in the West. New York: The Free Press.
ISBN: 0-02-927725-6
Dewey: 909.09821
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
For information about why crossposting is (usually) good, and multiposting (nearly always) bad, see:
http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/unice.htm#xpost
M Winther
May 3, 2012, 1:41:49 AM5/3/12
to
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@telkomsa.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:5a44q7h7lkblgsd3m...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 3 May 2012 06:18:32 +0200, "M Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se>
> wrote:
>
>>We do not want to admit that we are medievals inside. That's why I
>>always get to hear this appraisal of the glorious Enlightenment and
>>all the "good things" that it has brought us (such as Communism,
>>Nazism, catastrophes like Holocaust, the World Wars, deforestation,
>>etc.).
>
> Time to read:
>
> Saul, John Ralston. 1992. Voltaire's bastards: the dictatorship
> of reason in the West. New York: The Free Press.
> ISBN: 0-02-927725-6
> Dewey: 909.09821
>
>
This book is thoroughly reviewed at Amazon.com:
> wrote:
>
>>We do not want to admit that we are medievals inside. That's why I
>>always get to hear this appraisal of the glorious Enlightenment and
>>all the "good things" that it has brought us (such as Communism,
>>Nazism, catastrophes like Holocaust, the World Wars, deforestation,
>>etc.).
>
> Time to read:
>
> Saul, John Ralston. 1992. Voltaire's bastards: the dictatorship
> of reason in the West. New York: The Free Press.
> ISBN: 0-02-927725-6
> Dewey: 909.09821
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/Voltaires-Bastards-Dictatorship-Reason-West/dp/0679748199
"...He goes on to explore what he takes to be the fundamental
incompatibility between democracy and contemporary rational
governments. Because rationalism has been reduced to a system of
management and administration it is at bottom incapable of guiding
human affairs, he insists."
(http://www.scottlondon.com/reviews/saul.html)
The acute economical crises that have befallen us, since he wrote this
book, are facts that bolster his argument. It is becoming more and
more evident that politicians are subordinated to the "market forces",
and there seems to be a conflict between democracy as an institution,
and "rational" government.
Rationalism implies repression of feeling. Our civilisation has opted
for a collective neurosis that somehow builds on the repression of
feeling. We aim to be rational in all quarters of life. We follow
principles instead of listening to our heart. This is something that
David Brooks has noted, too:
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_brooks_the_social_animal.html
Mats Winther
Bill
May 3, 2012, 4:01:55 AM5/3/12
to
In article <ito3q7hf6qo1fa8bn...@4ax.com>, p...@jostle.com
says...
says...
>
> >>
> >> I wonder how much more supreme the average westerner's capacity of focusing
> >> the mind, self-control, and capacity to withstand impulses is compared to a
> >> Zen monk.
> >
> >Or the sort of Hindu sadu who can happily hang heavy weights (Up to
> >10Kg) on their penis
>
>
> I GUESS THAT'S THE REASON FOR Indian FERCUNDITY.
> For God's sake bring back the Raj and routine
> famines.
Now I wonder what brought on that rather irrational and racist comment.
> >>
> >> I wonder how much more supreme the average westerner's capacity of focusing
> >> the mind, self-control, and capacity to withstand impulses is compared to a
> >> Zen monk.
> >
> >Or the sort of Hindu sadu who can happily hang heavy weights (Up to
> >10Kg) on their penis
>
>
> I GUESS THAT'S THE REASON FOR Indian FERCUNDITY.
> For God's sake bring back the Raj and routine
> famines.
John Briggs
May 3, 2012, 6:44:31 AM5/3/12
to
On 03/05/2012 09:01, Bill wrote:
> In article<ito3q7hf6qo1fa8bn...@4ax.com>, p...@jostle.com
> says...
>>
>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how much more supreme the average westerner's capacity of focusing
>>>> the mind, self-control, and capacity to withstand impulses is compared to a
>>>> Zen monk.
>>>
>>> Or the sort of Hindu sadu who can happily hang heavy weights (Up to
>>> 10Kg) on their penis
>>
>>
>> I GUESS THAT'S THE REASON FOR Indian FERCUNDITY.
>> For God's sake bring back the Raj and routine
>> famines.
>
> Now I wonder what brought on that rather irrational and racist comment.
The poster?
> In article<ito3q7hf6qo1fa8bn...@4ax.com>, p...@jostle.com
> says...
>>
>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how much more supreme the average westerner's capacity of focusing
>>>> the mind, self-control, and capacity to withstand impulses is compared to a
>>>> Zen monk.
>>>
>>> Or the sort of Hindu sadu who can happily hang heavy weights (Up to
>>> 10Kg) on their penis
>>
>>
>> I GUESS THAT'S THE REASON FOR Indian FERCUNDITY.
>> For God's sake bring back the Raj and routine
>> famines.
>
> Now I wonder what brought on that rather irrational and racist comment.
--
John Briggs
AlexMilman
May 3, 2012, 9:09:38 AM5/3/12
to
On May 3, 12:18 am, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> "AlexMilman" <alexmil...@msn.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:bf9c9fe9-62ed-4edb...@r9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
'medieval inside' means.
>That's why I
> always get to hear this appraisal of the glorious Enlightenment
Does anybody force you to listen?
> and
> all the "good things" that it has brought us (such as Communism,
> Nazism, catastrophes like Holocaust, the World Wars, deforestation,
> etc.).
You are contradicting yourself: if we are 'medievals inside' and,
being 'medieval' is glorious, then you have to credit 'medievalism'
with all things you listed above (including Enlightenment).
> "AlexMilman" <alexmil...@msn.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:bf9c9fe9-62ed-4edb...@r9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On May 2, 11:48 am, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> >> So why are they [Westerners] so
> >> contemptuous about European Middle Ages? I suppose it has to with
> >> indoctrination, the ceaselessly repeated story about Galilei versus
> >> the big old oppressive Catholic church, etc.
> >Or with you inventing a premise that does not necessarily reflects
> >the
> >facts and then spending a lot of energy proving that this premise is
> >wrong ...
>
> We do not want to admit that we are medievals inside.
Totally meaningless statement unless you can clearly define what
>
> >> So why are they [Westerners] so
> >> contemptuous about European Middle Ages? I suppose it has to with
> >> indoctrination, the ceaselessly repeated story about Galilei versus
> >> the big old oppressive Catholic church, etc.
> >Or with you inventing a premise that does not necessarily reflects
> >the
> >facts and then spending a lot of energy proving that this premise is
> >wrong ...
>
> We do not want to admit that we are medievals inside.
'medieval inside' means.
>That's why I
> always get to hear this appraisal of the glorious Enlightenment
> and
> all the "good things" that it has brought us (such as Communism,
> Nazism, catastrophes like Holocaust, the World Wars, deforestation,
> etc.).
being 'medieval' is glorious, then you have to credit 'medievalism'
with all things you listed above (including Enlightenment).
M Winther
May 3, 2012, 11:03:12 AM5/3/12
to
"AlexMilman" <alexm...@msn.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:5fb9e83b-b41c-48c0...@35g2000yqq.googlegroups.com...
amputation of the medieval mind-set, with a resultant regress to an
antique frame of mind. It means the reawakening of Imperium Romanum.
So it came to pass what all the modern proponents of the antique
ideals always have wanted, namely the reawakening of ancient antiquity
and its marble statues, its ideals of power and beauty. Out through
the window went the medieval ideals of interiority, and all the
Christian virtues.
So it is modernity that provokes this development, by its constant
hammering of all the medieval virtues in our psychology and in
history.
Mats Winther
AlexMilman
May 3, 2012, 1:18:24 PM5/3/12
to
On May 3, 11:03 am, "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> "AlexMilman" <alexmil...@msn.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:5fb9e83b-b41c-48c0...@35g2000yqq.googlegroups.com...
Of course, they are but this is (a) in a contradiction with your
statement that I quoted and (b) had nothing to do with Enlightenment
(except, of course in your mind).
>It represents an
> amputation of the medieval mind-set,
With you failing to define clearly what this mind set amounted to,
statement above does not make sense.
> with a resultant regress to an
> antique frame of mind.
Again, definition is needed.
>It means the reawakening of Imperium Romanum.
Taking into an account that there was more than one 'empire' in
existence during the Middle Ages and that quite a few of them could
not be traced in any meaningful way to the Roman Empire, this
statement does not hold the water.
> So it came to pass what all the modern proponents of the antique
> ideals
Any serious proof to the statement that Hitler or Stalin had been
proponents of the 'antique ideals'?
>always have wanted, namely the reawakening of ancient antiquity
As I understand, 'antiquity' is ancient more or less by definition.
> and its marble statues,
> its ideals of power and beauty.
If I understand you correctly, all 3 items are bad but I'm not quite
clear how Communism or Nazism fits into 'beauty' part. It is also not
quite clear if the statues have to be marble to be bad (at least some
of the medieval statues had been made of this material, OTOH, both
Nazies and Commies quite often had been using more modern ones like
concrete).
> Out through
> the window went the medieval ideals of interiority, and all the
> Christian virtues.
>
Yes, I remember you writing on this interiority subject quite
extensively but not very convincingly.
> So it is modernity that provokes this development, by its constant
> hammering of all the medieval virtues
It does? How nasty of it! You should march on Washington (or any other
capital of you preference) with a slogan "Down with modernity!".
> in our psychology and in
> history.
Well, turn off your radio and TV, don't use internet and don't read
the books that may distress you. Also, drink a lot of alcohol on a
daily basis. As a result, you'll start feeling much more secure in not
time.
> "AlexMilman" <alexmil...@msn.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:5fb9e83b-b41c-48c0...@35g2000yqq.googlegroups.com...
statement that I quoted and (b) had nothing to do with Enlightenment
(except, of course in your mind).
>It represents an
> amputation of the medieval mind-set,
statement above does not make sense.
> with a resultant regress to an
> antique frame of mind.
>It means the reawakening of Imperium Romanum.
existence during the Middle Ages and that quite a few of them could
not be traced in any meaningful way to the Roman Empire, this
statement does not hold the water.
> So it came to pass what all the modern proponents of the antique
> ideals
proponents of the 'antique ideals'?
>always have wanted, namely the reawakening of ancient antiquity
> and its marble statues,
> its ideals of power and beauty.
clear how Communism or Nazism fits into 'beauty' part. It is also not
quite clear if the statues have to be marble to be bad (at least some
of the medieval statues had been made of this material, OTOH, both
Nazies and Commies quite often had been using more modern ones like
concrete).
> Out through
> the window went the medieval ideals of interiority, and all the
> Christian virtues.
>
extensively but not very convincingly.
> So it is modernity that provokes this development, by its constant
> hammering of all the medieval virtues
capital of you preference) with a slogan "Down with modernity!".
> in our psychology and in
> history.
the books that may distress you. Also, drink a lot of alcohol on a
daily basis. As a result, you'll start feeling much more secure in not
time.
M Winther
May 4, 2012, 12:25:21 AM5/4/12
to
"M Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se> skrev i meddelandet
news:4fa02214$0$3804$c83e...@weathergirl-read.tele2.net...
Copernicus, Kepler och Galileo were were indebted to medieval
scientists like Nikolas Oersme (dead 1382), Jean Buridan (1300-1360),
William Heytesbury (ca 1313-1372), and Nicolaus of Cusa (1401-1464).
In fact, historian of science, James Hannam, says that the Middle Ages
provided the foundation of modern science. The medieveal invention
named "the university" played an important role. So did belief in a
rational and faithful God who had created laws of nature that didn't
change erratically, and which it was possible to study. That's why the
church has always supported the study of nature. By studying God's
creation we learn about God's thoughts. Even Einstein was fond of this
notion. So the ardent belief in laws of nature derives from Christian
theology and its view of God and creation. What is not generally known
is that the Big Bang theory was invented by theorists at the Vatican.
They tried to convince Einstein of its validity, who rejected the
theory out of hand, until empirical evidence proved it correct (Edwin
Hubble's discovery of an expanding universe).
Galileo, who was a believing Christian, did not oppose Christianity or
the church. He criticized the theories of the earliest scientist,
namely Aristotle. Many keystones of modern science were created during
medieval times, such as Heytesbury's description of av accelerating
objects and Buridan's impetus theory on movement. Important inventions
made life easier, which increased productivity and improved the
standards of living, such as the iron plough, spectacles, and the
horse shoe.
So what is the origin of the modern myth that Christianity and the
Middle Ages have stood in stark opposition to science and development?
Historians of science David Lindberg och Ronald Numbers say that two
works from the 19th century are responsible for many of the
misconceptions, namely John William Draper, "History of the Conflict
between Religion and Science" (1876) and Andrew Dickson White, "A
History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom"
(1896). Draper is responsible for the notorious disinformation that
medievals thought the earth was flat. These authors created the
metaphor of war between science and faith, and many of the
misconceptions that propagate to this day.
Mats Winther
news:4fa02214$0$3804$c83e...@weathergirl-read.tele2.net...
scientists like Nikolas Oersme (dead 1382), Jean Buridan (1300-1360),
William Heytesbury (ca 1313-1372), and Nicolaus of Cusa (1401-1464).
In fact, historian of science, James Hannam, says that the Middle Ages
provided the foundation of modern science. The medieveal invention
named "the university" played an important role. So did belief in a
rational and faithful God who had created laws of nature that didn't
change erratically, and which it was possible to study. That's why the
church has always supported the study of nature. By studying God's
creation we learn about God's thoughts. Even Einstein was fond of this
notion. So the ardent belief in laws of nature derives from Christian
theology and its view of God and creation. What is not generally known
is that the Big Bang theory was invented by theorists at the Vatican.
They tried to convince Einstein of its validity, who rejected the
theory out of hand, until empirical evidence proved it correct (Edwin
Hubble's discovery of an expanding universe).
Galileo, who was a believing Christian, did not oppose Christianity or
the church. He criticized the theories of the earliest scientist,
namely Aristotle. Many keystones of modern science were created during
medieval times, such as Heytesbury's description of av accelerating
objects and Buridan's impetus theory on movement. Important inventions
made life easier, which increased productivity and improved the
standards of living, such as the iron plough, spectacles, and the
horse shoe.
So what is the origin of the modern myth that Christianity and the
Middle Ages have stood in stark opposition to science and development?
Historians of science David Lindberg och Ronald Numbers say that two
works from the 19th century are responsible for many of the
misconceptions, namely John William Draper, "History of the Conflict
between Religion and Science" (1876) and Andrew Dickson White, "A
History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom"
(1896). Draper is responsible for the notorious disinformation that
medievals thought the earth was flat. These authors created the
metaphor of war between science and faith, and many of the
misconceptions that propagate to this day.
Mats Winther
Tronscend
May 4, 2012, 7:56:03 AM5/4/12
to
news:4fa1576d$0$3806$c83e...@weathergirl-read.tele2.net...
Tnis is an easy one ...
. Still today, many Japanese remain true to the medieval
> traditions. Paradoxically, many Westerners think that this aspect is the
> only interesting thing about Japan.
It has aspects of being a living history lab.
That is interesting.
So why are they so
> contemptuous about European Middle Ages?
Because, while interesting, one would not want to live there.
T
Tnis is an easy one ...
. Still today, many Japanese remain true to the medieval
> traditions. Paradoxically, many Westerners think that this aspect is the
> only interesting thing about Japan.
That is interesting.
So why are they so
> contemptuous about European Middle Ages?
T
AlexMilman
May 4, 2012, 5:14:05 PM5/4/12
to
On May 4, 7:56 am, "Tronscend" <tronf...@frizurf.no> wrote:
> "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> skrev i meldingnews:4fa1576d$0$3806$c83e...@weathergirl-read.tele2.net...
like to live at the time of Enlightenment either: bad dentistry, lice,
bed bugs, cockroaches, almost complete absence of the toilet
facilities, etc. :-)
> "M Winther" <m...@swipnet.se> skrev i meldingnews:4fa1576d$0$3806$c83e...@weathergirl-read.tele2.net...
>
> Tnis is an easy one ...
>
> . Still today, many Japanese remain true to the medieval
>
> > traditions. Paradoxically, many Westerners think that this aspect is the
> > only interesting thing about Japan.
>
> It has aspects of being a living history lab.
> That is interesting.
>
> So why are they so
>
> > contemptuous about European Middle Ages?
>
> Because, while interesting, one would not want to live there.
Probably it would make him feel better if you said that one would not
> Tnis is an easy one ...
>
> . Still today, many Japanese remain true to the medieval
>
> > traditions. Paradoxically, many Westerners think that this aspect is the
> > only interesting thing about Japan.
>
> It has aspects of being a living history lab.
> That is interesting.
>
> So why are they so
>
> > contemptuous about European Middle Ages?
>
> Because, while interesting, one would not want to live there.
like to live at the time of Enlightenment either: bad dentistry, lice,
bed bugs, cockroaches, almost complete absence of the toilet
facilities, etc. :-)
M Winther
May 6, 2012, 2:05:24 AM5/6/12
to
"M Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se> skrev i meddelandet
news:4fa35a3a$0$3799$c83e...@weathergirl-read.tele2.net...
Hannam, J. (2011). The Genesis of Science: How the Christian Middle
Ages Launched the Scientific Revolution.
Lindberg,D. & Numbers, R. (1986). God and Nature – Historical essays
on the encounter between Christianity and Science.
Lindberg, D. Galileo (2009). Galileo Goes to Jail and Other Myths
about Science and Religion.
W.
Odysseus
May 10, 2012, 2:02:25 AM5/10/12
to
In article <4fa35a3a$0$3799$c83e...@weathergirl-read.tele2.net>,
"M Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se> wrote:
<snip>
> Copernicus, Kepler och Galileo were were indebted to medieval
> scientists like Nikolas Oersme (dead 1382), Jean Buridan (1300-1360),
> William Heytesbury (ca 1313-1372), and Nicolaus of Cusa (1401-1464).
And Leonardo of Pisa (fl.1200), whose introduction of Arabic numerals
made their calculations practicable ... not to mention Al-Khwarizmi
(C.IX), Al-Biruni (fl.1000), Al-Tusi (C.XIII), Ali Qushji (C.XV) _et
al._...
Whence "och"?
--
Odysseus
"M Winther" <ml...@swipnet.se> wrote:
<snip>
> Copernicus, Kepler och Galileo were were indebted to medieval
> scientists like Nikolas Oersme (dead 1382), Jean Buridan (1300-1360),
> William Heytesbury (ca 1313-1372), and Nicolaus of Cusa (1401-1464).
made their calculations practicable ... not to mention Al-Khwarizmi
(C.IX), Al-Biruni (fl.1000), Al-Tusi (C.XIII), Ali Qushji (C.XV) _et
al._...
Whence "och"?
--
Odysseus
M Winther
May 10, 2012, 2:52:14 AM5/10/12
to
"Odysseus" <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> skrev i meddelandet
news:odysseus1479-at-BB...@news.eternal-september.org...
('Och', pronounced "ock", is Swedish for 'and'. I sometimes formulate
myself in Swedish first.)
Other important medieval scientists are the persians Al-Jabir (Geber)
(d. 776) who made important contributions to chemistry, and Avicenna
(Ibn Sina) (d. 1037). (Those who payhomage to the great Arabs in
history shouldn't use these Persians as examples.) The Swiss Philippus
Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim (Paracelsus) (1493-1541)
was an occultist, but he made great contributions in medicine. He was
among the first, perhaps the first, to think in terms of psychological
unconscious motives:
"Thus, the cause of the disease chorea lasciva is a mere opinion and
idea, assumed by imagination, affecting those who believe in such a
thing. This opinion and idea are the origin of the disease both in
children and adults. In children the case is also imagination, based
not on thinking but on perceiving, because they have heard or seen
something. The reason is this: their sight and hearing are so strong
that unconsciously they have fantasies about what they have seen or
heard." (Von den Krankeiten).
The capacity of interiority was cultivated during the European Middle
Ages, when it decidedly took root in the human soul. I argue that it
is essential to the success of science and technology. I have listened
to the interview program "Snillen spekulerar" (in English) after the
Nobel prize awards. Many of the laureates are, in effect, monks and
nuns who are completely devoted to their work. "-What are you going to
do now", they are questioned. "-Back to the laboratory; back to work,
preferably twelwe hours a day". Their laboratory or their study is
their monastery cell which is the place where they feel happy and
where they are completely devoted to investigating "God's thoughts",
the laws of the universe.
Mats Winther
news:odysseus1479-at-BB...@news.eternal-september.org...
myself in Swedish first.)
Other important medieval scientists are the persians Al-Jabir (Geber)
(d. 776) who made important contributions to chemistry, and Avicenna
(Ibn Sina) (d. 1037). (Those who payhomage to the great Arabs in
history shouldn't use these Persians as examples.) The Swiss Philippus
Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim (Paracelsus) (1493-1541)
was an occultist, but he made great contributions in medicine. He was
among the first, perhaps the first, to think in terms of psychological
unconscious motives:
"Thus, the cause of the disease chorea lasciva is a mere opinion and
idea, assumed by imagination, affecting those who believe in such a
thing. This opinion and idea are the origin of the disease both in
children and adults. In children the case is also imagination, based
not on thinking but on perceiving, because they have heard or seen
something. The reason is this: their sight and hearing are so strong
that unconsciously they have fantasies about what they have seen or
heard." (Von den Krankeiten).
The capacity of interiority was cultivated during the European Middle
Ages, when it decidedly took root in the human soul. I argue that it
is essential to the success of science and technology. I have listened
to the interview program "Snillen spekulerar" (in English) after the
Nobel prize awards. Many of the laureates are, in effect, monks and
nuns who are completely devoted to their work. "-What are you going to
do now", they are questioned. "-Back to the laboratory; back to work,
preferably twelwe hours a day". Their laboratory or their study is
their monastery cell which is the place where they feel happy and
where they are completely devoted to investigating "God's thoughts",
the laws of the universe.
Mats Winther
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