Nassssty "Holocaust denier" Thought Criminal responds yet again!
Dan Gannon
>From: d...@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
>Subject: Re: Moderated yes, moderated no.
>Date: 21 Sep 93 10:04:16 GMT
>
>pa...@kub.nl (J.J. Paijmans) writes:
>
># Of course you would so to speak 'lose' a lot of the more interesting
># war-propaganda stuff, like the soap story or lamp shades, but on the
># other hand you could concentrate on intellectually satisfying work of
># looking anew to facts and perhaps flushing out other propagandastuff
># without being tarred and feathered by the McVay-crowd.
>
>Why do you keep insisting, for instance, that the lamp shades from
>human skin story is untrue, while it is widely accepted it is true,
>and there are quite a few films showing them?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but this is why:
Someone should tell Deborah -- she won't listen to me -- about the
video tape showing general Lucius D. Clay, Military Governor of the
U.S. Occupation Zone of Germany during 1947-49 explaining to a
conference sponsored by the George C. Marshall Research Foundation at
Lexington Virginia that the infamous human-skin lamp shades of
Buchenwald were in fact made of "goat" skin.
[Excerpted from "RUB-A-DUB-DUB: Notes on the Jewish-Soap Scam",
by Bradley R. Smith, which I have posted to the net previously.]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: wmcg...@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>Subject: Re: Legal Persecution of Revisionists Worse Than Stalinist Law!
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 19:47:53 GMT
>
>Gannon,
>
>Why are you posting new material here when you have failed to
>answer all the reasonable inquiries about your former posts?
As I have explained before, I no longer have time to personally
respond to all of the "inquiries" directed my way. I do my best to post
well-referenced articles which DO answer whatever inquiries I can, however.
As only one person, who has a very busy life, for the most part all I
can do right now is to try to promote the free flow of information in the
face of dramatic and often deliberate suppression and falsehood. So the
short answer to your question is: I don't have enough time to do otherwise
right now, and I grew tired of trying to debate with the likes of Ken McVay
and Danny Keren, et al. It was hopeless! So at least I can do my best to
keep providing "taboo" information to those who have open, rational minds.
More and more who also have courage are coming to help in this struggle for
truth and freedom.
>Why won't you answer my questions?
I don't have time to answer all questions, nor even to read all of the
messages posted on the subject, but I do as much as I can. You must
understand how exasperating and tiring it is for me to read the same bunch
of lies, personal attacks and half-truths over and over and over. I have
decided not to waste my time on writing refutations of those things any
more, and I am now taking a more proactive stance, rather than playing the
little "games" that certain anti-revisionists are always quick to set up
for me or any other "heritical" revisionist. I have better things to do,
and more important things to do, than to let them waste all of my time in
such a manner any more.
>Did you post the Luftl report with the knowledge that he had already
>retracted it?
No, I was not aware he had "retracted" it. It doesn't matter anyway,
as what he wrote stands scientifically on its own, whether he "retracted"
it or not. Now if he can scientifically demonstrate ERRORS in it, and
DISPROVE all of it, that would be another matter. But just because someone
-- a scientist, for example -- is forced in an environment of intellectual
non-freedom to "retract" arguments and/or statements of fact that they have
made, does not mean that what they said in the first place was not true!
Surely you understand that.
When I read that Walter Luftl (Austria's top engineer) had within
months "retracted" his "Politically Incorrect" scientific report which
stated that the "gas chambers" were fraudulent, I was both alarmed and at
the same time mildly amused. It sounds too much like something straight
out of George Orwell's book, _1984_. (His house was even raided...torn
apart and searched for "Thought Crimes" he may have dared to write down,
you know that?!?) You know, the book in which (among other things) Orwell
described how "Thought Criminals" were made to "confess" to all their
"crimes", and then executed before they contradicted their phony
"confessions"... ("Shot while their minds were still clean", I believe was
one of the phrases used in the book.) That is also precisely what happened
to many German "war criminals" at the infamous Nuremberg trials...
Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess for example, who was hung. In the
particular case of Rudolf Hoess, it is now known that a British guard who
had custody of him bragged in his diary about having tortured him, and
having threatened harm to his family in order to extract a "confession" out
of him. This so-called "confession" has been used for decades as one of
the strongest "proofs" of the "Holocaust story", and some still try to cite
it as valid! (Many outrageous things are still claimed to be true and
valid... That's why there are "Holocaust revisionists" -- people who are
courageous enough to point out that they are NOT true and are NOT valid!
Of course we are immediately branded as dangerous, evil Thought Criminals
... "hate mongers"... "Nazis"... "genocidal psychopaths"... "Holocaust
deniers"... "Jew haters"/"anti-Semites"... public enemy number one... Which
also fits _1984_ to a tee!)
I suspect it is not mere coincidence that George Orwell was a ranking
member of the British Psychological Warfare Executive during World War II.
He saw and understood what went on, but could not write directly about it
in his book, because it was top secret at the time and he would undoubtedly
have been suddenly silenced in some manner, and all copies of his book
destroyed, etc. So he wrote symbolically of it in his now-famous book,
_1984_. Only now are some of the records of the things that George Orwell
knew about beginning to be de-classified. See the article at the end of
this post, for example.
>What about Pressac's book on the Nazi gas chambers? Can you refute any of
>it?
Yes. Just this evening I posted two articles that refute various
aspects of Pressac's claims, and I will soon post more critiques of
Pressac's claims.
>Why can't you behave like a human being and engage in back-and-forth
>debate?
I am behaving like a human being, thank you. I don't need to be
de-humanized, thank you. And again for the record, I am not a "Nazi", nor
an "anti-Semite", nor any other name-brand of Thought Criminal! I am a
thinking, idealistic individual. "Killing the messenger" is so popular and
widely accepted though, I know...
>You are really beginning to piss me off. If you won't answer my questions
>about Luftl and Pressac, I am going to put all your posts on my kill list.
Sorry to piss you off. Maybe I missed some of your questions. What
questions would you like me to answer, if any, that I have not already
answered?
>People who won't defend or respond to fair questions about their posts
>here are beneath contempt.
Oh.
Below is that article I was referring to. It's not very long. I
recently posted it to the net, but am including it here anyway in case you
or anyone else reading this message may have missed it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From _The Journal of Historical Review_, Vol. 13, Number 5 (Sept./Oct. 1993):
HOW FAKE WAR PROPAGANDA STORIES ARE MANUFACTURED
T.J.S.L./S.B. SECRET.
~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
Suggestions for Rumours of a Military Nature submitted through
the Inter-Service Security Board for the current week.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
____________________________________________________________________________
| | |
Serial| Suggestions. |Submitted| Remarks by
No. | | by | I.S.S.B.
______|______________________________________________|_________|____________
| | |
A. | GENERAL. Note: This rumour is designed to | |
| ~~~~~~~ suggest that although the Germans | |
| may have a peace offer in mind, | |
| (a) such offers are never genuine, | |
| (b) the British have no intention | |
| of negotiating. | |
| 1. The reason the Germans want peace is | |
| that they have worked out that it will | |
| require 200 divisions to hold the Russian | |
| front in winter. Fifteen divisions are | |
| proving too few even for the Russian | | No security
| guerrillas. | P.I.D. | objection.
| | |
B. | GERMANY. Note: Nos 1-7 are designed to | |
| ~~~~~~~ stress the horrors of the Russian | |
| winter and are aimed at German | |
| women, particularly the older | |
| generation. | |
| 1. The wolves in White Russia track | |
| ambulance columns by the smell of blood. | " | "
| | |
| 2. Two ambulance columns from the East | |
| Front ran out of petrol in a forest in White | |
| Russia and were besieged by wolves for three | |
| days. When they were rescued only the | |
| guards were left alive and the only doctor | |
| had gone mad. | " | "
| | |
| 3. The Wehrmacht have realised that heavy | |
| casualties among specialist troops are | |
| killing off all their numbers and have | |
| insisted that men over 40 should be drafted | |
| into shock battalions. | " | "
| | |
| 4. Now that the East Front war has become | |
| less mechanised the last war soldier has | |
| come more into his own and is getting more | |
| of the fighting. | " | "
| | |
| 5. At a certain point on the homeward | |
| journey guards and attendants on German | |
| hospital trains are ordered to put their gas | |
| masks on. The train then enters a tunnel | |
| where it stays for half an hour. When it | |
| comes out the wounded are dead. | " | "
| Note. This rumour was suggested by the | |
| ~~~~ J.I.C. | |
| | |
| 6. There are special words in some of the | |
| more remote German hospitals for noseless, | |
| earless, toeless and fingerless soldiers -- | |
| frostbite cases. | " | "
Manufactured "rumors," designed to mislead and demoralize the German public
during the Second World War, were proposed to the British War Cabinet's
Joint Intelligence Sub-Committee in October 1941. "Rumor" number five,
which was suggested by the Joint Intelligence Committee, is a story that
the Germans were using poison gas to secretly kill off their own wounded
soldiers.
This document, and other records of this Committee, were kept secret
until earlier this year, when they were released to the Public Record
Office in London. This document is reproduced in facsimile from _The
Independant Magazine_ (London), March 27, 1993, p. 59. [Format changed
slightly in the process of adapting the facsimile to computer ASCII form.
Also, the letters T.J.S.L./S.B. in the top left may be slightly incorrect
because those letters were not entirely legible in the facsimile. -Maynard]
[end of article]
[Reprinted by permission from _The Journal of Historical Review_, P.O. Box
1306, Torrance, CA 90505, USA. Subscription rate: $40 per year, domestic.
$50 per year, foreign.]
This article was manually transcribed by the System Operator of the
"Banished CPU" computer bulletin board system, which is located in
Portland, Oregon, U.S.A.
Banished CPU supports Freedom of Speech!
___________________________________________________________
| |
| For 300-9600 bps (3 lines w/V.32) call: (503) 232-5783 |
| For 14400 bps (2 lines w/V.32bis) call: (503) 232-6566 |
|___________________________________________________________|
Sysop: Maynard "the Main Nerd"
[end of file]
-Dan Gannon
--
dga...@techbook.COM Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-0636 (1200/2400, N81)
Danny Keren
dga...@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon)
# Sorry to burst your bubble, but this is why:
# Someone should tell Deborah -- she won't listen to me -- about the
# video tape showing general Lucius D. Clay, Military Governor of the
# U.S. Occupation Zone of Germany during 1947-49 explaining to a
# conference sponsored by the George C. Marshall Research Foundation at
# conference sponsored by the George C. Marshall Research Foundation at
# Buchenwald were in fact made of "goat" skin.
This assertions is rejected by each and every Holocaust historian I
consulted or read. I will re-check, and write the "Institute of
Conetmporary History" in Munich. They are the foremost German
experts on the issue of Nazi terror and they should know. I wonder,
BTW, why goates have tattooes on them. But I will let professional
historioans be the judge.
As usuall, if it will be one person supporting Gannon's assertion
against a thousand people opposing it, Gannon, and other Nazi
loonies, will have no doubt the one person is right and all the rest
are lying.
# So the
# short answer to your question is: I don't have enough time to do otherwise
# right now, and I grew tired of trying to debate with the likes of Ken McVay
# and Danny Keren, et al. It was hopeless!
The self-admitted Nazi admirer, White supremacist and antisemite says
it clearly: he avoids any debate and keeps reposting the same old
stuff that was refuted many times.
## Why won't you answer my questions?
# I don't have time to answer all questions, nor even to read all of the
# messages posted on the subject
Well what else is new?
## Did you post the Luftl report with the knowledge that he had already
## retracted it?
# No, I was not aware he had "retracted" it. It doesn't matter anyway,
I see. Even if the author of the "crackpot science" report Gannon posted here
many times would retract it, Gannon would still believe it.
# Now if he can scientifically demonstrate ERRORS in it, and
# DISPROVE all of it, that would be another matter.
Mr. Gannon now ignores not only Luftl's opinion, but also the fact that
the report was completely refuted by various people. For instance, I
have posted here at length about experiments regarding the toxicity
of diesel fumes; it was proved - by experiments, not crazy and
incorrect calculations - that fumes from a 6 BHP engine are enough
to cause death. I guess any sane person would understand that 500
BHP engines, like those used in Treblinka, would cause death as well.
Gannon goes on to post about Hoess. When reading Hoess' autobiography, it is
hard to believe any part of it was dictated to him. Hoess, for instance,
writes that the number killed at Auschwitz is about 1.2 million; he mocks the
estimates of the prisoners as "having no foundation in reality". Further,
Hoess presents the Jewish, Polish, and Soviet prisoners in the worst of terms.
The Jews are always bribing everybody and lying; the Russians he describes as
a savage horde, killing each other for a few potatoes and a piece of bread,
and in some cases killing some of their comarades and eating them. The Poles
don't get a much better exposure either.
I find it very, very hard to believe that had the autobiography been dictated
to Hoess, these type of things are what his "shadow authors" would want to
appear.
And, of course, there is absolutely no evidence anything was dictated to him.
-Danny Keren.
Barry Shein
From: dga...@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon)
> Someone should tell Deborah -- she won't listen to me -- about the
>video tape showing general Lucius D. Clay, Military Governor of the
>U.S. Occupation Zone of Germany during 1947-49 explaining to a
>conference sponsored by the George C. Marshall Research Foundation at
>Lexington Virginia that the infamous human-skin lamp shades of
>Buchenwald were in fact made of "goat" skin.
>
> [Excerpted from "RUB-A-DUB-DUB: Notes on the Jewish-Soap Scam",
> by Bradley R. Smith, which I have posted to the net previously.]
You wouldn't by any wild chance have a reference to this event cited
by anyone else but another Holocaust denier (Bradley Smith is involved
with the IHR and takes out ads in college newspapers, when he can,
proclaiming the Holocaust a myth.)
Surely such a visible event must have been reported ONCE by someone
from more neutral territory?
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | b...@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Ken Mcvay
>>From: wmcg...@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>>Subject: Re: Legal Persecution of Revisionists Worse Than Stalinist Law!
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 19:47:53 GMT
>>Gannon,
>>Why are you posting new material here when you have failed to
>>answer all the reasonable inquiries about your former posts?
> As I have explained before, I no longer have time to personally
>respond to all of the "inquiries" directed my way. I do my best to post
>well-referenced articles which DO answer whatever inquiries I can, however.
Your "well-referenced articles" have been so thoroughly refutted here, time
and time again, that you must find it embarrassing to repost them without
adding any substance.
> As only one person, who has a very busy life, for the most part all I
>can do right now is to try to promote the free flow of information in the
>face of dramatic and often deliberate suppression and falsehood. So the
No-one has suppressed your access, Gannon, as you well know. You have, of
course, lost feeds because you are a liar, but then you already know that.
>short answer to your question is: I don't have enough time to do otherwise
>right now, and I grew tired of trying to debate with the likes of Ken McVay
>and Danny Keren, et al. It was hopeless! So at least I can do my best to
You have _never_ "tried to debate" anything here with anyone. You have
studiously avoided any semblence of debate. You are, quite clearly, a
coward.
>keep providing "taboo" information to those who have open, rational minds.
>More and more who also have courage are coming to help in this struggle for
>truth and freedom.
Right.
>>Why won't you answer my questions?
> I don't have time to answer all questions, nor even to read all of the
>messages posted on the subject, but I do as much as I can. You must
>understand how exasperating and tiring it is for me to read the same bunch
>of lies, personal attacks and half-truths over and over and over. I have
>decided not to waste my time on writing refutations of those things any
>more, and I am now taking a more proactive stance, rather than playing the
You have yet to write a single line that refutes anything, nor have you
demonstrated that the material posted here in opposition to your nonsense is
"lies." You are an intellectual fraud.
>little "games" that certain anti-revisionists are always quick to set up
You don't qualify as a revisionist, Gannon, and no-one here is opposed to
historic revisionism... as Duke University historians pointed out in their
resonse to Bradley Smith's inflamatory ad:
"That historians are constantly engaged in historical revision is certainly
correct; however, what historians do is very different from this
advertisement. Historical revision of major events (e.g. the American
Revolution) is not concerned with the actuality of these events; rather it
concerns their historical interpretation -- their causes and consequences
generally. There is no debate among historians about the actuality of the
Holocaust... there can be no doubt that the Nazi state systematically put to
death millions of Jews, Gypsies, political radicals and other people."
>for me or any other "heritical" revisionist. I have better things to do,
>and more important things to do, than to let them waste all of my time in
>such a manner any more.
Any _more_? Given that you have never done this - respond to challenges with
facts - one wonders how you can make such a remark.
>Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess for example, who was hung. In the
>particular case of Rudolf Hoess, it is now known that a British guard who
>had custody of him bragged in his diary about having tortured him, and
>having threatened harm to his family in order to extract a "confession" out
>of him. This so-called "confession" has been used for decades as one of
>the strongest "proofs" of the "Holocaust story", and some still try to cite
>it as valid! (Many outrageous things are still claimed to be true and
There you go again, Dan. Ho"ss's statement - the one extracted by the
British - hasn't been used by anyone to prove anything. Ho"ss himself
couldn't even recall what he wrote at the time, when questioned about it
later... as the editor of his memoirs points out:
"Just after his capture in 1946, the British Security Police were able
to extract a statement from Ho"ss by beating him and filling him with
liquor. Ho"ss states in his autobiography that he doesn't remember
what was in that statement. It does not differ in any great degree
from the section entitled, 'The Final Solution to the Jewish Question
in KL Auschwitz.' The later section, however, does contain more
detail than the original forced statement to the British interrogators.
There are fanatical groups in the United States, France, and even
Australia who call themselves 'The Revisionist Historians.' They
actually propose that Ho"ss never wrote these documents--that they
are a fraud. They also state that even if the documents were written
by Ho"ss, they were obviously done under duress from the 'Communist
authorities' in Poland.
The 'research' and the conclusions of these 'historians' are absolute
rubbish. The documents written in Poland, the personal interviews
given to psychiatrist G. Martin Gilbert during the Nuremberg trials,
and Rudolf Ho"ss's blunt testimony during the trial itself are
consistent with each other to such a degree that we can safely
believe that the memoirs written in Poland are an elaboration of the
Nuremberg testimony containing much more detail. The documents in
Death Dealer are consistent with other statements made by SS Corporal
Pery Broad and the diary of SS Dr. Kremer, who also were at
Auschwitz, and with personal accounts by prisoners in the essential
facts. They differ only when Hoss attempts to recall exact dates and
numbers of prisoners. They also differ when Ho"ss writes about his
part in the Final Solution. Ho"ss maintains that he was only
following orders and being a good Nazi, and that he did this with no
thought or regard to moral consequences because "Befehl ist
Befehl" -- "orders are orders," therefore, they must be followed.
(Paskuly, Steven J., Ed. Death Dealer: The Memoirs of the SS
Kommandant at Auschwitz, by Rudolph Ho"ss. Buffalo, New York:
Prometheus Books, 1992)
>>Why can't you behave like a human being and engage in back-and-forth
>>debate?
> I am behaving like a human being, thank you. I don't need to be
>de-humanized, thank you. And again for the record, I am not a "Nazi", nor
>an "anti-Semite", nor any other name-brand of Thought Criminal! I am a
>thinking, idealistic individual. "Killing the messenger" is so popular and
>widely accepted though, I know...
What is your defense of the quotes attributed to you, recently posted here,
which were taken from your own bulletin board? (I won't repeat them - they
were posted by Dr. Keren here today.)
>>You are really beginning to piss me off. If you won't answer my questions
>>about Luftl and Pressac, I am going to put all your posts on my kill list.
> Sorry to piss you off. Maybe I missed some of your questions. What
>questions would you like me to answer, if any, that I have not already
>answered?
Why not start with an answer to the question about the "errors" you claim
exist in the Holocaust FAQ's? Since you have never done that, while
maintaining they are "full of errors," perhaps you will now begin?
--
The Old Frog's Almanac - A Salute to That Old Frog Hisse'f, Ryugen Fisher
Ladysmith, British Columbia, CANADA
Home of the Holocaust archives... send INDEX to list...@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
for a complete list of current archives available via mail server.
Alan Stein
>In article <27u6ik$n...@techbook.techbook.com> dga...@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>>>Why are you posting new material here when you have failed to
>>>answer all the reasonable inquiries about your former posts?
>> As I have explained before, I no longer have time to personally
>>respond to all of the "inquiries" directed my way. I do my best to post
>>well-referenced articles which DO answer whatever inquiries I can, however.
>Your "well-referenced articles" have been so thoroughly refutted here, time
>and time again, that you must find it embarrassing to repost them without
>adding any substance.
I think that Mr. Gannon is beyond embarrassment.
--
Alan H. Stein ast...@israel.nysernet.org
Barbara Abernathy
That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african ( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science , mathematics you name it!!!!!!
)
asia z lerner
>
>
>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african ( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science , mathematics you name it!!!!!!
>
>
O.K., I'll bite - WHAT about the plight of the africans?
David Mandl
[Hundreds and hundreds of lines deleted]
> That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
> (the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science,
> mathematics you name it!!!!!!)
You've posted this same non-sequitur at least four times. In the
message above, you also included, for no good reason, a complete
post of several HUNDRED lines. You apparently don't know how
to use your editor either: you should edit your lines to a length
of 80 or less to make it easier (or possible) for people to read
your post. Oh, and you also cross-posted to 10 groups, at least
a few of which are not relevant.
Now that that's out of the way: What *about* the Africans? Is
anyone mentioning the extermination of the Jews required to mention
every other genocide in the same sentence? Why just the Africans?
What about the Armenians (come and get me, Argic)? What about
East Timor? What about U.S. ecocide in Vietnam? What about
Soviet slaughter in Afghanistan? What about U.S.-sponsored torture
in Guatemala? If you want to address any of these, feel free to do
so in any of the appropriate groups, and stop trying to make people
feel guilty for neglecting your own pet subject for five minutes.
--Dave.
--
Dave Mandl
dma...@panix.com (play)
dma...@lehman.com (work)
Barbara Abernathy
>In article <CE0vu...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@prolog.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>
>[Hundreds and hundreds of lines deleted]
>
>> That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
>> (the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science,
>> mathematics you name it!!!!!!)
>
>You've posted this same non-sequitur at least four times. In the
>message above, you also included, for no good reason, a complete
>post of several HUNDRED lines. You apparently don't know how
>to use your editor either: you should edit your lines to a length
>of 80 or less to make it easier (or possible) for people to read
>your post. Oh, and you also cross-posted to 10 groups, at least
If you want to trade insult, I WILL GLADLY accommodate you, pinhead!!
>a few of which are not relevant.
>
>Now that that's out of the way: What *about* the Africans? Is
>anyone mentioning the extermination of the Jews required to mention
>every other genocide in the same sentence? Why just the Africans?
>What about the Armenians (come and get me, Argic)? What about
>East Timor? What about U.S. ecocide in Vietnam? What about
>Soviet slaughter in Afghanistan? What about U.S.-sponsored torture
>in Guatemala? If you want to address any of these, feel free to do
>so in any of the appropriate groups, and stop trying to make people
>feel guilty for neglecting your own pet subject for five minutes.
>
What *about* the Jews?!!!! If I have to put up with your crap you will
certainly HAVE to put up with mine... Don't try and make me feel guilty
for not eating kosher products and catering to your own religious belief
and the trials and tribulations of your group...
Roger Lustig
>In article <DMANDL.93S...@shoe.shearson.com> dma...@shoe.shearson.com (David Mandl) writes:
>>In article <CE0vu...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@prolog.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>>[Hundreds and hundreds of lines deleted]
>>> That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
>>> (the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science,
>>> mathematics you name it!!!!!!)
>>You've posted this same non-sequitur at least four times. In the
>>message above, you also included, for no good reason, a complete
>>post of several HUNDRED lines. You apparently don't know how
>>to use your editor either: you should edit your lines to a length
>>of 80 or less to make it easier (or possible) for people to read
>>your post. Oh, and you also cross-posted to 10 groups, at least
>If you want to trade insult, I WILL GLADLY accommodate you, pinhead!!
Where's the insult in the above?
You DID use overlong lines.
You DID post a non-sequitur to a specific discussion.
You DID repost hundreds and hundreds of lines without comment.
You evidently haven't read news.announce.newusers, which gives
guidelines on how to post.
Nothing insulting about those observations.
>>a few of which are not relevant.
>>Now that that's out of the way: What *about* the Africans? Is
>>anyone mentioning the extermination of the Jews required to mention
>>every other genocide in the same sentence? Why just the Africans?
>>What about the Armenians (come and get me, Argic)? What about
>>East Timor? What about U.S. ecocide in Vietnam? What about
>>Soviet slaughter in Afghanistan? What about U.S.-sponsored torture
>>in Guatemala? If you want to address any of these, feel free to do
>>so in any of the appropriate groups, and stop trying to make people
>>feel guilty for neglecting your own pet subject for five minutes.
>What *about* the Jews?!!!! If I have to put up with your crap you will
You don't. Nobody is forcing you to read this group or any article in it.
You can just it 'n' or kill the subject header or makea kill file
if you don't want to read it.
But you may NOT insist that everyone discuss what you want to. If you
wish to have a discussion about Africa or anything else, simply post
a new posting or make a query or request for discussion. Don't blame
the world for not catering to your taste or reading your mind.
>certainly HAVE to put up with mine... Don't try and make me feel guilty
>for not eating kosher products and catering to your own religious belief
>and the trials and tribulations of your group...
So who did that? If someone did, I'm sure you can point this out in
their postings. If not, go easy on the accusations.
Roger
>
Brad Pierce
>What *about* the Jews?!!!! If I have to put up with your crap you will
>certainly HAVE to put up with mine... Don't try and make me feel guilty
>for not eating kosher products and catering to your own religious belief
>and the trials and tribulations of your group...
Why don't you tell us more of your feelings about the Jews? Would you
concur with Jesse Jackson that you've heard enough about the Holocaust?
What do you think of Louis Farrakhan? What do you think of Dr. Harry
Edwards deliberate scheduling of a midterm examination on Yom Kippur
(October 9, 1989)?
-- Brad Pierce -- 28/Sept/1993
Barbara Abernathy
Mr. Pierce, I think I see where this is leading and I don't like it. So let me
state this for the record. I am not an anti-semite. I do not have anti-semitic
sentiments. My response was geared only toward the message that was a response
to my post. I took offense to the post and tried my darnest to offend the
person that offended me. If you or any other subscriber of Jewish descent took
offense, none was intended.
It is important not to forget an event like the Holocaust. Atrocities were
definitely suffered by the Jews. I have no problem with discussing that event.
I only have a problem with people who express their annoyance over the
slightest mention of ANY African issue!!!!
People seem to want to forget that part of history.
Ken Arromdee
>>for not eating kosher products and catering to your own religious belief
>>and the trials and tribulations of your group...
It may come as a shock to some non-Jews who have been only hearing propaganda
about Jews and probably never talked to any Jews, but Jewish law only applies
to Jews. Non-Jews are not required to follow Jewish laws such as eating
kosher products, and it is not considered sinful for them to not follow the
Jewish religion.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me... Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me... Turkey Casserole
that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ... Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
-- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)
Ken Arromdee (arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Steven Bobker
Roger Lustig
>In article <1993Sep28....@cs.ucla.edu> pie...@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce) writes:
>>In article <CE2nH...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@basic.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>>>What *about* the Jews?!!!! If I have to put up with your crap you will
>>>certainly HAVE to put up with mine... Don't try and make me feel guilty
>>>for not eating kosher products and catering to your own religious belief
>>>and the trials and tribulations of your group...
>>Why don't you tell us more of your feelings about the Jews? Would you
>>concur with Jesse Jackson that you've heard enough about the Holocaust?
>>What do you think of Louis Farrakhan? What do you think of Dr. Harry
>>Edwards deliberate scheduling of a midterm examination on Yom Kippur
>>(October 9, 1989)?
[quick comment here: I consider these questions irrelevant to the topic
at hand]
>Mr. Pierce, I think I see where this is leading and I don't like it. So let me
>state this for the record. I am not an anti-semite. I do not have anti-semitic
>sentiments. My response was geared only toward the message that was a response
>to my post. I took offense to the post and tried my darnest to offend the
>person that offended me. If you or any other subscriber of Jewish descent took
>offense, none was intended.
Well, Barbara, you offended a lot of people by reposting a huge article
and appending an irrelevant whine to it. We're perfectly happy to discuss
any issue you choose; but we don't like being told that we're wrong for
not discussing it when YOU want us to.
>It is important not to forget an event like the Holocaust. Atrocities were
>definitely suffered by the Jews. I have no problem with discussing that event.
And yet you posted the same complaint, what, four times? Each time more
irrelevant than the last? All four times adding nothing to the discussion?
All four times wasting a lot of bandwidth with a meaningless question?
>I only have a problem with people who express their annoyance over the
>slightest mention of ANY African issue!!!!
When such people post here, you should by all means respond to them.
But replying to postings on a *different* subject and complainin
thatthey don't address your topic of choice -- and doing the highly
antagonistic thing of reposting the entire article without comment --
that's something that lots of people finda problem, and it doesn't make them
much more willing to talk Africa or anything else with you.
Roger
Barbara Abernathy
>In article <CE2xz...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@eiffel.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>>In article <1993Sep28....@cs.ucla.edu> pie...@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce) writes:
>>>In article <CE2nH...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@basic.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>
>[quick comment here: I consider these questions irrelevant to the topic
>at hand]
>
>>Mr. Pierce, I think I see where this is leading and I don't like it. So let me
>>state this for the record. I am not an anti-semite. I do not have anti-semitic
>>sentiments. My response was geared only toward the message that was a response
>>to my post. I took offense to the post and tried my darnest to offend the
>>person that offended me. If you or any other subscriber of Jewish descent took
>>offense, none was intended.
>
>Well, Barbara, you offended a lot of people by reposting a huge article
>and appending an irrelevant whine to it. We're perfectly happy to discuss
>any issue you choose; but we don't like being told that we're wrong for
>not discussing it when YOU want us to.
>
Look Roger stop YOUR MOANING and GRIPING, it's quite tiresome. YOU DO NOT
DICTATE the topics of discussion.(i'm not saying that I do either)
So STOP WHINING just because another issue has been brought up.
You don't like the fact that Africa issues are brought up TOO F'ing BAD!!!
>>It is important not to forget an event like the Holocaust. Atrocities were
>>definitely suffered by the Jews. I have no problem with discussing that event.
>
>And yet you posted the same complaint, what, four times? Each time more
>irrelevant than the last? All four times adding nothing to the discussion?
WHINE WHINE WHINE, get a life !!! NOW!!
>All four times wasting a lot of bandwidth with a meaningless question?
>
Not half as meaningless as YOUR VERY IDIOTIC response.
>>I only have a problem with people who express their annoyance over the
>>slightest mention of ANY African issue!!!!
>
>When such people post here, you should by all means respond to them.
>But replying to postings on a *different* subject and complainin
>thatthey don't address your topic of choice -- and doing the highly
>antagonistic thing of reposting the entire article without comment --
>that's something that lots of people finda problem, and it doesn't make them
>much more willing to talk Africa or anything else with you.
Frankly I could give a rat's *ss that you don't feel like discussing anything
with me because, hey, the feeling is quite mutual.
>
>Roger
>>
>>People seem to want to forget that part of history.
>>
>
>
Flame away all you want. If trading insults is your game, WE CERTAINLY CAN DO THAT
karen lee givon
>If you want to trade insult, I WILL GLADLY accommodate you, pinhead!!
I believe that was criticism, not insults.
>What *about* the Jews?!!!! If I have to put up with your crap you will
>certainly HAVE to put up with mine... Don't try and make me feel guilty
>for not eating kosher products and catering to your own religious belief
>and the trials and tribulations of your group...
>
I'd like for you to point out to us just how you were made to feel
guilty for not eating kosher products.
As for making you feel guilty about not catering to our religious
beliefs, perhaps you have us confused with some evangelical religion? I
doubt anyone has come to your door telling you to convert to Judaism or
go to hell.
Karen
Roger Lustig
>In article <1993Sep28.2...@Princeton.EDU> ro...@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <CE2xz...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@eiffel.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>>>In article <1993Sep28....@cs.ucla.edu> pie...@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce) writes:
>>>>In article <CE2nH...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@basic.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>>[quick comment here: I consider these questions irrelevant to the topic
>>at hand]
>>>Mr. Pierce, I think I see where this is leading and I don't like it. So let me
>>>state this for the record. I am not an anti-semite. I do not have anti-semitic
>>>sentiments. My response was geared only toward the message that was a response
>>>to my post. I took offense to the post and tried my darnest to offend the
>>>person that offended me. If you or any other subscriber of Jewish descent took
>>>offense, none was intended.
>>Well, Barbara, you offended a lot of people by reposting a huge article
>>and appending an irrelevant whine to it. We're perfectly happy to discuss
>>any issue you choose; but we don't like being told that we're wrong for
>>not discussing it when YOU want us to.
>Look Roger stop YOUR MOANING and GRIPING, it's quite tiresome. YOU DO NOT
>DICTATE the topics of discussion.
Right. that's what I said directly above.
>(i'm not saying that I do either)
Then why did you try to do just that?
>So STOP WHINING just because another issue has been brought up.
What issue is that?
>You don't like the fact that Africa issues are brought up TOO F'ing BAD!!!
On the contrary, I'm waiting for you to bring them up. Now's a good
time. What do you want to talk about with regard to Africa?
>>>It is important not to forget an event like the Holocaust. Atrocities were
>>>definitely suffered by the Jews. I have no problem with discussing that event.
>>And yet you posted the same complaint, what, four times? Each time more
>>irrelevant than the last? All four times adding nothing to the discussion?
>WHINE WHINE WHINE, get a life !!! NOW!!
So where's your topic?
>>All four times wasting a lot of bandwidth with a meaningless question?
>Not half as meaningless as YOUR VERY IDIOTIC response.
Do tell. What was wrong with it, other than that it pointed out
your bad manners and seems to have provoked more of the same?
>>>I only have a problem with people who express their annoyance over the
>>>slightest mention of ANY African issue!!!!
>>When such people post here, you should by all means respond to them.
>>But replying to postings on a *different* subject and complainin
>>thatthey don't address your topic of choice -- and doing the highly
>>antagonistic thing of reposting the entire article without comment --
>>that's something that lots of people finda problem, and it doesn't make them
>>much more willing to talk Africa or anything else with you.
>Frankly I could give a rat's *ss that you don't feel like discussing anything
>with me because, hey, the feeling is quite mutual.
Well, you *haven't* discussed anything yet, so how about getting down to it?
>>>People seem to want to forget that part of history.
>Flame away all you want. If trading insults is your game, WE CERTAINLY CAN DO THAT
I'm not interested in that at all. But I'd love to see you propose a
topic for discussion in a friendly manner. Got any?
Roger
Roderick M. Riensche
Ms. Abernathy,
CHILL OUT! Who pissed in your Corn Flakes? Do you *honestly*
believe that people are mad at you for daring to mention Africa?
Please! Quit trying to sound like the poor little scapegoat! People are
pissed at you for WASTING THEIR TIME with replies that are completely
off-topic!!!!!!!!!!! There are some good texts around about
"Netiquette". I *highly* suggest you read all of them.
I posted one message already with this content, but made the
mistake of not cross-posting to all of the newsgroups that have been
subjected to this mindless drivel, so here it is again.
Since you so desperately want to talk about 'Africans', then by
all means let's do so. For starters, are you refering to Africans as in
people who LIVE in Africa, or are you talking about people whose
ANCESTORS lived in Africa, and who still insist on calling themselves
"African" even though they live in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
I notice you have replied to EVERY message posted regarding your
replies to the Holocaust messages, and in EVERY one of your replies, you
think people are insulting you. News flash: 99% of these people were
just trying to give you pointers on "How to Avoid Looking Like a Complete
Idiot in the Future". However, since you insist on viewing those as
insults, and you seem to want to engage in 'insult war', how about you do
it via e-mail, or not at all.... If you actually do succeed in starting
such a trade-off, I'm sure most of the people reading these discussions
would rather not have to wade through it every day.
Thank you
Roderick M. Riensche
<rien...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
P.S. If this comes back with another of your "If you want to trade
insults....." replies that have no material relevant to the topic at
hand, you may find that some people WILL give you insults to chew on, and
you probably will not like them (judging by the amount of offense you
have taken to constructive criticism)
Barbara Abernathy
In article <1993Sep29.0...@serval.net.wsu.edu> rien...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu (Roderick M. Riensche) writes:
>In article <1993Sep29.0...@Princeton.EDU> ro...@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <CE3Io...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@csp.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>
>Ms. Abernathy,
>
> CHILL OUT! Who pissed in your Corn Flakes? Do you *honestly*
>believe that people are mad at you for daring to mention Africa?
>Please! Quit trying to sound like the poor little scapegoat! People are
To be honest, yeah I do think that people get upset when Africa is brought up.
>pissed at you for WASTING THEIR TIME with replies that are completely
>off-topic!!!!!!!!!!! There are some good texts around about
>"Netiquette". I *highly* suggest you read all of them.
>
> I posted one message already with this content, but made the
>mistake of not cross-posting to all of the newsgroups that have been
>subjected to this mindless drivel, so here it is again.
>
> Since you so desperately want to talk about 'Africans', then by
>all means let's do so. For starters, are you refering to Africans as in
>people who LIVE in Africa, or are you talking about people whose
actually continental African mostly
>ANCESTORS lived in Africa, and who still insist on calling themselves
>"African" even though they live in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
>
> I notice you have replied to EVERY message posted regarding your
>replies to the Holocaust messages, and in EVERY one of your replies, you
>think people are insulting you. News flash: 99% of these people were
>just trying to give you pointers on "How to Avoid Looking Like a Complete
>Idiot in the Future". However, since you insist on viewing those as
I think you the one looking like a moron. It is not me that want to engage in
an insult war, I won't start one but I certainly won't back away from one.
>insults, and you seem to want to engage in 'insult war', how about you do
>it via e-mail, or not at all.... If you actually do succeed in starting
>such a trade-off, I'm sure most of the people reading these discussions
>would rather not have to wade through it every day.
>
>Thank you
>Roderick M. Riensche
><rien...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
>
>P.S. If this comes back with another of your "If you want to trade
>insults....." replies that have no material relevant to the topic at
>hand, you may find that some people WILL give you insults to chew on, and
go right ahead, I'm certainly not going to back down.
>you probably will not like them (judging by the amount of offense you
>have taken to constructive criticism)
You are a hypocrite! Instead of posting this message why not take your own
advice and send me e-mail about it. Most of your message was taken as
constructive criticism, but the parts that I deemed destructive I responded
.
Oded Maler
>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
>( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science ,
> mathematics you name it!!!!!!
Hey Argic, why didn't you tell us you have a sister? Please
teach her the trick of cutting the original post to three lines,
and learn from her the art of succintness.
--
==============================================================
Oded Maler, VERIMAG, Miniparc ZIRST, 38330 Montbonnot, France
Phone: 76909635 Fax: 76413620 e-mail: Oded....@imag.fr
===============================================================
D F Russell
Sure, and let's not forget all of the Irish who died in the potatoe[sic]
famine.
Barbara Abernathy
>|> People seem to want to forget that part of history.
>|>
>
>Sure, and let's not forget all of the Irish who died in the potatoe[sic]
>famine.
You are absolutely right! Let's not forget about the Irish that suffered and died during that period. Actually I have no real knowledge on that subject, other
than people dying because the potato crop was ruined. I know nothing else
about it. Any information on this would be appreciated.
D F Russell
Does this mean that you don't want to talk about Ireland?
I don't mind annoying people who are bigoted etc -- but you have made a
special list -- killfile. It is saved for those people who are annoying,
bigoted, and stupid.
Have a nice day.
Barry Shein
From: bab...@eiffel.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy)
>What *about* the Jews?!!!! If I have to put up with your crap you will
>certainly HAVE to put up with mine... Don't try and make me feel guilty
>for not eating kosher products
You wouldn't, by any wild chance, have a quote from a posting that we
can use as an instructive example?
>I only have a problem with people who express their annoyance over the
>slightest mention of ANY African issue!!!!
You wouldn't, by any wild chance, have a quote from a posting that we
can use as an instructive example?
Barbara Abernathy
>
>Does this mean that you don't want to talk about Ireland?
You obviously can't read you uneducated f*ck, so what I have to say below
probably won't offend you. If so, GOOD!!!!!!
>
>I don't mind annoying people who are bigoted etc -- but you have made a
>special list -- killfile. It is saved for those people who are annoying,
>bigoted, and stupid.
>
>Have a nice day.
You are a fu**ing moron. You are a bigoted a**hole. Die idiot, cause you
make my kill filelist. You are such a fool. You want to square off, well
bring it on you stupid, retarded racist f*ck. F*ck you and your issues..
Discuss that!!!!!
How'd you like them apples?!!!!!!
Serdar Argic
>You are absolutely right! Let's not forget about the Irish that
>suffered and died during that period. Actually I have no real
>knowledge on that subject, other than people dying because the
>potato crop was ruined. I know nothing else about it.
Let us 'not' forget about the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people
by the Armenians that took place in x-Soviet Armenia and Eastern
Anatolia between 1914 and 1920.
Muslim population exterminated by the Armenians:
Source: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman
Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press,
New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.
(McCarthy's Tables 7.10 and 7.11)
Province Estimated Estimated Proportion
1912 pop. pop. loss lost
1912-1922
--------- ---------- ---------- ----------
Adana 573,256 42,511 7%
Bitlis 408,703 169,748 42%
Diyarbakir 598,985 158,043 26%
Erzurum 804,388 248,695 31%
Haleb 562,197 50,838 9%
Huedavendigar 1,598,583 160,612 10%
Konya 1,542,331 418,442 27%
Mamuretuelaziz 564,164 89,310 16%
Sivas 1,196,300 180,413 15%
Trabon 1,178,655 49,907 4%
Van 313,322 194,167 62%
I don't know whether anybody formulated and proposed such an index or
criteria to determine the magnitude of a genocide as mentioned and advised
by Toynbee. If one ever does you will easily see the magnitude of the
crime of genocide committed by the Armenians, by massacring an alien
population under their rule which constituted about 40% of their total
population and they did it only within a time period of a little over
two years in which they enjoyed having full control over this population.
Now I would like to ask you:
Is there any other genocide in the history of mankind similar to
this one?
And again I would like to ask you:
Whether the silent and unmourned martyrdom of these hundreds of thousands
of Turks of the Republic of Armenia who were exterminated as a "Final
Solution" to Turco-Tartar problems in Armenia is similar or not
to the martyrdom of six million Jews in Europe as a final solution to
Jewish problems?
Source: "From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne" by Avetis Aharonian. The
Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.
p. 52 (second paragraph).
"Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged
massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents
on the table - look at this, here in December are the reports of the last
few months concerning ruined Tartar villages which my representative
Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the
destruction of 300 villages."
p. 54 (fifth paragraph).
"Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Tartars is stopped
and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I
hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition."
"...it is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who
during the past months have raided and destroyed many Tartar villages in
the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are
official charges of massacres."
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
Serdar Argic
>Re: Barbara Abernathy
>>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
>>( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science ,
>> mathematics you name it!!!!!!
>Hey Argic, why didn't you tell us you have a sister? Please
Oboy, this is exciting. First you discuss your non-existent literature
tastes, then your B.S. and fantasies, and now your choices of entertainment.
Have you considered just turning on the 'arromdian/SDPA' TV and leaving those
of us who aren't brain dead to continue to discuss the Armenian genocide
of the Muslim people?
By the way, I am still waiting for your views on the Armenian genocide
of 2.5 million Muslim people that took place in x-Soviet Armenia and
Eastern Anatolia between 1914 and 1920, which by the way was presented
in its full form and not just quoted in excerpts. For instance, are you
claiming that these 'Western/Jewish/Armenian' texts of 'it' are incorrect?
If so, please provide us with your corrections.
This is U.S. Ambassador Bristol, not 'clockian/arromdian/perlmanian-SDPA'.
Source: "U.S. Library of Congress": 'Bristol Papers' - General
Correspondence Container #34.
"While the Dashnaks [x-Soviet Armenian Government] were in power they
did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking Kurds,
Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages against the Moslems; by
massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes. During
the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus have shown no
ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or
handle other races under their power."
Source: Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in
the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly
defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."
Source: F. Kazemzadeh, "The Struggle for Transcaucasia," (New York, 1951),
pp. 69-77.
This three-day massacre [by Armenians] is recorded in history as the
'March Events' and thousands of Turks, old people, women and children
lost their lives.
Source: K. Gurun, "The Armenian File," (London, Nicosia, Istanbul, 1985).
"Many Muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of Armenian troops
armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of our troops and the
people.....According to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have
been destroyed...young Muslim women have been taken to Kars and Gumru,
hundreds of women and children who were able to flee their villages were
beaten and killed in the mountains..."
Source: W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481.
"As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars
as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre
of the Tartar population."
Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24,
1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"
"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the
Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."
Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner,
February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises
au Levant," vol. 1, p. 122.
"They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive
measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their
retreat from Marash."
Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40,
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.
"They [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred
and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at
least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."
Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape,
30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 178 (first paragraph)
"In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for
arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such
search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures
had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where
valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the
existence, although they had been unable to find them."
p. 175 (first paragraph)
"The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
be referred to in due course."
Need I go on?
Adam L. Schwartz
>In article D F Russell writes:
>>I don't mind annoying people who are bigoted etc -- but you have made a
>>special list -- killfile. It is saved for those people who are annoying,
>>bigoted, and stupid.
>>
>>Have a nice day.
>
>You are a fu**ing moron. You are a bigoted a**hole. Die idiot, cause you
>make my kill filelist. You are such a fool. You want to square off, well
>bring it on you stupid, retarded racist f*ck. F*ck you and your issues..
>Discuss that!!!!!
Notice how inconsistent Abern*thy is. First she blocks out the 'ck' in
"fu**ing". Later, she blocks out the 'u' in 'f*ck'. How can we take
Abern*thy seriously?
>
>How'd you like them apples?!!!!!!
Very provocative question.
--
Adam Schwartz | The opinions expressed here are my own
ad...@eecs.berkeley.edu | and those of anyone who agrees with me.
Roderick M. Riensche
What is this shit?? If you think you are adult enough to use all of
these biiiiiig words, then spell it out. Don't be a chickenshit.
More importantly, what is the point? Why are you here? So far in the
last three days I have seen you do only the following things:
1: Post TOTALLY out-of-context replies to numerous methods
trying to change the subject because apparently the present one didn't
interest you.
2: Get really offended when people tried *nicely* (at FIRST) to
tell you that doing so is frowned upon as it only annoys people.
3: Received multiple offers to start a discussion of your own,
yet did not bother to do so. I guess you must be too busy replying to
all of us 'bigoted assholes'. Just because people don't want to drop
their current discussion to discuss Africa does not make them bigots.
As for your little insult above, I have friends and relatives who are
mentally retarded, and from what I have seen so far, they are a hell of a
lot smarter than you. Your use of that term as an insult is frankly
quite tasteless and immature.
>
>How'd you like them apples?!!!!!!
I prefer oranges thank you very much.
O.k. Add me to your kill-file now!!!!!
God forbid if someone tried to tell you something you don't want to hear.
Edward Hartnett
This is one of the most senseless flames I have ever seen and I quite
enjoyed it, as I'm sure many other readers did. Indeed, my fondest
wish is that you will now flame me and call me a racist moron.
I have only one slight complaint: if you are going to be such a jerk,
why bother to write f*ck? Just come right out and write FUCK. There is
is again: FUCK. See, it's not so hard, is it? After all, if your
calling someone a retarded racist fuck, I don't think that you should
worry about offending him by actually spelling out the word!
And now we return to the regularly scheduled flamefest...
--
Edward Hartnett e...@twod.gsfc.nasa.gov
(301) 286-2396 fax: (301) 286-3460
Patrick L Humphrey
>In article <CE4qn...@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com> rus...@g56dfr.raleigh.ibm.com (D F Russell) writes:
>>
>>Does this mean that you don't want to talk about Ireland?
>You obviously can't read you uneducated f*ck, so what I have to say below
>probably won't offend you. If so, GOOD!!!!!!
I thought that was your intention in this scattershot crossposting?
>>I don't mind annoying people who are bigoted etc -- but you have made a
>>special list -- killfile. It is saved for those people who are annoying,
>>bigoted, and stupid.
>>
>>Have a nice day.
>You are a fu**ing moron. You are a bigoted a**hole. Die idiot, cause you
>make my kill filelist. You are such a fool. You want to square off, well
>bring it on you stupid, retarded racist f*ck. F*ck you and your issues..
>Discuss that!!!!!
Don't hold back on anything, kid -- be honest for once and tell us how you
REALLY feel. (Incidentally, it's spelled "fuck", not "f*ck". I guess they
speak a different dialect up there at PlayPenn State.)
>How'd you like them apples?!!!!!!
Enough to agree with D.F. -- and, in my opinion, you're about five cents short
of a nickel. Come back when you turn 18 and we can talk -- which means I'll
be seeing you in, oh, 2000 or so...--PLH
--
Mark Ira Kaufman
Would someone be kind enough to send me Ms. Abernathy's post? It
seems to have caused quite a flap. I e-mailed Ms. Abernathy with
a request for it, but she seems to have ignored my request.
Harold B. Johnson
>make my kill filelist. You are such a fool. You want to square off, well
>bring it on you stupid, retarded racist f*ck. F*ck you and your issues..
>Discuss that!!!!!
>
>How'd you like them apples?!!!!!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... children, children
Harry
h...@phys.physics.ucf.edu
"Goofus drops carrier, Gallant logs off properly"
Barbara Abernathy
>
>Would someone be kind enough to send me Ms. Abernathy's post? It
do not have the file! I'm sure no one thought I was important enough
to save.
>seems to have caused quite a flap. I e-mailed Ms. Abernathy with
>a request for it, but she seems to have ignored my request.
>
Come on Kaufman, tell the truth now.
Fogbound Child
>In article <CE4qn...@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com> rus...@g56dfr.raleigh.ibm.com (D F Russell) writes:
>>
>>Does this mean that you don't want to talk about Ireland?
>You obviously can't read you uneducated f*ck, so what I have to say below
>probably won't offend you. If so, GOOD!!!!!!
[...]
I hereby nominate this for the 1993 Association of Napalam Flinging
Professionals (ANFP) Award of Merit in the categories of Extraordinary
Vituperation, Wilder Venom, Excessive Asterisking, and Incoherent Rage.
___Samuel___
(Go ahead: I dare ANYONE to flame a Member in Good Standing of the ANFP for
posting a followup to many irrelevant groups...)
--
_________I_claim_and_accept_sole_responsibility_for_the_above._SjG.____________
<gold...@aerospace.aero.org | "If it is possible to blame the Creator,
<gold...@arecibo.aero.org> | then I think he really creates life too
...Really don't mind if you | much at random, and destroys it too much
D F Russell
Hi Adam.
Gee, since I dumped bard into my killfile I must have missed her original
post. . .
Hey barb, thanks, I did get a good laugh from it. If I had known that
you could be entertaining, maybe I wouldn't have put you into my killfile.
Have a nice day,
DFRussell
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Tiger! Tiger! burning bright, In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye, could frame thy fearful symmetry?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Neither IBM, AGS, or NYNEX are responsible for my views.
Ted Nutter
I guess this is a good example of a femminazi....
Good luck Russel, hopefully Barb is a good liberal
and believes in gun control and doesn't have any
guns or you'll be in trouble. If I were you I would
watch your back since most liberals own guns, legally or
illegally it doesn't matter to them, and she'll probably
come after you.
Regards,
Ted
**************************
* My opinions are my own *
**************************
Barbara Abernathy
>Wow.......
>
>I guess this is a good example of a femminazi....
I take exception to that!!
>
>Good luck Russel, hopefully Barb is a good liberal
>and believes in gun control and doesn't have any
>guns or you'll be in trouble. If I were you I would
>watch your back since most liberals own guns, legally or
>illegally it doesn't matter to them, and she'll probably
>come after you.
Please, I'd be squad in 2.2 seconds. I limit myself to verbal battles only
D F Russell
|> In article <28dliq$3...@agate.berkeley.edu>, ad...@liszt.eecs.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz) writes:
|> |> In article Barbara Abernathy writes:
|> |> >In article D F Russell writes:
|> |> >>I don't mind annoying people who are bigoted etc -- but you have made a
|> |> >>special list -- killfile. It is saved for those people who are annoying,
|> |> >>bigoted, and stupid.
|> |> >>
|> |> >>Have a nice day.
|> |> >
|> |> >You are a fu**ing moron. You are a bigoted a**hole. Die idiot, cause you
|> |> >make my kill filelist. You are such a fool. You want to square off, well
|> |> >bring it on you stupid, retarded racist f*ck. F*ck you and your issues..
|> |> >Discuss that!!!!!
|> |>
|> |> Notice how inconsistent Abern*thy is. First she blocks out the 'ck' in
|> |> "fu**ing". Later, she blocks out the 'u' in 'f*ck'. How can we take
|> |> Abern*thy seriously?
|> |>
|> |>
|> |> >
|> |> >How'd you like them apples?!!!!!!
|> |>
|> |> Very provocative question.
|> |>
|> |>
|> |> --
|> |> Adam Schwartz | The opinions expressed here are my own
|> |> ad...@eecs.berkeley.edu | and those of anyone who agrees with me.
|> |>
|> |>
|>
|> Hi Adam.
|>
Harry Katz
Barbara Abernathy (bab...@csp.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
You obviously can't read you uneducated f*ck, so
what I have to say below probably won't offend you.
If so, GOOD!!!!!!
You are a fu**ing moron. You are a bigoted a**hole.
Die idiot, cause you make my kill filelist. You are
such a fool. You want to square off, well bring it
on you stupid, retarded racist f*ck. F*ck you and
your issues..
Discuss that!!!!!
How'd you like them apples?!!!!!!
Before any more of us get suckered in by this obvious phoney
let's remember that there are agents provocateurs lurking on
the net waiting for a chance to drive a wedge between people
of good will. There is nothing that the neo-Nazi crowd
would love more than to see an all out war start between
Jews and Blacks over who has seen the worst mistreatment.
We have no way of knowing if there really is such a person
as "Barbara Abernathy," much less that this person is really
a member of the Black community.
Harry Katz
N.O. Monaghan
>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african ( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science , mathematics you name it!!!!!!
I presume you are referring to South Africa. Well, unfortunately, it
looks as if that country will soon suffer the fate of former Yugsolavia.
I don't think there is much that those outside can now do. Unless some
lunatic decided to send UN 'peace-keeping' troops, and thus start a
real blood-bath.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N.O. Monaghan IRC: varg
mona...@zanskar.avc.ucl.ac.uk mona...@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward Hartnett
Please, I'd be squad in 2.2 seconds. I limit myself to verbal battles only
Wow! I don't know what squad means, but it sounds serious. Maybe you
should get to a doctor!
Napoleon
> CHILL OUT! Who pissed in your Corn Flakes? Do you *honestly*
>believe that people are mad at you for daring to mention Africa?
>Please! Quit trying to sound like the poor little scapegoat! People are
>pissed at you for WASTING THEIR TIME with replies that are completely
>off-topic!!!!!!!!!!! There are some good texts around about
>"Netiquette". I *highly* suggest you read all of them.
>
> I posted one message already with this content, but made the
>mistake of not cross-posting to all of the newsgroups that have been
>subjected to this mindless drivel, so here it is again.
>
> Since you so desperately want to talk about 'Africans', then by
>all means let's do so. For starters, are you refering to Africans as in
>people who LIVE in Africa, or are you talking about people whose
>ANCESTORS lived in Africa, and who still insist on calling themselves
>"African" even though they live in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
> I notice you have replied to EVERY message posted regarding your
>replies to the Holocaust messages, and in EVERY one of your replies, you
>think people are insulting you. News flash: 99% of these people were
>just trying to give you pointers on "How to Avoid Looking Like a Complete
>Idiot in the Future". However, since you insist on viewing those as
>insults, and you seem to want to engage in 'insult war', how about you do
>it via e-mail, or not at all.... If you actually do succeed in starting
>such a trade-off, I'm sure most of the people reading these discussions
>would rather not have to wade through it every day.
Brilliantly said Roger.Couldn't have put it better.
University of Cape Town, South Africa
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Power comes from the barrel of a gun - Mao Tse Tung
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nehemia Noti
Mark O. Wilson
Barbara Anderson once again demonstrate her brilliant rhetorical skills.
--
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark....@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
Cecelia A Clancy
Everybody,
Note follow-up settings.
Willis Carto LOVES to see this kind of fighting!
Whites/Blacks/Jews/non-Jews going at one another is sheer delight to
Willis Carto.
I suggest that we take advantage of the fact that Barbara has asked
about the plight of the African and the African American to go into
detail of the anti-BLACK macinations of Willis Carto. I, personally,
sure know plenty!
People who consider themselves to be wanting to "combat Holocaust
denial" would be very well served to look beyond the Revisionism
(or "denialism", as some prefer to call it) issue - FAR beyond it.
What Carto calls "Revisionism" (not REAL Revisionism, which just
simple questions what we have always been taught about the
Holocaust) is really just another one of his gimmicks to rake
people into his power base. Carto then uses the contributions,
the mailing lists, and other results for racist and anti-Semitic
purposes that many of his bilked contributors would not approve
of if they knew full well what was going on.
You folks who have been reading Carto's Banished B-CPU bbs (managed
by Carto's employee, Dan Gannon) and have downloaded anti-Black
files, post them here. If you do not want to let it be known
that you have breached B-cpu's "security system", then send them to
me and I'll post them deleting your name, etc) or send them to
somebody else who will - or send them anonymously to Barbara, at least.
Get the word out on the anti-Black racism of Carto. If Carto wants
anti-Black racism, let him advocate it openly (as do most other
racists) and courageously and face whatever rebuttals will come (as
most other racists do). William Pierce of National Alliance, for
example, is no coward. He makes his racist beliefs no secret.
Anybody who sends in money to him know what it is going to be spent
for. But Carto?? No. Carto is a coward. If you
"anti-Revisionists" want to help convince non-bigoted Revisionists
that IHReview is just a Carto front, then POST ALL THE EVIDENCE
of Carto's anti-Black agenda as you can (maybe not verbatum, - some
of his stuff is pretty bad, - but you know whqt I mean.
In case Carto did not know, I am an Oreo. I am a Revisionist German
Oreo from Pittsburgh.
Cecelia Mu"llermeder mul...@pitt.edu Standard disclaimers apply.
Serdar Argic
criminal/crook/Nazi Armenians of SDPA in an attempt
to cover up the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim
people (hence, repost)."
<CE4GI...@imag.fr>
ma...@imag.fr (Oded Maler)
>Re: Barbara Abernathy
>>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
>>( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science ,
>> mathematics you name it!!!!!!
>Hey Argic, why didn't you tell us you have a sister? Please
Serdar Argic
criminal/crook/Nazi Armenians of SDPA in an attempt
to cover up the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim
people (hence, repost)."
<CE4L1...@cse.psu.edu>
bab...@algol.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy)
p. 52 (second paragraph).
p. 54 (fifth paragraph).
Serdar Argic
Shaqeeqa
>
>It may come as a shock to some non-Jews who have been only hearing propaganda
>about Jews and probably never talked to any Jews, but Jewish law only applies
>to Jews.
And it may come as a shock to some non-Jews that most Jews don't apply
Jewish law. So the question is, what *really* defines what a Jew is.
Law, tradition, or culture?
>"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me... Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me... Turkey Casserole
that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ... Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
-- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)
Yeah, this will be appropriate in another 2 months, Ken. (After 10
months already!)
AqeeqahS
Aaron J. Greewnood
Barbara Abernathy <bab...@csp.cse.psu.edu> wrote:
->Does this mean that you don't want to talk about Ireland?
-You obviously can't read you uneducated f*ck, so what I have to say below
-probably won't offend you. If so, GOOD!!!!!!
-You are a fu**ing moron. You are a bigoted a**hole. Die idiot, cause you
-make my kill filelist. You are such a fool. You want to square off, well
-bring it on you stupid, retarded racist f*ck. F*ck you and your issues..
-Discuss that!!!!!
-How'd you like them apples?!!!!!!
I love it when "girls" mad. Isn't Barbie cute.
starbuck
Paul Ashton
>>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science ,
mathematics you name it!!!!!!
Just because man came out of Africa it doesn't necessarily meen that all
the affor mentioned are rooted there.
I'm of the understanding that the near east was the melting pot of
civilisation. having the first States etc...Egypt seem's to be the
only major player from Africa.With what is now the eastern mediteranean,
Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Greece being the major source of western inffluence
via the Roman expansions.
Not to mention early China and the America's.
--
Paul { c/o The vatican }
Barbara Abernathy
>>Barbara Abernathy (bab...@prolog.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
>>>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
>( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science ,
>mathematics you name it!!!!!!
>
>Just because man came out of Africa it doesn't necessarily meen that all
>the affor mentioned are rooted there.
>
>I'm of the understanding that the near east was the melting pot of
>civilisation. having the first States etc...Egypt seem's to be the
>only major player from Africa.
that the first man and the first woman were african. We all know that
nearly all of the biblical figures are African and Yes Christ was African.
African developed a system of writing while the Europeans were still
dwelling in cave.
Ethiopia is where the remains of the first man and woman were found.
The Africans were the first to discover that the universe as they knew it
was heliocentric while the European clung to the geocentric theory years
later.
The great pyramids still stand today in egypt. This is a tribute to the
Africans' mastery of Architecture. They were the first to practice
preserving their dead. I know of no monument that Europeans built that withstood the test of time that the African pyramids did.
It is a known fact that the Greek philosophers studied in Africa and then took
what they learned back to Greece.
>Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Greece being the major source of western inffluence
>via the Roman expansions.
>
>Not to mention early China and the America's.
>
>
>
>
>--
>
> Paul { c/o The vatican }
>
It is my belief, you can correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you all will),
that every human being on this planet is a descendent of Africa.
Tim Clock
>csi...@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Paul Ashton) writes:
>>>Barbara Abernathy (bab...@prolog.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
>>>>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
>>( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science ,
>>mathematics you name it!!!!!!
>>
>>Just because man came out of Africa it doesn't necessarily meen that all
>>the affor mentioned are rooted there.
>>
>>I'm of the understanding that the near east was the melting pot of
>>civilisation. having the first States etc...
It was one of several...
>>Egypt seem's to be the only major player from Africa.
One very major player per continent/per region was just about average...
>Oh come on. We all know that the original Jews were African.
Please share the particulars and remembered sources for this assertion.
I'm not aware than any major biological background in semitic peoples
came from Africa.....except, of course, if we go back to the "humanity
itself developed in Africa" argument.
>We all know that the first man and the first woman were african.
That's the prevailing theory; that don't make it a fact.
>We all know that nearly all of the biblical figures are African and
>Yes Christ was African.
No, "we" all do not known this. There are several theories, your is
not one of the more widely accepted ones. That being the case, I
wish you would present some arguments and reasoning for your state-
ments rather than just tossing them out.
>African developed a system of writing while the Europeans were still
>dwelling in cave.
And the Europeans proceeded to "develop" various innovations while
Africa stopped in its tracks. What does either statement prove? It
proves that people supporting any particular side can play "we're
better than you" just by selecting their ammunition. So?
and...The Middle East developed writing before anybody else and
while most of Africa was in its own cave. So?
Its very true that the broad historical importance of Africa has been long
downplayed in western historical texts, and its about time that this was
corrected. But....'taint no reason to accept the sort of romanticized
Afro-centric "we did it all" stuff presented above.
As a matter of fact, listening to this reminds me so much of
the longstanding Soveit claims to have "invemnted everything",
and the not-so-much-less American claims to have "inventing
everything worthwhile".
>The Africans were the first to discover that the universe as they knew it
>was heliocentric while the European clung to the geocentric theory years
>later.
Indicators of this accomplishment are, from what I've read, rather
sparse; the "evidence" is minimal and requires some "creative inter-
pretation". If, in your opinion, there is *real*, solid evidence
for this statement, I'd appreciate learning of them or where I
might go to locate them.
>The great pyramids still stand today in egypt. This is a tribute to the
>Africans' mastery of Architecture. They were the first to practice
>preserving their dead. I know of no monument that Europeans built that
>withstood the test of time that the African pyramids did.
Hey, what's with the Egypt vs. Europe business. There were other civili-
zations equally advanced during the time of Egypt, and there is indica-
tion as well that their accomplishments filtered to Europe.
>It is a known fact that the Greek philosophers studied in Africa and then took
>what they learned back to Greece.
True. And there was known to be extensive contacts between the writings
and philosophers of Sumeria and the Indus Valley civilizations.
>>With what is now the eastern mediteranean, Iran, Iraq, Turkey and
>>Greece being the major source of western inffluence via the Roman
>>expansions. Not to mention early China and the America's.
>
This is an important point that needs to be added here. What is labelled
"civilization" developed, as far as our dating techniques have been able
to establish, at approximately the same time in Egypt, Sumeria, the Indus
Valley and China.
>It is my belief, you can correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you all will),
>that every human being on this planet is a descendent of Africa.
>
I have heard that theory, as well as the one that has us descendants
from one particular resident of Africa. I have also heard that these
theories are based largely on woefully limited fossil records and, so,
contain a fair amount of conjecture (as well as supporting fossil evi-
dence).
In either case, there are many notable human achievements that took
place in Africa, and that were accomplished by Africans. But, IMO,
there is no reason to overstate that record to the point of "centrism".
Blaine R. Mossburg
Sorry for any confusion. However, there are so many responses and
deletions I am not really sure who said what! Therefore, I have broken the
arguments into the two sides:
A> marks an argument for Afrocentrism
C> marks a counter-argument
Contributing posters:
> tcl...@orion.oac.uci.edu writes:
> Barbara Abernathy <bab...@scheme.cse.psu.edu> wrote:
> csi...@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Paul Ashton) writes:
> Barbara Abernathy (bab...@prolog.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
A> We all know that nearly all of the biblical figures are African and
A> Yes Christ was African.
C> No, "we" all do not known this. There are several theories, your is
C> not one of the more widely accepted ones. That being the case, I
C> wish you would present some arguments and reasoning for your state-
C> ments rather than just tossing them out.
Atheists use this argument as proof God does not exist. If Jesus
really lived, why is his race disputed? Being an atheist, I believe there
was a Hebrew named Jesus of Nazareth. However, I do not believe he was God
incarnate. He was an inspirational leader and regarded as a wise man.
A> African developed a system of writing while the Europeans were still
A> dwelling in cave.
No, the Mesopotamians developed cuneiform. The Mesopotamian
civilization had thrived in the floodlands of modern Iraq. Iraqis are an
Arab people.
A> The Africans were the first to discover that the universe as they knew it
A> was heliocentric while the European clung to the geocentric theory years
A> later.
The Greek mathematicians had proven the earth was round and measured
her circumference almost the the meter. The "geocentric theory" was enforced
by the Church in Medieval Europe. Contrary to popular belief, Christopher
Columbus was not the only person in 15th Century Europe to believe the earth is
round.
C> Indicators of this accomplishment are, from what I've read, rather
C> sparse; the "evidence" is minimal and requires some "creative inter-
C> pretation". If, in your opinion, there is *real*, solid evidence
C> for this statement, I'd appreciate learning of them or where I
C> might go to locate them.
A> The great pyramids still stand today in egypt. This is a tribute to the
A> Africans' mastery of Architecture.
Killing thousands of slaves to produce it.
A> I know of no monument that Europeans built that withstood the test of time
A> that the African pyramids did.
They are not "African" pyramids. The Great Pyramids were built by
Egyptians. The reason why there are no European monuments as old as those in
Africa, South America, and China is there were no strong central governments
in Europe during the same eras. Why are there no aboriginal monuments in
Australia and North America?
C> Hey, what's with the Egypt vs. Europe business. There were other civili-
C> zations equally advanced during the time of Egypt, and there is indica-
C> tion as well that their accomplishments filtered to Europe.
A> It is a known fact that the Greek philosophers studied in Africa and
A> then took what they learned back to Greece.
Cultural diffusion is a well-founded theory. Contact with foreign
cultures often results in the exchange of ideas and technology. This is
nothing new. It is also a known fact through cultural diffusion, Egypt was
given Cleopatra.
C> True. And there was known to be extensive contacts between the writings
C> and philosophers of Sumeria and the Indus Valley civilizations.
C> This is an important point that needs to be added here. What is labelled
C> "civilization" developed, as far as our dating techniques have been able
C> to establish, at approximately the same time in Egypt, Sumeria, the Indus
C> Valley and China.
A> It is my belief, you can correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you all will),
A> that every human being on this planet is a descendent of Africa.
It is your belief. It is also backed by current anthropological and
archaeological data. What if tomorrow someone dug up even older bones in
Stockholm, Sweden?
C> I have heard that theory, as well as the one that has us descendants
C> from one particular resident of Africa. I have also heard that these
C> theories are based largely on woefully limited fossil records and, so,
C> contain a fair amount of conjecture (as well as supporting fossil evi-
C> dence).
It is ignorant of many black activists to flaunt the successes of
Egyptian civilization. Why? Egyptians are not black Africans.
Barbara Abernathy
>
> Sorry for any confusion. However, there are so many responses and
>deletions I am not really sure who said what! Therefore, I have broken the
>arguments into the two sides:
>
>C> marks a counter-argument
>
>Contributing posters:
>> tcl...@orion.oac.uci.edu writes:
>> Barbara Abernathy <bab...@scheme.cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>> csi...@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Paul Ashton) writes:
>> Barbara Abernathy (bab...@prolog.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
>
>A> We all know that nearly all of the biblical figures are African and
>A> Yes Christ was African.
>
>C> No, "we" all do not known this. There are several theories, your is
>C> not one of the more widely accepted ones. That being the case, I
>C> wish you would present some arguments and reasoning for your state-
>C> ments rather than just tossing them out.
>
> Atheists use this argument as proof God does not exist. If Jesus
>really lived, why is his race disputed? Being an atheist, I believe there
>was a Hebrew named Jesus of Nazareth. However, I do not believe he was God
>incarnate. He was an inspirational leader and regarded as a wise man.
>
>A> African developed a system of writing while the Europeans were still
>A> dwelling in cave.
>
> No, the Mesopotamians developed cuneiform. The Mesopotamian
>civilization had thrived in the floodlands of modern Iraq. Iraqis are an
>Arab people.
>
>A> The Africans were the first to discover that the universe as they knew it
>A> was heliocentric while the European clung to the geocentric theory years
>A> later.
>
> The Greek mathematicians had proven the earth was round and measured
>her circumference almost the the meter.
Stolen from Africa!!!!
> The "geocentric theory" was enforced
>by the Church in Medieval Europe. Contrary to popular belief, Christopher
>Columbus was not the only person in 15th Century Europe to believe the earth is
>round.
>
>C> Indicators of this accomplishment are, from what I've read, rather
>C> sparse; the "evidence" is minimal and requires some "creative inter-
>C> pretation". If, in your opinion, there is *real*, solid evidence
>C> for this statement, I'd appreciate learning of them or where I
>C> might go to locate them.
>
>
>A> It is my belief, you can correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you all will),
>A> that every human being on this planet is a descendent of Africa.
>
> It is your belief. It is also backed by current anthropological and
>archaeological data. What if tomorrow someone dug up even older bones in
>Stockholm, Sweden?
>
>C> I have heard that theory, as well as the one that has us descendants
>C> from one particular resident of Africa. I have also heard that these
>C> theories are based largely on woefully limited fossil records and, so,
>C> contain a fair amount of conjecture (as well as supporting fossil evi-
>C> dence).
>
> It is ignorant of many black activists to flaunt the successes of
>Egyptian civilization. Why? Egyptians are not black Africans.
Wrong, It is extremely IGNORANT to say that Egyptians are not Africans.
I guess Western cultures just can't handle it.
Barbara Abernathy
>Egyptian civilization. Why? Egyptians are not black Africans.
Hey are you one of the people who believe the Chris Columbus discovered
America? Hah!!!
Harold B. Johnson
>
>
> The Greek mathematicians had proven the earth was round and measured
>her circumference almost the the meter. The "geocentric theory" was enforced
>by the Church in Medieval Europe. Contrary to popular belief, Christopher
>Columbus was not the only person in 15th Century Europe to believe the earth is
>round.
heavens, having nothing to do with round vs flat. Geocentrism (the religious
belief) held that the earth was the center of the universe and the planets,
sun, and stars revolved around it in well-defined spheres. Heliocentrism,
theorized by Copernicus, held that the sun was the center of the universe,
with Earth being just another planet...
>A> The great pyramids still stand today in egypt. This is a tribute to the
>A> Africans' mastery of Architecture.
>
> Killing thousands of slaves to produce it.
slave labor, but instead an organized effort of hired workmen. My source is
unfortunately vague, but I first heard of it on the Discovery channel.
>A> I know of no monument that Europeans built that withstood the test of time
>A> that the African pyramids did.
>
> They are not "African" pyramids. The Great Pyramids were built by
>Egyptians
And we all know Egypt is on the continent of Africa.
> It is ignorant of many black activists to flaunt the successes of
>Egyptian civilization. Why? Egyptians are not black Africans.
Today that statement may be correct. Judging by the features and colors of
the people represented in countless examples of ancient Egyptian art it
appears that the statement holds for 4000 years ago as well, but this is
by no means a guarantee. I tend to believe that the Egyptians were NOT
black Africans, but rather had their roots in Arabia and points east, but
this is still just a belief.
Harold B. Johnson
>In article <1993Oct6....@news.unomaha.edu> jki...@cwis.unomaha.edu (Blaine R. Mossburg) writes:
*WHOLE LOT of irrelevant stuff deleted*
>> No, the Mesopotamians developed cuneiform. The Mesopotamian
>>civilization had thrived in the floodlands of modern Iraq. Iraqis are an
>>Arab people.
>>
>Don't you think that land masss was once part of Africa??? Hmmmmm.....
Oh come on! Get a grip! And Africa was a part of Tangenia and Tangenia was
part of the core of the earth and the core of the earth was once a mass of
hydrogen atoms drifting thru space!!
*WHOLE LOT of irrelevant stuff deleted*
>> It is ignorant of many black activists to flaunt the successes of
>>Egyptian civilization. Why? Egyptians are not black Africans.
>
>Wrong, It is extremely IGNORANT to say that Egyptians are not Africans.
>I guess Western cultures just can't handle it.
Umm, Ms. Abernathy, if you really ARE so intelligent why is the concept
of deleting the 99% of the article that you DONT have a comment on such
a difficult one to grasp?
Harold B. Johnson
Oh THIS should be good. Please tell us who, in your opinion, discovered
America. I'll bet it's gonna be somebody WAY before the Norsemen who made
settlements in Newfoundland, hell, you'll probably put it back well before
the Greeks, whose anicent wares have been popping up along Brazil's coast
for quite some time now.
Brad Pierce
>was a Hebrew named Jesus of Nazareth. However, I do not believe he was God
>incarnate. He was an inspirational leader and regarded as a wise man.
And your evidence, sir? Among non-Christians in general, not only
among atheists, there is much doubt about the historicity of "Jesus of
Nazareth". This doubt is based on more than the mere dearth of
contemporaneous evidence about Jesus and his Twelve.
When studying the Christian scriptures one must keep in mind that the
earliest extant Christian writings are the (genuine) Pauline epistles.
The synoptic gospels and the gospel attributed to John were written
much later. Although Paul talks about Jesus' crucifixion and
resurrection, he doesn't fix Jesus in a particular time period nor give
biographical details prior to the crucifixion. Moreover, at various
points in Paul's epistles one or another saying attributed to Jesus by
later authors would seem to directly support Paul's doctrines, yet he
consistently fails to cite such sayings.
Note that I am far from an expert on history or Christology, so "caveat
emptor". If you're interested in delving deeper into the question of
the historicity of Jesus, a good place to start is the books of George
Albert Wells. Here's an excerpt from Wells' _Did Jesus Exist?_, (London
: Elek/Pemberton), 1975; p. 182:
"I have tried, then, to account for belief in the historicity of
saviour gods in terms of erroneous inferences - religious rites and
symbols, being no longer understood, were given new interpretations.
Another kind of erroneous inference which has been important in
religious evolution is that written descriptions of some event
(historical or imaginary) may be read by persons who know nothing of
the real subject represented, and who freshly interpret the document
in accordance with their own knowledge. In this way they may take
the writing to refer to people entirely unknown to the actual
writers. In the Psalms, for instance, the term 'the anointed' or
'the Messiah' is used to designate the reigning king. Later
generations, reading the Psalms when the historical kingship had
ceased to exist, nevertheless assumed that the meaning of the
Psalmist had some relevance to present times; and that since there
were no more kings in the old sense, his reference must be to
another king or Messiah, perhaps in heaven (cf. above, p 111). An
example important for Christian origins of this kind of
reinterpretation of old documents is the way Paul and other early
Christian writers interpret OT passages as references to Jesus. It
has long been appreciated that a great deal of Jesus' biography was
constructed from OT models. Later, Paul's writings were in turn
interpreted by Christians who were too remote from the earliest
Christian times to properly understand them. He had written of the
practice of speaking in 'tongues' of ecstasy (1 Cor. 14:5). The
author of Acts took this to mean the speaking of foreign languages,
and explained the apostles' ability to speak them by his story of
the miracle of Pentecost (2:1-13). Such misinterpretations and
misunderstandings meant that the original traditions were completely
remoulded in perfectly good faith - deliberate falsification or
fraud was not involved. What is essential to my thesis (that there
was no historical Jesus) is that such misinterpretations should fail
to be corrected. And the reason for this is that they refer to past
events which no experience can directly reproduce."
-- Brad Pierce -- 6/October/1993
Barbara Abernathy
How can you discover a populated place? Huh? If I were to sail to England and
plant me flag there and say that I discovered England, would I be
acknowledge as the person that discovered America.
Barbara Abernathy
If your reading skills are so darn good than why would you ask me about
that.
Mr. Johnson it seems that you either didn't read my posts responding to
the 99% of the article that was deleted.
Any literate person would know that I was responding to that one statement. ANY
LITERATE person who hasn't slam dunk me in theeir killfilelist would have
read the response to the other 99% of the article.
NICE TRY!!!!!!!!
Barbara Abernathy
>Barbara Abernathy <bab...@scheme.cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>>csi...@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Paul Ashton) writes:
>>>>Barbara Abernathy (bab...@prolog.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
>>>>>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
>>>( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science ,
>>>mathematics you name it!!!!!!
>>>
>>>Just because man came out of Africa it doesn't necessarily meen that all
>>>the affor mentioned are rooted there.
>>>
>>>I'm of the understanding that the near east was the melting pot of
>>>civilisation. having the first States etc...
>
>It was one of several...
>
>>>Egypt seem's to be the only major player from Africa.
>
>One very major player per continent/per region was just about average...
>
>>Oh come on. We all know that the original Jews were African.
>
>Please share the particulars and remembered sources for this assertion.
>I'm not aware than any major biological background in semitic peoples
>came from Africa.....except, of course, if we go back to the "humanity
>itself developed in Africa" argument.
>
Ever wonder where the term semite comes from???? Hmmmmm...
>>We all know that the first man and the first woman were african.
>
>That's the prevailing theory; that don't make it a fact.
>
Does it frighten you that your great great greaat great ..........
.........great cousin was probably named Nzumbi.
Archeology supports my claim how 'bout yours? ( Oh you didn't make one sorry.).
>>We all know that nearly all of the biblical figures are African and
>>Yes Christ was African.
>
>No, "we" all do not known this. There are several theories, your is
>not one of the more widely accepted ones. That being the case, I
>wish you would present some arguments and reasoning for your state-
>ments rather than just tossing them out.
>
Carefully read a Non (Eurocentric) King James bible.
>>African developed a system of writing while the Europeans were still
>>dwelling in cave.
>
>And the Europeans proceeded to "develop" various innovations while
>Africa stopped in its tracks. What does either statement prove? It
>proves that people supporting any particular side can play "we're
>better than you" just by selecting their ammunition. So?
>
A lot of the "so-called" European innovations were STOLEN (yes stolen) from
the Africans. It's nothing new.
>and...The Middle East developed writing before anybody else and
>while most of Africa was in its own cave. So?
>
>Its very true that the broad historical importance of Africa has been long
>downplayed in western historical texts, and its about time that this was
>corrected. But....'taint no reason to accept the sort of romanticized
>Afro-centric "we did it all" stuff presented above.
Is it romaanticized?? Come on!!1
I'm not saying Africans discovered everything or are superior to anyone.
I am simply stating african acheievements.And how Africans laid the
foundations for civilizations.
Think of it as your parents laying down your foundation as a person.
You don't think of yourself as less than your parents, but you don't think
that your superior to them. Don't you just think of them as your precessors.
Don't you learn from their mistakes and discover new things from their wisdom.
(these are all rhetorical questions -- used to try and illustrate my point)
Barbara Abernathy
>>csi...@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Paul Ashton) writes:
>>>>Barbara Abernathy (bab...@prolog.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
>>>>>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
>>>( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science ,
>>>mathematics you name it!!!!!!
>>>
>>>Just because man came out of Africa it doesn't necessarily meen that all
>>>the affor mentioned are rooted there.
>>>
>>>I'm of the understanding that the near east was the melting pot of
>>>civilisation. having the first States etc...
>
>It was one of several...
>
>>>Egypt seem's to be the only major player from Africa.
>
>One very major player per continent/per region was just about average...
>
>>Oh come on. We all know that the original Jews were African.
>
>Please share the particulars and remembered sources for this assertion.
>I'm not aware than any major biological background in semitic peoples
>came from Africa.....except, of course, if we go back to the "humanity
>itself developed in Africa" argument.
>
>>We all know that the first man and the first woman were african.
>
>That's the prevailing theory; that don't make it a fact.
Archeology proves me right. What do you have to disprove the fact.
>
>>We all know that nearly all of the biblical figures are African and
>>Yes Christ was African.
>
>No, "we" all do not known this. There are several theories, your is
>not one of the more widely accepted ones. That being the case, I
>wish you would present some arguments and reasoning for your state-
>ments rather than just tossing them out.
Try and deny it all you want. They were Abraham, Issac, Elijah, Moses, the Pharoahs,
Saul, David, JESUS. Read the bible carefully , preferably not a king JAmes version.
It seems to have a eurocentric twist to it.
>
>>African developed a system of writing while the Europeans were still
>>dwelling in cave.
>
>And the Europeans proceeded to "develop" various innovations while
>Africa stopped in its tracks. What does either statement prove? It
>proves that people supporting any particular side can play "we're
>better than you" just by selecting their ammunition. So?
>
A lot of the "So-called" European innovations (were stolen from the Africans).
Africa's development was stopped by the savage and uncivilized barbarians.
It was only when they came in contact with the Africans were they able to develop.
Prior to that they were warring aamongst themselves and scratching around in caves
>and...The Middle East developed writing before anybody else and
>while most of Africa was in its own cave. So?
Believe what you want.
>
>Its very true that the broad historical importance of Africa has been long
>downplayed in western historical texts, and its about time that this was
>corrected.
Western fears let to this!
> But....'taint no reason to accept the sort of romanticized
>Afro-centric "we did it all" stuff presented above.
Why not the Whites have that attitude (which is ridiculously unjustified!!, being
that AFricans started civilization).
>
> As a matter of fact, listening to this reminds me so much of
> the longstanding Soveit claims to have "invemnted everything",
> and the not-so-much-less American claims to have "inventing
> everything worthwhile".
>
>>The Africans were the first to discover that the universe as they knew it
>>was heliocentric while the European clung to the geocentric theory years
>>later.
>
>Indicators of this accomplishment are, from what I've read, rather
>sparse; the "evidence" is minimal and requires some "creative inter-
>pretation".
Precisely the Euroceentric response I expected!
> If, in your opinion, there is *real*, solid evidence
>for this statement, I'd appreciate learning of them or where I
>might go to locate them.
Take an AFrican history course. You're certainly not going to be exposed to
African contribution, through regular Eurocentric /Western History courses.
>
>>The great pyramids still stand today in egypt. This is a tribute to the
>>Africans' mastery of Architecture. They were the first to practice
>>preserving their dead. I know of no monument that Europeans built that
>>withstood the test of time that the African pyramids did.
>
>Hey, what's with the Egypt vs. Europe business. There were other civili-
>zations equally advanced during the time of Egypt, and there is indica-
>tion as well that their accomplishments filtered to Europe.
>
>>It is a known fact that the Greek philosophers studied in Africa and then took
>>what they learned back to Greece.
>
>True. And there was known to be extensive contacts between the writings
>and philosophers of Sumeria and the Indus Valley civilizations.
>
>
>>>With what is now the eastern mediteranean, Iran, Iraq, Turkey and
>>>Greece being the major source of western inffluence via the Roman
>>>expansions. Not to mention early China and the America's.
>>
>This is an important point that needs to be added here. What is labelled
>"civilization" developed, as far as our dating techniques have been able
>to establish, at approximately the same time in Egypt, Sumeria, the Indus
>Valley and China.
Hah! I guess that Westerners can't accept the truth.
>
>>It is my belief, you can correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you all will),
>>that every human being on this planet is a descendent of Africa.
>>
>
>I have heard that theory, as well as the one that has us descendants
>from one particular resident of Africa.
>I have also heard that these
>theories are based largely on woefully limited fossil records and, so,
>contain a fair amount of conjecture (as well as supporting fossil evi-
>dence).
>
>In either case, there are many notable human achievements that took
>place in Africa, and that were accomplished by Africans. But, IMO,
>there is no reason to overstate that record to the point of "centrism".
>
Is it centrism or just a statement of the truth?
>
Harold B. Johnson
>How can you discover a populated place? Huh? If I were to sail to England and
>plant me flag there and say that I discovered England, would I be
>acknowledge as the person that discovered America.
Nope, I can pretty safely say that if you planted a flag in ENGLAND you
wouldnt be credited with the discovery of America.
John Brock
>How can you discover a populated place? Huh? If I were to sail to England and
>plant me flag there and say that I discovered England, would I be
>acknowledge as the person that discovered America.
It is entirely possible to discover a populated place. If an American
Indian had sailed a big canoe across the Atlantic and landed in
Liverpool, he would have been perfectly entitled to go back home and
tell his countrymen that he had discovered England. As long as he
didn't pretend to be the first person to discover it, he would have
been doing nothing wrong.
To put it in another context, if I go hiking and come back and tell you
I "discovered" a beautiful little clearing in the woods, am I claiming
no one else has ever seen it?
--
John Brock
jbr...@panix.com
Harold B. Johnson
Oh, this is good. Well you'd better believe I read everything you had to say.
How could I help it? you posted the same 80-line articel three times with
only a few lines of statement about a particular section or two in each of
those postings. The rest was pure waste, and completely unnecessary. But,
maybe you dont know how to delete a line. That being the case I suggest you
find a manual and learn how, it's REAL easy.
Harry
Barbara Abernathy
Duh!! You know what I meant!! So don't EVEN try it.
Barbara Abernathy
Ha ha you're a bucket of laaughs
Richard Luehrs
> Barbara Abernathy <bab...@scheme.cse.psu.edu> wrote:
(much deleted)
> >We all know that the first man and the first woman were african.
>
> That's the prevailing theory; that don't make it a fact.
(much deleted)
I'm not sure of the reference here. If you're referring to the "Eve"
hypothesis, the evidence is substantial, but by no means conclusive; but
if you're referring to the evolution of the Genus Homo, that is
conclusive,
Humans evolved first in Africa, then moved into Eurasia. Obviously there
has been further evolution both in Africa and Eurasia since, but there is
no
doubt where humans came from.
Richard Luehrs
Richard Luehrs
> Barbara Abernathy <bab...@scheme.cse.psu.edu> wrote:
(much deleted)
> >We all know that the first man and the first woman were african.
>
> That's the prevailing theory; that don't make it a fact.
(much deleted)
Seth Breidbart
Barbara Abernathy <bab...@scheme.cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>The great pyramids still stand today in egypt. This is a tribute to the
>Africans' mastery of Architecture.
Since my ancestors were slaves of the Egyptians, I guess that means
I'm entitled to compensation from all Africans and their descendants,
right?
Seth
Barbara Abernathy
Mr. Clock i will post references!! To up all of the claims made in the post!
It is just bigotted idle chatter! I will back it up...
Jawaid Bazyar
>Ha ha you're a bucket of laaughs
And you are a bucket of stupidity, and you're entirely full of it.
Get a grip. We don't care about your global conspiracy theories, or
how you chose to rewrite history to substantiate your null-minded
liberal views.
You are barely capable of writing a sentence that can be considered
above a fifth grade level. _You_ seem to be a product of the very
liberal theories you espouse.
--
Jawaid Bazyar | Like UNIX? Like your Apple IIGS? Then ask
Procyon, Inc. | me about GNO/ME for the Apple IIgs!
baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
--Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 781-3273
no one of consequence
In article <CEHu6...@cse.psu.edu>,
Barbara Abernathy <bab...@modula.cse.psu.edu> wrote:
]In article <2CB24F1...@news.service.uci.edu> tcl...@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
]>Barbara Abernathy <bab...@scheme.cse.psu.edu> wrote:
]>>csi...@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Paul Ashton) writes:
]>>>>Barbara Abernathy (bab...@prolog.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
]>>>>>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
]>>>( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science ,
]>>>mathematics you name it!!!!!!
]>>>
]>>We all know that the first man and the first woman were african.
]>
]>That's the prevailing theory; that don't make it a fact.
]
]Archeology proves me right. What do you have to disprove the fact.
Anthropology. There was no 'first man and woman', that is basically the Eden
legend from the Bible as well as a few other origin legends. Early homonids
developed in Africa and that homo erectus emigrated out of Africa to Eurasia.
Neandertals and homo sapiens sapiens probably also arose in Africa and spread
throughout the world but there are some other theories being considered. There
is also the question of what exactly happened to homo sapiens neandertalis<sp?>
when homo sapiens sapiens developed.
]>>We all know that nearly all of the biblical figures are African and
]>>Yes Christ was African.
]>
]>No, "we" all do not known this. There are several theories, your is
]>not one of the more widely accepted ones. That being the case, I
]>wish you would present some arguments and reasoning for your state-
>>ments rather than just tossing them out.
]Try and deny it all you want. They were Abraham, Issac, Elijah, Moses, the Pharoahs,
]Saul, David, JESUS. Read the bible carefully , preferably not a king JAmes version.
]It seems to have a eurocentric twist to it.
You think the Bible discusses events ACCURATELY?? Do you think the world is
6000yrs or somethin- no, wait. I'm starting to sound like Abernathy now.
[Getting tired of the 'But the Bible says..' arguments being used to prove
anything.. *SIGH*]
]>
]>>African developed a system of writing while the Europeans were still
]>>dwelling in cave.
]>
]>And the Europeans proceeded to "develop" various innovations while
]>Africa stopped in its tracks. What does either statement prove? It
]>proves that people supporting any particular side can play "we're
]>better than you" just by selecting their ammunition. So?
]>
]A lot of the "So-called" European innovations (were stolen from the Africans).
Like, the printing press? Bagpipes? :)
]Africa's development was stopped by the savage and uncivilized barbarians.
]It was only when they came in contact with the Africans
]were they able to develop.
]Prior to that they were warring aamongst themselves
]and scratching around in caves
So... the city-states in China, civilizations in India, Central and South
America all had to sit around in caves waiting for the enlightened Africans
to come show them how to build civilizations? Give me a break. Civilizations
arose by themselves all over the planet.
]>and...The Middle East developed writing before anybody else and
]>while most of Africa was in its own cave. So?
]
]Believe what you want.
As you seem to be.
]>
]>Its very true that the broad historical importance of Africa has been long
]>downplayed in western historical texts, and its about time that this was
]>corrected.
]
]Western fears let to this!
What sort of fear led to your narrowminded views? Are you afraid admitting that
ancient Chinese people and others had nicely built civilizations without any
influence from Africa would diminish you?
]> But....'taint no reason to accept the sort of romanticized
]>Afro-centric "we did it all" stuff presented above.
]Why not the Whites have that attitude
](which is ridiculously unjustified!!, being
]that AFricans started civilization).
I say again, the people in what is known as China and India today had to
scrabble around in the dirt until they recieved guidance from African
civilizations? They could not develop one little thing on their own?
That certainly sounds like a 'we did it all' attitude.
]>
]> As a matter of fact, listening to this reminds me so much of
]> the longstanding Soveit claims to have "invemnted everything",
]> and the not-so-much-less American claims to have "inventing
]> everything worthwhile".
]>
]>>The Africans were the first to discover that the universe as they knew it
]>>was heliocentric while the European clung to the geocentric theory years
]>>later.
]>
]>Indicators of this accomplishment are, from what I've read, rather
]>sparse; the "evidence" is minimal and requires some "creative inter-
]>pretation".
]Precisely the Euroceentric response I expected!
Can you do more than insults and wild proclamations? Oh great, now I'm
going to be flamed by Abernathy for being 'Eurocentric'. Surprise me.
]> If, in your opinion, there is *real*, solid evidence
]>for this statement, I'd appreciate learning of them or where I
]>might go to locate them.
]Take an AFrican history course. You're certainly not going to be exposed to
]African contribution, through regular Eurocentric /Western History courses.
Take an anthropology course. Also read more about other civilizations in the
world.
]>>>With what is now the eastern mediteranean, Iran, Iraq, Turkey and
]>>>Greece being the major source of western inffluence via the Roman
]>>>expansions. Not to mention early China and the America's.
]>>
]>This is an important point that needs to be added here. What is labelled
]>"civilization" developed, as far as our dating techniques have been able
]>to establish, at approximately the same time in Egypt, Sumeria, the Indus
]>Valley and China.
]
]Hah! I guess that Westerners can't accept the truth.
Nor can afrocentricists it seems. Your loss.
]>>It is my belief, you can correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you all will),
]>>that every human being on this planet is a descendent of Africa.
]>I have heard that theory, as well as the one that has us descendants
]>from one particular resident of Africa.
]>I have also heard that these
]>theories are based largely on woefully limited fossil records and, so,
]>contain a fair amount of conjecture (as well as supporting fossil evi-
]>dence).
]>In either case, there are many notable human achievements that took
]>place in Africa, and that were accomplished by Africans. But, IMO,
]>there is no reason to overstate that record to the point of "centrism".
]Is it centrism or just a statement of the truth?
You are centrist in that you seem to believe that if something was built or
developed in Africa, that means that the rest of humanity could not have
invented the same thing independently. You also seem to be narrowminded
enough to immediately think if that as a claim to European superiority. There
are other areas on Terra that developed their own civilizations without help
from Africa *or* Europe. Open your eyes. You are as blind as the Eurocentrics
you decry.
--
|Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wol...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|
|Member Lovely Angels Fan Club/Fire Support Team/Cleanup Crew |
|"Never pilot a mass produced Mobile Suit design"- Anaheim Custom MS's |
|Witty remarks always come to mind 20 minutes after sending your article|
Tim Clock
>tcl...@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>Barbara Abernathy <bab...@scheme.cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>>>csi...@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Paul Ashton) writes:
>>>>>Barbara Abernathy (bab...@prolog.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
>>>>>>That very interesting and all but what about the plight of the african
>>>>( the creator of world civilization , art , medicine, astronomy, science ,
>>>>mathematics you name it!!!!!!
>>>>
>>
>>Please share the particulars and remembered sources for this assertion.
>>I'm not aware than any major biological background in semitic peoples
>>came from Africa.....except, of course, if we go back to the "humanity
>>itself developed in Africa" argument.
>>
>Did you ever wonder how the term semite came about? Hmmmmm......
Don't be shy. Present your opinion straight out. Your one-liner here
hardly qualifies as any sort of explanation, which I thought I politely
asked for above, of your statement.
>>>We all know that the first man and the first woman were african.
>>
>>That's the prevailing theory; that don't make it a fact.
>
>Archeology proves me right. What do you have to disprove the fact.
>
Archaeology "proves nothing". It is a scientifically based attempt to
reconstruct, *as best we can*, what happened in the past. Around the
few pieces of physical evidence we have, we construct what we feel
are the best theories. Theories are not facts and theories are not
proof.
The theory you mention, with which I agree, *is* the
one generally accepted in the field, but it still not
a fact.
>>
>>>We all know that nearly all of the biblical figures are African and
>>>Yes Christ was African.
>>
>>No, "we" all do not known this. There are several theories, your is
>>not one of the more widely accepted ones. That being the case, I
>>wish you would present some arguments and reasoning for your state-
>>ments rather than just tossing them out.
>Try and deny it all you want.
Oh, I thought this was a discussion. You asserted certain things were
"true" but don't seem to want to explain them at all. Ok....end of
discussion.
>They were Abraham, Issac, Elijah, Moses, the Pharoahs, Saul, David, JESUS.
>Read the bible carefully , preferably not a king JAmes version. It seems
>to have a eurocentric twist to it.
So? The Qur'an is decidedly Arabocentric in its twist. The works of
Asante and Diop are similarly twisted with Afrocentrism. So?
>>
>> But....'taint no reason to accept the sort of romanticized
>> Afro-centric "we did it all" stuff presented above.
>
>Why not? The Whites have that attitude (which is ridiculously unjusti-
>fied!!, being that AFricans started civilization).
>
WHY NOT? Because, as you damn well know when you look at the Eurocentric
histories, "centricism" (*Any* form of centricism...) is full of so much
&#@?*%@?%&.
It would be real refreshing one of these days if someone
would come along, object to the prevaling "trend" and
IMPROVE IT, not just substitute his/her own version
of biased snake oil.
[Oh and by the way. When you are refering to European or Euro-american
culture, "whites" doesn't apply.]
>>
>>>The Africans were the first to discover that the universe as they knew it
>>>was heliocentric while the European clung to the geocentric theory years
>>>later.
>>
>>Indicators of this accomplishment are, from what I've read, rather
>>sparse; the "evidence" is minimal and requires some "creative inter-
>>pretation".
>Precisely the Euroceentric response I expected!
If you object to my statement, TELL US WHY...explain.... Ah well,
since your "I am, you're not; Nyah, nyah" one-liners are so perfect
for playground arguing and laughably out of place in any academic
discussion, I assume you are looking for the former. Keep at it...
>
>> If, in your opinion, there is *real*, solid evidence
>>for this statement, I'd appreciate learning of them or where I
>>might go to locate them.
I'd be very interested in continuing this discussion but, with your
refusal to provide your reasoning behing the "truths" you present,
we don't have anything to even focus on. Too bad.
>Take an AFrican history course. You're certainly not going to be exposed to
>African contribution, through regular Eurocentric /Western History courses.
>
Thanks for the advice but I'm way ahead of you. Spent a bunch of years
living in west Africa, majored in African politics in undergraduate univ.,
am taking graduate course in African-American culture and history. Am wri-
ting my thesis on an aspect or Af-Am culture.
>>
>>>It is my belief, you can correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you all will),
>>>that every human being on this planet is a descendent of Africa.
>>>
>>I have heard that theory, as well as the one that has us descendants
>>from one particular resident of Africa. I have also heard that these
>>theories are based largely on woefully limited fossil records and, so,
>>contain a fair amount of conjecture (as well as supporting fossil evi-
>>dence).
>>
>>In either case, there are many notable human achievements that took
>>place in Africa, and that were accomplished by Africans. But, IMO,
>>there is no reason to overstate that record to the point of "centrism".
>>
>Is it centrism or just a statement of the truth?
>>
Since you provide NOTHING to show you even know what "the record"
is, I sincerely doubt you have any idea what the "truth" is. But,
your statements above are a wonderful recitation of the Afrocentric
"party line". Based on what *you* have presented on this newsgroup.
its been all memorization and no comprehension. Too bad.
So................................................................
since you have *not* provided *any* explanation of your statements,
and show no sign that you care to, I can only assume that you do not
wish to discuss with others but that you prefer to talk *at* others.
Until you show that you value exchanging more than just on-liners,
count me out.
Ciao
Tim
William Matt Watkins
#In article <28vdva$d...@osceola.cs.ucf.edu# h...@phys.uucp (Harold B. Johnson) writes:
##In article <CEHuo...@cse.psu.edu# bab...@modula.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
###In article <1993Oct6....@news.unomaha.edu# jki...@cwis.unomaha.edu (Blaine R. Mossburg) writes:
##
##*WHOLE LOT of irrelevant stuff deleted*
##
##
#### No, the Mesopotamians developed cuneiform. The Mesopotamian
####civilization had thrived in the floodlands of modern Iraq. Iraqis are an
####Arab people.
####
###Don't you think that land masss was once part of Africa??? Hmmmmm.....
##
##Oh come on! Get a grip! And Africa was a part of Tangenia and Tangenia was
##part of the core of the earth and the core of the earth was once a mass of
##hydrogen atoms drifting thru space!!
##
##*WHOLE LOT of irrelevant stuff deleted*
##
##
#### It is ignorant of many black activists to flaunt the successes of
####Egyptian civilization. Why? Egyptians are not black Africans.
###
###Wrong, It is extremely IGNORANT to say that Egyptians are not Africans.
###I guess Western cultures just can't handle it.
##
##
## Umm, Ms. Abernathy, if you really ARE so intelligent why is the concept
##of deleting the 99% of the article that you DONT have a comment on such
##a difficult one to grasp?
##
##Harry
##h...@phys.physics.ucf.edu
##
#
#
#
#If your reading skills are so darn good than why would you ask me about
#that.
#
#Mr. Johnson it seems that you either didn't read my posts responding to
#the 99% of the article that was deleted.
#
#Any literate person would know that I was responding to that one statement. ANY
#LITERATE person who hasn't slam dunk me in theeir killfilelist would have
#read the response to the other 99% of the article.
#
#NICE TRY!!!!!!!!
Yeah! Nice try Mr. Johnson, but you'll have to get up
pretty darn early in the morning if you want to make
Abernathy look foolish! All I have to say is either try again.
WMW
William Matt Watkins
#In article <eT31ac...@cybernet.cse.fau.edu# lue...@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Richard Luehrs) writes:
##tcl...@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
##
### Barbara Abernathy <bab...@scheme.cse.psu.edu# wrote:
##
##(much deleted)
##
### #We all know that the first man and the first woman were african.
###
### That's the prevailing theory; that don't make it a fact.
##
##(much deleted)
##
##I'm not sure of the reference here. If you're referring to the "Eve"
##
##hypothesis, the evidence is substantial, but by no means conclusive; but
##if you're referring to the evolution of the Genus Homo, that is
##conclusive,
##Humans evolved first in Africa, then moved into Eurasia. Obviously there
##has been further evolution both in Africa and Eurasia since, but there is
##no
##doubt where humans came from.
##
## Richard Luehrs
#
#
#Mr. Clock i will post references!! To up all of the claims made in the post!
#It is just bigotted idle chatter! I will back it up...
#
Yeah!! Mr. Clock!! Who! Do you think! You are?
The claims in her post is just bigotted idle chatter!
She will! Back it up!
WMW
Barbara Abernathy
And you are a great big bucket of SH*T flies and all. Bazyar shouldn't
you be blowing up buildings or taking hostages or something!!!
You are and idiot and will be treated as such.
I could give a sh*t what a fool like you thinks or feels. Go f*ck yourself.
And you 2nd grade reading level you illiterate f*ck.
Just let me know if you want some more sh*tface.
Round Waffle
I've been quietly watching this festive little flamewar since the
beginning, and all I can say is that I now have little or no respect for
the theory that Africans founded civilization, for Barbara Abernathy, or for
Penn State, who lets someone like her near a computer. Barbara, do
yourself a favor, and either learn some netiquette, or stop posting.
You're only doing your cause harm.
--
+- eg...@titan.ucs.umass.edu --><-- Eat Some Paste -+
+- Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, -+
+- Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork! -+
+----------------- The Durex Blender Corporation -----------------+
Marek
>And you are a great big bucket of SH*T flies and all. Bazyar shouldn't
>you be blowing up buildings or taking hostages or something!!!
>You are and idiot and will be treated as such.
>
>I could give a sh*t what a fool like you thinks or feels. Go f*ck yourself.
>And you 2nd grade reading level you illiterate f*ck.
>
>Just let me know if you want some more sh*tface.
Wha...? Babs, who let you out of your alt.flame pen? You've been a
naughty-naughty girl. Run along now. Quick sticks. I'll paddle you
later.
To everyone else in the various newsgroups...
Apologies. Every now and then Babs slips her leash and starts flamewars
in other groups for no particular reason. She is to be pitied. Not ridiculed.
Again, my heartfelt apologies.
Mark B.
Barbara Abernathy
Hey I have even less respect for you, Mr.Round Waffle and for UMass.
And I certainly could care less what you believe?
Round Waffle
of the people who read this -- a lurker watching a rather amusing little
flame-fest. However, the reason you've been ranting all this time Barbara,
was (I thought) to bring up discussion of the historical achievements of
Africa, which are often ignored by the white media/schools/whatever. Thus,
given that I'm part of the masses that you're preaching to, don't you think
you should certainly give a damn what I (and my fellow Usenet readers)
think? In case that last sentence threw you off, allow me to restate it a
little more clearly: If you piss everyone off, nobody's going to spend half
a minute listening to what you say. Hardly the way to spread the word of
African progress, is it? Maybe I'll just start assuming that either 1)
you're just here to start arguments, 2) your prescription has expired, or
3) someone stole your password, has been posting like a maniac, and hasn't
stopped laughing since. I only wish it was 3.
Erik Hughes
with closed minds. Are you so caught up in that "Afrocentric" history that
you can't even consider the possibility that some of that Western history
could be correct and not just some conspiracy against Africans?
Robbie Westmoreland
Here's a small sample of a "historical" discussion that's unrelated to either
Hitler or T*rkey and the Ar*enians. The thread was originally crossposted to
about 8 or 10 different groups. Please note the follow-up designation above.
In article <CEJ8M...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@csp.cse.psu.edu
(Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>In article <2904dd$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> baz...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
>(Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
>>bab...@modula.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>>
>>>Ha ha you're a bucket of laaughs
>>
>> And you are a bucket of stupidity, and you're entirely full of it.
>>Get a grip. We don't care about your global conspiracy theories, or
>>how you chose to rewrite history to substantiate your null-minded
>>liberal views.
[...deletia...]
>And you are a great big bucket of SH*T flies and all. Bazyar shouldn't
>you be blowing up buildings or taking hostages or something!!!
>You are and idiot and will be treated as such.
[more deletia]
I am in favor of the creation of a moderated history group that excludes
not only robopostings and repetitive postings, but also degenerating
flame wars. The above discussion is about as rational as the "everything
of importance has come out of Africa" thread ever got (if you'll pardon
a touch of hyperbole).
Any moderation that does not specifically exclude ad hominem flamewars
will be insufficient. Does the contemplated "light" moderation have
this as a plank?
--
Robbie Westmoreland rob...@inviso.com
"And if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know..."-Kansas
I'm not normal - I'm differently weird.
(1.0.1) GB/SS d++ -p+(-) c++ l u e- m+ s n- h+ f+ g+ w+ t r++ y+
Barbara Abernathy
>|>
>|> Hey I have even less respect for you, Mr.Round Waffle and for UMass.
>|> And I certainly could care less what you believe?
>|>
>And you expect anyone to care about what you are saying, talk about people
>with closed minds. Are you so caught up in that "Afrocentric" history that
>you can't even consider the possibility that some of that Western history
>could be correct and not just some conspiracy against Africans?
How exactly am I closed minded?? I do not state the accomplishments of the
Europeans and othe Western cultures because everybody knows them already.
My point is to show the lesser known African achievements.
Bertil Jonell
>Did you ever wonder how the term semite came about? Hmmmmm......
No, please tell me.
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
David O Hunt
>How exactly am I closed minded?? I do not state the accomplishments of the
>Europeans and othe Western cultures because everybody knows them already.
>My point is to show the lesser known African achievements.
It seems to me that you are claiming no such thing. From what I've
read in this thread, you seem to be claiming that no matter the western
"white" accomplishment the africans did it first.
Nobody (at least not me) will deny that Egypt had a grand civilization,
and certainly was in Africa (and hence, technically, African). The
Congo had a good bit of culture there too, and the Zulus, etc. But
you seem to be claiming the breadth of early human inquiry solely for
the Africans.
People can have ideas independently too, y'know. Happens all the time.
David Hunt, PhD Grad. Slave | My mind is my own. | Towards both a
Mechanical Engineering | So are my ideas & opinions. | Palestinian and
Carnegie Mellon University | <<<Use Golden Rule v2.0>>> | Jewish homeland!
======================= Bad engineer! No sliderule! =======================
When in doubt, be ruthless. -- The Grand Negis
Walter Horat
> |> >>>In article <CEHyv...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@modula.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
> |> >>>
> |> >>>>How can you discover a populated place? Huh? If I were to sail to England and
> |> >>>>plant me flag there and say that I discovered England, would I be
> |> >>>>acknowledge as the person that discovered America.
> |> >>>
> |> >>>Nope, I can pretty safely say that if you planted a flag in ENGLAND you
> |> >>>wouldnt be credited with the discovery of America.
> |> >>>
> |> >>Duh!! You know what I meant!! So don't EVEN try it.
> |> >
> |> > I've been quietly watching this festive little flamewar since the
> |> >beginning, and all I can say is that I now have little or no respect for
> |> >the theory that Africans founded civilization, for Barbara Abernathy, or for
> |> >Penn State, who lets someone like her near a computer. Barbara, do
> |> >yourself a favor, and either learn some netiquette, or stop posting.
> |> >You're only doing your cause harm.
> |> >
> |> >
> |> >--
> |> >+- eg...@titan.ucs.umass.edu --><-- Eat Some Paste -+
> |> >+- Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, -+
> |> >+- Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork! -+
> |> >+----------------- The Durex Blender Corporation -----------------+
> |>
> |> Hey I have even less respect for you, Mr.Round Waffle and for UMass.
> |> And I certainly could care less what you believe?
> |>
> And you expect anyone to care about what you are saying, talk about people
> with closed minds. Are you so caught up in that "Afrocentric" history that
> you can't even consider the possibility that some of that Western history
> could be correct and not just some conspiracy against Africans?
Could you people just exchange telephone numbers and/or addresses and
please continue this obnoxious flame war in person. Go yell at each
other until you get it out of your systems, or just go and beat the
f**k out of each other. At the very least, could you just send your
flames as *private* email to each other.
This flame war has gone on long enough, and the fact that you have been
cross-posting eight ways to Sunday doesn't help either. Learn a little
etiquette and some common courtesy, please...
Regards,
Walt
(Please don't flame me for requesting that you stop)
Peter Nelson
>>>Hey are you one of the people who believe the Chris Columbus discovered
>>>America? Hah!!!
>>
>>Oh THIS should be good. Please tell us who, in your opinion, discovered
>>America. I'll bet it's gonna be somebody WAY before the Norsemen who made
>>settlements in Newfoundland, hell, you'll probably put it back well before
>>the Greeks, whose anicent wares have been popping up along Brazil's coast
>>for quite some time now.
>
>How can you discover a populated place? Huh? If I were to sail to England and
>plant me flag there and say that I discovered England, would I be
>acknowledge as the person that discovered America.
You mean "discovered England", right? Anyway, it may not be true
to say Colombo "discovered" America in the sense that you mean, but
it's not without semantic foundation: "As Barabara returned to the
parking lot she discovered that her car was gone." This does not
imply that you were the first one to notice the lack of a car in
that space, only that *you* didn't know it before.
Anyway, I like to say Colombo, or more precisely, the other
Europeans, *invented* America. America did not exist as a
geographical concept prior to that. The natives who lived in
North America and the Caribbean islands at the time had a much
more limited sense of the "placeness" of it than the Europeans.
---peter
Louis Alberto Bueno
# baz...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
#
# >bab...@modula.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
# >
# >>Ha ha you're a bucket of laaughs
# >
# > And you are a bucket of stupidity, and you're entirely full of it.
# >Get a grip. We don't care about your global conspiracy theories, or
# >how you chose to rewrite history to substantiate your null-minded
# >liberal views.
# > You are barely capable of writing a sentence that can be considered
# >above a fifth grade level. _You_ seem to be a product of the very
# >liberal theories you espouse.
# >
# >--
# > Jawaid Bazyar | Like UNIX? Like your Apple IIGS? Then ask
# > Procyon, Inc. | me about GNO/ME for the Apple IIgs!
# > baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
# > --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 781-3273
#
# And you are a great big bucket of SH*T flies and all. Bazyar shouldn't
# you be blowing up buildings or taking hostages or something!!!
# You are and idiot and will be treated as such.
The above statement is absolutely bigoted, and I condemn the type of
low-grade racist mentality that would permit such a statement to surface in
public...
# I could give a sh*t what a fool like you thinks or feels. Go f*ck yourself.
# And you 2nd grade reading level you illiterate f*ck.
#
# Just let me know if you want some more sh*tface.
...as well as this deliberately inflammatory cesspool swill.
Siempre,
--Louis
Harold B. Johnson
>>
>>
>>--
>> Jawaid Bazyar | Like UNIX? Like your Apple IIGS? Then ask
>> Procyon, Inc. | me about GNO/ME for the Apple IIgs!
>> baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
>> --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 781-3273
>
>And you are a great big bucket of SH*T flies and all. Bazyar shouldn't
>you be blowing up buildings or taking hostages or something!!!
>You are and idiot and will be treated as such.
completely and solely on a person's _name_ for heaven's sake. Ms. Abernathy,
your writing is full of nothing but filth and prejudice, and your attitude
makes you a mockery of a human being. If you find it so difficult to treat
a person (much less a topic in debate) with respect, then perhaps you need
to find something besides newsnet to fill your time.
Seth Breidbart
William Matt Watkins <wwat...@whale.st.usm.edu> wrote:
>Yeah! Nice try Mr. Johnson, but you'll have to get up
>pretty darn early in the morning if you want to make
>Abernathy look foolish!
They don't make an early enough in the morning for anyone else to make
her look more foolish than she does without help.
Seth
Till Poser
In article <CEJ8M...@cse.psu.edu>, bab...@csp.cse.psu.edu
|>In article <2904dd$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> baz...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
|>(Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
|>>bab...@modula.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
|>>>Ha ha you're a bucket of laaughs
|>> And you are a bucket of stupidity, and you're entirely full of it.
|>>Get a grip. We don't care about your global conspiracy theories, or
|>>how you chose to rewrite history to substantiate your null-minded
|>>liberal views.
|>> You are barely capable of writing a sentence that can be considered
|>>above a fifth grade level. _You_ seem to be a product of the very
|>>liberal theories you espouse.
|>And you are a great big bucket of SH*T flies and all. Bazyar shouldn't
|>you be blowing up buildings or taking hostages or something!!!
|>You are and idiot and will be treated as such.
Abernathy, as an attempt to convince the incredulous readership of the
theories You espouse, this falls somewhat short of the mark. Verbal violence
is but the last resort of the intellectually incompetent. What is even
worse is that Your abuse is so puerile, stale and uninteresting, the
laguage so turgid and the grammar so execreably bad that one cannot
but infer both the deplorable lack of erudition and deficient schooling
that seems to have made this abonimation possible.
To top it, You chose to leaven Your expectorations with gratuitious bigotry.
Resorting to inane stereotyping and lowbrow discrimination as a means to
counteract perceived racism is not exactly convincing, nor is it in any
way credible.
|>I could give a sh*t what a fool like you thinks or feels. Go f*ck yourself.
|>And you 2nd grade reading level you illiterate f*ck.
|>
|>Just let me know if you want some more sh*tface.
Let me put it this way, Your level of literacy is much more in doubt than
Bayzar's. Your competence and intellectual faculties are even more so if
one takes Your postings in this thread as a yardstick. You fall short of
even the lowliest standards of argumentative acumen and Your output
resembles nothing so much than the childish temper tantrums of a recalcritant
4-year old spoilt brat, complete with kicking, screaming, rolling on the
floor and the whole range of "imaginative" swearwords that are the norm
for that age.
Kindly grow up!
Till Poser Internet: po...@vxdsyc.desy.de
-R- DESY Computing Bitnet: POSER@DESYVAX
bldg.2b-314, Notkestr.85 Hepnet: VXDESY::POSER (13313::Poser)
D-22603 Hamburg 52 Tel.: -49-40-8998-3219
Ryan R. Snyder
Harold B. Johnson <h...@phys.uucp> wrote:
>In article <CEJ8M...@cse.psu.edu> bab...@csp.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>>In article <2904dd$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> baz...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
>>>--
>>> Jawaid Bazyar | Like UNIX? Like your Apple IIGS? Then ask
>>>
>>you be blowing up buildings or taking hostages or something!!!
>>You are and idiot and will be treated as such.
>
> The above is an unalterably, undeniably BLATANT racist stetement based
>completely and solely on a person's _name_ for heaven's sake. Ms. Abernathy,
>your writing is full of nothing but filth and prejudice, and your attitude
>makes you a mockery of a human being. If you find it so difficult to treat
>a person (much less a topic in debate) with respect, then perhaps you need
>to find something besides newsnet to fill your time.
I agree. I have a hard time believing that a person who sinks to such
racist comments could possibly be intelligent enough to turn on a
computer, much less use the net. However it is that you have come to this
newsgroup is not my concern, but you have just added yourself to yet
another kill file. There is only one thing against which I am prejudiced
and that is idiocy like yours.
--
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Ryan R. Snyder | I am not Kibo.
Consultant, University of Montana CIS | You are not Kibo.
CON...@LEWIS.UMT.EDU/CS00...@SELWAY.UMT.EDU | We are all not Kibo.
Barbara Abernathy
>
>In article <CEJ8M...@cse.psu.edu>, bab...@csp.cse.psu.edu
>(Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>|>In article <2904dd$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> baz...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
>|>(Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
>|>>bab...@modula.cse.psu.edu (Barbara Abernathy) writes:
>
>|>>>Ha ha you're a bucket of laaughs
>
>|>> And you are a bucket of stupidity, and you're entirely full of it.
>|>>Get a grip. We don't care about your global conspiracy theories, or
>|>>how you chose to rewrite history to substantiate your null-minded
>|>>liberal views.
>|>> You are barely capable of writing a sentence that can be considered
>|>>above a fifth grade level. _You_ seem to be a product of the very
>|>>liberal theories you espouse.
>
>|>And you are a great big bucket of SH*T flies and all. Bazyar shouldn't
>|>you be blowing up buildings or taking hostages or something!!!
>|>You are and idiot and will be treated as such.
>
>Abernathy, as an attempt to convince the incredulous readership of the
>theories You espouse, this falls somewhat short of the mark. Verbal violence
>is but the last resort of the intellectually incompetent.
Intellectual incompetent, Poser you must be referring to yourself!!! Nazi!
> What is even
>worse is that Your abuse is so puerile, stale and uninteresting, the
>laguage so turgid and the grammar so execreably bad that one cannot
>but infer both the deplorable lack of erudition and deficient schooling
>that seems to have made this abonimation possible.
Yawn! Yeah when you're finish go get your GED.
>
>To top it, You chose to leaven Your expectorations with gratuitious bigotry.
Your verbal excretions needs to be wiped up.
>Resorting to inane stereotyping and lowbrow discrimination as a means to
>counteract perceived racism is not exactly convincing, nor is it in any
>way credible.
Like I give s sh*t about what you think!
>
>|>I could give a sh*t what a fool like you thinks or feels. Go f*ck yourself.
>|>And you 2nd grade reading level you illiterate f*ck.
>|>
>|>Just let me know if you want some more sh*tface.
>
>Let me put it this way, Your level of literacy is much more in doubt than
>Bayzar's.
Not only is your literacy in doubt but so is you overall intelligence of lack
of it.
> Your competence and intellectual faculties are even more so if
>one takes Your postings in this thread as a yardstick.
Poser, go crawl back under you rock! Or at least get rid of that extra
chromosome!
>You fall short of
>even the lowliest standards of argumentative acumen and Your output
>resembles nothing so much than the childish temper tantrums of a recalcritant
>4-year old spoilt brat, complete with kicking, screaming, rolling on the
>floor and the whole range of "imaginative" swearwords that are the norm
>for that age.
You're sounding mighty stupid about now. But hey, that's normal for you
isn't it.
>
>Kindly grow up!
Kindly die!!! Now!!
karen lee givon
>>Resorting to inane stereotyping and lowbrow discrimination as a means to
>>counteract perceived racism is not exactly convincing, nor is it in any
>>way credible.
>
>Like I give s sh*t about what you think!
Oh, I think you do, otherwise you wouldn't get so ridiculously angry.
You know that you made a very bigotted remark and rather than admit it
was wrong and apologize you simply flew off the handle.
If you didn't care what we thought of you, you wouldn't get so hysterical
when some points out your mistakes or disagrees with you.
-Karen
Chad Gallun
I thought you were saying that any european accomplishment was just stolen
from the africans?
Chad Gallun
: In article <28vdva$d...@osceola.cs.ucf.edu> h...@phys.uucp (Harold B. Johnson) writes:
: >
: >>> It is ignorant of many black activists to flaunt the successes of
: >>>Egyptian civilization. Why? Egyptians are not black Africans.
: >>
: >>Wrong, It is extremely IGNORANT to say that Egyptians are not Africans.
: >>I guess Western cultures just can't handle it.
Please, Harold said Egyptians are not "black" Africans. He made no
reference to whether or not they are Africans. One does not mean the
other. Try to read before flaming.
- C. Gallun