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Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
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David Tenner  
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 More options Nov 9 2012, 7:56 pm
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: David Tenner <dten...@ameritech.net>
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:56:17 -0600
Local: Fri, Nov 9 2012 7:56 pm
Subject: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
From *The Telegraph*, November 4, 2012:

http://tinyurl.com/coubmhp (note the map)

***

British have invaded nine out of ten countries - so look out Luxembourg

Britain has invaded all but 22 countries in the world in its long and
colourful history, new research has found.

By Jasper Copping
9:30AM GMT 04 Nov 2012
564 Comments
Every schoolboy used to know that at the height of the empire, almost a
quarter of the atlas was coloured pink, showing the extent of British rule.

But that oft recited fact dramatically understates the remarkable global
reach achieved by this country.

A new study has found that at various times the British have invaded almost
90 per cent of the countries around the globe.

The analysis of the histories of the almost 200 countries in the world
found only 22 which have never experienced an invasion by the British.

Among this select group of nations are far-off destinations such as
Guatemala, Tajikistan and the Marshall Islands, as well some slightly
closer to home, such as Luxembourg.

The analysis is contained in a new book, All the Countries We've Ever
Invaded: And the Few We Never Got Round To.

Stuart Laycock, the author, has worked his way around the globe, through
each country alphabetically, researching its history to establish whether,
at any point, they have experienced an incursion by Britain.

Only a comparatively small proportion of the total in Mr Laycock's list of
invaded states actually formed an official part of the empire.

The remainder have been included because the British were found to have
achieved some sort of military presence in the territory--however
transitory--either through force, the threat of force, negotiation or
payment.

Incursions by British pirates, privateers or armed explorers have also been
included, provided they were operating with the approval of their
government.

So, many countries which once formed part of the Spanish empire and seem to
have little historical connection with the UK, such as Costa Rica, Ecuador
and El Salvador, make the list because of the repeated raids they suffered
from state-sanctioned British sailors.

Among some of the perhaps surprising entries [not of course surprising to
soc.history.what-if participants, who for example have long discussed the
British in Cuba--DT] on the list are:

* Cuba, where in 1741, a force under Admiral Edward Vernon stormed ashore
at Guantánamo Bay. He renamed it Cumberland Bay, before being forced to
withdraw in the face of hostile locals and an outbreak of disease among his
men. Twenty one years later, Havana and a large part of the island fell to
the British after a bloody siege, only to be handed back to the Spanish in
1763, along with another unlikely British possession, the Philippines, in
exchange for Florida and Minorca.

*Iceland, invaded in 1940 by the British after the neutral nation refused
to enter the war on the Allies side. The invasion force, of 745 marines,
met with strong protest from the Iceland government, but no resistance.

* Vietnam, which has experienced repeated incursions by the British since
the seventeenth century. The most recent--from 1945 to 1946--saw the
British fight a campaign for control of the country against communists, in
a war that has been overshadowed by later conflicts involving first the
French and then Americans.

It is thought to be the first time such a list has been compiled.

Mr Laycock, who has previously published books on Roman history, began the
unusual quest after being asked by his 11-year-old son, Frederick, how many
countries the British had invaded.

After almost two years of research he said he was shocked by the answer. "I
was absolutely staggered when I reached the total. I like to think I have a
relatively good general knowledge. But there are places where it hadn't
occurred to me that these things had ever happened. It shocked me.

"Other countries could write similar books--but they would be much shorter.
I don't think anyone could match this, although the Americans had a later
start and have been working hard on it in the twentieth century."

The only other nation which has achieved anything approaching the British
total, Mr Laycock said, is France--which also holds the unfortunate record
for having endured the most British invasions. "I realise people may argue
with some of my reasons, but it is intended to prompt debate," he added.

He believes the actual figure may well be higher and is inviting the public
to get in touch to provide evidence of other invasions.

In the case of Mongolia, for instance--one of the 22 nations "not invaded",
according to the book--he believes it possible that there could have been a
British invasion, but could find no direct proof.

The country was caught up in the turmoil following the Russian Revolution,
in which the British and other powers intervened. Mr Laycock found evidence
of a British military mission in Russia approximately 50 miles from the
Mongolian border, but could not establish whether it got any closer.

The research lists countries based on their current national boundaries and
names. Many of the invasions took place when these did not apply.

The research covered the 192 other UN member states as well as the Vatican
City and Kosovo, which are not member states, but are recognised by the UK
government as independent states.

The earliest invasion launched from these islands was an incursion into
Gaul--now France--at the end of the second century. Clodius Albinus led an
army, thought to include many Britons, across the Channel in an attempt to
seize the imperial throne. The force was defeated in 197 at Lyon.

Mr Laycock added: "One one level, for the British, it is quite amazing and
quite humbling, that this is all part of our history, but clearly there are
parts of our history that we are less proud of. The book is not intended as
any kind of moral judgment on our history or our empire. It is meant as a
light-hearted bit of fun."

The countries never invaded by the British:

Andorra

Belarus

Bolivia

Burundi

Central African Republic

Chad

Congo, Republic of

Guatemala

Ivory Coast

Kyrgyzstan

Liechtenstein

Luxembourg

Mali

Marshall Islands

Monaco

Mongolia

Paraguay

Sao Tome and Principe

Sweden

Tajikistan

Uzbekistan

Vatican City

***

OK, how about some scenarios of the British invading some of these
countries?  Mongolia is perhaps the easiest--maybe if Garid were still
posting here, he would prove that the British really *did* intervene there
during the Russian Civil War...As for Tajikistan and Uzebekistan, see my
post at
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/msg/d50dfcd2eeb7be89
where I note that "The closest the British had come to intervention in
Turkestan was Malleson's moving into Transcaspia  [in what is now
Turkmenistan--hence Turkmenistan is not one of the 22--DT] in 1918, and
this was very brief--already by February 1919 the troops had been ordered
to evacuate."  As I also note, effective British support for the Basmachis
(who were fighting the Bolsheviks in what is now Uzbekistan and Tajikistan)
would be difficult because it would presumably have to go through
Afghanistan, and "The Afghans were suspicious of the British as well as of
the Bolsheviks."  And of course the pan-Turkist and pan-Islamist ideologies
of some Basmachi leaders would not exactly appeal to the British.

Some other ideas:  Wasn't Britain aligned against Sweden in the Great
Northern War from 1715-1719?  Could this have led to a British invasion of
Sweden (within Sweden's current borders)?  How about a British invasion of
Guatemala (and yes, I know the US will oppose it, but let's say the US is
preoccupied with its own civil war--which need not be the ACW of OTL) due
to the dispute over Belize?  As for the Ivory Coast, could there have been
a British-Vichy clash there during World War II?

Any other thoughts?

--
David Tenner
dten...@ameritech.net


 
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Pete Barrett  
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 More options Nov 11 2012, 11:40 am
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: petebarr...@unknown.co.uk (Pete Barrett)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 16:40:11 GMT
Local: Sun, Nov 11 2012 11:40 am
Subject: Re: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:56:17 -0600, David Tenner

<dten...@ameritech.net> wrote:

>The countries never invaded by the British:

>Andorra

Andorra should be easy. In fact I'm surprised it wasn't invaded by
English troops during the HYW, when they were operating in the area
under the Black Prince, and the Comte de Foix (one of the co-heads of
state of Andorra at the time) was on the French side. (I assume
English troops count before the Union.)

Pete Barrett


 
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The Horny Goat  
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 More options Nov 11 2012, 1:19 pm
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: The Horny Goat <lcra...@home.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:18:48 -0800
Local: Sun, Nov 11 2012 1:18 pm
Subject: Re: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:56:17 -0600, David Tenner

<dten...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>Some other ideas:  Wasn't Britain aligned against Sweden in the Great
>Northern War from 1715-1719?  Could this have led to a British invasion of
>Sweden (within Sweden's current borders)?  How about a British invasion of
>Guatemala (and yes, I know the US will oppose it, but let's say the US is
>preoccupied with its own civil war--which need not be the ACW of OTL) due
>to the dispute over Belize?  As for the Ivory Coast, could there have been
>a British-Vichy clash there during World War II?

>Any other thoughts?

Given the route of Marlborough's armies and Wellington's armies I find
it incredible no British forraging parties passed through either
Luxembourg or Andorra. So in all probability that's OTL. Whether you
choose to call that an 'invasion' or not is a judgment call but
certainly it would be take a VERY small POD to divert either army
through either country.

As for what if's your version of the Ivory Coast and Guatamala seem
entirely credible to me. Weren't the British involved in the proposal
for a Honduran or Nicaraguan canal?


 
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The Horny Goat  
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 More options Nov 11 2012, 1:20 pm
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: The Horny Goat <lcra...@home.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:20:22 -0800
Local: Sun, Nov 11 2012 1:20 pm
Subject: Re: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:56:17 -0600, David Tenner

<dten...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>Some other ideas:  Wasn't Britain aligned against Sweden in the Great
>Northern War from 1715-1719?  Could this have led to a British invasion of
>Sweden (within Sweden's current borders)?  How about a British invasion of
>Guatemala (and yes, I know the US will oppose it, but let's say the US is
>preoccupied with its own civil war--which need not be the ACW of OTL) due
>to the dispute over Belize?  As for the Ivory Coast, could there have been
>a British-Vichy clash there during World War II?

>Any other thoughts?

Apologies for hitting enter too soon but Monaco and the Vatican - I'm
surprised there weren't British forces there in the context of
Operation Dragoon and the capture of Rome in 1944.

 
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Anthony Buckland  
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 More options Nov 11 2012, 1:50 pm
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: Anthony Buckland <anthonybucklandnos...@telus.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:50:34 -0800
Local: Sun, Nov 11 2012 1:50 pm
Subject: Re: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
On 11/11/2012 10:20 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:

Italy was no longer an enemy, so why piss them off
by occupying a religious state sacred to most of the
Italian population?  Not to mention that the Swiss
Guard would feel obligated to put up token resistance;
"British [Anglicans] capture Vicar of Jesus Christ by
force!"

Besides, were there British forces involved in the
capture of Rome at all?


 
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Felix Reuthner  
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 More options Nov 11 2012, 4:26 pm
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: Felix Reuthner <s...@reuthner.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 22:26:23 +0100
Local: Sun, Nov 11 2012 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
Am 11.11.2012 19:20, schrieb The Horny Goat:

> Apologies for hitting enter too soon but Monaco and the Vatican - I'm
> surprised there weren't British forces there in the context of
> Operation Dragoon and the capture of Rome in 1944.

AFAIK the Germans respected the Vatican's neutrality during their
occupation of Rome, so the Allies had no good reason not to do so.

Felix


 
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Richard Gadsden  
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 More options Nov 11 2012, 7:17 pm
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: rich...@gadsden.name (Richard Gadsden)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 00:17 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: Re: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
In article <509fd2db.686883...@news.eternal-september.org> on Sun, 11 Nov
2012 16:40:11 GMT, petebarr...@unknown.co.uk (Pete Barrett) wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:56:17 -0600, David Tenner
> <dten...@ameritech.net> wrote:

> >The countries never invaded by the British:

> >Andorra

> Andorra should be easy. In fact I'm surprised it wasn't invaded by
> English troops during the HYW, when they were operating in the area
> under the Black Prince, and the Comte de Foix (one of the co-heads
> of
> state of Andorra at the time) was on the French side. (I assume
> English troops count before the Union.)

Also surprised that none of Wellington's army went through there in 1814.

--
Richard Gadsden
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it" - Attributed to Voltaire


 
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The Horny Goat  
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 More options Nov 11 2012, 7:37 pm
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: The Horny Goat <lcra...@home.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 16:37:21 -0800
Local: Sun, Nov 11 2012 7:37 pm
Subject: Re: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:50:34 -0800, Anthony Buckland

<anthonybucklandnos...@telus.net> wrote:
>> Apologies for hitting enter too soon but Monaco and the Vatican - I'm
>> surprised there weren't British forces there in the context of
>> Operation Dragoon and the capture of Rome in 1944.

>Italy was no longer an enemy, so why piss them off
>by occupying a religious state sacred to most of the
>Italian population?  Not to mention that the Swiss
>Guard would feel obligated to put up token resistance;
>"British [Anglicans] capture Vicar of Jesus Christ by
>force!"

>Besides, were there British forces involved in the
>capture of Rome at all?

I can assure you that if British troops entered Vatican territory it
would be with the intention of saving His Holiness from the SS or
other assorted nasty Nazis.

At least that would be the official version.

It definitely would not have been in a situation where His Holiness
was dragged out of St. Peters' 'kicking and screaming'.

And no I don't think British troops were involved in 5 June 1944.


 
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Bradipus  
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 More options Nov 12 2012, 4:34 pm
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: Bradipus <ahem-a...@never.mind.it>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:35:54 +0100
Local: Mon, Nov 12 2012 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
The Horny Goat, 19:18, domenica 11 novembre 2012:

> As for what if's your version of the Ivory Coast and Guatamala
> seem entirely credible to me. Weren't the British involved in
> the proposal for a Honduran or Nicaraguan canal?

Wasn't they involved in the formation of Belize?

--
o o


 
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Bradipus  
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 More options Nov 12 2012, 4:34 pm
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: Bradipus <ahem-a...@never.mind.it>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:36:02 +0100
Local: Mon, Nov 12 2012 4:36 pm
Subject: Re: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
Felix Reuthner, 22:26, domenica 11 novembre 2012:

> Am 11.11.2012 19:20, schrieb The Horny Goat:

>> Apologies for hitting enter too soon but Monaco and the
>> Vatican - I'm surprised there weren't British forces there in
>> the context of Operation Dragoon and the capture of Rome in
>> 1944.

> AFAIK the Germans respected the Vatican's neutrality during
> their occupation of Rome, so the Allies had no good reason not
> to do so.

San Marino had some occupation.

--
o o


 
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Kelbert Hawsing  
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 More options Nov 12 2012, 5:05 pm
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
From: Kelbert Hawsing <{$new...@meden.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:02:15 +0000
Local: Mon, Nov 12 2012 5:02 pm
Subject: Re: Challenge: British invade one of these 22 countries
In message <50a16b74$0$17946$4fafb...@reader1.news.tin.it>, Bradipus
<ahem-a...@never.mind.it> writes
>The Horny Goat, 19:18, domenica 11 novembre 2012:

>> As for what if's your version of the Ivory Coast and Guatamala
>> seem entirely credible to me. Weren't the British involved in
>> the proposal for a Honduran or Nicaraguan canal?

>Wasn't they involved in the formation of Belize?

Yes, but that was Belize (formerly British Honduras), not Guatemala. The
question is whether British troops passed beyond the border into current
Guatemalan territory. The other question is whether any points on the
Guatemalan Pacific coast were ever raided by British (or English) naval
forces or privateers.
--
Kelbert Hawsing

 
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