DID HITLER ESCAPE BERLIN ? ! ?
nscolect
I collect war stuff and I hear alot of stories, one of which states that an
eye witness near the bunker at the end of the war saw a helicopter land
near the bunker and pick someone up!! Could this have been Hitler? Borman?
I am looking for more stories that you have heard along these lines..If you
have a story, please
post them here for all to share!! Thank you!!! from Scott at
nsco...@lkdllink.net
ejno...@xs4all.nl
Scott <nsco...@lkdllink.net> writes:
There are many interesting stories about the last days of Berlin. Borman's
possible escape is always good for a few posts. Arthur Axmann, the head of
the Hitler Youth who died a couple of months ago, did escape from Berlin.
I've never heard the story about the helicopter. There was an airstrip in
the Tiergarten, several hundred yards from the bunker, which was used by
the famous testpilot Hanna Reitsch and Ritter von Greim (Goering's
successor as head of the Luftwaffe, I think?) when they visited Berlin a
few days before the end. They then flew from Berlin to Flensburg (where
Doenitz was) where they confronted Himmler with Hitler's accusations of
treason (Himmler had made peace overtures to the Western Allies). If I
remember right, they wanted to take Hitler with them, but he wanted to
stay in Berlin. Maybe that's where the helicopter story comes from.
"The Bunker" by James P. O'Donnell and Uwe Bahnsen is an excellent book on
this subject.
Regards,
Eric-Jan
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric-Jan Noomen Visit the 2nd Page of the Dead
ejno...@xs4all.nl http://www.xs4all.nl/~ejnoomen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strwrs9O
First of all I dont think that could be very true because the Germans
first of all only made one Helicopter During the War: The Flettner FI 282
Kolibri, and that Helicopter stopped production and really never made it.
I have heard some stories where he hid in Brazil for awhile...but I doubt
any story you hear that Hitler survived is true, first because they have
eye witness accounts of SS Guards that burned the bodies and the people
that were in the Bunker also saw the body. Of course there is a slight
possibility that he could of lived, they could of had some kinda copter
hid away for just a situation, I dont know, but most likely not.
Frederich
Lovebug
Try a book called "The Trial of Adolf Hitler".
I have the book, and its a definite good read.
The lawyer that was to defend Hitler, eventually became Hitlers successor
(grin, talk about bloodthirsty lawyers).
> I collect war stuff and I hear alot of stories, one of which states that an
> eye witness near the bunker at the end of the war saw a helicopter land
> near the bunker and pick someone up!! Could this have been Hitler? Borman?
> I am looking for more stories that you have heard along these lines..If you
> have a story, please
> post them here for all to share!! Thank you!!! from Scott at
> nsco...@lkdllink.net
______________________________________________________________________
"Genocide is like a dessert. It is made of the flesh and bones of woman
and children,it is sweetened with the blood of the innocent, and it is
baked in the ovens of Auschwitz."--I wrote this, this is not a quote.
Nils K Hammer
This is a nit-pick about helecopters. ( I think Hitler croaked)
My Salamander book "Hitler's Luftwaffe" says that there were
2 German helecopters in wwII. The Kolibri was already mentioned.
The FA223 Drache was much larger and could lift a ton.It was not
manufactured in large numbers, but could have been.
The Stork airplane that Hannah R. took to Berlin at the end was
almost as good as a helecopter, so this is not really important.
Nils K. Hammer
nh...@andrew.cmu.edu
Gord McFee
In message <5f0k2o$m...@nntp1.u.washington.edu> - "nscolect"
<nsco...@lkdllink.net> writes:
:>
:>I collect war stuff and I hear alot of stories, one of which states that an
:>eye witness near the bunker at the end of the war saw a helicopter land
:>near the bunker and pick someone up!! Could this have been Hitler? Borman?
:>I am looking for more stories that you have heard along these lines..If you
:>have a story, please
:>post them here for all to share!!
The "Hitler survived the bunker" legend is one of the more enduring from
World War II. In the late 1960s, the Russians claimed to have his body
and that of Eva Braun. Subsequent investigations revealed that the
so-called Hitler body was not his (dental records, etc, as well as
physical factors (presence of two testicles), and so on). But the
legend will not go away. Other stories had Hitler having fled to
Argentina; one was so bizarre that it had a squad of Nazis holed up in
the Antarctic, having been spirited there by UFOs!!
The bottom line seems to be that, given the military situation at the
last time Hitler was *known* to be alive, and his explicitly stated
intention to kill himself, so he would not be the object of a Bolshevist
show trial, it is most likely that he committed suicide.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
CTomas1941
russians had some rests of hitler and his dental records were compared and
they matched. saw that during a documentary in the learning channel.
Georg Schwarz
<ejno...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> the famous testpilot Hanna Reitsch and Ritter von Greim (Goering's
> successor as head of the Luftwaffe, I think?) when they visited Berlin =
a
> few days before the end. They then flew from Berlin to Flensburg (where
> Doenitz was) where they confronted Himmler with Hitler's accusations of
> treason (Himmler had made peace overtures to the Western Allies). If I
> remember right, they wanted to take Hitler with them, but he wanted to
> stay in Berlin. Maybe that's where the helicopter story comes from.
Somewhere (in Trevor-Roper's report of 1946?) I think I've read that
D=F6nitz managed to send a water plane to Berlin in the final days of the
war. It landed on the Havel at night, and the pilot was supposed to pick
up some messenger with documents from the F=FChrer HQ (who failed to sho=
w
up in time though).
Another story (mentioned by Bullock?) is that around the same time the
Luftwaffe had three operational, fuled long range bombers at an airfield
at Rechlin, north of Berlin, ready to get Hitler out of Germany, eg.
directly to Spain, Jerusalem, Japan, or Argentinia. (the latter seem a
bit far to me) However, Hitler dismissed any offer to leave Berlin and
Germany.
--=20
Georg Schwarz sch...@physik.tu-berlin.de, ku...@cs.tu-berlin.de
Institut f=FCr Theoretische Physik +49 30 314-24254, FAX -21130
Technische Universit=E4t Berlin http://home.pages.de/~schwarz/
Gord McFee
In message <5f9i57$q...@portal.gmu.edu> - ctoma...@aol.com (CTomas1941)
writes:
:>
:>
:>russians had some rests of hitler and his dental records were compared and
:>they matched. saw that during a documentary in the learning channel.
The documentary is wrong. The claim that led to the documentary (which
I have also seen) was first made by the Russian author Lev Bezymenski in
his book _The Death of Adolf Hitler_, London, 1968, and is effectively
rebutted by the foremost expert on Hitler, Werner Maser in his _Hitler:
Legend, Myth & Reality_, Harper Torchbooks, New York, 1973, pages
311-316. Just one quote:
<begin quote>
The teeth illustrated in Bezymenski's book and adduced by him as proof
of Hitler's body have nothing in common with those that appear on the
September 1944. This effectively demolishes Bezymenski's claim.
<end quote> [page 314]
He adds testimony from persons present when Hitler was burned that there
was nothing left of the head except charred bone after it had been
burned; hence, there were no teeth for the Russians to find. And in
addition, the bridge in the mouth of the corpse that the Russians
claimed was Hitler's were in the wrong place, as compared to the X-ray
photographs.
Hope this is useful to you in your research.
Strwrs9O
<<This is a nit-pick about helecopters. ( I think Hitler croaked)
My Salamander book "Hitler's Luftwaffe" says that there were
2 German helecopters in wwII. The Kolibri was already mentioned.
The FA223 Drache was much larger and could lift a ton.It was not
manufactured in large numbers, but could have been.>>
Yeah, I have that same book...but I dont see anything about the FA223
Drache...and I was reading about the Kolibri, they actually went into Mass
production, and it says they were the only Helicopters to have an impact
on the War. I dunno
Frederich
Ugo Marsolais
In article <5f0k2o$m...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, "nscolect"
<nsco...@lkdllink.net> wrote:
> I collect war stuff and I hear alot of stories, one of which states that an
> eye witness near the bunker at the end of the war saw a helicopter land
> near the bunker and pick someone up!! Could this have been Hitler? Borman?
> I am looking for more stories that you have heard along these lines..If you
> have a story, please
> post them here for all to share!! Thank you!!! from Scott at
> nsco...@lkdllink.net
I don't think Hitler survived the war. Numerous witnesses told about his
suicide in the Bunker and the burning of his dead body in the Chancellery's
Garden. We never really found his whole body however, because of the
massive Russian artillery bombing on the Chancellery at this time that
destroyed anything still left there. That has led to legends about his
supposed escape to South America. But this sounds like the stories about
the still-alive-and-immortal Elvis Presley... it's just hearsay, never
proved by fact. When important people in History die tragically, there is
always someone that will refuse to believe that and will start out a legend
about an alleged "survival" of the historical figure.
But, just for the sake of the argument, let's suppose Hitler survived.
Well, by now, he's certainly dead because he was born in 1889, and we're in
1997. You do the math... So, even if Hitler survived, we must conclude
since we never heard of him again that he remained totally silent and
hidden for the rest of his life and he's now certainly dead. So, I son't
see why people are so much excited about the idea that Hitler might have
survived the war. That changes nothing to the History of WWII or of the
post-war period.
In fact, Hitler is probably now at the head of a new Fourth Reich with
his SS...in Hell! ;-)
--
Ugo Marsolais
Montreal, Quebec
"DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and
millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million
machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that
cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do
not denote a higher life form."
New York Times, November 26, 1991
Marc James Small
In article <5f9hsv$6...@portal.gmu.edu>, gmc...@ibm.net says...
>
>The "Hitler survived the bunker" legend is one of the more
>enduring from World War II. In the late 1960s, the Russians
>claimed to have his body and that of Eva Braun. Subsequent
>investigations revealed that the so-called Hitler body was not
>his (dental records, etc, as well as physical factors (presence
>of two testicles), and so on).
Could you cite a source for this allegation? The Soviets (NOT
the Russians, please note!) DID have the body, examined it, kept
it for years, and finally disposed of it in what was then East
Germany. If there is evidence to the contrary, I'd like to know
about it.
Marc
--
msm...@roanoke.infi.net FAX: +540/343-7315
Cha robh bas fir gun ghras fir!
Mark Hoffman
In article <5f4oan$c...@nina.pagesz.net>, hc...@acs.ucalgary.ca says...
>
>Try a book called "The Trial of Adolf Hitler".
>I have the book, and its a definite good read.
>The lawyer that was to defend Hitler, eventually became Hitlers successor
>(grin, talk about bloodthirsty lawyers).
In John Toland's series "Adolf Hitler", Toland writes several times that Hitler
made it quite clear that he would never live to see the defeat of Germany. The
pain of Versailles would never be felt by him again. The general impression one
might get is that Hitler was not the type of person who would run and jump on a
plane to escape. Rather, he would kill himself to fulfill what he believed was
his ultimate destiny.
--Mark!
-Mayo,H.H.
>destroyed anything still left there. That has led to legends about his
>supposed escape to South America. But this sounds like the stories about
>the still-alive-and-immortal Elvis Presley... it's just hearsay, never
I missed the previous posting mentioning the witnesses who saw nothing
left of his body but charred bones. A friend of mine who is a forensic
expert and WWII buff stated flatly that there is no way that a pit
filled with gasoline could do more than burn away the flesh, and char
a surface layer of muscle. He has seen the results of numerous burn
victims including car crash victims who were incinerated in gasoline
fires. Reduction of a human body to ashes requires temperatures far
higher, and for a longer period than a gasoline fire is capable of
creating. The extant pictures of Goebbel's body show the expected
results of a gasoline creamation, and his body is charred, but generally
intact.
Larry Mayo