Kursk eyewitness accounts?
dumbstruck
for me, so I wondered if there are readible accounts by participants
to at least get the feel of it on the ground? Actually a Stuka or
Shturmovik pilot might have a better view than thru a tank periscope.
I take it that broad accounts of the battle can seem contradictory
because of a lot of recent revisionist material that hasn't yet been
digested into the overall marketplace of ideas http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm
. P.S, I was able to make it to the largest tank museum in the world
without the private transportation that is normally thought needed.
Couple hour train from London's waterloo station to "Wool", then walk
a 2km bike trail heading NW right to the complex in Bovington.
Alan Meyer
> High level accounts of the epic Kursk tank battle just don't
> add up for me, so I wondered if there are readible accounts by
> participants to at least get the feel of it on the ground?
> Actually a Stuka or Shturmovik pilot might have a better view
> than thru a tank periscope.
There is a popular book full of photos and quotes from
eyewitnesses, _Images of Kursk: History's Greatest Tank Battle,
July 1943_ by Nik Kornish, Brown Partworks Ltd., London, 2002.
It's hardly a scholarly or an authoritative source, but it has a
lot of the first person flavor that you might be looking for.
I'm guessing that there a half dozen books like it.
I don't recall much from pilots in the book, however I expect
that, although air crews would have a vision that is better in
many ways than ground pounders, it's also worse in other ways than
those on the ground. I guess you'd like to read both if you
could find them.
> I take it that broad accounts of the battle can seem
> contradictory because of a lot of recent revisionist material
> that hasn't yet been digested into the overall marketplace of
> ideas http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm
"Revisionist" is probably an unfortunate term that has political
connotations you don't intend.
I looked at the cited web page. My impression was that Mr.
Licari, the author of the web page, sets up a strawman (Martin
Caidin, incorrectly spelled "Caiden" on the web page), and then
knocks him down. Granted, Caidin was a very popular author who
must have influenced many readers in the U.S., but probably never
influenced any historians or many serious readers of WWII eastern
front history.
He also redefines terms in order to make points, most notably in
claiming that Kursk was not the greatest tank battle of the war
by redefining Kursk to just be the fighting around Prokhorovka.
As I understand it, all arms, infantry, artillery, tanks, and
aircraft played key roles. I don't think that most people who
call Kursk "the greatest tank battle" mean to imply that other
arms were less important, only that tanks were more prominent
than in other battles of the war.
Alan
GFH
> High level accounts of the epic Kursk tank battle just don't add up
> for me, so I wondered if there are readible accounts by participants
> to at least get the feel of it on the ground? Actually a Stuka or
> Shturmovik pilot might have a better view than thru a tank periscope.
What does not "add up"? The Germans took a major gamble on this
battle, committing virtually all of their resources. The Germans lost
badly.
Perhaps what is missing in your addition is the inability of the
Germans to
replace the losses within any useful time-frame. And the German tanks
were inferior. And as subsequent events proved, developing,
debugging,
producing and introducing into the field of a major weapon system,
which
is what a tank is, takes time and resources. The Germans had neither.
That is why the USA stuck with the Sherman until the end of the war
--
just 11 months from the Normandy invasion. An attempt to upgrade
within
that time-frame would have cost, not saved, lives. And the USA had
virtually infinite resources, as compared to any of the others.
GFH
dumbstruck
> dumbstruck wrote:
>
> > High level accounts of the epic Kursk tank battle just don't
> > add up for me, so I wondered if there are readible accounts by
> > participants to at least get the feel of it on the ground?
> > Actually a Stuka or Shturmovik pilot might have a better view
> > than thru a tank periscope.
>
> There is a popular book full of photos and quotes from
> eyewitnesses, _Images of Kursk: History's Greatest Tank Battle,
> July 1943_ by Nik Kornish, Brown Partworks Ltd., London, 2002.
> It's hardly a scholarly or an authoritative source, but it has a
> lot of the first person flavor that you might be looking for.
I had already peeked at that books entry on Amazon, where a featured
review called it 80% Soviet propaganda. But now I see it included
positive points too.
> I don't recall much from pilots in the book, however I expect
> that, although air crews would have a vision that is better in
> many ways than ground pounders, it's also worse in other ways than
> those on the ground. I guess you'd like to read both if you
Probably it is included in the famous Hans-Ulrich Rudel STUKA memoirs,
which I read as a kid, but I can't tell online if it or a number of
others actually cover Kursk.
> > I take it that broad accounts of the battle can seem
> > contradictory because of a lot of recent revisionist material
> > that hasn't yet been digested into the overall marketplace of
> > ideashttp://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm
>
> "Revisionist" is probably an unfortunate term that has political
> connotations you don't intend.
It just seems that high level accounts disagree with each other and
with detailed snapshots. With the root sources being from mostly a
Stalinist or sometimes from a Fascist dominated authority, it might
take a lot of sleuthing/debunking to resolve anyway.
SolomonW
> What does not "add up"? The Germans took a major gamble on this
> battle, committing virtually all of their resources. The Germans lost
> badly.
They did not lose badly. Some say they won. The importance of Kursk is that
the Germans failed to inflict a major defeat on the Russians. After the
battle, the Russians for the first time were able to keep the initiative in
the summer.
dumbstruck
> What does not "add up"? The Germans took a major gamble on this
> battle, committing virtually all of their resources. The Germans lost
I guess I'm puzzled on why the northern German pincer failed so badly
compared to the southern one, when both were apparently crucial for
crushing the underbelly of the salient. I gather the northern one was
doomed to inferiority, with less tigers to brave the gauntlet, but
resulted in stalemate that tied up german equipment that was badly
needed for the mele with soviet reserves that eventually mauled the
southern pincer.
If Manstein was such a genius, why didn't he make the northern pincer
just a feint and reallocate vital equipment? Or was it a close run
thing, where the northern pincer almost broke thru, or it seemed
plausible based on faulty recon? The southern pincer seemed masterful;
too bad the US and UK didn't take heed how the the Germans got into
uniforms and tanks from the other side and spread panic, before the
same stunt was pulled in battle of the Bulge.
I heard some colorful quotes about Kursk battlefield conditions from
Zhukov's memoirs. Unfortunately reviews of that book on amazon focus
solely on how the Russian battles are under recognized in the US, and
nothing at all on whether his book is enlightening or self serving
crap.
Mike
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