Hitler's alleged "dairies"--Update

[wjho...@aol.com]

In light of some of the ongoing arguments
in this forum about the relative historical
limportance of new information over old,
here is evidence that sometimes fake
history becomes enshrined with the real
thing.

A few weeks ago I wrote in another thread
about a 1980s hoax with regard to the
alleged post-war discovery of a 20-volume
diary said to have been written by Adolph
Hitler.
The hoax grabbed world-wide press
attention at the time and had duped a
prominent British historian, Hugh
Trevor-Roper who was engaged by British
press magnate, Rupert Murdock, to check
the authenticity of the diaries. It had also
fooled a U.S. historian, Gerhard Weinberg,
who was sent by Newsweek to do the same.
The "diaries" later turned out to be the
"brain child" of an antique dealer, Konrad
Kujau, a small time crook who dealt in
wartime memorabilia, and also had a talent
for forgery.
When the truth ultimately surfaced,
the press stories faded away and the incident
was forgotten--until now.
Today's (April 24th) New York Times
carries this update::
"30 Years Later Forged Hitler Diaries
Enter Archives
BERLIN -- When the German newsweekly
Stern announced in April 1983 that it had
acquired Hitler's previously undiscovered
diaries, the magazine's exclusive prompted
a worldwide sensation.... Now, in an unlikely
coda 30 years later, fake history was formally
enshrined as real history on Tuesday when
officials of Germany's Federal Archives said
they would accept a collection of the forgeries
from Stern.... "

WJH

[Rich Rostrom]

"wjho...@aol.com" <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:

> ... sometimes fake history becomes enshrined with
> the real thing.

Consider the case of Dutch painter Han van Meegeren.
He was charged with treason after World War II for
selling a Vermeer painting (a national treasure) to
Hermann Goering during WW II.

To exculpate himself from treason, Meegeren confessed
to forgery. He admitted to having forged dozens of
reputed Vermeers and other "Old Master" paintings.
He demonstrated his ability, and exposed the many
"Old Masters" in prominent museums and collections
that he had faked.

His forgeries became famous, and some collectors began
to buy them, though of course not at "Old Master"
prices".

But the interest in Meegeren forgeries has been
sufficient that other painters have forged _them_.

IOW, they produced faked fakes.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com

[Michael Emrys]

On 4/25/13 10:37 AM, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> IOW, they produced faked fakes.

And thus we enter a house of mirrors...

Michael

[MANITOBIAN]

Isn't Martin Bormann given the credit for keeping a diary like record
of things that Hitler said and did?
Either on this forum, or another I remember Bormann's
writing being quoted, and there were no questions
about their authenticity.
Unless 'old timer's' has me!

[dumbstruck]

On Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:46:33 PM UTC-10, MANITOBIAN wrote:
> Isn't Martin Bormann given the credit for keeping a diary like record
> of things that Hitler said and did?
> Either on this forum, or another I remember Bormann's
> writing being quoted, and there were no questions
> about their authenticity.

You are talking about "Table Talk" where first Bormann then some others
recorded the dinner conversations of Hitler for posterity... I posted
an internet source for most of it. I haven't read the forward by the
translator, but think there was only suspicion that Bormann injected
his own spin when editing stuff (like on organized religion, which he
hated more than anybody).

There are a few lucid and interesting passages in the short part where
Adolph was still winning his war. After that it just seems like unreadable
bombast with no real content that would even matter being true or false.
It's just tedious monologue, often on irrelevant subjects apparently to
show off to Himmler or whomever that he is the alpha dog intellectual.
I guess they say his speeches, writings, and conversation were always
gibberish, but his tone was highly seductive (less of the screechy stuff
we hear excerpted today, which just came at the climax).

I'm reading a strange book called "Hitler, and the power of Aesthetics"
which makes claims that I wonder stood the test of scrutiny. So some
books I don't worry about being a fake, but wonder if it was received
at all well by more knowledgeable folks. This seems to claim Hitler was
a special case among dictators in being driven by art... the art of
real life theater and propaganda, etc... somehow explains a lot of his
eccentricity? Well, that is more of an issue to me... whether to take
the conceptual framework of various offbeat ww2 authors seriously.

[MANITOBIAN]

On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:12:13 AM UTC-5, dumbstruck wrote:
> On Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:46:33 PM UTC-10, MANITOBIAN wrote:
>
> > Isn't Martin Bormann given the credit for keeping a diary like record
>
> > of things that Hitler said and did?
>
> > Either on this forum, or another I remember Bormann's
>
> > writing being quoted, and there were no questions
>
> > about their authenticity.
>
>
>
> You are talking about "Table Talk" where first Bormann then some others
>
> recorded the dinner conversations of Hitler for posterity... I posted
>
> an internet source for most of it.

What I am talking about is best described in this paragraph
written by Albert Speer in his book INSIDE THE THIRD REICH.

"With his typical perseverence, from 1934 on Bormann followed the
simple principle of always remaining in close proximity to the source
of all grace and favour. He accompanied Hitler to the Berghof and on
trips, and in the Chancellery never left his side until Hitler went to bed.
in the early morning hours. In this way Bormann became Hitler's hard-
working, reliable, and ultimately indispensible secretary. He pretended
to be obliging to every one, and almost everyone availed himself of
Bormann's services-all the more so since he obviously served Hitler with
utter selflessness. Even his immediate superior Rudolph Hess, found it
convenient to have Bormann close to Hitler at all times!"

Not table talk!
Many references by Speer to Bormann's position in the Nazi
hiearchy!

[dumbstruck]

On Sunday, April 28, 2013 4:28:50 AM UTC-10, MANITOBIAN wrote:
> Isn't Martin Bormann given the credit for keeping a diary like
> record of things that Hitler said and did?

...later

> What I am talking about is best described in this paragraph
> written by Albert Speer in his book INSIDE THE THIRD REICH.

...
> Not table talk!

If you want to be literal, you must be talking about a practically
useless appointment book where Bormann would write a sentence or
so about the day... I haven't seen it except for a quote or two.
More interesting is a book of his letters to his wife, in which I
have seen quite interesting quotes... sounds worth a look. But for
his diary of what what Hitler said, the answer has got to be Table
Talk, or at least the first several months where he did the transcript.

The only reliable snapshot of informal Hitler was done by the Finns
in a secret recording which can be found in archive.org . He's all
carrot, no stick. Soft, self-deprecating, self-mocking, but creepy
all the same with an insistence of doing all the talking. Albert
Speer did a better job of describing Hitlers day to day style buried
in his Spandau book than in his "Inside the" best seller. In Spandau
he reflected about what was missing in the understanding of Hitler,
that didn't come out in the news-driven other accounts.

Also in archive.org is a small part of Goebbels diary, with frequent
worshipful mentions of contact with the "leader". I believe that
version was one published by the reich for propaganda purposes, so is
very suspect. His other diary parts were since published, but one part
is often missing which only recently filtered out from Russia. It's
interesting to see scholars cross reference these, like how Goebbels
kept Hitler awake half the night before D day talking about art...
so he was allowed to sleep late instead of approving reserves to move.

[Michael Kuettner]

wjho...@aol.com wrote:
> In light of some of the ongoing arguments
> in this forum about the relative historical
> limportance of new information over old,
> here is evidence that sometimes fake
> history becomes enshrined with the real
> thing.
>

No, not really.

> A few weeks ago I wrote in another thread
> about a 1980s hoax with regard to the
> alleged post-war discovery of a 20-volume
> diary said to have been written by Adolph
> Hitler.
> The hoax grabbed world-wide press
> attention at the time and had duped a
> prominent British historian, Hugh
> Trevor-Roper who was engaged by British
> press magnate, Rupert Murdock, to check
> the authenticity of the diaries. It had also
> fooled a U.S. historian, Gerhard Weinberg,
> who was sent by Newsweek to do the same.

Trevor-Roper and Weinberg are at best "historians".
If the buggers can't read the script of the sources
of the time, they shouldn't try to examine a forgery.
(The script is called Korrent or Alt-Deutsch, btw).
I laughed my ass off when I saw the cover of the diaries
with the letters "F H".
"Fritz Hitler" or "F�hrer Hitler" ? <snort>

> The "diaries" later turned out to be the
> "brain child" of an antique dealer, Konrad
> Kujau, a small time crook who dealt in

That one wasn*t a small time crook.
Noone knows how many paintings he also forged.
He _was_ a very good forger.

> wartime memorabilia, and also had a talent
> for forgery.
> When the truth ultimately surfaced,
> the press stories faded away and the incident
> was forgotten--until now.
> Today's (April 24th) New York Times
> carries this update::
> "30 Years Later Forged Hitler Diaries
> Enter Archives
> BERLIN -- When the German newsweekly
> Stern announced in April 1983 that it had
> acquired Hitler's previously undiscovered
> diaries, the magazine's exclusive prompted
> a worldwide sensation.... Now, in an unlikely
> coda 30 years later, fake history was formally
> enshrined as real history on Tuesday when
> officials of Germany's Federal Archives said
> they would accept a collection of the forgeries
> from Stern.... "
>

Yes, where they will be kept as forgeries.
They will serve as sources for the 1980ies, but not
as anything else.
Being able to read understand German would be an advantage
in cases like that ....

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[Don Phillipson]

"MANITOBIAN" <rsve...@mts.net> wrote in message
news:cac8271e-6924-4653...@googlegroups.com...

>> > Isn't Martin Bormann given the credit for keeping a diary like record
>> > of things that Hitler said and did?

"dumbstruck" <dumb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:06463e40-6e21-4749...@googlegroups.com...

>> You are talking about "Table Talk" where first Bormann then some others
>> recorded the dinner conversations of Hitler for posterity...

> Not table talk!

You may be mistaken. "Table Talk" is and was a recognized
literary genre, especially in Germany, ever since the 1835
Conversations with Goethe by Johann Eckermann (Goethe's
secretary.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Table_Talk
lists several books published as Hitler's Table Talk, some
of it written by Bormann.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)