Soviet radar?
Rich Rostrom
attacks on the USSR came up. As noted
elsewhere this is an obscure area for westerners.
One question occurred to me.
The Germans made some raids on Soviet
cities, especially Moscow, in 1941-42 (and
perhaps later).
Once source I have mentions British air
raid protection experts going to the USSR
to assist the Soviets.
What about air defenses generally? In
particular, what about _radar_? Did the
western Allies (Britain, really) give the
Soviets any radar equipment to use in
air defenses? Or any technical advice
on building their own? _Did_ the Soviets
build any radars of their own?
Don Phillipson
news:4ff34e83-5695-4875...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
> Did the western Allies (Britain, really) give the
> Soviets any radar equipment to use in
> air defenses? Or any technical advice
> on building their own? _Did_ the Soviets
> build any radars of their own?
Canada built GL Mark 3 radar sets (based on the
1940 Gun Layer Mk.1) which were evaluated in
Britain (1943?) and rejected as unsuitable for use
in the field -- so they were sent to Russia. I think
this also happened to Canadian-built Ram tanks
(also judged unwanted in NW Europe.)
The USSR liaison mission in Washington had in
principle access to information from such secret
R&D Laboratories as the Radiation Lab. at MIT,
although this may have been filtered through
US intelligence. By 1945 it appears the mission
was sending at least one aircraft per week full
of blueprints and samples home to Russia
(westbound from Washington, via Alaska to
eastern Siberia.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
British liaison policy from 1941 was to provide
the USSR with almost any information it sought
(but possibly not details of RDX explosive production,
one of the topics sought by Russian spies in Canada.)
As late as 1946 Britain supplied sample jet engines
to the USSR.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
GFH
wrote:
> In a recent thread the subject of German air
> attacks on the USSR came up. As noted
> elsewhere this is an obscure area for westerners.
>
> One question occurred to me.
>
> The Germans made some raids on Soviet
> cities, especially Moscow, in 1941-42 (and
> perhaps later).
> What about air defenses generally? In
> particular, what about _radar_? Did the
> western Allies (Britain, really) give the
> Soviets any radar equipment to use in
> air defenses? Or any technical advice
> on building their own? _Did_ the Soviets
> build any radars of their own?
Radar was at an early stage of development during much
of WWII. At the beginning of the war, Great Britain had
radar along its south-east coast. Not just developed,
but actually deployed. This radar was very important
to Great Britain during the 1940 air war with Germany.
The early warning was critical for fighters due to their
limited fuel capacity.
Pearl Harbor had radar in operation well before December,
1941. No one believed it, despite the evidence from Great
Britain. Very much a case of too many false warnings to
get anyone believe a real warning.
Considering the logistical problems, I cannot imagine how
radar could have been deployed, tested and made operational
in time for the winter of 1941/42.
GFH
Don Phillipson
news:74400da6-2746-4810...@21g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> Pearl Harbor had radar in operation well before December,
> 1941. No one believed it, despite the evidence from Great
> Britain. Very much a case of too many false warnings to
> get anyone believe a real warning.
Without suggested evidence, we have no reason to believe
events at Pearl Harbor were influenced by "too many false
warnings to get anyone believe a real warning." We know:
1. At least one radar unit at Pearl Harbor reported a flight
of aircraft approaching from the west at dawn. Local air traffic
control was expecting a flight of B-17 bombers from the
USA (i.e. from the east) and it appears the duty officer
identified the radar trace (Japanese bombers) as the
expected B-17s.
2. Despite a War Alert ordered in late November by
Washington (because of Japanese moves into French
Indochina) local commanders at Pearl Harbor did not
order an early-morning stand-to that Sunday morning
(and had not yet co-ordinated army and navy plans
in the event of an air raid.)
These facts were publicly reported in 1942. I recall
no mention of " too many false warnings" from US
radar units.
Alan
> 1. At least one radar unit at Pearl Harbor reported a flight
> of aircraft approaching from the west at dawn. Local air traffic
> control was expecting a flight of B-17 bombers from the
> USA (i.e. from the east) and it appears the duty officer
> identified the radar trace (Japanese bombers) as the
> expected B-17s.
The Japanese raid approached Pearl Harbor from nearly due north until
they deployed for their final approach*. The flight path from
California to Honolulu is from the north east. Not the difference of
180 degrees between east and west.
Alan
*Morison "History USN Ops in WWII" vol 3
bbrought
wrote:
> What about air defenses generally? In
> particular, what about _radar_? Did the
> western Allies (Britain, really) give the
> Soviets any radar equipment to use in
> air defenses? Or any technical advice
> on building their own? _Did_ the Soviets
> build any radars of their own?
Yes, the Soviets built their own and, in fact, the Soviets were quite
involved in early radar research.
This Wikipedia article has some background:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radar
In some books on Soviet air power, the use of ground based radar
systems is discussed. One example is in the book "Attack of the
Airacobras" by Dmitry Loza. It is sort of spread throughout book, but
the following paragraphs might be of interest:
"The first weeks of the use of the RUS-2 demonstrated its
capabilities. It could detect targets at a range of fifty to sixty
miles, and sometimes at eighty to ninety miles if the enemy aircraft
were flying at an altitude of 9,800 to 13,000 feet in a formation of
no fewer than six to ten aircraft. When the ceiling was 5,000 to 6,500
feet and enemy bombers went out on a mission following the lower edge
of the cloud base, the radar could detect the formation at a distance
of twenty-five to thirty-five miles from the front line.
Coincidentally, this is approximately the same distance from the front
line that the RUS-2 radar was located, in the opposite direction."
He discusses the location of the sets a bit more, and then a little
further down:
"9th Guards Fighter Division began to operate in the interests of
formations of 51st Army in the Crimean bridgehead on 10 November 1943
using the information provided by the RUS-2. The presence of the radar
set constantly monitoring the airspace permitted the command to
maintain modest forces for coverage - a group of from two to ten
aircraft, depending on the situation. To provide equivalent coverage
without use of the radar set would require one pair of fighters at a
rate of ten hours per day, or approximately 215 aircraft sorties.
Using information received from the RUS-2, on-call groups took off to
intercept the enemy and successfully conducted aerial engagements.
Experience showed that the presence of the radar apparatus in the
division yielded an economy of 50 percent in fuel and engine hours."
There is a lot more interesting info in that book, of which I cannot
copy down everything of course.
I have also seen similar info in a few other books in my collection,
both English and Russian text and mostly on the use of the RUS-2.
Later in the war the Soviets used airborne radars, apparently
installed in Pe-2 aircraft, but I cannot remember much more about that
without really digging through my sources. An internet search may be
able to provide more detail on that.
Geoffrey Sinclair
news:4ff34e83-5695-4875...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
> attacks on the USSR came up. As noted
> elsewhere this is an obscure area for westerners.
>
> One question occurred to me.
>
> The Germans made some raids on Soviet
> cities, especially Moscow, in 1941-42 (and
> perhaps later).
Yes, almost all in 1941 after the front stabilised at Smolensk.
> Once source I have mentions British air raid protection experts going to
> the USSR to assist the Soviets.
That sounds plausible given the RAF experience of 1940. It did happen.
> What about air defenses generally?
Poor, lack of fighters, AA guns (though Moscow and Leningrad had
strong gun defences), air raid shelters, radars and raid tracking systems.
Mainly visual observers.
> In particular, what about _radar_? Did the western Allies (Britain,
> reallyI
> give the Soviets any radar equipment to use in air defenses?
As others have pointed out the answer is yes.
> Or any technical advice on building their own?
If not the radar sets provided would have given good clues.
> _Did_ the Soviets build any radars of their own?
Yes, pre June 1941 they had the RUS-1 and RUS-2 sets, and sets were
deployed in the defence of Moscow and Leningrad, and possibly else
where.
Remember a Soviet scientist invented the cavity magnetron and published
a paper on it pre WWII.
In many respects WWII was the electronics war, and all country's
electronics industries were heavily stressed. However the Germans
and western allies at least were able to put radios in all tanks and
aircraft. The much smaller Soviet electronics industry could not.
So the Soviets had real difficulties in providing radar sets as well
as radar research.
See A radar history of World War II: technical and military imperatives
by Louis Brown, also
http://www.onairpower.org/docs/Soviet_Development_of_Radar_to_1945
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Rich Rostrom
wrote:
> See A radar history of World War II: technical and military imperatives
> by Louis Brown, also
> http://www.onairpower.org/docs/Soviet_Development_of_Radar_to_1945
Thanks very much for the response
and the pointers. This is a black
area for westerners.
Joe Osman
Also see:
Chapter 6 of "Radar Origins Worldwide: History of Its Evolution in 13
Nations Through World War II" By Raymond C. Watson, Jr., Trafford
Publishing, November, 2009, 420 pp., ISBN: 9781426921100,
http://www.trafford.com/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000133575.
Chernyak, V.S., et al., "Radar in the Soviet Union and Russia: A Brief
Historical Outline", IEEE AES Magazine, Vol. 19, Dec 2003, p. 8.
Kostenko, Alexei A., et al., "Development of the First Soviet Three-
Coordinate L-Band Pulsed Radar in Kharkov Before WWII," IEEE AP
Magazine, Vol. 43, June 2001, p. 31.
Erickson, John, "The air defense problem and the Soviet radar
programme 1934/35-1945," in _Radar Development to 1945_, Russell
Burns, ed., Peter Peregrinus Ltd., 1988.
Erickson, John, "Radio-location and the air defense problem: The
design and development of Soviet Radar," Social Studies of Science,
Vol. 2, p. 241, 1972.
Joe