First Night Rights?
Laura Blanchard
Angela Reid wrote:
> I've recently been asked by a friend (as a medievalist in training) to
> verify whether or not it is true that at some point in some place in the
> middle ages lords or kings were given the right to bed a newly wed woman
> before her spouse. Brundage doesn't mention anything about this, and I'm
> not sure where to look. Did this practice indeed exist (if so, where or
> when)?
Brundage's silence can be taken as a good clue. So far as most of us can
tell, it is best documented in Hollywood screenplays. Otherwise, there
doesn't seem to be much of it going on.
On that mythical day when a group of us have a large block of free time,
we plan to do a FAQ on "things folks believe about the Middle Ages that
just aren't so." Ius prima noctis [s.h.m. regulars will note that I've
finally got the spelling more or less correct] is high up on that list.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha/shm/
D. Spencer Hines
Nope.
You are still spelling it incorrectly. You don't seem to understand
elementary Latin grammar. Surely there is a decent Latin grammar book or
three in the University of Pennsylvania Library.
Hmmmm, Latin is of some use to a medievalist or Medieval Historian.
It is:
JUS [IUS] PRIMAE NOCTIS. [Latin]
[N.B. "Right of the first night." "Primae noctis" is in the genitive case.
"Prima nocta" would be the nominative case. The "J" or "I" in "JUS" or
"IUS" was probably pronounced as "Y" --- as it is in Modern German.
or
DROIT DU SEIGNEUR. [French]
[N.B. "Right of the lord."]
Many primitive societies have this or similar practices.
In Europe, the right appears to have been transmuted into a fee or tax paid
by the vassal to AVOID enforcement of the feudal right by his overlord.
It's quite incredible that we've been discussing this matter for quite some
time now --- well over a year --- and people can't even spell the ruddy
phrase correctly.
No wonder we have trouble attracting really competent and knowledgeable
folks to SHM. They see the very low level of discourse that so often
prevails here --- punctuated by infrequent bursts of brilliance.
D. Spencer Hines
Exitus acta probat
Quod erat demonstrandum.
--
D. Spencer Hines --- Parentibus Caris Pius Filius
Laura Blanchard wrote in message <354695...@pobox.upenn.edu>...
Angela Reid
I've recently been asked by a friend (as a medievalist in training) to
verify whether or not it is true that at some point in some place in the
middle ages lords or kings were given the right to bed a newly wed woman
before her spouse. Brundage doesn't mention anything about this, and I'm
not sure where to look. Did this practice indeed exist (if so, where or
when)?
Any assistance would be appreciated.
Angela
John M. Atkinson
abr...@email.unc.edu (Angela Reid) wrote:
>I've recently been asked by a friend (as a medievalist in training) to
>verify whether or not it is true that at some point in some place in the
>middle ages lords or kings were given the right to bed a newly wed woman
>before her spouse. Brundage doesn't mention anything about this, and I'm
>not sure where to look. Did this practice indeed exist (if so, where or
>when)?
Ahhhhh. . . ..
<runs screaming>
Tell your friend to stop watching Braveheart for history. It's a
Victorian invention.
John M. Atkinson
Cogito Ergo BOOM!
--Button purchased at a Con
youallmustbe@ignorantcretins
Don't you READ everything you read? For those of you who are slow, out
there, I will-
<re-post>
no, No, NO!!! Everybody knows that wasn't really the way things
happened. The drop dead gorgeous and painfully overworked, yet
generous-spirited fourteen year old girl is supposed to be ravaged by
the childless, despotic overlord with a very religious wife on the day
before, or preferably the day of, her wedding, despoiling her for her
soon-to-be husband, who would always change his mind because then she
was sullied goods, and she would go on to have her illegitimate child
in the warm, cozy home of the strange old woman who lived in the
nearby forest, or in the case there was no forest nearby, she'd go to
the nearby major village to support herself as a tavern wench and
resort to prostitution when the unfair tavern proprietor kicked her
out, in either case dying promptly after the baby was born, when the
poor ex-fiance would repent, kill the evil lord, and raise the child
to be a great and noble lord of the manor as the religious wife of the
evil lord had no children and went to a convent and the bastard could
be his only heir. HUMPF!!!
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <6i67ko$c...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "D. Spencer Hines"
<shi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Many primitive societies have this or similar practices.
Citation?
>
> In Europe, the right appears to have been transmuted into a fee or tax paid
> by the vassal to AVOID enforcement of the feudal right by his overlord.
Citation--specifically for the origin of the "fee"?
Jgissw
>From: Laura Blanchard <lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu>
>Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:51:38 -0400
> Ius prima noctis [s.h.m. regulars will note that I've
>finally got the spelling more or less correct]
Couldn't prove it by me. I not only probably
know less about the MA than most of you, but I'm
grieve some that English is essentially my only
language. Still I try to
express myself gracefully in that one. I hesitate
to mention the Bard, for fear someone may say,
"You're no Will Shakespeare," but it never hurts to
look to good examples, and, after all, any two people
will have some things in common. Indeed, as I remarked
in email, Hines' posts sometimes make me think of Ben
Jonson's assessment of Shakespeare.
Cheers
John GW
Paul J. Gans
Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
Someone opined...
>> Many primitive societies have this or similar practices.
>Citation?
>>
>> In Europe, the right appears to have been transmuted into a fee or tax paid
>> by the vassal to AVOID enforcement of the feudal right by his overlord.
>Citation--specifically for the origin of the "fee"?
And we need a citation that the "right of first night" was
ever practiced anywhere by any human group.
As others have pointed out, this was a late invention. IN
spite of some serious searches of the available sources,
nobody has ever found any credible evidence for such a
practice. Further, there are some very serious theologjical
difficulties with such a practice and there is no doubt
that it would have been mentioned in manuals of pennance
had it been practiced.
----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Todd A. Farmerie
I have seen it stated that the King of Tonga had the right/duty of
deflowering all virgins on the island, but this isn't exactly the same
thing (nor is it medieval).
taf
Robert
I am only a humble illiteratus, but I think there is good ground for
spelling it :
IUS PRIME NOCTIS
For, in my travails, I have noted that the genitive singular of the first
declension dropped the A in medieval latin.
Marcabru
D. Spencer Hines wrote in message <6i67ko$c...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>Nope.
>
>You are still spelling it incorrectly. You don't seem to understand
>elementary Latin grammar. Surely there is a decent Latin grammar book or
>three in the University of Pennsylvania Library.
>
>Hmmmm, Latin is of some use to a medievalist or Medieval Historian.
>
>It is:
>
>JUS [IUS] PRIMAE NOCTIS. [Latin]
>
>[N.B. "Right of the first night." "Primae noctis" is in the genitive
case.
>"Prima nocta" would be the nominative case. The "J" or "I" in "JUS" or
>"IUS" was probably pronounced as "Y" --- as it is in Modern German.
>
>or
>
>DROIT DU SEIGNEUR. [French]
>
>[N.B. "Right of the lord."]
>
>Many primitive societies have this or similar practices.
>
>In Europe, the right appears to have been transmuted into a fee or tax paid
>by the vassal to AVOID enforcement of the feudal right by his overlord.
>
>It's quite incredible that we've been discussing this matter for quite some
>time now --- well over a year --- and people can't even spell the ruddy
>phrase correctly.
>
>No wonder we have trouble attracting really competent and knowledgeable
>folks to SHM. They see the very low level of discourse that so often
>prevails here --- punctuated by infrequent bursts of brilliance.
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Exitus acta probat
>Quod erat demonstrandum.
>--
>
>D. Spencer Hines --- Parentibus Caris Pius Filius
>
>Laura Blanchard wrote in message <354695...@pobox.upenn.edu>...
>>Angela Reid wrote:
>>
>>> I've recently been asked by a friend (as a medievalist in training) to
>>> verify whether or not it is true that at some point in some place in the
>>> middle ages lords or kings were given the right to bed a newly wed woman
>>> before her spouse. Brundage doesn't mention anything about this, and
I'm
>>> not sure where to look. Did this practice indeed exist (if so, where or
>>> when)?
>>
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
bj...@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
><shi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> In Europe, the right appears to have been transmuted into a fee or
>> tax paid by the vassal to AVOID enforcement of the feudal right by
>> his overlord.
>Citation--specifically for the origin of the "fee"?
The existance of the fee has some backing, you'll have to do a
dejanews search to find the citations.
I think the citation equally supports an alternative explanation
that the Lord taxed marriages and threatened to rape the bride if
the tax was not paid. And in good medieval fashion claimed it was
an ancient right.
Given the sparsity of documentation for this I think the alternative
explanation holds up better.
Robert
JudyW1917
>
>[N.B. "Right of the first night." "Primae noctis" is in the genitive case.
>"Prima nocta" would be the nominative case. The "J" or "I" in "JUS" or
>"IUS" was probably pronounced as "Y" --- as it is in Modern German.
>
>
The correct Latin spelling is IUS -- the letter J does not exist in the
Roman/Latin
Alphabet. The J creeps in to the alphabet in Medieval times -- Medieval
Latin is pretty corrupted for the most part.
Judy
JudyW1917
In article <6i7u1f$5jq$1...@heliodor.xara.net>, "Robert" <Saint-...@usa.net>
writes:
>
>For, in my travails, I have noted that the genitive singular of the first
>declension dropped the A in medieval latin.
>
>
But Medieval Latin is noted for its spelling and grammatical errors!
Judy
Laura Blanchard
Robert wrote:
>
> I am only a humble illiteratus, but I think there is good ground for
> spelling it :
>
> IUS PRIME NOCTIS
I think I'm going to start studying that other interesting wedding
custom, the ius primae donnae. You know: the inalienable right of every
bride to be utterly self-absorbed, demanding, and a trial to family and
friends on her wedding day...
Folks, I *really* do know how to spell ius priame notcis, isu pramie
noctsi, etc.; my fingers just won't cooperate for some reason and my
proofreading skills are generally used up by the end of the day.
More interesting to me is the apparent fact, according to several
posters here, that the only references to the alleged right during the
middle ages in western Europe are those where the lord claims to be
entitled to money and the best cuts of the swine or else he'll deflower
the bride.
Brian Scott did the homework on this one a couple months ago, and it can
be found on Dejanews under the heading "Re: rape in history" in the
soc.history.medieval archives and dated February 4, 1998. The commentary
of many posters to this newsgroup over the years, coupled with
Brundage's silence on the issue, continue to suggest that ius primae
noctis happens more often in Hollywood that in medieval western Europe.
And that, until someone shows up with a citation, there's no evidence
that the institutionalized extortion cited in the posting mentioned
above is any kind of mutation of an actual, practiced "right."
Paul J. Gans
Todd A. Farmerie (ta...@po.cwru.edu) wrote:
>Paul J. Gans wrote:
>>
>> Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
>>
>> Someone opined...
>>
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> In Europe, the right appears to have been transmuted into a fee or tax paid
>> >> by the vassal to AVOID enforcement of the feudal right by his overlord.
>>
>> >Citation--specifically for the origin of the "fee"?
>>
>> ever practiced anywhere by any human group.
>>
>> As others have pointed out, this was a late invention. IN
>> spite of some serious searches of the available sources,
>> nobody has ever found any credible evidence for such a
>> practice. Further, there are some very serious theologjical
>> difficulties with such a practice and there is no doubt
>> that it would have been mentioned in manuals of pennance
>> had it been practiced.
>I have seen it stated that the King of Tonga had the right/duty of
>deflowering all virgins on the island, but this isn't exactly the same
>thing (nor is it medieval).
Good for him. He was perhaps very busy or, perhaps,
they never found any virgins for him to deflower? ;-)
Laura Blanchard
JudyW1917 wrote:
>
> The correct Latin spelling is IUS -- the letter J does not exist in the
> Roman/Latin
> Alphabet. The J creeps in to the alphabet in Medieval times -- Medieval
> Latin is pretty corrupted for the most part.
Enhanced, Judy, enhanced. That J isn't a bug -- it's a feature. Still,
it's nice to know that I was at least using the Approved Spelling for
one word of that wretched alleged right.
Brian M. Scott
Only by those who think that any deviation from Classical models is
ipso facto error. Medieval Latin is simply a somewhat different
language.
Brian M. Scott
Laura Blanchard
For anyone wanting to chase down references in French (that would be you
Judy?), here's one on ius primae noctis, fished off DejaNews and brought
to us by Pedro de Brito <pedrod...@mail.telepac.pt> just two short
weeks ago. How quickly we forget..
>
> 7.>Jus primae noctis<, >droit du seigneur<, >droit de cuissage<, is indeed
> another myth. For those interested to know more about this I recommend the
> scholarly work of Alain Boureau >Le droit de cuissage - La fabrication d'un
> mythe - XIII / XX siecle<, Paris (Albin Michel), 1995.
>
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha/shm/
David Friedman
As best I recall previous threads on this topic:
1. It clearly was not normal practice during the Middle Ages--as
demonstrated by its (I think complete) absence from medieval literature,
as well as other evidence.
2. Someone cited one primary source document that implied that the right
did exist at some time and place in medieval europe; it was not clear
whether it was exercised or commuted for a fixed fee.
3. It does, however, appear in the Gilgamesh Epic, which predates both the
Victorian and the Medieval period.
--
David Friedman
DD...@Best.com
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/
"No man is secure in his life, liberty or property
while the legislature is in session"
Wayne B. Hewitt
"Sire, the Parade of The Virgins must be called off!
One is sick and the other refuses to march alone!"
--
_B_a_r_b_a_r_o_s_s_a_ ;^{>
Encinitas, California
X-Face by "Saving Face" <http://www.santafe.edu/~smfr/utils.html>
gmoreau
le Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:41:41 -1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<shi...@worldnet.att.net> a écrit:
>
>DROIT DU SEIGNEUR. [French]
>
No it is called Droit de cuissage
Right of thighing ?
>In Europe, the right appears to have been transmuted into a fee or tax paid
>by the vassal to AVOID enforcement of the feudal right by his overlord.
>
No. It is only a tax on the marriages of the serfs.
C. Schmidt, der Streit über das jus primae noctis, in Zeitschrift für
Ethnologie, t.XVI, 1884 cited in J. Heers, Le Moyen Age, une
imposture, Perrin, 1992.
In this book the author also lists some fantasy rights that specially
in France republican historians have made up in the 19th century for
ideollogical reasons. Here are some funny ones :
Droit de ravage (right of devastation) : when a lord was unhappy about
a peasant he could send his dogs and horses in the peasant's field to
destroy everything so, of course, the poor peasant would starve to
death.
Droit de prélassement (right of lolling): back from hunting in cold
winters, the lord has the right to rip one or two of his serves to
heat his feet into their hot entrails. !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hopefully the glorious revolution abolished all these on august the
4th 1789...
Could make some good movies though! :-)
David N. Stapleton
Judy wrote:
>The correct Latin spelling is IUS -- the letter J does not exist in the
>Roman/Latin Alphabet. The J creeps in to the alphabet in Medieval times --
>Medieval Latin is pretty corrupted for the most part.
Since the supposed law is a alleged to be a medieval custom, it would seem
to me that it would be apropiate to use medieval latin, including the odd
letters that crept in.
On a larger issue, I don't think that one should call Medieval Latin
corrupted, unless one is also willing to accuse modern English of being a
corrupted version the pristine English language of Beowulf. Languages
evolve. Medieval Latin is not Classical Latin just as Classical Latin is
not Archaic Latin.
David Stapleton
Laura Blanchard
David Friedman wrote:
[snip of points 1 and 2 re ius primae noctis]
> 3. It does, however, appear in the Gilgamesh Epic, which predates both the
> Victorian and the Medieval period.
David, I'm a little pressed for time this week and can't go dig up
Gilgamesh for myself. I'm sure others in the group would be interested
as well. So I'm wondering: could you tell us a little more about this,
possibly even quoting the relevant passage? I know you've mentioned it
before, and you also mentioned, if memory serves, that it was viewed as
being not quite right.
JudyW1917
In article <6i8ue9$n65$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
david_s...@mail.utexas.edu (David N. Stapleton) writes:
>
>On a larger issue, I don't think that one should call Medieval Latin
>corrupted, unless one is also willing to accuse modern English of being a
>corrupted version the pristine English language of Beowulf. Languages
>evolve. Medieval Latin is not Classical Latin just as Classical Latin is
>not Archaic Latin.
It is corrupted when you realize that the people were trying to and throught
they
were writing classical Latin.
Judy
JudyW1917
In article <3547bdf6...@news.csuohio.edu>, sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian
M. Scott) writes:
>
>Only by those who think that any deviation from Classical models is
>ipso facto error. Medieval Latin is simply a somewhat different
>language.
But those Medieval people thought they that they were writing classical Latin.
That at least is what they were trying to do.
Judy
Gareth
gOn 29 Apr 1998, JudyW1917 wrote:
> In article <6i7u1f$5jq$1...@heliodor.xara.net>, "Robert" <Saint-...@usa.net>
> writes:
>
> >
> >For, in my travails, I have noted that the genitive singular of the first
> >declension dropped the A in medieval latin.
> >
> >
>
> But Medieval Latin is noted for its spelling and grammatical errors!
>
But the term in question is one which is used in a medieval context - so
what's wrong with medieval spelling ?
____ ____
{ }------------------------------------------------{ }
{ }Gareth Marklew, G.J.M...@durham.ac.uk { }
{ } { }
{ } http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d511kx/ { }
{____}------------------------------------------------{____}
jr...@yahoo.com
In article <199804301229...@ladder01.news.aol.com>#1/1,
Not always. The English common law developed a number of concepts that Latin
didn't have any equivalent for. Thus they had to develop new words to express
these new concepts. As a result, the language had to change. (See Cockburn,
_History of English Assizes_)
Joe Rooney
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Alan Allport
> David, I'm a little pressed for time this week and can't go dig up
> Gilgamesh for myself. I'm sure others in the group would be interested
> as well. So I'm wondering: could you tell us a little more about this,
> possibly even quoting the relevant passage? I know you've mentioned it
> before, and you also mentioned, if memory serves, that it was viewed as
> being not quite right.
<Disclaimer: Not trying to steal David's thunder or anything, but the
Gilgamesh connection did occur to me as well when this thread began).
From Tablet 1, Column II of the Sin-Leqi-Unninni Version, translated by
John H. Gardner and John Maier (and found in its full form at
http://www.akkad.com/):
"Gilgamesh does not allow the son to go with his father; day and night he
opresses the weak- Gilgamesh, who is shepherd of Uruk of the Sheepfold. Is
this our sheperd, strong, shining, full of thought? Gilgamesh does not let
the young women go to her mother, the girl to the warrior, the bride to
the young groom."
It is for this reason that the people of Uruk ('Erech' in the Old
Testament) seek the reluctant help of the wild-man Enkidu, whose primitive
half-bestial innocence is taken from him (with the aid of an enthusiastic
temple prostitute) and who fights and ultimately befriends Gilgamesh.
Alan.
David N. Stapleton
>It (Medieval Latin DNS) is corrupted when you realize that the people were
>trying to and throught they were writing classical Latin.
I'm not so sure of this. The major models for medieval latin was quite
consciously not written in a classical style, i.e. The Vulgate, and the
Church Fathers. At least some authors (John of Salisbury) were aware of the
differences between Medieval and Classical Latin, and were aware of how they
varied from the classical.
Medieval Latin is not merely marked by spelling and grammatical "errors".
If this were the case, there would be no point in talking about Medieval
Latin at all, one could just note an individual author's errors and move on.
Many of the changes in Latin were driven by pronunciation. There were
consistent changes in orthography not "spelling errors" Likewise, the
changes in grammar followed patterns.
Another pattern of the evolution of Latin was the addition of and
modification of vocabulary. Late Imperial writers, writing in a classical
style often had to resort to strange and anachronistic expressions, since
the dictates of style did not allow them to use words that did not appear in
the classical authors. Since the Emperor himself might have a nme which was
not Classical, this could cause problems. It is probally a sign of a
healthier language that calls Goths, Goths, rather than Scythians.
David Stapleton
Laura Blanchard
Alan Allport wrote:
> From Tablet 1, Column II of the Sin-Leqi-Unninni Version, translated by
> John H. Gardner and John Maier (and found in its full form at
> http://www.akkad.com/):
>
> "Gilgamesh does not allow the son to go with his father; day and night he
> opresses the weak- Gilgamesh, who is shepherd of Uruk of the Sheepfold. Is
> this our sheperd, strong, shining, full of thought? Gilgamesh does not let
> the young women go to her mother, the girl to the warrior, the bride to
> the young groom."
Many thanks, Alan. If this is the entire reference, it sounds more like
generalized oppression than an acknowledged right.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
Alan Allport
In article <35489C...@pobox.upenn.edu>, lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu wrote:
> Alan Allport wrote:
> > "Gilgamesh does not allow the son to go with his father; day and night he
> > opresses the weak- Gilgamesh, who is shepherd of Uruk of the Sheepfold. Is
> > this our sheperd, strong, shining, full of thought? Gilgamesh does not let
> > the young women go to her mother, the girl to the warrior, the bride to
> > the young groom."
>
> Many thanks, Alan. If this is the entire reference, it sounds more like
> generalized oppression than an acknowledged right.
The indictment is actually pronounced twice in the text, but (as is the
case in a lot of Sumerian/Akkadian literature) there are only minor
literary embellishments in the second version - the specific charges
remain the same. Gilgamesh's praises are sung throughout the preamble to
the Epic and his particular claim to fame - the construction of the
copper-gilded walls of Uruk - are singled out for special note. That such
a notable leader should be condemned for his actions vis. the young
grooms' brides suggests that this behaviour is by no means justifiable
under ancient rite.
Alan.
Paul J. Gans
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:
>bj...@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
>><shi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>> In Europe, the right appears to have been transmuted into a fee or
>>> tax paid by the vassal to AVOID enforcement of the feudal right by
>>> his overlord.
>>Citation--specifically for the origin of the "fee"?
>The existance of the fee has some backing, you'll have to do a
>dejanews search to find the citations.
>I think the citation equally supports an alternative explanation
>that the Lord taxed marriages and threatened to rape the bride if
>the tax was not paid. And in good medieval fashion claimed it was
>an ancient right.
>Given the sparsity of documentation for this I think the alternative
>explanation holds up better.
I'm not sure. The situation was a bit more complex.
First, as to the marriage of one's vassals, one *always*
had a say. We aren't talking about love here, we are
talking about political alliance. Marriages were
arranged for political reasons. If the Duke of Whatever
approached the King about marrying the Count of Whence's
daughter, the King was NOT about to demand to rape said
daughter.
Similarly with the Duke of Whatever's vassals. If one
of them wanted to marry his daughter to the Earl of Grief's
eldest son, and the Earl was the Duke's mortal enemy...
Relief was generally paid by one's vassals on the impending
marriage of one's child. I don't believe it was paid by
the parents of the intended to their overlords, though
some payment might have been customary in some areas. I
simply don't know.
As far as the peasants were concerned, their lord generally
did not care *unless* it affected his household or the
farming of his land. In such cases his permission would
have to be obtained and a fine might have to be paid.
Lastly, let me stress that custom and law varied greatly
from place to place and from time to time. Even something
as simple-seeming as dower rights varied greatly from
place to place and time to time. My major reading has
been on England.
------ Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Ellen Pinegar
Alan Allport wrote:
<citing _Gilgamesh_ as evidence of the practice>
> Gilgamesh does not let
> the young women go to her mother, the girl to the warrior, the bride to
> the young groom."
>
Is this the extent of the description regarding this topc? I agree that it
sounds like Gilgamesh is exacting some sort of payment from someone, but its
not at all specific about what the payment is to be. Are there any more
details?
Ellen Piengar
Alan Allport
In article <3548A7D4...@swbell.net>, Ellen Pinegar
<pine...@swbell.net> wrote:
No, this is the only section of the Epic in which the question of
Gilgamesh's injustices towards the people of Uruk is discussed. It is
frustratingly vague, but that's part and parcel of Sumero-Akkadian textual
analysis unfortunately.
I have a couple of alternative translations at home which I seem to recall
make the more explicit case that Gilgamesh is demanding sexual favours
from the daughters of Uruk ie. it is not simply a question of a
'bride-price' or extortion.
But as I've mentioned in a previous message there's every reason to assume
from the text that this behaviour was considered thoroughly reprehensible.
Alan.
--
*******************************************
Alan Allport
http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~allport/index.html
*******************************************
D. Spencer Hines
Vide infra pro risibus. Particularly the last paragraph. Here it is up
front:
>Lastly, let me stress that custom and law varied greatly
>from place to place and from time to time. Even something
>as simple-seeming as dower rights varied greatly from
>place to place and time to time. My major reading has
>been on England.
>
> ------ Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
>
Therefore the entire, warbling, wandering, discursive post above this
paragraph quoted, supra, is of no account.
The little old schlockmeister loves to string and dangle one of these little
dandies every now and then. Please note that it contains not a single date
nor the name of even a single historical figure, who lived in the Middle
Ages.
We are treated to cerebral peregrinations about the "Duke of Whatever" the
"Count of Whence" and the "Earl of Grief."
This is what we mean by Junior-High School level trivia and persiflage.
He pretends to be talking about actual events, laws, dower rights and
customs ---- abstracted from a large body of reading. He is actually,
'ahem', "away from his books" again.
But, in the end, he admits that his reading actually has been principally
confined to England.
Chuck out the entire post electronically or print it and use it as a fish
wrap or a bird cage liner.
It is certainly not Medieval History of any sort or stripe.
But then the East River Pontificator [ERP] has told us he does not teach
History at NYU, hasn't he?
D. Spencer Hines
Fortem Posce Animum
Exitus acta probat.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
--
D. Spencer Hines --- Parentibus Caris Pius Filius
Paul J. Gans wrote in message <6ia93l$n...@panix2.panix.com>...
Laura Blanchard
I inadvertently replied to Alan instead of the whole group, but I did
want to observe yet again that this passage from Gilgamesh refers to a
whole range of oppressions -- of young boys as well as girls and women
-- and that brides from their grooms is only one of four complaints.
Perhaps scholars of this period can assign this as an early instance of
"ius primae noctis," but it certainly isn't clear to me.
D. Spencer Hines
1. Blanchard is correct. This [translated] passage from Gilgamesh
certainly does not "prove" the institution of *jus primae noctis.*
2. Hines has previously pointed out that the institution should be searched
for in the anthropological sources. *Jus primae noctis* could possibly have
been a prehistoric custom of certain "primitive" cultures. The Tongan
culture has been mentioned. Tongans are fine, large, friendly and handsome
people --- both the women and the men. I have Tongan friends and
colleagues. I'll ask them about this.
3. In Europe, if it did exist, we should not expect to find historical
records for it as the practice may have been quite early, even
Pre-Christian. France and Italy have been mentioned as possible locations
for these early practices.
4. Again, the most lucrative sources may turn out to be Anthropological
rather than Historical.
D. Spencer Hines
Fortem Posce Animum.
--
D. Spencer Hines --- Parentibus Caris Pius Filius
Laura Blanchard wrote in message <3548B2...@pobox.upenn.edu>...
Jgissw
>From: Laura Blanchard <lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu>
>Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:12:05 -0400
>And that, until someone shows up with a citation, there's no evidence
>that the institutionalized extortion cited in the posting mentioned
>above is any kind of mutation of an actual, practiced "right."
>
>
I've been wondering if >And that, until someone shows up with a
citation, there's no evidence
>that the institutionalized extortion cited in the posting mentioned
>above is any kind of mutation of an actual, practiced "right."
>
>
I've been wondering, if merchet was a fee paid for the yielding of this '
right', if there was a tax on the sale of livestock, and, if so, what it
represented a transmutation of. So, hunting for scandal, I find the the
Gies's remark that the amount of merchet might vary, depending on the value of
the dowry. Consequently, they conclude it was an inheritance tax, like
heriot. Guess Gies is a tertiary source, or so.
cheers
John GW
Alan Allport
> I inadvertently replied to Alan instead of the whole group, but I did
> want to observe yet again that this passage from Gilgamesh refers to a
> whole range of oppressions -- of young boys as well as girls and women
> -- and that brides from their grooms is only one of four complaints.
> Perhaps scholars of this period can assign this as an early instance of
> "ius primae noctis," but it certainly isn't clear to me.
One other point. Gilgamesh is a legendary Mesopotamian figure (a real Uruk
Monarch of that name may have existed in the earliest period of the
City-State's life, according to the famous Sumerian 'King List', but other
evidence of his reign is entirely lacking) and many fantastic traits and
behaviours are ascribed to him. Even if the text -is- suggesting that he
maintained a Right of the First Night by law of precedent, which I don't
think is the case, there's no reason to think that Sumero-Akkadians of the
identifiably historical period (say from c.3000BC onwards) would share
this law. I don't recall any other descriptions of this system in writings
of the period (although it's worth pointing out that most surviving
Sumerian texts are dully practical in nature anyway - happiness to them
was a well-balanced inventory list. Modern-day accountants subscribing to
the newsgroup will feel right at home among the People of the Delta).
Gilgamesh is an interesting test-case in his own right but insofar as
you're trying to establish any real First Night traditions, he's probably
a red herring.
Alan.
David C. Pugh
David N. Stapleton wrote in message
(snip)
>Another pattern of the evolution of Latin was the addition of and
>modification of vocabulary. Late Imperial writers, writing in a classical
>style often had to resort to strange and anachronistic expressions, since
>the dictates of style did not allow them to use words that did not appear
in
>the classical authors. Since the Emperor himself might have a nme which
was
>not Classical, this could cause problems. It is probally a sign of a
>healthier language that calls Goths, Goths, rather than Scythians.
>
I am given to understand that this was precisely what did _not_ happen in
Byzantine Greek, where to general obfuscation one continued to call the
Cumans etc. Scyths, and everyone in points west the Celts. Right?
David
Marcabru
Have I missed something? I thought we were talking about a fictitious
medieval rite. Where does classical latin come into this, unless this
anachronism thang is catching.
Marcabru
JudyW1917 wrote in message
<199804292147...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>In article <6i67ko$c...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "D. Spencer Hines"
><shi...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>>
>>[N.B. "Right of the first night." "Primae noctis" is in the genitive
case.
>>"Prima nocta" would be the nominative case. The "J" or "I" in "JUS" or
>>"IUS" was probably pronounced as "Y" --- as it is in Modern German.
>>
>>
>
>The correct Latin spelling is IUS -- the letter J does not exist in the
>Roman/Latin
>Alphabet. The J creeps in to the alphabet in Medieval times -- Medieval
>Latin is pretty corrupted for the most part.
>
> Judy
>
>
>
>
Velovich
>
>Alan Allport wrote:
>
><citing _Gilgamesh_ as evidence of the practice>
>
>> Gilgamesh does not let
>> the young women go to her mother, the girl to the warrior, the bride to
>> the young groom."
>>
>
>Is this the extent of the description regarding this topc? I agree that it
>sounds like Gilgamesh is exacting some sort of payment from someone, but its
>not at all specific about what the payment is to be. Are there any more
>details?
From the Penguin Classics edition:
"But the men of Uruk muttered in their houses, "... his lust leaves no virgin
to her lover, niether the warrior's daughter or the wife of the noble; yet this
is the shepard of the city, wise comley and noble."
From my History of Western Civ professor, this is a clear indication that
Gilgamesh did indeed, but only to satisfy base lust, exercise rights of the
deflowering of virgins. The was no relief (in the epic) but to get Gilgamesh a
best friend to buddy around with.
Some take soem of the passages about Gilgamesh and Enkidu as homosexualty, go
figure...
"Shaka, When the walls fell!"
Velovich
"Who IS Keyser Souze?"
NOTICE TO BULK E-MAILERS: Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter
II, 227, and all nonsolicited commercial e-mail sent to this address is subject
to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US.
JudyW1917
>
>Not always. The English common law developed a number of concepts that Latin
>didn't have any equivalent for. Thus they had to develop new words to express
>these new concepts. As a result, the language had to change. (See Cockburn,
>_History of English Assizes_)
>
>
You can increase vocabulary of a language without changing the grammer.
Judy
JudyW1917
In article <6ia5eg$lnp$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
david_s...@mail.utexas.edu (David N. Stapleton) writes:
>
>Medieval Latin is not merely marked by spelling and grammatical "errors".
>If this were the case, there would be no point in talking about Medieval
>Latin at all, one could just note an individual author's errors and move on.
>
>Many of the changes in Latin were driven by pronunciation. There were
>consistent changes in orthography not "spelling errors" Likewise, the
>changes in grammar followed patterns.
>
>
There was also an educational issue -- in the early Middle Ages the better
educated the writer the closer to classical Latin the text would be. Just
adding
new words to a language does not lead to grammatical and spelling errors. which
eventually over time become accepted. For example, except for some new
vocabulary Einhard's is much closer to classical Latin than say the Carmina
Burana.
Classical Latin added new words to its vocabulary too. Just for example
you wont' find a lot of the words in Juvenal's Satires in Horace, Catullus etc.
Judy
McLean1382
Iudy wrote:
>> But Medieval Latin is noted for its spelling and grammatical errors!
As is guell known, the Romans invented ivst abovt everything worth having. The
fact that medieval gueriters of medieval latin invented stvff like the J,U, and
W was, by definition, a mistake. Letters like that covldn't possible make
anyone's life easier. Let's face it, the post-Roman medievals ivst didn't know
iack.
Gvill McLean
Brian M. Scott
On 30 Apr 1998 21:26:06 GMT, judy...@aol.com (JudyW1917) wrote:
>In article <6ia5eg$lnp$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
>david_s...@mail.utexas.edu (David N. Stapleton) writes:
>>Medieval Latin is not merely marked by spelling and grammatical "errors".
>>If this were the case, there would be no point in talking about Medieval
>>Latin at all, one could just note an individual author's errors and move on.
>>Many of the changes in Latin were driven by pronunciation. There were
>>consistent changes in orthography not "spelling errors" Likewise, the
>>changes in grammar followed patterns.
>There was also an educational issue -- in the early Middle Ages the better
>educated the writer the closer to classical Latin the text would be. Just
>adding
>new words to a language does not lead to grammatical and spelling errors. which
>eventually over time become accepted. For example, except for some new
>vocabulary Einhard's is much closer to classical Latin than say the Carmina
>Burana.
Well of course! The Carmina Burana is closer to actual speech.
Classical literary Latin was never very close to the spoken language.
And even in Classical Latin you will find foreshadowings of some of
the medieval changes, e.g., the increasing use of periphrastic
prepositional constructions at the expense of the pure cases.
Brian M. Scott
Brian M. Scott
>Iudy wrote:
Indeed; for hauing inuented the <v>, they often vsed it in what seems
to vs most vnnatural wise. As for <j> and <w>, behold the .xv.
century Swede <Amwndir j Landboby>!
Brian M. Scott
Maria Winter
for anything decent on the topic read Alain Boureau
John M. Atkinson
velo...@aol.com (Velovich) wrote:
> "Shaka, When the walls fell!"
ROTFLMAO
John M. Atkinson
Happy 50th to the State of Israel!
Alan Allport
In article <6ibadv$n...@panix2.panix.com>, ga...@panix.com (Paul J. Gans) wrote:
> I disclaim any expertise here, but it seems to me that the
> opressions listed are 1) the son is not allowed to go with
> the father, 2) the young woman is not allowed to go to her
> mother, 3) the girl is not allowed to go to the warrior, and
> 4) the bride is not allowed to go to the groom. Are these not
> a group indicating that the natural course of events is being
> forbidden? The things listed seem all to be the "natural"
> things that would happen -- children going to their parents,
> the women going to the warrior and the bride to the groom.
> There seems to me to be no compelling reason to think that
> there is anything other than a disruption of normal life
> (for whatever reason) going on.
At the risk of sounding like a scratched LP, I would say again that it
depends a lot on how the original is translated.
I have three versions of the Epic available to me. The first, and most
scholarly and literal, is by Gardner and Maier and relates the abuses in a
rather vague way:
"Gilgamesh does not allow the son to go with his father... Gilgamesh does
not let the young women go to her mother, the girl to the warrior, the
bride to the young groom."
The second and third, by David Ferry and N.K. Sanders respectively, must
be treated with some caution as the authors admit to knowing no cuneiform
(as do I: If anyone is sufficiently appalled by this shocking revelation
then I invite them to check on the primary sources themselves). Also,
their intent is consciously literary rather than historiographical.
Ferry has it that:
"Neither the father's son nor the wife of the noble is safe in Uruk;
neither the mother's daughter nor the warrior's bride is safe".
While Sanders puts it this way:
"No son is left for his father, for Gilgamesh takes them all, even the
children... his lust leaves no virgin to her lover, neither the warrior's
daughter, nor the wife of the noble".
As far as whether the original author(s) were describing sexual acts or
not (or simply 'disruption of normal life'), I bow to the opinion of Dr.
Samuel Kramer, the Grand Old Man of Sumerian Studies, who comments in his
book "From the Tablets of Sumer" in reference to this passage about
Gilgamesh's "Rabelaisian tastes". And while it's certainly true that there
are a whole series of outrages described, the specific reference to brides
suggests to me at least that the ravishing of virgins is a distinct
indictment.
However, there is plenty of evidence contained in the complaints by the
downtrodden people of Uruk (Ferry: "...is this the wise shepherd,
protector of the people?") that Gilgamesh's behaviour is -not-
justifiable. If he is exercising a sort of Right of First Night in his
City, it is by the power of brute force rather than adoption of ancient
privilege.
Also, as it can't be pointed out too many times, the behaviour of an
(almost entirely) mythical figure shouldn't necessarily be used as
evidence of custom or rite within the historical culture that produced
him.
Alan.
Jgissw
>From: judy...@aol.com (JudyW1917)
>Date: 30 Apr 1998 21:26:05 GMT
>You can increase vocabulary of a language without changing the grammer.
>
> Judy
Rather handy to have an international language, and this is wrecked if
every country starts making their own private changes to it.
That is, handy for Europeans. Of course, for Americans, since they have
the best language, English (Spanish) there is no point in learning any
other{8-) Actually, it is very hard to keep up on a language if you have
little opportunity to speak it. When Mrs. Marquez would talk to me, at 55, in
Spanish on the street, with trucks going by, I hadn't a clue what she said -
hard enough to hear in English.
Cheers
John
JudyW1917
In article <3549729e...@news.csuohio.edu>, sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian
M. Scott) writes:
>
>Well of course! The Carmina Burana is closer to actual speech.
>Classical literary Latin was never very close to the spoken language.
>And even in Classical Latin you will find foreshadowings of some of
>the medieval changes, e.g., the increasing use of periphrastic
>prepositional constructions at the expense of the pure cases.
>
>
If you read Apuleius you will come closer to vernacular Latin of the classical
period than the Carmina Burana. Vernacular Latin is not as corrupted and
deviant
from its classical origins as the Carmina Burana is from not only classical
origins
but also the Literary Latin of its day.
Judy
Paul J. Gans
Velovich (velo...@aol.com) wrote:
>>
>>Alan Allport wrote:
>>
>><citing _Gilgamesh_ as evidence of the practice>
>>
>>> the young women go to her mother, the girl to the warrior, the bride to
>>> the young groom."
>>>
>>
>>sounds like Gilgamesh is exacting some sort of payment from someone, but its
>>not at all specific about what the payment is to be. Are there any more
>>details?
>From the Penguin Classics edition:
> "But the men of Uruk muttered in their houses, "... his lust leaves no virgin
>to her lover, niether the warrior's daughter or the wife of the noble; yet this
>is the shepard of the city, wise comley and noble."
> From my History of Western Civ professor, this is a clear indication that
>Gilgamesh did indeed, but only to satisfy base lust, exercise rights of the
>deflowering of virgins. The was no relief (in the epic) but to get Gilgamesh a
>best friend to buddy around with.
> Some take soem of the passages about Gilgamesh and Enkidu as homosexualty, go
>figure...
> "Shaka, When the walls fell!"
I'm not sure that it illustrates the *right* to deflower
virgins. Your translation would indicate that he had the
*power* to do so. Folks don't normally complain about
normal rights.
----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Paul J. Gans
Alan Allport (all...@pender.ee.upenn.edu) wrote:
>In article <6ibadv$n...@panix2.panix.com>, ga...@panix.com (Paul J. Gans) wrote:
>> I disclaim any expertise here, but it seems to me that the
>> opressions listed are 1) the son is not allowed to go with
>> the father, 2) the young woman is not allowed to go to her
>> mother, 3) the girl is not allowed to go to the warrior, and
>> 4) the bride is not allowed to go to the groom. Are these not
>> a group indicating that the natural course of events is being
>> forbidden? The things listed seem all to be the "natural"
>> things that would happen -- children going to their parents,
>> the women going to the warrior and the bride to the groom.
>> There seems to me to be no compelling reason to think that
>> there is anything other than a disruption of normal life
>> (for whatever reason) going on.
>At the risk of sounding like a scratched LP, I would say again that it
>depends a lot on how the original is translated.
>I have three versions of the Epic available to me. The first, and most
>scholarly and literal, is by Gardner and Maier and relates the abuses in a
>rather vague way:
>"Gilgamesh does not allow the son to go with his father... Gilgamesh does
>not let the young women go to her mother, the girl to the warrior, the
>bride to the young groom."
>The second and third, by David Ferry and N.K. Sanders respectively, must
>Ferry has it that:
>Alan.
Well, as Samuel Noah Kramer was a personal friend of my folks
and a favorite of mine as well, I'll be happy to let him have
the last word.
Michael L. Siemon
In article <allport-0105...@m329mac1.ee.upenn.edu>,
all...@pender.ee.upenn.edu (Alan Allport) wrote:
+At the risk of sounding like a scratched LP, I would say again that it
+depends a lot on how the original is translated.
+
+I have three versions of the Epic available to me. The first, and most
+scholarly and literal, is by Gardner and Maier and relates the abuses in a
+rather vague way:
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, "The Epic of Gilgamesh" refers
in a rather vauge way to a whole corpus of texts, spanning some 2,000
years with a rather massive developement fantasized on the (possibly)
historical figure of Gilgamesh as king of Ur some (short) time after the
"Flood." There are accessible English studies of the development of this
corpus. If you aren't citing Sumerian narratives (and these are *never*
anywhere near the time period in question, as Sumerian narrative liter-
ature grew up in "Neo"-Sumerian times, *after* Sumerian cuneiform had
been vastly extended in resources by its adaptation to Akkadian Semitic),
you might as well forget it.
I strongly suspect that any English translation you find will be (at
best) a translation of a late (maybe even 1st millennium BCE) Akkadian
text, and at worst a pastiche of this with any number of earlier texts,
without any indication of what comes from where or when.
It is rather (pardon the analogy) like taking the recent Merlin on TV
as a source for the historical context of Arthur -- except that the very
*earliest* actual texts on Gilgamesh are nearer to *our* remove from
Arthur, not Chretien's or Geoffrey's or whomever's.
PLEASE consider historiography and some degree of critical method if you
are going to introduce this kind of stuff, OK?
--
Michael L. Siemon m...@panix.com
"Green is the night, green kindled and apparelled.
It is she that walks among astronomers."
-- Wallace Stevens
Paul J. Gans
JudyW1917 (judy...@aol.com) wrote:
>In article <6ia7s6$q9p$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jr...@yahoo.com writes:
>>
>>Not always. The English common law developed a number of concepts that Latin
>>didn't have any equivalent for. Thus they had to develop new words to express
>>these new concepts. As a result, the language had to change. (See Cockburn,
>>_History of English Assizes_)
>>
>>
>You can increase vocabulary of a language without changing the grammer.
Yes. But Latin was a living language during the Middle
Ages, and like every written language, it evolved. Saying
that the medievals did not write "classical" Latin is
of course true and in no way strange.
Alan Allport
Michael L. Siemon wrote:
>
> PLEASE consider historiography and some degree of critical method if you
> are going to introduce this kind of stuff, OK?
Calm down for a moment, will you! I am well aware of the fact that, yes,
the Gilgamesh Epic as we usually think of it today is really a compound
of a whole series of stories and traditions from different periods of
Mesopotamian history. But I also I think made it clear that (a) the Epic
is a literary fantasy and not -necessarily- reflective of authentic
cultural mores, and that (b) I am not pretending to make a comprehensive
or original contribution to Sumerian/Akkadian studies. All I wanted to
expand upon was a comment made about Gilgamesh's supposed lustful
injustices in Uruk, drawing upon some the orthodox scholarship I am
personally aware of.
If you have some more enlightening thoughts on the subject then I am
happy to bow to your greater knowledge, but try to do so without
throwing a wobbly, will you?
Alan.
Brian M. Scott
On 1 May 1998 18:00:46 GMT, judy...@aol.com (JudyW1917) wrote:
>In article <3549729e...@news.csuohio.edu>, sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian
>M. Scott) writes:
>>Well of course! The Carmina Burana is closer to actual speech.
>>Classical literary Latin was never very close to the spoken language.
>>And even in Classical Latin you will find foreshadowings of some of
>>the medieval changes, e.g., the increasing use of periphrastic
>>prepositional constructions at the expense of the pure cases.
>If you read Apuleius you will come closer to vernacular Latin of the classical
>period than the Carmina Burana.
So? What has the Classical vernacular to do with it? In any case, we
simply don't have very clear evidence for the actual nature of the
Classical vernacular(s), and the grand stylist Apuleius, whose tone in
'Metamorphoses' has been described as one of 'a highly ornamented
artificiality', is hardly an example of vernacular writing.
> Vernacular Latin is not as corrupted and
>deviant
>from its classical origins as the Carmina Burana is from not only classical
>origins
>but also the Literary Latin of its day.
You have it exactly backward. Vernacular Latin *is* the language of
its day; Classical literary Latin is a largely artificial language
derived partly from it and partly from Greek models.
Brian M. Scott
Joseph Askew
David Friedman (DD...@best.com) wrote:
: The men of Uruk fume in their chambers ...
: "Yet Gilgamesh is the shepherd of Uruk, the enclosures
: He is our shepherd, strong, handsome, and wise.
: Gilgamesh leaves no virgin to her lover,
: the daughter of a warrior, the chosen of a noble!"
: Their lament the gods heard over and over again.
: It doesn't specify anything about marriage, but seems to be saying that he
: takes all of the maidenheads. I don't remember if there are further quotes
: or not; this is near the beginning, and is part of the people's complaint
: against Gilgamesh.
It also doesn't seem to be saying anything about legal rights. Just
that Gilgamesh was a man among men, the studliest stud muffin of
them all. Boasts that a particular man left no virgin untouched
are common. In fact I think I remember Julius Caesar's soldiers
making a wider claim for JC. I don't see that it implies anything
other than a very obvious ideal for a man to be. Notice it seems
to be the *men* who are fuming and lamenting.
I also notice that the only example mentioned is Tonga. A country
far away few of us have visited. I know that Margaret Mead missed
the locals custom of raising a ceremonial virgin who was publically
deflowered on reaching a certain date. But I don't see that it says
much about all the other girls.
Joseph
--
Of the common run of Shan-hsi men it is hard to say much good. They are
mean and cunning, and though by relentlessly skinning fleas for the hide
and tallow they often become wealthy, they remain to the end ignorant
and narrow. [...] For these reasons they have often been involved in
comparison with the Jews, which is a little hard on them perhaps.
-- Owen Lattimore _High Tartary_
JudyW1917
In article <354a82f3...@news.csuohio.edu>, sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian
M. Scott) writes:
>
>So? What has the Classical vernacular to do with it? In any case, we
>simply don't have very clear evidence for the actual nature of the
>Classical vernacular(s), and the grand stylist Apuleius, whose tone in
>'Metamorphoses' has been described as one of 'a highly ornamented
>artificiality', is hardly an example of vernacular writing.
>
>
I disagree I think that it is possible to gain some idea of what the everyday
speech of the people where. I think that Apuleius can give us a feel for the
"average" man's speech. No we don't have the gutter Latin but we do have good
examples so that it is possible to have a good idea how an educated Roman
spoke.
>>Classical literary Latin is a largely artificial language derived partly from
it and >>partly from Greek models.
Certainly writers like Virgil imitated Homer in their subject matter, but their
use
of the Language is uniquely their own and uniquely Roman.
Judy
JudyW1917
>
>Yes. But Latin was a living language during the Middle
>Ages, and like every written language, it evolved. Saying
>that the medievals did not write "classical" Latin is
>of course true and in no way strange.
>
> ------ Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
>
>
But when a language evolves -- new words enter in -- but the radical grammar
changes that happen in early Medieval Latin can note be described by the
word evolution. For example the Latin of Cicero or Livy is very different from
that
of Tacitus or Suetonius -- but the grammer is constant. The 4 writers mentioned
used the abalative case correctly, they didn't have errors in their verbs --
all of which happened in Medieval Latin. To me this is indicative of the
cultural
breakdown which occurred in many areas during the transition from the Late
Empire to the Middle ages.
Judy
Jgissw
>From: jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
>Date: 2 May 1998 07:28:28 GMT
> I know that Margaret Mead missed
>the locals custom of raising a ceremonial virgin who was publically
>deflowered on reaching a certain date.
Well, of course, _Coming of Age in Samoa_ was just Mead's repeating of
some boudoir fantasies a couple of young women told her as a joke - Mead didn't
know Samoan.
cheers
John
Gareth
On 2 May 1998, JudyW1917 wrote:
> of Tacitus or Suetonius -- but the grammer is constant. The 4 writers mentioned
> used the abalative case correctly, they didn't have errors in their verbs --
> all of which happened in Medieval Latin. To me this is indicative of the
> cultural
> breakdown which occurred in many areas during the transition from the Late
> Empire to the Middle ages.
>
Cultural breakdown ? What do you mean by that ? The culture of the later
Roman empire evolved in to in some places, and was replaced in others by,
different cultures - that of the early English in Britain, the Franks in
France, Belgium and so on, and the Visigoths in Spain, for example.
Where's the breakdown ?
You almost make it sound as if the post-Roman period truely was the Dark
Ages of earlier misconceptions, where, after the Romans had declined and
fallen all over the place hordes of barbarians spent the next three
hundred years invading, raping and pillaging everywhere, without the
slightest signs of good manners...
____ ____
{ }------------------------------------------------{ }
{ }Gareth Marklew, G.J.M...@durham.ac.uk { }
{ } { }
{ } http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d511kx/ { }
{____}------------------------------------------------{____}
Brian M. Scott
On 2 May 1998 14:11:13 GMT, judy...@aol.com (JudyW1917) wrote:
>In article <354a82f3...@news.csuohio.edu>, sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian
>M. Scott) writes:
>I disagree I think that it is possible to gain some idea of what the everyday
>speech of the people where.
*Some* idea, yes.
> I think that Apuleius can give us a feel for the
>"average" man's speech. No we don't have the gutter Latin but we do have good
>examples so that it is possible to have a good idea how an educated Roman
>spoke.
So far as I can determine, linguists are not generally of this
opinion. It seems to be generally agreed that even when it apparently
attempts to suggest vernacular speech, Classical literature is still
too much bound by artifice to be an altogether reliable guide. We
have *some* idea of how daily speech differed from the artificial
literary language, but it appears to be a considerable exaggeration to
say that we have a *good* idea.
>>>Classical literary Latin is a largely artificial language derived partly from
>>>it and partly from Greek models.
>Certainly writers like Virgil imitated Homer in their subject matter, but their
>use of the Language is uniquely their own and uniquely Roman.
True. It also owes a great deal to Greek stylistic models. If you
wish to inform yourself about such things, I can recommend _The Latin
Language_ by L.R. Palmer; it's a good general survey. 'Yet the
historian of the language who is also a lover of Virgil must stress
the fact taht all Latin literary genres with the exception of satire
.. owed their form and much of their content to Greek practice and
theory.'
Brian M. Scott
JudyW1917
In article <354c282d...@news.csuohio.edu>, sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian
M. Scott) writes:
Talking about genres is different than talking about linguistic style. Yes many
of
the Latin Classical writers adopted Greek genres -- but hey we can also accuse
some of the great Literary Lights of English Literatures of the same thing.
You seem to imply that writing History, Elegies, Satire and Epic Poetry implies
Greek Imitation - then all literature is guilty of imitating the Greeks - which
isn't
a bad thing. I bet every playwright in the world today wishes he could write as
well
as Euripides.
I believe that Palmer overreaches himself when he gets to content.
But the Aeneid is not an exact copy of Homer, no more than Livy and Tacitus
are stylistic copies of Herodotus or Thucydides.
As for the issue of speech/dialogue. I don't always think that dialogue in
modern novels necessarily imitates the spoken word.
Judy
JudyW1917
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95-960729.98...@vega.dur.ac.uk>,
Gareth <G.J.M...@durham.ac.uk> writes:
>ultural breakdown ? What do you mean by that ? The culture of the later
>Roman empire evolved in to in some places, and was replaced in others by,
>different cultures - that of the early English in Britain, the Franks in
>France, Belgium and so on, and the Visigoths in Spain, for example.
>Where's the breakdown
Anytime one cultural replaces another there is a period of cultural breakdown
for
both cultures since the final, emerging cultural is usually an assimilation of
both cultures.
Judy
Gareth
Hmmmm. I still don't like the term "breakdown" whether you intend it to
or not, it still implies that something is going wrong, that there's been
a decine of some sort.
JudyW1917
>
>Hmmmm. I still don't like the term "breakdown" whether you intend it to
>or not, it still implies that something is going wrong, that there's been
>a decine of some sort.
>
From the point of view of members of both cultures - something is going wrong,
and something is declining. Historical hindsight may not view it that way, but
to those living through it - breakdown is the operative word.
Judy
D. Spencer Hines
Yes.
Vide infra.
An apposite example is the Hawaiian culture in the 1820's after the death of
Kamehameha The Great and the arrival of Christian missionaries.
D. Spencer Hines
Fortem Posce Animum.
--
D. Spencer Hines --- Parentibus Caris Pius Filius
JudyW1917 wrote in message
<199805031635...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Brian M. Scott
On 3 May 1998 13:58:36 GMT, judy...@aol.com (JudyW1917) wrote:
>In article <354c282d...@news.csuohio.edu>, sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian
>M. Scott) writes:
>>True. It also owes a great deal to Greek stylistic models. If you
>>wish to inform yourself about such things, I can recommend _The Latin
>>Language_ by L.R. Palmer; it's a good general survey. 'Yet the
>>historian of the language who is also a lover of Virgil must stress
>>the fact taht all Latin literary genres with the exception of satire
>>.. owed their form and much of their content to Greek practice and
>>theory.'
>Talking about genres is different than talking about linguistic style.
You wilfully misinterpret my comments. I do not make frivolous
statements: Palmer does in fact support my original statement that
Classical literary Latin owes a great deal to Greek stylistic models.
His discussion goes *far* beyond the quoted sentence, but I saw no
reason to dump so much off-topic material into this newsgroup.
>I believe that Palmer overreaches himself when he gets to content.
You are of course entitled to your opinion; I'll stick with that of
the experts, however. As it happens, Palmer makes a convincing case
that agrees with my own more limited knowledge.
>As for the issue of speech/dialogue. I don't always think that dialogue in
>modern novels necessarily imitates the spoken word.
Then you should have no trouble understanding why Classical literary
Latin doesn't give us a particularly clear picture of the vernacular.
Brian M. Scott
JudyW1917
In article <354cb46e...@news.csuohio.edu>, sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian
M. Scott) writes:
>
>You are of course entitled to your opinion; I'll stick with that of
>the experts, however. As it happens, Palmer makes a convincing case
>that agrees with my own more limited knowledge.
There are many who do not agree with Palmer. He is not the only person who
had written on this subject, but he appears to be the only one you have read.
>>As for the issue of speech/dialogue. I don't always think that dialogue in
>>modern novels necessarily imitates the spoken word.
>Then you should have no trouble understanding why Classical literary
>Latin doesn't give us a particularly clear picture of the vernacular.
I still feel that what dialogues we have in various writings is still a good
approximation
of the vernacular Latin of its day -- in the same way that the Carmina Burana
represents an imitation of the vernacular of its day which was a corrupted
version of the vernacular Latin of the classical period.
Judy
Brian M. Scott
On 3 May 1998 21:11:32 GMT, judy...@aol.com (JudyW1917) wrote:
>In article <354cb46e...@news.csuohio.edu>, sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian
>M. Scott) writes:
>>You are of course entitled to your opinion; I'll stick with that of
>>the experts, however. As it happens, Palmer makes a convincing case
>>that agrees with my own more limited knowledge.
>There are many who do not agree with Palmer. He is not the only person who
>had written on this subject, but he appears to be the only one you have read.
I have at least read him before citing him. As it happens, he is not
my only source of information on this subjec; he is the one I have
handy and the one I know best. (I am far more interested in the
language than in the literature, and he has a good
comparative-historical grammar.) I really don't know why you're
making such a fuss: the Romans themselves were well aware of their
debt to the Greeks in such matters.
> in the same way that the Carmina Burana
>represents an imitation of the vernacular of its day which was a corrupted
>version of the vernacular Latin of the classical period.
Your prejudices are showing. One could just as well say that modern
French is a corrupted version of Middle French, which in turn was a
corrupted version of Old French, which was a corrupted version of Late
Latin, which was a corrupted version of the Classical vernacular,
which was a corrupted version of Proto-Italic, which was a corrupted
version of Proto-Indo-European, which ... . By that standard every
language is a cesspool of corruption!
Brian M. Scott
Gareth
On 3 May 1998, JudyW1917 wrote:
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.95-960729.98...@vega.dur.ac.uk>,
> Gareth <G.J.M...@durham.ac.uk> writes:
>
> >
> >Hmmmm. I still don't like the term "breakdown" whether you intend it to
> >or not, it still implies that something is going wrong, that there's been
> >a decine of some sort.
> >
>
> From the point of view of members of both cultures - something is going wrong,
> and something is declining. Historical hindsight may not view it that way, but
> to those living through it - breakdown is the operative word.
>
I'm not sure I agree. The implication is that the Romans were running
around their decline and fall, and that the rest were similarly engaged.
Whilst it is true that you get some later Roman writers, Vegitius for
example, who moan about how bad everyrhing was compared to the old days,
that was a trend which was common in Roman writing at the very least from
the late Republic - nostalgia was apparently as popular then as it is now.
Jgissw
>From: judy...@aol.com (JudyW1917)
>Date: 3 May 1998 16:35:44 GMT
>From the point of view of members of both cultures - something is going
>wrong,
>and something is declining. Historical hindsight may not view it that way,
>but
>to those living through it - breakdown is the operative word.
>
>
Since the transition to the medieval world from
the Roman isn't well documented, we have to infer
from off- topic examples, so I'll mention the case of
King Phillip's war. Other examples swarm to mind -
Yugoslavia. These transitions may not be smooth,
because the extremists on both sides resent change.
May result in war, and a much worse immediate final
result.
Don't know if this really applies to linguistic
changes, though.
Cheers
John GW
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>>>As for the issue of speech/dialogue. I don't always think that dialogue in
>>>modern novels necessarily imitates the spoken word.
>>Then you should have no trouble understanding why Classical literary
>>Latin doesn't give us a particularly clear picture of the vernacular.
>I still feel that what dialogues we have in various writings is still a good
>approximation
>of the vernacular Latin of its day -- in the same way that the Carmina Burana
>represents an imitation of the vernacular of its day which was a corrupted
>version of the vernacular Latin of the classical period.
And the same way modern novels represents an imitation of today's vernacular
which is a corrupted version of the vernacular English of Shakespeare's time?
Gareth
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, David Friedman wrote:
> In article <6ib4a4$s72$1...@duke.telepac.pt>, "Ricardo A Lopes"
> <bfe...@mail.telepac.pt> wrote:
>
>
> > Such right and its latin designation remit to a primitive feudal
> >practice allowing a lord to rape his slave's bride.
>
> Do you have any medieval primary sources to support that assertion? We all
> agree that such a story exists, but some of us are sceptical about whether
> it is true.
Some ?
eril...@trashspamwin.bright.net
In article <354d2f92...@news.csuohio.edu>, sc...@math.csuohio.edu
(Brian M. Scott) wrote:
> Your prejudices are showing. One could just as well say that modern
> French is a corrupted version of Middle French, which in turn was a
> corrupted version of Old French, which was a corrupted version of Late
> Latin, which was a corrupted version of the Classical vernacular,
> which was a corrupted version of Proto-Italic, which was a corrupted
> version of Proto-Indo-European, which ... . By that standard every
> language is a cesspool of corruption!
I couldn't resist: As a student of the Germanic languages, I often refer
to ALL the Romance languages as descended from vulgar Latin;-)
erilar, who has almost totally forgotten her medieval Latin anyway
--
Mechthild zur Drachenhoehle, erilar
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Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo