Swedish official seals and Knights Templars cross
IE J
until King Karl Sverkersson, of the Sverker Dynasty from Östergötland the
tradition to use a seal came into practise. From there on seals and
contra-seals were made for each king but also for those who were Jarl of
Sweden.
As in many other cases Sweden has had a tradition which gives more
information about the person behind the seal or coin than what an untrained
eye first can see.
I leave the comments for each seal for now.
Those of you who can read Swedish can read about seals in:
http://wadbring.com/historia/sidor/vapen.htm
One of the first to use a Jarl seal was Birger Jarl. In fact he had many
first from the years when he was the guardian of his son Valdemar who due to
the wife of Birger Jarl being of the Eriksson dynasty came to be 'elected'
king of Sweden while still a child. Then he had others as well. here is one
of his seals:
<http://wadbring.com/historia/sidor/birgerj.htm>
Some might wonder why I am using wadbring's site. Reason for this is that
while there are many works and books dealing with Swedish Royalty's seals
and coins, there aren't so many good images to be found on net. Some of
those on net doesn't look like the origins at all, thus I chosen his site
because the photos and drawings in it is correct compared to the origins.
From 1200's Knights came to have own seals in Sweden. title: "Dominus" and
two who showed themselves as knights on the seals were the Duke Erik and
Valdemar. Brother of King Birger. Duke Erik was the father of King Magnus
Eriksson.
http://wasbring.com/historia/sidor/vapen.htm
as you can see it wasn't a practise for a knight in Sweden to use the
Templars cross. Which might make some sit relaxing saying that of course
there wasn't.
But it's a too hasty reaction of their.
Actually there are at least two occasions when a Swedish Regin, King or
Jarl, used the Templars cross
and it happens to be from specific time in their reign. But that's not what
I will discuss here. Neither will I discuss the close connection to the
Cisterciencer Order for these specific time in their case or in the case of
the Vadstena Seal. One of the two persons who used the Templars cross on top
of his seal(those who are interested better order works and books dealing
with Swedish Heraldic
and Swedish Royal Seals the photos of origins there are many hundred procent
better than on net), was King Magnus Eriksson:
http://www.all2know.com/sv/media/b/bc/kung_magnus_erikssons_domsigill.jpg
compare the cross on top with the cross on the Templars seal:
http://www.templarhistory.com/seal.html
compare it with the earlier sent ref. to Gotlandic churches, and above all
try to learn about who married who and who were descendant to one(or two) of
the founders of the Knights Templars before you write your article in this
subject. It's much much more to be told and since books dealing with these
questions are several hundred pages each, read before you believe that you
can form an opinion within 15 minuits or an hour.
Here are two other sites to compare the seals mentioned above with:
<http://www.smb.nu/svenskakrig/freder/1343b.asp>
http://www.sanctabirgitta.com/underniva/forska/artikel_visa.asp?Id=228
Inger E
Todd A. Farmerie
> Actually there are at least two occasions when a Swedish Regin, King or
> Jarl, used the Templars cross
> and it happens to be from specific time in their reign. But that's not what
> I will discuss here. Neither will I discuss the close connection to the
> Cisterciencer Order for these specific time in their case or in the case of
> the Vadstena Seal. One of the two persons who used the Templars cross on top
> of his seal(those who are interested better order works and books dealing
> with Swedish Heraldic
> and Swedish Royal Seals the photos of origins there are many hundred procent
> better than on net), was King Magnus Eriksson:
> http://www.all2know.com/sv/media/b/bc/kung_magnus_erikssons_domsigill.jpg
This "Templar Cross" (sic) is just a plain old cross of a type found as
a space-filler and/or word-divider on innumerable medieval seals, and
doesn't have the slightest thing to do with the Templars. Examples
include seals of Enguerrand Campdaveine (1141/1150); William Fitz
Robert, Earl of Gloucester; Philip d'Alsace, Count of Flanders; John,
Count of Mortain (later King of England).
You know, the Europeans used crosses in design before the Templars ever
existed.
> compare the cross on top with the cross on the Templars seal:
> http://www.templarhistory.com/seal.html
They don't look all that similar.
taf
Tom McDonald
IE J wrote:
What does this have to do with archaeology?
It seems you are working at cross-purposes to the rest of the s.a. ng.
<snip>
Roge
"Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147555630.1...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
I think it has to do with the KRS, although why Inger bothers I
don't know
because Dracula, the Wolfman and Frankenstein were visiting the KRS recently
Dracula bit it and said it was made about tooth hurtee,the wolfman scratched
it up
and said he thought O.OOHman carved it,Frankenstein said you can easily spot
a fake
Roge
IE J
"Roge" <roged...@tiscali.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:e45rvd$j93$1...@emma.aioe.org...
Since when does anyone here try to make believe that Medieval Seals aren't
artifacts and thus can't be discussed in sci.archaeology???
Knights Templars connection are of importance here in Europe. Medieval Seals
is also of great importance.
Here in Sweden the Knights Templars connection proven or believed has
resulted in a special tour launched by Västergötlands Museum:
http://www.arnmagnusson.se/
All this come about after Novels written by journalist Jan Guillou was
published. First book in the serie edited 1998. Now as you can read in the
url, neither has it anything to do with KRS the interest that nor is the
proposed 'all' denial of a Knights Templar - Swedish connection true.
While Catshaman(Bengt Hemtun), who I refered to in previous article, is very
against Guillou, which from a political point of view is understandable not
so much from a fact point of view, he does believe that the cross on the
church of Forshem to be a Templar cross.
"Ovanför byggarens huvud finns ett sannolikt templarkors. Och nån har ristat
in ett i en pelare vid ingången. Man ska var försiktig med bedömningen
eftersom det likarmade grekiska korset var på modet vid denna tid. Men detta
tycks ha den normala templarformen. Vidare har man noterat att Ryttaren som
kommer in från höger trampar byggaren på tårna. Det lär vara en
hälsningsgest man infört från Palestina.. ."
I leave the translation of all text to Alan. Only translate the first
sentence. "Above the builders head is a probable Templar cross."
http://catshamans.se/m03munk/032cisterc.htm
In the Forshem case many others agree with the Templar cross case.
Forshem is important as are the churches I mentioned earlier of Gotland.
There is much more to be said and I am not the only one who have hidden
cards up my sleeves :-)
Inger E
>
>
>
>
>
>
Tom McDonald
IE J wrote:
> "Roge" <roged...@tiscali.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
> news:e45rvd$j93$1...@emma.aioe.org...
> >
> > "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1147555630.1...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > IE J wrote:
> > >
> > > What does this have to do with archaeology?
> > >
> > > It seems you are working at cross-purposes to the rest of the s.a. ng.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > Y'all,
> > I think it has to do with the KRS, although why Inger bothers I
> > don't know
> > because Dracula, the Wolfman and Frankenstein were visiting the KRS
> recently
> > Dracula bit it and said it was made about tooth hurtee,the wolfman
> scratched
> > it up
> > and said he thought O.OOHman carved it,Frankenstein said you can easily
> spot
> > a fake
> > Roge
>
> Since when does anyone here try to make believe that Medieval Seals aren't
> artifacts and thus can't be discussed in sci.archaeology???
I asked what your bloody seals, and come to that your bloody Templars,
in the current incarnation of this ramified and seemingly endless
blather, has to do with archaeology. You have not yet made the
connection.
> Knights Templars connection are of importance here in Europe. Medieval Seals
> is also of great importance.
This may be true. Let us assume for a moment that it is true. The
archaeological question is:
So bloody what?
Make the connection, or take the bloody discussion to a more
appropriate ng.
Shit is important to the history of Europe. It also has relevance in
archaeology. This does not mean that talking shit was, absent
connection, archaeological.
<snip>
IE J
in the churches of Gotland all have lines to one ancestor of Ivar Bardson
and his brother the Bishop. So from one point this also has to do with KRS,
but it's when linking the Templars cross and Ivar Bardson himself - that I
didn't say or didn't intend when starting discussion re. artifacts discussed
below.
One more thing. If you look close on the images in the urls you will find a
piece of Scandinavian History very often discussed not to have existed
before Albert of Mechlenburg's days. An artifact in itself symbolizing much
more than I will discuss in this specific article.
Inger E
"IE J" <inger_e....@telia.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:aKv9g.57053$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
IE J
"Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:1147578990.6...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I did. The text in the urls did. It's only you who once again can't help
that you aren't able to comprehend the importance of artifacts like seals to
tell the story of the past.
Or are you trying to say that Royal Medieval Seals can't be judged to be
artifacts? Well you are an American, that might explain a lot.
Inger E
Peter Alaca
> [...]
> Well you are an American, that might explain a lot.
And you are an empty-headed gassy pretentious prat.
That explaines a lot more.
--
p.a.
Peter Alaca
> forgot to mention one thing:
> Inger E
> "IE J" <inger_e....@telia.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:aKv9g.57053$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
Mmm, interesting. She is topposting herself.
That means she doesn't 'subscribe' to what
she wrote earlier.
--
p.a.
Roge
"IE J" <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote in message
news:aKv9g.57053$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
So you tell me the Swedish Templars have nothing to do with
the KRS
but then you say to Tom that Ivar Bardson is a Templar descendant is that
right
as I have hay fever now because of that Swedish birch pollen so I only read
you post briefly.
Btw,I read that a Norman chronicler wrote Cansie for Scandinavia is that a
usual
spelling because Cana is the Irish for dolphin or whale and it might occur
in
places like Canvey,Canis Insula,Canaries and Canada.St Brendan might have
been to Canada as he did speak of a whale.
Roge
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
IE J
Well I can't connect Ivar Bardson himself neither directly or indirectly
with the Knights Templars. He most certainly was a monk..... well if we look
at the documents when his inheritance was up after his death 1400(!) he
seems to have had some child out of wedlock. Not extremely odd.... but while
I can link Ivar Bardson directly with KRS as well as show who is behind
which of the areas shown in old maps, I can't link Ivar Bardson directly or
anyone from his branch in 14th century directly with the Knights Templars,
which would have to be done to connect the Swedish official seals with KRS,
I most certainly can show why the two Royal Families the Sverker's Dynasty
and the so called Folkunga Dynasty were close connected to the Knights
Templars via Cistercienser Order members who became Knights and via
intermarriages between French and Flamlandic Noblemen and members of the
Royal Families in those areas to members of the Dynastys mentioned above.
That part has nothing to do with KRS apart from that one of the artifacts
found close to Twin City is a copy of an artifact found on Aaland on a farm
owned by one of the branches of above mentioned Royal Families. BUT what can
be proven is that there were Scandinavians in NA in 1360's. One map edited
in early 1800's was edited from a 1360 map.
> Btw,I read that a Norman chronicler wrote Cansie for Scandinavia is that a
> usual
> spelling because Cana is the Irish for dolphin or whale and it might occur
> in
> places like Canvey,Canis Insula,Canaries and Canada.St Brendan might have
> been to Canada as he did speak of a whale.
> Roge
One of the Scots Clan's let members of their try to follow what they have
documented re. St Brendan's voyage. I heard that they ended up close to
something called Martha's Vinyard.
Inger E
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Alan Crozier
I quoted named scholars, experts in their field. You hinted that there are "other genuine
and well accepted scholars", yet the best you can come up with seems
to be a site promoting tours in the trail of a fictional character.
> All this come about after Novels written by journalist Jan Guillou was
> published. First book in the serie edited 1998. Now as you can read in the
> url, neither has it anything to do with KRS the interest that nor is the
> proposed 'all' denial of a Knights Templar - Swedish connection true.
>
> While Catshaman(Bengt Hemtun), who I refered to in previous article, is very
> against Guillou, which from a political point of view is understandable not
> so much from a fact point of view, he does believe that the cross on the
> church of Forshem to be a Templar cross.
>
> "Ovanför byggarens huvud finns ett sannolikt templarkors. Och nån har ristat
> in ett i en pelare vid ingången. Man ska var försiktig med bedömningen
> eftersom det likarmade grekiska korset var på modet vid denna tid. Men detta
> tycks ha den normala templarformen. Vidare har man noterat att Ryttaren som
> kommer in från höger trampar byggaren på tårna. Det lär vara en
> hälsningsgest man infört från Palestina.. ."
>
> I leave the translation of all text to Alan. Only translate the first
> sentence. "Above the builders head is a probable Templar cross."
> http://catshamans.se/m03munk/032cisterc.htm
It starts:
"Above the head of the builder is a probable Templar cross. And someone has carved one into
a pillar by the entrance. One should be cautious since the equal-armed Greek cross was in
fashion at this time. But this seems to have been the normal Templar form."
One should indeed be cautious, especially concerning any paintings of a 12th-century cross
pattee by a Russian or Byzantine artist.
> In the Forshem case many others agree with the Templar cross case.
But how many of them are serious scholars?
> Forshem is important as are the churches I mentioned earlier of Gotland.
> There is much more to be said and I am not the only one who have hidden
> cards up my sleeves :-)
Beware of card players who do indulge in that kind of cheating ;-) Trust only people who put
their cards on the table.
Alan
--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden
Alan Crozier
> Well I can't connect Ivar Bardson himself neither directly or indirectly
> with the Knights Templars. He most certainly was a monk..... well if we look
> at the documents when his inheritance was up after his death 1400(!) he
> seems to have had some child out of wedlock. Not extremely odd.... but while
> I can link Ivar Bardson directly with KRS as well as show who is behind
> which of the areas shown in old maps, I can't link Ivar Bardson directly or
> anyone from his branch in 14th century directly with the Knights Templars,
I can't reconcile this with your earlier post in which you said:
"The Templars cross in Forshem's church and used in the churches of Gotland all have lines
to one ancestor of Ivar Bardson and his brother the Bishop."
First you say you have a link, then you say you have none. I tend to believe in the second
statement.
Anyway, your supposed genealogical links are not proof of anything, just
tenuous inferences. There is no evidence of any Templar organization in
Scandinavia. I remind you again of what a serious scholar with nothing up his
sleeves, Dick Harrison, wrote:
"It cannot be ruled out that occasional Scandinavians joined the Templars, but
there is no documentary evidence for this. ... attempts to link the Templars
to Nordic latitudes by proceeding from cross symbols in churches
belong in the world of fiction rather than historical
scholarship. In a medieval society without generally recognized
power authorities it was impossible to maintain strict rules for
how such symbols should be used, so crosses like those in
Forshem Church in Västergötland cannot be linked to any
particular organization. Anyone who wants to find Nordic
Templars should search in the documents, and there they are
conspicuous by their absence."
I posted that on 14 February. In the three months that have passed I have not been shown any
documentary evidence.
<rest snipped>
Soren Larsen
Hey! What about my horse with two riders?
If I was going to troll about norse templars, that would be the way I'd
go.
Cheers
Soren Larsen
--
History is not what it used to be.
Peter Alaca
> "IE J" wrote
>> Since when does anyone here try to make believe that Medieval Seals
>> aren't artifacts and thus can't be discussed in sci.archaeology???
>> Knights Templars connection are of importance here in Europe.
>> Medieval Seals is also of great importance.
>> Here in Sweden the Knights Templars connection proven or believed has
>> resulted in a special tour launched by Västergötlands Museum:
>> http://www.arnmagnusson.se/
> I quoted named scholars, experts in their field. You hinted that
> there are "other genuine and well accepted scholars", yet the best
> you can come up with seems to be a site promoting tours in the
> trail of a fictional character.
Yes, but despite of that, under Forshem he says:
"One of the people in the sculptures looks remarkably like Arn"
Curious people, see
http://web.telia.com/~u31109390/runes_and_ruins/index.htm
Choose 'churchruins' and then 'Forshem' and see the 7 pages
with photographs.
On the second page you see a sculpture which looks
remakable like Inger taken away by two men in white coats.
She has a big card up her left sleeve, and the key to the
archaeological relevance of all this is in her right hand.
--
p.a.
Grethe
"Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:446707ae$0$47055$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...
> If I was going to troll about norse templars, that would be the way I'd
> go.
>
> Cheers
> Soren Larsen
>
> --
> History is not what it used to be.
This is both history and archeaology:
The talk about the Maltese cross has been very interesting.
I have met some special crosses in stone reliefs, but I don't
connect them to the Maltese cross. If you look at the stone
relief with the cross in this link, then I've found a lot of such
oblong reliefs by Danish village churches. I reckon they are
some sort of consecration cross like the frescoe consecration
circle upon the church walls? Or they look a little like some
bishop's crozier? I haven't found any explanations yet, but
I would appreciate any suggestion.
http://thyra2005.blogspot.com/2006/05/grnbk-church-mid-jutland-grnbk-church.html
Cheers
Grethe
A historian is someone who wasn't there.
Peter Alaca
> Hey! What about my horse with two riders?
> If I was going to troll about norse templars, that would be the way
> I'd go.
I know one from around 1490 with four riders.
Het ros Beyaert en de vier Heemskinderen
http://www.nlpvf.nl/delta/hist_heem.php
Once in ten year a great Ros-Beiaard procession
is held in the Belgian town Dendermonde.
http://tinyurl.com/fyy63
A nice modern depiction
http://www.johnnyrolfjanderooden.nl/devierhk.htm
--
p.a.
David Read
"Peter Alaca" <P.A...@556.nn> wrote in message
news:44671c9b$0$12732$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
What's best - four in tandem, or four abreast?
Decisions, decisions...
This could mean another apoplectic Apocalypse.
--
cheers,
David Read
IE J
or two years before I saw your name./IEJ (more below)
"Alan Crozier" <name1...@telia.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:UpD9g.57113$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
> "IE J" <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote in message
> news:d_C9g.57095$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
> > Well I can't connect Ivar Bardson himself neither directly or indirectly
> > with the Knights Templars. He most certainly was a monk..... well if we
look
> > at the documents when his inheritance was up after his death 1400(!) he
> > seems to have had some child out of wedlock. Not extremely odd.... but
while
> > I can link Ivar Bardson directly with KRS as well as show who is behind
> > which of the areas shown in old maps, I can't link Ivar Bardson directly
or
> > anyone from his branch in 14th century directly with the Knights
Templars,
>
> I can't reconcile this with your earlier post in which you said:
> "The Templars cross in Forshem's church and used in the churches of
Gotland all have lines
> to one ancestor of Ivar Bardson and his brother the Bishop."
Ivar Bardson's will will tell you a lot. What I told above was that while I
can link Ivar Bardson directly with KRS, I can't provide same for his own or
his contemporary living relatives of the Norwegian branch and the Knights
Templars. For the former you either will have to look for discussion three
or four years ago. Or if you want start a new thread re. Ivar Bardson - KRS.
>
> First you say you have a link, then you say you have none. I tend to
believe in the second
> statement.
I don't speak of net-link but that I can link them up/link them together. No
problem at all, all you have to do is study the runes which can be proven to
have been written by Ivar Bardson elsewhere. For more discussion in this
subject, please start a new thread.
>
> Anyway, your supposed genealogical links are not proof of anything, just
> tenuous inferences. There is no evidence of any Templar organization in
> Scandinavia. I remind you again of what a serious scholar with nothing up
his
> sleeves, Dick Harrison, wrote:
OH YES THERE IS!!!!!!!
In this case Dick Harrison missed. Probably because he didn't know that we
did have a Templar representant here as early as a few years after the
Templars were founded. AND you have missed one thing there are several
serious scholars who have an other opinion. I think you better be a bit more
restrective before you judge scholars who belong to the so called
Västgötaskolan.
>
> "It cannot be ruled out that occasional Scandinavians joined the Templars,
but
> there is no documentary evidence for this. ... attempts to link the
Templars
> to Nordic latitudes by proceeding from cross symbols in churches
> belong in the world of fiction rather than historical
> scholarship. In a medieval society without generally recognized
> power authorities it was impossible to maintain strict rules for
> how such symbols should be used, so crosses like those in
> Forshem Church in Västergötland cannot be linked to any
> particular organization. Anyone who wants to find Nordic
> Templars should search in the documents, and there they are
> conspicuous by their absence."
>
> I posted that on 14 February. In the three months that have passed I have
not been shown any
> documentary evidence.
It's wrong doesn't matter that Dick Harrison thought otherwise.
Inger E
IE J
you may quote how many you like, you(and they) are still wrong. Serious
scholars linked to Museums also say that the cross in Forshem as well the
cross on Magnus Eriksson's seal are that of the Templars.
Apart from that. You better learn not to lean to quotes taken out of context
where neither seals nor the Forshem's church is fully discussed.
Inger E
Alan Crozier
I see no point in starting a new thread, or continuing this one. There is nothing to respond
to here since you present no evidence. "OH YES THERE IS!!!!!!!" does not count as evidence.
Alan Crozier
First. I did not give you permission to use my name in the header of a message. You can
answer messages in the normal way without putting names in the header. Your newsreader
states clearly at the beginning of the message who you are replying to.
Second, you make a false accusation when you say that I lean to quotes taken out of context.
I did not take Dick Harrison's quote out of context. I faithfully translated an entire
passage from his book about the crusades. Dick Harrison mailed me that quotation from his
book in answer to a question I asked him about the evidence for Templars in Scandinavia. To
say that I have taken it "out of context" is almost like accusing me of wilfully
misrepresenting the author's intentions. Nothing was out of context.
Third, if it is wrong to take quotes out of context (which I didn't do), then how can it be
right to refer vaguely to anonymous experts out of context (as you always do)?
Todd A. Farmerie
> Soren Larsen wrote: news:446707ae$0$47055$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk
>> Hey! What about my horse with two riders?
>
>> If I was going to troll about norse templars, that would be the way
>> I'd go.
>
> I know one from around 1490 with four riders.
> Het ros Beyaert en de vier Heemskinderen
> http://www.nlpvf.nl/delta/hist_heem.php
The tale of the 6th century battle of Ardderyd (Cumberland), in which
King Rhydderch annihilated the army of King Gwenddoleu and subsumed his
kingdom, and after which Gwenddoleu's bard Myrddin (who some take to be
an early model for Merlin) went mad and fled to a cave in the hills,
includes four men arriving on a single horse. This proves that, like
the Masons, the Templars existed long before their creation.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> Alan,
> you may quote how many you like, you(and they) are still wrong. Serious
> scholars linked to Museums also say that the cross in Forshem as well the
> cross on Magnus Eriksson's seal are that of the Templars.
If they do, then they either don't know enough about European seals to
draw a meaningful conclusions, or they have allowed themselves to be
blinded by a predetermined conclusion, like a poster to this group we
all know, or even more probably, they say nothing of the sort, but
instead are having words put in their mouth.
When you make such unfounded assertions do you really think it is not
obvious what you are doing? It takes "the lurkers support me in email"
to a whole new level - "The scholars (who are important in their fields
but I won't name them) all agree with the ridiculous conclusions I have
been drawing." Just keep telling yourself that enough and you may come
to believe it, but I doubt many others will.
taf
Tom McDonald
Grethe wrote:
<snip>
> This is both history and archeaology:
Wonderful! Relevance in s.a. at last!
> The talk about the Maltese cross has been very interesting.
> I have met some special crosses in stone reliefs, but I don't
> connect them to the Maltese cross. If you look at the stone
> relief with the cross in this link, then I've found a lot of such
> oblong reliefs by Danish village churches. I reckon they are
> some sort of consecration cross like the frescoe consecration
> circle upon the church walls? Or they look a little like some
> bishop's crozier? I haven't found any explanations yet, but
> I would appreciate any suggestion.
>
> http://thyra2005.blogspot.com/2006/05/grnbk-church-mid-jutland-grnbk-church.html
Erm...where is the archaeology? This looks very like history that
*might* relate to archaeology *if* an archaeological context is
specified. What did I miss?
Tom McDonald
IE J wrote:
<snip>
> Or if you want start a new thread re. Ivar Bardson - KRS.
If you do start such a thread, I'd like to ask that you do it in
another ng than sci.archaeology. Until and unless you provide a real,
specific, overt archaeological context for the discussion. Bardason's
geneology, map studies, etc., are not archaeological without explicit
connection.
Thank you.
<snip>
Tom McDonald
And you better learn what archaeology is, and what is on-topic to
discuss in an archaeological ng. So far, you haven't comprehended that
very well.
But then you are a Swede. Perhaps we can't expect too much intellectual
robustness from you.
:-)
Dylan Sung
"Alan Crozier" <name1...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:fBI9g.57168$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
I wonder if Inger has published her book yet.
Dyl.
Tom McDonald
No. Her dog, who ate a large number of un-named top scholars in every
relevant (and some irrelevant) fields, died of ennui waiting for
scanners to heal their sore knees and was buried in homework and book
manuscripts on the family farm where generations of close friends and
family were also buried, with the same queer sort of burial goods as
the dog.
Or so I'm told.
Peter Alaca
The magician in the 'Four (H)aymons Children' is called 'Maeldegijs'.
About story and background in English:
http://tinyurl.com/m99wz
The complete story in Middle Dutch after a 1508 issue:
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_his003heem01/ (index page)
--
p.a.
Grethe
Well, I've got a very simple question, and this time
I'll make it as short as possible. Is there anyone of
you, who can give me an explanation for the oblong
stone relief with the cross in my link? I've found a
relief like that in many churches.(The same cross is
also seen upon the stone altar in this link)
http://thyra2005.blogspot.com/2006/05/grnbk-church-mid-jutland-grnbk-church.html
Cheers
Grethe `:)
Grethe
"Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1147629242.4...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
so I'll just move my question to shm, my old group.
Grethe `:)
Alan Crozier
news:446792e3$0$27609$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
Hi Grethe,
Are you sure the stone originally stood this way up?
Alan Crozier
<snip>
>
> It's wrong doesn't matter that Dick Harrison thought otherwise.
Suddenly the opinion held by the best medieval historian in Sweden doesn't
matter. How times have changed! Here are some previous comments about
Dick Harrison:
"one of Sweden's best Professors Dick Harrison"
"Prof. Dick Harrison, Lund Sweden, one of Scandinavia's and thus the worlds best specialist
on Medieval Scandinavian History"
"Today we have several good Medieval Historians who are specialist in the area. Professor
Dick Harrison who I consult from time to time and also according to agreement have sent
interesting facts and sources over the years, he is the best at present."
"You certainly would have good answer from one of today's best Medieval Historians Dick
Harrison Lund's university to make you chance your mind!"
"At the moment we have two real good Historians. Professor Dick Harrison, who I have had the
pleasure to discuss and also sent sources and findings I have made more than once over the
years. I haven't spoken to him the last 8 months. He is doing more than fine presenting
information which will change the paradigm more than anyone of you can believe."
Alan Crozier
> Todd A. Farmerie wrote: news:e47oit$frt$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu
> > Peter Alaca wrote:
> >> Soren Larsen wrote:
>
> >>> Hey! What about my horse with two riders?
> >>> If I was going to troll about norse templars, that would be the way
> >>> I'd go.
>
> >> I know one from around 1490 with four riders.
> >> Het ros Beyaert en de vier Heemskinderen
> >> http://www.nlpvf.nl/delta/hist_heem.php
>
> > The tale of the 6th century battle of Ardderyd (Cumberland), in which
> > King Rhydderch annihilated the army of King Gwenddoleu and subsumed
> > his kingdom, and after which Gwenddoleu's bard Myrddin (who some take
> > to be an early model for Merlin) went mad and fled to a cave in the
> > hills, includes four men arriving on a single horse. This proves
> > that, like the Masons, the Templars existed long before their
> > creation.
> >
> > taf
>
> The magician in the 'Four (H)aymons Children' is called 'Maeldegijs'.
He's called Maugris in French, Malagigi in Italian.
> About story and background in English:
> http://tinyurl.com/m99wz
>
> The complete story in Middle Dutch after a 1508 issue:
> http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_his003heem01/ (index page)
Doe seide Maeldegijs: 'Ic seg u certein, gi weet luttel wie ic ben of wat ic can.'
Grethe
"Alan Crozier" <name1...@telia.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:BSM9g.57197$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
The photo shows how it's placed today, and the other
examples from other churches are also placed horizontal.
Maybe they have beem moved from an upright position
and from another place. Could it have been a grave stone
once btw? I keep thinking that it might have something to
do with a bishop!
Grethe
Tom McDonald
I do appreciate it, Grethe. Please consider sci.archaeology for all of
your *archaeological* discussion needs.
Oops: :-)
Tom McDonald
So no one is safe when the Madam has to cover her...oh, dear; what I
almost wrote.
Dylan Sung
> "IE J" <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote in message
> news:LcI9g.57162$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
> <snip>
>>
>> It's wrong doesn't matter that Dick Harrison thought otherwise.
>
>
> Suddenly the opinion held by the best medieval historian in Sweden doesn't
> matter. How times have changed! Here are some previous comments about
> Dick Harrison:
>
> "one of Sweden's best Professors Dick Harrison"
from
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.archaeology/msg/f873bb05bb76c911?dmode=source
>
> "Prof. Dick Harrison, Lund Sweden, one of Scandinavia's and thus the
> worlds
> best specialist on Medieval Scandinavian History"
>
from
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.archaeology/msg/ef6f4ce60a513cc4?dmode=source
> "Today we have several good Medieval Historians who are specialist in the
> area. Professor Dick Harrison who I consult from time to time and also
> according to agreement have sent interesting facts and sources over the
> years, he is the best at present."
>
from
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/671a73ddafe33ed9?dmode=source
> "You certainly would have good answer from one of today's best Medieval
> Historians Dick Harrison Lund's university to make you chance your mind!"
>
from
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.medieval/msg/9c84c06bb6a5fe4b?dmode=source
> "At the moment we have two real good Historians. Professor Dick Harrison,
> who I have had the pleasure to discuss and also sent sources and findings
> I have made more than once over the years. I haven't spoken to him the
> last 8 months. He is doing more than fine presenting information which
> will change the paradigm more than anyone of you can believe."
>
from
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.medieval/msg/f4d26d3a3fcd2cd5?dmode=source
Or
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=%22Professor+Dick+Harrison%22
More:
"
: > > As I said in re.Dick Harrison is that he has given other
: > > information in
: > > question of the Knights here in Sweden when he had lectures in
: > Västergötland
: > > and in Stockholm areas. I hadn't a chance to be there listning
: > to it so all
: > > I have is second hand information and also a ref to an article
: > where it
: > > doesn't seem as if you are right when it comes to the close
: > contacts after
: > > 1308 between the Templars and the Holy Graves Order.
: > >
: > > Shall you or I send a request to him asking him of his
: > position today?
: >
: > His position today hasn't changed. He mailed me that quotation
: > at 11.27 today. I asked him if there was any evidence that the
: > Templars were ever established in Scandinavia. His answer was
: > "Nix" plus that quotation.
: >
: > Nice try, Inger.
:
: It wasn't a try. It was what I have heard from those who listened to him.
: They obviously got it wrong. Thus I am wrong about his position in the
: question. No matter which there are documents pointing to a complete other
: answer. Looking around I found that scholars abroad reached same
conclusion.
: I will return with quotes.
:
: Inger E
"
from
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.archaeology/msg/3898fbb9df11b3d2?dmode=source
"I have spoken to Dick Harrison several
times over the years and also sent him information of which he used some in
articles, some in books. I am not sure you have followed the Swedish debare
closely the last years. Dick H is much more open for what you call
unorthodox beliefs and so Prof B Sawyer seem to be if you followed the
Dissertations that's been up at 'her' Dept. the last years."
from
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.medieval/msg/aea5f06c0d0674dc?dmode=source
"Btw. going thru the history of the Swedish Goths many good archaeologists
among them Anders Kaliff done, so Magnus ought to know the difference
between Goths and the 'Goth thing'. Anyhow among scholars of History Magnus
better talk to most here in Sweden would say that Dick Harrison is the best.
"
from
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.archaeology/msg/e4d23ae979de98c7?dmode=source
"For example spoke Prof. Dick
Harrison, Lund Sweden, one of Scandinavia's and thus the worlds best
specialist on Medieval Scandinavian History summer 2001 in Nyköping about an
other interpretation of the Vinland facts than in the L'anse Medow area, and
his interpretation of Vinland places it in an other Geographical
surroundings."
from
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.archaeology/msg/ef6f4ce60a513cc4?dmode=source
And more here
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=%22Dick+Harrison%22+Inger
Dyl.
Dylan Sung
"Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147631290.6...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Dog must've ended up with a bad case of digestive disturbance. Perhaps it
did it in that box she keeps in the cellar, as she's always referring to it.
That or she never had anything worthwhile that a publisher would put money
into to get published allegedly since she has a track record of not
recieving corrections with good humour and scholarly humbleness. Or so I'm
told.
Dyl.
Peter Alaca
Thanks guys. It is clear. Harrison is the best, until Inger
is caught with her knockers down her knees (Sorry, I am
dyxlestic), and then there are always "documents pointing
to a complete other answer", and even "scholars abroad"
Next project her view on foreign scholars?
I quess that are at least ten pages.
--
p.a.
Grethe
Grethe `:)
Dylan Sung
"David Read" <davi...@dreadful.fsnet.uk> wrote in message
news:e47eft$fdg$1...@emma.aioe.org...
Perhaps they've got budget cutbacks and the Riders of the Apocalypse could
only afford the one horse. That or they've been watching Brokeback Mountain
a bit too closely.
Dyl.
Dylan Sung
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:e47q6i$i9l$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
One outcome of the situation I suspect is that she cannot name the scholars
she alludes to possibly for fear of their criticisms or reprisals for her
misrepresentation of their proper position. No names means also no one can
verify her claims, and this is self defeating in the end, if what she says
is true, and if those people who she cites anonymously do actually support
her. Just saying "it is so" and everyone else who disagrees are "naysayers"
show the gulf between proper academic scholarship and the fantasist who
believes too deeply in their own make believe world. Very sad, either way.
Dyl.
Peter Alaca
> "Tom McDonald" wrote
>> Dylan Sung wrote:
>>> I wonder if Inger has published her book yet.
>> No. Her dog, who ate a large number of un-named top scholars in every
>> relevant (and some irrelevant) fields, died of ennui waiting for
>> scanners to heal their sore knees and was buried in homework and book
>> manuscripts on the family farm where generations of close friends and
>> family were also buried, with the same queer sort of burial goods as
>> the dog.
>> Or so I'm told.
> Dog must've ended up with a bad case of digestive disturbance.
> Perhaps it did it in that box she keeps in the cellar, as she's
> always referring to it. That or she never had anything worthwhile
> that a publisher would put money into to get published allegedly
> since she has a track record of not recieving corrections with good
> humour and scholarly humbleness. Or so I'm told.
I quess they are happy to publish the dog, but because of
the 'queer' software, she can't get it out of the box.
--
p.a.
Peter Alaca
Usually thet means they found a crate of beer,
or at leasst a six-pack.
--
p.a.
Dylan Sung
"Peter Alaca" <P.A...@556.nn> wrote in message
As I said earlier:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.medieval/msg/f6da7171abf470b5
Dyl.
Peter Alaca
Something like this:
Then Maeldegijs said: "I can assure you, you have no idea
who I am or what I am able to.
--
p.a.
##minty
##minty...
Peter Alaca
> Since when does anyone here try to make believe that Medieval Seals
> aren't artifacts and thus can't be discussed in sci.archaeology???
> [...]
Seals are not artifacts but part of Natural History
And they are not archaeology (unless they are
excavated in the warm middle of Greenland)
Here is a banned Templar seal, allegedly on
his way to Sweden: http://tinyurl.com/lzz7q
--
p.a.
IE J
"Peter Alaca" <P.A...@556.nn> skrev i meddelandet
news:4468476c$0$10002$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> IE J wrote: news:aKv9g.57053$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net
>
> > Since when does anyone here try to make believe that Medieval Seals
> > aren't artifacts and thus can't be discussed in sci.archaeology???
> > [...]
>
> Seals are not artifacts but part of Natural History
> And they are not archaeology (unless they are
> excavated in the warm middle of Greenland)
Now You are Deadly wrong. Seals used to stamp documents are artifacts - if
you aren't aware that 'sigill' in Swedish has an English word 'seal', then
you aren't familiar with the British English language!
"noun 1 a device or substance used to join two things together or make
something impervious. 2 a piece of wax or lead with an individual design
stamped into it, attached to a document as a guarantee of authenticity. 3 a
confirmation or guarantee: a seal of approval. 4 an engraved device used for
stamping a seal"
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/seal_1?view=uk
Good Night!
Inger E
Peter Alaca
> "Peter Alaca" <P.A...@556.nn> skrev i meddelandet
> news:4468476c$0$10002$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
>> IE J wrote: news:aKv9g.57053$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net
>>
>>> Since when does anyone here try to make believe that Medieval Seals
>>> aren't artifacts and thus can't be discussed in sci.archaeology???
>>> [...]
>>
>> Seals are not artifacts but part of Natural History
>> And they are not archaeology (unless they are
>> excavated in the warm middle of Greenland)
>
> Now You are Deadly wrong. Seals used to stamp documents are artifacts
But that is cruelty to animals!
I wonder if Greenpeace is aware of that use.
> - if you aren't aware that 'sigill' in Swedish has an English word
> 'seal', then you aren't familiar with the British English language!
>
> "noun 1 a device or substance used to join two things together or make
> something impervious. 2 a piece of wax or lead with an individual
> design stamped into it, attached to a document as a guarantee of
> authenticity. 3 a confirmation or guarantee: a seal of approval. 4 an
> engraved device used for stamping a seal"
> http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/seal_1?view=uk
>
> Good Night!
Yes, good night Inger. Tomorrow it is early day again.
--
p.a.
Grethe
"Grethe" <grethe....@webspeed.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4467a2c6$0$27583$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
Well, Alan you don't have to answer my post about this.
I'll give up on this subject here and now and find my
information elsewhere. I see that there is a guy on sci.
archaology today, who mentions this misinterpretation
of pictures of crosses in churches. Maybe he'll come
forward here and tell what he knows about it!
Finito mysterious crosses! `:)
Kind regards
Uwe Müller
"Grethe" <grethe....@webspeed.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:446715a5$0$27575$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
>
> "Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:446707ae$0$47055$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...> >> news:d_C9g.57095$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
> snip >
> > --
> > History is not what it used to be.
> This is both history and archeaology:
> The talk about the Maltese cross has been very interesting.
> I have met some special crosses in stone reliefs, but I don't
> connect them to the Maltese cross. If you look at the stone
> relief with the cross in this link, then I've found a lot of such
> oblong reliefs by Danish village churches. I reckon they are
> some sort of consecration cross like the frescoe consecration
> circle upon the church walls? Or they look a little like some
> bishop's crozier? I haven't found any explanations yet, but
> I would appreciate any suggestion.
>
>
http://thyra2005.blogspot.com/2006/05/grnbk-church-mid-jutland-grnbk-church.
html
Hi Grethe,
my last excavation in our village church left me with a brick and a worked
stone which had been fitted with a semicircular groove, much like the right
hand part of your cross stone. I interpreted those two pieces as tops of
gravestones, a pair of those would hold a cross or memorial tablet with a
'stick' like base.
Could the cross have been added later? I'll have a look at the Brandenburg
churches anyhow.
The romanesque stonework is very similar to what we have here, only much
better preserved. Heads, fantasy beasts. And some are seemingly included in
the building as spoliae, not in their original position or function. Which
reminds me of my chequered stones.
Could these be parts of an older building?
About the dragon and the hand (the lower one): I once published a stylus in
form of a dragon, excavated in Luebeck from around 1200, with looked like
the slim brother of your stone dragon. This dragon, taken into a hand, would
have been for writing.
I only had little time, and less publishing space, for the Luebeck stylus,
but the dragon seemed to have been influenced by/borrowed from Scandinavia.
What is the role of the dragon in Danish mythology, is it only the evil
beast destroyed by St. George (post christian) or a benificial spirit animal
(maybe pre-Christian)?
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Grethe
"Uwe Müller" <uwemu...@go4more.de> skrev i en meddelelse
news:e4a6d9$ad7$1...@online.de...
(Uwe, I have deleted sci.archaeology.
I dare not go there again.)
That sounds similar to the ones I have seen. It occurs to me
that most of these stone reliefs with crosses are placed in the
wall in the porch. This implicates that the reliefs are earlier
than the porch and as such could have been grave stones.
I haven't made notes of , where those which I have pictures
of myself, were placed. I'll notice this the next time.
>
> Could the cross have been added later? I'll have a look at the Brandenburg
> churches anyhow.
>
The cross relief stones look so perfect in 'design'; as if
the whole carved pattern belongs together. I'd like to
hear what you find.
> The romanesque stonework is very similar to what we have here, only much
> better preserved. Heads, fantasy beasts. And some are seemingly included
> in
> the building as spoliae, not in their original position or function. Which
> reminds me of my chequered stones.
>
> Could these be parts of an older building?
>
Maybe they could have been part of a portal? Placed
upright by the side of the door? Many doors were
walled in the old churches, and not all portals are preserved.
> About the dragon and the hand (the lower one): I once published a stylus
> in
> form of a dragon, excavated in Luebeck from around 1200, with looked like
> the slim brother of your stone dragon. This dragon, taken into a hand,
> would
> have been for writing.
>
For writing? Well, then it isn't God's hand at all! `:)
> I only had little time, and less publishing space, for the Luebeck stylus,
> but the dragon seemed to have been influenced by/borrowed from
> Scandinavia.
> What is the role of the dragon in Danish mythology, is it only the evil
> beast destroyed by St. George (post christian) or a benificial spirit
> animal
> (maybe pre-Christian)?
>
I've just looked it up, because my memory is like the famous
sieve. The 'Danish' dragon is like other European dragons, it's
evil, or it is guarding treasures, it has a red-hot breath, it spews
fire, dragons are wise, they have a karfunkel (ruby?) in their
head, and if you could get hold of this precious stone, then you
could do alchemy, and this karfunkel would make its owner
invulnerable and make him able to fly. There are folk tales and
fairy tales about dragons like in other European countries. I
don't know if this variation is different though: A domineering
and awesome woman is in Denmark called a dragon (en drage)!
There is a Danish toy (English: kite) and a sailboat called a
dragon.
And then there is the wellknown Norse legend about Sigurd
Fafnersbane, and the vikings put dragon heads upon their
ships! `:)
In the legend about the ash, the world's tree 'Yggdrasil', there
is a snake, which is gnawing upon the root of the tree, and
when the root has been finally cut by the snake, then comes
Ragnarok. This snake is in some sources called a dragon.
There are over 100 frescoes in Danish churches with dragons,
and most of them are with St. George (St. Jorgen) and the
Dragon. The frescoe in Aarhus Cathedral is funny, there's
a kid dragon looking at Mum's fight with St. George from the
Dragon's Den in the corner. The big dragon is a rather fat one
with a big belly, and it looks like it's of a peaceful nature and
has completely given up already. St. George is very smartly
dressed in red and gold and with a huge beret. The heads of
the king and queen are peeping up from the top of the castle,
and the princess is waiting with her dog (greyhound?)
Heres the picture of this frescoe :
http://www.udstillinger.dnlb.dk/Fabeldyr/Fabeldyr/Drage05.html
> have fun
>
It was fun to read about the dragon!
Erilar has a very sweet little flying dragon on her website!
Cheers
Grethe
> Uwe Mueller
>
>
>
Peter Alaca
> (Uwe, I have deleted sci.archaeology.
> I dare not go there again.)
> [...]
You came in with a question in the middle of a
discussion on the definition of archaeology, and
left only 9 hours later.
What was so frightening?
--
p.a.
Grethe
"Peter Alaca" <P.A...@556.nn> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4468f4e2$0$97233$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
I'm sorry that I came in with my question in the
middle of a discussion, and furthermore it seemed
to be a subject for shm only, so this was double
fault from my side. Tom was astonished of the lack
of archeaology in my question, he appreciated
that I moved my question to shm, but he welcomed
me to sci arc again, if I had some archeaological
context. That's the whole story.
I dared not send more posts to sci.arc.in the middle
of the ongoing discussion. I don't think it would be
sensible of me.
Kind regards
Grethe
Peter Alaca
Tom was not astonished, but he tries to do some
necessary cleansing and then no exeption can be
made. I am sure you understand that.
--
p.a.
Grethe
"Peter Alaca" <P.A...@556.nn> skrev i en meddelelse
this to say: It won't be easy to solve. `:)
Grethe
>
Peter Alaca
> this to say: It won't be easy to solve. `:)
No, and it seems he already gave up.
He now posts delicious recipes in reply
to peope who think they can stretch
archaeology to almost everything they like.
--
p.a.
Dylan Sung
"Peter Alaca" <P.A...@556.nn> wrote in message
I don't know which was funnier, Inger's haughty reply or the picture of the
seal. Of course, Inger, again reveals her lack of knowledge about English.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/seal_2?view=uk
seal
noun. a fish-eating aquatic mammal with a streamlined body and feet
developed as flippers.
BTW, is this her OED source that she keeps on her 'desk' without the ISBN?
Dyl.
Peter Alaca
> "Peter Alaca" wrote
>> IE J wrote:
>>> "Peter Alaca" skrev
>>>> IE J wrote:
>>>>> Since when does anyone here try to make believe that Medieval
>>>>> Seals aren't artifacts and thus can't be discussed in
>>>>> sci.archaeology??? [...]
>>>> Seals are not artifacts but part of Natural History
>>>> And they are not archaeology (unless they are
>>>> excavated in the warm middle of Greenland)
>>>> Here is a banned Templar seal, allegedly on
>>>> his way to Sweden: http://tinyurl.com/lzz7q
>>> Now You are Deadly wrong. Seals used to stamp documents are
>>> artifacts
>> But that is cruelty to animals!
>> I wonder if Greenpeace is aware of that use.
>>> - if you aren't aware that 'sigill' in Swedish has an English word
>>> 'seal', then you aren't familiar with the British English language!
>>>
>>> "noun 1 a device or substance used to join two things together or
>>> make something impervious. 2 a piece of wax or lead with an
>>> individual design stamped into it, attached to a document as a
>>> guarantee of authenticity. 3 a confirmation or guarantee: a seal of
>>> approval. 4 an engraved device used for stamping a seal"
>>> http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/seal_1?view=uk
>>>
>>> Good Night!
>> Yes, good night Inger. Tomorrow it is early day again.
> I don't know which was funnier, Inger's haughty reply or the picture
> of the seal. Of course, Inger, again reveals her lack of knowledge
> about English.
>
> http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/seal_2?view=uk
>
> seal
> noun. a fish-eating aquatic mammal with a streamlined body and feet
> developed as flippers.
She simply ignores everything which doesn't fit her
concepts and she lacks every sense of humor.
>
> BTW, is this her OED source that she keeps on her 'desk' without the
> ISBN?
>
I am not sure the picture was that funny. Very recently
the use if that kind of transmitters is abandoned because
one of the seals was found dead. But what is the point if
seals are, according to Inger, still used to stamp documents?
And I guess that antenna makes a good grip.
It is a honour to receive a 'Deadly wrong' with a
capital 'd' from Inger.
--
p.a.
Dylan Sung
"Peter Alaca" <P.A...@556.nn> wrote in message
I am sorry for the furry animal then. It is shameful what such poor animal
do for someone's misguided forrays into reasearch.
> seals are, according to Inger, still used to stamp documents?
Terribly impractical. four or five hundred pound seals aren't something
you'd want to lug about in your pocket. Those Knight Templar people could,
perhaps, having had all that training and getting used to wearing of the
armour.
As I recall, King Henry VIII was very proud of his legs, and in full armour,
he was probably a sight. The fact that knights had spindly legs but much
upper body strength is missed. Henry was a real man with shapely calves,
apparently. So, in all, seals could be carried around if the Templars were
on horseback due to their impressive upper body strength.
> And I guess that antenna makes a good grip.
I wonder how it was attached - superglue?
"Sigills" as Inger refers to has a English cognate sigil, plural sigils, of
which marks used for arcane practices, such as pentagrams, or emblems all of
which are included in the wider scope of its meaning. Whether a cross is a
sigil, in that sense depends on its intended use.
>
> It is a honour to receive a 'Deadly wrong' with a capital 'd' from Inger.
>
The last time I saw the word 'deadly wrong' was from her friend, grapheus
when he unashamedly admitting to real life stalking of Franz Gnaedinger.
Perhaps, like grapheus she is stalking you as well as the abuse, and
threats. You ought to report her to the Data Inspeksionen Polizei.
Dyl.
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
P.A...@556.nn (Peter Alaca) wrote:
> But what is the point if
> seals are, according to Inger, still used to stamp documents?
Actually the very pun was used in a 19th century childrens' book
(E. Nesbit IIRC) where someone was stamped by the "Great Seal of
England).
Ken Young
Uwe Müller
(The bark is worse than the bite)
What kind of stylus would you need to write on stone tablets? It looks a
little like the hands of monks/venerated bishops/holy church fathers being
depicted while writing with a stylus. But I fear the pictures are not really
that acurate on how an artefact was actually handled.
>
> > I only had little time, and less publishing space, for the Luebeck
stylus,
> > but the dragon seemed to have been influenced by/borrowed from
> > Scandinavia.
> > What is the role of the dragon in Danish mythology, is it only the evil
> > beast destroyed by St. George (post christian) or a benificial spirit
> > animal
> > (maybe pre-Christian)?
> >
>
> I've just looked it up, because my memory is like the famous
> sieve. The 'Danish' dragon is like other European dragons, it's
> evil, or it is guarding treasures, it has a red-hot breath, it spews
> fire, dragons are wise, they have a karfunkel (ruby?) in their
> head, and if you could get hold of this precious stone, then you
> could do alchemy, and this karfunkel would make its owner
> invulnerable and make him able to fly. There are folk tales and
> fairy tales about dragons like in other European countries. I
> don't know if this variation is different though: A domineering
> and awesome woman is in Denmark called a dragon (en drage)!
>
Same here. Except that I don't know any German stories about wise and
friendly or helpful dragons. But the dragon seemed to have some connection
to writing, I have found a silver book clasps with a similar kind of dragon
on it (it's not been properly cleaned yet, so I don't really know).
> There is a Danish toy (English: kite) and a sailboat called a
> dragon.
>
> And then there is the wellknown Norse legend about Sigurd
> Fafnersbane, and the vikings put dragon heads upon their
> ships! `:)
To scare off bad influences at sea.
>
> In the legend about the ash, the world's tree 'Yggdrasil', there
> is a snake, which is gnawing upon the root of the tree, and
> when the root has been finally cut by the snake, then comes
> Ragnarok. This snake is in some sources called a dragon.
>
> There are over 100 frescoes in Danish churches with dragons,
> and most of them are with St. George (St. Jorgen) and the
> Dragon. The frescoe in Aarhus Cathedral is funny, there's
> a kid dragon looking at Mum's fight with St. George from the
> Dragon's Den in the corner. The big dragon is a rather fat one
> with a big belly, and it looks like it's of a peaceful nature and
> has completely given up already. St. George is very smartly
> dressed in red and gold and with a huge beret. The heads of
> the king and queen are peeping up from the top of the castle,
> and the princess is waiting with her dog (greyhound?)
>
> Heres the picture of this frescoe :
> http://www.udstillinger.dnlb.dk/Fabeldyr/Fabeldyr/Drage05.html
Where is Greenpeace if you need them?
>
>
> > have fun
> >
> It was fun to read about the dragon!
>
> Erilar has a very sweet little flying dragon on her website!
There is one story about a dragon from Swabia. People must have discovered
some dinosaur bones, and thought they had chanced upon a dragon layer. The
story grew with the telling, and it is now a well known folk tale. Seven
Swabians carrying a big spear (one for the seven of them) and being chased
off by a rabbit, which they took to be the dragon.
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Eric Stevens
There is quite a good argument that ties much of the world-wide dragon
mythology back to an astronomically verified (i.e. the theory is
accepted) period between 3000 and 5000 years BP when the earth was
subject to a succesion of much more intensive meteoric bombardment
than in the last 2000 years.
Eric Stevens
Grethe
>
> (The bark is worse than the bite)
>
(snip)
About the dragon and the hand (the lower one): I once published a stylus
> in form of a dragon, excavated in Luebeck from around 1200, with looked
> like the slim brother of your stone dragon. This dragon, taken into a
> hand,
> would have been for writing.
>> >
>> For writing? Well, then it isn't God's hand at all! `:)
>
> What kind of stylus would you need to write on stone tablets? It looks a
> little like the hands of monks/venerated bishops/holy church fathers being
> depicted while writing with a stylus. But I fear the pictures are not
> really
> that acurate on how an artefact was actually handled.
>
On stone tablets? Hammer and chisel. I'll notice the pictures
of this dragon stylus you mention hereafter!
I've got many different stone reliefs from churches in my photo
archive, but I haven't looked so closely on all the details yet.
I haven't had the time for it. I can collect the dragons later.
>> > I only had little time, and less publishing space, for the Luebeck
> stylus, but the dragon seemed to have been influenced by/borrowed from
>> > Scandinavia. What is the role of the dragon in Danish mythology, is it
>> > only the evil beast destroyed by St. George (post christian) or a
>> > benificial spirit
>> > animal (maybe pre-Christian)?
>> >
>>
>> I've just looked it up, because my memory is like the famous
>> sieve. The 'Danish' dragon is like other European dragons, it's
>> evil, or it is guarding treasures, it has a red-hot breath, it spews
>> fire, dragons are wise, they have a karfunkel (ruby?) in their
>> head, and if you could get hold of this precious stone, then you
>> could do alchemy, and this karfunkel would make its owner
>> invulnerable and make him able to fly. There are folk tales and
>> fairy tales about dragons like in other European countries. I
>> don't know if this variation is different though: A domineering
>> and awesome woman is in Denmark called a dragon (en drage)!
>>
>
> Same here. Except that I don't know any German stories about wise and
> friendly or helpful dragons. But the dragon seemed to have some connection
> to writing, I have found a silver book clasps with a similar kind of
> dragon
> on it (it's not been properly cleaned yet, so I don't really know).
>
Sounds great. Where do you find such things? Was it on
an excavation in Germany?
I've got a silver dragon broche, but it's only a replica of
a dragon jewelry, found archeaologically `:) by Roskilde.
(a museum jewelry). It's such magnificent design.
(snip)
>> And then there is the wellknown Norse legend about Sigurd
>> Fafnersbane, and the vikings put dragon heads upon their
>> ships! `:)
>
> To scare off bad influences at sea.
>>
'Faith can remove mountains' - and waves too it seems! `:)
(snip)
>>
>> There are over 100 frescoes in Danish churches with dragons,
>> and most of them are with St. George (St. Jorgen) and the
>> Dragon. The frescoe in Aarhus Cathedral is funny, there's
>> a kid dragon looking at Mum's fight with St. George from the
>> Dragon's Den in the corner. The big dragon is a rather fat one
>> with a big belly, and it looks like it's of a peaceful nature and
>> has completely given up already. St. George is very smartly
>> dressed in red and gold and with a huge beret. The heads of
>> the king and queen are peeping up from the top of the castle,
>> and the princess is waiting with her dog (greyhound?)
>>
>> Heres the picture of this frescoe :
>> http://www.udstillinger.dnlb.dk/Fabeldyr/Fabeldyr/Drage05.html
>
> Where is Greenpeace if you need them?
>
Yes, that poor helpless dragon with a little kid, soon
becoming an orphant , sniff, sniff! `:(
Uwe, a frescoe is that archaeology or history?
>
> There is one story about a dragon from Swabia. People must have discovered
> some dinosaur bones, and thought they had chanced upon a dragon layer. The
> story grew with the telling, and it is now a well known folk tale. Seven
> Swabians carrying a big spear (one for the seven of them) and being chased
> off by a rabbit, which they took to be the dragon.
>
That's funny!
People still see a puma in a forest somewhere in DK, is it
by Horsens? or in Thy? I don't remember of course, but
I'm going on holiday to Thy in June, and then I'll look out for it! `:)
Cheers
Grethe
> have fun
>
> Uwe Mueller
Uwe Müller
>
> "Uwe Müller" <uwemu...@go4more.de> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:e4h20f$gfv$1...@online.de...
> >
> > "Grethe" <grethe....@webspeed.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:4468d22a$0$27592$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> >>
> >> "Uwe Müller" <uwemu...@go4more.de> skrev i en meddelelse
> >> news:e4a6d9$ad7$1...@online.de...
> >> >
> >> > "Grethe" <grethe....@webspeed.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >> > news:446715a5$0$27575$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> >> >>
> >> >> "Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
> >> >> news:446707ae$0$47055$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...
> >> >> > Alan Crozier wrote:
> >> >> >> "IE J" <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >> news:d_C9g.57095$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
> >> >
> snip >
It is from the castle I found in Meyenburg. Lots of interesting stuff there.
> I've got a silver dragon broche, but it's only a replica of
> a dragon jewelry, found archeaologically `:) by Roskilde.
> (a museum jewelry). It's such magnificent design.
>
> (snip)
>
> >> And then there is the wellknown Norse legend about Sigurd
> >> Fafnersbane, and the vikings put dragon heads upon their
> >> ships! `:)
> >
> > To scare off bad influences at sea.
> >>
> 'Faith can remove mountains' - and waves too it seems! `:)
Or was it bad breath?
>
> (snip)
> >>
> >> There are over 100 frescoes in Danish churches with dragons,
> >> and most of them are with St. George (St. Jorgen) and the
> >> Dragon. The frescoe in Aarhus Cathedral is funny, there's
> >> a kid dragon looking at Mum's fight with St. George from the
> >> Dragon's Den in the corner. The big dragon is a rather fat one
> >> with a big belly, and it looks like it's of a peaceful nature and
> >> has completely given up already. St. George is very smartly
> >> dressed in red and gold and with a huge beret. The heads of
> >> the king and queen are peeping up from the top of the castle,
> >> and the princess is waiting with her dog (greyhound?)
> >>
> >> Heres the picture of this frescoe :
> >> http://www.udstillinger.dnlb.dk/Fabeldyr/Fabeldyr/Drage05.html
> >
> > Where is Greenpeace if you need them?
> >
> Yes, that poor helpless dragon with a little kid, soon
> becoming an orphant , sniff, sniff! `:(
And very soon afterwards becoming extinct. Isn't it a shame?
>
> Uwe, a frescoe is that archaeology or history?
That depends on. Ususally it's art history. If it is discovered beneath
other sets of paint or paintings it might become building history or even
archaeology. If it fell from the wall and was discovered in an excavation
afterwards it would be archaeology.
There was a story about a guy cleaning and refreshing romanesque church
frescoes in Northern Germany in the 50ies. Upon closer examination of some
of the stuff he did, weird details, like turkeys, were discovered (don't
believe all of the frescoes presented today are original). So the project he
had been working at the time, Marienkirche in Luebeck, was stopped, and the
remains of the romanesque frescoes were cleared away together with his
'contibutions'.
Was that plain foolishness (and if yes, who was the foolish party?),
criminal, a practical joke, or just someone taking the chance to get rid of
those romanesque frescoes (the fashion in church painting in the North is
pure whitewash these days)?
[take a sip of coffee, put down the cup]
20 years later the medieval Holy Ghost hospital was restored to its medieval
splendour, including what was left of the frescoes on the ceilings. This
building had been used for the Luebeck christmas fair for a long time, and
that custom was picked up after the restoration. By chance (?) the stall
baking fresh waffles was placed underneath the best part of the frescoes,
and the medieval paintings were covered in hot, fatty fumes from the waffle
irons.
[calm down, take another sip of coffee, put down the cup]
Another 20 years later (well, nearly) a big medieval buiding complex was
pulled down in favour of a shopping mall (built by a British company).
Before the destruction some research was done on the building (and the
plots) discovering the rooms of the earliest secular guild in Luebeck, the
Zirkelgesellschaft. Their rooms had been painted as well, so in one shop
there was a bit of old medieval brick wall with remains of an early 14th c.
frescoe presented in the shop window. Glaring light from a couple of
spotlights and employees trying to arrange the goods (it was a hifi dealer)
in the 15'' space in front of the murals, made an end to these.
Carelessness, foolishness, criminal neglect? Archaeology, history, art
history? There are lots of questions you can put to a fresco, and
accordingly, there are a lot of answers, some from this field of knowledge
and some from that. It all depends on the context.
> >
> > There is one story about a dragon from Swabia. People must have
discovered
> > some dinosaur bones, and thought they had chanced upon a dragon layer.
The
> > story grew with the telling, and it is now a well known folk tale. Seven
> > Swabians carrying a big spear (one for the seven of them) and being
chased
> > off by a rabbit, which they took to be the dragon.
> >
> That's funny!
> People still see a puma in a forest somewhere in DK, is it
> by Horsens? or in Thy? I don't remember of course, but
> I'm going on holiday to Thy in June, and then I'll look out for it! `:)
Just don't get too near.
have fun
Uwe Mueller
eller
>
>
Peter Alaca
> People still see a puma in a forest somewhere in DK, is it
> by Horsens? or in Thy? I don't remember of course, but
> I'm going on holiday to Thy in June, and then I'll look out for it!
> `:)
Last year a puma was 'seen' on the Veluwe.
The area was sealed off and a big hunt started
with the help of a police force and army helicopters.
After protests the search was taken over by a team
more used to handling animals and without the
intend to kill. After some more week still no sign
of a puma and the search was stopped.
Some years ago a similar case with the so called
'Waasland Wolf' in Belgium. And I remember a
Black Panther somewhere in England.
Always funny to watch the panic, while almost
nobody cares about all that dangerous dogs.
btw. Did you know that more people are killed
by donkeys then by dogs?
--
p.a.
Andrew Chaplin
I imagine it varies by jurisdiction. Are those donkeys behind the
wheels of motor vehicles? :^)
We occasionally have puma sightings, but then this is north-eastern
North America, and we would like to see F. concolor return.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Grethe
"Peter Alaca" <P.A...@556.nn> skrev i en meddelelse
news:44717819$0$76997$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
They have such soft, friendly eyes, those little
woolen donkeys, but I guess they might give
their owner a fatal kick after a hard days' work,
where he has put far too much weight upon their
little worn-out back.
Grethe
Grethe
>
> "Grethe" <grethe....@webspeed.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:446e10a9$0$27593$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
>>
>> "Uwe Müller" <uwemu...@go4more.de> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:e4h20f$gfv$1...@online.de...
(snippage)
. Except that I don't know any German stories about wise and
>> > friendly or helpful dragons. But the dragon seemed to have some
> connection
>> > to writing, I have found a silver book clasps with a similar kind of
>> > dragon
>> > on it (it's not been properly cleaned yet, so I don't really know).
>> >
>> Sounds great. Where do you find such things? Was it on
>> an excavation in Germany?
>
> It is from the castle I found in Meyenburg. Lots of interesting stuff
> there.
>
You found a castle! Whauw! There must really be lots
of material to work with in a castle site.
>> (snip)
>>
>> >> And then there is the wellknown Norse legend about Sigurd
>> >> Fafnersbane, and the vikings put dragon heads upon their
>> >> ships! `:)
>> >
>> > To scare off bad influences at sea.
>> >>
>> 'Faith can remove mountains' - and waves too it seems! `:)
>
> Or was it bad breath?
Good that the rowers were sitting back to back, or
else they had fainted before reaching the coast of England.
Wonder if they ever got seasick, those vikings.
>> (snip)
>> >>
>> >> There are over 100 frescoes in Danish churches with dragons,
>> >> and most of them are with St. George (St. Jorgen) and the
>> >> Dragon. The frescoe in Aarhus Cathedral is funny, there's
>> >> a kid dragon looking at Mum's fight with St. George from the
>> >> Dragon's Den in the corner. The big dragon is a rather fat one
>> >> with a big belly, and it looks like it's of a peaceful nature and
>> >> has completely given up already. St. George is very smartly
>> >> dressed in red and gold and with a huge beret. The heads of
>> >> the king and queen are peeping up from the top of the castle,
>> >> and the princess is waiting with her dog (greyhound?)
>> >>
>> >> Heres the picture of this frescoe :
>> >> http://www.udstillinger.dnlb.dk/Fabeldyr/Fabeldyr/Drage05.html
>> >
>> > Where is Greenpeace if you need them?
>> >
>> Yes, that poor helpless dragon with a little kid, soon
>> becoming an orphant , sniff, sniff! `:(
>
> And very soon afterwards becoming extinct. Isn't it a shame?
>
I would like to see a real dragon. This Nessie in Loch Ness,
maybe she's a dragon. 'Not many people know that'! as Michael
Caine says! `:)
>> Uwe, a frescoe is that archaeology or history?
>
> That depends on. Ususally it's art history. If it is discovered beneath
> other sets of paint or paintings it might become building history or even
> archaeology. If it fell from the wall and was discovered in an excavation
> afterwards it would be archaeology.
Often the frescoes are found under the white chalk,
there was a period (I'm mostly guessing now, cant
remember it clearly) in which people suddenly grew
prude and wouldn't look at those 'offending' pictures
- or maybe it was the priests, who judged the drawings
blasphemic.
I imagine that they are extremely difficult and time-concuming
to restore. A lot of patience is needed here too. There are
problems today with the frescoes in our churches, because
they are influenced by chemicals in the air; it must be all
those pig-farms! - and if we do not take care of them
now, then they will dissolve and disappear. It's sad.
>
> There was a story about a guy cleaning and refreshing romanesque church
> frescoes in Northern Germany in the 50ies. Upon closer examination of some
> of the stuff he did, weird details, like turkeys, were discovered (don't
> believe all of the frescoes presented today are original). So the project
> he
> had been working at the time, Marienkirche in Luebeck, was stopped, and
> the
> remains of the romanesque frescoes were cleared away together with his
> 'contibutions'.
>
The works on all frescoes in churches are organized from
the National Museum, and every little detail and colour is being
studied and measured and drawn, before they restore upon
the wall. I don't know if something like this about the guy and the
turkeys can happen in little Denmark! `:)
> Was that plain foolishness (and if yes, who was the foolish party?),
> criminal, a practical joke, or just someone taking the chance to get rid
> of
> those romanesque frescoes (the fashion in church painting in the North is
> pure whitewash these days)?
>
Maybe he was English, they love practical jokes!
Or maybe he was American , they love turkeys! `:)
> [take a sip of coffee, put down the cup]
>
[black coffee here, cheers! ]
> 20 years later the medieval Holy Ghost hospital was restored to its
> medieval
> splendour, including what was left of the frescoes on the ceilings. This
> building had been used for the Luebeck christmas fair for a long time, and
> that custom was picked up after the restoration. By chance (?) the stall
> baking fresh waffles was placed underneath the best part of the frescoes,
> and the medieval paintings were covered in hot, fatty fumes from the
> waffle
> irons.
>
Rather a rough treatment for fragile paintings.
They began to dissolve I suppose.
> [calm down, take another sip of coffee, put down the cup]
>
[eating a little rum cake for the coffee]
> Another 20 years later (well, nearly) a big medieval buiding complex was
> pulled down in favour of a shopping mall (built by a British company).
How rude! `:(
> Before the destruction some research was done on the building (and the
> plots) discovering the rooms of the earliest secular guild in Luebeck, the
> Zirkelgesellschaft. Their rooms had been painted as well, so in one shop
> there was a bit of old medieval brick wall with remains of an early 14th
> c.
> frescoe presented in the shop window. Glaring light from a couple of
> spotlights and employees trying to arrange the goods (it was a hifi
> dealer)
> in the 15'' space in front of the murals, made an end to these.
>
I don't want to hear anymore! It must because there is an
abundance of medieval buildings and frescoes and so on.
> Carelessness, foolishness, criminal neglect? Archaeology, history, art
> history? There are lots of questions you can put to a fresco, and
> accordingly, there are a lot of answers, some from this field of knowledge
> and some from that. It all depends on the context.
>
I reckon that there are some fields in archaeology, history and
art history, where the dividing lines can be a little blur, and this
is often confusing me, because I don't know enough about it.
I have tried to find out what's what, but I'm not at all sure about
anything - yet. The only thing I know is that I don't know! `:)
>> >
>> > There is one story about a dragon from Swabia. People must have
> discovered
>> > some dinosaur bones, and thought they had chanced upon a dragon layer.
> The
>> > story grew with the telling, and it is now a well known folk tale.
>> > Seven
>> > Swabians carrying a big spear (one for the seven of them) and being
> chased
>> > off by a rabbit, which they took to be the dragon.
>> >
>> That's funny!
>> People still see a puma in a forest somewhere in DK, is it
>> by Horsens? or in Thy? I don't remember of course, but
>> I'm going on holiday to Thy in June, and then I'll look out for it! `:)
>
> Just don't get too near.
>
I love cats, but maybe this one is too big.
It might be just a fat peaceful domestic cat!
>
Thank you for your answer, Uwe.
Uwe Müller
They'd never get seasick, because they would not give away anything, once
they had it secure. But they were made to sit with their backs to the dragon
head, because other wise that would get sick or faint.
Only because they were too poor to make their dreams come true. They had
planned to construct a big road crossing in the center of Luebeck, a 6 lane
road and a 4 lane one. So they had the houses (medieval buildings) pulled
down on the way from the train station to the market place, but were broke
before they could construct the road from the northern to the southern city
gate.
>
> > Carelessness, foolishness, criminal neglect? Archaeology, history, art
> > history? There are lots of questions you can put to a fresco, and
> > accordingly, there are a lot of answers, some from this field of
knowledge
> > and some from that. It all depends on the context.
> >
> I reckon that there are some fields in archaeology, history and
> art history, where the dividing lines can be a little blur, and this
> is often confusing me, because I don't know enough about it.
> I have tried to find out what's what, but I'm not at all sure about
> anything - yet. The only thing I know is that I don't know! `:)
That is a good starter. Many people take a long time to discover that. Most
people feel, they know everything there is to know when they leave
university. And they are in for a big surprise.
>
> >> >
> >> > There is one story about a dragon from Swabia. People must have
> > discovered
> >> > some dinosaur bones, and thought they had chanced upon a dragon
layer.
> > The
> >> > story grew with the telling, and it is now a well known folk tale.
> >> > Seven
> >> > Swabians carrying a big spear (one for the seven of them) and being
> > chased
> >> > off by a rabbit, which they took to be the dragon.
> >> >
> >> That's funny!
> >> People still see a puma in a forest somewhere in DK, is it
> >> by Horsens? or in Thy? I don't remember of course, but
> >> I'm going on holiday to Thy in June, and then I'll look out for it! `:)
> >
> > Just don't get too near.
> >
> I love cats, but maybe this one is too big.
> It might be just a fat peaceful domestic cat!
>
Once riding on a public bus in Berlin, I looked out of the window to see a
big puma lying on the side walk in the sun. It was kept on a chain, like a
dog on a leash, and seemed to enjoy the sun. But the chain was so thin, that
I had to look twice before I noticed it. I swore off the alc' for at least a
day or two at the time.
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Grethe
>
> "Grethe" <grethe....@webspeed.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:44720d43$0$27591$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
>>
>> "Uwe Müller" <uwemu...@go4more.de> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:e4rl1c$dii$1...@online.de...
>> >
>> > "Grethe" <grethe....@webspeed.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> > news:446e10a9$0$27593$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
>> >>
>> >> "Uwe Müller" <uwemu...@go4more.de> skrev i en meddelelse
>> >> news:e4h20f$gfv$1...@online.de...
>>
>(snippage)
>
>
(snip)
> >>
>> >> And then there is the wellknown Norse legend about Sigurd
>> >>Fafnersbane, and the vikings put dragon heads upon their
>> >>ships! `:)
>> >> >
>> >> > To scare off bad influences at sea.
>> >> >>
>> >> 'Faith can remove mountains' - and waves too it seems! `:)
>> >
>> > Or was it bad breath?
>>
>> Good that the rowers were sitting back to back, or
>> else they had fainted before reaching the coast of England.
>> Wonder if they ever got seasick, those vikings.
>
> They'd never get seasick, because they would not give away anything, once
> they had it secure. But they were made to sit with their backs to the
> dragon
> head, because other wise that would get sick or faint.
>
>> >> (snip Dragon)
>>
(snippage)
>> > Carelessness, foolishness, criminal neglect? Archaeology, history, art
>> > history? There are lots of questions you can put to a fresco, and
>> > accordingly, there are a lot of answers, some from this field of
> knowledge >> > and some from that. It all depends on the context.
>> >
>> I reckon that there are some fields in archaeology, history and
>> art history, where the dividing lines can be a little blur, and this
>> is often confusing me, because I don't know enough about it.
>> I have tried to find out what's what, but I'm not at all sure about
>> anything - yet. The only thing I know is that I don't know! `:)
>
> That is a good starter. Many people take a long time to discover that.
> Most
> people feel, they know everything there is to know when they leave
> university. And they are in for a big surprise.
>
So am I all the time here! `:)
>> >> >
>> > There is one story about a dragon from Swabia. People must have
>> > discovered some dinosaur bones, and thought they had chanced upon a
>> > dragon layer.
>> > The story grew with the telling, and it is now a well known folk tale.
>> >> > Seven Swabians carrying a big spear (one for the seven of them) and
>> >> > being chased off by a rabbit, which they took to be the dragon.
>> >> >
>> >> That's funny!
>> >> People still see a puma in a forest somewhere in DK, is it
>> >> by Horsens? or in Thy? I don't remember of course, but
>> >> I'm going on holiday to Thy in June, and then I'll look out for it!
>> >> `:)
>> >
>> > Just don't get too near.
>> >
>> I love cats, but maybe this one is too big.
>> It might be just a fat peaceful domestic cat!
>>
> Once riding on a public bus in Berlin, I looked out of the window to see a
> big puma lying on the side walk in the sun.
I'm envious!.
It was kept on a chain, like a
> dog on a leash, and seemed to enjoy the sun. But the chain was so thin,
> that
> I had to look twice before I noticed it. I swore off the alc' for at least
> a
> day or two at the time.
>
Why didn't you get off the bus and said hello to the puma? `:)
> have fun
>
> Uwe Mueller
>
On TV today they told that the first brown bear in Germany
for 170 years crossed the border from Austria to Bavaria
in the week-end. Since then he has stuffed himself with
11 sheep, four pigeons and seven chickens, and before he
overeats he'll be shot, in spite of lots of protests.
Couldn't they just shooee him back to Austria that poor bear? `:)
Grethe