Draw -plates
celia
The earliest written evidence that i have come across is in
De Diversis Artibus by Theophilus c. 1122. I hope to get hold
of a translation soon.
Medieval goldsmiths would make there own gold and silver sheet
from ingots by hammering. The sheets could be cut into strips
and the strips either twisted and hammered to make wire
or put through a draw plate. The wire could be made finer
by pulling through progressively smaller holes.
the holes need not be circular, they could be any simple shape
such as D shaped or square. Draw plates could also
be used for changing the profile of chains.
Enjoy this delightfully chaotic image of a goldsmiths workshop
complete with rampaging cats and dogs and a cockeral
treading a hen.
http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/rp/z/rp-p-ob-963.z?leftcoulisse
A simple draw plate is being used in the left foreground.
The young man is holding it down by treading on it and pulling
the wire upwards with his draw tongs.
This more ordered image of a workshop is in many ways little
different from a modern one.
http://tle.northwestern.edu/museum/catalog/cgi/search.cgi?DB=1&QUERY=1985.2.202®ION=IDNUMBER&
The draw plate here is being pulled through with the tongs attached
in such a way as leverage can be used. The kiln used
for softening the wire by annealing can be seen on the right
and above the head of the lad drawing the wire, stored in
loops of leather you can see a selection of draw plates
with different shaped holes.
Any more information on draw-plates or images gratefully received.
celia
Paul J Gans
Draw-plates are very hard to pin down. There evidently is
some evidence of circular wire being pulled through draw
plates back around the mid-11th centry. This would be
iron wire, by the way -- a much harder material to draw.
I would not be surprised to learn that the Romans used
this technology.
---- Paul J. Gans
jackli...@earthlink.net
They seem to have had something along those lines, the first step seems
to using the round or partially round groove to smooth out the wire.
Wire Rope Past, Present and Future
By H. M. WORCESTER JR.
HISTOROYF MANUFACTURE
H ISTORICAL record and research tell us that
a form of wire-making dates back to around
5000 B.C. This early wire was not like the
wire we have today, as it was made by hammering
out thin sheets of copper or gold and shearing off
narrow strips. About 4100 years later, it was found
that the usefulness of these strips could be increased
by pulling them through a half-round, or at least a
partially rounded, notch or groove in some hard material
to remove the sharp edges.
The assembling of several wires into one strand to
make a rope dates back to around 800 B.C. A bronze
tope of this period was unearthed at Nineveh in Asia
and is now in the British Museum. This rope (or
strand) consists of parallel wires bound together at
intervals so that they could be used as one unit.
The development of a helical (twisted) rope,
formed of helical strands, dates back to about 500
B.C., according to the evidence given by a rope believed
to have been made at this time, which was uncovered
in the ruins of Pompeii. This rope consists
of three strands twisted together; each strand, in turn,
consisting of several bronze wires twisted together.
A 15 foot piece of this rope is now in the Naples
Museum.
Many years then elapsed before the records indicate
any further developments. Sometime between
the sixth and tenth centuries A.D. a method of drawn
g soft square rods through round holes in iron
drawplates to form wire was developed. This drawing,
however, was done by hand and was a very
slow and tedious process. A mechanical method of
drawing wire was not developed until 1351. Still later
(A.D. 1600), a method of drawing hard steel wire
was developed in Germany, although it was still done
from square rods, sheared from hammered or rolled
sheets. In 1728 a Frenchman, by the name of Fleuer,
is said to have made round rods by the use of
grooved rolls, and thereby materially aided the drawing
of wire.
<more>
http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/120/01/Worcester.pdf
add
better description of Pompeii cable
"A piece of bronze wire rope was found at Pompeii . The piece is nearly
15 feet long and about 3/8" in diameter. It consists of three strands
laid in a spiral, each strand being made of 15 wires twisted together."
William Black
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:e9os6d$ond$2...@reader2.panix.com...
> Draw-plates are very hard to pin down. There evidently is
> some evidence of circular wire being pulled through draw
> plates back around the mid-11th centry. This would be
> iron wire, by the way -- a much harder material to draw.
>
> I would not be surprised to learn that the Romans used
> this technology.
And here was I thinking that drawn wire was one of the three great medieval
inventions...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
jackli...@earthlink.net
Using drawn wire roman I have the following sites:
http://www.bayside-wire-designs.com/page/page/1568229.htm
The earliest reference to drawn wire is in the 8th century in France
and the first commercial wire operation was in 1270 AD in France.
During the Medieval period, Knights brought wire back to England to
make chains and mail for their armor. Gold and silver wire were drawn
in France and transported back to England. The earliest mention of wire
production in England was 1465. During this time, wire-wrapping was
limited to fastening crucifixes and other religious symbols to lanyards
and chains.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/0508/ehrenreich-0508.html
Far from Barbaric: Re-assessing the
Sophistication of Merovingian Metalworking
ROBERT M. EHRENREICH, ELIZABETH HAMILTON, AND SAMUEL K. NASH
"The additional medieval artifacts sampled consisted of one link from a
piece of chain mail and three blades. The link of chain mail
(1924.02.0295) revealed a purely ferritic structure with evidence of
excessive cold-working (Figure 9). Its hardness measured 196 Hv, and it
could have been made from drawn iron wire. Its phosphorus concentration
was 0.130%, which is interesting because phosphoric iron was
preferentially used for drawing harpsichord wire during the 17th and
18th centuries, since the higher phosphorus content would increase
hardness while easing production.3 This link of chain mail might
therefore suggest that the preferential use of phosphoric material for
drawing wire predated the 17th century."
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=28053
All mail shares this characteristic not just Roman mail. If the cost of
production was so high, why then did the segmentata get phased out and
and not the hamata? As I have said before in order to produce mail in
any quantity there needs to be a very large manufacturing
infrastructure. Let's break this down. The starting point for mail or
any other object made from metal is the mining of the raw material.
This material is then refined. For wire to be made the material has to
be refined to a very high degree. In fact some of the Roman links that
have been analyzed have been shown to be almost pure iron. Without this
degree of refining the material will be unable to be effectively drawn
into wire. And for those of you who think that wire drawing did not
come into being until the Middle Ages think again. The pieces of mail
that I have studied from before and after the Roman era are made from
links that are extremely uniform in size and shape. Without the ability
to draw wire it would not be possible to achieve this degree of
uniformity. Next in line are the people who manufacture the solid
links, those who make the riveted links, and those who actually create
the garments.
Tron
"celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> skrev i melding
news:1153428048....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I am gathering information on the medieval use of draw- plates.
> The earliest written evidence that i have come across is in
> De Diversis Artibus by Theophilus c. 1122. I hope to get hold
> of a translation soon.
A good many years ago the Danes found the entire tool chest of a smith in
one of their bogs.
Perhaps there is some info on the subject in DK?
Søren?
T
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>add
Thanks Jack. And a special thanks for the reference!
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:e9os6d$ond$2...@reader2.panix.com...
>> Draw-plates are very hard to pin down. There evidently is
>> some evidence of circular wire being pulled through draw
>> plates back around the mid-11th centry. This would be
>> iron wire, by the way -- a much harder material to draw.
>>
>> I would not be surprised to learn that the Romans used
>> this technology.
>And here was I thinking that drawn wire was one of the three great medieval
>inventions...
I'm fairly certain that the iron circles used for mail were made
of drawn wire which was then wrapped around a mandrel and slit
leaving cut circles.
The ends of these circles were then pounded flat and a hole
make in the flats. When the ring was incorporated in the
mail, a rivet was put through the hole.
I know that you knew all that.
But it was *very* labor intensive, which is why a decent suit
cost a fair bit.
Couldn't order from Hong Kong then... ;-)
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>http://www.bayside-wire-designs.com/page/page/1568229.htm
>http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/0508/ehrenreich-0508.html
>http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=28053
Thanks for this too.
These examples point out the difficulties in the history
of technology. Much is guesswork or deductions based on
weak or perhaps bad evidence.
I'd be willing to bet that the people who thought that no
wire was drawn in England are dead wrong. It is basically
impossible to keep something like that secret.
Consider, for example, the flying buttress. For centuries
there were no flying butresses. Then there was a sudden
demand (in the 1100s) for tall cathedrals. Tall walls
supporting roofs tend to get pushed outward.
The Romanesque style used thick walls to counteract that.
The new Gothic style demanded lots of open space for windows.
Thus some unknown genius invented the flying buttress.
Within a few years flying buttressess suddenly appeared in
all tall cathedrals under construction.
Deduction: written design specs were passed rapidly from
master mason to master mason.
Evidence for this: essentially none except for the facts
stated above.
So many problems, so little evidence...
---- Paul J. Gans
celia
Thanks from me too.
I have come across a reference to a draw plate being
found in a 7th c. smith's grave at Tattershall Thorpe
in Lincolnshire. It was found with other tools.
This suggests that the drawplate was being used in England
at this date.
The Domesday Book shows that in the 11th c.
this was royal land.
i haven't so far got any more information on the type
of draw-plate.
Celia
celia
this is the discussion on the 'Viking drawplate'
on the site given by Inger.
Comments appreciated.
Celia
celia
A good article on chain mail construction.
Amazing craftsmanship.
http://livinghistory.ie/downloads/armour/TMRS-Journal-1.pdf
Celia
Alan Crozier
news:WMOdneKnupG...@telenor.com...
Are you thinking of the Mästermyr find from Gotland (now Sweden)?
See
http://www.netlabs.net/~osan/Mastermyr/
http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/viking/verktyg-e.html
http://www.forntidateknik.z.se/IFT/MNTarb/2003/mastermyr%20fynd%20file.doc
Alan
--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden
Tron
"Alan Crozier" <name1...@telia.com> skrev i melding
news:ek_vg.10027$E02....@newsb.telia.net...
> "Tron" <tron...@frizurf.no> wrote in message
> news:WMOdneKnupG...@telenor.com...
>>
>> "celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> skrev i melding
>> news:1153428048....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >I am gathering information on the medieval use of draw- plates.
>> > The earliest written evidence that i have come across is in
>> > De Diversis Artibus by Theophilus c. 1122. I hope to get hold
>> > of a translation soon.
>>
>> A good many years ago the Danes found the entire tool chest of a smith
> in
>> one of their bogs.
>> Perhaps there is some info on the subject in DK?
>>
>> Søren?
>
>
> Are you thinking of the Mästermyr find from Gotland (now Sweden)?
>
Xactly - superb. Draw Plates and all.
T
Inger_Eleonora
Tron and others, do you have any picture or so from the full tool-set of a
Blacksmiths found in Staraja Ladoga?
Inger E
>
jackli...@earthlink.net
I would think that trying to hide a flying buttress would be a futile
effort while the origin of really good chain mail might be a family
secret. Like William Black's steel tools and clear glass and other
things imagined but not seen. The technology for really sharp tools
that kept their edge would be used in the high-end sword and dagger
industry while the lowly woodworker would have to hope he could find
such a treasure by chance.
I am reminded of a passage in a book I can't find right now but it
dealt with the Hellenistic scientistists who created the Antikythera
machine. A sixteenth century clock used an identical gearing for the
months, suggesting something written down did survive.
William Black
<jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1153480378....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> . The technology for really sharp tools
> that kept their edge would be used in the high-end sword and dagger
> industry while the lowly woodworker would have to hope he could find
> such a treasure by chance.
Again, that's unproven.
Very few 'ammunition quality' swords of known provenance exist (swords found
in a barrel in a river in Northern France don't count) so we just don't know
the quality was like.
We have a few swords that belonged to people of very high social status and
a lot of well rotted remains where you can't tell much at all.
The swords made for people of high social status display very high levels of
workmanship indeed, but what the 'man-at-arms in the street' used we're not
certain.
They're all far too valuable for us to grind them up to see what the steel
is like inside...
As fighting a major battle was a 'once in a generation' thing for people in
medieval times, and remember, no plate armour was made in England before
about 1600, I doubt that the sword cuttling industry was actually a major
economic or technology driver anyway.
jackli...@earthlink.net
One of the best arguments for the existence of drawing wire in one form
or another is the existence of very fine wire in archaeological sites
with confirmed dates. I just saw a quote that might bear on your search
"All over Britain, the art of making pottery on a wheel disappeared in
the early fifth century, and was not reintroduced for almost 300 years.
The potter's wheel is not an instrument of cultural identity. Rather,
it is a functional innovation that facilitates the rapid production of
thin-walled ceramics; and yet it disappeared from Britain."
http://blog.oup.com/oupblog/archaeology/index.html
http://phoenicia.org/dentstry.html
Has some teeth held cleverly in a "brace" by 24 gauge wire, ie .51 mm
This site requires access but looks interesting
JSTOR: Wire Drawing in Antiquity
Archaeological Notes WIRE DRAWING IN ANTIQUITY PLATES 69-70 The
extraordinary wire-making ability of the gold- smiths of remote
antiquity was first revealed ...
links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9114(197207)76%3A3%3C321%3AWDIA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Q
-
Vaughan Sanders
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e9qe73$knn$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
It is generally assumed that, during the fifteenth century, armour in
England was mainly imported from Italy and Flanders. It is also assumed that
little armour of quality was producedin England. However, his (Sir John
Howard) household accounts clearly state that the Duke was almost
exclusively purchasing armours from domestic craftsmen. While most of the
armour purchased in England consisted of brigandines and mail, at least one
significant commission of plate harness was recorded.
"1469:
My Lord of Norfolk} Item, in August following,
my master became surety for said lord to Thomas
Armerer of London, for 2 harnesses by my lords
desiring, for - 20 marks.50"
Jamie
Alan Crozier
news:uU1wg.10048$E02....@newsb.telia.net...
Google is your friend. The only site I could find was Dutch,
"Smeedgereedschap uit Staraja Ladoga, Rusland, midden 8e eeuw", the last
picture:
Tron and others
celia
times the information I'm after is on a JSTOR site that
I haven't got access to.
I'm coming across references to draw-plates and drawn wire
found in digs with a wide date range; details and pictures
are rare but there doesn't seem to be an obvious gap.
Some of them are like the bone one Inger gave the link to
and might not have been used for metal and certainly
weren't used for iron.
It seems illogical that smiths should get their wire from
the continent rather than importing the simple technology
needed to produce it in the sizes they wanted themselves.
Looking at the evidence I think that draw plates were used
in the early medieval period.
Coming to think of it, they didn't need to import draw-plates
they had the skill to make them and as I can show close family
links between english goldsmiths and the rest of europe
there's no reason why they wouldn't know about them.
I can give examples of english goldsmiths travelling and
working abroad and many of their materials were imported.
Why should this be a lost idea at a time when
goldsmithing skills reached new heights ?
Celia
Peter Alaca
Don't bother Alan. Almost a year ago I posted
a link to the same (now reorganised) website,
with the note that it is a scan from page 191 in
Graham-Campbell's "Cultural Atlas of the Viking
World", but Inger ignores someone elses posts.
I guess Inger is too old (or too "dyslextic") to learn.
--
p.a.
Alan Crozier
news:44c0f61f$1$62149$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
But I wish I had her photographic memory.
Alan
Peter Alaca
> "Peter Alaca" wrote
>> Alan Crozier wrote:
>>> "Inger_Eleonora" wrote
>>>> Tron and others, do you have any picture or so from the full
>>>> tool-set of a Blacksmiths found in Staraja Ladoga?
>>>
>>>
>>> Google is your friend. The only site I could find was Dutch,
>>> "Smeedgereedschap uit Staraja Ladoga, Rusland, midden 8e eeuw", the
>>> last picture:
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/h7a2h
>>>
>>> Tron and others
>> Don't bother Alan. Almost a year ago I posted
>> a link to the same (now reorganised) website,
>> with the note that it is a scan from page 191 in
>> Graham-Campbell's "Cultural Atlas of the Viking
>> World", but Inger ignores someone elses posts.
>> I guess Inger is too old (or too "dyslextic") to learn.
> But I wish I had her photographic memory.
Me too. My brain is much too small
for all those memories.
--
p.a.
jackli...@earthlink.net
The Staraya Ladoga set is in the St. Petersburg Hermitage and described
as "blacksmith's tools". Another site, also in the Hermitage was at
Gnezdovo, there are articles by the recent excavators but the internet
text is short, Veronika V. Murasheva, A. Golieva and O. Marfenina :
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/04/2006/hm4_2_154.html
Gnezdovo was a commercial and craft center which lay on the path
between Kiev and Novgorod. There were large metal working ateliers
here. The exhibition displays foundry articles and clay spoons used in
casting metal, as well as other equipment of smelters. Among the
exhibits are tools which were not seen earlier in the northern part of
Eastern Europe except for Staraya Ladoga - jeweler's tongs and dies.
Visitors can also see neck ornaments (grivna) and temporal rings, a
variety of pendants with filigree decoration, fibulae and half-moon
metal decorative articles (lunnitsa) with niello, as well as various
forms of stamped metal articles (blyashki) and a small pot.
and
Tamara Pushkina: The famous Gnezdovo Hoard: the treasure of the burial?
The documents of the archives versus the official scientific version.
Many researchers use information from Viking Period hoards when dealing
with the problems of the history of handicrafts and trade or of social
reconstruction and chronology. The Gnezdovo Hoard is one of the best
known Russian finds from this period. It is known not only in the
scientific literature in Russia, but has been exhibited internationally
and described in numerous catalogues. But incorrect information about
its contents and the date of discovery changes repeatedly from place to
place over the past 130 years. According to the first publication this
hoard consists of 106 objects: silver and bronze jewellery, coins and
fragments of a sword. Thorough analysis of 19th century documentation
in the archives of Smolensk and St Petersburg plus the study and
comparison of the treatment of every object from the find in the
Hermitage shows that what is known as the "Gnezdovo Hoard" is really a
mixed collection. The Smolensk bureaucrats mixed the objects from
cremation and inhumation graves with a real hoard in 1867. Thus it is
no longer possible to determine which coins belong to the hoard or to
the graves. This means that the famous "Gnezdovo-hoard" cannot
contribute to discussions of the chronology and other problems of the
Viking period in Russia.
jackli...@earthlink.net
Here's one I meant to add to the others, I took a break for lunch and
forgot it. This one comes with an email address.
169 Notes on the Wire Production During the Viking Age
Barbara Armbruster
CNRS - UMR 5608, Universite de Toulouse le Mirail, Maison de la
Recherche, 5, allées A. Machado,
F - 31058 Toulouse cedex, France; e-mail:
barbara.a...@univ-tlse2.fr
The paper deals with the production of precious metal wire during the
Viking Age in Northern
Europe. Filigree and granulation work are characteristic for Viking
gold and silver jewellery. The
goldsmithing workshops produced a high range of different types of
decorative wire. Drawplates
known from graves, settlements and hoards from Germany, Norway and
Russia are discussed. New
evidence for a drawplate is known recently from the Viking settlement
of Hedeby (Northern
Germany), one of the most important protourban settlements in northern
Europe. It's function in a
workshop is attested by residues of silver left in the holes of the
iron drawplate, detected by x-ray
analyses.
Hedeby was a centre of of commerce and exchange between the Viking
world and the limitrophic
regions from the ninth to the eleventh century AD. From this
extraordinary site many metal
artifacts and tools for metalworking, with great importance for the
investigation on early medieval
arts and crafts, were found. Tools like a drawplate, hammers, anvils,
tongues and others are
references for fine metalwork in general, used in the manufacture of
objects in gold, silver or
copper based alloys. Gold jewellery, fragments and preproducts indicate
the presence of a
goldsmithing workshop at the site.
http://www.geo.vu.nl/archaeometry/abstracts/metalgeneral.pdf
erilar
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar),
philologist, biblioholic medievalist
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
erilar
<name1...@telia.com> wrote:
> "Peter Alaca" <P.A...@jul.nn> wrote in message
> news:44c0f61f$1$62149$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
>>Almost a year ago I posted
> > a link to the same (now reorganised) website,
> > with the note that it is a scan from page 191 in
> > Graham-Campbell's "Cultural Atlas of the Viking
> > World", but Inger ignores someone elses posts.
> > I guess Inger is too old (or too "dyslextic") to learn.
>
>
> But I wish I had her photographic memory.
"Photographic" would imply some sort of accuracy, I would think.
celia
Neolithic silver plated copper tube !
I'd never have thought such a thing possible.
Thanks
Celia
Peter Alaca
news:1153503524.6...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com
> The Staraya Ladoga set is in the St. Petersburg Hermitage and
> described as "blacksmith's tools". Another site, also in the
> Hermitage was at Gnezdovo, there are articles by the recent
> excavators but the internet text is short, Veronika V. Murasheva, A.
> Golieva and O. Marfenina :
>
> http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/04/2006/hm4_2_154.html
> Gnezdovo was a commercial and craft center which lay on the path
> between Kiev and Novgorod. There were large metal working ateliers
> here. The exhibition displays foundry articles and clay spoons used in
> casting metal, as well as other equipment of smelters. Among the
> exhibits are tools which were not seen earlier in the northern part of
> Eastern Europe except for Staraya Ladoga - jeweler's tongs and dies.
> Visitors can also see neck ornaments (grivna) and temporal rings, a
> variety of pendants with filigree decoration, fibulae and half-moon
> metal decorative articles (lunnitsa) with niello, as well as various
> forms of stamped metal articles (blyashki) and a small pot.
Yes, and on
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_2_14.html
A hoard with a set of blacksmith's tools tells us
much about the production of metal items in
the 8th century, and this group also included a
bronze rod terminating in the head of a man
with small birds' heads turned towards it. Bone
carving, another major medieval craft, is mainly
represented by pieces dating from the 10th
century. As regards woodcarving, the earliest
examples from the Ladoga complex date as far
back as the 8th century, nearly two centuries
earlier from those from any other source. Tools
associated with the work of women - spinning
and weaving wool and linen - are also on
display, along with examples of silk and
woollen textiles and linen, and footwear.
>
> and
> [...]
--
p.a.
William Black
"Vaughan Sanders" <v...@jamie-san.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e9qqmc$iad$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
I've heard this described as someone in the trade 'selling on' imported
armour.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
'Written design specs' aren't really needed by engineers - for they
were engineers - to convey an idea like this. All that is needed is a
glimpse of a sketch or an example under the workings of the
construction.
There is a suspicion that 'rules of thumb' for constructing the
cathedrals were passed around as part of the so-called 'sacred
geometry' which is associated with so many of these buildings. I
suppose you could call these 'written design specs'.
>
>Evidence for this: essentially none except for the facts
>stated above.
>
>So many problems, so little evidence...
>
> ---- Paul J. Gans
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
><jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:1153480378....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
>> . The technology for really sharp tools
>> that kept their edge would be used in the high-end sword and dagger
>> industry while the lowly woodworker would have to hope he could find
>> such a treasure by chance.
>
>Again, that's unproven.
>
>Very few 'ammunition quality' swords of known provenance exist (swords found
>in a barrel in a river in Northern France don't count) so we just don't know
>the quality was like.
>
>We have a few swords that belonged to people of very high social status and
>a lot of well rotted remains where you can't tell much at all.
>
>The swords made for people of high social status display very high levels of
>workmanship indeed, but what the 'man-at-arms in the street' used we're not
>certain.
>
>They're all far too valuable for us to grind them up to see what the steel
>is like inside...
I presume that by 'grinding' you are referring to spark analysis. You
can now do much better than this by the use of a laser - see
http://www.laseranalysis.com/media/pdf/ApplicationsAndUseOfTheSpectrolaser.pdf
for an example of a commercial instrument.
This doesn't tell you anything about the metallurgical structure but
there are minimally invasive techniques which will. It is possible to
mold surface impressions of only a small polished and etched area (5mm
dia?) and coat it for later examination in a scanning electron
microscope. This will tell you as much about the metallurgy as if you
were examining the original.
>
>As fighting a major battle was a 'once in a generation' thing for people in
>medieval times, and remember, no plate armour was made in England before
>about 1600, I doubt that the sword cuttling industry was actually a major
>economic or technology driver anyway.
Umm ... http://www.nps.gov/colo/Jthanout/HisArmur.html
"King Henry VIII created the first royal armour workshop in England
in 1515 at Greenwich."
It would be surprising if armour was not being made in England even
before that date.
Eric Stevens
Paul J Gans
>A good article on chain mail construction.
>Amazing craftsmanship.
>http://livinghistory.ie/downloads/armour/TMRS-Journal-1.pdf
Thanks. That *is* interesting.
-- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>I would think that trying to hide a flying buttress would be a futile
>effort while the origin of really good chain mail might be a family
>secret.
Not over *that* period of time.
>Like William Black's steel tools and clear glass and other
>things imagined but not seen. The technology for really sharp tools
>that kept their edge would be used in the high-end sword and dagger
>industry while the lowly woodworker would have to hope he could find
>such a treasure by chance.
Yes, but armorers were not lowly carpenters.
> I am reminded of a passage in a book I can't find right now but it
>dealt with the Hellenistic scientistists who created the Antikythera
>machine. A sixteenth century clock used an identical gearing for the
>months, suggesting something written down did survive.
That's all in dispute, but in a way quite possible. It isn't
that something was lost. What happens is that often there is
no perceived need for a new invention. As a result the invention
disappears.
It is a bit like silly arguments over who discovered North America
(or wherever). The discovery has to have some sort of impact,
otherwise it is forgotten.
In the case of North America we *now* know that the Vikings were
here first. But nothing came of that discovery.
Hiero built a steam turbine back a long time ago. Folks looking
for new forms of mechanical power might have jumped on it and
we'd have had an entirely different history. They didn't and
we didn't.
Dealing with early mentions of devices that went nowhere is
another problem in doing the history of technology. Not that
there weren't enough already... ;-)
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>'Written design specs' aren't really needed by engineers - for they
>were engineers - to convey an idea like this. All that is needed is a
>glimpse of a sketch or an example under the workings of the
>construction.
Eric, we *know* that written (I should say "drawn") design
specs existed. Many have survived.
>There is a suspicion that 'rules of thumb' for constructing the
>cathedrals were passed around as part of the so-called 'sacred
>geometry' which is associated with so many of these buildings. I
>suppose you could call these 'written design specs'.
Nah. Geometry was used for layout since Euclid was a pup.
Still is, for that matter.
Look at it this way. There was basically no development
period for the new Gothic cathedrals. No smaller buildings
built and learned from. They just sprang into existance.
And most of them are built in the same way. They include
revolutionary vaulting, for example.
It isn't possible to credit the notion that the new vaulting
was simultaneously developed all over the place. It is far
more reasonable to assume that it was communicated from the
master mason who first used it to the others.
So I believe that they communicated with each other,
primarily in writing -- though the writing might easily
have been design drawings.
---- Paul J. Gans
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>Eric Stevens <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>'Written design specs' aren't really needed by engineers - for they
>>were engineers - to convey an idea like this. All that is needed is a
>>glimpse of a sketch or an example under the workings of the
>>construction.
>
>Eric, we *know* that written (I should say "drawn") design
>specs existed. Many have survived.
>
>>There is a suspicion that 'rules of thumb' for constructing the
>>cathedrals were passed around as part of the so-called 'sacred
>>geometry' which is associated with so many of these buildings. I
>>suppose you could call these 'written design specs'.
>
>Nah. Geometry was used for layout since Euclid was a pup.
>Still is, for that matter.
I guess 'sacred geometry' undoubtedly is geometry. However, not all
geometry fits the mold for 'sacred geometry'.
>
>Look at it this way. There was basically no development
>period for the new Gothic cathedrals. No smaller buildings
>built and learned from. They just sprang into existance.
>And most of them are built in the same way. They include
>revolutionary vaulting, for example.
>
>It isn't possible to credit the notion that the new vaulting
>was simultaneously developed all over the place. It is far
>more reasonable to assume that it was communicated from the
>master mason who first used it to the others.
I'm not arguing with you about that. I'm just questioning your thesis
that the communication was necessarily by written specifications.
>
>So I believe that they communicated with each other,
>primarily in writing -- though the writing might easily
>have been design drawings.
Are you suggesting that only one person was ever capable of working
out the details? That anyone who saw a cathedral or similar under
construction (or in a sketch) would need to have written instructions
before he could try to build one of his own? They didn't all have the
right recipe and several fell down during construction.
At least as interesting, to me, is the question of who financed their
construction and how did they manage it?
Eric Stevens
celia
Eric Stevens wrote:
>
> I'm not arguing with you about that. I'm just questioning your thesis
> that the communication was necessarily by written specifications.
> >
> >So I believe that they communicated with each other,
> >primarily in writing -- though the writing might easily
> >have been design drawings.
>
> Are you suggesting that only one person was ever capable of working
> out the details? That anyone who saw a cathedral or similar under
> construction (or in a sketch) would need to have written instructions
> before he could try to build one of his own? They didn't all have the
> right recipe and several fell down during construction.
>
> At least as interesting, to me, is the question of who financed their
> construction and how did they manage it?
>
I can link at least 26 important religious foundations
by landholdings to the royal goldsmiths. Until the late 10th c.
they were descendants of Cerdic. Even after the Conquest
they were involved in some building work.
A design role ?
celia
Soren Larsen
Bollocks
The Norse discovery of North America is exactly a technology marker.
Part of the argument against the Norse discovery was that navigation
and shipbuilding technique was too primitive for an atlantic crossing
at the time. Some people actually belived this until the discovery of
the LAM site.
In the same way as the apollo landings on the moon are technology markers
even though no colonisation came of them.
Cheers
Soren Larsen
jackli...@earthlink.net
. The Catholic Encyclopedia article gives Jumieges the "mystery" origin
prize. I include a reference to one of the Kalamazoo conferences
discussion of whether St. Denis could have been built in the time frame
Suger cited. The vaulting being exposed seems to have an actual
history, see the Catholic Encyclopedia article. Obvious in its own way,
why build something that is hidden when removing the cover gives a
building more light. Sort of new area for me, I had architecture in
mind as my career until I hit Reed College.
"The style originated at the abbey church of Saint-Denis in
Saint-Denis, near Paris, where it exemplified the vision of Abbot
Suger. Suger wanted to create a physical representation of the Heavenly
Bethlehem, a building of a high degree of linearity that was suffused
with light and color. The façade was actually designed by Suger,
whereas the Gothic nave was added some hundred years later. He designed
the façade of Saint-Denis to be an echo of the Roman Arch of
Constantine with its three-part division. This division is also
frequently found in the Romanesque style. The eastern "rose" window,
which is credited to him as well, is a re-imagining of the Christian
"circle-square" iconography. The first truly Gothic construction was
the choir of the church, consecrated in 1144. With its thin columns,
stained-glass windows, and a sense of verticality with an ethereal
look, the choir of Saint-Denis established the elements that would
later be elaborated upon during the Gothic period. This style was
adopted first in northern France and by the English, and spread
throughout France, the Low Countries and parts of Germany and also to
Spain and northern Italy."
a long architectural discussion
http://architecture.about.com/library/weekly/aa121800f.htm
A history of the flying butress from the Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06665b.htm
At their hands the Lombard pilaster-strip became at once a functional
buttress instead of a decorative adjunct, while the successive steps in
the evolution of the flying buttress remain on record and are
peculiarly interesting. In the Abbaye aux Hommes,
the expedient was adopted of constructing half-barrel vaults
springing from the aisle walls and abutting against the vaults of the
nave beneath the lean-to roof. These were in reality concealed flying
buttresses, but they were flying buttresses of bad form; for only a
small part of their action met the concentrated action of the vaults
that they were designed to stay, the greater part of it operating
against the walls between the piers where no abutments were required
(Moore, op. cit., I, 12, 13).
In the Abbaye aux Dames these defects were remedied, for all the barrel
vault was cut away except that narrow part which abutted against, the
spring of the vault. The flying buttress had been invented. As yet it
was hidden under the triforium roof and did not declare itself to the
eye. but functionally it was complete.
The fruit of the Cluniac reform working on Norman blood had been the
evolution of the main lines of the Gothic plan (barring the eastern
termination, or chevet) together with the development of the Gothic
system of vaulting and the Gothic principle of concentrated thrusts met
by pier buttresses and flying buttresses. The true "Gothic system" is
therefore the product of Normandy. In the meantime what had been done
towards the working-out of the other half of the Gothic idea -- the
discovering anew of the underlying principles of pure beauty, their
analysis into the elements of form and composition, proportion,
relation and rhythm, line and colour, and chiaroscuro and finally what
had been accomplished in the direction of evolving that new quality of
form-expression which, differing as it does from any school of the
past, gives to Gothic art its peculiar personality? -- Nothing, so far
as Normandy is concerned, except as regards certain large architectonic
qualities first revealed in Jumièges, and, following this, in the
Abbeys of Caen and St-Georges de Bocherville. The Abbaye aux Hommes is
the norm of all French cathedrals; the Abbaye aux Dames, of the English
order; while Jumièges, the first in date, remains one of the most
astonishing buildings in history. If it had antecedents, if it came as
the culmination of a long and progressive series of experiments in the
development of architectonic form, the evidence is forever lost, for,
as it now stands, it is isolated, almost preternatural. So far as we
know, it had no precursors, and yet here are the majestical ruins of a
monastic church larger than any since the time of Constantine and far
in advance, so far as design and development are concerned, of any
contemporary structure. Montier en Der, an abbey of Haute-Marne, built
by Abbots Adso and Berenger (960, 998), is the only recorded structure
which bears the least kinship to Jumièges, and the difference between
the two separated by only fifty years -- is that between barbarism and
civilization. All that was good in Lombard architecture has been
assimilated, and in addition we find fixed for the whole Gothic period
those lofty and monumental proportions, that masterly setting out of
plan, the powerful grouping of lofty towers, the final organism of
arcaded triforium, and clerestory that together were to set the type of
Gothic architecture for its entire term and endure unchanged, though
infinitely perfected, so long as the Christian civilization of the
Middle Ages remained operative. After Jumièges the abbeys of Caen were
easy, and, given a continuation of cultural conditions, Amiens and
Lincoln inevitable.
http://orgs.uww.edu/avista/avistapdfs/afj1101.pdf
Includes a study of the tool marks etc. on Jumieges (Done by a
professor at one of my several colleges)
SAINT-DENIS STUDIES
COULD SUGER HAVE BUILT THE CHOIR OF
SAINT-DENIS IN FOUR YEARS?
John James
Hartley Vale, Australia
I T HAS BEEN ARGUED generally that Abbot Suger constructed
the whole choir of his new abbey church from
crypt to high vaults in the four years between 15 July 1140
and 12 June 1144, although he himself claimed that the building
campaign took only three years and three months. Suger
wrote in De Administratione that the work was completed
"...from the crypt below to the summit of the vaults above,
elaborated with the variety of so many arches and columns,
including even the consummation of the roof."' This has been
interpreted to mean the summit of the high vaults "above" the
altar, and the "roof' mentioned in the text is assumed to be the
main roof above those same high vaults.
Sumner Crosby printed a well-known section that showed
an elevation not unlike Saint-Germain-des-PrCs in Pcaris with a
false gallery, clerestory, and high vaults.' Yet Crosby was not
totally satisfied by this, for he wrote that "even my own enthusiasm
for Suger's abilities questions the possibility of his erecting
such a complex structure, especially one so novel, in such
a short time."3 For myself, I have not been happy with the prevailing
view that the Saint-Denis choir was built at breakneck
speed. My gut feeling, based on experience as a builder and as
an architect, tells me that it could not have been finished in
three years and three months, as Suger asserted, or even four
years as proclaimed in histories of Gothic art. This brief essay
offers a new reading of Suger's comments on the dates of construction
of the abbey's choir in light of the realities of twelfth century
construction practice
Paul J Gans
I'd guess probably not. At least not the stonework. That
needed masons who were thoroughly versed in the properties
of various types of stone.
After all, you would not expect a stone mason to produce
decent gold jewelry, right?
----- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>Bollocks
>Cheers
>Soren Larsen
Soren, you missed my point. That point was that the Norse discovery
of North America had ZERO impact on the Norse in particular and
Europe in general. There were no economic benefits, no social
benefits, and certainly no direct technological benefits. The
technology would have been there even if nobody had ventured to
North America.
The discovery is historically important as it gives us some
insight into the Norse and their activities. But as innovative
technology, I think not.
The arguments you mention are those of much later generations
made by folks who think medieval people stupid. And you are
quite right about them.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>http://orgs.uww.edu/avista/avistapdfs/afj1101.pdf
>Includes a study of the tool marks etc. on Jumieges (Done by a
>professor at one of my several colleges)
If you are curious check
http://orgs.uww.edu/avista/officers.htm
----- Paul J. Gans
celia
The evidence is there of work across different disciplines.
Toki from a family of goldsmiths signed his name as the
'writer' on two stone tombs and was possibly an instructor
in sculpture at Peterborough.
Dunstan was said to be a goldsmith and to have designed
embroidery. The goldsmith Theodric who worked for Tovi's wife Gifa,
Queen Edith and Edward as a goldsmith was also a designer.
Evesham Abbey church was rebuilt when the goldsmith Manni
was abbot, the goldsmith Godric went to work with him.
Royal goldsmiths were among the festermen for Peterbotough.
Lead from goldsmith owned mines is used,
for example the lead from Derbyshire used on the roof of
Canterbury Cathedral.
Leaving aside any charters that might be argued not to
belong by the royal gold workshops the transfer of land
before major building work goes beyond coincidence.
Salisbury Cathedral was endowed with 10 hides at Ruscombe
by St. Osmund during building work. Westminster Abbey
was given 50 hides at White Waltham on its foundation
Waltham Abbey was twice endowed with land at
White Waltham, for its building and rebuilding.
Binfield was put up as a surety for Peterborough.
The Bishops of Winchester held land at Waltham for
generations during all the building work there
Hurley Priory was endowed with land at Waltham
during its building. During the rebuilding of Wilton
instigated by Queen Edith she owned the gold workshops.
Bisham Abbey owned land at White Waltham during its building.
The Bishops of Durham owned land at White Waltham
during the building of the cathedral, William de St. Calais
is shown in DB to have owned land at White Waltham
during the building of the cathedral library.
During the 10th c. building work at Abingdon they
owned Winkfield and the goldsmith who owned Waltham
was the king's foster brother.
When Sonning's bishops palace was rebuilt by Odo
the Severe his adoptive father owned land in the Walthams.
Cirencester Abbey owned land in White Waltham
during building work.
Add in the building work that is connected to the area
of the gold workshops by land holdings if I am right
about the charters that don't obviously belong in the area
and the list more than doubles.
It could be argued that the reliquaries etc being made
by the goldsmiths for these important new buildings
were of more importance than the buildings themselves
but the logical conclusion is that the goldsmiths at
the very least had a coordinating role and were probably
the architects.
They had money and they had influence.
Celia
Vaughan Sanders
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:e9tetv$bf9$3...@reader2.panix.com...
So are you saying that the innovative technology of their sailing ships was
completely forgotten, and later European sailing ships evolved from a
completely different source?
Jamie
Vaughan Sanders
Is this just speculation? plate armour would be "made to measure" wouldn't
it?
Howard's accounts appear to indicate Continental armourers, they also appear
to have come to England to make the armour.
The Wars of the Roses would have been good business for the armourers.
Jamie
William Black
>
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:e9rgr8$bun$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
> > I've heard this described as someone in the trade 'selling on' imported
> > armour.
> >
> > --
> > William Black
> >
>
> Is this just speculation? plate armour would be "made to measure" wouldn't
> it?
Well no.
Armour made on the continent will almost certainly have to be 'fitted' at
some point just after delivery.
You can't make measurements for (for example) an articulated gauntlet and
make something that fits first time...
So there's got to be someone on the spot who can do adjustmets
> Howard's accounts appear to indicate Continental armourers, they also
appear
> to have come to England to make the armour.
Adjust more than make.
Making plate harness requires a considerable outlay on plant and machinary
and it took Henry VIII to do that in England the first time.
> The Wars of the Roses would have been good business for the armourers.
The war bits did tend to be over in weeks.
Not enough time...
celia
celia wrote:
> Tron wrote:
> > "celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> skrev i melding
> > news:1153428048....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > >I am gathering information on the medieval use of draw- plates.
> > > The earliest written evidence that i have come across is in
> > > De Diversis Artibus by Theophilus c. 1122. I hope to get hold
> > > of a translation soon.
> >
> > A good many years ago the Danes found the entire tool chest of a smith in
> > one of their bogs.
> > Perhaps there is some info on the subject in DK?
> >
> > Søren?
> >
> this is the discussion on the 'Viking drawplate'
> on the site given by Inger.
> Comments appreciated.
>
> Celia
Sorry I couldn't get that to copy but it can be
reached from Inger's first post in 'Thoughts and Questions'
Various possibilities are considered for the fragment
of bone draw plate. I consider the holes too large
to draw gold or silver through bone. Leather thonging
is suggested, this is ridiculous, anyone who has ever worked
with leather thong would know that this method of
rounding it off wouldn't work. A thong made of a single strip
of leather is rounded by holding a very sharp blade
in your dominant hand, wrapping a strip of leather round the
forefinger of the other hand, suspending the thong at
about eye height and running it over the protective leather
strip. Hold the blade against the edge to be strimmed
and walk backwards. A braided thong is rounded by
rolling firmly between two flat surfaces.
A very real possibility is that the drawplate was used
for trichinopoly which is a posh way of saying knitting
in wire. If you did french knitting on a bobbin and four
nails as a child think of doing it with very fine wire.
the finished 'chain' is then fed through the drawplate
to finish it. This site shows a cuff of the right period
trimmed in this way.
http://www.jomsb.org/Dirk/Trichinopoly/Trichinopoly.htm
Another possibility is that the drawplate was used in
the way that the ancient egyptians used them, to curl
and reduce in diameter a ribbon of finely beaten metal.
this makes a hollow tube that takes less effort to draw
than a solid rod.
Celia
Inger_Eleonora
Paul now you must have missed a lot of the economic advantage for Northern
Europe from 1000 AD up to King Eric's days (adopted son of Queen Margaretha
widow of Hakon, Magnus Eriksson's son, remember the Calmarunion).
The trade of furs and other valuable items from Greenland included furs from
animal which definitely don't live in Greenland nor in Iceland. Some of this
came as gift to the Emperor of China via a traderoute from Greenland via
Bergen and over to the Baltics and the Russians, other ended up in for
example Egypt.
Then there was an intensive and profitable trade of fish that was fished in
the triangle Greenland, Iceland and down to North Eastern Canada.
one of the latest works dealing with this is:
The North Atlantic fisheries, 1100-1976 : national perspectives on a common
resource / edited by Poul Holm, Esbjerg : Fiskeri- og Søfartsmuseets
Forl.1996
serie: Studia Atlantica, , ISSN 1396-6294
In Sweden's Royal Library's Libris you also can read following remark:
"Papers presented to a symposium on 'North Atlantic Fisheries History,
1100-1976', held in July 1995 on the Westman Islands, Iceland"
ISBN: 87-87453-71-1
There are many more works written by scholars
But I think that one is the one easiest to find and read for you and the
others. Those that don't deal with the fish trade are almost always written
in a Scandinavian language.
Inger E
Inger_Eleonora
"celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153594900....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Celia
Celia,
have you looked at this gold collar found in Västergötland (Wisigothia) from
migration age, don't you think that some kind of draw-plates must have been
used to get so thin gold wires? /Inger E
Inger_Eleonora
>
>
>
>
jackli...@earthlink.net
I saw a statement in one of the "history of gothic" things I ran
through saying the mason on Notre Dame signed his name at the 20-foot
level and the next generation were paper pushers. Also have seen a
theory that several mason-designers were involved in simultaneous or
near-simultaneous construction of the various parts.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
I'm not so sure that your view is correct. The evidence appears to be
that well befoer Columbus there was knowledge in Europe of an unknown
land across the Atlantic and this undoubtedly increased the motive to
explore. It also increased the pressure to improve navigation.
Columbus certainly wasn't the first to try and probably wasn't even
the first to succeed. Without the norse having made their way across
the sea there might have been no Henry the Navigator and it might have
taken much longer for the Portuguese and Spanish to make the
discoveries they did. All else is history - our history - which might
have been considerably different without the early norse voyages.
>The discovery is historically important as it gives us some
>insight into the Norse and their activities. But as innovative
>technology, I think not.
>
>The arguments you mention are those of much later generations
>made by folks who think medieval people stupid. And you are
>quite right about them.
>
> ---- Paul J. Gans
>
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
Norse marine technology was distinctively different from that of the
rest of Europe and I don't know that there has been much of it
transferred to the rest of the world.
Eric Stevens
Paul J Gans
No. Can't you folks read English?
What I said was the discovery of North America was *almost*
completely forgotten and had no influence on economic and
social developments in Europe.
I said NOTHING about sailing ship technology.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
Yes. There was usually one person in overall charge, but
construction on many aspects would go on simultaneously.
For instance, the tracery for the stained glass windows
would be dry assembled on drawings on the floor of the
cathedral and when everything fitted, then raised to their
final position.
Another bunch might be involved in the construction of walls
or interior work.
---- Paul J. Gans
celia
Inger_Eleonora wrote:
> > Celia,
> > have you looked at this gold collar found in Västergötland (Wisigothia)
> from
> > migration age, don't you think that some kind of draw-plates must have
> been
> > used to get so thin gold wires? /Inger E
> http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/folkvandring/mone/64-e.html
> >
hand hammered to such uniform thickness.
It's an awe inspiring piece of work, have you got
any closer idea of the date please, it's not a style I
am familiar with ?
Celia
Alan Crozier
Celia,
5th century or around 500, according to my book Treasures of Early
Sweden.
It also says collars like this can hardly have been worn by humans as
they would have fitted badly on the shoulders. "They must instead have
adorned statues of gods. ... A small wooden idol of a seated man wearing
a three-ringed collar has been found in a Danish bog."
Alan
--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden
celia
anything in English on such a treasure.
Could it have been made without a draw plate ?
What sort of scale are we looking at ?
If it went round the shoulders perhaps i am imagining something
smaller than it is. I recollect a ceremonial collar that fitted
over the top of the arms.
The date seems very early unless, as I suspect, the use
of the draw plate continued from the Romans.
I think I've got enough evidence to show that it wasn't
an 11th c. invention / reinvention.
Celia
Alan Crozier
Celia,
The diameter of the collar is 23 cm. The thinnest gold wires are 0.15 mm
thick. The whole collar weighs 821 g.
Peter Alaca
> "Alan Crozier" <name1...@telia.com> skrev i melding
>> Are you thinking of the Mästermyr find from Gotland (now Sweden)?
> Xactly - superb. Draw Plates and all.
It is not at all certain that it are draw plates.
See the catalog.
--
p.a.
celia
What is the 'draw plate ' made from and what size are the holes ?
What other possibilities are there ?
Celia
celia
Thanks, it was larger than I imagined.
Celia
Peter Alaca
> Peter Alaca wrote:
>> Tron wrote:
>>> "Alan Crozier" skrev
>>>> Are you thinking of the Mästermyr find from Gotland (now Sweden)?
>>> Xactly - superb. Draw Plates and all.
>> It is not at all certain that it are draw plates.
>> See the catalog.
> What is the 'draw plate ' made from and what size are the holes ?
> What other possibilities are there ?
This is what the catalog says
http://www.netlabs.net/~osan/Mastermyr/Catalog.html
Punching block or uncompleted draw plate 79
An iron bar , cut at both ends, and slightly curved
lengthwise. Along the middle of the bar is a
single row of twenty-two round-bottomed holes
with traces of what may have been another hole
at one end. Seven holes have been struck so
hard that the punch perforated the bar .
16.4 x 1.2 x 0.4 cm.
Punching block or uncompleted draw plate 80
A flat iron bar which tapers at both ends. Twenty-
six holes, six of which perforate the bar, are
placed in two irregular rows. 13.7 x 1.2 x 0.3 cm.
(?) Draw plate blank 81
Similar to nos. 79-80 but without punch marks,
12.9 x 1.1 x 0.4 cm.
The numbers are the same as in the imgage library
http://www.netlabs.net/~osan/Mastermyr/ImageLib.html
I think it is strange that they call it drawing plates,
while in the description they speak of of holes struck
so hard that they perforated the bar.
--
p.a.
Inger_Eleonora
http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/folkvandring/mone/64-e.html
/IEJ
"celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153643524.8...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Celia
Well Celia,
the possibility that it couldn't have been worn by humans, isn't the most
common one outside those who wrote the text Alan refered to and I sent.
That's not a census for that opinion. Can be so but must not be so.
If it's like that, then it's likely that it was the staty of Frö, which by
later tradition came to be replaced by Freja, who wore it. In older
skolbooks the tradition of making a staty of Frö from chaff and carrying it
around in a process over the land that had been harvest and now seen the new
sowing, is mentioned. While I seen that tradition mentioned in many myths
and sagas, I never seen any hard proof for that in written sources or other
artifacts.
Only the words 'Frö-' such as in Frötuna, Frölunda etc; '-vi' such as in
Frövi, Ullevi, Vivastemåla can from an archaeologic view be shown to be as
old as Bronze Age. 'Frö', 'Ull', 'Alv' are known to be our older God names.
Oden doesn't turn up as name of places where we can show that there been a
continued settlement or cult-tradition before Roman Iron Age. Same for
almost all of the other so called 'Nordic Gods'.
Now if we look at the 'tradition' I mentioned above, then it's a like many
early religious tradition around the world with or without valuable items on
the staty of the God symbolizing 'life' and 'growth'. But to link it to a
diffusion tradition we would have had to go from Bronze Age when the first
Bronze collars of alike type was made over to Migration Age when the Gold
collars such as the one on photo was made. It's a gap in tradition and in
Migration Age one other thing was at hand. A new tradition to throw some of
the simpler types of gold collars in water as a gift to the God/-s (?) or as
offer to a new God when an older religion's God were abondoned.
Now there are other opinions for usage as I mentioned. There are several
gold collars found in Sweden. Most of them in Västergötland, some for
example in Öland and few minor rarely mentioned since they aren't that good
technique behind them as the others has also been found in Östergötland.
There are as you who are anthropologists knows traditions where a lot of
rings are carried around the neck to mark status/position in society. But
then we have to go far east or far south.
IF we go far east, we will find the same type of animal symbols, not as
mini-sizes to my knowledge but still, on collars and bracelets worn by
humans as well as statues. We are dealing with Migration Age gold collars
here in Sweden. One of the major theories the last 30 years, and more, has
been that the so called 'Nordic Gods' were introduced one way or an other in
Migration Age when some of the Goths in Emperor Julian's days were given the
task to 'go' around Persia, actually with help of today's Russian Step's
groups Tartarer and Kirgisier, to open a new trade route to China. One of
the routes then used, not the ordinary so called 'Silk Road', took the Goths
in question via Indus and northern India.
AND
it's in India the origins/'ancestors' of the so called 'Nordic Gods' are to
be found. Well tracked/traced and proven to be diffused to Scandinavia
around early Migration Age.
In this light it's also possible to see later centuries contacts, which btw
never were completely cut off,
between Buddha religion, discussed Buddha minitures found can of course be
due to those long contacts, not to mention all the small gold miniatures on
'our' Gold collars:
http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/folkvandring/Torslunda/096-e.
html
http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/folkvandring/Torslunda/SHM_27
66-e.html
http://wadbring.com/historia/bilder5/alleb2.jpg (detail Ållebergskragen)
Uwe Müller
"celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1153643524.8...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Celia
Hi, AFAIR, wire from precious metals was used from the early Iron Age on.
For iron wire it is supposedly the high medieval, buit I know a number of
later examples where 'wire' was still made from small strips of sheet metal.
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Inger_Eleonora
Celia
Celia, one of the other collars weigh more.
The problem to produce the gold wire not to mention the miniatures on the
collar were/are so big that when some of Europes best goldsmiths today was
asked to produce a copy they couldn't make it without using a form and
melted gold.......
So the major question is who could have done these? From where did the
technology/the goldsmith come and why ending up at least in Västergötland
where we know that some of the collars found was made locally? ......
How come that the skill/tradition to make such valuable items seems to have
faded away after the Ostrogoths lost Italy? Connection? Impacts?
Inger E
Alan Crozier
> I am gathering information on the medieval use of draw- plates.
> The earliest written evidence that i have come across is in
> De Diversis Artibus by Theophilus c. 1122. I hope to get hold
> of a translation soon.
> from ingots by hammering. The sheets could be cut into strips
> and the strips either twisted and hammered to make wire
> or put through a draw plate. The wire could be made finer
> by pulling through progressively smaller holes.
> the holes need not be circular, they could be any simple shape
> such as D shaped or square. Draw plates could also
> be used for changing the profile of chains.
> Enjoy this delightfully chaotic image of a goldsmiths workshop
> complete with rampaging cats and dogs and a cockeral
> treading a hen.
> http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/rp/z/rp-p-ob-963.z?leftcoulisse
> A simple draw plate is being used in the left foreground.
> The young man is holding it down by treading on it and pulling
> the wire upwards with his draw tongs.
> This more ordered image of a workshop is in many ways little
> different from a modern one.
>
http://tle.northwestern.edu/museum/catalog/cgi/search.cgi?DB=1&QUERY=1985.2.202®ION=IDNUMBER&
> The draw plate here is being pulled through with the tongs attached
> in such a way as leverage can be used. The kiln used
> for softening the wire by annealing can be seen on the right
> and above the head of the lad drawing the wire, stored in
> loops of leather you can see a selection of draw plates
> with different shaped holes.
> Any more information on draw-plates or images gratefully received.
>
On page 9 of the following essay you can see a drawing of a Viking Age
draw-plate from Birka and a photo of a modern one made of reindeer
antler.
http://www.archaeology.su.se/pdf/ksalmi.pdf
The Sami (Lapps) draw pewter wire using these perforated plates of
antler. Experiments using plates of steel and brass have failed because
the pewter tends to stick.
You can see links to much later illustrations of Drahtzieher (1425-1533)
at
http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2817
There are other Viking Age finds of draw-plates, eg. one from Tjuls on
Gotland, and also from Norway and Denmark. No exact references, I'm
taking this from an encyclopedia on medieval Scandinavia (KLNM).
On page 16 of the following it says that draw-plates were first used (in
Scandinavia?) around 700. Figure 6 on page 15 shows the scrape marks
left on the wire by the draw-plate.
Peter Alaca
> On page 9 of the following essay you can see a drawing of a Viking Age
> draw-plate from Birka and a photo of a modern one made of reindeer
> antler.
> http://www.archaeology.su.se/pdf/ksalmi.pdf
>
> The Sami (Lapps) draw pewter wire using these perforated plates of
> antler. Experiments using plates of steel and brass have failed
> because the pewter tends to stick.
>
> You can see links to much later illustrations of Drahtzieher
> (1425-1533) at
> http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2817
>
> There are other Viking Age finds of draw-plates, eg. one from Tjuls
> on Gotland, and also from Norway and Denmark. No exact references, I'm
> taking this from an encyclopedia on medieval Scandinavia (KLNM).
>
> On page 16 of the following it says that draw-plates were first used
> (in Scandinavia?) around 700. Figure 6 on page 15 shows the scrape
> marks left on the wire by the draw-plate.
Thanks for the links.
I like the hanging bench on the second and
fourth picture.
Very strange is that the man in the third
picture is sitting in the air.
--
p.a.
jackli...@earthlink.net
The short swing in the fourth picture leads me to believe that
practicioners suffered from severe back pain in later life.
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
J Gans) wrote:
> After all, you would not expect a stone mason to produce
> decent gold jewelry, right?
Why not, a goldsmith designed the biggest dome in Europe.
Ken Young
jackli...@earthlink.net
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/middle_ages/architecture_medmason_01.shtml
BBC program on the organization, one of those "high school term paper"
mills has one connecting the medieval mason to the Masonic order,
sharing in mysteries like geometry and proportion, etc.
The University of Houston has an on-line version of the same:
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1530.htm
"Of course, working on such a titanic scale in the highest technology
of the age, they grew increasingly wealthy, powerful, and proud. They
signed their work boldly and dramatically. A twenty-five foot long
inscription on the south transept of Notre-Dame Cathedral says:
Master Jean de Chelles commenced this work for the Glory of the
Mother of Christ on the second of the Ides of the month of February,
1258.
Even the contemplative labyrinths on cathedral floors led the faithful
to a central plaque where they found, not a holy symbol or a saint, but
an image of the master mason wielding a compass."
Alan Crozier
news:44c356ca$0$19482$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
He's wearing one of these:
http://bse.wisc.edu/hfhp/tipsheets_html/BERstool.htm
or these
http://tinyurl.com/gza72
Peter Alaca
> "Peter Alaca" wrote
>> Alan Crozier wrote:
There is no trace of the leg of such a stool.
So if he is wearing one, he's wearing it the
wrong side up.
--
p.a.
jackli...@earthlink.net
Maybe Inge can find a refernce to these in the Old Norse
David Starr
> Draw-plates are very hard to pin down. There evidently is
> some evidence of circular wire being pulled through draw
> plates back around the mid-11th centry. This would be
> iron wire, by the way -- a much harder material to draw.
> ---- Paul J. Gans
Actually ,soft wrought iron might not be harder to draw than copper or
brass. Years ago I was renovating an early 18th century farmhouse in
Connecticut. The nails were pure wrought iron and so soft that I could
straighten a bent 8 penny nail with just finger pressure. Driving them
was next to impossible, they were so soft that they bent when struck
with the hammer, even going into clear soft pine. The old wrought iron
nails were as soft as a modern copper wire. Most modern "iron" stuff
is actually mild steel. For instance modern 8 penny steel nails are so
stiff that you have to straighten them with a hammer or a vise.
I feel that a craftsman who could draw silver or gold or copper or
brass wire would have no trouble drawing wrought iron wire because the
wrought iron is nearly as soft as copper.
David Starr
kil...@gmail.com
celia wrote:
> Alan Crozier wrote:
<snip>
> > Celia,
> > The diameter of the collar is 23 cm. The thinnest gold wires are 0.15 mm
> > thick. The whole collar weighs 821 g.
> >
> > Alan
>
> Thanks, it was larger than I imagined.
I'm not sure I have the right image, as I haven't really followed this
thread. However, if I am correct, this is an image of the whole piece:
In Firefox, clicking on the image takes you to a page that shows
various views of the thing; and, mutatus mutandum, clicking on *those*
images takes you back to the main page.
celia
That's the one, an impressive piece of work !
The way I would expect a hollow tube to be made
is like the ancient Egyptians made wire using a large drawplate
and thin sheet metal but the tubes here appear to be shaped.
I wish we had a view of the back.
Thanks
Celia
Paul J Gans
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/middle_ages/architecture_medmason_01.shtml
A couple of points. Masons were regarded with some awe back
then. And God was often depicted as a master architect,
constructing the world withe dividers and straightedge. Geometry
was perfect and hence exactly the means that God would use.
It would not be possible for God to create or use anything
imperfect.
However, there is, as far as I know, no direct connection between
the modern Masons and medieval masons. Most of today's membership
in the Masons are not, in fact, masons.
As for pride in workmanship, was that not a medieval trait?
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>> ---- Paul J. Gans
I didn't realize that it was that soft. As far as I know
most nails in the medieval period were of rectangular cross
section and made from hammered bar stock and thus work hardened.
---- Paul J. Gans
Peter Alaca
Yes, de medieval nails I met were pretty hard.
No way to bent them by hand.
--
p.a.
jackli...@earthlink.net
This would seem to contradict a posting I made earlier about the use of
wooden pegs and mortise and tenons being a sign of superior
craftsmanship. I would suppose a nice shinny tinned nail would provide
a look that might appeal. Note the availability of replicas of old
Norse tools in the footnotes. I remember a note about 14k of nails
accompanying one of the Vinland voyages.
http://www.his.com/~tom/sca/nails.html
Did medieval craftsmen use nails?
There is often a perception among modern woodworkers that using nails
is a sign of shoddy, second-rate work-which surely a medieval craftsman
would not do. Or conversely, that nails must have been far too
expensive to be used in medieval furniture and construction. The truth
was somewhere in-between: nailed construction was for a time "state of
the art," yet shows up frequently in surviving artifacts and
documentary evidence.
Medieval nails were made by hand, either by a general ironworker
(blacksmith) or by a specialist nail maker. Contrary to the popular
image of dark medieval furniture, medieval nails and other ironwork
were sometimes tinned for a bright appearance. Tinning was both
decorative and helped prevent corrosion, especially where the nails
were in contact with oak, which being somewhat acidic tends to stain in
contact with iron. Ironwork might also be finished with varnish or
blackened with pitch.1
Early on, nails and associated ironwork appear to have been used for a
variety of purposes. The Mastermyr tool chest, probably dating from the
10th or 11th century, included both nails and nail-making hardware.2
Nails and spikes show up frequently in both period ships and the
excavation of shipyard sites, indicating that nails were not only used
but even occasionally wasted. Nails were also used extensively in
building construction, from small roofing nails to large iron spikes.
Despite their expense, nails were not at all rare or unusual, L. F.
Salzman's examination of building accounts, "shows that great
quantities of nails, called by a surprising variety of names, were used
in medieval building. Thus the stores at Calais in 1390 included
'494,900 nails of various kinds,' which, as nails were often reckoned
by the long hundred of six score, may be actually 593,880."3
In the early Middle Ages, most woodworking was done by carpenters, who
built both houses and the furniture in them. Early furniture styles
were largely "boarded," consisting of wide boards nailed or pegged
together. Such joinery relies on the strength of the fasteners more
than the joints themselves, and nails were often used either as a
primary fastener or to secure reinforcing bands, hinges, locks, etc.
Nails often became a decorative motif, in part because the presence of
nails in surfaces limits other possibilities for carving and painting.
By the later Middle Ages and early Renaissance, boarded furniture was
losing popularity to stronger and lighter joined furniture, which
relies on mortise and tenon joints rather than iron fasteners. Since
nails are characteristic of boarded furniture, it is in this period
that the use of nails begins to become associated with second-quality
furniture. However, nailed furniture remained extremely popular for
everyday use; all of the chests recovered from the 16th century wreck
of the Mary Rose were of boarded construction.4 Interestingly, even the
dovetailed chests (now regarded as a form of joinery) were also nailed,
a practice not usually seen today.
Notes
1. Salzman, L.F. Building in England Down to 1540. Oxford University
Press, Oxford, 1952 (Special edition for Sandpiper Books Ltd., 1997),,
p. 294.
2. Arwidsson, Greta and Berg, Gösta. The Mästermyr Find, A Viking Age
Tools Chest from Gotland. Kungl. Vitterhets Historie Och Antikvitets
Akademien, Almquist & Wiksell Intl., Stockholm, 1983.
[http://www.warehamforge.ca/repro.html reproductions of the tools]
3. Salzman, pp. 303-304.
4. Redknap, Mark (ed.). Artefacts from Wrecks; Dated assemblages from
the Late Middle Ages to the Industrial Revolution. Oxbow Monograph 84.
Oxbow Books, Oxford, 1997.
Alan Crozier
I'm sure the occasional wire puller enjoyed that kind of thrill.
Andrew Chaplin
news:kARwg.10274$E02....@newsb.telia.net...
Alan, does pulling one's wire mean the same thing in Lund as it does here?
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Alan Crozier
news:f9-dnT6r0LhUdV7Z...@giganews.com...
No, it means nothing here because they speak Swedish. I don't know of
any literal Swedish equivalent to that idiom. Expats don't often get a
chance to employ colourful English like that, so you will understand why
I couldn't resist using it.
jackli...@earthlink.net
Well, flying by wire meant two different things to two very similar
groups of engineers in the 1960s. Depends on your group.
Andrew Chaplin
Ah, good. No reason to resist temptation, this is Usenet, after all. :^)
Vaughan Sanders
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
news:7nb5c29pt48vutbep...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:19:37 +0100, "Vaughan Sanders"
> <v...@jamie-san.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
>>news:e9tetv$bf9$3...@reader2.panix.com...>>>>> jackli...@earthlink.net wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would think that trying to hide a flying buttress would be a futile
>>>>>> effort while the origin of really good chain mail might be a family
>>>>>> secret.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not over *that* period of time.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Like William Black's steel tools and clear glass and other
>>>>>> things imagined but not seen. The technology for really sharp tools
>>>>>> that kept their edge would be used in the high-end sword and dagger
>>>>>> industry while the lowly woodworker would have to hope he could find
>>>>>> such a treasure by chance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but armorers were not lowly carpenters.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am reminded of a passage in a book I can't find right now but it
>>>>>> dealt with the Hellenistic scientistists who created the Antikythera
>>>>>> machine. A sixteenth century clock used an identical gearing for the
>>>>>> months, suggesting something written down did survive.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's all in dispute, but in a way quite possible. It isn't
>>>>> that something was lost. What happens is that often there is
>>>>> no perceived need for a new invention. As a result the invention
>>>>> disappears.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is a bit like silly arguments over who discovered North America
>>>>> (or wherever). The discovery has to have some sort of impact,
>>>>> otherwise it is forgotten.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of North America we *now* know that the Vikings were
>>>>> here first. But nothing came of that discovery.
>>>
>>>>Bollocks
>>>
>>>>The Norse discovery of North America is exactly a technology marker.
>>>
>>>>Part of the argument against the Norse discovery was that navigation
>>>>and shipbuilding technique was too primitive for an atlantic crossing
>>>>at the time. Some people actually belived this until the discovery of
>>>>the LAM site.
>>>
>>>>In the same way as the apollo landings on the moon are technology
>>>>markers
>>>>even though no colonisation came of them.
>>>
>>>>Cheers
>>>>Soren Larsen
>>>
>>> Soren, you missed my point. That point was that the Norse discovery
>>> of North America had ZERO impact on the Norse in particular and
>>> Europe in general. There were no economic benefits, no social
>>> benefits, and certainly no direct technological benefits. The
>>> technology would have been there even if nobody had ventured to
>>> North America.
>>>
>>> The discovery is historically important as it gives us some
>>> insight into the Norse and their activities. But as innovative
>>> technology, I think not.
>>>
>>> The arguments you mention are those of much later generations
>>> made by folks who think medieval people stupid. And you are
>>> quite right about them.
>>>
>>> ---- Paul J. Gans
>>>
>>
>>So are you saying that the innovative technology of their sailing ships
>>was
>>completely forgotten, and later European sailing ships evolved from a
>>completely different source?
>
> Norse marine technology was distinctively different from that of the
> rest of Europe and I don't know that there has been much of it
> transferred to the rest of the world.
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
>
I think you will find that English and Dutch ships were heavily influenced
by Norse design at least until the end of the 14th century.
http://www.cma.soton.ac.uk/HistShip/SHLECT86.HTM
"The Bremen cog demonstrates the cog type at the height of its development
in the mid fourteenth century. Already it is showing signs of the merging of
techniques which ultimately leads to a new type of hybridised large ship in
the fifteenth century. The flat floor is Celtic in origin, the Keel is
Norse, the mixture of carvel and clinker planking owes something to the
Mediterranean. The vessel is very heavily framed but is not yet skeleton
built, though the frames contribute substantially to the structural
integrity of the hull. In the next century the superimposed stern castle is
gradually absorbed into the sheer of the ship so that it formed a genuinely
sheltered cabin. As the needs of war developed the castles also got higher
and more bulky. (268) A thirteenth century cog ex Greenhill. (83) Hanseatic
cog. (59) Late Medieval Cog ex Greenhill"
This cog was built using Norse technology, not Mediterranean skeleton
technology.
Dutch ship building skills would eventually allow them to punch way above
their weight, btw..
Jamie
Alan Crozier
news:WYHwg.10206$E02....@newsb.telia.net...
So a male god Frö was replaced by a female Freja?
> In older
> skolbooks the tradition of making a staty of Frö from chaff and
carrying it
> around in a process over the land that had been harvest and now seen
the new
> sowing, is mentioned. While I seen that tradition mentioned in many
myths
> and sagas, I never seen any hard proof for that in written sources or
other
> artifacts.
I would love to see your evidence for this. As you know, the linguistic
evidence clearly shows that the development was the other way around.
The original Old Norse diphthong au (and the mutated form ey) both
became ö in the later eastern dialects that became Swedish and Danish.
Icelandic has kept the older au and ey. So Icelandic haugur corresponds
to Swedish hög, Icelandic eyra to Swedish öra. This was how the Old
Norse Freyr later developed into Frö.
Not proven, suggested. Some of the Norse gods are common Indo-European
and thus much older than the Migration Age. Of course, the Norse
religion was in constant change, with influences coming all the time
from many quarters. The Mithras cult among Roman soldiers, for example,
may have added some new features to Odin (as Anders Kaliff has argued),
but Odin was almost certainly known before that.
>
> In this light it's also possible to see later centuries contacts,
which btw
> never were completely cut off,
> between Buddha religion, discussed Buddha minitures found can of
course be
> due to those long contacts, not to mention all the small gold
miniatures on
> 'our' Gold collars:
>
http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/folkvandring/Torslunda/096-e.
> html
>
>
http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/folkvandring/Torslunda/SHM_27
> 66-e.html
>
> http://wadbring.com/historia/bilder5/alleb2.jpg (detail
Ållebergskragen)
>
Alan
Vaughan Sanders
<quote>
"But as innovative technology, I think not."
</quote>
This seems pretty clear Paul?
Soren's "bollocks" is also pretty clear :-))
>
> What I said was the discovery of North America was *almost*
> completely forgotten and had no influence on economic and
> social developments in Europe.
>
> I said NOTHING about sailing ship technology.
>
> ---- Paul J. Gans
>
It was English sailing ship technology.that was the major factor in the
defeat of the Spanish, also the Dutch became major players.
I would have thought this was a major influence on economic and social
developments in Europe ?
The Knarr might have been the first type to visit Vinland, but I think you
will find a Cog was probably the last type to visit.
http://www.abc.se/~pa/bld/aluett-e.htm
I suspect even the "Collier Brigs" favoured by Captain James Cook can trace
some of their pedigree back to the Norse ships..
Jamie
celia
Paul J Gans wrote:
> As for pride in workmanship, was that not a medieval trait?
>
cart cleaning.
As I was covered in pigeon poo and cobwebs and couldn't
get much muckier I decided to explore and see how it was
constructed. Climbing over heavy horse farm machinery with
wheels five foot high and five inches wide I came to two
side rooms at the back, even though this was a working building
the hinges and catches were elegantly formed. The ladder
against the wall was much wider at the bottom than the
top and the rungs went right through, I doubt if it was original.
What could have been original were the boards towards the
top of the walls that were held in place by hand made nails.
They were far better cut than the lower replacement boards.
It would seem that standards had gone down.
Not medieval but very interesting were old wooden panels
and mouldings and ironwork stored there and the debris
of farm life at the beginning of the 20th c.
Celia
jackli...@earthlink.net
I can't vouch for the authenticity of this or the scholarship but it
tells a plausible story, connects the masonic movement with an actual
place and time and even lies along the line between medieval and early
modern.
http://www.freemason.org/cfo/march_april_2001/origins.htm
The Origins of Freemasonry
There is little doubt that in the 15th century craftsmen had
real grievances with merchants, who hired their services, and the local
town councils. With differing success they formed associations of their
own which sometimes appeared to be so menacing that laws were passed
restricting their activities.
Notwithstanding these laws, by 1475, the Masons and Wrights of
Edinburgh were strong enough to secure a 'Seal of Cause' or Charter
from the city of Edinburgh authorities. This created an Incorporation,
roughly equivalent to an English Trade Guild, which laid down rules for
the governance of the Craft. In 1489, Coopers were included and later
other groups of tradesmen joined. These incorporations framed rules,
resolved trade differences, dispensed charity and controlled entry to
the trade. Such incorporations were not unusual in Scottish Burghs and
most of the larger trades and crafts had an incorporation.
Examples of such 'incorporated trades' include: Wobsters
(weavers), Cordiners (shoemakers), Baxters (bakers), and Hammermen
(metal workers). The essential difference between the craft of stone
masonry and these other crafts and trades was that stones masons had
another level of organization - the Lodge. Thus we find, in 1491, that
the Edinburgh authorities granted the masons the right "to gett a
recreation in the commoun luge". This shows that masons used the Lodge
for something much more than storing their working tools. The existence
of Lodges in Scotland is known, therefore, from at least the 15th
century but little can be said regarding the activities of masons. It
is likely that Lodges were not organized on a rigid, formal, basis but
that meetings were called as and when necessary. The reasons why
another level of organization was required raises many interesting
questions.
In 1583, William Schaw was appointed by King James VI as Master
of the Work and Warden General with the Commission of re-organizing the
Masonic craft. In 1598, he issued the first of the now famous Schaw
Statutes which set out the duties of all members to the Lodge and to
the public. It also imposed penalties for unsatisfactory work and
inadequate safety during work. More importantly, for Freemasons today,
Schaw drew up a second Statute in 1599. The importance of this document
lies in the fact that it makes the first, veiled, reference to the
existence of esoteric knowledge within the craft of stone masonry. It
also reveals that The Mother Lodge of Scotland, Lodge Mother
Kilwinning, No.0, was in existence, and active, at that time. The
impact of these statutes was dramatic.
His instructions, to all LODGES (not incorporations), that they
must begin to keep written records, meet at specific times, test,
annually, members in the "Art of Memory" and enter apprentices in the
Lodge records meant that Lodges became fixed, permanent, institutions.
<more>
My "high school term paper" site is British, and tells a similar tale
to the above. It would appear the idea of Gothic architecture suddenly
appearing in many places more or less similtaneously (medieval
simultaneity) might own its being to the organization of the masons,
using geometry and the accepted ratios and teaching them to apprentices
as the need arose. The lodge would provide a place to keep their tools,
perhaps take meals and drink, learn of new projects and provide a
general organizational structure that many of the other guilds did not
have, due to their lack of mobility.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/medieval_masons.htm
"Masons were highly skilled craftsmen and they belonged to a guild.
However, a mason's guild was not linked to just one town as the
members of the masons guild had to move to where building was required.
The Mason's Guild was an international one and even in Medieval
England, the guild was sometimes referred to as the Free Masons as
'free' stone was the name of stone that was commonly used by masons
because it was soft and allowed the masons to complete intricate
carvings.
Masons tended to lead nomadic lives. They went where there was
employment. Other tradesmen could effectively stay where they were as
there was enough trade for their skill to allow them to settle.
However, masons had to move on to their next source of employment once
a building had been completed - and that could be many miles away.
A mason who was at the top of his trade was a master mason. However, a
Master Mason, by title, was the man who had overall charge of a
building site and master masons would work under this person. A Master
Mason also had charge over carpenters, glaziers etc. In fact, everybody
who worked on a building site was under the supervision of the Master
Mason. He would work in what was known as the Mason's Lodge. All
important building sites would have such a building that served as a
workshop and a drawing office from which all the work on the building
site was organised. Anyone who arrived at the building site and claimed
that they were a master mason would be tested by the Master Mason and
by master masons already working on the site. By doing this they
ensured that quality was maintained - and that they would have a good
chance of future building work.
A mason would have an apprentice working for him. When the mason moved
on to a new job, the apprentice would move with him. When a mason felt
that his apprentice had learned enough about the trade, he would be
examined at a Mason's Lodge. If he passed this examination of his
skill, he would be admitted to that lodge as a master mason and given a
mason's mark that would be unique to him. Once given this mark, the
new master mason would put it on any work that he did so that it could
be identified as his work."
<more>
celia
Zwolfbrudersliftung show nails being made. At one point they are held
in a plate that could be the partly holed 'punching plate/drawplate'
found in the box of tools. As far as I can tell a head is being
hammered
on the naiils (all suggestions welcomed) Is there anyone with
experience of blacksmithing who can say if this is a more likely
use for the object than a punching plate ? It seemed to me
that the holes were too small for a punching plate. It seems as if
the nails are being worked cold. Even today this type of nail,
as used for horseshoes etc is softer than normal nails.
The almond shaped 'drawplate' from the tool chest is so
like the ones in the 15thc. illustration that it is difficult
to imagine it being anything else.
Celia
William Black
Me again :-)
That's someone making 'rose headed nails', a common medieval type.
They're made in a similar way to a pin.
You form the nail from square bar stock and then heat it up.
You then drop it into a tapered hole of correct size cut into a plate and
hit the head to form the top of the nail, possibly with a former but
experienced smiths can get decent results with a hammer.
It's the classical smith's demonstration display activity, it doesn't take
much time or effort, it looks clever and you can sell the nails for £1 each
to the passing visitors...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Peter Alaca
I quess you mean this nailheader from the chest
http://tinyurl.com/l4eom
I read an illustrated web-article the other day about
how to use it. I don't know what happend, but I
can't find it anymore.
--
p.a.
celia
Don't go away clever clogs, turn your skills to this one,
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/goto?id=OBJ1418
Do you think a draw plate was used here ?
And how to you think the shaped hollow electrum
that the wire was wound round on the migration age
collar that Inger showed was made ?
Celia
celia
Pictures here, click on the main one to enlarge.
http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/folkvandring/mone/SHM_3248-e.html
Celia
William Black
William Black wrote:
> "celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1153746765.7...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Don't go away clever clogs, turn your skills to this one,
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/goto?id=OBJ1418
Do you think a draw plate was used here ?
-----------------------
I don't know.
Such items are usually described as being made of wire hammered down from
bar as 'draw plates' are later.
Because the gold has been polished the only way to tell would be destructive
testing and the BM would have a conniption fit if you even suggested that
from over the other side of Bloomsbury Square.
Actually you might be able to do something with stress diffraction (I think
it's called) but you'd still need to give the object to someone to play
with.
-----------------------------
And how to you think the shaped hollow electrum
that the wire was wound round on the migration age
collar that Inger showed was made ?
----------------------------
I've given up reading Inger's sources as they're almost invariably dodgy.
The Finnish museum service produces a range of reproduction precious metal
jewellery from the period that has essentially nothing that looks like drawn
wire anywhere on it.
Forming a tube from soft plate isn't hard, you need a wooden dowel of
appropriate size, a couple of decent hammers, an appropriate metal plate,
some short, broad headed pins and bash proof finger ends. You usually can't
see the soldering on precious metals after polishing...
One of the things they teach you on professional jewellery courses is that
you can make just about anything from precious metal with a saw, a hammer,
a brazing torch and a selection of old rubbish you can pick up in the
street, as long as you can work the polisher properly...
All the clever toys just make it quicker and less painful...
celia
illustration but this one
http://www.coeln1475.de/mirrors/mailbox.univie.ac/059.jpg
seems to be just holding the nail by its point.
It seems less likely to me but if they were used like this
it would explain why some holes went all the way through
the plate and some only half way through.
Celia
jackli...@earthlink.net
I have seen one site
(http://www.colchestertreasurehunting.co.uk/torcs.htm) that says the
work is Celtic or near Celtic, the clasp is not apparently, but the
materials are Roman. This would fit in with the cable or rope I cited
from Pompeii, I can see a technique of making cords from wire and rope
from the cords, being an attractive idea for someone who wanted to look
really vouty ( to ressurect a Slim Gaillard word).