Still nothing but crap on here then.........
Michael W Cook
Rumour of a Castles and Bayeux Tapestry thread brought me back......
Must have been mistaken Intel I got, all we have on here is the Cut 'n'
Paste king of Usenet still proving to the world what an idiot he is.
43 threads on my server.
21 of which are headed by Hines and his garbage.
Nuff said.
MWC
Michael W Cook
Castles Abbeys and Medieval Buildings
http://www.castles-abbeys.co.uk
--
Paul J Gans
>A month away, it's been a while.
>Rumour of a Castles and Bayeux Tapestry thread brought me back......
>Must have been mistaken Intel I got, all we have on here is the Cut 'n'
>Paste king of Usenet still proving to the world what an idiot he is.
>43 threads on my server.
>21 of which are headed by Hines and his garbage.
>Nuff said.
>MWC
>Michael W Cook
Yup. It is rather sad. I've got almost nothing to
say here either.
But it is good to see you back.
---- Paul J. Gans
Dayle Wilke
"Michael W Cook" <crusader_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BC828E70.1C104%crusader_p...@hotmail.com...
find it reassuring that some of the "regulars" are still checking in.
My husband and I were fortunate to visit London in November.
While visiting, one of my goals was to maybe see the original
copies of Domesday Book. I found it interesting that few seemed
to know where it (they)actually were. Some did not know the Public Records
had moved to Kew. A worker at the British Museum said it was on
display at the British Library. A librarian at the Library said it was on
public
display in the Public Records office. An online source said it was stored
in the Public Records office and for preservation's sake was rarely shown
(this seemed reasonable). Another website said it could be viewed by anyone
who could read it. A policeman who claimed to be an amateur historian
said it was stored in Greenwich. We never made it but the hunt was fun. We
had a
wonderful time and are planning a return within the year. London was very
kind to us!
.
Also, Michael, your Castles and Abbeys website is really, really nice! Have
been auditing
a couple of classes on the history of Britain and Ireland from prehistoric
times thru the
High Middle Ages. I have directed some of the "young folk" (of whom I am not
one) to the site.
They have been duly impressed.
Don't you and Paul leave. Have missed Renia, also. Surely something of
interest and
on topic will show itself. Inspite of you know who!
Cleo
>
>
>
Michael W Cook
wrote on 21/3/04 1:15 am:
Thank you, Paul.
If I had more time I'd subscribe to the Medieval Group you run, at least it
doesn't have Hines' cut 'n' paste crap drowning everything else out.
Cheers
Michael
Michael W Cook
wrote on 21/3/04 6:01 am:
Well I'm glad you had a nice time, despite your wild goose chase.
I last saw Domesday many years ago in Salisbury Cathedral, although I'm
sure it's possible to view it at Kew, I know Magna Carta is there.
> Also, Michael, your Castles and Abbeys website is really, really nice! Have
> been auditing
> a couple of classes on the history of Britain and Ireland from prehistoric
> times thru the
> High Middle Ages. I have directed some of the "young folk" (of whom I am not
> one) to the site.
> They have been duly impressed.
That's very kind of you to say, thank you, it may be coming out in book form
next year, but I'm still negotiating with publishers at the moment.
> Don't you and Paul leave. Have missed Renia, also. Surely something of
> interest and
> on topic will show itself. Inspite of you know who!
> Cleo
We'll always be here, Cleo, after almost eight years you tend to become part
of the fixtures and fittings, despite all the crap that floats around to
distract you.
Kind regards
Michael
Vlad the Emailer
"Michael W Cook" <crusader_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BC828E70.1C104%crusader_p...@hotmail.com...
>
> Rumour of a Castles and Bayeux Tapestry thread brought me back......
>
> Must have been mistaken Intel I got, all we have on here is the Cut 'n'
> Paste king of Usenet still proving to the world what an idiot he is.
>
> 43 threads on my server.
>
> 21 of which are headed by Hines and his garbage.
>
> Nuff said.
Time to get "medieaval" again perhaps?
Why does this twisted old fruit bother, does anybody know? From all I have
seen (so far) he is no more than an object of ridicule and a half living
target for cruel satire. As he is obviously homosexual I would have thought
Mr Hines would have been more sensitive and less unpleasant in his output
than he appears to be - or is he one who enjoys getting his botty smacked in
public? I find it hard to believe he was ever a sailor, or a member of any
military organisation. Does anybody know of his record, I imagine he must be
some wet-behind-the-ears student at some minor American university.
Vlad
Peter Jason
"Michael W Cook" <crusader_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BC828E70.1C104%crusader_p...@hotmail.com...
Paul J Gans
Thank you Cleo. I'm not going anywhere. And I hope that Michael
isn't either.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>in article c3iqcc$k6g$5...@reader1.panix.com, Paul J Gans at ga...@panix.com
>wrote on 21/3/04 1:15 am:
>> Michael W Cook <crusader_p...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> A month away, it's been a while.
>>
>>> Rumour of a Castles and Bayeux Tapestry thread brought me back......
>>
>>> Must have been mistaken Intel I got, all we have on here is the Cut 'n'
>>> Paste king of Usenet still proving to the world what an idiot he is.
>>
>>> 43 threads on my server.
>>
>>> 21 of which are headed by Hines and his garbage.
>>
>>> Nuff said.
>>
>>> MWC
>>
>>> Michael W Cook
>>
>> Yup. It is rather sad. I've got almost nothing to
>> say here either.
>>
>> But it is good to see you back.
>>
>> ---- Paul J. Gans
>Thank you, Paul.
>If I had more time I'd subscribe to the Medieval Group you run, at least it
>doesn't have Hines' cut 'n' paste crap drowning everything else out.
I'm just the minder. It normally needs no control at all. The
folks are generally civilized and the subjects quite varied.
The number of posts per day ranges from one or two up to 20 or
30, depending on the subject and the interest.
Details at
http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/mediev-l
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>I don't remember you. Maybe re-introductions are in order?
He's a regular, Peter. He also has a day job. A real
one. It keeps him away sometimes for a good while.
But he's only been gone a month.
----- Paul J. Gans
E. C. Lee
> Peter Jason <pa...@colonel.com.au> wrote:
> >I don't remember you. Maybe re-introductions are in order?
>
> He's a regular, Peter. He also has a day job. A real
> one. It keeps him away sometimes for a good while.
>
> But he's only been gone a month.
>
> ----- Paul J. Gans
He'a also knows a great deal about many things medieval. His web page is fantastic.
Welcome back, Michael. Hope you can stay awhile.
Eve
erilar
Guess whom I just added to my killfile? It's easier on him than
impaling, but still pleasant for me.
Really folks, more of you ought to do the same to more of these loons. I
only know they're still around because you reply to them.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no such thing as too many books. Bookshelves, on the other hand . . .
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
Michael W Cook
jasper...@outgun.com wrote on 21/3/04 8:36 pm:
Another Dick-Head nails his colours to the mast on SHM.
.........Albeit behind a stupid name..............
I've two options I suppose:
1. Spar with the little wanker and give him a good kicking.
2. Ignore him and refuse to waste my time playing his jerk-off games.
Seeing as time is at a premium just lately...... I'll choose option two.
Next time I want to waste my life away arguing with an arsehole like you,
you can be assured your name will be near the top of my list.
Now do us all a favour and FUCK OFF.
MWC
Michael W Cook
afro...@yahoo.com wrote on 22/3/04 3:51 am:
> Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:<c3l5b9$aaf$1...@reader1.panix.com>...
>> Peter Jason <pa...@colonel.com.au> wrote:
>>> I don't remember you. Maybe re-introductions are in order?
>>
>> He's a regular, Peter. He also has a day job. A real
>> one. It keeps him away sometimes for a good while.
>>
>> But he's only been gone a month.
>>
>> ----- Paul J. Gans
>
> He'a also knows a great deal about many things medieval. His web page is
> fantastic.
>
> Welcome back, Michael. Hope you can stay awhile.
>
> Eve
Thank you, Eve, your kind words flatter me.
There's not much to keep anyone here for long with an interest in Medieval
History, unless you want to read off-topic posts and Hines' Cut 'n' Pastes.
The group is in terminal decline I'm afraid to say, and is a shadow of its
former self.
Kind regards
Michael
C A Candy
Michael W Cook <crusader_p...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>There's not much to keep anyone here for long with an interest in Medieval
>History, unless you want to read off-topic posts and Hines' Cut 'n' Pastes.
>
>The group is in terminal decline I'm afraid to say, and is a shadow of its
>former self.
Some of us still post material, but for the most part it either gets lost
in the shuffle or otherwise fails to be addressed. My last posting on the
usage of propoganda regarding the military actions in Scotland in 1336 saw
no replies whatsoever, though through private communication I do know it
was read. Most of my material - and much of the medieval material in
general - goes that route. It's interesting, we read it, but it does not
generate lengthy debate unless it is actually a religious issue (KRS,
etc.).
If I had to point to any particular trends that are making things 'worse'
than they used to be, I'd identify three. One, the discipline that many
people showed towards ignoring offtopic postings has broken down. I
appreciate the visceral pleasure of firing off a snappy comeback, but that
gets its comeback, etc., etc., etc. Second, people are so upset or
obsessed by current political trends that they feel the need to speak out
about it, regardless of venue. That the debates aren't actually debates
but are two sides keeping their faith and shouting down the others as
heretics doesn't seem to matter much. Third, the massive crosspostings of
material are bringing in outsiders, replying in their forums, that we see
and add to the overall noise ratio.
On the other hand, the medieval material generally falls into two
categories: either general queries or requests for information or
commentary on specific problems, incidents, or other research items.
Some people may not like the general 'help me!' from students, but they do
tend to generate some of our longest and most involved threads on medieval
topics. The other type can have some interesting elements, but often die
quickly for lack of interest or lack of (perceived) ability to speak on
the issue.
How to resolve this? I'm not sure. I certainly can't see people calming
down from the throes of their political apoplexy and refraining from
writing about it on the group. One minor thing that I do think would be
helpful for people to do is to change the subject heading when topics
(like this one!) move from a general 'we never talk medieval!' post into
actually talking about something medieval. That way, people just glancing
over subject headings can actually see the topic, rather than dismissing
an entire thread not knowing it has mutated into something worthwhile.
More intense changes would require a lot more commitment than most of us
have at present. To really generate discussion would require most of us
to try to start a medieval-topic thread once a month, say, and be active
participants in the threads that are ongoing. However, as I know that I
can't promise that of myself, I certainly don't see everyone else doing it
either.
Cheers,
Chris
------------------
Christopher Candy
Department of History
University of Durham
43 North Bailey
Durham DH1 3EX
United Kingdom
+44 191 334 1045
C.A....@durham.ac.uk
Inger E Johansson
"C A Candy" <c.a....@durham.ac.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:c3nb5r$i...@altair.dur.ac.uk...
Chris,
most of the interesting debates re English Medieval History are discussed in
LMB and the later Roman Age early Medieval Age debates are flowering in
Imperial Rome. Of course there are some OT posts there as well but not as
much as here.
Inger E
C A Candy
Inger E Johansson <inger_e....@notelia.com> wrote:
>most of the interesting debates re English Medieval History are discussed in
>LMB and the later Roman Age early Medieval Age debates are flowering in
>Imperial Rome. Of course there are some OT posts there as well but not as
>much as here.
This completely misses the point. I happen to be on the LMB mailing list,
so know what they are discussing. Which is fine... but has no bearing
whatsoever to how this group conducts itself. I am a firm believer in
'the more the merrier': I want to see all of them as worthwhile, not as
one being a replacement or a substitute for another. So while knowing
about LMB is fine... I don't want to find us in an either-or situation.
Martin Reboul
"C A Candy" <c.a....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:c3ni13$s...@altair.dur.ac.uk...
> In article <axG7c.87083$dP1.2...@newsc.telia.net>,
> Inger E Johansson <inger_e....@notelia.com> wrote:
>
> >most of the interesting debates re English Medieval History are discussed
in
> >LMB and the later Roman Age early Medieval Age debates are flowering in
> >Imperial Rome. Of course there are some OT posts there as well but not as
> >much as here.
>
> This completely misses the point. I happen to be on the LMB mailing list,
> so know what they are discussing. Which is fine... but has no bearing
> whatsoever to how this group conducts itself. I am a firm believer in
> 'the more the merrier': I want to see all of them as worthwhile, not as
> one being a replacement or a substitute for another. So while knowing
> about LMB is fine... I don't want to find us in an either-or situation.
The problem is, things are getting a bit 'stale' here, medieval-wise anyway.
We have discussed most subjects ad nauseum and discussing them again (without
'fresh blood' or new material) inevitably involves repetition and/or the usual
rows.
Richard III, Hastings, the BT, the Tudors, the Black Death, Feudalism, Ropbin
Hood, the Dark Ages, archery, gunpowder, armour, Arthur, food, military
tactics, longevity, industry, transport, medicine, art, travel, religion and
even the Kensington Runestone have been literally done to death, and we all
know where everyone stands and what they will probably say - or not say.
Although a few areas remain to be decided (such as the real truth about horse
harnesses), interest in these 'old grounds' seems to be waning.
Whether that is a good thing or not I'm unsure, but if we don't move on to new
areas of interest, discovery and controversy, I fear we will all go the way of
all those we study - dead.
Thinking about starting up new threads is daunting, as I still have a narrow
field of interest which few others here follow with any enthusiasm. Does
anyone have any suggestions - that's all I can say.
All I can suggest are vague and highly specialised subjects such as
glass-working, grave furnishings, embalming methods, metallurgy,
superstitions, sexuality, psychology and perhaps crime and punishment,
although all those have been covered in some detail already. Perhaps
archaeology, anthropology and forensic science might provide some 'new avenues
of delight'?
Maybe we have 'sorted' the middle ages to our satisfaction though - there may
be nothing else to 'discover' or discuss? It sometimes feels like it, as I
sometimes feel as if there is little mystery left. In that case, this group
has been a great success and done a marvellous job, as when I first came here
I had many questions and gaps in my knowledge, which have been mostly filled
thanks to everyone here.
Difficult....?
Cheers
Martin
Brett K. Heath
[...]
>>> 21 of which are headed by Hines and his garbage.
>>> Nuff said.
>> Time to get "medieaval" again perhaps?
>> Why does this twisted old fruit bother, does anybody
>> know? From all I have seen (so far) he is no more than an
>> object of ridicule and a half living target for cruel
>> satire. As he is obviously homosexual I would have
>> thought Mr Hines would have been more sensitive and less
>> unpleasant in his output than he appears to be - or is he
>> one who enjoys getting his botty smacked in public? I
>> find it hard to believe he was ever a sailor, or a member
>> of any military organisation. Does anybody know of his
>> record, I imagine he must be some wet-behind-the-ears
>> student at some minor American university.
>> Vlad
> Another Dick-Head nails his colours to the mast on SHM.
Ummm...., just curious Michael but why do you object to Vlad
saying many of the same things about Hines that you've been
saying for years?
You _did_ realize he was talking about Hines didn't you?
Brett K. Heath
benjo maso
"Martin Reboul" <mar...@SPAMFUKreboul1471.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c3nn2n$djb$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
So what about courts, courtly behaviour, literature, troubadours, trouvères
and Minnesänger, popular culture, love, prostitution, children, death,
leprosy and its meanings, the peace of god, animals and their
representations, the monopoly of violence or rather the lack of it and its
solutions, state formation, written and oral law, jurisdiction, the rise
individualism, honour and masculinity, sin and shame, theology and politics,
etc.?
Benjo Maso
C A Candy
Martin Reboul <ram...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Maybe we have 'sorted' the middle ages to our satisfaction though - there may
>be nothing else to 'discover' or discuss? It sometimes feels like it, as I
>sometimes feel as if there is little mystery left. In that case, this group
>has been a great success and done a marvellous job, as when I first came here
>I had many questions and gaps in my knowledge, which have been mostly filled
>thanks to everyone here.
While I admittedly do this for a living, I don't think even those subjects
that are regularly done are 'done to death'... just perhaps particular
aspects of them. A lot of times, it is difficult to realize all the
aspects we haven't looked at. Take my work, for instance. I suppose that
I'm considered as a military historian... yet the vast majority of my work
has nothing to do with actual battles. Instead, I look at a great deal of
economic and political data, examining the military structure of England
in the early fourteenth century. To understand that, I have to have
acquaintance with everything from how customs dues are assigned to
comparitive rates of pay to buildings costs to naval construction, etc.,
etc., etc. Some of my more fascinating tidbits came from the
interconnections of royal officials, and the surprisingly narrow range of
individuals who carry the entire war effort.
The difficulty is how to translate all of that rich detail into a
discussion that engages people here in a lengthy yet rewarding thread. It
isn't like writing a thesis, article, or book - the aims are different,
and if I wrote as I do for my academic work, I normally would get little
response. Others may not have that wealth of knowledge in specific areas
to draw on, but they certainly can think along those lines, and it might
be good for discussion.
Martin Reboul
"benjo maso" <benjo...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:c3nqiu$287876$1...@ID-75468.news.uni-berlin.de...
All good stuff Benjo... for some reason, leprosy 'stands out' in particular.
Did Henry IV suffer from it, and who else did? Another that comes to mind is
symbolism in art, which is absolutely fascinating, and has been little
discussed here. I shall get working on it....
Cheers
Martin
Paul J Gans
>Cheers,
>Chris
I generally agree with this. But nobody knows everything.
What I know, outside of odd snatches here and there, falls
between the dates 1066-1347. And most of that is England
vs. France.
At the moment I'm rather deeply involved in several other
important projects and end up posting here around midnight
(local time of course). That isn't the time to start even
mini-research projects. ;-)
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>Difficult....?
> Cheers
> Martin
Ok. If you want something new, here's a bit I cribbed from
a post to mediev-l:
Evidently D. Courtwright's _Forces of Habit_ (2001) discusses
the medieval use of cannabis. The reference is to pages 39-41.
I have not seen the book and cannot vouch for anything.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>So what about courts, courtly behaviour, literature, troubadours, trouv?res
>and Minnes?nger, popular culture, love, prostitution, children, death,
>leprosy and its meanings, the peace of god, animals and their
>representations, the monopoly of violence or rather the lack of it and its
>solutions, state formation, written and oral law, jurisdiction, the rise
>individualism, honour and masculinity, sin and shame, theology and politics,
>etc.?
>Benjo Maso
Well, we've had discussions on chivalry, love, prostitution,
children's death, written and oral law, and honor. We've also
discussed medieval peasant housing, what was used instead of
toilet paper, and any number of other engaging topics.
But there is always room for another go-round with a different
point of view.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>> So what about courts, courtly behaviour, literature, troubadours, trouv?res
>> and Minnes?nger, popular culture, love, prostitution, children, death,
>> leprosy and its meanings, the peace of god, animals and their
>> representations, the monopoly of violence or rather the lack of it and its
>> solutions, state formation, written and oral law, jurisdiction, the rise
>> individualism, honour and masculinity, sin and shame, theology and politics,
>> etc.?
>All good stuff Benjo... for some reason, leprosy 'stands out' in particular.
>Did Henry IV suffer from it, and who else did? Another that comes to mind is
>symbolism in art, which is absolutely fascinating, and has been little
>discussed here. I shall get working on it....
> Cheers
> Martin
If I recall correctly, leprosy was commonly diagnosed in the 12th
century, but soon after seems to have almost vanished, at least
in England.
I know this is another of those medical questions, but does anyone
have a clue as to if this is true and if it is, why did it happen?
---- Paul J. Gans
benjo maso
>
> > etc.?
>
> All good stuff Benjo... for some reason, leprosy 'stands out' in
particular.
I think it's a fascinating subject. On the one hand, it was considered to be
a sign of evil or a punishment for immorality and all kind of sins. There
were theories on conspiracies by lepers to infect the rest on the population
with their disease, etc. On the other hand it was also seen as a grace of
God and even as a sign of holiness. In Ordericus there is every fifty pages
or so an abbot or another monk who's prayer to become a leper is answered.
> Did Henry IV suffer from it, and who else did?
Henry IV suffered from a skin disease. It might have been leprosy, but it's
far from certain. It's also possible that his enemies trying to blacken his
repuitation spread the rumor that he was a leper. The best known case of a
king suffering from leprosy is Baldwin IV of Jerusalem.
Another that comes to mind is
> symbolism in art, which is absolutely fascinating, and has been little
> discussed here. I shall get working on it....
That's what I also meant with "the representation of animals."
Benjo Maso
benjo maso
> Martin Reboul <mar...@spamfukreboul1471.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> If I recall correctly, leprosy was commonly diagnosed in the 12th
> century, but soon after seems to have almost vanished, at least
> in England.
Is that so? On the continent it was only gradually disappearing, although it
it would take another three centuries before it more or less disappeared. In
Eastern Europe and the Balkan there were still incidental cases in the first
ghalf of the 20th century.
>
> I know this is another of those medical questions, but does anyone
> have a clue as to if this is true and if it is, why did it happen?
A major role was certainly played by exclusion. If it vanished in England
long before on the continent, it was perhaps because the central government
was much stronger which made it easier to take certain measures.
Benjo Maso
benjo maso
> Well, we've had discussions on chivalry, love, prostitution,
> children's death, written and oral law, and honor. We've also
> discussed medieval peasant housing, what was used instead of
> toilet paper, and any number of other engaging topics.
Ah, you already solved the problem of fin'amors, of "courtly" love? I'll
look it uo.
Benjo Maso
Paul J Gans
>Benjo Maso
I'm speaking of England.
I don't *know* that it actually vanished. What vanished were
mentions of lepers, places of refuge and treatment of lepers,
etc. It was as if it had stopped being a problem. And there
is no suggestion that lepers were dealt with in any violent
way.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>Benjo Maso
Do we ever solve anything?
I recall suggesting that courtly knights did not curry
favor with various fair maidens -- to the point of getting
seriously injured in tournaments for them -- just for the
honor alone...
Many felt that I was unchivalric.
---- Paul J. Gans
benjo maso
If it isn't mentioned anymore in England, it's almost sure it disappeared.
In France there are a lot of data about leprosies. The first were
established in the beginning of the 12th century, their number rose until
1250, remained almost a hundred years more or less stable, and gradually
dropped from 1340 on.
Benjo Maso
benjo maso
> benjo maso <benjo...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
> >"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
> >news:c3o4d1$c25$5...@reader1.panix.com...
>
>
> >> Well, we've had discussions on chivalry, love, prostitution,
> >> children's death, written and oral law, and honor. We've also
> >> discussed medieval peasant housing, what was used instead of
> >> toilet paper, and any number of other engaging topics.
>
>
> >Ah, you already solved the problem of fin'amors, of "courtly" love? I'll
> >look it uo.
>
> >Benjo Maso
>
> Do we ever solve anything?
Of course, I used the word ironically!
>
> I recall suggesting that courtly knights did not curry
> favor with various fair maidens -- to the point of getting
> seriously injured in tournaments for them -- just for the
> honor alone...
>
> Many felt that I was unchivalric.
As you probably know, in the first half of the 12th century the word "honor"
had a rather concrete meaning. A man with honor was a man with much land or
many possessions. So why couldn't those knights fight for honor alone?
Benjo Maso
E. C. Lee
A great deal of this has been discussed as well. I recall taking part
in a lot of discussion on courts, courtly behaviour, literature,
troubadours, trouvères and Minnesänger, love, prostitution, children,
and a few interesting etcs. such has the concept of anger.
But if you have ideas concerning these things, perhaps you could offer
something new?
Another way to go, of course, is in new directions beyond France,
England and Germany. There are a few here who do try to venture
beyond this, but unfortunately this doesn't open up enough to the
group as a whole. Perhaps if we do a compare and contrast between
different cultures within the Middle Ages?
Eve
Paul J Gans
Curious. Perhaps the English exported theirs?
I'll try to remember where I saw this information.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
But of course... ;-)
Indeed, your mention of 'honor' reminds me that the word
is still used in that sense in England, I believe. One
can inherit the "honor" of some place.
--- Paul J. Gans
C A Candy
Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
>I generally agree with this. But nobody knows everything.
>What I know, outside of odd snatches here and there, falls
>between the dates 1066-1347. And most of that is England
>vs. France.
Anyone notice my posts are nearly always Scotland vs. England? :) Rather
similar to a running joke here at Durham. One of our colleagues here is
an expert on Thomas Grey's _Scalacronica_, and we used to joke that in any
research seminar, he would find some way to bring up the chronicle in a
question or as a comparison to whatever the paper of the day had been
about - regardless of how far apart they might seem. Totally unfair
claim, but with a germ of truth to it. He knows that chronicle inside out
- so he has the ability to make those connections that the rest of us
wouldn't.
That reminds me, he should have a new translation ready in a year or
two...
>At the moment I'm rather deeply involved in several other
>important projects and end up posting here around midnight
>(local time of course). That isn't the time to start even
>mini-research projects. ;-)
My big research project goes in next week. Lord help me.
As for research projects, I cheat. I write it up as a text file elsewhere
during the day, refine it, then send it off once I'm satisfied with it.
That's one reason the 'research' posts look different than standard
responses like this one.
David C. Pugh
news:c3oa5d$ef7$2...@reader1.panix.com...
> >As you probably know, in the first half of the 12th century the word
"honor"
> >had a rather concrete meaning. A man with honor was a man with much land
or
> >many possessions. So why couldn't those knights fight for honor alone?
>
> But of course... ;-)
>
> Indeed, your mention of 'honor' reminds me that the word
> is still used in that sense in England, I believe. One
> can inherit the "honor" of some place.
Among lawyers, maybe, I would say that this usage is wholly extinct in
ordinary language, even in England. Anyone know different, I'd be interested
to hear.
--
David C. Pugh
"From ghouls and ghosties and long-leggety beasties, and things that go bump
on the Net; Good Lord, deliver us."
To mail me, replace biblical character with his dad.
Martin Reboul
"David C. Pugh" <solom...@online.no> wrote in message
news:G3S7c.2402$zf6....@news4.e.nsc.no...
> "Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> skrev i melding
> news:c3oa5d$ef7$2...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> > >As you probably know, in the first half of the 12th century the word
> "honor"
> > >had a rather concrete meaning. A man with honor was a man with much land
> or
> > >many possessions. So why couldn't those knights fight for honor alone?
> >
> > But of course... ;-)
> >
> > Indeed, your mention of 'honor' reminds me that the word
> > is still used in that sense in England, I believe. One
> > can inherit the "honor" of some place.
>
>
> Among lawyers, maybe, I would say that this usage is wholly extinct in
> ordinary language, even in England. Anyone know different, I'd be interested
> to hear.
Well, we have the "Honours List", whereby titles and letters are handed out to
sad old gits and greedy basta... erm, I mean "worthy persons deserving of
recognition for their service to the nation"... something like that anyway.
The word 'honour' has more than one meaning, and is much misused. For
instance, MP's are referred to as 'honourable gentleman/ladies' which we all
know is not always actually the case. Judges are always referred to as 'Yer
Honour' in Court (unless you want to do a stretch for contempt). 'The
Hounourable' often preceeds the names of minor aristocrats....
All in all, it is used in that context to imply importance and position.
However, a "man of honour" need not necessarily have position, power,
breeding, education, the right tie, handshake or even a decent suit. It means
someone who keeps his word, always behaves as a gentleman and does 'the right
thing', no matter what it costs him (or her) personally - even their life.
Such a man (or woman) is 'honourable' no matter what their station, and there
are actually a few left believe it or not.
There is then "an affair of honour" which (sadly IMHO) has now gone out of
fashion and is strictly illegal. When two men (or women I suppose... very
rarely) of honour meet, and for some reason one impugns or besmirches the
reputation and 'honour' of the other, they were (in happier times) allowed to
prove their honour... or die, depending on who won the fight. No cheating
allowed - most dishonourable.
A funny word honour - it means 'respect' in one way, is a title in another
(though seldom as a 'word' really applies to those that it is used as a prefix
or address for), also describes a style of behaviour, yet is a characteristic
that all of us can exhibit as well. I'd not say it has fallen out of use in
the UK, but it applies mostly to the dishing out of gongs at awards ceremonies
nowadays - a sad reflection on our society.
Cheers
Martin
Martin Reboul
"C A Candy" <c.a....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:c3ogqe$5...@altair.dur.ac.uk...
At least the old getout of "unreadable writing" no longer applies in this day
and age (how it all comes back..."it looks as if a drunken spider had fallen
into an inkwell and staggered across the page - do it again boy!"). Mind you,
is that a good thing I sometimes wonder? One less excuse....
There is no such thing as 'cheating' I always say, as long as you put *some*
creative effort into something (even just disguising the fact you copied it -
you still must have read and understood it at least!).
Cheers
Martin
Paul J Gans
>>I generally agree with this. But nobody knows everything.
>>What I know, outside of odd snatches here and there, falls
>>between the dates 1066-1347. And most of that is England
>>vs. France.
>Anyone notice my posts are nearly always Scotland vs. England? :)
Are they? Wow!!! I never noticed.... ;-)
>Rather
>similar to a running joke here at Durham. One of our colleagues here is
>an expert on Thomas Grey's _Scalacronica_, and we used to joke that in any
>research seminar, he would find some way to bring up the chronicle in a
>question or as a comparison to whatever the paper of the day had been
>about - regardless of how far apart they might seem. Totally unfair
>claim, but with a germ of truth to it. He knows that chronicle inside out
>- so he has the ability to make those connections that the rest of us
>wouldn't.
Happens in all fields. Chemistry is no exception.
>That reminds me, he should have a new translation ready in a year or
>two...
>>At the moment I'm rather deeply involved in several other
>>important projects and end up posting here around midnight
>>(local time of course). That isn't the time to start even
>>mini-research projects. ;-)
>My big research project goes in next week. Lord help me.
Good luck!
>As for research projects, I cheat. I write it up as a text file elsewhere
>during the day, refine it, then send it off once I'm satisfied with it.
>That's one reason the 'research' posts look different than standard
>responses like this one.
Well, in spite of the feelings of one loon who never posts
anything original, this is NOT a seminar. One might do
that on-line. One person could prepare a paper, references
and all, and the rest of us could then critique it and each
other, references and all.
Might be fun, but then, that's what some of us do in meat life.
This group is supposed to be more relaxed, where folks can
speak freely without having to look up every single thing
prior to posting. If I were to do that, I might as well
write a paper and have it published.[*]
--- Paul J. Gans
[*] I note with some horror the publication delays in
medieval studies (and, I assume in the humanities in
general). If we had such delays in the sciences the
paper would be out-of-date long before it got into print.
I've a book chapter coming out based on a paper I gave
so long ago I forget what is in it.
P.
Michael W Cook
bhe...@csun1.csun.edu wrote on 22/3/04 10:09 pm:
No, I read the first four lines and it seemed aimed at me.
E. C. Lee
and I'll get to it. Animals, well, again what specifically? Most
obviously there's the symbolism of the animals for the gospels.
The most significant book discussing Medieval symbols is the Emile
Male classic, "The Gothic Image".
Of course, almost any art history book will discuss this to some
extent. There is a great book that discusses symbols depicting the
outsiders of Medieval society. I think the author is Roberta
Melnikoff. Or is that just someone I went to high school with? I
could check on it if anyone is interested. Might even have symbols
for depicting those with leperosy.
Michael Camille did a wonderful book on sexual and love symbolism
called "The Medieval Book of Love". This, of course, included animal
symbolism such as that of the hare and the dog, but also such
wonderful symbols as chess for the game of love.
Eve
Manny Olds
> Rumour of a Castles and Bayeux Tapestry thread brought me back......
> Must have been mistaken Intel I got, all we have on here is the Cut 'n'
> Paste king of Usenet still proving to the world what an idiot he is.
I thought I'd look in again, too. No joy. Thinking of the tragedy of the
commons makes me think what a great discussion we *ought* to be able to
have here on the use of commons-like resources in medieval Europe. It's a
real shame.
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"So the only reason to be polite is that cyberspace social life, like all
forms of community life, doesn't work as it is supposed to unless
participants voluntarily restrain themselves from spoiling it."
-- Miss Manners (Judith Martin)
David Read
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:c3pfnd$pip$6...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> Well, in spite of the feelings of one loon who never posts
> anything original, this is NOT a seminar. One might do
> that on-line. One person could prepare a paper, references
> and all, and the rest of us could then critique it and each
> other, references and all.
>
> Might be fun, but then, that's what some of us do in meat life.
Yes, should be a lot of fun for those of us who don't do it in meat loaf.
>
> This group is supposed to be more relaxed,
Must have missed that in s.h.m.'s charter...
>where folks can
> speak freely without having to look up every single thing
> prior to posting.
I doubt whether there is anyone who looks up every single thing prior to
posting. There might well be some people who never look anything up, before
or after posting, and there are some who occasionally look things up prior
to posting whenever they believe it suits their purposes to do so. There are
also those who enjoy looking things up prior to posting and who appreciate
the efforts of others who also take the same trouble. And there are some
benighted souls who resent those who post in such a way, especially when
their memories are shown up to be so sieve-like.
> If I were to do that, I might as well
> write a paper and have it published.[*]
>
> --- Paul J. Gans
>
> [*] I note with some horror the publication delays in
> medieval studies (and, I assume in the humanities in
> general). If we had such delays in the sciences the
> paper would be out-of-date long before it got into print.
>
> I've a book chapter coming out based on a paper I gave
> so long ago I forget what is in it.
Indeed. But we all have a pretty good idea...
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/s/a/saw23/AVISTA/PUBS/villardsleg.html
"Chapter 9: Paul J. Gans, The Medieval Horse Harness: Revolution or
Evolution? A Case Study in Technological Change
"Paul Gans is a Professor of Chemistry at New York University. His interests
in medieval studies lie primarily in the areas of medieval technology and
military history. He has given several papers on these topics at the
International Congress on Medieval Studies held annually in Kalamazoo,
Michigan."
.......................
I had to look it up before posting....
By the way, did any UK Radio 4 listeners catch the last edition of "The
Message" ? There was an interesting debate about the "incestuous" and "cosy
coterie" world of peer reviews, book reviews and dust-jacket blurbs. It
concerned literature rather than history, but I see no reason why the debate
should not be relevant in all fields of publishing.
Listen to it here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/rams/themessage_current.ram
cheers,
David Read
>
> P.
Paul J Gans
>"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> skrev i melding
>news:c3oa5d$ef7$2...@reader1.panix.com...
>> >As you probably know, in the first half of the 12th century the word
>"honor"
>> >had a rather concrete meaning. A man with honor was a man with much land
>or
>> >many possessions. So why couldn't those knights fight for honor alone?
>>
>> But of course... ;-)
>>
>> Indeed, your mention of 'honor' reminds me that the word
>> is still used in that sense in England, I believe. One
>> can inherit the "honor" of some place.
> Among lawyers, maybe, I would say that this usage is wholly extinct in
>ordinary language, even in England. Anyone know different, I'd be interested
>to hear.
Honor among lawyers? ;-)
But quick someone, check the OED!
---- Paul J. Gans
C A Candy
Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
>C A Candy <c.a....@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>>In article <c3o3ap$c25$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
>
>>during the day, refine it, then send it off once I'm satisfied with it.
>>That's one reason the 'research' posts look different than standard
>>responses like this one.
>
>Well, in spite of the feelings of one loon who never posts
>anything original, this is NOT a seminar. One might do
>that on-line. One person could prepare a paper, references
>and all, and the rest of us could then critique it and each
>other, references and all.
Paul, you've done this before. I've never claimed this to be a seminar,
and as usual, you mistake my discussing my _personal_ style as what I
expect everyone else to follow. Thought we dealt with this the first time
'round. Especially as I mention in the paragraph you quoted that other
times I don't research things through in detail before posting.
One reason I mentioned how I come around to those detailed posts of mine
is so that people can see how it does not necessarily involve huge blocks
of time sitting around composing a post. Instead, it builds up over time
- a bit here, a bit there. Call it a suggestion, an anecdote, a
possibility. But don't sound so harsh about it. There's certainly room
for all types of posts to this group.
>Might be fun, but then, that's what some of us do in meat life.
Including me. So why does it sound to me like you're talking to me across
a divide we're both on the same side of?
>This group is supposed to be more relaxed, where folks can
>speak freely without having to look up every single thing
>prior to posting. If I were to do that, I might as well
>write a paper and have it published.[*]
I never claimed it was. Nor have most people. This is not a case to make
sweeping, general statements from.
Paul J Gans
>http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/s/a/saw23/AVISTA/PUBS/villardsleg.html
Yeah, but the book is not actually out yet. And the actual
publication date keeps slipping further and further.
>.......................
>I had to look it up before posting....
>By the way, did any UK Radio 4 listeners catch the last edition of "The
>Message" ? There was an interesting debate about the "incestuous" and "cosy
>coterie" world of peer reviews, book reviews and dust-jacket blurbs. It
>concerned literature rather than history, but I see no reason why the debate
>should not be relevant in all fields of publishing.
>Listen to it here:
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/rams/themessage_current.ram
>cheers,
>David Read
---- Paul J. Gans
>>
>> P.
Simon Pugh
<ga...@panix.com> writes
One theory for the disappearance of leprosy is the rise of tuberculosis,
the organisms are related and cross protect.
There is also a theory that some of what was called leprosy was in fact
treponemal infection, in other words related to syphilis like infection.
--
Simon Pugh
Remove X for email
erilar
<ram...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> The problem is, things are getting a bit 'stale' here, medieval-wise
> anyway.
> We have discussed most subjects ad nauseum and discussing them again
> (without
> 'fresh blood' or new material) inevitably involves repetition and/or the
> usual
> rows.
We do come back to them at times because a newcomer has questions in
need of answers or at least a little consideration.
My own suggestion would be to try to move beyond the BT, but there only
seem to be about three of us really interested in the HRE, for instance.
Or if we must hang out in the BT, how about PRE 1066 ? Or is that
heresy?
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no such thing as too many books. Bookshelves, on the other hand . . .
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
erilar
<benjo...@chello.nl> wrote:
> So what about courts, courtly behaviour, literature, troubadours,
> trouvères
> and Minnesänger, popular culture, love, prostitution, children, death,
> leprosy and its meanings, the peace of god, animals and their
> representations, the monopoly of violence or rather the lack of it and
> its
> solutions, state formation, written and oral law, jurisdiction, the rise
> individualism, honour and masculinity, sin and shame, theology and
> politics,
> etc.?
That's all fun stuff 8-) The problem seems to be to start something
that has an element or two of controversy to get people to react with
comments.
Simon Pugh
<benjo...@chello.nl> writes
>
>"Martin Reboul" <mar...@SPAMFUKreboul1471.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:c3o25l$mc2$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> > etc.?
>>
>> All good stuff Benjo... for some reason, leprosy 'stands out' in
>particular.
>
>
>I think it's a fascinating subject. On the one hand, it was considered to be
>a sign of evil or a punishment for immorality and all kind of sins. There
>were theories on conspiracies by lepers to infect the rest on the population
>with their disease, etc. On the other hand it was also seen as a grace of
>God and even as a sign of holiness. In Ordericus there is every fifty pages
>or so an abbot or another monk who's prayer to become a leper is answered.
This idea of lepers infecting people is interesting, medieval medicine
didn't have a concept of infection or contagion until quite late, it
just didn't fit with their concept of disease. Also the incubation
period for leprosy is very long and transmission is uncertain, so even
if they did have a concept of contagion they probably wouldn't have
recognised that leprosy was infectious..
AFIK the issue with lepers more to with the religious idea of being
unclean and therefore to be avoided.
<Snip>
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
benjo...@chello.nl (benjo maso) wrote:
> So why couldn't those knights fight for honor alone?
The evidence suggests that entrance into tournaments was not just
concerned with honour. The fact that the loosing knight had to ransom
his horse and armour or lose them (in England) made the tournament
circuit a source of wealth. William Marshal is a classic example.
There are recorded cases that seem to have been a matter of honour but
these were international affairs. There was actually a joust on Old
London Bridge between an English Knight and a French one. This was
attended by the English King and Queen, I forget the exact details and
the book is not to hand.
Ken Young
ken...@cix.co.uk
Maternity is a matter of fact
Paternity is a matter of opinion
Matthew Harley
>
> There's not much to keep anyone here for long with an interest in Medieval
> History, unless you want to read off-topic posts and Hines' Cut 'n' Pastes.
Yes, I think Hines has almost succeeded in destroying this
group.
His cross-posting attracts all sorts of garbage which
overloads posts of any serious content, whether that be
medieval history or some other OT current-affairs stuff that
we like to discuss. As I have said before, it is not
unreasonable that people interested in medieval history are
also interested in the making of history in their own time.
But the crap that Hines posts and cross-posts is so
irrelevant to this group that his intention is clearly to
destroy it.
What a strange person he must be.
Is anybody surprised that he was booted out of the USN?
Matt Harley
Paul J Gans
>In article <c3pfnd$pip$6...@reader1.panix.com>,
>Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
>>C A Candy <c.a....@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>In article <c3o3ap$c25$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
>>
>>>As for research projects, I cheat. I write it up as a text file elsewhere
>>>during the day, refine it, then send it off once I'm satisfied with it.
>>>That's one reason the 'research' posts look different than standard
>>>responses like this one.
>>
>>Well, in spite of the feelings of one loon who never posts
>>anything original, this is NOT a seminar. One might do
>>that on-line. One person could prepare a paper, references
>>and all, and the rest of us could then critique it and each
>>other, references and all.
>Paul, you've done this before. I've never claimed this to be a seminar,
>and as usual, you mistake my discussing my _personal_ style as what I
>expect everyone else to follow. Thought we dealt with this the first time
>'round. Especially as I mention in the paragraph you quoted that other
>times I don't research things through in detail before posting.
Hey, I'm *agreeing* with you, not arguing!
>One reason I mentioned how I come around to those detailed posts of mine
>is so that people can see how it does not necessarily involve huge blocks
>of time sitting around composing a post. Instead, it builds up over time
>- a bit here, a bit there. Call it a suggestion, an anecdote, a
>possibility. But don't sound so harsh about it. There's certainly room
>for all types of posts to this group.
>>Might be fun, but then, that's what some of us do in meat life.
>Including me. So why does it sound to me like you're talking to me across
>a divide we're both on the same side of?
I'm not. You've misread me. I'm like that guy at the party
standing next to you wading in on your side.
>>This group is supposed to be more relaxed, where folks can
>>speak freely without having to look up every single thing
>>prior to posting. If I were to do that, I might as well
>>write a paper and have it published.[*]
>I never claimed it was. Nor have most people. This is not a case to make
>sweeping, general statements from.
Agreed.
----- Paul J. Gans
benjo maso
"E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0cfed5b.04032...@posting.google.com...
Thanks for your suggestions. I don't know Michael Camille's book, but I'll
try to find it. At the moment I'm not very much interested in animal
symbolism, but since I wrote a paper on the Roman de Renard as a student,
it's quite possible I'll return on of these days to this subject .
Benjo Maso
benjo maso
"Simon Pugh" <Ne...@mrzsp.demonX.co.uk> wrote in message
news:G2Q+U+Ly...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
In medieval medical treatises on leprosy having contact with lepers was
considered to be one of the possible causes for the disease. It was often
seen as some kind of a venereal disease with the rather curious idea that a
leper didn't infect the woman they were having intercourse with, but only
the men who had sex with her afterwards. Of course, it shows that medieval
physicians didn't have an idea how diseases can be transmissed, but on the
other hand, they did have a notion of infection or contagion.
Benjo Maso
benjo maso
"erilar" <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:erilarloFRY-7111...@news.airstreamcomm.net...
> In article <c3nqiu$287876$1...@ID-75468.news.uni-berlin.de>, "benjo maso"
> <benjo...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
> > So what about courts, courtly behaviour, literature, troubadours,
> > trouvères
> > and Minnesänger, popular culture, love, prostitution, children, death,
> > leprosy and its meanings, the peace of god, animals and their
> > representations, the monopoly of violence or rather the lack of it and
> > its
> > solutions, state formation, written and oral law, jurisdiction, the rise
> > individualism, honour and masculinity, sin and shame, theology and
> > politics,
> > etc.?
>
> That's all fun stuff 8-) The problem seems to be to start something
> that has an element or two of controversy to get people to react with
> comments.
Well, I think most of these topics are more or less controversial - and if
not it's not very difficult to create a controversy :-). For instance: love.
There are many theories oscillating between loony (crypto-catharism) to
implausible (the Duby-Köhler thesis), but none of them satisfactory. The
same goes for the rise of indivdualism. Was it in the 12th century, in the
16th or even later? And courts in Western-Europe - were they really little
more than rapidly moving army camps in the beginning of the 12th century
(with the possible exception of the Imperial court in the Holy Roman
Empire)? And what was the role of the clergy in the diffusion of courtly
ideals? Was in the same in the HGE as in France or England? And what about
the south of France? Etc., etc., etc.
Benjo Maso
benjo maso
trouvères
> > and Minnesänger, popular culture, love, prostitution, children, death,
> > leprosy and its meanings, the peace of god, animals and their
> > representations, the monopoly of violence or rather the lack of it and
its
> > solutions, state formation, written and oral law, jurisdiction, the rise
> > individualism, honour and masculinity, sin and shame, theology and
politics,
> > etc.?
> >
> > Benjo Maso
>
> A great deal of this has been discussed as well. I recall taking part
> in a lot of discussion on courts, courtly behaviour, literature,
> troubadours, trouvères and Minnesänger, love, prostitution, children,
> and a few interesting etcs. such has the concept of anger.
> But if you have ideas concerning these things, perhaps you could offer
> something new?
I'll think about it!
Benjo Maso
Vlad the Emailer
"Michael W Cook" <crusader_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BC860038.1C3D9%crusader_p...@hotmail.com...
Had you read a couple more, I think you would have realised it wasn't.
You have your faults from what I can see, but you are obviously not
American, a sailor or a twisted old fruit - unless my judgement has failed
entirely? You spell color with a u - gave it away.
No offence taken, Hines does tend to cause impatience I have noted.
Vlad
Martin Reboul
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:c3o463$c25$4...@reader1.panix.com...
> Martin Reboul <mar...@spamfukreboul1471.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >"C A Candy" <c.a....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
> >news:c3ni13$s...@altair.dur.ac.uk...
> >> In article <axG7c.87083$dP1.2...@newsc.telia.net>,
> >> Inger E Johansson <inger_e....@notelia.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >most of the interesting debates re English Medieval History are
discussed
> >in
> >> >LMB and the later Roman Age early Medieval Age debates are flowering in
> >> >Imperial Rome. Of course there are some OT posts there as well but not
as
> >> >much as here.
> >>
> >> This completely misses the point. I happen to be on the LMB mailing
list,
> >> so know what they are discussing. Which is fine... but has no bearing
> >> whatsoever to how this group conducts itself. I am a firm believer in
> >> 'the more the merrier': I want to see all of them as worthwhile, not as
> >> one being a replacement or a substitute for another. So while knowing
> >> about LMB is fine... I don't want to find us in an either-or situation.
>
anyway.
> >We have discussed most subjects ad nauseum and discussing them again
(without
> >'fresh blood' or new material) inevitably involves repetition and/or the
usual
> >rows.
>
may
> >be nothing else to 'discover' or discuss? It sometimes feels like it, as I
> >sometimes feel as if there is little mystery left. In that case, this group
> >has been a great success and done a marvellous job, as when I first came
here
> >I had many questions and gaps in my knowledge, which have been mostly
filled
> >thanks to everyone here.
>
> >Difficult....?
> > Cheers
> > Martin
>
> Ok. If you want something new, here's a bit I cribbed from
> a post to mediev-l:
>
> Evidently D. Courtwright's _Forces of Habit_ (2001) discusses
> the medieval use of cannabis. The reference is to pages 39-41.
>
> I have not seen the book and cannot vouch for anything.
I may have read it, but unfortunately my short-term memory isn't too good...
E. C. Lee
> "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:f0cfed5b.04032...@posting.google.com...
> > "benjo maso" <benjo...@chello.nl> wrote in message
> news:<c3o58f$28s1vm$1...@ID-75468.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> > > "Martin Reboul" <mar...@SPAMFUKreboul1471.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
> message
> > > news:c3o25l$mc2$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > Another that comes to mind is
> > > > symbolism in art, which is absolutely fascinating, and has been little
> > > > discussed here. I shall get working on it....
> > >
> > > That's what I also meant with "the representation of animals."
> > >
> > Let me know what specificly you are interested in regarding symbolism
> > and I'll get to it. Animals, well, again what specifically? Most
> > obviously there's the symbolism of the animals for the gospels.
> >
> > The most significant book discussing Medieval symbols is the Emile
> > Male classic, "The Gothic Image".
> >
> > Of course, almost any art history book will discuss this to some
> > extent. There is a great book that discusses symbols depicting the
> > outsiders of Medieval society. I think the author is Roberta
> > Melnikoff. Or is that just someone I went to high school with? I
> > could check on it if anyone is interested. Might even have symbols
> > for depicting those with leperosy.
> >
> > Michael Camille did a wonderful book on sexual and love symbolism
> > called "The Medieval Book of Love". This, of course, included animal
> > symbolism such as that of the hare and the dog, but also such
> > wonderful symbols as chess for the game of love.
>
>
> Thanks for your suggestions. I don't know Michael Camille's book, but I'll
> try to find it. At the moment I'm not very much interested in animal
> symbolism, but since I wrote a paper on the Roman de Renard as a student,
> it's quite possible I'll return on of these days to this subject .
>
Camille wrote several very interesting art books. A very short one on
Gothic art, called, um, "Gothic Art". There are two other ones that
are quite fascinating, "The Gothic Idol" which discusses the nature
of image worship (among other things) and "Images on the Edge". The
latter is about the art on the margins of manuscripts. I mentioned the
"Art of Lov"e book because in one full swoop it covered several of the
topics you suggested!
Right now I've been reading about Tantric symbolism and I'm reading
one of the many books by Ajit Mookerjee and Philip Rawson. It is
particularlly interesting because they are making parallels with
Medieval illustrations that chart man and/or the universe with similar
types made in India. An attempt by both cultures to schematize and
interelate everything. Fascinating.
Eve
Eve
Paul J Gans
>Benjo Maso
You make a good point about medieval medicine. One thing
we do wrongly is to read the works of medical theorists
and assume that they accurately describe medieval medicine.
They don't.
It has become quite clear that the medieval medical practitioner
was often fairly observent and learned from what he saw. He
might not have understood *why* some things happened, but he
(or she, there were female doctors) saw that they *did* happen.
---- Paul J. Gans
Martin Reboul
"Matthew Harley" <har...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:4060B518...@eircom.net...
The NSGA you mean Matt? He was a useful paperwork boy in the Navy for many
years, and very cheap as he never got promoted.
We aren't going to let him 'win' though, are we? Such defeatist talk!
He is irritating though, maybe 'tis time to have another look at his 'career'
I think....?
Shall we 'drop the big one' - what do you reckon?
Cheers
Martin
Simon Pugh
<benjo...@chello.nl> writes
><Snip>
>> > That's what I also meant with "the representation of animals."
>> >
>> Let me know what specificly you are interested in regarding symbolism
>> and I'll get to it. Animals, well, again what specifically? Most
>> obviously there's the symbolism of the animals for the gospels.
>>
>> The most significant book discussing Medieval symbols is the Emile
>> Male classic, "The Gothic Image".
>>
>> Of course, almost any art history book will discuss this to some
>> extent. There is a great book that discusses symbols depicting the
>> outsiders of Medieval society. I think the author is Roberta
>> Melnikoff. Or is that just someone I went to high school with? I
>> could check on it if anyone is interested. Might even have symbols
>> for depicting those with leperosy.
>>
>> Michael Camille did a wonderful book on sexual and love symbolism
>> called "The Medieval Book of Love". This, of course, included animal
>> symbolism such as that of the hare and the dog, but also such
>> wonderful symbols as chess for the game of love.
>
>
>Thanks for your suggestions. I don't know Michael Camille's book, but I'll
>try to find it. At the moment I'm not very much interested in animal
>symbolism, but since I wrote a paper on the Roman de Renard as a student,
>it's quite possible I'll return on of these days to this subject .
>
>Benjo Maso
>
>
>
>
Another fun book by Michael Camille is:
Image on the Edge, The Margins of Medieval Art.
It's all about the bawdy humour in the margins.
Simon Pugh
This idea that leprosy was a form of venereal disease has led some to
suggest that some cases of leprosy were actually treponemal infection.
Another is that cases of leprosy were some times treated with mercury
which is not active against leprosy but has a long history of use in
treponemal infection.
AFIK The idea of contagion wasn't formally expressed until a book called
De Contagione by Fracastoro in mid 16th C. Medical men came rather late
to the idea. As I understand it, it was plague and syphilis that forced
this change of view. Of course the general population caught on more
quickly. :-)
They thought that epidemics were caused by influences that could act
over a wide area such as the will of god, an unfortunate alignment of
the planets or bad air.
If you have evidence that people knew about contagion before the black
death, I would be interested to hear about it.
benjo maso
>
> If you have evidence that people knew about contagion before the black
> death, I would be interested to hear about it.
In "Histoire des lépreux au Moyen Age", Edition Imago, Paris 1988, pp. 24-26
Françoise Bériac is disussing a few authors from before 1350 who suggested
contagion (usually by inhaling the air exhaled or emitted by the body of a
leper or by intercourse) might be a cause for leprosy.
Benjo Maso
Paul J Gans
>"Simon Pugh" <Ne...@mrzsp.demonX.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:RPnrqLBu...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> If you have evidence that people knew about contagion before the black
>> death, I would be interested to hear about it.
>In "Histoire des l?preux au Moyen Age", Edition Imago, Paris 1988, pp. 24-26
>Fran?oise B?riac is disussing a few authors from before 1350 who suggested
>contagion (usually by inhaling the air exhaled or emitted by the body of a
>leper or by intercourse) might be a cause for leprosy.
>Benjo Maso
That's the theorizing I was talking about. I'd bet it came
from the *observation* that folks that got breathed upon
often came down with the same disease. The observation
was (likely) correct. The theory was just cooked up to
rationalize the observation.
In other words I'd bet that the practical knowlege was out
there *before* the theory got written down.
Of course, even when the plague struck, the first thing
done was to impose a quarantine. Just what we'd do today.
---- Paul J. Gans
Simon Pugh
<benjo...@chello.nl> writes
>
Thanks for the interesting reference, it is a shame that my school
French is not good enough to read a book like this. :-(
Would you like to tell us more about what the book says?
In general I think it is hard to sort contagion out with reference to
leprosy because it is so tied up with religious ideas of being unclean.
Your quote also raises the issue I referred to earlier, if the authors
were correct that the disease they referred to was leprosy, then the
idea that it can be transmitted as quoted cannot be based on observation
because the incubation period for leprosy is measured in years.
This was the reason for the theory that at least some leprosy was
actually treponemal infection, in fact, a precursor of syphilis.
Archaeological evidence does show that treponemal infection was in
Europe well before Columbus.
benjo maso
> In message <c3vo20$2beg5d$1...@ID-75468.news.uni-berlin.de>, benjo maso
> <benjo...@chello.nl> writes
> >
> >"Simon Pugh" <Ne...@mrzsp.demonX.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:RPnrqLBu...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
> >
> >>
> >> If you have evidence that people knew about contagion before the black
> >> death, I would be interested to hear about it.
> >
> >In "Histoire des lépreux au Moyen Age", Edition Imago, Paris 1988, pp.
24-26
> >Françoise Bériac is disussing a few authors from before 1350 who
suggested
> >contagion (usually by inhaling the air exhaled or emitted by the body of
a
> >leper or by intercourse) might be a cause for leprosy.
> >
> >Benjo Maso
> >
> >
>
> Thanks for the interesting reference, it is a shame that my school
> French is not good enough to read a book like this. :-(
> Would you like to tell us more about what the book says?
Françoise Bériac is making a distinction between the most popular causes,
based on the theory of humours, and other causes listed in medical
treatises. Contagion is only one of them. Usually there are two categories -
infection at the conception or after birth. One of the earliest works she
discusses is Liber pantegni by Constantinus Africanus, who considers leprosy
a a disease which is heriditary and contagious at the same time. In later
generations the list of possible causes becomes longer and longer as in the
Partica brevis by Platearius, who is seeing leprosy as a venereal disaese,
although it can also be causes by eating too much pepper, garlic or
contaminated porc. Other authors are also mentioning also beef, goat,
cabbage, lentils, oignons, milk, cheese and other kinds of "melancholy"
food. But most of them are also mentioning polluted air and contact lepers.
Françoise Bériac quotes also Arnaud de Villeneuve (end of the 13th century)
launches the theory that a man can become a leper after having intercourse
with a women who slept with another leper. But it can also caused by
immoderate eating of melancholy or phlegmatic food, contaminated meat,
pepper or garlic, drinking of undiluted wine, which is the reason why there
are so many lepers in Burgundy (can you blame them?). It's also possible to
become a leper by frequenting lepers or staying too long in the same spot,
because lepers are infecting the air and by inhaling it, one becomes a
leper. That's the reason why lepers should be separated from other people
and forced to live in a remote place. Bernard de Gourdon is largely of the
same opinion as Arnaud: causes are ingected air, excessive use of melancholy
food, like lentils, having leprous parents, ferquenting lepers, having sex
with a leprous women of with a women who slept with a leper, or having been
fathered during menstruation.
>
> In general I think it is hard to sort contagion out with reference to
> leprosy because it is so tied up with religious ideas of being unclean.
>
> Your quote also raises the issue I referred to earlier, if the authors
> were correct that the disease they referred to was leprosy, then the
> idea that it can be transmitted as quoted cannot be based on observation
> because the incubation period for leprosy is measured in years.
It certainly could have been be based on observation, although the
conlusions might have been completely wrong. For instance it must have
happened more than once that someone discovered to be infected shortly after
he had been in the neighbourhood of lepers, the conclusion must have been
obvious (and of course nobody realised that he had much closer contact five
years before). And if somebody else got the disease, although he hadn't seen
lepers for years, that didn't refute the theory matter at all. There were
some many other possibilities ...
Benjo Maso
Michael W Cook
jasper...@outgun.com wrote on 25/3/04 12:59 am:
My sincere apologise.
I'll tell you one day about Hines being hoofed out of Naval Intel.
He denies it all of course, even though the info came from former colleagues
who couldn't wait to spill the beans on what an arsehole he was, and still
is of course.
In fact, if you can be bothered, a quick Google with the words:
D Spencer Hines
Misawa Japan
Red headed barbarian
Pompous nautical ass
Should reveal all.
It's hilarious reading, especially after he told everyone that if we ever
found out what he did in the Navy, he'd have to kill us, or the CIA or MI5
would do it.
MWC
Michael W Cook
mar...@SPAMFUKreboul1471.freeserve.co.uk wrote on 25/3/04 6:03 pm:
It's certainly time we laid it all bare.......an update shall we say.
--
Why was Hines so far up Tettelbach's arse at Misawa ?
Once the old man left it all went pear-shaped for him. The slow sink down to
Housing Officer didn't take long.
Tettelbach must have surely served with his old man at some point, and he
was without doubt one of the 'Old School' too.
The way I see it (and I witnessed several instances myself when I served) is
that Hines was carried for years on the back of his old man. Bit like Bush
One then Baby Bush now, connections saw to it they rose to the top without
too much bother - doors were opened but they should have remained firmly
closed.
Now this was OK when it was 'Reds Under The Bed and all that, but once all
the chaff and waste from WWII and Korea were out of the way, Hines obviously
found it difficult to operate in a modern way of thinking in a navy of that
time.
"Over the top now, you bastards, or I'll shoot you all like dogs."
Was more his style, except Hines would watch them all get killed, then he'd
shoot himself in the foot and crawl into a bomb crater until it was all
over.
As we all know he was despised by his fellow officers and men, who didn't
trust him as far as they could throw him. Unable, and perhaps incapable of
making a decision 'off his own back', he played it by the book and didn't
waver once in his stance. In reality, all he was doing was revealing his
social and professional inadequacies even more.
This obviously didn't go unnoticed for long.
After being made XO, just to get him away from the men until Washington
could fix the paperwork, a shore based job in the Housing Dept was seen as
the perfect answer. It was mainly civilian contractors he'd be pissing off,
and his few fellow officers and other ranks were all a bit thick anyway or
soon retiring, otherwise they wouldn't be doing such a shitty job.
Basically, there was little damage he could do, and I suspect it was rather
like that little piece you wrote about him being at the Japanese attack on
Pearl. (Time for a repost don't you think ?)
What I'm really interested in now is this 'Landfall Enterprises' thing he
started, trying to cash in on his connections with the Housing Office at
Pearl. Now I know it all went west like everything he's ever done in his
life, but I want to know what happened, so I can rub even more dirt in his
wrinkled old face.
We really must update that D Spencer Hines FAQ.
Cheers
MWC
Simon Pugh
<benjo...@chello.nl> writes
<snip>
What a wonderful collection of theories, But I don't see a clear concept
of transmissibility, here. What I am talking about is specifically
incorporating contagion into medical theory, in other words bringing it
into the province of physicians. In De Contagione, Fracastoro (IRC) saw
the mechanism as like seeds. So the seed could be passed from one person
to another and if it found fertile ground it could develop into the
disease.
Menstruation is interesting, weren't the menstrual fluids seen as toxic?
And here is another area of difficulty, the difference between passing
on a poison and a transmissible disease.
An example of how difficult it can be to recognise transmissibility is
that in the 19th C many people didn't think tuberculosis was infectious.
Virtually everyone got infected in childhood, mostly sub-clinically, and
had immunity and it was other factors that determined if it reactivated
in later life and the individual became "consumptive".
>
>
>>
>> In general I think it is hard to sort contagion out with reference to
>> leprosy because it is so tied up with religious ideas of being unclean.
>>
>> Your quote also raises the issue I referred to earlier, if the authors
>> were correct that the disease they referred to was leprosy, then the
>> idea that it can be transmitted as quoted cannot be based on observation
>> because the incubation period for leprosy is measured in years.
>
>It certainly could have been be based on observation, although the
>conlusions might have been completely wrong. For instance it must have
>happened more than once that someone discovered to be infected shortly after
>he had been in the neighbourhood of lepers, the conclusion must have been
>obvious (and of course nobody realised that he had much closer contact five
>years before). And if somebody else got the disease, although he hadn't seen
>lepers for years, that didn't refute the theory matter at all. There were
>some many other possibilities ...
>
>Benjo Maso
>
>
>
>
>
I can't prove you wrong, but isn't it more likely that there were other
of skin diseases that might be called leprosy, and that it was something
else that they observed was passed from one to another.
Another factor is that despite the fear it generates, leprosy is
actually not that easily transmitted. Many cases are barely infectious
at all and at one time it was thought to be hereditary. Even to day
there are aspects of its epidemiology that are not completely
understood.
E. C. Lee
> In message <c451nc$2f19l2$1...@ID-75468.news.uni-berlin.de>, benjo maso
> <benjo...@chello.nl> writes
> <snip>
> I can't prove you wrong, but isn't it more likely that there were other
> of skin diseases that might be called leprosy, and that it was something
> else that they observed was passed from one to another.
>
I don't know the accuracy of this, but I once listened to a radio
program that said that in ancient times psoriasis may have been
confused with leprosy. I don't know if this would have changed by the
Middle Ages. Of course psoriasis is a hereditary disease.
Eve
Martin Reboul
I'm sure that many diseases we know today were lumped together under terms
like plague, leprosy, dropsy, scrofula and the dreaded 'flux' (which could be
cholera, typhoid, dysentry, food poisining or maybe irrtable bowel syndrome).
Mental illness in particular was either hysteria, melancholia or madness until
very recently. We should always be rather careful when reading medieval texts
mentioning ilnesses or epidemics in other words...
I wonder how many poor sods suffering from excema and scabies were confined to
leper colonies?
I'm intrigued to know whether many medieval folk suffered from allergies, but
this is probably about the hardest thing of all to ascertain, as it is still
hard to work out even nowadays. Did they get 'hayfever' then - I'm sure they
did? As for food allergies, that's even harder. The infamous "surfeit of
lampreys" that did for King John (or was it Henry?) comes to mind here - food
poisining, a severe allergic reaction, perforated ulcer, appendicitus,
pancreatitus, a bowel constriction or just good old poisin from an assasin...
impossible to tell. It might just have been a stroke or a heart attack.
Tricky.... and no way of finding out forensically really (apart perhaps from a
heavy metal poison).
I can see why the theory of "bad air" and bad places lasted so long, as it
was, in effect, absolutely correct. They didn't know what was in the 'poisoned
air', food or water of course, but they knew it was 'bad'. Empirically they
were correct (which probably saved countless lives over the centuries). They
also realised that fire was 'cleansing', and salt and alcohol 'disinfectant'.
Once (by lucky accident) I avoided a ghastly food poisining incident because
of my disgracefully greedy consumption of brandy after dinner. It must have
killed all the little bugs in the 'portion' of dinner that lay in my stomach -
my more health concious and abstemious friends suffered horribly.
The inference was that I had 'iron guts' because of the amount I drink, my
dissolute lifestyle and my love of hot and spicy food, and to an extent that
was correct. The fact is, I don't have 'iron guts' (far from it!), but the
'cure' actually *was* due to my immoderation. I expect any medieval doctor
observing this phenomena a few times, might well jump to the conclusion that
drinking half a bottle of spirits after every meal was a good aid to
digestion, and prevented the dreaded flux...?
Cheers
Martin
Vlad the Emailer
No need, I appreceiate it was a simple mistake.
> I'll tell you one day about Hines being hoofed out of Naval Intel.
>
> He denies it all of course, even though the info came from former
colleagues
> who couldn't wait to spill the beans on what an arsehole he was, and still
> is of course.
>
> In fact, if you can be bothered, a quick Google with the words:
>
> D Spencer Hines
> Misawa Japan
> Red headed barbarian
> Pompous nautical ass
>
> Should reveal all.
>
> It's hilarious reading, especially after he told everyone that if we ever
> found out what he did in the Navy, he'd have to kill us, or the CIA or MI5
> would do it.
Hilarious IS certainly the word! I don't imagine M15 gave you much trouble?
What a jerk the guy is, I had no idea quite how bad. Pompous is hardly
adequate. The loyalty of _his men_ says it all in the end, not a good word
from the lot of them. I have known his type before and have had to work with
them. Deserves all he gets - give him hell!
Vlad
Martin Reboul
Rather as idiot sons of the aristocracy and Royal family manage to get into
Oxford then attain high ranks in the armed forces I suppose. I once worked for
such a chap... nice fellow 'n all that, but unfit to command a mini van in
less than slightly heavy traffic (liable to panic and lose his
temper/bearings/sanity etc. at the least trouble and run around like a
headless chicken, but with less sense of direction).
He was however in the army... and to my utter horror (I really, really thought
it must be a joke, but it wasn't!), he was actually given command of an MBT on
an exercise in Germany! Had the Russians ever realised, they would have been
been walking down Whitehall with the snow still unmelted on their boots. I
expect that his crew would have 'fragged' him before engaging in any real
action, but even so.... frightening.
> Now this was OK when it was 'Reds Under The Bed and all that, but once all
> the chaff and waste from WWII and Korea were out of the way, Hines obviously
> found it difficult to operate in a modern way of thinking in a navy of that
> time.
>
> "Over the top now, you bastards, or I'll shoot you all like dogs."
>
> Was more his style, except Hines would watch them all get killed, then he'd
> shoot himself in the foot and crawl into a bomb crater until it was all
> over.
It says much for the USN that they quickly had him reduced to ordering paper
clips and generating paperwork well out of the way of any possible enemy
activity. I don't think these easy rides based on illustrious ancestors and
the 'old-boy network' are nearly as easy to obtain nowadays, and were becoming
difficult even in his day. It took a long time even so, many, many good men
have been killed by being put under the command of such dismally incompetant
officers in the past, and battles (even wars) lost.
Fortunately, old Spency doesn't have that burden on his conscience (if he
actually has one), as it is plain to see that if he ever had attempted to lead
any troops into battle, he would have found a grenade dropped down the back of
his trousers long before he had a chance to get anyone killed.
> As we all know he was despised by his fellow officers and men, who didn't
> trust him as far as they could throw him. Unable, and perhaps incapable of
> making a decision 'off his own back', he played it by the book and didn't
> waver once in his stance. In reality, all he was doing was revealing his
> social and professional inadequacies even more.
>
> This obviously didn't go unnoticed for long.
>
> After being made XO, just to get him away from the men until Washington
> could fix the paperwork, a shore based job in the Housing Dept was seen as
> the perfect answer. It was mainly civilian contractors he'd be pissing off,
> and his few fellow officers and other ranks were all a bit thick anyway or
> soon retiring, otherwise they wouldn't be doing such a shitty job.
>
> Basically, there was little damage he could do, and I suspect it was rather
> like that little piece you wrote about him being at the Japanese attack on
> Pearl. (Time for a repost don't you think ?)
I do actually, some may not have seen it. A new thread I think...
> What I'm really interested in now is this 'Landfall Enterprises' thing he
> started, trying to cash in on his connections with the Housing Office at
> Pearl. Now I know it all went west like everything he's ever done in his
> life, but I want to know what happened, so I can rub even more dirt in his
> wrinkled old face.
>
> We really must update that D Spencer Hines FAQ.
I think it is time, you're right. I couldn't remember actually - I thought it
was 'Pratfall Enterprises' or maybe 'Landslip Enterprises', but I think you
are right Michael. I'm sure all the records are available somewhere, I shall
have a look - who knows, with luck it may be as amusing as the appalling
Seppo's shameful court case! Hilarious....
BTW, have you seen that peculiar picture posted the other day? Wheras I think
it is despicable and disgraceful to post binaries to newsgroups like that, I
was nevertheless rather intrigued... could it be?
Cheers
Martin
Simon Pugh
<afro...@yahoo.com> writes
Yes I've heard that too, in fact the biblical description of leprosy may
not have been leprosy at all. I did a post on this a couple of yeas
ago:
-----------
"...our attitude to leprosy is
the result of an error in the translation of the bible.
Leper Hospitals were placed outside the town according to the Levitical
precept that the leper should dwell "without the camp" The Church was
right about Leviticus but wrong about the disease. As a result of
translation through four languages, a diffuse Levitical concept of
ritual defilement became identified with a disease answering the
description modern leprosy. According to Levitical law, several
ceremonially defiling conditions, including a disfiguring disorder of
the skin summarised by the Hebrew word tsara'ath, necessitated
separation from both the religious and secular communities; this word
was translated into Greek as lepra.
Leprosy, which Greek physicians described in unmistakable terms, was
called elefantiasis on account of the elephantine appearance of the face
deformed by excessive nodulation in the advanced disease. Greek medicine
reached western Europe in Arabic translations but Arabic already had a
disease, das fil, equivalent in name to elefantiasis. This tropical
disease caused by filarial worms is still know as elephantiasis today,
because limbs grossly swollen and wrinkled by the disease resemble
elephants' legs. A different Arabic word, juzam, was therefore used to
describe Greek elefantiasis (modern leprosy). Juzam, alas, was later
translated into Latin as lepra, the same word as the Greek description
of a vague collection of different diseases. At a stroke, a well defined
and specific disease of no religious significance was thus blurred into
a diffuse Levitical concept of impurity.
In the fullness of time the Latin lepra and the equivalent English word
leprosy, acquired all the religious overtones of the Hebrew tsara'ath.
Medieval authors recognised the confusion and distinguished between
"leprosy of the Greeks" and "leprosy of the Arabs", correctly
identifying the latter with Greek elefantiasis and giving it the same
title in Latin. Their insight was not shared by the church."
----------
Another interesting thing is that medieval doctors saw a connection
between leprosy and syphilis some even asserting that they were the same
thing. Of course we shouldn't read to much into this although it fits
with the idea that at least some of medieval leprosy may have been
treponemal infection.
The other thing is that the iconography of leprosy got transferred to
syphilis so that both conditions got depicted in a similar way with the
sufferer covered in spots.
Martin Reboul
Do you know of any Greek or medieval 'treatments' that were recommended for
leprosy? I shudder to think - probably prayers and patience...
> ----------
> Another interesting thing is that medieval doctors saw a connection
> between leprosy and syphilis some even asserting that they were the same
> thing. Of course we shouldn't read to much into this although it fits
> with the idea that at least some of medieval leprosy may have been
> treponemal infection.
>
> The other thing is that the iconography of leprosy got transferred to
> syphilis so that both conditions got depicted in a similar way with the
> sufferer covered in spots.
A pox indeed... that word seems to have covered a large number of complaints,
almost anything involving unpleasant physical changes to the skin, and all
STD's.
Cheers
Martin
David Read
for
> leprosy? I shudder to think - probably prayers and patience...
Hellebore, used as a violent emetic, seems to have been a favourite. Pliny
the Elder describes its uses and effects in some detail, and observes that
the Greeks were reluctant to prescribe it in large enough doses to be
effective. Culpepper mentions it too.
Here's what Pliny says, in Philemon Holland's delightfully free 16th century
translation:
"... And say that hellebore taken in manner aforesaid, wrought very well,
yet they used to observe every vomit, the divers colours of humours that
came away which many times were fearful to behold: yea and when the patient
had done casting, they considered also the ordure and excrements that passed
away by the belly: they gave order besides, for bathing either before or
after the taking of hellebore, as occasion best required; yea and they took
great heed and regard of the whole body besides: and yet, did what they
could, the terrible name and report that went of this medicine, passed all
their care and circumspection whatsoever: for it was an opinion generally
held and recieved, that hellebore doth eat away and consume the flesh
seething in the pot, if it be boiled therewith. But herein were the ancient
physicians much to blame and greatly in fault, in that they were
over-timorous, and for fear of such accidents ensuing upon this medicine,
gave it in too small a dose: whereas indeed, the greater quantity that one
taketh of it, the more speedily it worketh, and the sooner passeth out of
the body, when it hath once done the errand. Themison used to prescibe two
drams, and not above. The physicians who followed after, allowed the dose of
four drams; grounding upon a notable and famous apophlegm or speech of
Herophylus, who was wont to say, that hellebore was like unto a valiant and
hardy captain: For when (quoth he) it hath stirred all the humours within
the body, itself issueth forth first and maketh way before them.
* * *
* *
"And thus being used as is beforesaid, it is a most sovereign remedy for the
falling sickness, the swimming or dizziness of the head: it cureth
melancholic persons troubled in mind; such as be brainsick, mad, lunatic,
frantic, and furious: it is singular good for the elephantie, the foul and
dangerous morphew called leuce, the filthy leprosy, and the general
convulsion whereby the body continueth stiff and stark, as if it were all
one piece without any joint. It helpeth those that be troubled with
trembling, shivering, and shaking of their limbs, with the gout, and the
dropsy, and namely such as be entering into a tympanie: singular it is for
those that have weak and feeble stomachs and can keep nothing that they
take; for such as are given to spasms or cramps, lie bedrid with the ague,
which will not be rid away by any other means; troubled with an old cough,
vexed with ventosities and griping wrings and torments which be periodical,
and used to come and go at certain times: howbeit, physicians forbid the
giving of hellebore to old folk and young children: ... " Book XXV
Pliny also describes mint as being a cure for leprosy, just as useless as
hellbore, but a good deal more pleasant.
"In the time of Pompey the Great, it was known by experience, that the
leaves of wild mint chewed and applied outwardly, cured the leprosy: by
occasion, that a certain leper minding to disguise himself, that he might
not for very shame be known, chanced to anoint and besmear his face all over
with the juice of wild mints. But fortune was better mistress unto him than
he expected, for beyond his expectation or intent, his good hap was to be
rid of his leprosy by that means." Book XX
Extracts from _The History of the World commonly called The Natural History
of C. Plinius Secundus or Pliny_ Translated by Philemon Holland, Selected
and introduced by Paul Turner, Southern Illinois University Press 1962.
For the Latin text of the Naturalis Historia of Plinius Secundus, see
http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/home.html
cheers,
David Read
Simon Pugh
<davi...@dreadful.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>"Martin Reboul" <mar...@SPAMFUKreboul1471.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
>> Do you know of any Greek or medieval 'treatments' that were recommended
>for
>> leprosy? I shudder to think - probably prayers and patience...
<Snip quote>
>
>http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/Pli
>ny_the_Elder/home.html
>
>cheers,
>
>David Read
>
>
>
Thanks for the interesting quote David, I wonder if the confusion
between elephantiasis and lepra exists here, I suppose it might if Pliny
was using Greek sources?
There seem to have been a lot of treatments for leprosy, which is not
surprising as it was incurable, including antimony mixtures, baths and
holy springs, herbal remedies, mercury, Juniper and viper potion.
Here is a quote from "A leechbook or Collection of Medical Recipes of
the fifteenth Century", Warren Dawson 1934.
Also a principal medicine for leprosy. Take a bushel of good barley in
the month of March, and half a bushel of toads; and seethe them well
together in a lead [cauldron] with running water, till bones of the
toads be altogether shaken out; then take out the barley from the water,
and dry [it] in the sun or in a kiln till it be right dry. Then take a
hen that hath chickens new-hatched, that have never eaten food; and put
them in a close house [coop] clean swept, and give them of the barley
broken in a mortar and afterwards whole when they are older; then let
the leper eat those chickens both roasted and boiled, and no other meat;
and let his bread be made of barley and [his] drink scalded, and
ever-among [from time to time] drink water, ale, and wine, but scalded,
nor any hot nor spiced drink, and ever-among let the blood till thou
seest thy blood clean. And govern thee in all things aforesaid, and thou
shalt be whole. Probatum est.
David Read
>
> Thanks for the interesting quote David, I wonder if the confusion
> between elephantiasis and lepra exists here, I suppose it might if Pliny
> was using Greek sources?
Well, he does have a section on what he calls elephantiasis in Book XXVI.
This is how he describes the symptoms:
"As touching the white leprosy, called elephantiasis (according as I have
before shewed) it was not seen in Italy before the time of Pompey the Great.
This disease also began for the most part in the face, and namely it took
the nose first, where it put forth a little speck or pimple no bigger than a
small lentil; but soon after, as it spread further and ran over the whole
body, a man should perceive the skin to be painted and spotted with divers
and sundry colours, and the same uneven, bearing out higher in one place
than another, thick here but thin there, and hard everywhere; rough also,
like as if a scurf or scab overran it, until in the end it would grow
blackish, bearing down the flesh flat to the bones, whiles the fingers of
the hands, and toes of the feet were puffed up and swelled again. A peculiar
malady is this to the Aegyptians; but look when any of their kings fell into
it, woe worth the subject and poor people: for then the tubs and bathing
vessels wherein they sat in the bain, filled with men's blood for their
cure."
>
> There seem to have been a lot of treatments for leprosy, which is not
> surprising as it was incurable, including antimony mixtures, baths and
> holy springs, herbal remedies, mercury, Juniper and viper potion.
>
> Here is a quote from "A leechbook or Collection of Medical Recipes of
> the fifteenth Century", Warren Dawson 1934.
> Also a principal medicine for leprosy. Take a bushel of good barley in
> the month of March, and half a bushel of toads; and seethe them well
> together in a lead [cauldron] with running water, till bones of the
> toads be altogether shaken out; then take out the barley from the water,
> and dry [it] in the sun or in a kiln till it be right dry. Then take a
> hen that hath chickens new-hatched, that have never eaten food; and put
> them in a close house [coop] clean swept, and give them of the barley
> broken in a mortar and afterwards whole when they are older; then let
> the leper eat those chickens both roasted and boiled, and no other meat;
> and let his bread be made of barley and [his] drink scalded, and
> ever-among [from time to time] drink water, ale, and wine, but scalded,
> nor any hot nor spiced drink, and ever-among let the blood till thou
> seest thy blood clean. And govern thee in all things aforesaid, and thou
> shalt be whole. Probatum est.
Beats the hell out of hellebore.
cheers,
David Read
Simon Pugh
<davi...@dreadful.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>"Simon Pugh" <Ne...@mrzsp.demonX.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:s95EGUDd...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
>
>>
>> Thanks for the interesting quote David, I wonder if the confusion
>> between elephantiasis and lepra exists here, I suppose it might if Pliny
>> was using Greek sources?
>
>Well, he does have a section on what he calls elephantiasis in Book XXVI.
>This is how he describes the symptoms:
>
>"As touching the white leprosy, called elephantiasis (according as I have
>before shewed) it was not seen in Italy before the time of Pompey the Great.
>This disease also began for the most part in the face, and namely it took
>the nose first, where it put forth a little speck or pimple no bigger than a
>small lentil; but soon after, as it spread further and ran over the whole
>body, a man should perceive the skin to be painted and spotted with divers
>and sundry colours, and the same uneven, bearing out higher in one place
>than another, thick here but thin there, and hard everywhere; rough also,
>like as if a scurf or scab overran it, until in the end it would grow
>blackish, bearing down the flesh flat to the bones, whiles the fingers of
>the hands, and toes of the feet were puffed up and swelled again. A peculiar
>malady is this to the Aegyptians; but look when any of their kings fell into
>it, woe worth the subject and poor people: for then the tubs and bathing
>vessels wherein they sat in the bain, filled with men's blood for their
>cure."
Interesting, he seems to be using white leprosy and elephantiasis as
synonyms. Presumably the author is describing what we would call leprosy
but it is hard to sure with these old descriptions.
I understand that white leprosy can be used for vitiligo.
>>
>> There seem to have been a lot of treatments for leprosy, which is not
>> surprising as it was incurable, including antimony mixtures, baths and
>> holy springs, herbal remedies, mercury, Juniper and viper potion.
>>
>> Here is a quote from "A leechbook or Collection of Medical Recipes of
>> the fifteenth Century", Warren Dawson 1934.
>> Also a principal medicine for leprosy. Take a bushel of good barley in
>> the month of March, and half a bushel of toads; and seethe them well
>> together in a lead [cauldron] with running water, till bones of the
>> toads be altogether shaken out; then take out the barley from the water,
>> and dry [it] in the sun or in a kiln till it be right dry. Then take a
>> hen that hath chickens new-hatched, that have never eaten food; and put
>> them in a close house [coop] clean swept, and give them of the barley
>> broken in a mortar and afterwards whole when they are older; then let
>> the leper eat those chickens both roasted and boiled, and no other meat;
>> and let his bread be made of barley and [his] drink scalded, and
>> ever-among [from time to time] drink water, ale, and wine, but scalded,
>> nor any hot nor spiced drink, and ever-among let the blood till thou
>> seest thy blood clean. And govern thee in all things aforesaid, and thou
>> shalt be whole. Probatum est.
>
>Beats the hell out of hellebore.
>
>cheers,
>
>David Read
>
>
I wasn't trying to top you, honest guv. :-)
Martin Reboul
"David Read" <davi...@dreadful.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c4e525$eeh$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Thanks for that David, great stuff (I mean the information, not the
hellebore!)
I must say, I'm glad my GP hasn't heard of the stuff, or he's bound to have
tried its remarkable curative properties out on me, saving the NHS a fortune.
Very nasty, but should I ever come down with a touch of leprousy, I'm glad to
say there's loads of mint growing in the garden, so I won't need to bother
him.
Cheers
Martin.
Martin Reboul
>
> "Simon Pugh" <Ne...@mrzsp.demonX.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:s95EGUDd...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
>
> >
> > Thanks for the interesting quote David, I wonder if the confusion
> > between elephantiasis and lepra exists here, I suppose it might if Pliny
> > was using Greek sources?
>
> Well, he does have a section on what he calls elephantiasis in Book XXVI.
> This is how he describes the symptoms:
>
> "As touching the white leprosy, called elephantiasis (according as I have
> before shewed) it was not seen in Italy before the time of Pompey the Great.
> This disease also began for the most part in the face, and namely it took
> the nose first, where it put forth a little speck or pimple no bigger than a
> small lentil; but soon after, as it spread further and ran over the whole
> body, a man should perceive the skin to be painted and spotted with divers
> and sundry colours, and the same uneven, bearing out higher in one place
> than another, thick here but thin there, and hard everywhere; rough also,
> like as if a scurf or scab overran it, until in the end it would grow
> blackish, bearing down the flesh flat to the bones, whiles the fingers of
> the hands, and toes of the feet were puffed up and swelled again. A peculiar
> malady is this to the Aegyptians; but look when any of their kings fell into
> it, woe worth the subject and poor people: for then the tubs and bathing
> vessels wherein they sat in the bain, filled with men's blood for their
> cure."
That sounds horribly like lupus or some invasive form of skin cancer...
spreading through the system to the lymphatic system, liver and kidneys... and
mention of sunny Egypt too. I thought 'modern' elaphantitus was caused by a
par asitic infection, but sometimes fluid retention caused by vitamin B
deficiencies can cause similar symptoms (swollen ankles and legs etc.)
Once again, I reckon many different diseases may have been lumped into one
'catch all' malady?
Cheers
Martin