Skuldelev 2 replica
Soren Larsen
Long presentation video in english at:
http://www.havhingsten.dk/index.php?id=446&L=0
Good connection needed.
Complete with talking heads, heroic speaker, tourist minister and nice
pictures.
Interesting to see that actually seems to be better to handle the ship under
both sail and oars in newest pictures. Some of the footage from right
after the launch wasn't promising - some examples near the end of the
video.
Soren Larsen
--
History is not what it used to be.
erilar
"Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> wrote:
> Long presentation video in english at:
>
> http://www.havhingsten.dk/index.php?id=446&L=0
>
> Good connection needed.
>
> Complete with talking heads, heroic speaker, tourist minister and nice
> pictures.
>
> Interesting to see that actually seems to be better to handle the ship under
> both sail and oars in newest pictures. Some of the footage from right
> after the launch wasn't promising - some examples near the end of the
> video.
Fascinating! I just passed the link on to a potentially large audience
of Midwestern Vikings 8-)
What is the sail made of?
--
Mary Loomer (aka Erilar)
----------------------------------------
Es ist nichts schrecklicher als eine tätige Unwissenheit.
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
(There's nothing worse than ignorance in action.)
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>
>Long presentation video in english at:
>
>http://www.havhingsten.dk/index.php?id=446&L=0
>
>Good connection needed.
>
>Complete with talking heads, heroic speaker, tourist minister and nice
>pictures.
>
>Interesting to see that actually seems to be better to handle the ship under
>both sail and oars in newest pictures. Some of the footage from right
>after the launch wasn't promising - some examples near the end of the
>video.
>
Soren,
Thank you very much for that link. I only wish it was possible to save
the file. I was particularly taken by the shots of the construction. A
few months ago a travelling display "The Vikings" passed through
Auckland and display which fascinated me was computer display of the
construction. All that the computer display lacked was the pine tar.
One thing, my connection is not what is generally regarded as fast
(ADSL) but was more than able to keep up with the program.
Unfortunately there seemed to be a bottleneck somewhere
(http://www.dumeter.com/) between me and the server which only let the
file through in dribs and drabs.
I like the line at the end "Coming soon to a harbour near you".
I imagine there was a time when people didn't really want to know
that.
Eric Stevens
jackli...@earthlink.net
Linen, all original materials
try sea stallion glendalough as a start I added sails
adamadamant
news:455b949b$0$14033$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk:
>
> Long presentation video in english at:
>
> http://www.havhingsten.dk/index.php?id=446&L=0
>
> Good connection needed.
>
> Complete with talking heads, heroic speaker, tourist minister
> and nice pictures.
>
> Interesting to see that actually seems to be better to handle
> the ship under both sail and oars in newest pictures. Some of
> the footage from right after the launch wasn't promising - some
> examples near the end of the video.
Interesting. Thank you. However I was disappointed to note that the
computer graphic showing Viking exploration expanding to the South
and West faded out just as it reached North America. Darn! Now we'll
never know!
Andy.
David Starr
Beautiful shots of the ship under way. Nice video of making planks
without a saw, splitting oak logs with wedge and sledge hammer. I would
have liked to see some pictures of smoothing the split planks with planes.
They gave the ship's length as 90 meters, which is big. I was
unable to find her beam, her draft, her displacement, her speed under
oars or sail, or how high she could point into the wind. There was one
good shot of her close hauled with the yard braced around to straight
fore and aft which suggests she could point up fairly high. The lines
of her hull are very handsome, she is a beautiful vessel.
All the video of rowing looked awkward. The oar stroke seemed
awfully short, the oar blades seemed too small, and the crew was having
difficulty in all pulling together at the same time. More rowing
practice for them...
They showed the oar port stoppers, but they didn't show how the oars
were put into the oar ports. Were the ports big enough to pass the oar
blade, allowing the rower to just push the oar out from his seat? Or
were the ports too small to pass the blade of the oar, requiring the
rower to reach over the side and feed the handle of the oar in thru the
port?
I saw them painting a red and a yellow stripe on the hull. Made me
wonder if paint good enough to go to sea was available in 1042. I have
some pictures of replica Columbus vessels showing them covered with
black tar. Effective but ugly and sticky.
David Starr
jackli...@earthlink.net
David Starr wrote:
.
> They gave the ship's length as 90 meters, which is big. I was
> unable to find her beam, her draft, her displacement, her speed under
> oars or sail, or how high she could point into the wind. There was one
> good shot of her close hauled with the yard braced around to straight
> fore and aft which suggests she could point up fairly high. The lines
> of her hull are very handsome, she is a beautiful vessel.
>
> wonder if paint good enough to go to sea was available in 1042. I have
> some pictures of replica Columbus vessels showing them covered with
> black tar. Effective but ugly and sticky.
>
> David Starr
The length is 30 meters, which becomes 30 yards or 90 feet in
non-metric countries, later screwed up into 90 feet. The ship still at
the bottom is 46 meters, which must be a record.
The sails are red and yellow, probably a 21st century affectation to
paint the hull. this site gives lots of details of the building and
plans for the Sea Stallion, including why the sails are colored in the
first place.
jackli...@earthlink.net
Finally found a site with dimensions.
http://offtopic.kimcm.dk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4493&sid=6a415b027bc09ea89bc2579445d84bcb
SPECIFICATIONS
* Type: Warship (longboat). Copy of "Skuldelev 2"
* Minimum crew: 60, the weight of the oarsmen are crucial for the
balance of the ship
* Maximum crew: 80-100
* Speed (oars): 5 knots (est)
* Speed (sail): 20 knots (est)
* Mast height: 14 m (46 ft)
* Sail: 118 m2 (1270 ft2)
* Length: 29.4 m (97 ft)
* Width: 3.8 m (13 ft)
* Weight: 9.2 tons + 6 tons ballast
John Kane
adamadamant wrote:
L'Anse aux Meadows ? But they were clearly illigal immigrants and
finally deported.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
John Kane
adamadamant wrote:
L'Anse aux Meadows ? But they were clearly illegal immigrants and
erilar
jackli...@earthlink.net wrote:
> erilar wrote:
> > What is the sail made of?
>
> Linen, all original materials
>
> try sea stallion glendalough as a start I added sails
>
> http://www.visitroskilde.com/product.asp?l=2&AUUID=Begivenheder&TUUID=Store%20
> begivenheder&UUID=26:143:18373
Thanks 8-) More things to pass on!
adamadamant
news:1163786591....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Nah- L'Anse aux Meadows is an elaborate hoax perpetrated by certain
members of sci.archeology to wind up other members. It canot be
considered a serious archeological proposition until somebody can
connect the Holy Grail to it:-).
Andy.
Tron
"Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> skrev i melding
news:455b949b$0$14033$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...
>
> Long presentation video in english at:
>
> http://www.havhingsten.dk/index.php?id=446&L=0
>
> Good connection needed.
>
> Complete with talking heads, heroic speaker, tourist minister and nice
> pictures.
>
> Interesting to see that actually seems to be better to handle the ship
> under
> both sail and oars in newest pictures. Some of the footage from right
> after the launch wasn't promising - some examples near the end of the
> video.
>
Very nice.
More "canoe"-like than the Gokstads etc. ...?
The only "flaw" was the spiel on "first voyage in 900 years" - Experimantal
and cerebrational viking ship copies have run a fairly regular schedule
between e.g. Norway and traditional viking destinations ( Isle of Man,
England, Scotland, Faeroes, USA ... ) for almost 100 years now, IIRC.
T
Soren Larsen
> Soren Larsen wrote:
>> Long presentation video in english at:
>>
>> http://www.havhingsten.dk/index.php?id=446&L=0
>>
>> Good connection needed.
>>
>> Complete with talking heads, heroic speaker, tourist minister and
>> nice pictures.
>>
>> Interesting to see that actually seems to be better to handle the
>> ship under both sail and oars in newest pictures. Some of the
>> footage from right after the launch wasn't promising - some examples near
>> the end of the
>> video.
>>
>> Soren Larsen
>>
> Excellent video. Played fine over my sluggish cable modem.
The site recommend a fast connection. I just repeated that reccomendation
> Beautiful shots of the ship under way. Nice video of making planks
> without a saw, splitting oak logs with wedge and sledge hammer. I
> would have liked to see some pictures of smoothing the split planks
> with planes. They gave the ship's length as 90 meters, which is
> big. I was
Indeed
The real length is 30 meters.
> unable to find her beam, her draft, her displacement, her speed under
> oars or sail, or how high she could point into the wind.
Sofar only estimated performance is available
>There was
> one good shot of her close hauled with the yard braced around to
> straight fore and aft which suggests she could point up fairly high. The
> lines of her hull are very handsome, she is a beautiful vessel.
> All the video of rowing looked awkward. The oar stroke seemed
> awfully short, the oar blades seemed too small,
This would be a result of experiences with earlier viking ship replicas.
In 1949 a commercial replica; Hugin was manned with competitive
rowers. It was discovered that there wasn't enough room for modern
rowing styles to be effective.
Further research into rowing styles on vessels descended
from viking ships on the Faroes and Swedish lakes showed that
oarsmen on these vessels used short fast strokes.
>and the crew was
> having difficulty in all pulling together at the same time. More
> rowing practice for them...
Yup
They are however better on the later pictures.
> They showed the oar port stoppers, but they didn't show how the
> oars were put into the oar ports. Were the ports big enough to pass
> the oar blade, allowing the rower to just push the oar out from his
> seat? Or were the ports too small to pass the blade of the oar,
> requiring the rower to reach over the side and feed the handle of the
> oar in thru the port?
I dont know.
> I saw them painting a red and a yellow stripe on the hull. Made me
> wonder if paint good enough to go to sea was available in 1042.
Probably.
The paintjob is obviously modelled on the Bayeaux tapestry.
We do however have a plank with carved decoration and paint
from a viking age church at Hoerning.
This plank was painted with linseed oil based paint in the colours
black, red, and yellow.
Here are a cople of photo of a reconstruction of the church:
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/wagnijo/P7290092.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/wagnijo/P7290089.jpg
>I
> have some pictures of replica Columbus vessels showing them covered
> with black tar. Effective but ugly and sticky.
I guess most viking age ships were just tarred as well, but magnate ships
with
elaborate carvings would probably be painted so that the carved decorations
could stand out.
Soren Larsen
> "Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> skrev i melding
> news:455b949b$0$14033$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...
>>
>> Long presentation video in english at:
>>
>> http://www.havhingsten.dk/index.php?id=446&L=0
>>
>> Good connection needed.
>>
>> Complete with talking heads, heroic speaker, tourist minister and
>> nice pictures.
>>
>> Interesting to see that actually seems to be better to handle the
>> ship under
>> both sail and oars in newest pictures. Some of the footage from right
>> after the launch wasn't promising - some examples near the end of the
>> video.
>>
>
> Very nice.
> More "canoe"-like than the Gokstads etc. ...?
Canoe-like gives a wrong impression. Skuldelev 2 is more of a sailing
ship than Gokstad.
Ships like S2 would likely wait for favourable winds and conditions
before taking off for a hopefully fast passage.
Ships like Gokstad was probably used for magnate transportation
on the Norwegian coast and would rely more on oars.
> The only "flaw" was the spiel on "first voyage in 900 years" -
You missed the rest of the sentence: "with a viking ship of this size"
> Experimantal and cerebrational viking ship copies have run a fairly
> regular schedule between e.g. Norway and traditional viking
> destinations ( Isle of Man, England, Scotland, Faeroes, USA ... ) for
> almost 100 years now, IIRC.
Yup
David Starr
> David Starr wrote:
>> I saw them painting a red and a yellow stripe on the hull. Made me
>> wonder if paint good enough to go to sea was available in 1042.
>
> Probably.
>
> The paintjob is obviously modelled on the Bayeaux tapestry.
>
> We do however have a plank with carved decoration and paint
> from a viking age church at Hoerning.
>
> This plank was painted with linseed oil based paint in the colours
> black, red, and yellow.
Interesting. Linseed oil makes a pretty good wood finish even today.
Woodworkers still use it, so it competes well with modern synthetics. I
could believe that a linseed oil paint would survive exposed to the
weather at sea.
David Starr
Eric Stevens
Ultraviolet light gets at it and it eventually gets chalky. Then it
needs sanding and repainting. A straight linseed oil paint will last
two years at sea if you are lucky.
Eric Stevens
David Starr
I had a wood sailboat. She needed, and she got, a new coat of paint
(hell two or three coats of paint) every spring. Compared to the spar
varnish (which would fail after two months in the water) the paint was
rugged.
I have a Columbus book with color photos of a replica Nina. She is
tarred from stem to stern and it looks kinda shabby, black, and sticky.
Not the way I would like a ship to look. Whereas the Bayeux tapistry
shows William's fleet all bright with the hulls painted in stripes of
yellow and green and red. The vessels all look like Viking ships,
double ended, dragon heads, clinker built, single masted square rigged.
It's satisfying to know that paint good enough to go to sea was
availiable to make the Viking ships look better than just tar will.
David Starr
Soren Larsen
> Soren Larsen wrote:
>> Long presentation video in english at:
>>
>> http://www.havhingsten.dk/index.php?id=446&L=0
>>
>> Good connection needed.
>>
>> Complete with talking heads, heroic speaker, tourist minister and
>> nice pictures.
>>
>> Interesting to see that actually seems to be better to handle the
>> ship under both sail and oars in newest pictures. Some of the
>> footage from right after the launch wasn't promising - some examples near
>> the end of the
>> video.
>>
>> Soren Larsen
>>
> Excellent video. Played fine over my sluggish cable modem.
> Beautiful shots of the ship under way. Nice video of making planks
> without a saw, splitting oak logs with wedge and sledge hammer. I
> would have liked to see some pictures of smoothing the split planks
> with planes.
At your service
http://kunder.streamworks.dk/vikinger/030326/Planke.htm
Soren Larsen
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>David Starr wrote:
"Windows Media Player cannot play the file because a network
error occurred. The server might not be available. Verify that
you are connected to the network and that your proxy settings are
correct."
Well, I am connected to the network and I don't have a proxy. :-(
Eric Stevens
Soren Larsen
No problems in a new test.
You could try the link at the bottom of this page:
http://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/page.asp?sideid=21&zcs=458
Named: " Den smidige planke "
Eric Stevens
wrote:
Thank you Soren, that opened but not a "smidige planke" to be seen.
Eric Stevens
wag...@yahoo.dk
Eric Stevens skrev:
Try: http://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/
then the link 'filmklip'
then 'den smidige planke'
Soren Larsen
> Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
wrote:
The page suddenly got a whole lot easier for me to navigate when I
switched the language to English. I found the relevant link but again
received the error message as above. I suspect the problem may lie in
some incompatibility between me, the site and my ISP. I'll keep
working on it as I want to view those videos.
Many thanks for the help so far.
Eric Stevens
Soren Larsen
Now I have encountered the error
I suspect badly configured connection management by the host.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
Aah - thank you. Now that's one less thing I have to worry about. I'll
just keep trying until they fix it. :-)
Eric Stevens
Tron
> David Starr wrote:
>> Soren Larsen wrote:
>>> Long presentation video in english at:
>>>
>>> http://www.havhingsten.dk/index.php?id=446&L=0
>>>
....... Nice video of making planks
>> without a saw, splitting oak logs with wedge and sledge hammer.
Maybe I'm mixing it up with how they split rock before dynamite, but I seem
to remember something about
wetting dry wedges, using the expansion force. But perhaps that took too
long time in this kind of industry.
>
> At your service
>
> http://kunder.streamworks.dk/vikinger/030326/Planke.htm
>
Excellent.
Couldn't help reflecting that this kind of plank essentially is a natural
grown rope, i.e. a bundle of fibres, naturally and lignistically adhering to
one another. Stretched over a framework rigid enough to keep the
"plank-ropes" taut, the structural strength must be fantastic (IIRC; the
breaking point for stretched wood almost equals that of steel), while at the
same time giving that flexibility that allows a longship in a swell to
deform without breaking.
Also, I'd hazard that the keel is the weak point of the construction. A hard
rock contact or a violent torque in high waves that broke the joints in the
keel (in the ships long enough to have joined keels) would have instantly
broken the ship; without the rigidity of the bow and stern to stretch the
planks, the whole thing must have become more of a weave basket than a boat.
Perhaps also the gunwale, or the upper plank row, was structurally more
important than the other plank rows.
Do we have any information on naturally wrecked medieaval vessels of these
and simlar types? (I guess the Roskilde and similar boat finds have been ...
loaded with stones and then got their hull breached...?, for a controlled
scuttle.)
The only thing that looked "wrong" (i.e. unfamiliar) was the .....
"caulking" (?) (putting fibres between planks to make the hull water tight).
We were taught to fold the fibres in a certain way in order to compact them;
without compacting, it wouldn't keep the water out. Here, the fibres are
simply laid in the gap between the planks.
But I guess the wrights have faithfully copied what they have seen in the
original .... Perhaps the use of nails allowed them to draw the planks
together with such force that the fibres were compacted that way?
T
leo schmit
Just one question, in regions without oak, like Nord Troendelag for example,
a major point of departure for what later were to be called 'vikings', was
there similar shipbuilding, were materials imported, or was local material
used?
"Tron" <tron...@frizurf.no> wrote in message
news:gvydnVvx66D...@telenor.com...
Tron
"leo schmit" <ltsc...@wanadoo.nl> skrev i melding
news:456eb4e1$0$96349$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> Indeed, very nice video.
> Just one question, in regions without oak, like Nord Troendelag for
> example,
> a major point of departure for what later were to be called 'vikings', was
> there similar shipbuilding, were materials imported, or was local material
> used?
There aren't that many ship finds in Troendelag ....
According to this wonderful page:
http://home.online.no/~joeolavl/viking/kronologi.htm ,
one boat (not a ship) found in Bårset in Troms was all pine.
So a basis in building small stuff in local materials must have been there.
OTOH Skuldelev I was pine, too; at least the keel and strakes (the hull?).
It is natural to assume that they imported oak. If the stone age guys could
trade flint and green stone around Skagerrak, the Troendere should probably
be able to ship planks from Vestfold.
Some new finds may bring more info:
Fant ukjent skipstype
Arkeologer har gjort overraskende funn på Avaldsnes. Nå er «the missing
link» mellom vikingskip og middelalderfartøy på plass i historien.
ROAR E. JACOBSEN
- Rett nedenfor kirken har arkeologene de siste ukene fjernet en del mudder
fra et skip som ligger på grunt vann, og avdekket en helt ukjent skipstype.
Sannsynligvis er det et krigsskip fra 1200-tallet, forteller leder for
avaldsnesprosjektet, Marit Synnøve Vea til Haugesunds Avis.
Undersøkelsene er gjort av marinearkeologer fra Stavanger, Bergen og
Sverige. De har hatt en utrolig spennende periode på den gamle kongsgården.
- Ja, dette hadde de nok ikke ventet seg. Stort sett er skroget likt et
vikingskip. En smal bakende og kraftig spant viser at skipet trolig var ment
for tung last og stor fart, sier Vea.
Håkonsen
Skipet stammer fra den tiden kong Håkon Håkonsen regjerte, og han hadde
behov for skip som kunne frakte folk og materiell raskt over Nordsjøen.
- Vi tror gjerne at det er et av Håkonsens skip.
- Hva gjør dere videre?
- På grunn av den økonomiske situasjonen forskningsarbeidet i Norge står
ovenfor, vil vi framover avdekke littegranne mer av skipet, slik at vi kan
få laget en passende modell og vise fram, forteller Marit Synnøve Vea.
---
Fant unik kongegrav
.......
Unikt funn: Moderne teknologi har gitt arkeologene innsyn i en grav som var
en konge verdig på Stiklestad. Arkeolog Eskil Følstad er begeistret.
Arkeologene har ved hjelp av moderne teknologi fått se direkte inn i det som
kan være en kongshaug av dimensjoner. Det er snakk om to monumentale
gravhauger på en kornåker like nordvest for Stiklestad
kirke............Sjelden steinkiste
Åkeren hvor gravhaugen ligger er blitt kartlagt med et såkalt gradiometer,
........Til sammen er det foretatt rundt 16700 målinger over et areal på
120x80 meter.Ruinene har blant annet avdekket en svær steinkiste, som er
svært uvanlig å finne på disse breddegrader. Mye tyder dessuten på at en av
gravene skjuler et skip og at det er rester etter et langhus på stedet.-
Dette er et helt unikt funn. Gravkisten er så sjeldent at jeg knapt nok har
hørt om det tidligere, sier Stenvik, full av begeistring.- Det har åpenbart
vært en eller flere begravelser. I tillegg antyder målingen en skipsformet
gravhaug på hele 50 meter.
Everybody wants to know whether there is a ship down there. If so, it might
be the largest ever found.
T
David Starr
> "Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> skrev i melding
> news:45699540$0$14042$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...
>> David Starr wrote:
>>> Soren Larsen wrote:
>>>> Long presentation video in english at:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.havhingsten.dk/index.php?id=446&L=0
>>>>
>
> ....... Nice video of making planks
>>> without a saw, splitting oak logs with wedge and sledge hammer.
>
> Maybe I'm mixing it up with how they split rock before dynamite, but I seem
> to remember something about
> wetting dry wedges, using the expansion force. But perhaps that took too
> long time in this kind of industry.
Wood is split with either an axe, or metal wedges (bronze in
antiquity, iron later on, steel today). Axe is faster on smaller wood.
For those big 2-3 foot trees, an axe just sinks in. So you use one or
more wedges and just keep hammering them into the wood until it splits.
>
> Couldn't help reflecting that this kind of plank essentially is a natural
> grown rope, i.e. a bundle of fibres, naturally and lignistically adhering to
> one another. Stretched over a framework rigid enough to keep the
> "plank-ropes" taut, the structural strength must be fantastic (IIRC; the
> breaking point for stretched wood almost equals that of steel), while at the
> same time giving that flexibility that allows a longship in a swell to
> deform without breaking.
From a carpenter's point of view, split planks have the same
mechanical properties as sawn planks. The only difference is a sawn
plank is more uniform in thickness and smoother than a raw split plank.
After splitting, the planks must have been planed until there are as
smooth and uniform as a sawn plank. This can be accomplished with
ordinary hand planes, but hand planing 40 foot planks is a lot of work
and skilled work at that. We modern woodworkers, used to our powered
jointers and thickness planers, are awed by the skill and sweat needed
to hand plane all the planks used by a 30 meter wooden vessel.
Wood planks (either sawn or split) have plenty of compression
strength as well as great tensile strength. A solid wood hull will hold
its shape with no need for external tension.
>
> Also, I'd hazard that the keel is the weak point of the construction. A hard
> rock contact or a violent torque in high waves that broke the joints in the
> keel (in the ships long enough to have joined keels) would have instantly
> broken the ship; without the rigidity of the bow and stern to stretch the
> planks, the whole thing must have become more of a weave basket than a boat.
> Perhaps also the gunwale, or the upper plank row, was structurally more
> important than the other plank rows.
> Do we have any information on naturally wrecked medieaval vessels of these
> and simlar types? (I guess the Roskilde and similar boat finds have been ...
> loaded with stones and then got their hull breached...?, for a controlled
> scuttle.)
>
> The only thing that looked "wrong" (i.e. unfamiliar) was the .....
> "caulking" (?) (putting fibres between planks to make the hull water tight).
> We were taught to fold the fibres in a certain way in order to compact them;
> without compacting, it wouldn't keep the water out. Here, the fibres are
> simply laid in the gap between the planks.
> But I guess the wrights have faithfully copied what they have seen in the
> original .... Perhaps the use of nails allowed them to draw the planks
> together with such force that the fibres were compacted that way?
>
> T
Actually those are not nails. They are rivets that go clean thru both
planks and are "clinched" (bent over) with a hammer drawing the two
planks tightly together. Such a vessel is said to be "clincher" or
"clinker" built. The rivets bond the individual planks together strongly
enough that the entire hull forms a single load bearing member. The
rivets squeeze the planks tightly together and the plank-to-plank
friction is high enough to transfer loads from plank to plank. In other
words the hull planks are bonded together into a single wooden
structure. The loads are carried by the hull planking, there are few to
no ribs, and the keel is little thicker than the other strakes. The
main strength of the hull comes from the planking, not the keel.
In modern times we call such constuction "monocoque" for racing cars
or aircraft. Monocoque construction is the strongest and lightest way
to build anything. The skin of a monocoque vehicle is a load bearing
member contributing strength rather than just adding to the weight.
For than matter, the clinker build (planks riveted together, few to no
ribs, not much keel) continued in the New England area under the name of
"lapstrake construction" until fiberglass replaced wood in the 1960's.
The finest power boats used to be wood lapstrake Lymans, in sizes from
16 foot up to 35 foot.
Clinker build was a northern tradition. The Mediterranean tradition
is to use a strong keel and stout ribs to carry the loads with planks
along merely to keep the water out. This is called "carvel build", and
the strength of carvel build vessels does depend upon the strength of
their major timbers (keel and ribs).
David Starr
Tron
"David Starr" <dstarr...@adelpha.net> skrev i melding
news:hJSdnecRsLnvBfLY...@adelphia.com...
> Actually those are not nails. They are rivets that go clean thru both
> planks and are "clinched" (bent over) with a hammer drawing the two planks
> tightly together. Such a vessel is said to be "clincher" or "clinker"
> built. The rivets bond the individual planks together strongly enough that
> the entire hull forms a single load bearing member. The rivets squeeze
> the planks tightly together and the plank-to-plank friction is high enough
> to transfer loads from plank to plank. In other words the hull planks are
> bonded together into a single wooden structure. The loads are carried by
> the hull planking, there are few to no ribs, and the keel is little
> thicker than the other strakes. The main strength of the hull comes from
> the planking, not the keel.
> In modern times we call such constuction "monocoque" for racing cars or
> aircraft. Monocoque construction is the strongest and lightest way to
> build anything. The skin of a monocoque vehicle is a load bearing member
> contributing strength rather than just adding to the weight.
...
The Mediterranean tradition
> is to use a strong keel and stout ribs to carry the loads with planks
> along merely to keep the water out. This is called "carvel build", and
> the strength of carvel build vessels does depend upon the strength of
> their major timbers (keel and ribs).
>
Thx.
It sounds like the difference between our internal ("Caravel") skeleton and
and insect ("Clinker") exo-skeleton.
Someone observed that a split plank had the same fibres all the way, while a
sawn plank _may_ have had discontinuous (?) fibres.
It was that which reminded me of the "rope" aspect of split planks. I just
thought that with all that tensile and compression strength of wood, it
would be ...fortuitous? to also exploit this as a construction feature; and
the only way to do this, it seems to me, would be to have the keel and
strakes exert some tension on the planks. But this speculative hypothesis
may be laid to rest, I take it?
T
David Starr
> Hi,
>
> Thx.
> It sounds like the difference between our internal ("Caravel") skeleton and
> and insect ("Clinker") exo-skeleton.
Exactly.
>
> Someone observed that a split plank had the same fibres all the way, while a
> sawn plank _may_ have had discontinuous (?) fibres.
True. But the split plank is then planed smooth so any waviness in the
wood grain is sliced off. The planks have to be planed smooth, otherwise
they won't fit together water tight. The result after planing is the
same whether the plank is split or sawn.
> It was that which reminded me of the "rope" aspect of split planks. I just
> thought that with all that tensile and compression strength of wood, it
> would be ...fortuitous? to also exploit this as a construction feature; and
> the only way to do this, it seems to me, would be to have the keel and
> strakes exert some tension on the planks. But this speculative hypothesis
> may be laid to rest, I take it?
>
> T
>
Yes. The impressive part of the Viking hull is the extreme
lightness combined with
strength great enough to venture off shore. At sea, in rough weather, a
wave will lift the hull in the center leaving the ends hanging free.
This puts a horrible strain on the hull, and if strength is lacking, the
hull can break in two.
David Starr
Eric Stevens
<dstarr...@adelpha.net> wrote:
>Tron wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>
>> Thx.
>> It sounds like the difference between our internal ("Caravel") skeleton and
>> and insect ("Clinker") exo-skeleton.
>
>Exactly.
>>
>> Someone observed that a split plank had the same fibres all the way, while a
>> sawn plank _may_ have had discontinuous (?) fibres.
>
>True. But the split plank is then planed smooth so any waviness in the
>wood grain is sliced off. The planks have to be planed smooth, otherwise
>they won't fit together water tight. The result after planing is the
>same whether the plank is split or sawn.
The vikings deabt with that problem by chamfering the edges - planing
only those parts of the edges where the planks overlapped.
>
>> It was that which reminded me of the "rope" aspect of split planks. I just
>> thought that with all that tensile and compression strength of wood, it
>> would be ...fortuitous? to also exploit this as a construction feature; and
>> the only way to do this, it seems to me, would be to have the keel and
>> strakes exert some tension on the planks. But this speculative hypothesis
>> may be laid to rest, I take it?
>>
>> T
>>
> Yes. The impressive part of the Viking hull is the extreme
>lightness combined with
>strength great enough to venture off shore. At sea, in rough weather, a
>wave will lift the hull in the center leaving the ends hanging free.
>This puts a horrible strain on the hull, and if strength is lacking, the
>hull can break in two.
>
>David Starr
>
Eric Stevens
Soren Larsen
> "leo schmit" <ltsc...@wanadoo.nl> skrev i melding
> news:456eb4e1$0$96349$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
>> Indeed, very nice video.
>> Just one question, in regions without oak, like Nord Troendelag for
>> example,
>> a major point of departure for what later were to be called
>> 'vikings', was there similar shipbuilding, were materials imported,
>> or was local material used?
>
> There aren't that many ship finds in Troendelag ....
> According to this wonderful page:
> http://home.online.no/~joeolavl/viking/kronologi.htm ,
> one boat (not a ship) found in Bårset in Troms was all pine.
> So a basis in building small stuff in local materials must have been
> there. OTOH Skuldelev I was pine, too; at least the keel and strakes
> (the hull?).
Ther is an article on the use of pine wood in the Bårset boat in
'shipshape', Roskilde 1995
by Jan Bojer Godal isbn 87-85180-27-0
"Boatboards
Boat boards should be pliable, strong and resistant to cracking. They must
tolerate bending and twisting. They are also affected by diagonal pressures
during use. Stave split boards with small knots, taken from nearest the pith
of a tree are strongest when exposed to twisting and most resistant to
cracking. The outer wood from the lowest part of the trunk is usually knot
free, while wood from near the pith has many small knots which bind the wood
in the middle of a board and prevent cracking.
Boards taken from a log split through the pith, as is usually done when
cleaving pine boards, are radially split along the edges but split on a
tangent in the middle of the board. Such boards are resistant to cracking,
with a good nail hold through the radially split "edge-wood" where rivets
are placed in clinker built boats. The middle of a board is less resistant
to cracking. The cigar shaped cross-section of a board is one illustration
of how shaping is an adaptation to inherent characteristics of the wood.
Boards which are thickest in the middle will be pliable when twisted, and
when bent and twisted they lay flat. After boards were sawn, they were
thinned at the stem and the stern where bending and twisting pressures are
greatest. Boards which are not thinned will buckle or bulge. A bulge alters
the intended shape and increases the risk of
cracking.
Planks may be used in areas of the boat which are entirely straight and high
up on the hull. The pliable hull swings with the waves and twists along the
axis of the keel. Planks have only been used in the uppermost strakes of
Skuldelev 1 and the Gokstad ship. In western Norwegian boats, planks are
often used for the middle parts of the two uppermost strakes."
Soren Larsen
Soren Larsen
> Tron wrote:
> Clinker build was a northern tradition. The Mediterranean tradition
> is to use a strong keel and stout ribs to carry the loads with planks
> along merely to keep the water out. This is called "carvel build",
Actually the ancient Mediterreranean tradition of mortice-tenon construction
of the hull was a 'hull first' tradition where the structural integrity of
the vessel also depended on the hull.
The frame first carvel building was a late development.
So there are more than one Mediterranean tradition.
David Starr
Can you elaborate on this?
David Starr
Eric Stevens
Soren is correct. In fact, even today, Arab dhows are built hull first
with rough and knotty bits of wood selected as sections of frames to
fit the shell. Mind you, the construction of the frames follows along
not far behind the hull. But it's definitely hull first.
Eric Stevens