June 18, 1815: Waterloo
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
June 18, 1815
Napoleon is defeated at the Battle of Waterloo by a joint
British, German and Dutch force, under the command of the
Duke of Wellington and General Gebhard von Bluecher.
Surreyman
Breaking news!
Surreyman
John Kane
wrote:
Will this affect the markets on Monday?
John Kane Kingstaon ON Canada
Dennis
What'll this mean for the pound sterling?
D. Spencer Hines
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Dennis" <tsalagi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9C314508D624ts...@130.133.1.4...
Raymond O'Hara
"Surreyman" <alandavi...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:3549c771-b065-4563...@n4g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
Breaking news!
Surreyman
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Somehow the eagle and flag of the 1st regiment of the old guard ended up in
the Gardiner Museum in Boston Massachusetts.
the eagle was stolen in the great art heist but the flag is still there.
Dom
wrote:
Europeans have paid dearly for his failure. If only he had created a
European Army and a European Parliament!
Raymond O'Hara
"Dom" <DR...@teikyopost.edu> wrote in message
news:61c787dd-d1f7-4fa1...@f16g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Napoleonic Wars show the good guys don't always win.
Marcus Aurelius
aggressive violence and injustice towards the world through Napolean.
If the milder elements of the French Revolution had been predominant,
as in the American Revolution, the aggression and violence that
Napolean brought to Europe may not have occurred.
Observe good faith and justice towards all Nations; cultivate peace
and harmony with all.
George Washington, in his Farewell Address (17 September 1796)
David H Singanas
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Directorate and Boney successfully kept the Catholic Church
out of France for 20 years. A generation of French children were
raised
in the light of reason and science. But Napoleon traded the French
enlightenment for a crown that was placed on his head by a Roman
Catholic
pope. The submission of the French to priests and their Sunday
masses resumed. Revolutionary ideals were suspended in Europe until
1848.
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dom
> On Jun 21, 7:55 pm, Marcus Aurelius <alexander...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The French Revolution's violence and injustice perpetuated itself into
> > aggressive violence and injustice towards the world through Napolean.
> > If the milder elements of the French Revolution had been predominant,
> > as in the American Revolution, the aggression and violence that
> > Napolean brought to Europe may not have occurred.
> > Observe good faith and justice towards all Nations; cultivate peace
> > and harmony with all.
> > George Washington, in his Farewell Address (17 September 1796)
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Directorate and Boney successfully kept the Catholic Church
> out of France for 20 years. A generation of French children were
> raised
> in the light of reason and science. But Napoleon traded the French
> enlightenment for a crown that was placed on his head by a Roman
> Catholic
Although the pope was present, Napoleon crowned himself, thus becoming
one of the biggest trairors to the republican cause. According to:
http://www.quoteworld.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=880&sid=2a0dead8465df2232652007fe7cace69
he said: "I saw the crown of France on the ground, and I picked it up
with a sword"
Keith Willshaw
"Dom" <DR...@teikyopost.edu> wrote in message
news:61c787dd-d1f7-4fa1...@f16g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
wrote:
>> June 18, 1815
>> Napoleon is defeated at the Battle of Waterloo by a joint
>> British, German and Dutch force, under the command of the
>> Duke of Wellington and General Gebhard von Bluecher.
> Europeans have paid dearly for his failure.
Indeed they did - his wars killed 2.5 million soldiers and sailors and
over 1 million civilians.
> If only he had created a European Army and a European Parliament!
He tried to create a European army by conscrpting every able bodied
man in French controlled territory as for a Parliament anyone who crowns
himself Emperor and makes his brothers into Kings is hardly likely
to implement a meaningful democracy.
Keith
Keith Willshaw
"David H Singanas" <davidh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5605d398-3c9a-421b...@r3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 21, 7:55 pm, Marcus Aurelius <alexander...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The French Revolution's violence and injustice perpetuated itself into
>> aggressive violence and injustice towards the world through Napolean.
>> If the milder elements of the French Revolution had been predominant,
>> as in the American Revolution, the aggression and violence that
>> Napolean brought to Europe may not have occurred.
>> Observe good faith and justice towards all Nations; cultivate peace
>> and harmony with all.
>> George Washington, in his Farewell Address (17 September 1796)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Directorate and Boney successfully kept the Catholic Church
> out of France for 20 years. A generation of French children were
> raised in the light of reason and science.
And the shadow of the Guillotine followed by perpetual warfare which killed
between 500,000 and 800,000 young Frenchmen in 16 years
> But Napoleon traded the French enlightenment for a crown that was placed
> on his head by a RomanCatholic pope.
Actually he cynically used the Catholic Church as a method of strengthening
his power in France and undercutting his opponents in Europe. Three Church
feasts,
Ascension Day, All Saints on November 1, and Christmas, became State
festivals,
while the Church sanctified two state occasions, July 14 and December 2
Note that the enlightenment is generaly considered to have started around
1666 with the foundation of L'Acad�mie fran�aise and ended with the start
of the Napoleonic Wars. Note that the Academy drew its members
predominantly from the bourgeouis not the aristocracy. I suspect neither
Voltaire nor Rousseau would have approved of either the directorate
or the rule of Napoleon Bonaparte.
The greatest achievement of Bonaparte was the codification of French law
in the Code Napoleon but the cost was very high.
> The submission of the French to priests and their Sunday
> masses resumed. Revolutionary ideals were suspended in Europe until
> 1848.
When another self appointed Emperor seized power and ultimately
led France to a disastrous military failure in the war of 1870.
Keith
Surreyman
<ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "David H Singanas" <davidholi...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:5605d398-3c9a-421b...@r3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 21, 7:55 pm, Marcus Aurelius <alexander...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The French Revolution's violence and injustice perpetuated itself into
> >> aggressive violence and injustice towards the world through Napolean.
> >> If the milder elements of the French Revolution had been predominant,
> >> as in the American Revolution, the aggression and violence that
> >> Napolean brought to Europe may not have occurred.
> >> Observe good faith and justice towards all Nations; cultivate peace
> >> and harmony with all.
> >> George Washington, in his Farewell Address (17 September 1796)
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > The Directorate and Boney successfully kept the Catholic Church
> > out of France for 20 years. A generation of French children were
> > raised in the light of reason and science.
>
> And the shadow of the Guillotine followed by perpetual warfare which killed
> between 500,000 and 800,000 young Frenchmen in 16 years
>
> > But Napoleon traded the French enlightenment for a crown that was placed
> > on his head by a RomanCatholic pope.
>
> Actually he cynically used the Catholic Church as a method of strengthening
> his power in France and undercutting his opponents in Europe. Three Church
> feasts,
> Ascension Day, All Saints on November 1, and Christmas, became State
> festivals,
> while the Church sanctified two state occasions, July 14 and December 2
>
> Note that the enlightenment is generaly considered to have started around
> of the Napoleonic Wars. Note that the Academy drew its members
> predominantly from the bourgeouis not the aristocracy. I suspect neither
> Voltaire nor Rousseau would have approved of either the directorate
> or the rule of Napoleon Bonaparte.
>
> The greatest achievement of Bonaparte was the codification of French law
> in the Code Napoleon but the cost was very high.
>
> > The submission of the French to priests and their Sunday
> > masses resumed. Revolutionary ideals were suspended in Europe until
> > 1848.
>
> When another self appointed Emperor seized power and ultimately
> led France to a disastrous military failure in the war of 1870.
>
> Keith
And then there was de Gaulle
Surreyman
William Black
>> When another self appointed Emperor seized power and ultimately
>> led France to a disastrous military failure in the war of 1870.
>>
>
> And then there was de Gaulle
>
> Surreyman
I don't think he lost any wars...
In fact I think he was very careful not to...
--
William Black
Mike Stone
"Keith Willshaw" <ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:p4S%l.21765$wi1...@newsfe16.ams2...
>
>
> The greatest achievement of Bonaparte was the codification of French law
> in the Code Napoleon but the cost was very high.
>
Was even that really his achievement?
I'm sure I read somewhere that the "Code Civile" was largely drafted under
the Republic, and that Nappy's principal contribution was his name. Can
anyone confirm that?
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
"Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of
Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work
strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby in the
reservoir, he turns to the cupboard only to find the vodka bottle empty".
P G Wodehouse - Jill the Reckless
Mike Stone
"Raymond O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:h1mh04$df3$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>>
> The Napoleonic Wars show the good guys don't always win.
>
>
The good guys _did_ win.
After twenty-plus years of carnage, they let France retain her prewar
borders and imposed no indemnity. Far more generous treatment than Napoleon
ever gave a defeated enemy.
After Waterloo, it was nearly forty years before there was another war
between European great powers. By contrast, Nappy rarely went more than a
year before finding some vital necessity to fight someone else. Even when
temporarily at peace with other great powers, he would immediately go
swanning off into Spain or wherever to find a throne for one of his
relatives.
The allies wereno Saints, but they were infinitely better than the man they
defeated.
Keith Willshaw
"Mike Stone" <mws...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7ae21pF...@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> "Keith Willshaw" <ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:p4S%l.21765$wi1...@newsfe16.ams2...
>>
>>
>> The greatest achievement of Bonaparte was the codification of French law
>> in the Code Napoleon but the cost was very high.
>>
>
>
>
> Was even that really his achievement?
>
Yes , without his influence it would never have become law.
> I'm sure I read somewhere that the "Code Civile" was largely drafted under
> the Republic, and that Nappy's principal contribution was his name. Can
> anyone confirm that?
>
Jean Jacques R�gis de Cambac�r�s was the gentleman who drafted most
of the Civil Code while he was Second Consul. The First Consul at the time
was one Napoleon Bonaparte. Most historians accept that it was Napoleon
who backed this and permitted it to come to fruition.
The first version of the Penal Code was produced in 1791, by
Louis Michel le Peletier de Saint-Fargeau and superseded by a
version drafted by Napoleon in 1806.
Keith
William Black
>
>
> "Raymond O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:h1mh04$df3$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>>>
>> The Napoleonic Wars show the good guys don't always win.
>>
>>
>
> The good guys _did_ win.
>
> After twenty-plus years of carnage, they let France retain her prewar
> borders and imposed no indemnity. Far more generous treatment than
> Napoleon ever gave a defeated enemy.
>
> After Waterloo, it was nearly forty years before there was another war
> between European great powers. By contrast, Nappy rarely went more than a
> year before finding some vital necessity to fight someone else. Even when
> temporarily at peace with other great powers, he would immediately go
> swanning off into Spain or wherever to find a throne for one of his
> relatives.
>
> The allies wereno Saints, but they were infinitely better than the man
> they defeated.
You have to remember who you're dealing with.
Ray is an Irish-American of the very worst sort.
He really believes that anything the British are involved in must be evil.
--
William Black
Dom
<ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Mike Stone" <mwst...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:7ae21pF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> > "Keith Willshaw" <ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:p4S%l.21765$wi1...@newsfe16.ams2...
>
> >> The greatest achievement of Bonaparte was the codification of French law
> >> in the Code Napoleon but the cost was very high.
>
> > Was even that really his achievement?
>
> Yes , without his influence it would never have become law.
>
> > I'm sure I read somewhere that the "Code Civile" was largely drafted under
> > the Republic, and that Nappy's principal contribution was his name. Can
> > anyone confirm that?
>
> of the Civil Code while he was Second Consul. The First Consul at the time
> was one Napoleon Bonaparte. Most historians accept that it was Napoleon
> who backed this and permitted it to come to fruition.
>
> The first version of the Penal Code was produced in 1791, by
> Louis Michel le Peletier de Saint-Fargeau and superseded by a
> version drafted by Napoleon in 1806.
I recall reading that Napoleon appointed a committe consisting of an
equal number of "liberal" and "conservative" jurists. Is there
anything to this story?
Keith Willshaw
On Jun 24, 3:38 am, "Keith Willshaw"
>
>> The first version of the Penal Code was produced in 1791, by
>> Louis Michel le Peletier de Saint-Fargeau and superseded by a
>> version drafted by Napoleon in 1806.
> I recall reading that Napoleon appointed a committe consisting of an
> equal number of "liberal" and "conservative" jurists. Is there
> anything to this story?
I dont doubt that there were many people involved in doing the work
and Cambraceres was certanly not a hard line radical. He had opposed
the execution of the King and disapproved of Napoleon's increasing
monopoly of power so its likely that both groups were represented.
Keith
am...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> "Surreyman" <alandavid.spen...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:3549c771-b065-4563...@n4g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> On 20 June, 10:56, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
> > June 18, 1815
> > Napoleon is defeated at the Battle of Waterloo by a joint
> > British, German and Dutch force, under the command of the
> > Duke of Wellington and General Gebhard von Bluecher.
>
> Breaking news!
>
> Surreyman
>
>
> Somehow the eagle and flag of the 1st regiment of the old guard ended up in
> the Gardiner Museum in Boston Massachusetts.
It most definitely did not because museum with this name does not
exist in Boston. It is Isabella Stewart GARDNER Museum.
David H Singanas
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well the main thing is that Ray did go there and his research is to
our benefit. He is not "Irish of the worst sort" by any means.
My next query is...what happened to "Napoleon Brandy" ?
When I was a kid in the 1940's, the adult males used to talk about
a brandy that was worth its weight in gold because it was a vintage
that dated from the time of the Grande Armée. The lore was that from
time to time, kegs and bottles of this brandy were still being
discovered and were then sold to the highest bidder.
What's the update on this urban legend ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~
Daniel
C'mon that's not just "Brandy" wine but "Cognac", please :-)
Processed from a wine that wasn't too good (although it is debatable,
methinks the Loire valley produces the most interesting wines in
France, and I realize this is subjective and requires further
scrupulous testing before I can clarify my mind :-).
So Cognac is as engineered a beverage as Champagne is, or Coke I'd
argue. "Napoleon" just refers to ingredients that have aged somewhat,
Extra Old Napoleon being six years, I think. Not much different than
the malted stuff in that respect.
The 1811 Grande Reserve seems to trade for around ten grands. Watch
out counterfeits. I'm not sure there's value in there, more like an
investment. 20-40 year old Cognac would seem optimal, and certainly
drinkable.
Jack Linthicum
Napoleon Brandy is brandy that has been aged five years. Prices about
$15-25. There are at least two Chinese "Napoleon" brandies on the
market. Napoleon is supposed to be aged cognac but cognac has a
special meaning that does not include most of France let alone China.
"Within the Cognac industry, there is a system of certification of
age. The certificates are based on the length of time that the cognac
has spent in oak.
VS (Very Special) – is at least two years old.
VSOP (Very Superior Old Pale) – also called a reserve and at least
four years old.
XO (Extra Old) – also called a Napoleon is at least six years old.
Most cognac houses will use older than those required by law. Many
allow their XO’s to reach a minimum of 20 years in order to reveal
their best."
Daniel
> $15-25. There are at least two Chinese "Napoleon" brandies on the
> market. Napoleon is supposed to be aged cognac but cognac has a
> special meaning that does not include most of France let alone China.
You'd be amazed the price they'd ask for anything "Cognac" in China,
fake or not. It's not just regular pedantry but heavy guanxi
maintenance. And you get to drink the stuff "russian toast" style,
what a f*cking joke. As for counterfeited bottles, you may pull a
lucky number, can recall a Chinese Medoc once that was more than
average inside out. Label wasn't misspelled. Need re-reverse engineer
that thing.
> "Within the Cognac industry, there is a system of certification of
> age. The certificates are based on the length of time that the cognac
> has spent in oak.
>
> VS (Very Special) – is at least two years old.
>
> VSOP (Very Superior Old Pale) – also called a reserve and at least
> four years old.
>
> XO (Extra Old) – also called a Napoleon is at least six years old.
> Most cognac houses will use older than those required by law. Many
> allow their XO’s to reach a minimum of 20 years in order to reveal
> their best."
>
> http://www.twinliquors.com/index.php?view=items&cid=2%3Aask-the-twins...
Try Armagnac once. Less hyped thn Cognac, excellent value, fewer
marketing margins I assume.
Jack Linthicum
There were California brandies from third rate coo-ops that could
stand up to cognacs. East side Coop, Lodi, Royal Host, for one
Daniel
> stand up to cognacs. East side Coop, Lodi, Royal Host, for one
Yes. There were also very expensive an well established Spanish
"Cognacs" but they had to revert to Brandy after they were sued. Same
for "Champagne" in Spain and California I hear. Me, as long as I can
order a "Charolais" steak anywhere, can cope with any appellation for
a matching liquid I'll always find :-)
am...@hotmail.com
> On Jun 24, 2:46 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 21, 11:03 am, "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Surreyman" <alandavid.spen...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:3549c771-b065-4563...@n4g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> > > On 20 June, 10:56, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > June 18, 1815
> > > > Napoleon is defeated at the Battle of Waterloo by a joint
> > > > British, German and Dutch force, under the command of the
> > > > Duke of Wellington and General Gebhard von Bluecher.
>
> > > Breaking news!
>
> > > Surreyman
>
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > Somehow the eagle and flag of the 1st regiment of the old guard ended up in
> > > the Gardiner Museum in Boston Massachusetts.
>
> > It most definitely did not because museum with this name does not
> > exist in Boston. It is Isabella Stewart GARDNER Museum.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Well the main thing is that Ray did go there and his research is to
> our benefit.
As I said, there is no 'Gardiner Museum' in Boston.
> He is not "Irish of the worst sort" by any means.
Did I make any comment about his ethnicity?
>
> My next query is...what happened to "Napoleon Brandy" ?
Nothing. It is widely available in the liquor stores. Both as brandy
and cognac.
> When I was a kid in the 1940's, the adult males used to talk about
> a brandy that was worth its weight in gold because it was a vintage
> that dated from the time of the Grande Armée.
It is one of the popular cognacs (and brandies, if you are looking for
a cheaper stuff). There are Courvoisier Napoleon and Camus Napoleon
(and probably more).
An urban legend says that Courvoisier Napoleon was Nappy's favorite
brand but the problems is that Nappy died in 1821 and Courvoisier
company was formally established in 1835. Of course, Emmanuel
Courvoisier started running his wine and spirit company much earlier
and in 1811 Nappy visited their warehouse in Bercy.
Vintage dating from <whatever> does not mean that all product is
dating from the same period.
> The lore was that from
> time to time, kegs and bottles of this brandy were still being
> discovered and were then sold to the highest bidder.
> What's the update on this urban legend ?
Cognac does not improve with an age in the bottle so the cost should
not be too high (unless there are some historical considerations
related to this specific bottle). OTOH, if somebody foud a keg from
thjis period, it would probably be different story.
William Black
> Try Armagnac once. Less hyped thn Cognac, excellent value, fewer
> marketing margins I assume.
For goodness sake don't tell people, the price will go up...
--
William Black
am...@hotmail.com
> > $15-25. There are at least two Chinese "Napoleon" brandies on the
> > market. Napoleon is supposed to be aged cognac but cognac has a
> > special meaning that does not include most of France let alone China.
>
> You'd be amazed the price they'd ask for anything "Cognac" in China,
> fake or not. It's not just regular pedantry but heavy guanxi
> maintenance. And you get to drink the stuff "russian toast" style,
> what a f*cking joke.
This actually makes sense: if you are trying to drink a BAD cognac
slowly, the experience is horrible. Historically, the cognacs in
Russia were predominantly bad, going back to XIX century (with the
exception of the top level Armenian 'cognacs' and some other stuff of
a limited availability) so they had been drinking it the same way as
vodka: from the shot glasses and in a gulp. Sniffing something that
'smells as a crushed bed bug' was not the smartest idea.
:-)
dino
David H Singanas says...
>
>On Jun 24, 2:46=A0pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Jun 21, 11:03=A0am, "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Surreyman" <alandavid.spen...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >news:3549c771-b065-4563...@n4g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>> > On 20 June, 10:56, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > > June 18, 1815
>> > > Napoleon is defeated at the Battle of Waterloo by a joint
>> > > British, German and Dutch force, under the command of the
>> > > Duke of Wellington and General Gebhard von Bluecher.
>>
>> > Breaking news!
>>
>> > Surreyman
>>
>----=AD------------------------------------------
>>
>> > Somehow the eagle and flag of the 1st regiment of the old guard ended u=
>p in
>> > the Gardiner Museum in Boston Massachusetts.
>>
>> It most definitely did not because museum with this name does not
>> exist in Boston. It is Isabella Stewart GARDNER Museum.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Well the main thing is that Ray did go there and his research is to
>our benefit. He is not "Irish of the worst sort" by any means.
>
>My next query is...what happened to "Napoleon Brandy" ?
>When I was a kid in the 1940's, the adult males used to talk about
>a brandy that was worth its weight in gold because it was a vintage
>time to time, kegs and bottles of this brandy were still being
>discovered and were then sold to the highest bidder.
>What's the update on this urban legend ?
>
>David H
>~~~~~~~~~
We know 'Short Stuff' liked Champagne.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f221/terracops/IMG_5132.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f221/terracops/IMG_5136.jpg
Who knows what lurks behind locked doors under Epernay?
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f221/terracops/IMG_5130.jpg
Champagne anyone?
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f221/terracops/IMG_5156.jpg
How I would appear after a few bottles of Champagne, the Happy Wine...
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f221/terracops/IMG_5157.jpg
Moet & Chandon also makes the label Dom Perignon, some of which is aged for up
to 60 years before its final corking.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f221/terracops/IMG_5163.jpg
Legend has it that Napoleon stopped by Moet (or whatever is was called then) to
stock up on Champagne about a week before each of his military campaigns...
except Waterloo...
Jack Linthicum
> In article <56c5be4e-b1a5-4dfd-afed-694ee868f...@r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Champagne is no different from any other type of wine. It can be
cellared (kept and improved with age) but the degree to which you can
age a bottle of champagne without ruining it will vary according to:
1) The particular champagne product you have. Often the label on the
bottle will give a suggestion or contacting the maker will provide
some advice. A general rule is 3 years is the limit for most modern
products.
2) The conditions under which the champagne is stored. Proper
cellaring should be in a cool dark place where there is little
temperature variation throughout the seasons. Poor cellaring
conditions can spoil a wine outright or reduce its possible cellaring
time. This can be due to overly vigorous fermetation in the bottle due
to the wine being too warm or the cork deteriorating and failing to
seal the bottle properly.
Most champagne will benefit from a couple of years (2-3 is generally
safe) because it is released onto the market quite "young". This is
done to allow people to cellar it and to reduce the rist of the
product spoiling prior to sale.
Do NOT get fooled by the term "vintage" as opposed to "non-vintage".
These words are often used with total ignorance as to what they really
mean. A vintage champagne is simply one where the wine in the bottle
comes from a single year's grape harvest. A non-vintage champagne is
simply one where it is a blended product from multiple harvests.
Vintage champagne is not always better than non-vintage!! Clever
marketing by the wine industry tries to make you think paying more for
a bottle with "vintage" on the label and a year date (non-vintage
never have a year on the label) is always a better choice. Non-vintage
champagne is traditionally a more reliable product due to its blending
that tends to ensure little alteration in the quality of the wine you
buy from year to year. Vintage wines can benefit from longer cellaring
but it depends entirely on the champagne in question.
Also do not be fooled by the concept that "older is better" when it
comes to all wines and even some spirits. While many wines (including
champagne) can benefit from aging, they do not store well past a few
years and will eventually turn to vinegar. Again, the age of alcoholic
beverages is a very effective marketing strategy to convince buyers to
spend more.
Below is a description of what champagne actually is:
Historically, champagne comes from the Champagne region of France
which has a cold climate which caused what was originally seen as a
flaw in their wine production.
The wines made in the region were high acid wines that were supposed
to slowly ferment in the barrel but the cold winters kept interupting
the process. This is because fermetation is a live biological process
using yeast which stops if conditions are too cold. When these wines
were then bottled, the wine contained a residual portion of unused
sugar that should have been consumed in the barrel fermentation stage.
The dormant yeast from the incomplete barrel fermentation also went
into the bottle with the sugar. When the now bottled wine was warmed
as the seasons changed, fermentation started up again.However, the
wine was now in a cork sealed class bottle which, unlike in a wooden
barrel, did not allow carbon dioxide produced by fermentation to
escape. The gas remained disolved in the wine because of pressure.
This process is called secondary fermentation and is why champagne
(and other sparkling wines) have lots of bubbles.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080421230555AA5ZeGV
William Black
> Do NOT get fooled by the term "vintage" as opposed to "non-vintage".
> These words are often used with total ignorance as to what they really
> mean. A vintage champagne is simply one where the wine in the bottle
> comes from a single year's grape harvest. A non-vintage champagne is
> simply one where it is a blended product from multiple harvests.
>
> Vintage champagne is not always better than non-vintage!! Clever
> marketing by the wine industry tries to make you think paying more for
> a bottle with "vintage" on the label and a year date (non-vintage
> never have a year on the label) is always a better choice. Non-vintage
> champagne is traditionally a more reliable product due to its blending
> that tends to ensure little alteration in the quality of the wine you
> buy from year to year. Vintage wines can benefit from longer cellaring
> but it depends entirely on the champagne in question.
Don't tell Hines.
He once had a hissy fit when I said that only a fool buys expensive vintage
champagne...
The reckons he drinks it regularly...
--
William Black
Daniel
> comes to all wines and even some spirits. While many wines (including
> champagne) can benefit from aging, they do not store well past a few
> years and will eventually turn to vinegar. Again, the age of alcoholic
> beverages is a very effective marketing strategy to convince buyers to
> spend more.
Of course, Cognac, as any Eau de Vie, undergoes changes when aging in
a bottle. It is "productized" in a way it doesn't require further
aging after their market release. Surprises are not to be expected
then, you'll never hear "elle est gouttue c'te fine!"
So you miss all the excitation of those secretive late night
occurrences, when dust-covered, unlabeled and suspicious-looking DIY
liquor bottles surface. Some may carry mysterious tags like "prunes",
"poires", others include solids of some sort, although you can't tell
by color.
Those are features of any good sturdy mansion, and produced after
regular soaked-up guests have left. No more time for sterile Girondins
vs. Montagnards arguing, theories about Napoleon successfully digging
a tunnel. Now is time for complicity.
British Wine & Spirits Trading Houses never could put their hands on
those real treasures :-)
Jack Linthicum
With that freaking Value Added Tax who could?
Jack Linthicum
Cognac doesn't age in the bottle.
http://cognac.com/how-to-determine-the-value-of-a-bottle-of-cognac/
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
Now called "Crown Regency" by the new owner Oak Ridge dba Crown
Regency Distillers.
"The media representatives and wine merchants present rated Rey-Martin
X.O. ($75) first, Hennessy VSOP ($28) second, Crown Regency X.O.S.
($25) third and Courvoisier V.S. ($15) fourth. The tasting was billed
by Oak Ridge Marketing Director Ron Kent as "an international
competitive tasting evaluation to establish the quality classification
of Crown Regency X.O.S."
Daniel
> > > marketing margins I assume.
>
> > There were California brandies from third rate coo-ops that could
> > stand up to cognacs. East side Coop, Lodi, Royal Host, for one
>
> Now called "Crown Regency" by the new owner Oak Ridge dba Crown
> Regency Distillers.
That's what I don't get. They achieve quality, work on something
distinctive, and they name it after a Detroit rig you'd feel ashamed
driving. They even considered naming it Californiac, now how smart is
that?
If they had a clue, they'd name it "Lodi" since that's the place it's
made, easy to remember in any language. They'd give it 150 years
keeping up the good work, and they'd have an appellation nobody could
steal from them.
Daniel
>
> http://cognac.com/how-to-determine-the-value-of-a-bottle-of-cognac/
That's what I read, but I'm not so sure. There's no oak but there
still is sugar and a cork, not always sealed.
Daniel
Doesn't apply to B2B nor to consumers abroad. Certainly no taxes on
DIY liquors.
Jack Linthicum
East Side is already taken by New York so
Stuck in Lodi again
Just about a year ago, I set out on the road,
Seekin my fame and fortune, lookin for a pot of gold.
Things got bad, and things got worse, I guess you will know the tune.
Oh ! lord, stuck in lodi again.
Rode in on the greyhound, Ill be walkin out if I go.
I was just passin through, must be seven months or more.
Ran out of time and money, looks like they took my friends.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in lodi again.
The man from the magazine said I was on my way.
Somewhere I lost connections, ran out of songs to play.
I came into town, a one night stand, looks like my plans fell through
Oh ! lord, stuck in lodi again.
Mmmm...
If I only had a dollar, for evry song Ive sung.
And evry time Ive had to play while people sat there drunk.
You know, Id catch the next train back to where I live.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in lodi again.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in lodi again.
Daniel
hit :-)
Daniel
Doesn't apply to B2B nor to consumers abroad. Certainly no taxes on
DIY liquors.
Jack Linthicum
That would mean a form of aging we call "Making vinegar"
Daniel
>
> > >http://cognac.com/how-to-determine-the-value-of-a-bottle-of-cognac/
>
> > That's what I read, but I'm not so sure. There's no oak but there
> > still is sugar and a cork, not always sealed.
>
> That would mean a form of aging we call "Making vinegar"
The most common fouling is "maderisation". When something turns into
vinegar, I'm happy.
I'm not so sure about Cognac 'cause the best I ever had was a couple
of forgotten 40 year old bottles with bad corks, there had been
evaporation. But had they been raised inside a barrel for that long
they'd probably have been even better. How could we know for sure
without tasting again and again?
Surreyman
I'm a total brandy pleb anyway. Far prefer certain Greek & Cypriot
brandies to the French stuff.
Surreyman
Daniel
> brandies to the French stuff.
Had to do research since "Brandy" is hardly ever used here, save for
elegant ladies. People would rather refer to beverages according to
localities they are produced, Cognac, Armagnac, Pineau des Charentes,
Jurancon, Muscat de Rivesaltes, Mousseux de Limoux, etc., etc.
Term seems to have been coined long time ago to describe a
distillation process "Bunrt wine", applied to lousy wines that
couldn't stand travelling to the Low Lands, and required being
"fortified" with additional alcohol. British jumped on it as they
expanded the the trade worldwide.
I like the Greek stuff too. in the summertime, I tend to drink Ouzo a
substitute to Anisette (I hate Pernod), and Muscat from Samos is
widely avaiblable here, as well as Retsina, which exemplifies how to
make a world-renown original product starting with something not
interesting at all.
William Black
> Term seems to have been coined long time ago to describe a
> distillation process "Bunrt wine", applied to lousy wines that
> couldn't stand travelling to the Low Lands, and required being
> "fortified" with additional alcohol.
No.
It seems to be a description of the distillation process.
Where would they get additional alcohol from?
--
William Black