A history education and beyond....
Sheila J
least this months) She wants to go to Queens (in Kingston) and study
history. After she receives her undergraduate, she wants to go to
Cambridge and study ancient civilizations. Eventually, she would like
to work as a curator in a museum and is aiming high -the British museum,
for example.
Now...can any one pass on any advice that you would give a young girl
with those type of life plans? In particular, I'm thinking -types of
extra=curricular work, scholarships, areas to concentrate on....
Anyone want to weigh in here?
Sheila
Peter Jason
"Sheila J" <mydo...@shaw.ca> wrote in
message
news:yvv%h.163257$DE1.68950@pd7urf2no...
Just to keep her options fully open. Any
16yo will likely reassess the situation in a
few years, with a bit more experience.
J Antero
in.
Tell her to pursue her goals, but to be ready to sell out for a corporate
job in an instant.
"Sheila J" <mydo...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:yvv%h.163257$DE1.68950@pd7urf2no...
D. Patterson
Start with double undergraduate majors in business and natural science,
leaving history as a minor concentration. In a more specific example, major
first in international accounting and second in archaeology, graduating with
these as double majors. History as a minor concentration is used to support
and satisfy in part the Humanities requirements for accountng and basics for
archaeology, especially with courses devoted to ancient civilizations. Use
the undergraduate degree in international accounting for a possible future
MBA and the more immediate job market for people uniquely qualified to
perform the accounting tasks related to private, commercial, and
governmental research grants and related fund accounting for scientific
research projects. Use the undergraduate degree, early student fieldwork in
archaeology and/or paleontology to gain preferential qualification in the
the management and administration of field research projects and
conservation of archaeological and historical artifacts. Use experience in
the management and administration of field research projects to establish
relationships and a reputation with the private and governmental
decisionmakers responsible for funding grants benefiting research,
collections, and museums. Use the postgraduate degrees as needed to
emphasize desired qualifications in archaeology, paleontology, business
and/or governmental administration, and history. The specialized experience
gained in discovering, conserving, and interpreting artifacts can later be
used to establish special qualifications as an historian with respect to
interpreting the historical events that produced those artifacts.
Degrees in history have little employment value by themselves; but job
seekers with extensive and effective practical experience in performing,
managing, and funding the research necessary to discover artifacts, conserve
them, and interpret them for natural history and social history earn a
leading role in such sciences. Every research program and museum is in
perpetual need of funding and management of the funding, and the
professionals with a proven ability to secure such funding and properly
manage the project being funded are the people who are in greatest demand to
manage such activities at museums, universities, and research projects.
Naturally this is an ad hoc opinion, and YMMV.
Bryn
Steer her towards a Foundation course in the Humanities and the Arts.
This will open up many of the possibilities available to her and allow
her to develop her preferences and interests without losing pace.
At her age she will suck up all the information she needs for whatever
discipline she decides to focus on in her later academic career and
firmly cement her confidence in her subject area.
Aims and objectives, aims are the intention and the means to gain her
objectives, the targets of her intentions. Ensure that she sees the
difference between them.
(Educational mode /off)
--
Bryn
It takes years of schooling to
knock the intelligence out of a child.
Renia
> "Sheila J" <mydo...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:yvv%h.163257$DE1.68950@pd7urf2no...
>
>>Our daughter (almost 16) has finally decided on her life path. (or at
>>least this months) She wants to go to Queens (in Kingston) and study
>>history. After she receives her undergraduate, she wants to go to
>>Cambridge and study ancient civilizations. Eventually, she would like to
>>work as a curator in a museum and is aiming high -the British museum, for
>>example.
>>
>>Now...can any one pass on any advice that you would give a young girl with
>>those type of life plans? In particular, I'm thinking -types of
>>extra=curricular work, scholarships, areas to concentrate on....
>>
>>Anyone want to weigh in here?
>>
>>Sheila
>
>
> Start with double undergraduate majors in business and natural science,
> leaving history as a minor concentration. In a more specific example, major
> first in international accounting and second in archaeology, graduating with
> these as double majors.
That would not be possible in England. Chartered Accountancy is
post-graduate study and would involve three years' articled work as an
accountant in a creditable firm. Ditto a business degree. Such a thing
as a double major does not exist.
> History as a minor concentration is used to support
> and satisfy in part the Humanities requirements for accountng and basics for
> archaeology, especially with courses devoted to ancient civilizations.
In England, someone who wanted to work in a high-level job in a
world-class museum would not consider history as a "minor
concentration". It would have to be a major one. Remember, English
universities are more specialised than American ones, it seems, and
don't really mix degrees in majors and minors. Mixing a humantities
degree with a natural sciences one doesn't really happen though
archaeologists doubtless learn modern scientific approaches within their
particular discipline.
> Use
> the undergraduate degree in international accounting for a possible future
> MBA and the more immediate job market for people uniquely qualified to
> perform the accounting tasks related to private, commercial, and
> governmental research grants and related fund accounting for scientific
> research projects.
In England, this is a Chartered Accountant. An MBA is a different field.
Both are totally unrelated to history, ancient or otherwise.
> Use the undergraduate degree, early student fieldwork in
> archaeology and/or paleontology to gain preferential qualification in the
> the management and administration of field research projects and
> conservation of archaeological and historical artifacts. Use experience in
> the management and administration of field research projects to establish
> relationships and a reputation with the private and governmental
> decisionmakers responsible for funding grants benefiting research,
> collections, and museums. Use the postgraduate degrees as needed to
> emphasize desired qualifications in archaeology, paleontology, business
> and/or governmental administration, and history. The specialized experience
> gained in discovering, conserving, and interpreting artifacts can later be
> used to establish special qualifications as an historian with respect to
> interpreting the historical events that produced those artifacts.
This is all achieved under the umbrella of particular universities,
depending on the university's area of research and speciality.
>
> Degrees in history have little employment value by themselves;
No degree has employment value by itself. Its value is in demonstrating
the abilities necessary to attain a degree, a certain level of
intellectual analysis and command of the written language.
D. Patterson
"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:f1mnv1$4fi$1...@mouse.otenet.gr...
> D. Patterson wrote:
>
>> "Sheila J" <mydo...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:yvv%h.163257$DE1.68950@pd7urf2no...
>>
>>>Our daughter (almost 16) has finally decided on her life path. (or at
>>>least this months) She wants to go to Queens (in Kingston) and study
>>>history. After she receives her undergraduate, she wants to go to
>>>Cambridge and study ancient civilizations. Eventually, she would like to
>>>work as a curator in a museum and is aiming high -the British museum, for
>>>example.
>>>
>>>Now...can any one pass on any advice that you would give a young girl
>>>with those type of life plans? In particular, I'm thinking -types of
>>>extra=curricular work, scholarships, areas to concentrate on....
>>>
>>>Anyone want to weigh in here?
>>>
>>>Sheila
>>
>>
>> Start with double undergraduate majors in business and natural science,
>> leaving history as a minor concentration. In a more specific example,
>> major first in international accounting and second in archaeology,
>> graduating with these as double majors.
>
> That would not be possible in England. Chartered Accountancy is
> post-graduate study and would involve three years' articled work as an
> accountant in a creditable firm. Ditto a business degree. Such a thing as
> a double major does not exist.
>
>
Sorry Renia, but you've got it all very muddled up indeed. Although I was
being very specific with regard to a description appropriate for the
American context and not a British context, I was nonetheless descrbing
something very comparable to any British, European, or international
context. I made no comparison whatsoever, direct or indirect, to a Chartered
Accountant. If I had wanted to suggest a Chartered Accountant, I would have
referred to the American equivalent, the Certified Public Accountant (CPA),
and I'm not talking about a Certified Practicing Accountant (CPA) found in
some nations. Earning a CPA license also requires postgraduate experience in
a CPA firm and the passing of the CPA exams. I suggested something entirely
different.
In the United States, a business college may offer baccalaureate degrees in
financial accounting, management accounting, auditing, business management,
business administration, economics, and more. In this case, I suggested
earning a degree in the equivalent of a U.S. business college concentration
for international accounting, because such a degree emphasizes a competency
with the performance of international cash accounting, international
banking, international financial accounting standards, and other skills
which can be highly useful to anyone responsible for the funding and
management of any organization engaged in international activities. I did
not and would not recommend becoming a CPA or Chartered Accountant in this
particular case, because having such a professional license creates a
particular legal liability for the consequnces of such professional services
not applicable to unlicensed accountants and their services. Since the
purpose of earning a degree in international accounting is to prepare the
person to assume responsibility for a successively increasing range of
responsibility for the operational and financial management of research
projects, institutions, and organizations, a background in the business of
academia, social science, and natural science is mandatory to serve such a
purpose. The British Museum pays assistant curators, curators, and similarly
ranked administrators very poorly.
It must be presumed anyone with ambitions towards achieving greater
responsibilities and commensurate financial rewards will ultimately want to
manage projects, institutions, and/or organizations requiring equally
advanced experience and capabilities in academia, funding, and management.
In the past, academics had to acquire management skills outside academia or
in postgraduate studies. Today and in the future, individuals who have made
themselves dual qualified in academic pursuits and the management of
academic organizations are put on the fast track for development as the
future leaders, managers, and decisionmakers for academic organizations.
This phenomenon is witnessed today in the United States when you see
professional educators earning Masters in Business Administration (MBA) as a
prerequisite to qualify for the jobs of school principal, school
superintendant, and superintendant of public instruction; in addition to any
qualifications earned with a PhD in Education.
>> History as a minor concentration is used to support and satisfy in part
>> the Humanities requirements for accountng and basics for archaeology,
>> especially with courses devoted to ancient civilizations.
>
> In England, someone who wanted to work in a high-level job in a
> world-class museum would not consider history as a "minor concentration".
> It would have to be a major one. Remember, English universities are more
> specialised than American ones, it seems, and don't really mix degrees in
> majors and minors. Mixing a humantities degree with a natural sciences one
> doesn't really happen though archaeologists doubtless learn modern
> scientific approaches within their particular discipline.
>
>
Now you are being quite humurous, "someone who wanted to work in a
high-level job in a world-class museum...." The salary for an assistant
curator is only a very very paltry 16,000 for permanent full time work. The
"Required Skills" includes "postgraduate Museums qualifications." This
creates the impression that the candidate must be sufficiently independently
wealthy to afford their own support while they hold the job, not unlike the
historical purchased commissions of Britain's military and naval officers of
the 19th Century. I must presume that most Canadians would ultimately have
greater ambitions than that in their career plans, and having dual
qualifications in an academic field and the financial management skills
needed to support such academic activities will always be an advantage in
any academic field of endeavor.
Uncanny, isn't it, how so many archaeologists from the natural sciences have
written so much of the primary histories used by historians from the social
sciences to write secondary histories?
Contrary to your implications, our colleges do not confer degrees outside
their disciplines either. That is why I described two baccalaureate degrees.
The college of business confers a degree in accounting or other business
concentration, and the college of science confers a baccalaureate degree in
archaeology of other science. They are two different colleges and two
different baccalaureate degrees. The only thing they may have in common is
the credit acknowledged for the coursework they have in common for the first
two years of coursework (mathematics, physics, chemistry, languages, arts,
etc.) they would naturally have in common for the natural sciences and
social sciences and arts.
>> Use the undergraduate degree in international accounting for a possible
>> future MBA and the more immediate job market for people uniquely
>> qualified to perform the accounting tasks related to private, commercial,
>> and governmental research grants and related fund accounting for
>> scientific research projects.
>
> In England, this is a Chartered Accountant. An MBA is a different field.
> Both are totally unrelated to history, ancient or otherwise.
>
>
Clearly, you know little about your own British institutions and far less
about the comparable American institutions. My wife works with a licensed
British professional who holds an engineering license, MBA, and humanities
degree. He is hardly unqie at all. You need to learn more about
international grant funding and the resumes of the people responsible for
those grant funding programs.
>> Use the undergraduate degree, early student fieldwork in archaeology
>> and/or paleontology to gain preferential qualification in the the
>> management and administration of field research projects and conservation
>> of archaeological and historical artifacts. Use experience in the
>> management and administration of field research projects to establish
>> relationships and a reputation with the private and governmental
>> decisionmakers responsible for funding grants benefiting research,
>> collections, and museums. Use the postgraduate degrees as needed to
>> emphasize desired qualifications in archaeology, paleontology, business
>> and/or governmental administration, and history. The specialized
>> experience gained in discovering, conserving, and interpreting artifacts
>> can later be used to establish special qualifications as an historian
>> with respect to interpreting the historical events that produced those
>> artifacts.
>
> This is all achieved under the umbrella of particular universities,
> depending on the university's area of research and speciality.
>
>
Having performed contract services for a world famous anthropological
research foundation, I happen to know you are embarrasingly mistaken.
>>
>> Degrees in history have little employment value by themselves;
>
> No degree has employment value by itself. Its value is in demonstrating
> the abilities necessary to attain a degree, a certain level of
> intellectual analysis and command of the written language.
>
PhD, BS Piled Higher and Deeper...the worst sort of social snobbery. Even a
PhD is worthless without funding from those dirty old capitalists who
patronize the pretentious snobs with their Pretty high Dementias of their
exalted socil status.
Renia
>
> Sorry Renia, but you've got it all very muddled up indeed. Although I was
> being very specific with regard to a description appropriate for the
> American context and not a British context,
Sheila's daughter is Canadian and wants to go to England to study.
Hence, the American context is irrelevant.
Renia
>>
>
>
> PhD, BS Piled Higher and Deeper...the worst sort of social snobbery. Even a
> PhD is worthless without funding from those dirty old capitalists who
> patronize the pretentious snobs with their Pretty high Dementias of their
> exalted socil status.
To attain a PhD is the worst sort of social snobbery? Perhaps in the USA
but not in Europe. You might be a bit closer if you said intellectual
snobbery. Post-graduate research is notoriously badly paid in Europe and
the attainment of a PhD is not an inexpensive business for the student.
A PhD is rarely attained for financial reward but is a more asthetic
thing in the hope of making the Big Discovery, regardless of discipline.
Renia
I made no comparison whatsoever, direct or indirect, to a Chartered
> Accountant. If I had wanted to suggest a Chartered Accountant, I would have
> referred to the American equivalent, the Certified Public Accountant (CPA),
> and I'm not talking about a Certified Practicing Accountant (CPA) found in
> some nations. Earning a CPA license also requires postgraduate experience in
> a CPA firm and the passing of the CPA exams. I suggested something entirely
> different.
OK
Frances Kemmish
Museum curator jobs are relatively few, and very competitive. Some - at
the most important scholarly institutions - are held by PhDs in the
specialties of the departments. Others are more general, and are more
involved in the administration of the museum. There are postgraduate
certificate programmes in museum management etc in various institutions.
Here is an example:
http://www.wright.edu/cola/Dept/hst/pubhst/maprogram/museum.html
For the time being, perhaps you could encourage her to volunteer at a
local museum, to gain some experience and insight into what actually
goes on in museums, and to make some useful contacts for the future.
Good luck. My daughter is graduating this year from college, with a BA
in International Relations, and going on to a job in international
trade. At 16, she was still expecting to pursue a career as a dancer.
Fran
Renia
>
> It must be presumed anyone with ambitions towards achieving greater
> responsibilities and commensurate financial rewards will ultimately want to
> manage projects, institutions, and/or organizations requiring equally
> advanced experience and capabilities in academia, funding, and management.
But did Sheila's daughter mention funding and management? She wants to
do ancient history and become a museum curator.
Renia
> Now you are being quite humurous, "someone who wanted to work in a
> high-level job in a world-class museum...." The salary for an assistant
> curator is only a very very paltry 16,000 for permanent full time work. The
> "Required Skills" includes "postgraduate Museums qualifications." This
> creates the impression that the candidate must be sufficiently independently
> wealthy to afford their own support while they hold the job,
Indeed. This is how it is in Britain today. There are no university
grants now, and life is expensive for the student. As to academic work,
it is notoriously badly paid. But not everyone is interested in the
big-money career.
> not unlike the
> historical purchased commissions of Britain's military and naval officers of
> the 19th Century. I must presume that most Canadians would ultimately have
> greater ambitions than that in their career plans, and having dual
> qualifications in an academic field and the financial management skills
> needed to support such academic activities will always be an advantage in
> any academic field of endeavor.
Why are you pushing financial management skills when this has not been
mentioned? Perhaps Sheila's daughter has no interest in financial
management or numbers. You are not giving Sheila advice on how to pursue
academic studies in Canada and the UK. You are giving totally different
suggestions as to what career path you think she should follow. She
possibly has a careers adviser in her school.
>
> Uncanny, isn't it, how so many archaeologists from the natural sciences have
> written so much of the primary histories used by historians from the social
> sciences to write secondary histories?
Cite please.
>
> Contrary to your implications, our colleges do not confer degrees outside
> their disciplines either. That is why I described two baccalaureate degrees.
Europe's baccalaureates are not degrees, but the pre-requisite exams in
order to study for a degree. Unless you are describing to bachelor's
degrees? In which case, this could take for ever. My cousin is doing her
PhD in Florence having already studied for 3 or 4 degrees. (I've lost
count.) She is 34 and has never worked.
Renia
>>
>>In England, this is a Chartered Accountant. An MBA is a different field.
>>Both are totally unrelated to history, ancient or otherwise.
>>
>>
>
>
> Clearly, you know little about your own British institutions and far less
> about the comparable American institutions. My wife works with a licensed
> British professional who holds an engineering license, MBA, and humanities
> degree. He is hardly unqie at all. You need to learn more about
> international grant funding and the resumes of the people responsible for
> those grant funding programs.
The above degrees are all attainable by one person but over a period of
several years through different institutions, whether funded by grant or
not. Grants are not available in the UK now.
Renia
>
>
>>> Use the undergraduate degree, early student fieldwork in archaeology
>>>and/or paleontology to gain preferential qualification in the the
>>>management and administration of field research projects and conservation
>>>of archaeological and historical artifacts. Use experience in the
>>>management and administration of field research projects to establish
>>>relationships and a reputation with the private and governmental
>>>decisionmakers responsible for funding grants benefiting research,
>>>collections, and museums. Use the postgraduate degrees as needed to
>>>emphasize desired qualifications in archaeology, paleontology, business
>>>and/or governmental administration, and history. The specialized
>>>experience gained in discovering, conserving, and interpreting artifacts
>>>can later be used to establish special qualifications as an historian
>>>with respect to interpreting the historical events that produced those
>>>artifacts.
>>
>>This is all achieved under the umbrella of particular universities,
>>depending on the university's area of research and speciality.
>>
>>
>
>
> Having performed contract services for a world famous anthropological
> research foundation, I happen to know you are embarrasingly mistaken.
Embarrassingly mistaken in what?
Universities and institutions have their own specialist areas. They
acquire funding from government grants, private individuals, legacies.
Sometimes those funds are given for specific research purposes which
means only academics whose research is in the same field as the
institution will be employed by them. Someone working intimately on
liver cells, for example, does not have the necessary knowledge to work
on stomach cells, in particular areas of research. (I have a friend
doing just this. His science is so specialised, there are very, very few
places in the world where he could work.) The same applies to history.
You don't use the "specialised experience gained in discovering,
conserving and interpreting artefacts [in order] to establish special
qualifications as an historian." It is the other way round. Your degree
teaches you these things, your degree gives you the practical experience
you need in order to do these things. The history degree gives you the
opportunity for the hands-on interpretation. If you do it well, you are
awarded your degree.
William Black
Getting employment in the UK national museum service is notoriously
difficult.
The academic staff of the national collections in the UK are Civil Servants
and competition for posts is fierce.
However, here are some tips...
1. Get an area of specialisation and publish something. This is very very
important, the sooner this is done the better. There are any number of
specialist academic publications that will publish something. Don't be too
controversial as you may offend a potential interview board member.
2. Offer to work for the institution of your choice for free as a
volunteer. When you do apply for a job they will know you and if they like
you then you're in. Any work experience at a national institution will help
in any museum application in the UK.
3. Take the 'taught' master's degree in museum keeping. As far as I'm aware
the only people hired for many years have been either people who have taken
it or the outstandingly academically brilliant. There's a list of places
here:
http://www.city.ac.uk/ictop/courses.html
No grants or scholarships are ever available so it'll cost about £6,000 a
year fees plus her keep...
If she's very brilliant (and I do mean VERY) the institution will pay her
fees to go on the course via distance learning...
Maybe...
4. Be aware that the pay scale given to people working in the UK national
collections isn't actually enough to live comfortably on and that she will
be expected to either write books (that they'll help her to publish) or work
one or two half days a week at one of the larger auction houses as a tame
expert.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
John Kane
Stay away from the Clark Hall pub (nasty plumbers) and the HUB.
Something that she might be interested in are student summer digs. I
am sure there are lots around. An example for Mayan enthusiasts is at
http://www.trentu.ca/academic/anthro/Belize/Belize1.html.
Peter Jason
"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in
message news:f1n90l$bbk$3...@mouse.otenet.gr...
Does any 16yo know what they want? Best to
move in that general direction & keep all
options open.
Renia
My brother knew what he wanted to do when he was 11 years old. He is
VERY successful at it.
Andrew Chaplin
news:yvv%h.163257$DE1.68950@pd7urf2no...
> Our daughter (almost 16) has finally decided on her life path. (or at least
She is aiming too low. If she is fit why is she not angling to get into RMC?
All that academic crap can be done once she's decrepit. Her youth should be
spent in either the combat arms or as [ugh] aircrew. If she passes on that she
will never realise her greatest potential.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Paul J Gans
A discovery on which the "dirty old capitalists" made their
piles of money.
As a trivial example, most of the first computers were built
in universities.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>D. Patterson wrote:
>> Now you are being quite humurous, "someone who wanted to work in a
>> high-level job in a world-class museum...." The salary for an assistant
>> curator is only a very very paltry 16,000 for permanent full time work. The
>> "Required Skills" includes "postgraduate Museums qualifications." This
>> creates the impression that the candidate must be sufficiently independently
>> wealthy to afford their own support while they hold the job,
>Indeed. This is how it is in Britain today. There are no university
>grants now, and life is expensive for the student. As to academic work,
>it is notoriously badly paid. But not everyone is interested in the
>big-money career.
You are quite right, even though many in major universities
live quite well.
It is very hard for the greed-oriented to understand that there
are other ways to live.
Peter Jason
"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in
message news:f1o82e$ohv$1...@mouse.otenet.gr...
So did I, but a few side steps were
necessary. I can't say I was all that
successful with people (about which Sartre
had something to say), and I fear this held
me back a little.
Administrators & managers need an innate
talent - and plenty of it.
William Black
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:f1on0q$a5g$1...@reader2.panix.com...
Well no...
The first computer was built by the British General Post Office at their
research station at Dollis Hill.
The following machines in the COLOSSUS series were built at the British
Tabulating Machine Company (Later International Computers Limited) Factory
in Letchworth.
So the first half dozen or so weren't built in universities.