2nd try: Cathedral Choir Screens (?)
Robert Terwilliger
Is this newsgroup for the blathering dorks, or are there any answers
to be had here?
Repost =====
What was the purpose of the choir screen in a medieval cathedral? It
seems to me it would just block the view of the altar to anybody in
the nave. Was this deliberate?
As an associated question, what levels of society had access to what
parts of a cathedral - during services and not?
Bob Terwilliger
Email: bo...@shadow.net
Web Site: http://www.shadow.net/~bobt
To send me mail,
Remove the "z"
This is not spam,
It's poetry!
Laura Blanchard
Robert Terwilliger wrote:
> Is this newsgroup for the blathering dorks, or are there any answers
> to be had here?
Well, we like to spend the week before Holy Week being blathering dorks
so that we have plenty to reform from come Passion Sunday (which I in my
ignorance still call Palm Sunday). On the other hand, we're occasionally
capable of sustaining a topic other than "historiography as a blood
sport."
But to be honest, I don't have a clue why they put up those choir
screens. However, I hope to rummage around and find something out. I'll
probably be looking at England, since my outlook is unabashedly insular.
Your question immediately sparked a question of my own, though: were
there screens only in cathedrals, or did they show up in other places?
Sorry we overlooked you in our eagerness to comment on who goes the most
ballistic around here.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha/shm/
D. Spencer Hines
It's neither spam nor poetry.
It's just Sacrilegious and A-Historical Garbage --- perhaps by a lapsed
Roman Catholic who has lost her bearings and should be ashamed of
herself --- the Gotham Groupie.
The author of this post has no sense of Historical Empathy and understanding
for a people of the past and their times. She imposes her own attitudinal
reading of Religion and History on the facts and faces of the past.
Further, she plays her shtick to the groundlings in hopes of engendering a
laugh, a wink and a grope.
Yes, another mediocre academic plying her trade in the Entertainment arena.
Trying to compete with MTV rather than the great Historians of the past ---
or even of today.
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da
gloriam, propter misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V,
[1387-1422] King of England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and
chaplains --- after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every
able-bodied man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV,
Verse I]
Kathryn M. Talarico wrote in message <6g9c4h$7mj$1...@news.nyu.edu>...
>Robert Terwilliger (bo...@shadow.net) wrote:
>: Is this newsgroup for the blathering dorks, or are there any answers
>: to be had here?
> I can give it a try!
>
>: Repost =====
>
>: What was the purpose of the choir screen in a medieval cathedral? It
>: seems to me it would just block the view of the altar to anybody in
>: the nave. Was this deliberate?
>
>Yes, the choir screen, until the late 12th, early 13th centuries was,
>indeed, used to block the view of the priest. The "mystery" of the
>mass--and more especially the consecration of the Host, was out of
>the gaze of the people attending mass. Since the consecration was the
>focal point of the mass for the priest, it was (and this was a rather
>complicated and long theological debate), not deemed proper for ordinary
>parishoners to witness. This changed somewhat with the Fourth Lateran
>Council (in 1215) when it finally became more common practice for the
>ordinary parishoners to receive communion. Until then, communion was
>not a normal "every Sunday" or even every holy day occurrence.
>
>At this time, and not incidentally, there began to be a great interest
>in the Eucharist and in Eucharistic feast (it is no surprise either
>that this is the same time period when stories of the Holy Grail begin
>to appear: to penetrate the mystery--of the grail or the Eucharist).
>The popular interest in the Eucharist spread, as did stories of
>Eucharistic miracles and we also witness the beginning of the celebration
>of the feast of Corpus Christi (literally, the monstrance of the
>Eucharist). It was at this time that the rood screens came down and
>people streamed into churches to witness the elevation of the Host. It
>should be noted that they didn't necessarily stay for the whole mass, nor
>did they remain in the church *after* the elevation!
>
>: As an associated question, what levels of society had access to what
>: parts of a cathedral - during services and not?
>
> Much to the dismay of Church authorities, anyone and everyone
>had access to most all parts of the church during "off hours"--although
>they were *supposed* to steer clear of the altar. It must be remembered
>that, unlike American (or modern) churches with fixed pews, there were
>few, if any, chairs in cathedrals and there was lots of activity in
>the church at time when the mass was not being celebrated. Theater was
>performed there (until it became too rowdy and had to be performed
>outdoors); baptisms and marriages, certainly; but there were also
>tradespeople inside the churches as well.
>
>In her novels about Catherine Levendeur, Sharan Newman paints a
>very lively and historically accurate picture of various meetings
>taking place in churches during these "off hours." Indeed, there
>were even prostitutes in the churches at this time... These
>churches were not the quiet, sedate sanctuaries we think of today!
>
>For more information, and eminently readable scholarly approaches
>to these questions, see Gary Macy's _The Theologies of the
>Eucharist in the Early Scholastic Period_ (Oxford; 1984) and
>Fr. Joseph Jungmann, _The Mass of the Roman Rite_ (1950; rpt. 1986).
>Fr. Jungmann has some fascinating discussions of the lawsuits brought
>by parishoners who wanted to get "good seats" in church in order to
>see the elevation of the Host more clearly. It was reported that in
>one church in England, in the late 13th or early 14th centuries,
>parishoners were heard to yell at the priest at the moment of
>elevation: "Hold up, Sir John. Heave it a little higher!"
>
>Best regards,
>Kathryn Talarico
>: Bob Terwilliger
Laura Blanchard
Kathryn M. Talarico wrote:
[snip of really good posting on rood screens]
This wasn't a topic for which I had much in the way of reference at
home, but I did manage to answer my own question. Rood screens, altar
screens, choir screens were to be found in churches other than
cathedrals. There is a magnificent fifteenth century choir screen in the
Cathedral and Parish Church of St. Mary, St. George and St.Denys in
Manchester. Although this church was built in the fifteenth century, it
was built as a collegiate church and did not achieve cathedral status
until 1847 -- during a period that new dioceses were carved out of the
old ecclesiastical map of England.
Curt Emanuel
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>
> It's neither spam nor poetry.
It's neither relevant nor contributory.
>
> It's just Sacrilegious and A-Historical Garbage --- perhaps by a lapsed
> Roman Catholic who has lost her bearings and should be ashamed of
> herself --- the Gotham Groupie.
It's just another example of the effusive belching of voluminous
nonsensical ramblings by an individual with neither the intelligence nor
the character to actually comment on the issue.
>
> The author of this post has no sense of Historical Empathy and understanding
> for a people of the past and their times. She imposes her own attitudinal
> reading of Religion and History on the facts and faces of the past.
The author of this post is a child. He specializes in the third-grade
technique of name-calling, enhanced by the occasional lie and continuous
duplicity.
>
> Further, she plays her shtick to the groundlings in hopes of engendering a
> laugh, a wink and a grope.
Further, he is so in love with his disordered ravings that he
continually subjects the readers of this ng to the excrescence of his
badly unbalanced mind.
>
> Yes, another mediocre academic plying her trade in the Entertainment arena.
> Trying to compete with MTV rather than the great Historians of the past ---
> or even of today.
Yet another post from the Random Acronym Generator (RAG). Illogical,
consisting of gross mischaracterizations and personal attacks, and
without any content whatsoever.
Another one of Spencer Hines' Instructive Tales.
I'll leave that acronym for the group.
Curt Emanuel
Kathryn M. Talarico
Paul J. Gans
I have forwarded the post below to ab...@att.net. Given
that Professor Talarico is one of the last remaining
medievalists in this newsgroup and given the language
used against her, suspect that I am not alone in my
actions. Mr. Hines's post is full of falsehoods
and abuse. And, though this is no surprise, shows
an appaling lack of knowledge of medieval religious
practice.
------ Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
D. Spencer Hines (shi...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>It's neither spam nor poetry.
>It's just Sacrilegious and A-Historical Garbage --- perhaps by a lapsed
>Roman Catholic who has lost her bearings and should be ashamed of
>herself --- the Gotham Groupie.
>The author of this post has no sense of Historical Empathy and understanding
>for a people of the past and their times. She imposes her own attitudinal
>reading of Religion and History on the facts and faces of the past.
>Further, she plays her shtick to the groundlings in hopes of engendering a
>laugh, a wink and a grope.
>Yes, another mediocre academic plying her trade in the Entertainment arena.
>Trying to compete with MTV rather than the great Historians of the past ---
>or even of today.
>D. Spencer Hines
>--
>D. Spencer Hines --- "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da
>gloriam, propter misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V,
>[1387-1422] King of England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and
>chaplains --- after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every
>able-bodied man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV,
>Verse I]
>Kathryn M. Talarico wrote in message <6g9c4h$7mj$1...@news.nyu.edu>...
Brian M. Scott
On 6 Apr 1998 01:45:53 GMT, tala...@scholar.chem.nyu.edu (Kathryn M.
Talarico) wrote:
> It must be remembered
>that, unlike American (or modern) churches with fixed pews, there were
>few, if any, chairs in cathedrals and there was lots of activity in
>the church at time when the mass was not being celebrated. Theater was
>performed there (until it became too rowdy and had to be performed
>outdoors); baptisms and marriages, certainly; but there were also
>tradespeople inside the churches as well.
I imagine that in most places the church offered the largest enclosed
space available, yes?
Brian M. Scott
David
Brian M. Scott wrote in message <3528725d...@news.csuohio.edu>...
And one that would not burn down as easily as the rest of town, and that
could be defended against attackers.
Charlie Anderson
One other use was as a POW camp. Scots prisoners were locked up in
Durham Cathedral following the Battle of Dunbar in 1650/1 (I forget)
They tore down and burnt every stick of wood inside the cathedral, the
carved wooden choir stalls for instance, to keep themselves warm. The
only wooden item saved was the large clock, on which was carved a
thistle.
Cromwell didn't care.
Charlie Anderson, Vancouver.
Kathryn M. Talarico
Since my documented attempt to answer the legitimate question about choir
screens met with the usual babble and derision so common in the posts
of a D. Spencer Hines, I have chosen to forward his comments to
ab...@att.net. I shall decide at a later date if further action
is warranted.
I am very sorry for the group as a whole. It's going down the tubes
quite rapidly and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot anyone can do
except to allow it to give forth its last paroxysms.
Kathryn Talarico
Henry Troup
Kathryn M. Talarico wrote:
>
...
> : What was the purpose of the choir screen in a medieval cathedral? It
> : seems to me it would just block the view of the altar to anybody in
> : the nave. Was this deliberate?
>
> Yes, the choir screen, until the late 12th, early 13th centuries was,
It's also often called a "rood screen". While more access to the
eucharist may have happened as early as the 13th C, the screens mostly
stayed in place until the Reformation. One of the Oxford or Cambridge
(sorry, refs at home) college churches has a particularly noted Inigo
Jones rood screen.
--
Henry Troup h...@nortel.ca Nortel Public Carrier Networks
My personal position or opinion should not be taken for
the official position or opinion of Nortel
Velovich
>
>
>I have forwarded the post below to ab...@att.net. Given
>that Professor Talarico is one of the last remaining
>medievalists in this newsgroup and given the language
>used against her, suspect that I am not alone in my
>actions. Mr. Hines's post is full of falsehoods
>and abuse. And, though this is no surprise, shows
>an appaling lack of knowledge of medieval religious
>practice.
>
> ------ Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Paul, Since the 1st, I've sent 14 of his posts to Abuse@wolrdnet. I get
confirmations, and I think the way his posts have changed over the last week is
an idicator of the effect. He's getting notices ffrom them by now, and he
doesn't like it. I will keep this up till he shuts up of gets the hint and
becomes a civil adult, instead of a por little kid with his hand caught in the
cookie jar.
Velovich
"Who IS Keyser Souze?"
NOTICE TO BULK E-MAILERS: Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter
II, 227, and all nonsolicited commercial e-mail sent to this address is subject
to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US.
John
I recall seeing a special(PBS I think) that the choir was screened off
from view so that the congregation would be attentive with their ears and
not their eyes. I do not know if this is the screen you are asking about,
but it seems to fit. The show did mention another reason: To create the
image of heavenly voices singing their praises. The narrator did not
elaborate on this statement, so I do not know exactly who was trying to
create what. ( I think the show was the documentary on Religion in the
late 80's or early 90's)
John
Laura Blanchard <lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in article
<3527EC...@pobox.upenn.edu>...
> Robert Terwilliger wrote:
>
> > Is this newsgroup for the blathering dorks, or are there any answers
> > to be had here?
>
> Well, we like to spend the week before Holy Week being blathering dorks
> so that we have plenty to reform from come Passion Sunday (which I in
my
> ignorance still call Palm Sunday). On the other hand, we're
occasionally
> capable of sustaining a topic other than "historiography as a blood
> sport."
>
> But to be honest, I don't have a clue why they put up those choir
> screens. However, I hope to rummage around and find something out. I'll
> probably be looking at England, since my outlook is unabashedly
insular.
> Your question immediately sparked a question of my own, though: were
> there screens only in cathedrals, or did they show up in other places?
>
> Sorry we overlooked you in our eagerness to comment on who goes the
most
> ballistic around here.
>
Paul J. Gans
Brian M. Scott (sc...@math.csuohio.edu) wrote:
>On 6 Apr 1998 01:45:53 GMT, tala...@scholar.chem.nyu.edu (Kathryn M.
>Talarico) wrote:
>> It must be remembered
>>that, unlike American (or modern) churches with fixed pews, there were
>>few, if any, chairs in cathedrals and there was lots of activity in
>>the church at time when the mass was not being celebrated. Theater was
>>performed there (until it became too rowdy and had to be performed
>>outdoors); baptisms and marriages, certainly; but there were also
>>tradespeople inside the churches as well.
>I imagine that in most places the church offered the largest enclosed
>space available, yes?
Yes. Churches were often used as general meeting places.
I think this remained true until guildhalls became widespread.
In a very real sense the church was the center of medieval
life.
----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
David
John wrote in message <01bd60fd$7b397f40$186c1e26@default>...
>I recall seeing a special(PBS I think) that the choir was screened off
>from view so that the congregation would be attentive with their ears and
>not their eyes. I do not know if this is the screen you are asking about,
>but it seems to fit. The show did mention another reason: To create the
>image of heavenly voices singing their praises. The narrator did not
>elaborate on this statement, so I do not know exactly who was trying to
>create what. ( I think the show was the documentary on Religion in the
>late 80's or early 90's)
>
There was an Eastern Orthodox gentleman around here a few days ago - now
since the Orthodox still do close off their sanctuaries and do the
consecration out of sight, maybe he could tell us what they say?
I don't think the Orthodox put their choirs behind the iconostasis, though -
because of the squarer plan, there isn't as much room there as in a Western
sanctuary. Is that right, anyone who knows?
David Pugh
Paul J. Gans
Henry Troup (h...@nortel.ca) wrote:
>Kathryn M. Talarico wrote:
>>
>...
>> : What was the purpose of the choir screen in a medieval cathedral? It
>> : seems to me it would just block the view of the altar to anybody in
>> : the nave. Was this deliberate?
>>
>> Yes, the choir screen, until the late 12th, early 13th centuries was,
>> indeed, used to block the view of the priest. ...
>It's also often called a "rood screen". While more access to the
>eucharist may have happened as early as the 13th C, the screens mostly
>stayed in place until the Reformation. One of the Oxford or Cambridge
>(sorry, refs at home) college churches has a particularly noted Inigo
>Jones rood screen.
I'm curious as to the practice in the Eastern Orthodox
Church. Was the view of the elevation of the host
blocked there as well?
Leslie Sowell
Robert Terwilliger wrote:
> Is this newsgroup for the blathering dorks, or are there any answers
> to be had here?
>
> Repost =====
>
> What was the purpose of the choir screen in a medieval cathedral? It
> seems to me it would just block the view of the altar to anybody in
> the nave. Was this deliberate?
>
> As an associated question, what levels of society had access to what
> parts of a cathedral - during services and not?
>
> Bob Terwilliger
>
> Email: bo...@shadow.net
> Web Site: http://www.shadow.net/~bobt
>
> To send me mail,
> Remove the "z"
> This is not spam,
> It's poetry!
There's a book titled _Screens and Galleries in English Churches_ by
Francis Bond, published by Oxford University Press that may help you.
Efithimia T. Leonardi
Paul J. Gans (ga...@panix.com) wrote:
>
> I'm curious as to the practice in the Eastern Orthodox
> Church. Was the view of the elevation of the host
> blocked there as well?
>
> ----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
>
He stands behind the iconostasis, which runs the length of the altar
and sometimes a bit longer. Usually, the altar is visible through
a gate (orea pyle = beautiful gate), which is in the middle of
the iconostasis. During the liturgy, the gate closes and the priest
intones "Holy things onto the holy people of God". Here is where
the modern Church differs....in the old days, the service preceding
the consecration was called the Liturgy of the Catechumens....or
those studying to convert. The catechumens (and anyone else not
an Orthodox Christian) had to leave. This is no longer
acted upon, though the recitation by the priest is still said.
The gifts are then elevated while the congregation kneels.
Incidentally, one can see through the gate, but as I mentioned
earlier, the priest's back is turned.
I might further add that Orthodox Christians may only receive communion
every Sunday only if they have observed EVERY fast holiday. The
fast involves abstention from anything not grown from the ground,
therefore no animal products are consumed. Furthermore, an
Orthdox Christian wishing to receive every Sunday must fast in
the above-mentioned manner every Wednesday and Friday, regardless
of whether there is a major fast holiday or not. There are a few
exceptions, most primarily the week immediately following Easter.
Most people do not receive communion every Sunday for the above-
mentioned reasons, and this is not considered a grave sin.
There are several days when one is required to do so...
August 15th, Easter, Christmas, The first Sunday of Lent.
Most people also receive more often than this....one has to
adhere to the fas for at least a week and be in a state of good grace..
that is left up to the parishoner to decide if they are or are not.
Hope this helped
Efthimia Kokotos Leonardi
a15...@micronet.fr
The finest surviving example of a rood screen or jubé in France is in the
Cathedral of Alibi.
Herewith quote from: Whitney S. Stoddard, Art & Architecture in Medieval
France, Icon Editions, Harper and Row, 1972, pages 302- 304.
"The coro or enclosure, which occupies the six eastern bays, separated the
clergy from the laity. Most of the coros in cathedrals were destroyed in the
eighteenth or nineteenth centuries. Although the coro, containing choir stalls
and altar with its elaborate rood screen or jubé across the entire nave (fig.
355), was damaged in 1794 and seventy statues destroyed, it remains the
best-preserved in France. Constructed and ornamented around 1500, it is
Flamboyant in style. The jubé has five openings, the side openings allowing
circulation around the exterior of the coro itself. The three central doorways
give in to a narthex with elaborate pendant vaults and two circular stairways
climbing to the balcony. Every surface of jubé and choir screen is animated by
curving tracery and statues in niches. The exquisiteness of jubé and coro
serves successfully as a countertheme to the starkness of the nave."
The coro, of which the jubé was the side facing the masses in the nave,
enclosed the alter and the choir stalls and formed a "church within a church".
The coro at Albi was constructed by Louis d’Amboise, bishop of Albi. He was a
brother of Cardinal Georges d’Amboise, archbishop of Rouen, and chief minister
of King Louis XII of France. Georges tried to get elected pope with the help
of the French army and Cesare Borgia (the son of the dead Pope Alexander VI)
in September 1503. Louis died on 1 July 1503 and was replaced as bishop by
his nephew Louis II.
The only surviving rood-screen in Paris is in the beautiful church of Saint
Etienne-du-Mont (which contains the tomb of Sainte Genevieve, the patron saint
of Paris). Here also, spiral stairways lead to a balcony on top of the screen
from which the Epistles and Gospels were read, and sermons delivered.
Matt Harley
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
D. Spencer Hines
What a charming, well-written and thoughtful post --- with no hidden
religious, political or social agenda.
It makes no attempt to "play to the groundlings" or supposed "typical
college students" of low intelligence and short attention span, in an MTV or
sitcom sense, either.
Why it even has hard core historical facts --- such as names and dates and
French equivalents in it.
Sacre bleu!
Thank you.
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da
gloriam, propter misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V,
[1387-1422] King of England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and
chaplains --- after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every
able-bodied man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV,
Verse I]
a15...@micronet.fr wrote in message <6gbng2$hkc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Mrovka
I thought the choir screens were there to insulate the altar from the
common people...you know, about when the Church decreed that services had
to be in Latin and not in the vernacular.
Of course, this is fuzzy memory at best. since my mind is still
thesis-bound. Update - we have moved from the pre-1066 Normans to Richard
III and Charles II. hehhehheh. only in a Suzi-Thesis.
suzi
-maybe someday i'll know what i want from my life-
-but then i'll be dead-
-viva la vestibule!-
Paul J. Gans
I think there is some confusion here. Kathy's response
was about the Roman church. I asked about the Orthodox
church, which Efy answered. I don't believe that Orthodox
services were ever in anything but Greek.
Shadow-Eyes
Paul J. Gans wrote:
>
[Mrovka <cut> for Propriety]
> >-maybe someday i'll know what i want from my life-
> >-but then i'll be dead-
> >-viva la vestibule!-
>
> I think there is some confusion here. Kathy's response
> was about the Roman church. I asked about the Orthodox
> church, which Efy answered. I don't believe that Orthodox
> services were ever in anything but Greek.
That's not complete true Paul. It's also a matter of geography. The
Bulgarians in the 9th century won the righ to hold the services in their
language, along with an autocephalous Patriarch. The Serbs did to
though at a later date. I'm sure they had it after 1204. JOhn III
Vatatzes and his Patriarch Germanus II in the 1240's did a lot of
reshuffling with the traditionial powers of the Orthdox church. A lot of
which was later gainsed back by successive Emperors. Not all but a lot.
The Gergians too, while recognized as Orthodox by Cnople and part of
the orthodox world, had their own rite, which inlucdes hearing orthodox
liturgy in Georgian.
I'm not exactly sure when this came about for Georigia. I'll have to
check my books.
>
> ----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
-- John Jimenez
-----------[The mother of all 'lines'<g>]------------------------
You're gettin' ready to blow? I'm a mushroom-cloud-layin'
M***********, M***********! Every time my fingers touch brain I'm
"SUPERFLY T.N.T," I'm the "GUNS OF NAVARONE" ready to explode. In fact,
what the f*** am I doin' in the back? You're the M********** should be
on brain detail! We're tradin'. I'm washin' windows and you're pickin'
up this n****** skull.
Jules_(Samuel L. Jackson's character) from Pulp Fiction
Bryan J. Maloney
Paul J. Gans wrote:
> I think there is some confusion here. Kathy's response
> was about the Roman church. I asked about the Orthodox
> church, which Efy answered. I don't believe that Orthodox
> services were ever in anything but Greek.
Let us forego the modern era, which sees the Orthodox Liturgy sung in
Greek, English, French, German, Japanese, Russian, Slavonic, and an
innumerable plethora of other languages. Before the schism of Rome,
Rome was an Orthodox see, which means that Orthodox Liturgy was done in
Latin. Before the 10th century the Liturgy was done in Slavonic under
the missionary efforts of Cyril and Methodius. Even earlier than this,
Orthodox Liturgy was not only done but composed in Syriac and possibly
in languages of India, depending on how one takes the claims of the
groups that claim establishment by St. Mark.
"Orthodox" is not identical with "Greek", and never has been.
Efithimia T. Leonardi
> >I thought the choir screens were there to insulate the altar from the
> >common people...you know, about when the Church decreed that services had
> >to be in Latin and not in the vernacular.
> >Of course, this is fuzzy memory at best. since my mind is still
> >thesis-bound. Update - we have moved from the pre-1066 Normans to Richard
> >III and Charles II. hehhehheh. only in a Suzi-Thesis.
>
> >suzi
> >-but then i'll be dead-
> >-viva la vestibule!-
>
> was about the Roman church. I asked about the Orthodox
> church, which Efy answered. I don't believe that Orthodox
> services were ever in anything but Greek.
>
>
The liturgies were originally said in Greek....the Greek
eventually melded in with the native language..Coptic, for
example, is largely Greek, with a few Arabic characters.
At this time , the liturgies are basically said in
the vernacular, with the exception of the Greek and Coptic
churches. The former uses Byzantine Greek while the latter
still uses a language that is for all intents and purposes, dead.
There are Orthodox services in English said in the US.
As for choir screens....the Orthodox church has,
as a tradition, male cantors. The cantors stand
immediately outside the iconostasis. Choirs do exist,
but as they are usually mixed, they are never placed behind
the iconostasis. This is because most women are not allowed into the altar
in the Orthodox church.
Efthimia Kokotos Leonardi
David
Bryan J. Maloney wrote in message <352B8C...@cornell.edu>...
(...)
Even earlier than this,
>Orthodox Liturgy was not only done but composed in Syriac and possibly
>in languages of India, depending on how one takes the claims of the
>groups that claim establishment by St. Mark.
>
Shouldn't that be St. Thomas?
Efithimia T. Leonardi
Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
> Paul J. Gans wrote:
>
> > I think there is some confusion here. Kathy's response
> > was about the Roman church. I asked about the Orthodox
> > church, which Efy answered. I don't believe that Orthodox
> > services were ever in anything but Greek.
>
> Greek, English, French, German, Japanese, Russian, Slavonic, and an
> innumerable plethora of other languages. Before the schism of Rome,
> Rome was an Orthodox see, which means that Orthodox Liturgy was done in
> Latin. Before the 10th century the Liturgy was done in Slavonic under
> Orthodox Liturgy was not only done but composed in Syriac and possibly
> in languages of India, depending on how one takes the claims of the
> groups that claim establishment by St. Mark.
>
I was referring to the church following the schism with Rome..
Perhaps I didn't make my position clear...but in referring to the Church
as Orthodox, I assumed one understood it was following the schism.
Several texts gathered from various monstaries, including those
of Mount Sinai, MOunt Athos and Alexandria show the church
calendar and mass to be written in Greek. That doesn't mean that
Greek was the exclusive language, but its use was pretty widespread
in the church in the Byzantine Empire.
Before then, I believe (and I might be wrong) that the whole
establishment was referred to as the Catholic church..in the
Nicean creed one sees the reference to the "holy, Catholic and
apostolic Church".
Regards
Efthimia Kokotos Leonardi
Paul J. Gans
>> >-maybe someday i'll know what i want from my life-
>> >-but then i'll be dead-
>> >-viva la vestibule!-
>>
>> was about the Roman church. I asked about the Orthodox
>> church, which Efy answered. I don't believe that Orthodox
>> services were ever in anything but Greek.
> That's not complete true Paul. It's also a matter of geography. The
>Bulgarians in the 9th century won the righ to hold the services in their
>language, along with an autocephalous Patriarch. The Serbs did to
>though at a later date. I'm sure they had it after 1204. JOhn III
>Vatatzes and his Patriarch Germanus II in the 1240's did a lot of
>reshuffling with the traditionial powers of the Orthdox church. A lot of
>which was later gainsed back by successive Emperors. Not all but a lot.
> The Gergians too, while recognized as Orthodox by Cnople and part of
>the orthodox world, had their own rite, which inlucdes hearing orthodox
>liturgy in Georgian.
> I'm not exactly sure when this came about for Georigia. I'll have to
>check my books.
>>
>> ----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
>-- John Jimenez
You are quite right. What I should have said was that Latin
was the official language of only one segment of the Church.
Bryan J. Maloney
> >Orthodox Liturgy was not only done but composed in Syriac and possibly
> >in languages of India, depending on how one takes the claims of the
> >groups that claim establishment by St. Mark.
> >
>
Pardon, my mistake. I still sometimes oops up on the fact that Andrew
founded the See of Constantinople, even though he's staring at me every
week from the wall.
Bryan J. Maloney
Efithimia T. Leonardi wrote:
> Several texts gathered from various monstaries, including those
> of Mount Sinai, MOunt Athos and Alexandria show the church
> calendar and mass to be written in Greek. That doesn't mean that
> Greek was the exclusive language, but its use was pretty widespread
> in the church in the Byzantine Empire.
Paul stated that the exclusive language of Orthodoxy was Greek--that was
only the case for a very short time. First there were translations into
Latin, then into Syriac, and even the Slavonic Liturgical and Scriptural
translations were done while the alleged and mis-named "Byzantine
Empire" (which never actually existed) was doing quite nicely for
itself.
>
> Before then, I believe (and I might be wrong) that the whole
> establishment was referred to as the Catholic church..in the
> Nicean creed one sees the reference to the "holy, Catholic and
> apostolic Church".
The term "Orthodoxy" as a classification is older than the 11th century,
as is the term "Orthodox Church". Furthermore, Orthodoxy *is* the
Catholic Church. We are One Church, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The
use of "Orthodox" to mean "Not Roman Catholic" is a non-Orthodox
invention and on a par as the use of "Byzantine".
Michael L. Siemon
In article <6gg2jb$qkn$1...@news.nyu.edu>, eqk...@is2.nyu.edu (Efithimia T.
Leonardi) wrote:
+The liturgies were originally said in Greek....the Greek
+eventually melded in with the native language..Coptic, for
+example, is largely Greek, with a few Arabic characters.
I'm sorry, but I can't let this pass. Coptic has a large admixture
of Greek loan words (so does English :-)). The alphabet is a Greco-
Roman one, with as you say a few extra signs (not Arabic, incidentally,
they derive from the cursive "demotic" script related to hieroglyphics).
The langauge is, however, basically Egyptian -- it is the natural
continuation of the language of the Pharoahs, in much the same way as
Italian is a continuation of Latin. (Italian also has loan words from
other languages. :-)) As you go on to say below, Coptic is very nearly
a dead language -- almost its only use being in the liturgy of the
Coptic Church, where most worshippers speak Arabic as their native
language. There is some nastiness here: Islamic fundies target Coptic
speakers for terrorism, to drive any vestiges of Coptic from public
view.
That is pedantic, to be sure -- your main point is that Orthodox worhsip
*was* largely in the vernacular of the worshippers. The Western Church's
maintenance of Latin (and use of it in lands where not even any descendant
of Latin was spoken) is quite unusual in Christian history -- and Rome
backed down from it finally at Vatican II.
--
Michael L. Siemon m...@panix.com
"Green is the night, green kindled and apparelled.
It is she that walks among astronomers."
-- Wallace Stevens
Paul J. Gans
>> I think there is some confusion here. Kathy's response
>> was about the Roman church. I asked about the Orthodox
>> church, which Efy answered. I don't believe that Orthodox
>> services were ever in anything but Greek.
>Let us forego the modern era, which sees the Orthodox Liturgy sung in
>Greek, English, French, German, Japanese, Russian, Slavonic, and an
>innumerable plethora of other languages. Before the schism of Rome,
>Rome was an Orthodox see, which means that Orthodox Liturgy was done in
>Latin. Before the 10th century the Liturgy was done in Slavonic under
>the missionary efforts of Cyril and Methodius. Even earlier than this,
>Orthodox Liturgy was not only done but composed in Syriac and possibly
>in languages of India, depending on how one takes the claims of the
>groups that claim establishment by St. Mark.
>"Orthodox" is not identical with "Greek", and never has been.
I agree. I've posted my mea culpas.
Efithimia T. Leonardi
>
> > Several texts gathered from various monstaries, including those
> > of Mount Sinai, MOunt Athos and Alexandria show the church
> > calendar and mass to be written in Greek. That doesn't mean that
> > Greek was the exclusive language, but its use was pretty widespread
> > in the church in the Byzantine Empire.
>
> Paul stated that the exclusive language of Orthodoxy was Greek--that was
> only the case for a very short time. First there were translations into
> Latin, then into Syriac, and even the Slavonic Liturgical and Scriptural
> translations were done while the alleged and mis-named "Byzantine
> Empire" (which never actually existed) was doing quite nicely for
> itself.
>
You are right here....when I said widespread, I in no means
meant exclusive. Hmm. Some can of worms I opened up, eh?
> >
> > Before then, I believe (and I might be wrong) that the whole
> > establishment was referred to as the Catholic church..in the
> > Nicean creed one sees the reference to the "holy, Catholic and
> > apostolic Church".
>
> The term "Orthodoxy" as a classification is older than the 11th century,
> as is the term "Orthodox Church". Furthermore, Orthodoxy *is* the
> Catholic Church. We are One Church, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The
> use of "Orthodox" to mean "Not Roman Catholic" is a non-Orthodox
> invention and on a par as the use of "Byzantine".
You raise an interesting point here. Are you referring to the
Orthodox church being the Catholic Church before the schism and
remaining as such afterward? Then what is the Roman Catholic
church? There have been, as you no doubt know, a few attempts
to join the churches again. The one I am most familiar with place
in the late 1950s...and I have Michael's polite, but stubborn,
refusal to reconcile certain differences.
Best
Efthimia Kokotos Leonardi
Efithimia T. Leonardi
Michael L. Siemon (m...@panix.com) wrote:
> In article <6gg2jb$qkn$1...@news.nyu.edu>, eqk...@is2.nyu.edu (Efithimia T.
> Leonardi) wrote:
>
> +The liturgies were originally said in Greek....the Greek
> +eventually melded in with the native language..Coptic, for
> +example, is largely Greek, with a few Arabic characters.
>
> I'm sorry, but I can't let this pass. Coptic has a large admixture
> of Greek loan words (so does English :-)). The alphabet is a Greco-
> Roman one, with as you say a few extra signs (not Arabic, incidentally,
> they derive from the cursive "demotic" script related to hieroglyphics).
> The langauge is, however, basically Egyptian -- it is the natural
> continuation of the language of the Pharoahs, in much the same way as
> Italian is a continuation of Latin. (Italian also has loan words from
> other languages. :-)) As you go on to say below, Coptic is very nearly
> a dead language -- almost its only use being in the liturgy of the
> Coptic Church, where most worshippers speak Arabic as their native
> language. There is some nastiness here: Islamic fundies target Coptic
> speakers for terrorism, to drive any vestiges of Coptic from public
> view.
>
I am learning to be far more careful in what I say here :)
The only Coptic I've ever seen (and managed to read) was in
Coptic Orthodox Liturgy books...and the parish priest nearly fell
on the floor. I was able to do so because the liturgy is almost entirely
Greek. There are one or two words I didn't know...but not many more.
I do not know about the actual day-to-day language of the Copts.
As you mention above, the Coptics are terrorist targets and
haev been so for many years. It is sad, but only the priests know
it now. Perhaps they might start teaching the language
to children in afternoon schools here in the US. But the
urge to assimilate is so great that I doubt it will happen...
> That is pedantic, to be sure -- your main point is that Orthodox worhsip
> *was* largely in the vernacular of the worshippers. The Western Church's
> maintenance of Latin (and use of it in lands where not even any descendant
> of Latin was spoken) is quite unusual in Christian history -- and Rome
> backed down from it finally at Vatican II.
> --
No, it is most interesting. I appreciate any knowledge I can
gain.
Efthimia Kokotos Leonardi
Wayne B. Hewitt
In article <mls-080498...@mls.dialup.access.net>, m...@panix.com
(Michael L. Siemon) wrote:
>Coptic has a large admixture
>of Greek loan words [but the] langauge is, however, basically Egyptian
> -- it is the natural continuation of the language of the Pharoahs,...
Indeed, without a modern knowedge of Coptic, the Rosetta Stone, and
therefore ancient Egyptian could not have been translated.
--
Barbarossa ;^{>
Encinitas, California
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
eqk...@is2.nyu.edu (Efithimia T. Leonardi) writes:
>Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
>> Efithimia T. Leonardi wrote:
>> > Before then, I believe (and I might be wrong) that the whole
>> > establishment was referred to as the Catholic church..in the
>> > Nicean creed one sees the reference to the "holy, Catholic and
>> > apostolic Church".
Or as it is written in Lutheran books:
"holy, catholic and apostolic Church"
(Oh yes, that lower case "c" is very important :P)
[much deletia]
Robert
who has been in Lutheran churches where a strip of paper with "Christian"
typed on it is glued over the "catholic".
Michael L. Siemon
In article <199804100217...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
jazzm...@aol.com (Jazzman797) wrote:
+Our Lutheran pastor explained that "catholic" means ..... the universal
+church...... berefit of *all* denominations, however, I suspect this doesn't
+square with those of the Catholic faith.
Sure it does. All Christians are Catholic -- but some are more Catholic
than others [ob. Orwell]
--
D. Spencer Hines
Vide infra.
Balderdash. The word "catholic" has nothing in the least Orwellian about
it.
Your ignorance is appallingly manifest to all.
Check the clear and unambiguous meaning of "catholic" in any good, standard
English dictionary. The word derives, of course from the Greek
'katholikos' --- universal, general.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da
gloriam, propter misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V,
[1387-1422] King of England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and
chaplains --- after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every
able-bodied man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV,
Verse I]
Michael L. Siemon wrote in message ...
>In article <199804100217...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>jazzm...@aol.com (Jazzman797) wrote:
>
>+Our Lutheran pastor explained that "catholic" means ..... the universal
>+church...... berefit [sic] of *all* denominations, however, I suspect this
Jazzman797
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: 2nd try: Cathedral Choir Screens (?)
>From: mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>Date: Thu, Apr 9, 1998 14:11 EDT
>Message-id: <6gj305$b...@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Robert wrote:
>Or as it is written in Lutheran books:
"holy, catholic and apostolic Church"
(Oh yes, that lower case "c" is very important :P)
Robert
who has been in Lutheran churches where a strip of paper with "Christian"
typed on it is glued over the "catholic".
Our Lutheran pastor explained that "catholic" means ..... the universal
church...... berefit of *all* denominations, however, I suspect this doesn't
square with those of the Catholic faith.
Rowena
Jazzm...@aol.com
Jgissw
>From: whe...@ucsd.edu (Wayne B. Hewitt)
>Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 07:19:35
>Indeed, without a modern knowedge of Coptic, the Rosetta Stone, and
>therefore ancient Egyptian could not have been translated.
Slight digression. Colin Turnbull says that the language of the Ik down
near the lakes is most closely related to Middle Egyptian.
JGW
Abercjohn
In article <6gj305$b...@corn.cso.niu.edu>, mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
writes:
>Date: 9 Apr 1998 18:11:17 GMT
>
>eqk...@is2.nyu.edu (Efithimia T. Leonardi) writes:
>>Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
>>> Efithimia T. Leonardi wrote:
>
>>> > Before then, I believe (and I might be wrong) that the whole
>>> > establishment was referred to as the Catholic church..in the
>>> > Nicean creed one sees the reference to the "holy, Catholic and
>>> > apostolic Church".
>
>Or as it is written in Lutheran books:
>
>"holy, catholic and apostolic Church"
>
>(Oh yes, that lower case "c" is very important :P)
I believe in the Holy Ghost; The holy Catholick Church; The Communion of
Saints; The Forgiveness of sins; The Resurrection of the body; And the life
everasting. Amen.
{Creed from the Authorised Version of the Prayer Book of the Church of England
(episcopalian but not Roman] form for Morning Service.
For the Communion Serivce, based on the Nicean Creed;
And I believe one Catholick and Apostolick Church. I acknowledge .... [No, not
believe _in_ one Catholic etc]
I think that 16th and 17th century Divines knew that 'catholic' with or without
a C, meant Universal and assumed that the literate part of their congregations
did too. It is only more recently that there is an assumption that catholic
implies Roman.
Regards
John G Harrison
[who was rather horrified to discover that he could still recite most of this
stuff, after ---ahem --- years ]
Regards
John G Harrison
abercjohn
Brian M. Scott
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> Balderdash. The word "catholic" has nothing in the least Orwellian about
> it.
> Your ignorance is appallingly manifest to all.
> Check the clear and unambiguous meaning of "catholic" in any good, standard
> English dictionary.
Most people literate in English are aware that <catholic> and <Catholic>
are not synonymous. Most people literate in English who are at all
well-read will recognize that it was not the word but the sentence in
which it was used that was Orwellian:
> >Sure it does. All Christians are Catholic -- but some are more Catholic
> >than others [ob. Orwell]
Brian M. Scott
Bryan J. Maloney
Efithimia T. Leonardi wrote:
> You raise an interesting point here. Are you referring to the
> Orthodox church being the Catholic Church before the schism and
> remaining as such afterward? Then what is the Roman Catholic
> church? There have been, as you no doubt know, a few attempts
> to join the churches again. The one I am most familiar with place
"And [I belive] in one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."--from the
Symbol of the Faith, aka the "Nicene Creed". Orthodox was the Catholic
Church before the schism of Umberto, it was the Catholic Church after
the schism, it is the Catholic Church today. The "Roman Catholic
Church" is at best a schismatic group that broke away from the One Holy,
Catholic, and Apostolic Church, the Catholic Church being called
"Orthodoxy" in many western countries.
Bryan J. Maloney
Efithimia T. Leonardi wrote:
> The only Coptic I've ever seen (and managed to read) was in
> Coptic Orthodox Liturgy books...and the parish priest nearly fell
> on the floor. I was able to do so because the liturgy is almost entirely
> Greek. There are one or two words I didn't know...but not many more.
Only in the same way that any High Church liturgical English-language
service is "almost entirely in Greek and Latin".
Given that the parent language of the Church among the non-Jews is
Greek, and Latin was the first "language of translation", it makes sense
that very many of the terms derive therefrom.
I always found it ironic that the Latins, having been the beneficiaries
of the first major translation project in Christianity, later turned
around and put Latin on a pedestal, resisting translations into other
vulgar tongues...
Michael L. Siemon
In article <6gk85j$p...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "D. Spencer Hines"
<shi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
+Vide infra.
+
+Balderdash. The word "catholic" has nothing in the least Orwellian about
+it.
+
+Your ignorance is appallingly manifest to all.
Oh, dear. The same fretful and bizarre inability to read that manifested
itself in Hiney's attack on Ms. Talarico shows up again!
For the brain-dead and culturally illiterate reading this (that's *you*
Hines!), my statement was a parody of a (quite famous) line from Orwell's
_Animal Farm_.
I had written, anent the occasional ambiguities of the word catholic, and
the (dis)comfort level some Christians have with this:
+>...All Christians are Catholic -- but some are more Catholic
+>than others [ob. Orwell]
Laura Blanchard
Michael L. Siemon wrote:
[snip discussion of Orwell etc.]
Umm. Sweetness-and-light?
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
http://pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha/shm/
Chromicatus
It seems that there are a reasonable number of good ideas coming to this
question.
What about this:
Why do both the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Christian Chruch have
screens?
Please note that I use the word screens.
You can call them Choir Screens, and then you refer to a church where there
was a capitel. A capital was a number of priests, mostly monks. They would
sit seperate from the laity (but in their eyes the vulgus). The MAIN altar
was in their part of the church. The reason for the screen was two fold:
firstly the reason we are looking at here and secondly the separation of
the monks from the 'world'.
You can call them Rood Screens, and that because there was a rood, or
crucifix, geenrally with a Maria and John figure on both sides. Almost none
survive. I personally know a few in France (Paris) and Belgium. The
crucifix was a pure Gothic element and as such these rood screens only came
into existence from the Gothic period on.
You can call them iconostase, as in the Orthodox church. Yes the priest
breaks the bread and drinks the wine, etc.. behind this screen. This screen
is in most Orthodox churches fully covered by icons (probably hence the
name), but you can still see in e.g. the cathedral of the Peter and Paul
fortress in St.Petersburg (Leningrad) in Russia a metal (full gold and
silver) iconostase which allows you to see the priest.
Why this screen.
Let's go back really to the roots: the jews had in their temple a place
where the arch was stored. The inner sanctum. The place where the Upper
Priest only was allowed (this can be traced back to Mozes).
In other words: the churches have been fulfilling actually a Jewish
religious tradition: seperate the Holy from the world. The sacred handlings
(by the priest) should not be 'spoiled' by the outside world.
Mr.C
Efithimia T. Leonardi
I had no doubt that the Nicean creed is recited in many denominations..
however, the usage of the word catholic became an anachronism after the
schism. There are many churches, not one even though they are catholic,
throughout the world.
Happy Easter to you
EKL
Efithimia T. Leonardi
1...@news.nyu.edu> <352E2E...@cornell.edu>
Distribution:
Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
> Efithimia T. Leonardi wrote:
>
I wouldn't touch that one with a 10 foot Romanian ! Everyone
picks on the Poles!!
Seriously, at this time of year especially, I believe that all of
us are God's children. We can talk to him any way we choose to do so.
Happy Easter or Passover to the group!
Efthimia Kokotos Leonardi
i...@svpal.org
> >From: mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
> >Date: Thu, Apr 9, 1998 14:11 EDT
> >Message-id: <6gj305$b...@corn.cso.niu.edu>
>
> Robert wrote:
>
> "holy, catholic and apostolic Church"
>
> (Oh yes, that lower case "c" is very important :P)
> who has been in Lutheran churches where a strip of paper with "Christian"
> typed on it is glued over the "catholic".
Missouri Synod might one hazard?
> Our Lutheran pastor explained that "catholic" means ..... the universal
> church...... berefit of *all* denominations, however, I suspect this doesn't
> square with those of the Catholic faith.
>
h, a, and c <lower case> straight out of the Nicene Creed IIRC.
Even my "Orange" relatives have no problem with this.
IBM
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Laura Blanchard
i...@svpal.org wrote:
[snip]
> > Robert
> > who has been in Lutheran churches where a strip of paper with "Christian"
> > typed on it is glued over the "catholic".
>
> Missouri Synod might one hazard?
Well, I'm ELCA (that's Evangelical Lutheran Church in America for the
acronymally-challenged), and I've never seen the "catholic" pasted over.
But then, my experience is mostly limited to Lutheran churches in
Pennsylvania. Perhaps it's regional as well as or instead of
denominational.
Dkmedart
Mr. C's statement that chancel crosses or rood crosses asre from the Gothic
period is not true of Denmark. There are over a hundred such crosses in Denmark
dated before 1350, the beginning of the Gothic period in Denmark.
Chromicatus
This is very interesting.
The romanesc period in Western Europe (which we see as before 1140 (St
Denis)) is generally not associated with crosses, or calvaries. The
Romanesc period showed Christ in a Ruler, Law giver, 'Pantocrator'. Crosses
were there, but only in very small amounts.
It is only from the Gothic period that the figure of Maria (representation
of the church (coronation of Maria)) and tha calvary came the focal point
of the images.
Can you see from which date these rood screens appeared (century?)
thanks
Dkmedart <dkme...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199804111154...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Jgissw
>From: eqk...@is2.nyu.edu (Efithimia T. Leonardi)
>Date: 10 Apr 1998 20:30:38 GMT
>Happy Easter or Passover to the group!
>
>
Shalom and Amen.
JGW
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
i...@svpal.org writes:
> jazzm...@aol.com (Jazzman797) wrote:
>> Robert wrote:
>> >Or as it is written in Lutheran books:
>> >"holy, catholic and apostolic Church"
>> >(Oh yes, that lower case "c" is very important :P)
>> >Robert
>> > who has been in Lutheran churches where a strip of paper with "Christian"
>> >typed on it is glued over the "catholic".
> Missouri Synod might one hazard?
I think it was ELCA, but the average age was probably 60ish.
To respond to somebody else's comment, I do agree that this confusion
is relatively modern, after all isn't the Nicene Creed we read a
translation done post-reformation? (or is it?)
>> Our Lutheran pastor explained that "catholic" means ..... the universal
>> church...... berefit of *all* denominations, however, I suspect this doesn't
>> square with those of the Catholic faith.
> h, a, and c <lower case> straight out of the Nicene Creed IIRC.
Yup. (just checked it yesterday :)
> Even my "Orange" relatives have no problem with this.
"Orange"?
> IBM
Robert
Laura Blanchard
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:
> >> >Robert
> >> > who has been in Lutheran churches where a strip of paper with "Christian"
> >> >typed on it is glued over the "catholic".
>
> > Missouri Synod might one hazard?
>
> I think it was ELCA, but the average age was probably 60ish.
Of course, ELCA isn't exactly monolithic, as the difficulties in
ratifying the Agreement of Concordat with the Episcopal Church last
August demonstrate. Anyone interested in further details on that is
encouraged to visit the ELCA web site (http://www.elca.org) and do a
search on "Agreement of Concordat."
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
http:pobox.upenn.edu/~lblancha/shm/
Bryan J. Maloney
Efithimia T. Leonardi wrote:
> Seriously, at this time of year especially, I believe that all of
> us are God's children. We can talk to him any way we choose to do so.
We are all God's children, but that makes the Truth of Orthodoxy no less
True. And the Truth of Orthodoxy in no way diminishes my love of those
who are not Orthodox.
Why does everybody assume that every time I assert the Truth and
exclusive status of Orthodoxy I must be dripping with hatred? What
evidence is there for this?
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
The behaviour of other people who rigidly assert their way is "the Truth".
Though "hatred" may not do justice to the learned expectations,
arrogance, self-satisified over-weaned pride in one's superiority
and/or one's saved position vs. the rest of the world come to mind.
I'm not saying its fair, but when somebody walks onto the commons
with a Bible and a megaphone I tend to roll my eyes and (depending
on my mood) either gird for battle or run the other way.
I have yet to be pleasantly surprized.
Of course your caustic manner when dealing with lesser subjects might
come to play as well. Also the fact that you "assert", you do not
couch it as a belief.
Peace,
Robert
DCGuerra
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: 2nd try: Cathedral Choir Screens (?)
>Date: Thu, Apr 9, 1998 22:17 EDT
>Message-id: <199804100217...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
>
>>Subject: Re: 2nd try: Cathedral Choir Screens (?)
>>From: mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>>Date: Thu, Apr 9, 1998 14:11 EDT
>>Message-id: <6gj305$b...@corn.cso.niu.edu>
>
>>Or as it is written in Lutheran books:
>
>"holy, catholic and apostolic Church"
>
>(Oh yes, that lower case "c" is very important :P)
> who has been in Lutheran churches where a strip of paper with "Christian"
>typed on it is glued over the "catholic".
>
>church...... berefit of *all* denominations,
This Cat'lick chick agrees with your Lutheran pastor (and so would my Jesuit
confessor).
> however, I suspect this doesn't
>square with those of the Catholic faith.
With those of the pre-Vatican II tradition who fell in with one of the Popes (a
Boniface) who held that salvation is promised only to those in submission to
the Roman pontiff.
So much for ecumenism!
Nowadays, the "Catholics" who denigrate and deny salvation to non-Catholics are
"traditionalists" -- mostly members of the schismatic fringe groups like the
the Tridentines (Society of Pius X) and the even wackier Pius Vers!
Sincerely,
Donata
>
>Rowena
>Jazzm...@aol.com
>
>
DCGuerra
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: 2nd try: Cathedral Choir Screens (?)
>Date: Sun, Apr 5, 1998 21:45 EDT
>Message-id: <6g9c4h$7mj$1...@news.nyu.edu>
>
>Robert Terwilliger (bo...@shadow.net) wrote:
>: Repost =====
>
>: What was the purpose of the choir screen in a medieval cathedral? It
>: seems to me it would just block the view of the altar to anybody in
>: the nave. Was this deliberate?
>
Hi, Kathryn. This is a wonderful account you give, and though I'm not a
medieval scholar as you are, I plan to comment on this history of my church:
>Yes, the choir screen, until the late 12th, early 13th centuries was,
>indeed, used to block the view of the priest. The "mystery" of the
>mass--and more especially the consecration of the Host, was out of
>the gaze of the people attending mass.
An unfortunate state of affairs for the Roman Catholic faith community of the
time -- somehwhat making their situation analagous to the pre-Vatican II
tendency to make of the Host a golden idol. People watched its raising on the
altar, but did not partake of the Eucharistic Meal.
> Since the consecration was the
>focal point of the mass for the priest, it was (and this was a rather
>complicated and long theological debate), not deemed proper for ordinary
>parishoners to witness. This changed somewhat with the Fourth Lateran
>Council (in 1215) when it finally became more common practice for the
>ordinary parishoners to receive communion. Until then, communion was
>not a normal "every Sunday" or even every holy day occurrence.
Nowadays everyone walks up. Good.
>
>At this time, and not incidentally, there began to be a great interest
>in the Eucharist and in Eucharistic feast (it is no surprise either
>that this is the same time period when stories of the Holy Grail begin
>to appear: to penetrate the mystery--of the grail or the Eucharist).
God bless 'em. They were starved enough for it. ;-)
>The popular interest in the Eucharist spread, as did stories of
>Eucharistic miracles and we also witness the beginning of the celebration
>of the feast of Corpus Christi (literally, the monstrance of the
>Eucharist). It was at this time that the rood screens came down and
>people streamed into churches to witness the elevation of the Host. It
>should be noted that they didn't necessarily stay for the whole mass, nor
>did they remain in the church *after* the elevation!
Still, making a show of it, while emphazing worship (at least this was worship
"done in community") had unfortunate resonance in the pre-Vatican RC Church
with the emphasis on "Real Presence" as opposed to the Eucharistic Meal.
Televangelist Mother Angelica on EWTN and Roger Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles
are tangling once again on her efforts to "turn back the clock". Even her
televised Masses from Alabama put the priest facing the altar, and the Latin
back in the Mass.
(I caught one last night and had to "hang in there" long enough to ascertain
whether I was indeed watching a Catholic Mass. I'd come in on the sermon,
heard the priest's Alabama accent, saw vestments one doesn't see anymore in the
universal catholic world, and knew where I was at last when the homilist
mentioned Momma Angie.)
>
>: As an associated question, what levels of society had access to what
>: parts of a cathedral - during services and not?
>
> Much to the dismay of Church authorities, anyone and everyone
>had access to most all parts of the church during "off hours"--although
>they were *supposed* to steer clear of the altar. It must be remembered
>that, unlike American (or modern) churches with fixed pews, there were
>few, if any, chairs in cathedrals and there was lots of activity in
>the church at time when the mass was not being celebrated. Theater was
>performed there (until it became too rowdy and had to be performed
>outdoors); baptisms
Baptisms are performed at the 10:45 Mass in my parish once a month. The public
aspect is considered important to the community as a whole.
and marriages, certainly; but there were also
>tradespeople inside the churches as well.
>
>In her novels about Catherine Levendeur, Sharan Newman paints a
>very lively and historically accurate picture of various meetings
>taking place in churches during these "off hours." Indeed, there
>were even prostitutes in the churches at this time... These
>churches were not the quiet, sedate sanctuaries we think of today!
Again, my large parish, run by the Society of the Atonement, is alive with
activity galore even during the week. People who want privatism and fingering
of rosary beads won't find it here.
Some may claim we're not "Catholic". Tough. ;-)
>For more information, and eminently readable scholarly approaches
>to these questions, see Gary Macy's _The Theologies of the
>Eucharist in the Early Scholastic Period_ (Oxford; 1984) and
>Fr. Joseph Jungmann, _The Mass of the Roman Rite_ (1950; rpt. 1986).
>Fr. Jungmann has some fascinating discussions of the lawsuits brought
>by parishoners who wanted to get "good seats" in church in order to
>see the elevation of the Host more clearly. It was reported that in
>one church in England, in the late 13th or early 14th centuries,
>parishoners were heard to yell at the priest at the moment of
>elevation: "Hold up, Sir John. Heave it a little higher!"
This little scenario your recreate is splendidly rendered. Good show!
Sincerely,
Donata
>
>Best regards,
>Kathryn Talarico
>: Bob Terwilliger
>
>: Email: bo...@shadow.net
>: Web Site: http://www.shadow.net/~bobt
>
>: To send me mail,
>: Remove the "z"
>: This is not spam,
>: It's poetry!
>
>