Anglo-Saxon Plant-Name Survey
Peter Alaca
Anglo-Saxon Plant-Name Survey
http://www.le.ac.uk/elh/grj1/landscape.html
The aim of the Survey is to study the plant-names
of Anglo-Saxon England, in whatever medium
they survive (e.g. manuscripts, inscriptions etc.),
and from whatever language they originate. As far
as the evidence allows, plants will be identified by
species, genus, or family, and their significance
in Anglo-Saxon society, as indicated by the
sources, will be discussed.
It is expected that the value of the Survey will
become even more apparent as the information
accumulates, since it will provide data for further
research into topics which are linguistic (e.g.
dialect studies), geographic (e.g. land use
studies), economic (e.g. food studies), scientific
(e.g. medicine), and social (e.g. clothing).
--
p.a.
celia
A most useful site as well as the survey.
Thanks
Celia
Grethe
"Peter Alaca" <P.A...@206.nn> skrev i en meddelelse
news:43ea6a58$0$80016$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
It's amazing all this material coming from Britain.
I can sit here all night studying medieval stuff from
over there, but I'll have to sleep once in a while!
Grethe
celia
I've been thinking about this one, to know the names
is one thing, to be certain what plant they belong to is another.
For example, from memory,in the charters a certain field
is described as growing burrs, another charter calls a
field, that might or might not be the same field,
'clife' A well known author translates this as 'precipice'
I say the charter belongs in a completely different place
where there is no cliff and translate the word as
'cleavers'. If I am right we can deduce that 'clat' was
the word used for all types of burrs and 'clife' for
goosegrass but to submit such an interpretation would
be to put the word of a nobody above that of
Kevin Crossley Holland I man I like and respect and
whose work has given much pleasure.
Celia
Alina
celia wrote:
> Anglo Saxon plant names
>
> I've been thinking about this one, to know the names
> is one thing, to be certain what plant they belong to is another.
True, Celia. There's not much uniformity in ANYTHING Anglo-Saxon,
especially something like plant names.
Great link, Peter.
applefr...@yahoo.com
Peter Alaca
1139600582.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com,
> Peter, is this something you are involved with personally?
No, I am only interested.
I love to know what that names mean.
Since there is a section "Unidentified Plants"
the rest is identified, but the translation is
not in the list.
--
º°º°º°º < Peter Alaca > º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°
celia
I can translate some of them if you wish.
Celia
Darryl
>I can translate some of them if you wish
Please translate as many as you can so I can shamelessly copy it down.
celia
OK I'll do them a few at a time so that their
significance in the period can be commented on.
Jamie and others are better than I am at Old English
but this is pretty basic stuff.
Celia
celia
Brom =Broom. Common Broom - Cytisus scoparius
Apart from the obvious use broom was a
medicinal plant and the young tips were used for dying.
Despite the discussion on Plantagenets its not
today 'Planta genista' though I wouldn't argue
with DSH on this one (would I dare) as similar
plants such as Dyer's Greenweed are Genistas
and it seems it could once have been known as
a Genista.
Cneowholan = Butcher's Broom
Literally knee holly. a low shrub with sharb spines on
the end of the leaves it was used medicinally.
"For a salve take ashes of oakum and Butcher's Broom"
" Take two cups full of the juice of this herb,
which is called vicoriola, and by another name
Knee Holly.
(Heavy use made of Bosworth and Toller)
Celia
celia
Have now found my Krutch Herbal that adds that it was called Butcher's
Broom because it was used to scour chopping blocks and hung up with
meat to deter mice.
Culpeper recommends as a decoction to knit broken bones.
also recommended as a diuretic because as Mattioli says,
" It cures those who cannot urinate except drop by drop"
Celia
Simon Pugh
<c_a_...@hotmail.com> writes
Thanks for that, do you have any other AS medicinal plants?
BTW It sounds as though Butcher's Broom might be intended to help old
men with prostate trouble pass urine rather than as a diuretic - not
quite the same thing. :-)
--
Simon Pugh
Remove X for mail
celia
Fyrs = Furze Ulex europeus
also known as Gorse and Whin
Gors(t) = Gorse
To carry gorse into the house was thought to bring in death.
How old the saying is that kissing is in season when the gorse is in
flower I don't know but there is truth in it.
Used for fodder but the seeds are poisonous.
Gorstbeam = a prickly bush, usually a bramble.
Word = weed or herb (I'm not entirely happy about this translation,
perhaps someone can do better)
celia
>rather than as a diuretic.
Yup, I was quoting Krutch.
I felt it was probably already rather too much information
for a Sunday lunchtime.
I will work my way down the AS Plant Survey Name list
(Unless someone else does)
There's a nice 11th c. herbal in the 'Verwain ' thread
but I can't read it.
Celia
Peter Alaca
>> I love to know what the names mean.
>
> I can translate some of them if you wish.
>
> Celia
I can translate some myself.
And The Thesaurus of Old English looks usefull
http://libra.englang.arts.gla.ac.uk/oethesaurus/
--
p.a
celia
Abies = a spruce Picea abies the fir tree.
St Boniface used a small fir tree growing at the
foot of a sacred oak that he had chopped down
in a stage managed confrontation with pagans
as an example of the Christian life and so
invented the Christmas tree (or something like it)
Ships were alliteratively called 'floating fir'
and were 'wide as the fir grows'
Ac, Acbeam, Actreo = Oak
Acmistel = Mistletoe growing on Oaks
Misteltan = Mistletoe
Except to comment that Mistletoe growing on Oak
is so rare as to be considered a different plant
I will leave this to someone else.
celia
celia
Thanks, I haven't come across that before.
> I can translate some myself
Please do, I think it could be useful.
Shall I carry on with the trees?
Celia
Simon Pugh
celia <c_a_...@hotmail.com> writes
>> help old men with prostrate trouble pass urine
>>rather than as a diuretic.
>
>Yup, I was quoting Krutch.
>I felt it was probably already rather too much information
>for a Sunday lunchtime.
We have strong stomachs on shm :-)
>
>I will work my way down the AS Plant Survey Name list
>(Unless someone else does)
>There's a nice 11th c. herbal in the 'Verwain ' thread
>but I can't read it.
>
> Celia
>
Yes, it's a nice link, but mainly for the pictures. :-)
celia
Aesc = Ash
Wood used for tool handles.
Almost equals the oak in mystical associations.
Pliny says no serpent will lie in its shadow.
"They say that the Ashe is so great force against poyson
that in the circuitie or shadowe of the same there
hathe not bene knowen any maner of venemous
beast to abyde. Dodoens Herball 1578
Gilbert White in his Natural History of Selbourne
Tells of the old custom of passing a child with
rickets through a cleft Ash tree.
He also tells of the 'Shrew Ash'
Cattle and horses were thought to be lamed
by shrews creeping over their legs.
The cure was to rub the affected limb with a
branch taken from an ash tree that had been made
potent by a live shrew being interred in a hole
in the tree.
This custom died out because the ceremony
for consecration of the tree was forgotten.
The Ash was believed to protect against evil spirits.
Aespe =Aspen
Alor = Alder
Ananbeam = Spindle Tree
Used for spindles and skewers.
The spinning wheel became common only in the 16th c.
Anyone kmow the etymology of Ananbeam ?
Celia
celia
Balsalm = Black Poplar ? Populus balsamifera
Usually translated 'Balsalm Tree' this is a cop out.
It just means the tree gives resin so it might be
the Silver Fir, Abies balsamea.
Resin was essential as an adhesive and for dopping
and other jewellery work when mixed with wax.
The Black Poplar buds exude a waxy disinfectant
that makes an ointment. the resin can be used for
sore throats and coughs.
Possibly native in southern England,
introduced elsewhere in Britain.
Bece, Bectreow,Boc, Boctreow = Beech
Beorc, Byrce, Byrctreow = Birch
Used to make the broom to jump over in
informal weddings and box it for the booze
to celebrate with after.
A protective tree.
Blaecthorn =Blackthorn, Sloe
Used for making the Irish shillelagh
though oak is more traditional.
The rarest and most sought after blackthorn
is marked with 'St. Patrick's Thumbprint',
Regular groups of three spines with a dent above.
An ancient charm to prevent thorn pricks going septic,
" Our Lord was the fyrst man,
that euer thorne prickt vpon.
It neuer blysted nor it neuer belted,
and I pray God, nor this not may."
Box, Boxtreow, Byxe = Box
Asser (or pseudo - Asser if you prefer) said
that Berkshire was named after the,
"The wood Berroc where the Box Tree grows
most abundantly"
Am I alone in seeing that he was playing with words ?
The Box Tree doesn't grow abundantly anywhere,
its rare and slow growing. See above for 'box'
The Seven Hundreds of Windsor Forest in
the reign of Henry V held their court at 'Bare Oaks and Beandon'
Bare Oaks Court is now called Bury Court
(pronounced 'berry') I can see it from my house.
The charters name the top of the hill there 'Beorch'
and the bottom 'Berrigan'
(and if Beandon sounds familiar too see ASC 614)
Celia
celia
(I can't type thorn and eth so I'll use 'th'.)
Brer, Brerthyrne = Wild Rose
How's this for topical !
"She must no more...by rose buds divine,
Who'll be her Valentine" (Herrick 1648)
Galls carried as a preventative for toothache.
Ceder, Cederbeam, Cedertreow = Cedar
"Excellent above all trees of the field"
(Old Testament)
Corntreow = Dogwood
The hard straight wood was used for spear shafts and skewers.
fruit prevented and cured bowel disorders.
The related Cornel Cherry was not introduced into Britain until the
16th c.
Cwicbeam, Cwictreow, Cwicen = Rowan
The OE Thesaurus gives Juniper or Aspen for the first two, I think its
wrong; the Rowan or Mountain ash is still known locally as the
Quickbeam or Quickentree.
A substitute for yew in longbows.
Good for tool handles.
Traditionally used to make shepherds crooks as it protects against
witches.
Cystel(beam), Cysten,Cyst(en)beam, Cistenbeam,(not listed) = Chestnut
The Sweet Chestnut was said to have been
introduced to Britain by the Romans.
Traditional coppice trees.
Cyrsteow, Cyrisbeam,Cyrsteow (non listed) = Cherry
Of the Cherry Pliny says that, " There are nine varieties.. they were
not grown in Italy before the period of the victory of the city gained
over Mithridates by Lucullus in the year 680. He was the first to
introduce the tree from Pontus and now in the course of 120 years it
has travelled beyond the oceans and arrived even in Britain"
The gum of the tree considered good for 'gravel or stone'.
Cypressus = Cypress
Branches used as a symbol of mourning.
Celia
celia
Nicely arranged and user friendly but
I keep finding errors.
Celia
Peter Alaca
> Plant name translations
>
> Balsalm = Black Poplar ? Populus balsamifera
Black poplar is P. nigra
P. balsamifera is a North American species,
only introduced in Europe in the 17th c.
> Usually translated 'Balsalm Tree' this is a cop out.
> It just means the tree gives resin so it might be
> the Silver Fir, Abies balsamea.
> Resin was essential as an adhesive and for dopping
> and other jewellery work when mixed with wax.
> The Black Poplar buds exude a waxy disinfectant
> that makes an ointment. the resin can be used for
> sore throats and coughs.
All big poplars have that very fragrant and sticky resin.
very fragrant and sticky resin. It is also collected by
honeybees.
> Possibly native in southern England,
> introduced elsewhere in Britain.
[...]
--
p.a.
Peter Alaca
Yes I saw you mention that Rowan error.
BTW. Is there a difference between 'beam' and 'teow',
or is it only linguistic? 'Beam' I can understand because
tree is 'boom' in Dutch and 'baum' in German, but I
can't place 'teow'.
--
p.a.
celia
Miserable apologies; a 'typo' and I did it twice!
It should of course be 'treow'.
Both words have other meanings such as 'cross'
but I can't think of any difference between them.
Celia
celia
the Thesaurus that 'Stancestil, stancystlum
and stanceastel might mean chestnut.
I have translated these words as meaning a
castle in the sense of an Iron Age fort and the
interpretation of several charters hangs on this.
My translation fitted the bounds so well that
I am reluctant to let it go; if anyone can help
I would be grateful.
Celia
Peter Alaca
I didn't notice, so I made the same mistake
by copying from you.
But that was not what I meant. The question
remains if there was a difference between
treow an beam. And I don't regognize 'treow'.
Alan Crozier
news:43f2e5d1$0$87044$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> celia wrote:
news:1139958463.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>
> >> i can't place 'teow'
> >
> > Miserable apologies; a 'typo' and I did it twice!
> > It should of course be 'treow'.
> > Both words have other meanings such as 'cross'
> > but I can't think of any difference between them.
> >
> > Celia
>
> I didn't notice, so I made the same mistake
> by copying from you.
> But that was not what I meant. The question
> remains if there was a difference between
> treow an beam. And I don't regognize 'treow'.
Somebody ought to have studied the semantic field of Old English
words for tree, but I don't know of any references. The
dictionary shows that the words beam and treow overlap
considerably. Both words mean 'a (growing) tree'. Both are used
in the extended sense of 'the cross' but only treow in the sense
of a 'gallows'. Both are used of things made from a tree: beam
means 'column, pillar' and of course 'beam', while treow means
'piece of wood, beam, stake, staff, cudgel' and is used in
roof-tree and saddle-tree. It seems that only treow could be
used in the sense of 'wood' as a material and 'wood' in a
collective sense, 'a wood'.
Alan
--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden
Peter Alaca
That names souds a bit like Castanea.
Are it just other names for Sweet chesnut?
Horse Chesnut is unlikely because that
came to Europe in 1557.
I have the same problem with the Cedar.
The Libanon Cedar was introduced in England
in 1638, other Cedrus species in the 18th c.
celia
It would help if there was a source given for
these names.
Most are in the charters but Cedar probably
comes from the Bible.
I notice that the same tree names seem to be omitted
from the list and the Thesaurus, wonder which came first.
I took the 'stancestil' etc to come from 'ceaster'.
This really is throwing up a lot of questions about
when and if species were introduced like the
bit in the other thread on Neolithic pear charcoal.
Celia
Peter Alaca
Confusing, especially because so much species
are called treow as well as beam.
And I'm puzzled by the meaning 'cross'. Is it
possible that it is used for crosses that replaced
(solitairy) holy trees?
celia
Treow is the old English for 'tree'
Can't spot any difference with 'beam'
Celia
celia
Solitary 'holy trees' remained well into the Christian era in Britain.
As late as the 19th c. there were 'Fair Oaks' and 'Gospel Oaks' that
were places that functioned as outdoor churches.
The different meanings of 'beam ' and 'treow' muddy the water in lots
of charters for example I wish I knew what a 'beamweir' was, I can
think of several possibilities.
celia
celia
And followed it up with a study of words for boundaries,
protective surrounds and boundary markers.
Sorry I posted my inferior answer to the 'treow' 'beam'
question at the same time as you.
celia
Alan Crozier
I suspect all the references are to 'THE cross', the one on
which JC died. frequently referred to in Old English literature.
Alan Crozier
news:1139999138....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
No need to apologize.
Boel Jepson at Lund University is writing a thesis on English
place-name elements relating to boundaries. Don't hold your
breath, though. She's been working on it since at least 1986.
Having a full-time job doesn't help. You'll find her in this
list of place-name scholars if you want to contact her:
http://www2.sofi.se/NORNA/Reg.A_K.html
celia
When I think about it a lot can be deduced
about methods of punishment and execution
from the words used, take the Easton charters for
example where three words are given for the same
place of execution / punishment. One implies a place of strangulation,
one a place where the victim was
tied to a stone and the other one the ambiguous
' acerbo' stone.
celia
celia
>English place-name elements relating to boundaries.
Thank you ; I'm crawling towards some sort
of understanding, there's only really 'Wyrtwalan'
left giving real difficulty. I can see in the landscape
that it must have been defensive because there's traces
of a double ditch, I had imagined something like
a laid hedge but this doesn't agree with anyone
elses understanding of the word.
Celia
Alan Crozier
That was a new word for me, so I had no understanding of it to
disagree with yours. The dictionary doesn't suggest that it
could have meant anything defensive. The basic meaning is 'root'
but it can also mean the 'foot' of a hill or the 'lower side' of
a wood, according to Bosworth & Toller. The word wyrttruma seems
to be used in a similar way, as the opposite of the 'head' of a
hill or whatever.
Looks like you've got a topic for an interesting study there,
comparing the uses of these words in the charters with what you
see on the ground.
Have you read an article called "The Woodland Verge: Wyrttruma
and Wyrtwala"? See
http://www.cowleyhistory.org.uk/html/olha_journals.html
celia
I know, but I still don't entirely believe it.
The Old English Thesaurus that there's a link
to in this thread gives 'filaments hanging from roots'
and as a landmark that's even more dubious.
Wyrt just means 'plant' that much is clear.
I would like the second element to simply mean 'walled'
but it is a little early for the 'e' to be dropped.
It is just about possible to reconcile my interpretation
with B&T if you take it as a variant of 'wyrtwalian'
meaning to 'set, plant , root or root up' and think
of this as 'layering' and it is getting closer to a
laid hedge rather than a natural one.
By the way, did you find Bosworth and Toller
on line? the one I use has vanished again.
Celia
celia
i've been thinking about this. Both words are used several times in the
'Dream of the Rood', this seems to suggest that it's not a dialect
difference and that there could be some subtle nuance of meaning that
we are missing.
celia
Peter Alaca
> [...]
> By the way, did you find Bosworth and Toller
> on line? the one I use has vanished again.
>
> Celia
Here http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/
and here http://tinyurl.com/cwo8j
and here http://tinyurl.com/bvwun
--
p.a.
celia
Plant name translations
Ellen =Elder Sambucus nigra
Elm, Ilme, Ulmtreow =Elm
Eoh, Iw = Yew
Long associated with witchcraft and churchyards;
but was it planted on graves before the Christian era ?
In the 10th c. AS Leech Book berries given as one
of the ingredients used in the charm against the
Water Elf Disease. (I've put the link above in case
anyone is suffering from it but be warned ,
the seeds of yew berries are poisonous,
Water Elf Disease might be better than the cure)
Yew was the best wood for long bows.
Said to have provided shelter for the first
Christian missionaries to Britain.
Eorthifig =Ivy
The ivy growing on the ground was considered
to be different from the ivy that grew up trees.
Fulabeam, Fuletreow = Black Alder
Celia
Uwe Müller
"celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1140034760.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > the basic meaning is 'root'
>
> I know, but I still don't entirely believe it.
> The Old English Thesaurus that there's a link
> to in this thread gives 'filaments hanging from roots'
> and as a landmark that's even more dubious.
> Wyrt just means 'plant' that much is clear.
> I would like the second element to simply mean 'walled'
> but it is a little early for the 'e' to be dropped.
> It is just about possible to reconcile my interpretation
> with B&T if you take it as a variant of 'wyrtwalian'
> meaning to 'set, plant , root or root up' and think
> of this as 'layering' and it is getting closer to a
> laid hedge rather than a natural one.
> snip >
I don't know if this is helpful, but these are two associations I had.
In Schleswig-Holstein, there was a type of special tended hedge quite common
as a field boundary called 'Knick'. Even after the hedges have gone to
create harvester friendly giant fields, plave names still refer to those
hedges.
Here in Brandenburg there is a type of enclosed area, usually a meadow, but
no for grazing, which was originally completely surrounded by hedges called
'Hag'. (-hagen is also part of old place names denoting some enclosure.)
There are place names that denote activities for those areas, such as
'Bleichhag', a hag for bleaching, or some special feature, 'Dornhag', an
enclosure surrounded by bushes with thorns.
Could your 'Wyrtwalan' have described such an enclosure with a special
feature, a tended hedge of some sort?
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Alan Crozier
--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden
"celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140034760.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > the basic meaning is 'root'
>
> I know, but I still don't entirely believe it.
> The Old English Thesaurus that there's a link
> to in this thread gives 'filaments hanging from roots'
> and as a landmark that's even more dubious.
> Wyrt just means 'plant' that much is clear.
> I would like the second element to simply mean 'walled'
> but it is a little early for the 'e' to be dropped.
> It is just about possible to reconcile my interpretation
> with B&T if you take it as a variant of 'wyrtwalian'
> meaning to 'set, plant , root or root up' and think
> of this as 'layering' and it is getting closer to a
> laid hedge rather than a natural one.
I think the verb is obviously secondary, its meaning coming from
the root (sorry) meaning 'root'. It's hard to say what the wala
(or walu) in wyrtwala means. It's possible that the German word
for root, Wurzel, like the Dutch wortel, Peter, has a worn-down
form of this wala. German etymological dictionaries define this
original *wurt-walu as 'root-stick', the latter element from a
root meaning something 'wound' or 'round' (Welease Woger!). None
of this is of any support to you in your theory but don't let me
discourage you.
> By the way, did you find Bosworth and Toller
> on line? the one I use has vanished again.
No, I found it on my bookshelf.
Alan
celia
No but it makes sense. Don't mind me, I'm always
questioning things. Its no real problem in that the
bounds were at the bottom of a hill but some way
from where it levels out. Its still got to have some sort
of barrier because of mention of a guard post and gate
in adjoining charters.
> No I found it on my bookshelf.
Book envy stikes again.
To see a B&T I have to travel into town and
spend a fortune on car parking.
Thanks for your help.
Celia
celia
Thanks for your help Uwe. Our charters also use the word 'hagan' and
part of the problem here is that this was an area that appears to be
completely enclosed by either 'hagan' or stockade except for the bit
described as 'wyrtwalan', the defences are such that I expected it to
mean more than just the bottom of the hill.
Ah well, I've had plenty of practice at getting things wrong.
Celia
Peter Alaca
>>> the basic meaning is 'root'
>>
>> I know, but I still don't entirely believe it.
>> The Old English Thesaurus that there's a link
>> to in this thread gives 'filaments hanging from roots'
>> and as a landmark that's even more dubious.
>> Wyrt just means 'plant' that much is clear.
>> I would like the second element to simply mean 'walled'
>> but it is a little early for the 'e' to be dropped.
>> It is just about possible to reconcile my interpretation
>> with B&T if you take it as a variant of 'wyrtwalian'
>> meaning to 'set, plant , root or root up' and think
>> of this as 'layering' and it is getting closer to a
>> laid hedge rather than a natural one.
>
> I think the verb is obviously secondary, its meaning coming from
> the root (sorry) meaning 'root'. It's hard to say what the wala
> (or walu) in wyrtwala means. It's possible that the German word
> for root, Wurzel, like the Dutch wortel, Peter, has a worn-down
> form of this wala. German etymological dictionaries define this
> original *wurt-walu as 'root-stick', the latter element from a
> root meaning something 'wound' or 'round' (Welease Woger!). None
> of this is of any support to you in your theory but don't let me
> discourage you.
>
>> By the way, did you find Bosworth and Toller
>> on line? the one I use has vanished again.
Wyrtwala is mentioned in my etymological dictionaries
under the lemma 'wortel'
They come to the same conclusion 'root-stick'.
But in some languages the first part means 'herb/plant',
eg. Middle Dutch 'wurt(e) and Old Dutch 'wurti'
Peter Alaca
> "celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:1140034760.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>> the basic meaning is 'root'
>>
>> I know, but I still don't entirely believe it.
>> The Old English Thesaurus that there's a link
>> to in this thread gives 'filaments hanging from roots'
>> and as a landmark that's even more dubious.
>> Wyrt just means 'plant' that much is clear.
>> I would like the second element to simply mean 'walled'
>> but it is a little early for the 'e' to be dropped.
>> It is just about possible to reconcile my interpretation
>> with B&T if you take it as a variant of 'wyrtwalian'
>> meaning to 'set, plant , root or root up' and think
>> of this as 'layering' and it is getting closer to a
>> laid hedge rather than a natural one.
>
>> snip >
>
> I don't know if this is helpful, but these are two associations I had.
>
> In Schleswig-Holstein, there was a type of special tended hedge quite
> common as a field boundary called 'Knick'. Even after the hedges have
> gone to create harvester friendly giant fields, plave names still
> refer to those hedges.
Knicks are hedges on ditched banks.
> Here in Brandenburg there is a type of enclosed area, usually a
> meadow, but no for grazing, which was originally completely
> surrounded by hedges called 'Hag'. (-hagen is also part of old place
> names denoting some enclosure.)
>
> There are place names that denote activities for those areas, such as
> 'Bleichhag', a hag for bleaching, or some special feature, 'Dornhag',
> an enclosure surrounded by bushes with thorns.
>
> Could your 'Wyrtwalan' have described such an enclosure with a special
> feature, a tended hedge of some sort?
--
p.a.
celia
Thank-you, the banks and ditches are not
the usual wood banks but there is not always
a hedge.
I must chase up my lent out Racham book
and see if it throws light on the subject.
Celia
Uwe Müller
"Peter Alaca" <P.A...@206.nn> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:43f3c6d5$0$74047$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> Uwe Müller wrote: news:dt07kl$5mg$1...@online.de
>
> > "celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:1140034760.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >>> the basic meaning is 'root'
> >>
> >> I know, but I still don't entirely believe it.
> >> The Old English Thesaurus that there's a link
> >> to in this thread gives 'filaments hanging from roots'
> >> and as a landmark that's even more dubious.
> >> Wyrt just means 'plant' that much is clear.
> >> I would like the second element to simply mean 'walled'
> >> but it is a little early for the 'e' to be dropped.
> >> It is just about possible to reconcile my interpretation
> >> with B&T if you take it as a variant of 'wyrtwalian'
> >> meaning to 'set, plant , root or root up' and think
> >> of this as 'layering' and it is getting closer to a
> >> laid hedge rather than a natural one.
> >
> >> snip >
> >
> > I don't know if this is helpful, but these are two associations I had.
> >
> > In Schleswig-Holstein, there was a type of special tended hedge quite
> > common as a field boundary called 'Knick'. Even after the hedges have
> > gone to create harvester friendly giant fields, plave names still
> > refer to those hedges.
>
> Knicks are hedges on ditched banks.
Not precisely what I experienced in S.-H. Stones from the fields (there are
lots of stones) are gathered at the sides to form low banks. Shrubs and
small trees, that will grow on that, are bend down ('geknickt'), their
uppermost branches weighed with stones so that only the tips are free, which
will then start growing roots and grow as 'separate' plants.
So even though there is little earth between the stones the bending down of
branches keeps the plants relatively small and continously growing. They
provide living space for dozend of species of birds and small mammals
(preventing other animals from getting at the crops) and stop the wind from
carrying off the top soil.
I have never encountered ditches flanking the Knicks, but Ostholstein, where
I lived, isn't really in need of irrigation
> snip >
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Peter Alaca
I saw them decribed as ditched banks, wich is
a common kind af woodwall.
But you are right. they are not all banked or ditched.
And in many cases there is no sign of (former) layering.
> Shrubs and small trees, that will grow on that, are bend down
> ('geknickt'), their uppermost branches weighed with stones so that
> only the tips are free, which will then start growing roots and grow
> as 'separate' plants.
That is called layering, but that works only with
easily rooting species.
Another (and more common?) technique is called laying.
Here the stem of the bush or small tree is partly cut and
laid to one side and secured. Because they are not cut
completedly, they grow new shoots, as does the trunk of
the tree.
> So even though there is little earth between the stones the bending
> down of branches keeps the plants relatively small and continously
> growing. They provide living space for dozend of species of birds and
> small mammals (preventing other animals from getting at the crops)
> and stop the wind from carrying off the top soil.
>
> I have never encountered ditches flanking the Knicks, but
> Ostholstein, where I lived, isn't really in need of irrigation
Irrigation is not neccseceraly the purpose
if the bank was made with the soil from the
ditch. A ditch makes it extra difficult for cattle
to pass the wall or to damage the hedge .
A good site about hedges is
http://handbooks.btcv.org.uk/handbooks/index/book/6
with much about layng.
celia
Much the same round old woods here but usually without the hedge.
Thanks for the link that gave lots to think about.
One of 'my' charters talks of a path where the boundaries rub together
that is hedged for the protection of our defenders; in another charter
this path is described as a yard wide.
this seems to fit with your double ditch.
Have you any dates for early laying and layering of hedges ?
I can't find any so far.
To toss a little more wild etymological speculation
into the mix; the place where the 'wyrtwalan' was
was where three manors met, one charter names it
'three beorgs' though I am uncertain of the meaning of 'beorg '
in the context.
One of the holdings was Waltham, and that was
the earliest known spelling (7th c.)
Another is now named Warfield but in D B
was 'Warwelt'.
The theory is (Margaret Gelling) that all Walthams
originated as Wealdhams and that the 'd' becomes a 't'
before 'ham'
But the element comes at the end of 'Warwelt' and
Waltham is an early name that is nowhere recorded
with a 'd'.
In the Middle English the word 'welt' is also spelled
'walt' suggesting that an Old English word 'wealt' existed.
A welt is the protective strip of leather round a shoe.
AFAIK AS footwear didn't have welts.
So perhaps at one time a welt was another sort
of protective strip related to the OE for wall, 'weall'
and altogether appropriate as part of the names
of these well defended places.
Enough speculation for one day.
Celia
IE J
"celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:1140102802....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Celia and other participating in this interesting discussion. Been following
your discussions, but can't find a good map nor a good photo of the place
you Celia mention as where 'three manors met'. If anyone of you sent such an
url I missed it. If not I wonder if you might be so kind to send an url or
two? Thanks in advance.
Inger E
>
IE J
discussiongroup's server
"celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:1140102802....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Celia and other participating in this interesting discussion. Been following
Peter Alaca
>> I saw them described as 'ditched banks' which is a common form of
>> woodwall.
>
> Much the same round old woods here but usually without the hedge.
Probably to protect the wood or to keep
the deer (and pigs?) in
> Thanks for the link that gave lots to think about.
> One of 'my' charters talks of a path where the boundaries rub together
> that is hedged for the protection of our defenders; in another charter
> this path is described as a yard wide.
> this seems to fit with your double ditch.
>
> Have you any dates for early laying and layering of hedges ?
> I can't find any so far.
No I haven't, but since it is such a effective and
widespread technique, I quess it is very old.
And not only to keep cattle in or out, but also
as defence.
Overhere we have 'landweren' (sing. 'landweer'),
defensive lineair (double) earthworks topped
with a palisade and/or thorns.
> To toss a little more wild etymological speculation
> into the mix; the place where the 'wyrtwalan' was
> was where three manors met, one charter names it
> 'three beorgs' though I am uncertain of the meaning
> of 'beorg' in the context.
The manors or mounds? How about three walls?
> One of the holdings was Waltham, and that was
> the earliest known spelling (7th c.)
> Another is now named Warfield but in D B
> was 'Warwelt'.
> The theory is (Margaret Gelling) that all Walthams
> originated as Wealdhams and that the 'd' becomes a 't'
> before 'ham'
> But the element comes at the end of 'Warwelt' and
> Waltham is an early name that is nowhere recorded
> with a 'd'.
> In the Middle English the word 'welt' is also spelled
> 'walt' suggesting that an Old English word 'wealt' existed.
> A welt is the protective strip of leather round a shoe.
> AFAIK AS footwear didn't have welts.
> So perhaps at one time a welt was another sort
> of protective strip related to the OE for wall, 'weall'
> and altogether appropriate as part of the names
> of these well defended places.
> Enough speculation for one day.
>
> Celia
Peter Alaca
> I sent this 17.15 Swedish time but it doesn't seem to have arrived the
> discussiongroup's server
> [...]
But I saw (and see) it, posted 17:12
--
p.a.
celia
I just don't know, the only thing I'm certain of is that
it doesn't mean three hills.
Its an area near the burial mounds of the heathen
according to one charter and as until recently that
place was named 'The Hows' the word isn't ambiguous there. Another
charter refers to 'Ruwan Beorg' at this spot and that is also difficult
to interpret - ruined stronghold, home of the tapestry makers, burial
place of Ruwa, mound where dyed fabric was dried.... ? As a guard post
was situated there some sort of fence is likely. As three parish
boundaries meet it would have had a spiritual significance at one time.
The county archaeologist had a wander round with me and seemed to
think there was something going on there.
Celia
celia
Hi Inger,
Neither can I. I think its a conspiracy to get us
to buy the full sized maps.
Or it could just be that I'm no good with computers.
the best I can do is through the link Peter gave in
the first post in this thread.
The BrItish Library Collect Britain Site there
has a map that was part of the Atlas of William Cecil,
Lord Burghley, Elizabeth I Secretary of State, the title is
Estates at Windsor Berkshire
Find Brick Bridge on it and that was the bridge by
the palace that was once named the Embroiderers Bridge
The area being discussed is a little south of this
towards Billingbear and Binfield.
At the beginning of the 19th c. the area was drained
by the digging of the cut so the water courses
are completely different but the place where the
three parishes meet can be seen on the
6" Ordnance Survey Series, also listed in the
link Peter gave. The grid reference is
485974,174211
Westley Mill is named 'Westleas Hagan' in a charter
Yates Farm is called 'The Yate' meaning 'gate' in
another charter. At Buck Farm there is still a
boundary stone that I think is the stone mentioned
in a couple of charters. The two parallel lines on the
left are the narrow track called Lodderae Straet in
one charter, it continued to the top of the hill at
Binfield at one time. Where all the roads come together
was where the guard post was. It is possible that
the mill was there a thousand years ago as a
Mill Lane (rough translation) led that way.
Sorry no pictures, my camera is broken
so there's not much I can do about that but
I'll see if I can find something to scan.
Celia
Alan Crozier
Celia, have you got the coordinates? That part of the world is
visible in beautiful detail on Google Earth. Is it just north of
the motorway between the Reading/Wokingham and Maidenhead exits?
Peter Alaca
She gave the coordinates (485974,174211)
--
p.a.
celia
> Reading/Wokingham and Maidenhead exits?
You've got the right bit of motorway.
It was built over the Iron Age fort.
(I don't think the idiots knew it was there
but its well documented.)
The area discussed is to the south of the motorway.
I must try to get Google Earth.
I live to the north of the motorway near
the big house and lake (owned by the Oppenheimers
of de Beers diamonds) There used to be a Roman
building there said to be 40 yards long.
Opposite the church you can see evidence
of an old settlement and place names suggest
a burial place (Earl's Low and Earls Low Down)
The early name of the lane leading there
indicates that this was once called 'Dun'
And the 'Bury Court' name confirms its
importance. Hearne found Roman remains there.
Celia
Alan Crozier
Go to Google, click on More, download Earth and then zoom in.
It's great. If you know where to look, you can see our red car
parked outside the house.
There's an interesting feature in your district, I thought at
first it was an ancient chalk figure like the Cerne Giant but
it's more probably a race track for motorbikes of some kind.
Alan Crozier
news:43f500f1$0$75349$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
To find it on Google Earth you need something like this:
51 26 39 18 N
0 47 07 03 W
celia
Sorry the last lot of tree names and the cure for
Water Elf Disease got out of order.
Furh, Fyrh, Furhwudu = Pine
Tapped for resin used for pitch, tar and turpentine.
Numerous uses including medicinal.
The Romans added seawater, pitch, rosin and
turps to wine.
Gatetreow = Cornel cherry
Haesel, Haesler = Hazel
Nut tree
Haeth = Heath, Heather
Heord = Sycamore
Literally 'hard'
Heort Brem(b)el, Heorot Breir = Buckthorn
Hartsthorn was used as a laxative.
Dodeons comments,
"They be not meat to be administered but to
the young and lusty...who set more store of
their money than their lives"
Hlin = Maple
Holen, Hulfere, Hulver = Holly
Romans sent boughs with gifts to friends at Saturnalia
Druids brought into houses during winter to give a home
to wood spirits.
Edict of Bracara forbade Christians from decorating
their homes with it at the same time as the pagans.
Birdlime made from the fermented bark of young holly
and goose grease.
Straight sticks used for the stocks of driving whips.
Protects against lightening and witchcraft.
Celia
Peter Alaca
celia
Got it, after a couple of false starts
That is fantastic, love the way they black out
GHQ etc, a sort of X marks the spot for terrorists !
As the Labour Party HQ is clearly labelled I'm
not sure of the political bias here.
You can even see my mare waiting at the field gate
I must be out for a drive with the old grey pony
somewhere.
A great time of year for crop marks too.
this is great fun; thanks.
Celia
Peter Alaca
> Plant name translations
>
> Sorry the last lot of tree names and the cure for
> Water Elf Disease got out of order.
>
> Furh, Fyrh, Furhwudu = Pine
> Tapped for resin used for pitch, tar and turpentine.
> Numerous uses including medicinal.
> The Romans added seawater, pitch, rosin and
> turps to wine.
Why Pine (Pinus)and not Fir (Abies)?
Abies btw is introduced in the 17th c.
> Gatetreow = Cornel cherry
This name (Cornalian cherry) was unknown to me,
but it appears to be Cornus mas, which is not in
my British Flora and also according to the
Checklist of the flora of Britain & Ireland
http://www.bsbi.org.uk/html/database.html
it is not an native species
> Haesel, Haesler = Hazel
> Nut tree
>
> Haeth = Heath, Heather
>
> Heord = Sycamore
> Literally 'hard'
>
> Heort Brem(b)el, Heorot Breir = Buckthorn
> Hartsthorn was used as a laxative.
> Dodeons comments,
> "They be not meat to be administered but to
> the young and lusty...who set more store of
> their money than their lives"
>
> Hlin = Maple
>
> Holen, Hulfere, Hulver = Holly
> Romans sent boughs with gifts to friends at Saturnalia
> Druids brought into houses during winter to give a home
> to wood spirits.
> Edict of Bracara forbade Christians from decorating
> their homes with it at the same time as the pagans.
> Birdlime made from the fermented bark of young holly
> and goose grease.
> Straight sticks used for the stocks of driving whips.
> Protects against lightening and witchcraft.
>
> Celia
You say Heord = Sycamore and Hlin = Maple.
I doubt it. Further down the list are mapulder/
mapultreow (maple) and sicomorus/sycomer
(sycamore).
So, are Heord and Hlin additional names or other
species?
Maple must be the Field Maple (Acer campestre),
the only inative maple species.
The Sycamore or Great Maple is introduced in the
15th or 16th century.
celia
i'm working with two disadvantages here
I don't know what the sources of these names are
and the B&T I use keeps vanishing leaving me
with the less than accurate Thesaurus.
Abies, Aebs was one of the first on the list
and must be Abies/Fir
Other names given on the list for firs and pines etc
include Furh, Fyrh Furhwuda and Gyrtreow.
When I can get B&T I get a few more clues
as to which is which as it gives the words in
context.
> Cornel Cherry
I had the same problem with Cornel cherry being
an introduced species when I did 'Corntreow'
usually translated as 'Cornel Cherry', on balance I decided
that 'dogwood' was as likely. Perhaps it is for Gatetreow too
but 'Cornel Cherry ' seems to be the accepted translation.
This is the preferred wood for spear shafts so perhaps
the word was used in that context rather than mentioned as
a boundary tree.
Perhaps it would be possible to check out the Sycamore
and maple names in a bookshelf B&T. but as far as I can see
that's the translation and I'm as puzzled as you are.
The charters often refer to 'ealden mapolder'
Can't say I've ever seen a substantial field maple.
I've tried entering these in the charter web site
but its not easy to search using it, it tends to not
give words that you know are there so it proves
nothing when nothing comes up.
Celia
Alan Crozier
B&T give hlyn, hlynn, hlin, defined as 'the name of a tree,
maple [?]' In other words, it's not obvious from the text what
tree it is, but since the Icelandic hlynr means maple (as do the
related Swedish lönn, German Lehne/Lenne/Leinbaum and even
Russian klėn), the meaning seems likely.
Why they needed two words for maple I don't know. They evidently
weren't both necessary, as only mapulder/mapeltreow survived
while hlyn died out. With the loss of h and the change from y to
i, the word hlyn would have been too close to lind/linn (lime)
There shouldn't be an Old English name for the sycamore since
the tree did not occur in England then. The one in Luke's story
of Zachaeus was translated 'sycomer' but that's not the maple
type but a mulberry fig:
http://home.planters.net/~thegivans/graphics/sycamore06.jpg
I can't find your tree-name 'heord' anywhere.
celia
Thanks Alan, it does help to have a B&T.
My only source for Heord/Heard is the list and the Thesaurus and I'm
coming to the conclusion that they are linked. If I'd been asked I
would have said that one was 'herd' and the other 'hard'
The Thesaurus gives 'Sycamore'. I suppose if it was taken from the
Bible where it used to be translated 'Sycamore' then it doesn't have to
be a native tree to have an Old English word.
I suppose 'Abies ' could also be the Bible, its Latin so the tree
shouldn't be in doubt.
i'm having great fun on screen globe trotting and really should get
some paid work done.
Can I pass on to the archaeologists among us a small puzzle thrown up
by this. At map ref 51 28 36 07 N
0 50 26 57 W the outline of a square enclosure can be seen.
This is also marked on OS maps. In a charter that I am still working on
so this might not be correct it is linked to Cissa,
another charter says that Cissa's beorg is off Pendry's Lane, a track
by Westley Mill where we were looking previously, I don't know if he
lived or was buried there or the exact location, the OS shows a mound
nearby.
The puzzle is this, place names, local tradition, and the charters
all indicate that this enclosure was flooded for half the year at this
time, this is not the only enclosure in the area that would have had
this problem. What's going on here?
Celia
Peter Alaca
I have. There is one in a public garden near my home,
c 15 meters tall. When I first saw it I didn't regognise
it as such.
> I've tried entering these in the charter web site
> but its not easy to search using it, it tends to not
> give words that you know are there so it proves
> nothing when nothing comes up.
>
> Celia
To take a advance: I think oser, welig,
windeltreow, wir and wiþig probably
are all Willows and I would not be surprised
if there were more in the list. There are a lot
of species and varieties.
celia
Haven't come across 'wir ' before but it
sounds likely. Any ideas on sorting them out?
I know withies were used to tie things up because
I keep coming across a rather nasty place of
punishment/execution where people were tied to
a stone with withies.
Celia
Peter Alaca
> Peter Alaca wrote:
>> I think...are all willows
Sorting them out is difficult. As I said, there are
many species and many hybrids. And in the old
wicker culture (Is that the correct term?), many
were named after color or use.
To give you the idea, are here the 20 species
of willow of Brittain according to the Botanical
Society of the British Isles (BSBI)
Frequent
Salix alba (White Willow) *
Salix aurita (Eared Willow) *
Salix caprea (Great Sallow) *
Salix cinerea subsp. oleifolia (Common Sallow) *
Salix fragilis (Crack Willow) *
Salix repens (Creeping Willow) *
Salix viminalis (Common Osier) *
Occasional
Salix cinerea subsp. cinerea (Fen Sallow) *
Salix herbacea (Least Willow) *
Salix pentandra (Bay Willow) *
Salix phylicifolia (Tea-leaved Willow) *
Salix purpurea (Purple Willow) *
Salix triandra (Almond Willow)
Scarce
Salix arbuscula (Little Tree Willow) *
Salix daphnoides (European Violet-willow)
Salix lanata (Wooly Willow) *
Salix lapponum (Downy Willow)
Salix myrsinifolia (Dark-leaved Willow)
Salix myrsinites (Myrtle-leaved Willow)
Salix reticulata (Reticulate Willow) *
* Illustrated
To acces this list, go to
http://www.reticule.co.uk/flora/content/SEARCH.ASP
and type "salix"' in the first field. If you click
on a name you get more information and acces
to a distribution map.
BTW. In Dutch we have only one name for Salix
(Wilg) while in English there are three (Willow,
Sallow and Osier)
Alan Crozier
What about that most British of all willows, the Cricket-bat
Willow? It's not on your list.
celia
Dear Mr. Crozier
It ain't an Osier
It's Salix Caerulea
And comes from Asia
Family Salicaceae
So says I, Celia
Grethe
"celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1140179613.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>. >There shouldn't be an Old English name for the Sycamore.
>
> Thanks Alan, it does help to have a B&T.
> My only source for Heord/Heard is the list and the Thesaurus and I'm
> coming to the conclusion that they are linked. If I'd been asked I
> would have said that one was 'herd' and the other 'hard'
> The Thesaurus gives 'Sycamore'. I suppose if it was taken from the
> Bible where it used to be translated 'Sycamore' then it doesn't have to
> be a native tree to have an Old English word.
> I suppose 'Abies ' could also be the Bible, its Latin so the tree
> shouldn't be in doubt.
>
> i'm having great fun on screen globe trotting and really should get
> some paid work done.
>
> Can I pass on to the archaeologists among us a small puzzle thrown up
> by this. At map ref 51 28 36 07 N
> 0 50 26 57 W the outline of a square enclosure can be seen.
> This is also marked on OS maps. In a charter that I am still working on
> so this might not be correct it is linked to Cissa,
> another charter says that Cissa's beorg is off Pendry's Lane,
Sorry to interrupt, but I haven't seen this word *beorg*
in English before. Is it Old English for a castle?
Grethe
celia
Please do
> I haven't seen this word 'beorg' in English before.
> Is it old English for a castle?
If only it was that easy; it's one of those words
with lots of meanings. take your pick from
hill
mountain;
protection;
refuge;
defence;
mound;
tumulus;
preserve;
guard;
burial place;
fortified dwelling etc etc
Sometimes the context helps, usually not.
Celia
Alan Crozier
You need your own teeth to say that
Alan
Grethe
came from my search once for an English translation of
the Danish word *borg* , used for a medieval fortified
'castle' (often surrounded by water), and I haven't yet
found an English word for this.
Grethe
celia
>translation of the Danish word 'borg', used for a
>medieval fortified 'castle'... I haven't yet yet found
> an English word for this.
I think you have, 'castle' is as good a word as any,
unless you want it in Old English.
Celia
Grethe
"Alan Crozier" <name1...@telia.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:%rmJf.45219$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
''''
Andrew Chaplin
That is likely the post most worth reading I have seen all week. Thanks.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
celia
Hunigesuge =Honeysuckle also Weoden-binde = Woodbine
Locally known as 'Goats leaf'
The 'lai' 'Chevrefoil' by Marie de France
developes the image of the honeysuckle
winding round the hazel that Tristran wrote for Isolde.
"The sweet honeysuckle vine
That on the hazel tree will twine
When it fastens, slips itself right
Around the trunk tiesitself tight,
Then the two survive together
But should anyone try to sever
Then the hazel dies right away
And the honeysuckle the same day"
(translation J. Shoal)
Hwitingtreow = Whitebeam
Edible fruit useful hard wood
Ifig = Ivy
Association with Bachus led to belief in
ivy as protection against intoxication.
Ivy-female Holly-male
"Holy stand in the hall,
fayre to behold;
Ivy stand without the dore;
she is ful sore a=cold.
Holy and his mery men,
they dawnsyn and they syng;
Ivy and her maydenys,
they wepyn and they wryng.
(15th c. manuscript)
Laur, Laurbeam, Laurtreow, Lawernbeam = Laurel
Lind = Lime, Linden.
Inner bark or 'bast' is a useful fibre.
Lusthorn = Spindle tree
Mapulder, Mapultreow = Field Maple
Oser = Osier
(i'll do all the willows together)
Pinbeam, Pintreow = Pine
Celia
celia
I've just discovered that 'Sicomorus'
translates as a type of fig!
Can anyone give me a translation of
'prima cura eius omnia sananda'
from a herbal of about 1400 please.
I can't read Latin. Hope its not too embarrasing
i suspect this was medieval viagra.
Celia
Alan Crozier
Not just impotence, it's a prime cure for everything that needs
to be healed. Is it the mulberry fig that has these wonderful
properties, or is it a different plant?
celia
It's the Sutherige, as far as I can make out
its not a tree but an orchid, still struggling
with this one; I wonder if it's marketable.
Thanks for the translation.
Celia
Peter Alaca
>> Sicomorus/sycomer
>
> I've just discovered that 'Sicomorus'
> translates as a type of fig!
A fig?
If it is Mulberry as Alan suggests, then you can
choose between Black (or Common) Mulberry
/Morus nigra/and White Mulberry /Morus alba/.
The Black is the most likely.
Best known from monastery and manor gardens,
often trimmed against a wall.
I love them, if they are ripe.
More: http://tinyurl.com/bf3v3
> Can anyone give me a translation of
> 'prima cura eius omnia sananda'
> from a herbal of about 1400 please.
> I can't read Latin. Hope its not too embarrasing
> i suspect this was medieval viagra.
Machine translation:
"The first concern of it the all things requiring to be cured"
David Read
"Alan Crozier" <name1...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:IE1Kf.45402$d5.2...@newsb.telia.net...
A different plant. See here:-
http://digital.library.ucla.edu/immi/librarian?ITEMID=YM18F14&SIZE=Medium
The rest of the Medieval Medical Images Project site seems worth exploring
too:-
http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/his/immi/immi_currentpilotproject.html
--
cheers,
David Read
Peter Alaca
Ah, an orchis. In that case very likely one
or more from the genus Orchis.
Orchis species have two ar three tubers,
some in the form of 'testicles'
See e.g.
Orchis morio
http://tinyurl.com/7blny
Orchis mascula
http://www.orchids.de/shop/fuchs/masc.jpg
--
p.a.
Peter Alaca
> "Alan Crozier" wrote
>> "celia" wrote
>>>> Sicomorus/sycomer
>>> I've just discovered that 'Sicomorus'
>>> translates as a type of fig!
>>>
>>> Can anyone give me a translation of
>>> 'prima cura eius omnia sananda'
>>> from a herbal of about 1400 please.
>>> I can't read Latin. Hope its not too embarrasing
>>> i suspect this was medieval viagra.
>> Not just impotence, it's a prime cure for everything that needs
>> to be healed. Is it the mulberry fig that has these wonderful
>> properties, or is it a different plant?
> A different plant. See here:-
>
> http://digital.library.ucla.edu/immi/librarian?ITEMID=YM18F14&SIZE=Medium
>
> The rest of the Medieval Medical Images Project site seems worth
> exploring too:-
>
> http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/his/immi/immi_currentpilotproject.html
So, we both ended with Orchis.
But for me it still is a mistery why Celia
connects Sicomorus with Orchis.
See e.g. The Aberdeen Bestiary, folio 79r
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/translat/79r.hti
" The sycamore, /sicomorus/, like morus, has
a Greek name. It is so called because its leaf
is like that of a mulberry tree. In Latin it is
called celsa, from its height, because it is not
short like the mulberry. "
Much more trees etc. in that Ms.
Alan Crozier
> celia wrote:
news:1140363952....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>
> >> Sicomorus/sycomer
> >
> > I've just discovered that 'Sicomorus'
> > translates as a type of fig!
>
> A fig?
> If it is Mulberry as Alan suggests, then you can
> choose between Black (or Common) Mulberry
> /Morus nigra/and White Mulberry /Morus alba/.
> The Black is the most likely.
> Best known from monastery and manor gardens,
> often trimmed against a wall.
> I love them, if they are ripe.
When they write about the sycomore (as opposed to sycamore) in
Anglo-Saxon texts it is not an indigenous plant. It's a biblical
reference (Luke 19) to a kind of Middle Eastern fig tree, Ficus
sycomorus.
Alan Crozier
She doesn't. She announced one discovery and then posed one
unconnected question.
celia
>some in the form of 'testicles'
Ah, the tubers, I was looking at the
flowers for a doctrine of signatures.
Orchis mascula would appear to be
the one but the Lombardy illustration
looks different.
Celia
celia
Thanks for the link, wish I'd found it earlier.
Despite the differences between the pictures
Sutherige seems to translate as Satirion
and I think this is Dracontea Satirion
the Orchis Mascula.
Celia
Alan Crozier
To confuse matters more, the Old English word sutherige is very
close to sætherige/saturege, borrowed from Latin satureia and
retaining the meaning of that word, savory.
Alan
Andrew Dalby
Translators from classical Latin sometimes confuse satureia 'savory'
and satyrion 'salep'. Hence the implication in certain translations
that savory is an aphrodisiac, which, I believe, it usually proves not
to be; by contrast with salep, which certainly retained its aphrodisiac
reputation for a long time, whether deserved or not. Salep is now
usually used (in Turkey and the Balkans) as a hot drink or as a
flavouring in ice cream.
Andrew
celia
Thanks that's helpful but this is listed among
the 'identified' trees and I can't even find a tree
that's remotely close in the Thesaurus that they
appear to have used.
celia
Peter Alaca
> "Peter Alaca" <P.A...@206.nn> wrote in message
> news:43f8bc4d$0$22321$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
>> celia wrote:
> news:1140363952....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>>
>>>> Sicomorus/sycomer
>>>
>>> I've just discovered that 'Sicomorus'
>>> translates as a type of fig!
>>
>> A fig?
>> If it is Mulberry as Alan suggests, then you can
>> choose between Black (or Common) Mulberry
>> /Morus nigra/and White Mulberry /Morus alba/.
>> The Black is the most likely.
>> Best known from monastery and manor gardens,
>> often trimmed against a wall.
>> I love them, if they are ripe.
>
> When they write about the sycomore (as opposed to sycamore) in
> Anglo-Saxon texts it is not an indigenous plant.
Both formes are used for this Ficus,
but only sycamor for sycamor.
> It's a biblical
> reference (Luke 19) to a kind of Middle Eastern fig tree, Ficus
> sycomorus.
Ficus sycomorus
http://tinyurl.com/hjhud
From South Africa to Senegal and the
Arabian Peninsula and Madagascar.
Planted for cultivation in Egypt, Israel
and Syria.
--
p.a.