Bith of Renaissance in Rome not Florence
Simon Pugh
Waldemar Januszczak. He suggests that recent discoveries at the Church
of Santa Cecilia in Trastevere, Rome show that the Renaissance started
in Rome not Florence. Furthermore it wasn't Giotto that started it all
but Pierre Cavilling.
See http://www.sunday-times.co.uk Magazine Section, Saint of Paint.
Or in full (watch wrap):
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/30/stimazmaz02017.h
tml?
Also:
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/cavallin/index.html
--
Simon Pugh
Kim Log
by this and this person?
just a thought
best regards
Kim Log
"Simon Pugh" <Si...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5f6zXCAE...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
Paul J Gans
>Is it possible to claim that such a process "started" in so and so city and
>by this and this person?
>just a thought
>best regards
>Kim Log
And here I thought it started even earlier in northern
France by a still unknown artist named Pierre.
Poor Pierre.
---- Paul J. Gans
Simon Pugh
writes
>Kim Log <kim...@online.no> wrote:
>>Is it possible to claim that such a process "started" in so and so city and
>>by this and this person?
>
>>just a thought
>
>>best regards
>
>>Kim Log
>
>And here I thought it started even earlier in northern
>France by a still unknown artist named Pierre.
>
>Poor Pierre.
>
> ---- Paul J. Gans
>
Cavilling (it was the spell checker that dun it guv)
Below is a quote from the article that gives an idea what it is about:
Until now. For a set of fortuitous art-history discoveries suggests an
embarrassing truth. There is a good chance that Cavallini was one of the
most influential artists there has ever been. If the new finds mean what
they appear to mean, he may have invented the Renaissance. And since
that is held to mark the beginning of art as we know it - of
perspective, of naturalism, recognisable portraiture, convincing anatomy
- then Cavallini may be the real father of modern painting.
To understand what is happening here, we must bite into our Italian
sandwich as deep as 1550, where a determined Rome-basher from Florence
called Giorgio Vasari has just published an astonishingly influential
pack of half-truths called The Lives of the Artists. This was the first
globally influential art-history book. Vasari's Lives told the story of
art as he saw it from his excellent viewpoint at the " The finds mean
the renaissance was invented by Pietro Cavallini"
epicentre of the Renaissance. Because Vasari was a witness to these
events, it was naturally assumed for five centuries that what he wrote
was basically what happened. To this day, the crude thrust of his
argument - that the Renaissance started in Florence in about 1300 with
Giotto, who brought a new naturalism to art, and whose revolution was
progressed by a succession of crucial Florentine artists culminating in
Michelangelo - is accepted as a broad version of the truth. It is this
truth that is being challenged by a new big-bang theory of painting
centred not on Florence, as Vasari insisted, but on Rome, as common
sense dictates.
--
Simon Pugh
Matthew Harley
Paul J Gans wrote:
> >Kim Log
>
> And here I thought it started even earlier in northern
> France by a still unknown artist named Pierre.
Could be.
I believe it may have started in 14th Century Spain (especially Salamanca) or
maybe Avignon in Southern France
(influence of Petrarch and Boccaccio).
The claim made by the Sunday Times is quite silly.
The article in question deals only with painting.
The Renaissance was much wider than that.
Matt Harley
Chris Dickinson
>There is an interesting article in today's Sunday Times magazine
>by Waldemar Januszczak. He suggests that recent discoveries
>at the Church of Santa Cecilia in Trastevere, Rome show that the
>Renaissance started in Rome not Florence. Furthermore it
>wasn't Giotto that started it all but Pierre Cavilling.
You admit to reading the Sunday Times magazine!!! :-)
Hmm ... basic rubbish, I think.
I'm always put off by articles that consist largely of
advertisements for the supposedly stunning revelations of the last
few paragraphs.
***
"... a determined Rome-basher from Florence called Giorgio Vasari
has just published an astonishingly influential pack of
half-truths called The Lives of the Artists .... the crude thrust
of his argument - that the Renaissance started in Florence in
about 1300 with Giotto ... is accepted as a broad version of the
truth."
Hmm, half-truths ...
Vasari doesn't mention the 'Renaissance'.
Started in Florence with Giotto when Giotto's biggest claim to
fame is (supposedly) in Assisi and (definitely) in Padua?
***
"It is this truth that is being challenged by a new big-bang
theory of painting centred not on Florence, as Vasari insisted,
but on Rome, as common sense dictates. "
Why common sense??? Quite the opposite. Florence was to become a
much richer and more sophisticated city than Rome. The latter
didn't really progress until after the return of the Popes from
Avignon.
***
"In a rare display of unity, all Italian art experts are agreed
that the life of St Francis in Assisi is the first great fresco
cycle of the Renaissance. "
The article doesn't mention that non-Italian art historians
(unlike the Italian ones) have traditionally not ascribed the
Assisi frescoes to Giotto, because they are so inferior to the
Padua cycle.
***
Simon Pugh
<ch...@dickinson.uk.net> writes
>Simon Pugh writes:
>
>
>>There is an interesting article in today's Sunday Times magazine
>>by Waldemar Januszczak. He suggests that recent discoveries
>>at the Church of Santa Cecilia in Trastevere, Rome show that the
>>Renaissance started in Rome not Florence. Furthermore it
>>wasn't Giotto that started it all but Pierre Cavilling.
>
>
>You admit to reading the Sunday Times magazine!!! :-)
I didn't used to, but since it's gone up to 1.10 GPB I feel I have to
get my money's worth <g>
>
>Hmm ... basic rubbish, I think.
>
>I'm always put off by articles that consist largely of
>advertisements for the supposedly stunning revelations of the last
>few paragraphs.
me too
So we are left with Pietro Cavallini anticipating Giotto?
I wonder, do you agree with his final paragraph:
As Strinati says, 'It's true that the Renaissance happened differently
and earlier in Rome than we think. It's been misunderstood.' Which I
take to be a carefully phrased medieval scholar's way of saying: 'Watch
this space.'
--
Simon Pugh
Afropea
as the author of the Assisi cycle and predating some of Giotto's innovations.
IMHO they are a lot more interesting than the one mentioned.
It now appears that Giotto may have been heavily influenced by Cavallini. If
you look at the works by Cavallini and then Giotto you may well smack your head
and wonder why no one ever thought of this before now. In fact, Giotto spent
some of his earlier years in Rome where he no doubt saw some of Cavallini's
works.
IMHO the significance of Cavallini being from Rome is that there is a
suggestion of classical influence in the form, something more likely to come
from someone in Rome than from a Florentine (don't even ask me about Niccolo
Pisano!) However, Giotto was not a slavish imitator and certainly added his
own innovations to Cavallini's and these were also noteworthy. However, art
historians tend to credit Giotto with the whole deal and tend to imply that he
sprung from the head of Florence fully formed.
I'm hesitant to call anything or anyone the "start of the Renaissance" because
IMHO the Renaissance is just a continuation of what is referred to as the
Middle Ages. I don't see it as such an abrupt shift. I do blame Vasari (and
the 19th century) for this idea of a "Renaissance".
IMHO Vasari was basically PR agent for Florentine artists yet his words were
taken as gospel for years. There were great works of art and ideas in
Florence, but there were also great works of art and ideas in a lot of other
places at the same time. When I studied art Florence pretty much equaled
Renaissance. More recent books wisely refute this.
As for the Assisi frescoes being superior to Giotto's works at Padua, I
wouldn't say that. They both are great and both are different. Although some
liked to claim the Assisi works were by Giotto "Giotto: The Arena Chapel
Frescoes" edited by James Stubblebine convinced me 20 years ago that Giotto was
not the author at Assisi. I have not trouble accepting that these were by the
workshop of Cavallini under the direction of Cavallini.
If anyone is interested I'll drag some of the better articles over here or
print out the web addresses.
JMHO,
Eve
Simon Pugh
<afr...@aol.com> writes
<snip>
>If anyone is interested I'll drag some of the better articles over here or
>print out the web addresses.
>
>JMHO,
>Eve
Thank you Eve, I would be interested in the URLs of good articles on
this.
Cheers
--
Simon Pugh
William Black
Chris Dickinson <ch...@dickinson.uk.net> wrote in message news:9p812u$j32
> You admit to reading the Sunday Times magazine!!! :-)
>
> Hmm ... basic rubbish, I think.
>
> I'm always put off by articles that consist largely of
> advertisements for the supposedly stunning revelations of the last
> few paragraphs.
Well I think AA Gill is probably the best writer of English in any newspaper
published today.
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
Bryn Fraser
<black_...@hotmail.com> carefully and thoughtfully licked their
quill and wrote the following:
>
>Chris Dickinson <ch...@dickinson.uk.net> wrote in message news:9p812u$j32
>
>> You admit to reading the Sunday Times magazine!!! :-)
>>
>> Hmm ... basic rubbish, I think.
>>
>> I'm always put off by articles that consist largely of
>> advertisements for the supposedly stunning revelations of the last
>> few paragraphs.
>
>Well I think AA Gill is probably the best writer of English in any newspaper
>published today.
OK but have you seen him smile...?
>
>--
>William Black
>------------------
>On time, on budget, or works;
>Pick any two from three
>
>
>
Bryn Fraser
Nothing unreal can exist... Spock
----------------------------------
http://www.finhall.demon.co.uk
Afropea
><afr...@aol.com> writes
><snip>
>>If anyone is interested I'll drag some of the better articles over here
>or
>>print out the web addresses.
>>
>>JMHO,
>>Eve
Simon Pugh writes
>Thank you Eve, I would be interested in the URLs of good articles on
>this.
Google lists over 500 articles on the subject. Here are a few to start you
off!
http://www.linguafranca.com/9805/fn.html
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/highlights/portrait_pietro/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_946000/946648.stm
Be careful when they mention Cavallini as an "obscure" artist. He may not be
known today by the man on the street, but he was a major artist in his own day.
Eve
Simon Pugh
<afr...@aol.com> writes
Thanks Eve, there are hundreds of them and I was interested in your
selection. It looks as though Waldemar Januszczak was quite slow of the
mark getting to this one <g>.
--
Simon Pugh
Afropea
>>Afropea
>>><afr...@aol.com> writes
>>><snip>
>>>>If anyone is interested I'll drag some of the better articles over here
>>>or
>>>>print out the web addresses.
>>>>
>>>>JMHO,
>>>>Eve
>>
>>Simon Pugh writes
>>
>>>Thank you Eve, I would be interested in the URLs of good articles on
>>>this.
>>
>>
>>Google lists over 500 articles on the subject. Here are a few to start
>you
>>off!
>>
>>http://www.linguafranca.com/9805/fn.html
>>
>>http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/highlights/portrait_pietro/
>>
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_946000/946648.stm
>>
>>Be careful when they mention Cavallini as an "obscure" artist. He may
>not be
>>known today by the man on the street, but he was a major artist in his
>own day.
>>
>>Eve
>
>Thanks Eve, there are hundreds of them and I was interested in your
>selection.
To be honest, I didn't read all 500+ or even the first 100. But of from those
indicated at the beginning of my search these seemed pretty informative!
Eve
Vampire Lestat
Renaissance? I looked through, "Alt.history..." and "Soc.history..." to no
avail.
Any help appreciated.
Andrew,
http://www.egroups.com/group/screenwriting
Talent borrows, Genius steals...and Shit copies.
- The Designer's Republic
Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the
seeds you plant. -- Robert Louis Stevenson
Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be
attained through understanding.:-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
We look forward to the time when the Power of Love will
replace the Love of Power. Then will our world know the
blessings of peace. -- Gladstone
David Read
Lestat <vampire...@home.com> writes
>Does anyone know of a NG that deals with specifically the history of the
>Renaissance? I looked through, "Alt.history..." and "Soc.history..." to no
>avail.
>
>Any help appreciated.
Soc.history.early-modern covers from c. 1500 - c. 1800
So you'll be either on or off charter both there and in
soc.history.medieval. Very few people seem to care very much,
particularly since September 11th - except when they do care, when
someone will be sure to let you know.
cheers,
--
David Read
Chris Dickinson
>I wonder, do you agree with his final paragraph:
>As Strinati says, 'It's true that the Renaissance happened
>differently and earlier in Rome than we think. It's been
>misunderstood.' Which I take to be a carefully phrased
>medieval scholar's way of saying: 'Watch this space.'
One of the things that annoyed me about the article was the
author's narrow focus on Vasari and on painting as definers of the
'Renaissance'. The notion of a return to and revival of the
classical arts (rather than just visual art) goes back at least to
Ghiberti and Alberti, a century before Vasari. And Florentine
artists in the meanwhile were obviously aware of a sense of
progression - you only have to look at the 'David' sculptural
theme or at equestrian statues to get the very strongest sense of
that.
Furthermore, the importance of Giotto in the art of painting
wasn't invented by Vasari. Durer, for instance, in the 1520s was
writing of Giotto as something special.
It's always a bit daft to look for beginnings or endings to labels
like the 'Renaissance'. They are just conveniences that we attach
through hindsight (Panovsky 'Renaissance and Renascences in
Western Art' is good at showing how the term 'Renaissance'
developed). It's entirely irrelevant whether a bit of
Renaissance-ish art appears early in Rome or not - the point is
that we use the term 'Renaissance' to describe a climate in which
there is there is rapid progression, lots of participants, plenty
of money available for patronage and a general cultural acceptance
of what is happening. This happened in Florence (and some other
Italian cities) before shifting to Rome.
Chris Dickinson
>Chris Dickinson <ch...@dickinson.uk.net> wrote in message
>news:9p812u$j32
>
>> You admit to reading the Sunday Times magazine!!! :-)
>>
>> Hmm ... basic rubbish, I think.
>>
>> I'm always put off by articles that consist largely of
>> advertisements for the supposedly stunning revelations of the
>>last few paragraphs.
>
>Well I think AA Gill is probably the best writer of English in
>any newspaper published today.
That may be. Though I prefer the wit and style of Matthew
Parris. :-)
Just for the record, my 'basic rubbish' comment wasn't aimed at
the 'Sunday Times' but to the specific article under discussion.
That said, I have never forgiven the newpaper for its disgraceful
and strident denial of the link between HIV and AIDS and for its
denial of the existence of AIDS in Africa. That long-term campaign
did a lot of harm.
Simon Pugh
<ch...@dickinson.uk.net> writes
I certainly agree with you on the Sunday Times' treatment of the AIDS
HIV issue a few years ago - disgraceful.
--
Simon Pugh
Simon Pugh
<ch...@dickinson.uk.net> writes
react as badly to the article as you did although I agree it was
decidedly light weight. Other articles suggested by Eve were better but
there seems to be a lot of material in Italian which I can't read.
I certainly agree that labels are just a convenience and one shouldn't
look for precise beginnings and endings. I think is interesting to look
at connections and influences which is why the Giotto - Cavallini
connection caught my eye. You have probably gathered that my credentials
in art history are zero. <g>
--
Simon Pugh
Vampire Lestat
your post, that NG. Perhaps either it's no longer or else my server no
longer carries it.
Thanks for the help.
Andrew,
http://www.egroups.com/group/screenwriting
Talent borrows, Genius steals...and Shit copies.
- The Designer's Republic
Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the
seeds you plant. -- Robert Louis Stevenson
Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be
attained through understanding.:-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
When I despair, I remember that all through history the way
of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants
and murderers and for a time they seemed invincible but in
the end, they always fall-- think of it, ALWAYS. - Gandhi
"David Read" <da...@dreadful.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eYVawJAi...@dreadful.demon.co.uk...
David Read
Lestat <vampire...@home.com> writes
>I could not locate, even after directing copying and pasting that part of
>your post, that NG. Perhaps either it's no longer or else my server no
>longer carries it.
>
>Thanks for the help.
Sokay. Soc.history.early-modern does still exist, but not all servers
carry it. That is just one of the reasons that traffic there is so light
and, I daresay, it is because the traffic is so light that many servers
don't carry it. A vicious circle. You could access it from Google
newsgroups, if you're that keen to see if you'll get a response, but
s.h.e-m does tend to be stony ground.
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search
cheers,
--
David Read
Vampire Lestat
Andrew,
http://www.egroups.com/group/screenwriting
Talent borrows, Genius steals...and Shit copies.
- The Designer's Republic
Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the
seeds you plant. -- Robert Louis Stevenson
Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be
attained through understanding.:-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
When I despair, I remember that all through history the way
of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants
and murderers and for a time they seemed invincible but in
the end, they always fall-- think of it, ALWAYS. - Gandhi
> Sokay. Soc.history.early-modern does still exist, but not all servers
erilar
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo