TOWTON -- new findings
Earlofw
Thread followers may be interested to hear a report of
a recent experience of mine regarding Towton
battlefield and the debate regarding conditions.
Last monday I was coming down from Murrayfield via
Newcastle along the A1(M) and realized that I was
passing through Elmet, so I pulled off the motorway and
detoured through Tadcaster en route to the battlesite.
The car's dashboard thermometer registered an outside
air temperature of 2 Celcius (at 11 am), and there was
a gale of wind blowing. The cold, wet weather that had
afflicted Edinburgh during the rugby match had come
south overnight and was now causing a short-lived
settlement of wet snow on surrounding fields.
This was Monday, 3rd April, Towton was fought March
29th (Old Style), and so it seemed a perfect opportunity
for me to have a first-hand inspection of the site in
conditions approximating those on the day in which the
battle was fought. I would not describe what I saw as a
"blizzard" or a "snowstorm" and am inclined to think
that conditions in the battle were rather more severe
than those which I experienced, and it was probably a
little colder on the actual day.
The most major difference though was the wind
direction, which was north/ north-easterly during my
visit, not southerly as it must have been during the
battle (recall the reports of Yorkist archers using the
wind to advantage). This has always struck me as a
curious anomaly, because having lived for many years in
the north of England and being interested in amateur
astronomy (and therefore, of necessity, in meteorology)
I can say that southerly winds are comparatively rare
and when they do occur they tend to be warm. Still,
cyclonic storm systems are spiral in form and therefore
associated with wind swings as they pass over, and we
must not overlook the possibility that the local
climate may have altered significantly in 550 years,
and there is little doubt that it was generally colder
at that time.
At any rate, the first thing I noticed is the shape of
the battlefield. It is a wholly exposed dome of land --
shield-shaped would best describe it -- so that neither
of the two extreme wings of the army could have had
visual contact with one another initially. The extremes
of a mile-long front of men might have been visible to a
mounted man in the centre, but without standing in a
ploughed field and using some means of getting the
required height, it is hard to tell. At any rate, as
the armies approached one another they would have been
largely invisible to one another due to the lie of the
land. This was something I had not appreciated.
The second point I would like to notice is the steep
decline which the battlefield makes into the Cock Beck.
There is in places a thirty-degree slope down which any
kind of pursuit would have proved quite lethal. Looking at
a map, even a Pathfinder, does not bring this home.
Later, speaking with the sexton at Saxton church about
Lord Dacre's tomb, I discovered that the weather had
been inclement for three days and wet for two. It had
rained heavily overnight. Which brings me to my third
point: the Beck had risen significantly and was in
spate. It was chocolate brown because it carried a lot
of silt with it and where it comes closest to the road
it had swelled to three or four feet in depth and was
ten to twelve feet across. The nearer bank had a six
foot fall to the water from the road, the water was
three feet or so below the surrounding meadow on the
far side, giving plenty of room for expansion to almost
twice this channel before actually flowing out into
shallow flooding. The centre stream flow rate was
approximately 8 mph. (Making certain assumptions about
the shape of the riverbed would allow a calculation
from this of the force of water, tonnage per minute and
the rate of rise-and-spill over surounding land given
that bodies would eventually block the flow.) I
conjecture that the unobstructed flow was too severe to
permit anyone to wade across, (controlled tests carried
out on dam spillways have shown that a depth of ONE
foot of water given sufficient flow makes walking
impossible on clean concrete.) A floating/swimming man
would probably be able to reach the other side and get
out again without too much difficulty if unimpeded.
Anyone wounded, armoured or exhausted would easily be
carried off and in doing so, and presumably grasping
for help, would constitute a major hazard to others.
The exposed nature of the site would, in my opinion,
have contributed greatly to the supposed general
hypothermia. The particular combination of cold, damp
and wind that I experienced would have been much more
difficult to survive than the far colder but dryer
conditions that one might encounter in, say, a ski
resort, or equivalent. It felt, as they say locally
"raw", and there was no shelter from it. In half an
hour's exposure my modern Barber jacket (oiled cotton)
was soaked through to the lining, and water had
accumulated in the bottom of the patch pockets. I was
very glad to have a warm car nearby and not be forced
to run for my life and then cross a river at the point
of a bill.
S.J Lean
D. Spencer Hines
This the sort of view of the _Hastings_ battlefield that we never
got ---- with respect to terrain, weather and light conditions occurring
in October.
Please note how _factually dense_ Dr. Lean's post is. He is not just
"opining" ---- web-spinning and thumb-sucking.
He does not constantly say, "I think..." or "I believe..." or "I have
always believed that... or "I find it difficult to believe that...."
No, Dr. Lean cites FACTS of what he observed on his visit to the Towton
battlefield.
Pathologists must report FACTS ---- not just airy-fairy speculation and
thumb-sucking.
Now, of course, if you don't believe in FACTS ---- never have and never
will ["Everything is relative to a particular point of view" ---- Race,
Religion, Class, Gender, Economic Circumstances, Sexual Orientation],
such as some errant pogues here --- you make one very sorry excuse for a
Historian.
Exitus Acta Probat.
Fortem Posce Animum.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"General propositions do not decide concrete cases. The decision will
depend on a judgment or intuition more subtle than any articulate major
premise." ---- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. [1841-1935] ----
Lochner vs. New York, 198 U.S. 45, 75 [1905]
D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
Jettison ballast before testing rig in light airs.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
"Earlofw" <ear...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000407052116...@ng-bh1.aol.com...
Paul J Gans
>Thread followers may be interested to hear a report of
>a recent experience of mine regarding Towton
>battlefield and the debate regarding conditions.
[...]
Thank you. That was amazing! It does bring home
the possible conditions at the time of the battle.
The only thing one might add is that the weather
certainly was different then, it was the first part
of the "Little Ice Age" and thus likely to be even
more inclement than the present weather.
----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Mark8899
dead and drowning piling into the crossing. I wanted to steer
clear of that military cliche, but this is one incidence where I
could almost see it happening. Must have been a real mess.
Mark Kent
"We only get what we give."
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Tony Jebson
> Last monday I was coming down from Murrayfield via
> Newcastle along the A1(M) and realized that I was
> passing through Elmet, so I pulled off the motorway and
> detoured through Tadcaster en route to the battlesite.
What was the match like? I forgot about it so I missed it.
(I know England lost).
--- Tony Jebson
A Sale fan in exile
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"General propositions do not decide concrete cases. The decision will
depend on a judgment or intuition more subtle than any articulate major
premise." ---- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. [1841-1935] ----
Lochner vs. New York, 198 U.S. 45, 75 [1905]
D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
Jettison ballast before testing rig in light airs.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
"D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.ballast.yale.edu> wrote in
message news:6XoH4.2251$8v5.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Lucky for us.
| | The car's dashboard thermometer registered an outside
| | air temperature of 2 Celcius (at 11 am), and there was
| | a gale of wind blowing. The cold, wet weather that had
| | afflicted Edinburgh during the rugby match had come
| | south overnight and was now causing a short-lived
| | settlement of wet snow on surrounding fields.
Check.
| | This was Monday, 3rd April, Towton was fought March
| | 29th (Old Style),
So that would be what, 7 April 1461 (New Style) or thereabouts?
| | and so it seemed a perfect opportunity
| | for me to have a first-hand inspection of the site in
| | conditions approximating those on the day in which the
| | battle was fought. I would not describe what I saw as a
| | "blizzard" or a "snowstorm" and am inclined to think
| | that conditions in the battle were rather more severe
| | than those which I experienced, and it was probably a
| | little colder on the actual day.
Check.
| | The most major difference though was the wind
| | direction, which was north/ north-easterly during my
| | visit, not southerly as it must have been during the
| | battle (recall the reports of Yorkist archers using the
| | wind to advantage). This has always struck me as a
| | curious anomaly, because having lived for many years in
| | the north of England and being interested in amateur
| | astronomy (and therefore, of necessity, in meteorology)
| | I can say that southerly winds are comparatively rare
| | and when they do occur they tend to be warm. Still,
| | cyclonic storm systems are spiral in form and therefore
| | associated with wind swings as they pass over, and we
| | must not overlook the possibility that the local
| | climate may have altered significantly in 550 years,
| | and there is little doubt that it was generally colder
| | at that time.
Check.
| | At any rate, the first thing I noticed is the shape of
| | the battlefield. It is a wholly exposed dome of land --
| | shield-shaped would best describe it -- so that neither
| | of the two extreme wings of the army could have had
| | visual contact with one another initially.
This is the sort of FACT that one does not get from reading a
dry-as-dust academic account by a Chaise Longue Warrior Scribbler who
has never really studied the terrain at Towton, walked it in various
seasons, and who does not have enough sense of military science to
understand what he is seeing, even if he did walk it.
The Milk Dud Warrior falls even lower on the evolutionary scale ---- and
commits Pratfall.
| | The extremes
| | of a mile-long front of men might have been visible to a
| | mounted man in the centre, but without standing in a
| | ploughed field and using some means of getting the
| | required height, it is hard to tell.
A salient detail. Please note that Dr. Lean did not make some
half-arsed joke, designed to divert attention, at this point in his
narrative, either.
| | At any rate, as
| | the armies approached one another they would have been
| | largely invisible to one another due to the lie of the
| | land. This was something I had not appreciated.
Indeed. Imagine the limitations on the commanders ---- those "dumb
military men" and "wage slaves."
| | The second point I would like to notice is the steep
| | decline which the battlefield makes into the Cock Beck.
| | There is in places a thirty-degree slope down which any
| | kind of pursuit would have proved quite lethal. Looking at
| | a map, even a Pathfinder, does not bring this home.
30 degrees Aye. And how many folks understand and appreciate a 30
degree grade on foot ---- or mounted?
A few more, I hope.
Pathfinder Maps useless ---- Hmmmmmmm.
| | Later, speaking with the sexton at Saxton church about
| | Lord Dacre's tomb, I discovered that the weather had
| | been inclement for three days and wet for two. It had
| | rained heavily overnight. Which brings me to my third
| | point: the Beck had risen significantly and was in
| | spate. It was chocolate brown because it carried a lot
| | of silt with it and where it comes closest to the road
| | it had swelled to three or four feet in depth and was
| | ten to twelve feet across. The nearer bank had a six
| | foot fall to the water from the road, the water was
| | three feet or so below the surrounding meadow on the
| | far side, giving plenty of room for expansion to almost
| | twice this channel before actually flowing out into
| | shallow flooding.
A nice sense of significant, telling, detail. Do you see the
pathologist at work here, Gentle Readers?
Pathologist = Medical Detective.
Historian = Historical Detective.
N'est-ce pas?
Well put, Watson.
| | The centre stream flow rate was
| | approximately 8 mph. (Making certain assumptions about
| | the shape of the riverbed would allow a calculation
| | from this of the force of water, tonnage per minute and
| | the rate of rise-and-spill over surounding land given
| | that bodies would eventually block the flow.) I
Check.
| | conjecture that the unobstructed flow was too severe to
| | permit anyone to wade across, (controlled tests carried
| | out on dam spillways have shown that a depth of ONE
| | foot of water given sufficient flow makes walking
| | impossible on clean concrete.)
I reckon many pogues and poguettes here were not aware of that factoid
emerging as a FACT.
| | A floating/swimming man
| | would probably be able to reach the other side and get
| | out again without too much difficulty if unimpeded.
| | Anyone wounded, armoured or exhausted would easily be
| | carried off and in doing so, and presumably grasping
| | for help, would constitute a major hazard to others.
Damn Straight.
| | The exposed nature of the site would, in my opinion,
| | have contributed greatly to the supposed general
| | hypothermia. The particular combination of cold, damp
| | and wind that I experienced would have been much more
| | difficult to survive than the far colder but dryer
| | conditions that one might encounter in, say, a ski
| | resort, or equivalent.
Check.
| | It felt, as they say locally
| | "raw", and there was no shelter from it. In half an
| | hour's exposure my modern Barber jacket (oiled cotton)
| | was soaked through to the lining, and water had
| | accumulated in the bottom of the patch pockets. I was
| | very glad to have a warm car nearby and not be forced
| | to run for my life and then cross a river at the point
| | of a bill.
| |
| | S.J Lean
The personal details here at the close give an air of authenticity to
the entire account. This has not just been cooked up by Alison Weir in
a warm, cozy, London flat ---- and then fleshed out with a "detailed
bibliography" to fool the gullible proles.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Fortem Posce Animum
Lblanch001
Mark Kent writes, re S. J Lane's description of Towton:
>Very well put. I wonder if others were able to cross due to the
>dead and drowning piling into the crossing. I wanted to steer
>clear of that military cliche, but this is one incidence where I
>could almost see it happening. Must have been a real mess.
>
I'll be putting up a copy of that excellent description of Towton on the small
page of images I've collected at
http://www.rblanchard.com/towton/
...with permission, of course...
I wish that Roy and I had been better able to capture on camera just how
frighteningly steep that drop-off to the Cock Beck *is*. Lane's descriptions
make it easier to interpret the photos that I do have. Ours were taken on a
July afternoon, but Mary Fisher's photos of the Cock Beck in flood were taken
closer to the date of the battle. I think they give a good picture of a
fast-flowing stream some three or four feet deep and more than a few feet
across.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lblan...@aol.com (or lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu)
http://www.r3.org/
(see http://orb.rhodes.edu/ to reach major medieval gateway sites)
Alex Milman
Paul J Gans wrote in message <8clikj$cg1$2...@news.panix.com>...
>Earlofw <ear...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Thread followers may be interested to hear a report of
>>a recent experience of mine regarding Towton
>>battlefield and the debate regarding conditions.
>
>
>Thank you. That was amazing!
Quite agree. It's amazing how anyone (including the locals) can
survive such a weather! Or to swim in the river 3 feet deep. This
is definitely much more difficult than to walk: your hands will be
scratching the river bed, which is quite unpleasant.
BTW, it looks like we already gather a whole statistics regarding
a medieval swimming (mostly thanks to you :-) ): usually happened
in some shallow places and was quite deadly, especially for the
viewers (most of them died from laughing). :-)
> It does bring home
>the possible conditions at the time of the battle.
You mean availability of the warm car nearby? Or a concrete
river bed? :-)
Or that you are trying to recreate the battle conditions at your
home by turning the heat off and overflowing the toilet? :-)
>The only thing one might add is that the weather
>certainly was different then, it was the first part
>of the "Little Ice Age"
And England is the second name for Antarctics... Still can't
figure out how locals can survive all this weather and food.
Probably an excellent beer has something to do with this
phenomena.
>and thus likely to be even
>more inclement than the present weather.
Sure. Air temperature 2 Celcius sounds absolutely deadly to me.
BTW, are you sure that you did not mix it with a Kelvin scale
(the great scientists like you are often absentminded)? :-)
D. Spencer Hines
The man's name is Lean, not Lane, Mrs. Doubtfire.
Dr. S. J. Lean.
Remember:
Measure thrice, cut once.
Edit carefully, check and confirm your facts, only then post.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"General propositions do not decide concrete cases. The decision will
depend on a judgment or intuition more subtle than any articulate major
premise." ---- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. [1841-1935] ----
Lochner vs. New York, 198 U.S. 45, 75 [1905]
D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
Jettison ballast before testing rig in light airs.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
"Lblanch001" <lblan...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000408093027...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
Simon Pugh
writes
>
>Paul J Gans wrote in message <8clikj$cg1$2...@news.panix.com>...
>>Earlofw <ear...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>a recent experience of mine regarding Towton
>>>battlefield and the debate regarding conditions.
>>
dramatically, with some fabrics you might as well be naked. Add wind
chill and exhaustion to this and the above conditions can be lethal as a
number of young people on Outward Bound courses in the i970s found out.
--
Simon Pugh
Alex Milman
Simon Pugh wrote in message <7WYj1CAV...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk>...
>In article <8cnj1u$63p$1...@news.gte.com>, Alex Milman <am...@gte.com>
>writes
>>
>>Paul J Gans wrote in message <8clikj$cg1$2...@news.panix.com>...
>>>Earlofw <ear...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>a recent experience of mine regarding Towton
>>>>battlefield and the debate regarding conditions.
>>>
That's why certain cultures developed thing called "winter clothes".
> Add wind
>chill and exhaustion to this and the above conditions can be lethal
Yes, they can be. But temperature in the range +2C, even with the
wind and snow (actually, not too much of a snow at this temperature)
is not a worst case scenario, if people are dressed properly. There
could be some losses due to the weather factor but the question is how
many.
Fighting in the winter (which involves much lower temperatures and
snow) was not limited to the battle at Towton. It was quite common
even in the places, which are much colder than England.
Mongols conquered Russia (which is a little bit more than a
single battle) under much worse weather (at least much colder).
>as a
>number of young people on Outward Bound courses in the i970s found out.
With the same success you may say that a crowd can be quite lethal
under any weather conditions and without an exhaustion factor. Quite
a few people had been killed over the ages when a big crowd panicked.
Especially, if this happened on a uneven ground. I can name at least two
such ocassions (one late XIX and one mid XX) with the massive deaths tolls.
Can we say that a crowd is automatically deadly for its memberss? <g>
So the fact that some people died from a bad weather does not prove
anything. Some people are dying from the heatstroke. Does this mean
that all battles in the hot climate would automatically include a high
percentage of the fighters dying from the same reason?
Simon Pugh
writes
>
>Simon Pugh wrote in message <7WYj1CAV...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk>...
>>In article <8cnj1u$63p$1...@news.gte.com>, Alex Milman <am...@gte.com>
>>writes
>>>
>>>Paul J Gans wrote in message <8clikj$cg1$2...@news.panix.com>...
>>>>Earlofw <ear...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>a recent experience of mine regarding Towton
>>>>>battlefield and the debate regarding conditions.
>>>>
survive and fight in far worse conditions that this. I would certainly
not try to argue that the bad weather on the day was the major cause of
the high casualties at Towton.
You have raised an interesting point about clothing. What type of
clothing would soldiers have been wearing at this time, could it keep
them dry in the conditions at Towton and was it wind proof. Would they
have been wearing winter clothing in late March?
--
Simon Pugh
D. Spencer Hines
| survive and fight in far worse conditions that this. I would certainly
| not try to argue that the bad weather on the day was the major cause
| of the high casualties at Towton.
You are ignoring the clear and salient physiological points that have
been made by Dr. Lean, in several posts, over the past six months or so.
You probably do not remember the earlier posts.
Why are you so damned stupid? Did you have to work at it, or did you
just grow up this way?
Are you unable to read and understand a few short paragraphs written in
clear, unambiguous English?
| You have raised an interesting point about clothing. What type of
| clothing would soldiers have been wearing at this time, could it keep
| them dry in the conditions at Towton and was it wind proof. Would
| they have been wearing winter clothing in late March?
|
| --
| Simon Pugh
Do you think they had modern fabrics at Towton, which had been treated
to resist the penetration of liquids?
Ski jackets from L. L. Bean perhaps? London Fog raincoats?
You are simply proving yourself to be uninformed, persistently arrogant
and clueless.
Listen to what the pathologist is telling you, fool.
Did you absorb the comment about the Outward Bound casualties in the
1970's? Or did that fact completely evade your meagre understanding of
Reality?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Black care rarely sits behind a rider whose pace is fast enough." --
Theodore Roosevelt (1888)
Simon Pugh
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.ballast.yale.edu> writes
>| You absolutely right that people wearing appropriate clothing can
>| survive and fight in far worse conditions that this. I would certainly
>| not try to argue that the bad weather on the day was the major cause
>| of the high casualties at Towton.
>
>You are ignoring the clear and salient physiological points that have
>been made by Dr. Lean, in several posts, over the past six months or so.
>You probably do not remember the earlier posts.
>
>Why are you so damned stupid? Did you have to work at it, or did you
>just grow up this way?
>
>Are you unable to read and understand a few short paragraphs written in
>clear, unambiguous English?
>
>| You have raised an interesting point about clothing. What type of
>| clothing would soldiers have been wearing at this time, could it keep
>| them dry in the conditions at Towton and was it wind proof. Would
>| they have been wearing winter clothing in late March?
>|
>| --
>| Simon Pugh
>
>Do you think they had modern fabrics at Towton, which had been treated
>to resist the penetration of liquids?
>
>Ski jackets from L. L. Bean perhaps? London Fog raincoats?
>
>You are simply proving yourself to be uninformed, persistently arrogant
>and clueless.
>
>Listen to what the pathologist is telling you, fool.
I have to confess to being somewhat mystified by this post as I was the
one who raised the point about the young people who lost their lives
in conditions not dissimilar to those at Towton. :)
Not knowing much about military matters, I would like to know about the
clothing worn by ordinary soldiers at the time. How effective would it
have been at protecting them against the weather?
>
>Did you absorb the comment about the Outward Bound casualties in the
>1970's? Or did that fact completely evade your meagre understanding of
>Reality?
>--
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>"Black care rarely sits behind a rider whose pace is fast enough." --
>Theodore Roosevelt (1888)
>
>D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
>
>Jettison ballast before testing rig in light airs.
>
>All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
>author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
>attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
>given, in writing.
>
>
--
Simon Pugh
Paul J Gans
>In article <8cqekg$7tt$1...@news.gte.com>, Alex Milman <am...@gte.com>
>writes
>>
>>Simon Pugh wrote in message <7WYj1CAV...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk>...
>>>In article <8cnj1u$63p$1...@news.gte.com>, Alex Milman <am...@gte.com>
>>>writes
>>>>
>>>>Paul J Gans wrote in message <8clikj$cg1$2...@news.panix.com>...
>>>>>Earlofw <ear...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>a recent experience of mine regarding Towton
>>>>>>battlefield and the debate regarding conditions.
>>>>>
>survive and fight in far worse conditions that this. I would certainly
>not try to argue that the bad weather on the day was the major cause of
>the high casualties at Towton.
>You have raised an interesting point about clothing. What type of
>clothing would soldiers have been wearing at this time, could it keep
>them dry in the conditions at Towton and was it wind proof. Would they
>have been wearing winter clothing in late March?
Not unlikely. We've just had a six or seven hour snowstorm
in New York. The temperature dropped down to 0C for a few
hours.
Back then, the climate was substantially worse than it is now.
The "Little Ice Age" had already started and, according to
what records I've seen, the decline in average temperatures
was quite rapid. That, of course, proves nothing about this
particular day, but it is likely that folks would not have
quite put away their winter gear in late March.
IIRC when I was in London two or three years ago in mid-March,
there were a few very chilly days -- though some flowers were
already up and out.
As for clothing, I suspect that armor is a rather chilly
thing to wear... ;-) Given any reasonable padding underneath
I can see it cooling down to freezing or thereabouts fairly
quickly. So I'd imaging that a surcoat or something was
standard issue -- not that there was standard issue then.
Paul J Gans
>In article <MD5I4.5958$YB4.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.ballast.yale.edu> writes
>>| survive and fight in far worse conditions that this. I would certainly
>>| not try to argue that the bad weather on the day was the major cause
>>| of the high casualties at Towton.
>>
>>been made by Dr. Lean, in several posts, over the past six months or so.
>>You probably do not remember the earlier posts.
>>
>>Why are you so damned stupid? Did you have to work at it, or did you
>>just grow up this way?
>>
>>Are you unable to read and understand a few short paragraphs written in
>>clear, unambiguous English?
>>
>>| clothing would soldiers have been wearing at this time, could it keep
>>| them dry in the conditions at Towton and was it wind proof. Would
>>| they have been wearing winter clothing in late March?
>>|
Why do you bother to reply to him? I see that he's
being his usually nasty self, filled with anger at
anyone he happens to take a dislike to on any given
day.
I suspect his pique is due to his inability to get
any sort of response from anyone. He's long since
found out that his substantive posts don't seem to
impress anyone. But humans being humans, they *do*
respond to insults, especially those totally undeserved.
Don't let his projected inadequacy bother you. He's
doubtless more worried about his own ignorance than
anyone else's.
You've done nothing to merit this sort of treatment.
----- Paul J. Gans
David Brewer
> Simon Pugh <si...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >You absolutely right that people wearing appropriate clothing can
> >survive and fight in far worse conditions that this. I would certainly
> >not try to argue that the bad weather on the day was the major cause of
> >the high casualties at Towton.
I think the subject at hand was not so much "bad weather" as
"immersion in the cold water of the Cock Beck in spate". I doubt
very much whether contemporary peoples made a habit of swimming,
fully clothed, in icy water, before running about, soaked through,
in a snowstorm, so it seems unlikely than any medieval clothing
had been designed to survive this.
> >You have raised an interesting point about clothing. What type of
> >clothing would soldiers have been wearing at this time, could it keep
> >them dry in the conditions at Towton and was it wind proof. Would they
> >have been wearing winter clothing in late March?
>
> Not unlikely. We've just had a six or seven hour snowstorm
> in New York. The temperature dropped down to 0C for a few
> hours.
I would expect all English adult men to own some sort of long,
thick woollen coat. In pretty much all weathers, throughout Western
Europe, male clothing consisted of a basic minimum of linen shirt
and under-pants-equivalent, tight-fitting wool doublet and hose,
a woolen coat, gown or other outer garment, and a woolen hat,
exceptions from general common decency being made (it would seem
from illustrations) only for hard physical labour. A most common
form of hat at the time doubled, perculiarly, as a hood. Boots
were, of course, made of leather.
A proportion, at least, of the soldiers would have coats provided
as livery. Most would wear *very* thick fabric body armour.
> Back then, the climate was substantially worse than it is now.
> The "Little Ice Age" had already started and, according to
> what records I've seen, the decline in average temperatures
> was quite rapid.
I have often seen the "Little Ice Age" described as a canard.
> That, of course, proves nothing about this
> particular day, but it is likely that folks would not have
> quite put away their winter gear in late March.
...particularly if they were soldiers who expected to sleep in
tents or, possibly, outdoors with no cover. Even in early summer,
sleeping in under canvas in Northern England can be bloody cold.
> IIRC when I was in London two or three years ago in mid-March,
> there were a few very chilly days -- though some flowers were
> already up and out.
Within the last week here in the UK it has been snowing. I've seen
many more White Easters in my lifetime than White Christmases.
> As for clothing, I suspect that armor is a rather chilly
> thing to wear... ;-)
Really...? We seem to have discussed overheating so many times on
shm.
> Given any reasonable padding underneath
> I can see it cooling down to freezing or thereabouts fairly
> quickly. So I'd imaging that a surcoat or something was
> standard issue -- not that there was standard issue then.
Paul, your generic understanding of medieval Western Europe serves
you poorly.
Padding *is* armour.
The unmetallic "jack", an armour made from stuffed or layered
fabric was the most commonly worn armour among the English. See,
for example, Dominic Mancini's description of the usurpacious
Gloucester's soldiers in 1483. (Quoting from memory) "In summer
[tunics stuffed with tow] are lighter and in winter more
servicable than iron."
--
David Brewer
"It is foolishness and endless trouble to cast a stone at every
dog that barks at you." - George Silver, gentleman, c.1600
Tim O'Neill
<ga...@panix.com> wrote:
>David Brewer <da...@westmore.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <8cqs3e$stc$2...@news.panix.com> ga...@panix.com "Paul
>>J Gans" writes:
>>>That, of course, proves nothing about this
>>>particular day, but it is likely that folks would not have
>>>quite put away their winter gear in late March.
>
>>...particularly if they were soldiers who expected to sleep in
>>tents or, possibly, outdoors with no cover. Even in early
>>summer, sleeping in under canvas in Northern England can be
>>bloody cold.
>
>Right.
It's likely they would have been quite warmly dressed by modern
standards. One thing Australian re-enactors have to cope with
while wearing accurate reconstructions of northern European
medeival clothing is the fact that they get so bloody hot. I've
worn such gear in the rather more European-style winters of
southern Tasmania and found it to be practical and comfortable
cold weather gear. And the liripipe hood/hat that Simon
mentions is the most practical and effective piece of headgear
for cold weather I've come across yet.
[snip]
>>> As for clothing, I suspect that armor is a rather chilly
>>> thing to wear... ;-)
>
>>Really...? We seem to have discussed overheating so many times
>>on shm.
>
>Not in the winter unless the men are undergoing strenuous
>exercise and even then, with a cold wind, I doubt that the
>iron would be anything but freezing cold.
What sort of idiot would be wearing their armour next to their
skin!!? Having worn armour for an entire day during a snow
storm I can attest that it was the *only* time I haven't felt
hot and sweaty in armour, and one of the times I've been toasty
warm in snow and high winds. By the end of the day my handmade
shoes were soaked and my feet got cold, but the rest of the time
I was quite warm, even when just standing around. Armour in the
Towton period was worn with a padded arming doublet, with
padding and thick hose on the legs under the leg harness. As
well as having clothing designed to keep them warm, the more
lightly armoured troops would still have worn (warm) padding.
Of course, how warm anyone would have been after being dunked in
the stream is entirely another matter.
Tim O'Neill
Tasmanian Devil
Tim O'Neill
O'Neill <scathaN...@bigpond.com.invalid> wrote:
>And the liripipe hood/hat that Simon
>mentions is the most practical and effective piece of headgear
>for cold weather I've come across yet.
Sorry - that was David Brewer, not Simon.
D. Spencer Hines
schlockmeister, who obviously has not been following the matter of
casualties at the Battle of Towton very closely.
He never did give us that quotation and citation proving that ALL of
King Henry V's troops rode on horseback from Harfleur to Agincourt in
October 1415, did he? Neither will he have the common decency to
withdraw the mindless assertion.
That's because:
1. He simply can't bring himself to admit publicly that he is grossly
in error.
2. He is a fraud and a charlatan, who fills young skulls full of mush
at New York University.
Yes, Gentle Readers, it's no more complex than that.
Me ke aloha pumehana,
Paul J Gans
>In article <8cqs3e$stc$2...@news.panix.com> ga...@panix.com "Paul J Gans" writes:
>> Simon Pugh <si...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >You absolutely right that people wearing appropriate clothing can
>> >survive and fight in far worse conditions that this. I would certainly
>> >not try to argue that the bad weather on the day was the major cause of
>> >the high casualties at Towton.
>I think the subject at hand was not so much "bad weather" as
>"immersion in the cold water of the Cock Beck in spate". I doubt
>very much whether contemporary peoples made a habit of swimming,
>fully clothed, in icy water, before running about, soaked through,
>in a snowstorm, so it seems unlikely than any medieval clothing
>had been designed to survive this.
>> >You have raised an interesting point about clothing. What type of
>> >clothing would soldiers have been wearing at this time, could it keep
>> >them dry in the conditions at Towton and was it wind proof. Would they
>> >have been wearing winter clothing in late March?
>>
>> Not unlikely. We've just had a six or seven hour snowstorm
>> in New York. The temperature dropped down to 0C for a few
>> hours.
>I would expect all English adult men to own some sort of long,
>thick woollen coat. In pretty much all weathers, throughout Western
>Europe, male clothing consisted of a basic minimum of linen shirt
>and under-pants-equivalent, tight-fitting wool doublet and hose,
>a woolen coat, gown or other outer garment, and a woolen hat,
>exceptions from general common decency being made (it would seem
>from illustrations) only for hard physical labour. A most common
>form of hat at the time doubled, perculiarly, as a hood. Boots
>were, of course, made of leather.
>A proportion, at least, of the soldiers would have coats provided
>as livery. Most would wear *very* thick fabric body armour.
>> Back then, the climate was substantially worse than it is now.
>> The "Little Ice Age" had already started and, according to
>> what records I've seen, the decline in average temperatures
>> was quite rapid.
>I have often seen the "Little Ice Age" described as a canard.
It isn't actually. It shows up very clearly in terms of
mountain glacial advances and in tree-ring data. Pollen
analysis (about which I know less) evidently also shows
a southward march of cold-adapted plant species. Climatological
data (which I just happen to have at hand in a text by Graedel
and Crutzen) has a graph showing a precipitate decline from
about 1300-1350 on with a minimum about 1475 or so. The
drop in global temperature was almost 1 degree C, which is,
as these things go, rather enormous. The temperature then
declined again until about 1700 after which it began a
slow rise until just after 1900 when it began to rise
much more rapidly. For comparison the global temperature
rise that has everyone talking about "global warming" has
been about half a degree.
The text includes a picture of a well-known painting by
Peter Brueghel the Younger called "Winter Landscape" showing
folks ice-skating on the canals of Holland. They evidently
froze over regularly from about 1350 on. (The painting is
dated 1601) but now almost never do. Our present temperature
(globally speaking) is about what it was in 1300-1350, just
at the start of the rapid decline.
So yes, there was a little ice age.
>> That, of course, proves nothing about this
>> particular day, but it is likely that folks would not have
>> quite put away their winter gear in late March.
>...particularly if they were soldiers who expected to sleep in
>tents or, possibly, outdoors with no cover. Even in early summer,
>sleeping in under canvas in Northern England can be bloody cold.
Right.
>> IIRC when I was in London two or three years ago in mid-March,
>> there were a few very chilly days -- though some flowers were
>> already up and out.
>Within the last week here in the UK it has been snowing. I've seen
>many more White Easters in my lifetime than White Christmases.
Well, as I noted, it snowed today in New York and *that* is
unusual (though not unknown) at this time of year.
>> As for clothing, I suspect that armor is a rather chilly
>> thing to wear... ;-)
>Really...? We seem to have discussed overheating so many times on
>shm.
Not in the winter unless the men are undergoing strenuous
exercise and even then, with a cold wind, I doubt that the
iron would be anything but freezing cold.
>> Given any reasonable padding underneath
>> I can see it cooling down to freezing or thereabouts fairly
>> quickly. So I'd imaging that a surcoat or something was
>> standard issue -- not that there was standard issue then.
>Paul, your generic understanding of medieval Western Europe serves
>you poorly.
>Padding *is* armour.
>The unmetallic "jack", an armour made from stuffed or layered
>fabric was the most commonly worn armour among the English. See,
>for example, Dominic Mancini's description of the usurpacious
>Gloucester's soldiers in 1483. (Quoting from memory) "In summer
>[tunics stuffed with tow] are lighter and in winter more
>servicable than iron."
Be that as it may be, I was, of course, using the term
"armor" in an obviously metallic sense. Surely you were
not confused. If so, I apologize.
Frank Martin
"Tim O'Neill" <scathaN...@bigpond.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0db8c4ce...@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com...
> In article <8crefl$5g3$1...@news.panix.com>, Paul J Gans
> <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
> >David Brewer <da...@westmore.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>In article <8cqs3e$stc$2...@news.panix.com> ga...@panix.com "Paul
> >>J Gans" writes:
>
> >>>That, of course, proves nothing about this
> >>>particular day, but it is likely that folks would not have
> >>>quite put away their winter gear in late March.
> >
> >>...particularly if they were soldiers who expected to sleep in
> >>tents or, possibly, outdoors with no cover. Even in early
> >>summer, sleeping in under canvas in Northern England can be
> >>bloody cold.
> >
> >Right.
>
> It's likely they would have been quite warmly dressed by modern
> standards. One thing Australian re-enactors have to cope with
> while wearing accurate reconstructions of northern European
> medeival clothing is the fact that they get so bloody hot. I've
> worn such gear in the rather more European-style winters of
> southern Tasmania and found it to be practical and comfortable
> cold weather gear. And the liripipe hood/hat that Simon
> mentions is the most practical and effective piece of headgear
> for cold weather I've come across yet.
>
> [snip]
>
> >>> As for clothing, I suspect that armor is a rather chilly
> >>> thing to wear... ;-)
> >
> >>Really...? We seem to have discussed overheating so many times
> >>on shm.
> >
> >Not in the winter unless the men are undergoing strenuous
> >exercise and even then, with a cold wind, I doubt that the
> >iron would be anything but freezing cold.
>
> What sort of idiot would be wearing their armour next to their
> skin!!? Having worn armour for an entire day during a snow
> storm I can attest that it was the *only* time I haven't felt
> hot and sweaty in armour, and one of the times I've been toasty
> warm in snow and high winds. By the end of the day my handmade
> shoes were soaked and my feet got cold, but the rest of the time
> I was quite warm, even when just standing around. Armour in the
> Towton period was worn with a padded arming doublet, with
> padding and thick hose on the legs under the leg harness. As
> well as having clothing designed to keep them warm, the more
> lightly armoured troops would still have worn (warm) padding.
>
> Of course, how warm anyone would have been after being dunked in
> the stream is entirely another matter.
>
Soren Larsen
snip
>It isn't actually. It shows up very clearly in terms of
>mountain glacial advances and in tree-ring data. Pollen
>analysis (about which I know less) evidently also shows
>a southward march of cold-adapted plant species. Climatological
>data (which I just happen to have at hand in a text by Graedel
>and Crutzen) has a graph showing a precipitate decline from
>about 1300-1350 on with a minimum about 1475 or so. The
>drop in global temperature was almost 1 degree C, which is,
>as these things go, rather enormous. The temperature then
>declined again until about 1700 after which it began a
>slow rise until just after 1900 when it began to rise
>much more rapidly. For comparison the global temperature
>rise that has everyone talking about "global warming" has
>been about half a degree.
>
>The text includes a picture of a well-known painting by
>Peter Brueghel the Younger called "Winter Landscape" showing
>folks ice-skating on the canals of Holland. They evidently
>froze over regularly from about 1350 on. (The painting is
>dated 1601) but now almost never do. Our present temperature
>(globally speaking) is about what it was in 1300-1350, just
>at the start of the rapid decline.
>
>So yes, there was a little ice age.
snip
>
> ----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
>
Was the decline in temperature equally distributed over the globe
or was the difference between the arctic temperature and the
equator temperature greater than it is today.
In the last case I believe storms would tend to be more violent.
cheers
Soren Larsen
Jim Voege
news:0db8c4ce...@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com...
> >>In article <8cqs3e$stc$2...@news.panix.com> ga...@panix.com "Paul
> >>J Gans" writes:
>
> >>>That, of course, proves nothing about this
> >>>particular day, but it is likely that folks would not have
> >>>quite put away their winter gear in late March.
> >
> >>...particularly if they were soldiers who expected to sleep in
> >>tents or, possibly, outdoors with no cover. Even in early
> >>summer, sleeping in under canvas in Northern England can be
> >>bloody cold.
> >
> >Right.
>
> standards. One thing Australian re-enactors have to cope with
> while wearing accurate reconstructions of northern European
> medeival clothing is the fact that they get so bloody hot. I've
> worn such gear in the rather more European-style winters of
> southern Tasmania and found it to be practical and comfortable
> cold weather gear. And the liripipe hood/hat that Simon
> mentions is the most practical and effective piece of headgear
> for cold weather I've come across yet.
>
> [snip]
>
> >>> thing to wear... ;-)
> >
> >>Really...? We seem to have discussed overheating so many times
> >>on shm.
> >
> >Not in the winter unless the men are undergoing strenuous
> >exercise and even then, with a cold wind, I doubt that the
> >iron would be anything but freezing cold.
>
> skin!!? Having worn armour for an entire day during a snow
> storm I can attest that it was the *only* time I haven't felt
> hot and sweaty in armour, and one of the times I've been toasty
> warm in snow and high winds. By the end of the day my handmade
> shoes were soaked and my feet got cold, but the rest of the time
> I was quite warm, even when just standing around. Armour in the
> Towton period was worn with a padded arming doublet, with
> padding and thick hose on the legs under the leg harness. As
> well as having clothing designed to keep them warm, the more
> lightly armoured troops would still have worn (warm) padding.
>
> Of course, how warm anyone would have been after being dunked in
> the stream is entirely another matter.
>
I agree Tim. The combination of armour/padding would provide excellent
insulation under dry conditions which, at any level of exertion would keep
the wearer comfortable. As you point out, the issue really isn't the
temperature. Anyone who lives in a colder climate will tell you that -2 C +
precipitation is much more comfortable than +2 C + precipitation simply
because snow is dry and doesn't permeate the clothing. Metal armour is a
good heat conductor. Put that next to soaked clothing next to bare skin and
you have a potentially deadly combination.
--
Jim Voege
Jim Voege
news:07960d0a...@usw-ex0105-035.remarq.com...> snip
> >It isn't actually. It shows up very clearly in terms of
> >mountain glacial advances and in tree-ring data. Pollen
> >analysis (about which I know less) evidently also shows
> >a southward march of cold-adapted plant species. Climatological
> >data (which I just happen to have at hand in a text by Graedel
> >and Crutzen) has a graph showing a precipitate decline from
> >about 1300-1350 on with a minimum about 1475 or so. The
> >drop in global temperature was almost 1 degree C, which is,
> >as these things go, rather enormous. The temperature then
> >declined again until about 1700 after which it began a
> >slow rise until just after 1900 when it began to rise
> >much more rapidly. For comparison the global temperature
> >rise that has everyone talking about "global warming" has
> >been about half a degree.
> >
> >The text includes a picture of a well-known painting by
> >Peter Brueghel the Younger called "Winter Landscape" showing
> >folks ice-skating on the canals of Holland. They evidently
> >froze over regularly from about 1350 on. (The painting is
> >dated 1601) but now almost never do. Our present temperature
> >(globally speaking) is about what it was in 1300-1350, just
> >at the start of the rapid decline.
> >
> >So yes, there was a little ice age.
> or was the difference between the arctic temperature and the
> equator temperature greater than it is today.
> In the last case I believe storms would tend to be more violent.
>
> cheers
> Soren Larsen
>
Paul, do you know if anyone has measured any change in sea level during the
period in question?
--
Jim Voege
David C. Pugh
Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message news:8crefl$5g3
(the Little Ice Age no canard)
> It isn't actually. It shows up very clearly in terms of
> mountain glacial advances and in tree-ring data
Oh yes. The farmers of Fjærland petitioned the King for a tax relief, on
account of a glacier tongue (from the Jostedalsbreen icefield) had come down
and eaten their land.
They've built not only a Glacier Tourist Experience Centre or some such
thing, but also a road tunnel to another valley, upstream of the terminal
moraine it left then. And although the Alps are melting, _our_ glaciers are
bounding forward again. I'm looking forward to them trying, an a decade or
two, to stop the glacier from eating that tunnel entrance :-)
The rules are different in a maritime climate where the glaciers are
practically on the coast. Global warming --> more rain --> more snow high
up --> glacial advance. But hold on a moment, this means that our glaciers
advance both in the Little Ice Age and in a big warm-up. That's perversity
for you!
David
alex milman
> | You absolutely right that people wearing appropriate clothing can
> | survive and fight in far worse conditions that this. I would certainly
> | not try to argue that the bad weather on the day was the major cause
> | of the high casualties at Towton.
>
> been made by Dr. Lean, in several posts, over the past six months or so.
> You probably do not remember the earlier posts.
Spencer, do you reference to some local doctor who discovered that
an injured finger can be quite deadly and that army can be provisioned by
shooting rabbits? :-)
Or is this somebody else?
[snip]
>
> Do you think they had modern fabrics at Towton, which had been treated
> to resist the penetration of liquids?
IMHO, this would greatly depend on what they had been wearing. For example,
a properly made sheepskin overcoat (or some kind of a jacket) will be quite
adequate (works just fine in Russian winter, which involves a lot of snow,
etc.).
Some heavy cloth would also do well: soldiers had been wearing overcoats for
the last couple centuries and they are quite efficient.
Of course, swimming is another story. You'll definitely get wet (esp. if you
decide to swim
in the river 4 feet deep) but if you run afterwards, it alledgedly (don't
have any personal
experience) helps.
alex milman
Jim Voege <an...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:W1iI4.4610$Bq2....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
> Anyone who lives in a colder climate will tell you that -2 C +
> precipitation is much more comfortable than +2 C + precipitation
I will not tell this but I can be biased. :-)
>simply
> because snow is dry
>and doesn't permeate the clothing.
You have a point there but, as usually, the devil is in the details. :-)
It takes a long time for a wet snow to soak through a thick cloth, like a
good
wool. Besides usually locals who live under this weather are capable to find
some clothing arrangements, which minimize effect of the wettness
("recepies"
vary from region to region)
>Metal armour is a
> good heat conductor.
Most of the combatants probably did not wear too much of an armour...
>Put that next to soaked clothing next to bare skin and
> you have a potentially deadly combination.
It usually helps if you are moving.
Paul J Gans
>In article <8crefl$5g3$1...@news.panix.com>, Paul J Gans
><ga...@panix.com> wrote:
>snip
>>It isn't actually. It shows up very clearly in terms of
>>mountain glacial advances and in tree-ring data. Pollen
>>analysis (about which I know less) evidently also shows
>>a southward march of cold-adapted plant species. Climatological
>>data (which I just happen to have at hand in a text by Graedel
>>and Crutzen) has a graph showing a precipitate decline from
>>about 1300-1350 on with a minimum about 1475 or so. The
>>drop in global temperature was almost 1 degree C, which is,
>>as these things go, rather enormous. The temperature then
>>declined again until about 1700 after which it began a
>>slow rise until just after 1900 when it began to rise
>>much more rapidly. For comparison the global temperature
>>rise that has everyone talking about "global warming" has
>>been about half a degree.
>>
>>The text includes a picture of a well-known painting by
>>Peter Brueghel the Younger called "Winter Landscape" showing
>>folks ice-skating on the canals of Holland. They evidently
>>froze over regularly from about 1350 on. (The painting is
>>dated 1601) but now almost never do. Our present temperature
>>(globally speaking) is about what it was in 1300-1350, just
>>at the start of the rapid decline.
>>
>>So yes, there was a little ice age.
>snip
>>
>> ----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
>>
>Was the decline in temperature equally distributed over the globe
>or was the difference between the arctic temperature and the
>equator temperature greater than it is today.
>In the last case I believe storms would tend to be more violent.
>cheers
>Soren Larsen
Good question. The short answer is that I don't know. The
general weather is often ignored by medievalists, but the
growing cold is mentioned with some frequency.
On the other hand, the answer *is* known, if not exactly
because climate information has been gathered from many
places. I'll try to get my hands on some and see what's
what.
Paul J Gans
>"Soren Larsen" <sohelaN...@post11.tele.dk.invalid> wrote in message
>news:07960d0a...@usw-ex0105-035.remarq.com...
>> >mountain glacial advances and in tree-ring data. Pollen
>> >analysis (about which I know less) evidently also shows
>> >a southward march of cold-adapted plant species. Climatological
>> >data (which I just happen to have at hand in a text by Graedel
>> >and Crutzen) has a graph showing a precipitate decline from
>> >about 1300-1350 on with a minimum about 1475 or so. The
>> >drop in global temperature was almost 1 degree C, which is,
>> >as these things go, rather enormous. The temperature then
>> >declined again until about 1700 after which it began a
>> >slow rise until just after 1900 when it began to rise
>> >much more rapidly. For comparison the global temperature
>> >rise that has everyone talking about "global warming" has
>> >been about half a degree.
>> >
>> >The text includes a picture of a well-known painting by
>> >Peter Brueghel the Younger called "Winter Landscape" showing
>> >folks ice-skating on the canals of Holland. They evidently
>> >froze over regularly from about 1350 on. (The painting is
>> >dated 1601) but now almost never do. Our present temperature
>> >(globally speaking) is about what it was in 1300-1350, just
>> >at the start of the rapid decline.
>> >
>> >So yes, there was a little ice age.
>> or was the difference between the arctic temperature and the
>> equator temperature greater than it is today.
>> In the last case I believe storms would tend to be more violent.
>>
>> cheers
>> Soren Larsen
>>
>Paul, do you know if anyone has measured any change in sea level during the
>period in question?
Changes in sea-level are very difficult, but I'll bet there
are estimates out there.
One thing is known, however: the North Sea coasts have been
rising and relatively rapidly at that. Coupled with silting
there have been vast changes. This is put down to glacial
rebound. The heavy weight of the glaciers having been removed
from the land, it is now rising. How general this is I can't
say.
---- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message news:8crefl$5g3
>(the Little Ice Age no canard)
>> It isn't actually. It shows up very clearly in terms of
>> mountain glacial advances and in tree-ring data
>Oh yes. The farmers of Fjærland petitioned the King for a tax relief, on
>account of a glacier tongue (from the Jostedalsbreen icefield) had come down
>and eaten their land.
>They've built not only a Glacier Tourist Experience Centre or some such
>thing, but also a road tunnel to another valley, upstream of the terminal
>moraine it left then. And although the Alps are melting, _our_ glaciers are
>bounding forward again. I'm looking forward to them trying, an a decade or
>two, to stop the glacier from eating that tunnel entrance :-)
>The rules are different in a maritime climate where the glaciers are
>practically on the coast. Global warming --> more rain --> more snow high
>up --> glacial advance. But hold on a moment, this means that our glaciers
>advance both in the Little Ice Age and in a big warm-up. That's perversity
>for you!
>David
Yes, exactly. Climatology in a period of rapid change in
the composition of the atmosphere (in terms of greenhouse
gases) superimposed on the "normal" large variation in
climate makes any attempt at prediction difficult -- while
also making the explanation of any phenomonon easy. ;-)
----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
PS: Many Alaskan glaciers are retreating at a gallop.
Paul J Gans
It also helps if you shout "On to Antioch" as you plunge
into the water.
Simon Pugh
<an...@sprint.ca> writes
>"Tim O'Neill" <scathaN...@bigpond.com.invalid> wrote in message
>news:0db8c4ce...@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com...
>> <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >David Brewer <da...@westmore.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>In article <8cqs3e$stc$2...@news.panix.com> ga...@panix.com "Paul
>> >>J Gans" writes:
>>
>> >>>That, of course, proves nothing about this
>> >>>particular day, but it is likely that folks would not have
>> >>>quite put away their winter gear in late March.
>> >
>> >>...particularly if they were soldiers who expected to sleep in
>> >>tents or, possibly, outdoors with no cover. Even in early
>> >>summer, sleeping in under canvas in Northern England can be
>> >>bloody cold.
>> >
>> >Right.
>>
>> standards. One thing Australian re-enactors have to cope with
>> while wearing accurate reconstructions of northern European
>> medeival clothing is the fact that they get so bloody hot. I've
>> worn such gear in the rather more European-style winters of
>> southern Tasmania and found it to be practical and comfortable
>> cold weather gear. And the liripipe hood/hat that Simon
>> mentions is the most practical and effective piece of headgear
>> for cold weather I've come across yet.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> >>> thing to wear... ;-)
>> >
>> >>Really...? We seem to have discussed overheating so many times
>> >>on shm.
>> >
>> >Not in the winter unless the men are undergoing strenuous
>> >exercise and even then, with a cold wind, I doubt that the
>> >iron would be anything but freezing cold.
>>
>> skin!!? Having worn armour for an entire day during a snow
>> storm I can attest that it was the *only* time I haven't felt
>> hot and sweaty in armour, and one of the times I've been toasty
>> warm in snow and high winds. By the end of the day my handmade
>> shoes were soaked and my feet got cold, but the rest of the time
>> I was quite warm, even when just standing around. Armour in the
>> Towton period was worn with a padded arming doublet, with
>> padding and thick hose on the legs under the leg harness. As
>> well as having clothing designed to keep them warm, the more
>> lightly armoured troops would still have worn (warm) padding.
>>
>> Of course, how warm anyone would have been after being dunked in
>> the stream is entirely another matter.
>>
>
>I agree Tim. The combination of armour/padding would provide excellent
>insulation under dry conditions which, at any level of exertion would keep
>the wearer comfortable. As you point out, the issue really isn't the
>precipitation is much more comfortable than +2 C + precipitation simply
>because snow is dry and doesn't permeate the clothing. Metal armour is a
>good heat conductor. Put that next to soaked clothing next to bare skin and
>you have a potentially deadly combination.
>
>Jim Voege
>
>
>
>
You have raised an important point Jim, clothing which is soaked through
it much less effective than when dry. However I am not so sure about the
armour. It is a good conductor as you say and worn over thick padding it
will contribute little to the insulation, however plate armour must
provide quite a lot of wind protection so those with it will be better
off than those with out it. Can anyone who has actually worn armour
confirm this?.
I am not sure how we can decide how much of a contribution exposure made
to the deaths at Towton. Presumably those at greatest risk will have
been the incapacitated. Cock Beck will also have made a contribution but
in the end there were large numbers of people trying to kill each other.
--
Simon Pugh
Simon Pugh
writes
<snip>
>Why do you bother to reply to him? I see that he's
>being his usually nasty self, filled with anger at
>anyone he happens to take a dislike to on any given
>day.
>
>I suspect his pique is due to his inability to get
>any sort of response from anyone. He's long since
>found out that his substantive posts don't seem to
>impress anyone. But humans being humans, they *do*
>respond to insults, especially those totally undeserved.
>
>Don't let his projected inadequacy bother you. He's
>doubtless more worried about his own ignorance than
>anyone else's.
>
>You've done nothing to merit this sort of treatment.
>
> ----- Paul J. Gans
I am not such a tender flower that I am upset by this kind
of thing Paul but thanks anyway:)
--
Simon Pugh
D. Spencer Hines
Well put, Mr. Pugh.
I have more respect for you.
"Tender Flowers" are to be despised.
But, I note, we seem to have fewer of them than we once did.
That's Progress.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Black care rarely sits behind a rider whose pace is fast enough." --
Theodore Roosevelt (1888)
D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
Jettison ballast before testing rig in light airs.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
"Simon Pugh" <si...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
| I am not such a tender flower that I am upset by this kind
| of thing ... but thanks anyway:)
| --
| Simon Pugh
D. Spencer Hines
| made to the deaths at Towton. Presumably those at greatest risk will
| have been the incapacitated. Cock Beck will also have made a
| contribution but in the end there were large numbers of people trying
| to kill each other.
|
|
| --
| Simon Pugh
Let's see what S. J. Lean comes up with.
Clearly, his thinking on this is better informed and finer-grained than
most of the idle chatter and thumb-sucking we've seen in this thread.
Facts and controlled, intelligent, modulated, speculation ---- not
Gansian web-spinning and total disrespect, indeed disbelief, in facts.
Physiological and physical facts.
Mark8899
>> good heat conductor.
>
armour...
>
>> you have a potentially deadly combination.
>
I can attest to many years of snow shoveling having lived
outside of Buffalo, New York. We have to get all bundled up for
the elements. Now, of course I don't wear plate, but what I do
wear is similar to what was worn back then in regards to
insulating properties. Back then they wore wool, excellent for
retaining heat and wicking water(sweat) from the body. Modern
clothes try to emulate that effect without having to use wool
(they try to at least). That being said, I would agree that the
plate would make little difference in the temp as it was
seperated from your body by the said clothing. So now, I am
dressed somewhat similar. We always used shovels as my father
did not invest in a snow blower (of course he did when he
retired and I moved away). So a shovel is light, not like a
weapon in itself. However, add to the end of it the weight of
the snow you are shoveling. Now it does become similar to a
weapon. Now imagine that repatative motion over and over. Your
clothing keeps you warm, very warm after shoveling a while. But
you sweat, the cold air bothers your lungs (even in 20-30 F it's
a pain after inhaling it heavily for 30 minutes)and because it
bothers your lungs and you are sweating you do become a bit
thirsty. Now combine that with lifting the shovel over and
over. It wears you out and you become exhausted, your arms
aching.
So, I wouldn't say that the weather bothered them in the cold
sense (as in they were freezing and that affected their ability
to fight). But I would have to say that the elements (cold air,
driving snow, etc.) combined with melee combat would have
exhausted them physically and mentally. And maybe that's what
contributed to the eventual result of the battle.
Mark Kent
"We only get what we give."
Kel Rekuta
>
> >
> >
> You have raised an important point Jim, clothing which is soaked through
> it much less effective than when dry. However I am not so sure about the
> armour. It is a good conductor as you say and worn over thick padding it
> will contribute little to the insulation, however plate armour must
> provide quite a lot of wind protection so those with it will be better
> off than those with out it. Can anyone who has actually worn armour
> confirm this?.
>
> I am not sure how we can decide how much of a contribution exposure made
> to the deaths at Towton. Presumably those at greatest risk will have
> been the incapacitated. Cock Beck will also have made a contribution but
> in the end there were large numbers of people trying to kill each other.
>
> --
> Simon Pugh
At the risk of raising the ire of confirmed SCA haters on this list I will add
this.
Years ago I joined a number of other fighters in various types of armor in a
practice
out of doors in March. The weather was clear, about +5C with little wind. We all
damn near
froze as soon as we stopped moving. The cold air bit your throat when you gulped
it down.
Very invigorating but sweaty wet clothes were really cold, really fast. After
about an hour,
most of the guys packed it in. I had a combination of plate and scale armor then.
I wasn't too
cold but it certainly took the fun out of the afternoon. It was much more like
work than exercise.
I can't imagine how brutal and frustrating it would be to fight in the weather at
Towton that day.
Could someone else enlighten us with an estimate of the percentage of common
troops with
even half plate? I'm inclined to think it was pretty low. I'm rather new to War
of the Roses
studies. My interests have been Anglo Scottish Border warfare.
Kel
D. Spencer Hines
stream, such as Cock Beck, during the day, and then, slightly wounded,
had to survive the night on, or near, the battlefield as best you
could ----exposed to the elements.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Black care rarely sits behind a rider whose pace is fast enough." --
Theodore Roosevelt (1888)
D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
Jettison ballast before testing rig in light airs.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
"Kel Rekuta" <kre...@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:38F271EF...@netcom.ca...
Kilogram22
are your impressions regarding Somerset hiding a force of men in them?
Kilo
alex milman
Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:8csvd2$it6$4...@news.panix.com...
> alex milman <am...@gte.com> wrote:
> >Of course, swimming is another story. You'll definitely get wet (esp. if
you
> >decide to swim
> >in the river 4 feet deep) but if you run afterwards, it alledgedly (don't
> >have any personal
> >experience) helps.
>
>
> It also helps if you shout "On to Antioch" as you plunge
> into the water.
This goes by default. :-)
alex milman
Mark8899 <mkentN...@doc.gov.invalid> wrote in message
news:01bc5654...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com...
> I can attest to many years of snow shoveling having lived
> outside of Buffalo, New York. We have to get all bundled up for
> the elements. Now, of course I don't wear plate, but what I do
> wear is similar to what was worn back then in regards to
> insulating properties. Back then they wore wool, excellent for
> retaining heat and wicking water(sweat) from the body. Modern
> clothes try to emulate that effect without having to use wool
> (they try to at least). That being said, I would agree that the
> plate would make little difference in the temp as it was
> seperated from your body by the said clothing. So now, I am
> dressed somewhat similar. We always used shovels as my father
> did not invest in a snow blower (of course he did when he
> retired and I moved away). So a shovel is light, not like a
> weapon in itself. However, add to the end of it the weight of
> the snow you are shoveling. Now it does become similar to a
> weapon. Now imagine that repatative motion over and over. Your
> clothing keeps you warm, very warm after shoveling a while. But
> you sweat, the cold air bothers your lungs (even in 20-30 F it's
> a pain after inhaling it heavily for 30 minutes)and because it
> bothers your lungs and you are sweating you do become a bit
> thirsty. Now combine that with lifting the shovel over and
> over. It wears you out and you become exhausted, your arms
> aching.
Very good points but there is one "but". Your personal experience
closely corresponds to mine but I saw _professional_ janitors at
work on rather big yards (apartment buildings in Moscow). They had not
been exhausted at all by the time work had been done. And this work
involved not only snow shoveling but an ice cleaning as well. The most
interesting thing is that most of them had been women (and did not look
like female bodybuilders). I suspect that they simply learned how to
make their work efficiently. I also suspect that professional soldiers as
well
would learn how to do their job with a minimal effort. If the most of
non-archers
infantry were pikemen, they probably did not have to make too many
movements,
especially those in the rear. Even those in the front rows hardly had been
fighting (in the sense "each of them") for hours without an interruption:
they
would die from an exhaustion regardless of the weather.
>
> So, I wouldn't say that the weather bothered them in the cold
> sense (as in they were freezing and that affected their ability
> to fight). But I would have to say that the elements (cold air,
> driving snow, etc.) combined with melee combat would have
> exhausted them physically and mentally. And maybe that's what
> contributed to the eventual result of the battle.
IIRC, practically all the losses were supossed to be on one side.
Weather and melee would affect both sides more or less equally.
Pursuit over the half-flooded plane would also involve both sides.
alex milman
[snip]
> I can't imagine how brutal and frustrating it would be to fight in the
weather at
> Towton that day.
If to follow your personal experience, battles in the winter would not be
possible
(with you being half-dead at +5 C). Which somewhat contradicts to the
existing
experience (like Battle at Lake Peipus, weather must be below zero to allow
fighting
on ice)
>
> Could someone else enlighten us with an estimate of the percentage of
common
> troops with
> even half plate?
Probably very low.
Jim Voege
news:8cvhgl$dap$1...@news.gte.com...
But likely quite high amongst the leaders.
--
Jim Voege
Kel Rekuta
> alex milman wrote:
> >
> > Kel Rekuta <kre...@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> > news:38F271EF...@netcom.ca...
> >
> > [snip]
> > > I can't imagine how brutal and frustrating it would be to fight in the
> > > weather at Towton that day.
> >
> > If to follow your personal experience, battles in the winter would not
> > be possible (with you being half-dead at +5 C). Which somewhat
> > contradicts to the existing experience (like Battle at Lake Peipus,
> > weather must be below zero to allow fighting on ice)
>
> I don't think Kel was saying he was close to death, just uncomfortably
> cold. This doesn't square with my experiences of wearing medieval
> armour and clothing in very cold conditions back when I was a re-enactor,
> so I wonder what these SCA people were wearing other than their armour.
> The SCA fighters I have seen often wear street clothes with a cotton
> medieval-style tunic over them and their armour over that. And the
> padding I've seen them wear has been fairly thin compared with a medieval
> arming doublet or a 'jack'. Kel's companions may be different, of course.
>
Yes, a wide variety. Those with little armor fled indoors quickly, those with
full torso armor
had no problem. Very few SCAdians then or now wear proper thick gambesons. It
isn't necessary
to the sport type of combat they practice. Also, most of the events are held
in the worst of summer
heat. This discourages the "recreationist" from attempting "reenacting".
Still, I've seen a few do it.
>
Kel
Murff
Note that the stuff which people can read elsewhere is *not* quoted. Nor
is that which isn't relevant to the point.
In article <8cr57q$2q2$1...@news.panix.com>,
Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> writes:
>
> You've done nothing to merit this sort of treatment.
>
I don't think any of us have done anything to get it *all* quoted.
--
"There are no desperate situations, only desperate people." - Heinz Guderian
Murff... http://www.warlock.org
Tim O'Neill
>
> Kel Rekuta <kre...@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> news:38F271EF...@netcom.ca...
>
> [snip]
> > I can't imagine how brutal and frustrating it would be to fight in the
> > weather at Towton that day.
>
> If to follow your personal experience, battles in the winter would not
> be possible (with you being half-dead at +5 C). Which somewhat
> contradicts to the existing experience (like Battle at Lake Peipus,
> weather must be below zero to allow fighting on ice)
I don't think Kel was saying he was close to death, just uncomfortably
cold. This doesn't square with my experiences of wearing medieval
armour and clothing in very cold conditions back when I was a re-enactor,
so I wonder what these SCA people were wearing other than their armour.
The SCA fighters I have seen often wear street clothes with a cotton
medieval-style tunic over them and their armour over that. And the
padding I've seen them wear has been fairly thin compared with a medieval
arming doublet or a 'jack'. Kel's companions may be different, of course.
> > Could someone else enlighten us with an estimate of the percentage of
> >common troops with even half plate?
>
> Probably very low.
Very probably - not really my period, so I couldn't give an estimate.
The number of men wearing a jack or a brigantine though would have been
much higher. Some jacks were made of up to 30 layers of cloth and
stuffed with wool or tow (or sometimes straw) - sounds pretty warm to
me. Even those who didn't wear any armour were likely to have been
wearing warm clothes, since medieval people lived in a world were
central heating was rare and the best way to keep warm was to put on
some more clothing. Medieval clothing was good at keeping you warm
because that's exactly what most of it was designed to do.
Cheers,
David Brewer
> I can't imagine how brutal and frustrating it would be to fight in the weather at
> Towton that day.
Neither can I, but fight they did. That one side ran away and then
were massacred while routing is extremely normal, if you look at
warfare throughout history.
> Could someone else enlighten us with an estimate of the percentage of common troops with
> even half plate? I'm inclined to think it was pretty low.
I suspect the answer to your question is near-zero. Common
soldiers in countries nearer to the centres of armour production
in Germany and Italy may have worn some plate armour. (Eg. see
Swiss soldiers depicted in the Schilling Chronicles.) Further
afield in England they wore cloth armours, "jacks", most commonly
and less frequently wore mail coats or brigandines, particularly
if these were provided for them. For an example of the latter,
see records of equipment issued to Lord Howard's men in his
household books, IIRC only one man is lent a cuirass, a few are
lent gesserants or haubergeons and most are lent brigandines.
--
David Brewer
"It is foolishness and endless trouble to cast a stone at every
dog that barks at you." - George Silver, gentleman, c.1600
David Brewer
scatha@bloodyspam!.bigpond.com "Tim O'Neill" writes:
> Very probably - not really my period, so I couldn't give an estimate.
> The number of men wearing a jack or a brigantine though would have been
> much higher. Some jacks were made of up to 30 layers of cloth and
> stuffed with wool or tow (or sometimes straw) - sounds pretty warm to
> me.
Egads... thirty layers of cloth and stuffing as well? Thirty
layers of quite fine linen wad together at about an inch thick,
quite without any more stuff.
More jack-facts: a French ordinance calling for jacks to made out
of 25-30 layers of old linen also requires the inclusion of a
stag's skin and a one of the Burgundian Ordinances calls for
archer's jacks to include 2 (IIRC) layers of waxed linen, so these
armours may have been quite waterproof.
David Brewer
> >The unmetallic "jack", an armour made from stuffed or layered
> >fabric was the most commonly worn armour among the English. See,
> >for example, Dominic Mancini's description of the usurpacious
> >Gloucester's soldiers in 1483. (Quoting from memory) "In summer
> >[tunics stuffed with tow] are lighter and in winter more
> >servicable than iron."
>
> Be that as it may be, I was, of course, using the term
> "armor" in an obviously metallic sense. Surely you were
> not confused. If so, I apologize.
It was more a case of being appalled at the irrelevence.
Paul J Gans
>In article <8crefl$5g3$1...@news.panix.com> ga...@panix.com "Paul J Gans" writes:
>> >The unmetallic "jack", an armour made from stuffed or layered
>> >fabric was the most commonly worn armour among the English. See,
>> >for example, Dominic Mancini's description of the usurpacious
>> >Gloucester's soldiers in 1483. (Quoting from memory) "In summer
>> >[tunics stuffed with tow] are lighter and in winter more
>> >servicable than iron."
>>
>> Be that as it may be, I was, of course, using the term
>> "armor" in an obviously metallic sense. Surely you were
>> not confused. If so, I apologize.
>It was more a case of being appalled at the irrelevence.
I am frequently irrelevent. I border on redundant much
of the time. ;-)
My attention was taken by the notion of handling raw metal
in sub-zero (below 32F for Americans) temperatures. This can
be quite brutal. While solid metal makes a very good
windbreak, it is also an excellent heat conductor. When
wet in a fair breeze, skin in quite capable of freezing to it.
------ Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
David Brewer
How thick would you say metal has to be to count as "solid"? (I am
assuming the comparison is not with "liquid" and "gas".)
Still, as Simon^H^H^H^H^H^H Tim pointed out, who would be likely to put skin
next to metal? Plate armour is worn over padding, weapon hafts are
wooden and I am quite sure that the Medievals were aware of sundry
gloving technologies.
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrote:
> I suspect that they simply learned how to
> make their work efficiently
It does help. I work on the railway in the UK and when I first
started I worked freight. I have had to connect the vacuum pipes on
large numbers of freight trains and I can remember how much easier it
got with experience.
Ken Young
ken...@cix.co.uk
Maternity is a matter of fact
Paternity is a matter of opinion
Paul J Gans
I wasn't suggesting that they wore plate next to the skin.
That could cause problems...
Metal would not have to be thick at all. Now that snow
season in New York seems finally to be over, I'll not
be able to pose for pictures showing my fingers frozen
to a lamp post.
Perhaps next winter we can have a "kiss the car door"
contest at various temperatures, the winner to win
an all-expense paid trip to Spitzbergen?
alex milman
Can you pose with your fingers frozen to your freezer? :-)
>
> Perhaps next winter we can have a "kiss the car door"
> contest at various temperatures,
Not sure if it will be productive, unless paint on the car's door is
removed. :-)
Paul J Gans
Plastic coated, unfortunately.
>>
>> Perhaps next winter we can have a "kiss the car door"
>> contest at various temperatures,
>Not sure if it will be productive, unless paint on the car's door is
>removed. :-)
You are very right. Thin bit of insulation makes all the
difference.
D. Spencer Hines
Hmmmmmm, what precisely was it that you wanted quoted?
| Nor is that which isn't relevant to the point.
Cryptic indeed.
Y'all hear?
We'uns have got to quote the non-relevant stuff in our posts from now
on ---- or suffer the fateful consequences. <g>
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Black care rarely sits behind a rider whose pace is fast enough." --
Theodore Roosevelt (1888)
D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
Jettison ballast before testing rig in light airs.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of
the author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and
with an attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise
expressly given, in writing.
"Murff" <mu...@warlock.org> wrote in message
news:8d04rr$3...@news.warlock.org...