Medieval studies degree programs
frykholm
USA to pursue a master's degree in Medieval Studies? And what are good
qualities to look for in such a program. I'm interested in pursuing this a
couple of years from now.
And just for the fun of it, what's the best such program in the English
speaking world, and why?
Sandy
D. Spencer Hines
Why a Master's rather than a Ph.D. --- if you are really serious?
And, what is 'Medieval Studies' --- in your lexicon?
How about 'Medieval History'?
Cheers,
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
frykholm <fryk...@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:MyLV2.15914$95.4...@news2.giganews.com...
Carl Edlund Anderson
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
> Why a Master's rather than a Ph.D. --- if you are really serious?
> And, what is 'Medieval Studies' --- in your lexicon?
Many universities require a MA or MPhil before one can become a PhD.
There are a number of universities which offer MAs/MPhils in "Medieval
Studies". I have even seen a few which offer MAs/MPhils in "Viking
Studies". The idea of such a program is to offer interdisciplinary
instruction so that students from diverse educational backgrounds can
either "bring themselves up to speed" or widen their knowledge before
pursuing a PhD.
Cheers,
Carl
--
Carl Edlund Anderson
Dept. of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, & Celtic
St. John's College, University of Cambridge
mailto:ce...@cus.cam.ac.uk
http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~carl/
CG Luxford
On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, frykholm wrote:
> And just for the fun of it, what's the best such program in the English
> speaking world, and why?
>
Well, I've never actually done a medieval studies course (though
I did do some medieval history topics in my history BA), but I would
have to suggest the Centre for Medieval Studies at the University of
York. Mostly out of loyalty for my alma mater, though It does have a
very good reputation anyway.
It also has a very nice setting in Central York, surrounded by medieval
buildings of every kind.
Chris,
J Prescott
<fryk...@olypen.com> writes
>Any opinions out there (HA!) about the best place in the western or mid-west
>USA to pursue a master's degree in Medieval Studies? And what are good
>qualities to look for in such a program. I'm interested in pursuing this a
>couple of years from now.
>
>speaking world, and why?
University of Bristol, England.
Why? The more money from Johnny Foreigners that it attracts, the chances
are that the fees for _us_ will not increase too much. Then I'll be able
to do it <g>
Joanna
J Prescott
>Why a Master's rather than a Ph.D. --- if you are really serious?
We've been there before. In the UK, at least, it's usual to enroll for a
Masters first. And in any case, if one wants a taught degree in this
particular period because one already has a BA, a Masters is the way to
go.
Joanna
frykholm
D. Spencer Hines wrote in message
<7g8q8j$aep$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>Vide infra.
>
>Why a Master's rather than a Ph.D. --- if you are really serious?
Master's is just the next thing beyond the BA (English) I now have.
>
>And, what is 'Medieval Studies' --- in your lexicon?
>How about 'Medieval History'?
Medieval Studies is a more familiar term to me--I assume (maybe wrongly)
that it includes much in the way of Med. History, and, as other note, a
little more from other disciplines. I'd consider Med. History.
Sandy
frykholm
J Prescott wrote in message <6$eMSeAWS...@lotos-land.demon.co.uk>...
>
>University of Bristol, England.
>
>Why? The more money from Johnny Foreigners that it attracts, the chances
>are that the fees for _us_ will not increase too much. Then I'll be able
>to do it <g>
>
>Joanna
My interest at the moment is in studying Italy & the Mediterranean region.
Do the universities in England focus on medieval Britain? I'd love to dump
some yankee dollars into the university system there--what would it cost me?
:)
Sandy
Matthew Harley
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
>
> Vide infra.
>
> Why a Master's rather than a Ph.D. --- if you are really serious?
Because they have to teach students to read first.
Matt Harley
Matthew Harley
frykholm wrote:
>
> J Prescott wrote in message <6$eMSeAWS...@lotos-land.demon.co.uk>...
> >
> >University of Bristol, England.
> >
> >Why? The more money from Johnny Foreigners that it attracts, the chances
> >are that the fees for _us_ will not increase too much. Then I'll be able
> >to do it <g>
> >
> >Joanna
>
> My interest at the moment is in studying Italy & the Mediterranean region.
> Do the universities in England focus on medieval Britain?
Yes, afraid so (almost exclusively).
> I'd love to dump some yankee dollars into the university system there.
Try Florence, lovely place and it doesn't rain so much, and of course
they speak Italian.
Matt Harley
Brian M. Scott
> 5. When discussing Real Medieval History, give me a Real Medieval
> Historian every time over a 'medievalist.'
> 6. When discussing Real Medieval Art, I'm happy to hear from a Real
> Medieval Historian of Art --- and so forth.
Inconsistent: you should be demanding a Real Medieval Artist.
> > It should also be said that medieval history is just one
> > facit [sic] of the study of the Middle Ages. There's a lot
> > more. [sic] Which is why many schools [sic] offer programs in
> > Medieval Studies as opposed to the much narrower field
> > of Medieval History. [sic]
Three of your four sics are sick.
> Bollocks. It need not be 'much narrower' --- if well-founded,
> endowed, supported and staffed.
What a moronic statement; ceteris paribus of course it must. By
definition Medieval Studies covers a wider range of studies than
Medieval History sensu stricto.
> > The tradition in Medieval Studies programs is to try to
> > generate graduates who are well-rounded in the period.
> The Social Studies approach. History of Medieval Art, Literature,
> Theology and Music courses and their Faculty can dwell peacefully and
> productively in History Departments.
So art historians who room with historians are respectable, but art
historians who room with artists and art critics are Bohemian layabouts
with whom one can only commit social studies.
Brian M. Scott
Eric Berge
> I have even seen a few which offer MAs/MPhils in "Viking
> Studies".
A vocational program, I presume?
Eric Berge
(remove _ for address)
-----------------------------------------
Clay lies still, but blood's a rover
Breath's a ware that will not keep
Up, lad! When the journey's over
There'll be time enough to sleep.
- A.E.Housman, "Reveille"
-----------------------------------------
D. Spencer Hines
1. This is a newsgroup dedicated to Medieval History.
2. I'm in no way suggesting that Art, Music, Theology, Literature,
Technology, Drama, Engineering, Military and Naval Affairs, et. al.,
should not be a part of the curricula offered by a well-founded
university department, or sub-department, of Medieval History.
3. Medieval Studies can degenerate into 'Social Studies for
Grownups' --- without the underpinning of good solid Historical
Methodology and a respect for the Rules of Evidence. We often see
that here on SHM from the Literary Medievalists --- and others.
4. Funding considerations, getting more departments and disciplines
on the band wagon often drive these 'Medieval Studies' programs.
5. When discussing Real Medieval History, give me a Real Medieval
Historian every time over a 'medievalist.'
6. When discussing Real Medieval Art, I'm happy to hear from a Real
Medieval Historian of Art --- and so forth.
7. Accept no cheap substitutes, poseurs, popularizers and chemists
masquerading as 'medievalists' [ill-defined 'experts' of some vague
sort, many of whom are actually just hobbyists] but with no actual
academic training in Medieval History.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Fortem Posce Animum
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:7gajkn$pqa$1...@news.panix.com...
> Carl Edlund Anderson <ce...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >In article <7g8q8j$aep$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "D. Spencer
Hines"
> ><D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
> >> Why a Master's rather than a Ph.D. --- if you are really serious?
> >> And, what is 'Medieval Studies' --- in your lexicon?
>
> > Many universities require a MA or MPhil before one can become
a PhD.
> >There are a number of universities which offer MAs/MPhils in
"Medieval
> >Studies". I have even seen a few which offer MAs/MPhils in "Viking
> >Studies". The idea of such a program is to offer interdisciplinary
> >instruction so that students from diverse educational backgrounds
can
> >either "bring themselves up to speed" or widen their knowledge
before
> >pursuing a PhD.
>
>
> It should also be said that medieval history is just one
> facit [sic] of the study of the Middle Ages. There's a lot
> more. [sic] Which is why many schools [sic] offer programs in
> Medieval Studies as opposed to the much narrower field
> of Medieval History. [sic]
Bollocks. It need not be 'much narrower' --- if well-founded,
endowed, supported and staffed.
>
> The tradition in Medieval Studies programs is to try to
> generate graduates who are well-rounded in the period.
The Social Studies approach. History of Medieval Art, Literature,
Theology and Music courses and their Faculty can dwell peacefully and
productively in History Departments.
> Thus in addition to aquiring [sic] languages relevent [sic] to their
> needs, they also aquire some background in all the other
> needs. [sic???] Medieval History is, by tradtion, [sic] a much more
> narrow area, [sic] focussing only on history proper with little
> attention paid to areas such as art, literature, theology,
> technology, etc., etc.
More bollocks. It's simply not true at many first-rate universities.
The Student will tailor her or his own program and frame
concentrations with a small set of Faculty, including a dissertation
advisor.
Just because New York University MARS [Medieval and Renaissance
Studies] Program may have chosen to pursue this polyglot path, perhaps
for reasons of politics, academic log-rolling and funding does not
make it optimal, or even a model worthy of emulation by first-rate
universities. That is not to say that some universities have indeed
adopted the 'Medieval Studies' compromise --- particularly for
bachelor's and master's level degrees.
What does one do with a Master's Degree in 'Medieval Studies' in the
U.S. and the U.K.?
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Exitus Acta Probat
Paul J Gans
>On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, frykholm wrote:
>> And just for the fun of it, what's the best such program in the English
>> speaking world, and why?
>>
>Well, I've never actually done a medieval studies course (though
>I did do some medieval history topics in my history BA), but I would
>have to suggest the Centre for Medieval Studies at the University of
>York. Mostly out of loyalty for my alma mater, though It does have a
>very good reputation anyway.
>It also has a very nice setting in Central York, surrounded by medieval
>buildings of every kind.
Some built in the 20th century...
(Sorry, couldn't help myself.)
----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Paul J Gans
>In article <7g8q8j$aep$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "D. Spencer Hines"
><D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
>> Why a Master's rather than a Ph.D. --- if you are really serious?
>> And, what is 'Medieval Studies' --- in your lexicon?
> Many universities require a MA or MPhil before one can become a PhD.
>There are a number of universities which offer MAs/MPhils in "Medieval
>Studies". I have even seen a few which offer MAs/MPhils in "Viking
>Studies". The idea of such a program is to offer interdisciplinary
>instruction so that students from diverse educational backgrounds can
>either "bring themselves up to speed" or widen their knowledge before
>pursuing a PhD.
It should also be said that medieval history is just one
facit of the study of the Middle Ages. There's a lot
more. Which is why many schools offer programs in
Medieval Studies as opposed to the much narrower field
of Medieval History.
The tradition in Medieval Studies programs is to try to
generate graduates who are well-rounded in the period.
Thus in addition to aquiring languages relevent to their
needs, they also aquire some background in all the other
needs. Medieval History is, by tradtion, a much more
narrow area, focussing only on history proper with little
attention paid to areas such as art, literature, theology,
technology, etc., etc.
---- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Vance McAlister
degree in Medieval History at a University, rather than requirements for
this ng? As you know, most (if not all) of us here fall under the
ranking of Phd in Medieval History, so that would mean none of us would
be qualified to discuss anything, including yourself. :0) Things would
get awfully quiet around here. Of course, newsgroups are an informal
conversation group, rather than a formal debating group, so the style of
discussion is (and should be) very different than an academic setting.
Wouldn't you agree?
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:7gamlf$bae$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
> > Carl Edlund Anderson <ce...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > >In article <7g8q8j$aep$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "D. Spencer
> Hines"
> > ><D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
> > >> Why a Master's rather than a Ph.D. --- if you are really serious?
> > >> And, what is 'Medieval Studies' --- in your lexicon?
> >
> > > Many universities require a MA or MPhil before one can become
> a PhD.
> > >There are a number of universities which offer MAs/MPhils in
> "Medieval
> > >Studies". I have even seen a few which offer MAs/MPhils in "Viking
> > >Studies". The idea of such a program is to offer interdisciplinary
> > >instruction so that students from diverse educational backgrounds
> can
> > >either "bring themselves up to speed" or widen their knowledge
> before
> > >pursuing a PhD.
> >
> >
> > It should also be said that medieval history is just one
> > facit [sic] of the study of the Middle Ages. There's a lot
> > more. [sic] Which is why many schools [sic] offer programs in
> > Medieval Studies as opposed to the much narrower field
> > of Medieval History. [sic]
>
> Bollocks. It need not be 'much narrower' --- if well-founded,
> endowed, supported and staffed.
>
> >
> > The tradition in Medieval Studies programs is to try to
> > generate graduates who are well-rounded in the period.
>
> The Social Studies approach. History of Medieval Art, Literature,
> Theology and Music courses and their Faculty can dwell peacefully and
> productively in History Departments.
>
> > Thus in addition to aquiring [sic] languages relevent [sic] to their
> > needs, they also aquire some background in all the other
> > needs. [sic???] Medieval History is, by tradtion, [sic] a much more
> > narrow area, [sic] focussing only on history proper with little
> > attention paid to areas such as art, literature, theology,
> > technology, etc., etc.
>
J Prescott
<fryk...@olypen.com> writes
>
>J Prescott wrote in message <6$eMSeAWS...@lotos-land.demon.co.uk>...
>>
>>University of Bristol, England.
>>
>>Why? The more money from Johnny Foreigners that it attracts, the chances
>>are that the fees for _us_ will not increase too much. Then I'll be able
>>to do it <g>
>>
>>Joanna
>
>My interest at the moment is in studying Italy & the Mediterranean region.
>some yankee dollars into the university system there--what would it cost me?
>:)
>Sandy
>
>
to info about courses here as well as fees:
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/Depts/Registrar/Admissions/studopp.htm
M.A. in Medieval Studies: course description of Part One
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first part consists of a core which is taken by all students.
1. Research Skills Seminar
This unit serves as an introduction to essential skills such as
palaeography (Latin and English), codicology, textual criticism and
theories of editing. There will also be sessions on bibliography and the
use of various specialist libraries and archives.
2. Core Text Seminar
This is a series of interdisciplinary seminars on texts and concepts
central to the study of the European middle ages. Subjects in 1997-8
include: Augustine, Confessions; Boethius, Consolation of Philosophy;
Bede, Ecclesiastical History; Chaucer, Knight's Tale; The Romance of the
Rose; the York Cycle of mystery plays.
3. Medieval Latin
This unit is suitable for students with no previous knowledge of the
language and aims to provide competence in essential grammar, syntax and
vocabulary. Those who are already sufficiently qualified in Latin may
substitute the study of another language.
Options available (by no means confined to Britain, quite a few have a
'religious' bias:
http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Medieval/maopt.htm
For any other British university, just use a search engine, they almost
all have their prospectuses on-line these days.
Bear in mind that it's most expensive to live in London, Oxford, then
the south in general.
HTH
Joanna
--
J Prescott
CG Luxford
On 29 Apr 1999, Paul J Gans wrote:
> CG Luxford <hi...@bris.ac.uk> wrote:
> >Well, I've never actually done a medieval studies course (though
> >I did do some medieval history topics in my history BA), but I would
> >have to suggest the Centre for Medieval Studies at the University of
> >York. Mostly out of loyalty for my alma mater, though It does have a
> >very good reputation anyway.
>
> >It also has a very nice setting in Central York, surrounded by medieval
> >buildings of every kind.
>
> Some built in the 20th century...
>
Including the one in which CMS is actually located, but that's not
really the point. And besides, most of the rest of the Kings Manor
"campus" is medieval, apart from Archeology ironically enough.
Chris,
CG Luxford
On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, J Prescott wrote:
> >
> Obviously Bristol is only one example. The following URL will lead you
> to info about courses here as well as fees:
>
> http://www.bristol.ac.uk/Depts/Registrar/Admissions/studopp.htm
>
to their authors. I can't remember their URLs off hand, and the Bristol
History Dept doesn't link to them, but I know the York history
department does.
http://www.york.ac.uk will get you to the University of York homepage,
follow the links from there.
Chris,
Carl Edlund Anderson
> Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
> > I have even seen a few which offer MAs/MPhils in "Viking
> > Studies".
>
Nah, for that you have to be a student in Scandinavia. Row ships and
hang out in Gammel Lejre for the amusement of the tourists ;)
Carl Edlund Anderson
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
> 5. When discussing Real Medieval History, give me a Real Medieval
> Historian every time over a 'medievalist.'
> 6. When discussing Real Medieval Art, I'm happy to hear from a Real
> Medieval Historian of Art --- and so forth.
Yeah, but it helps for the one to know a bit about what the other
does. This century, a very high degree of specialization has been trendy.
This is good because it has produced people with astonishing expertise on
particular things. It is bad because all to often a lack a familiarity
with interdisciplinary study has led to mistakes, wasted effort, and the
kind of professional emnity which holds back the advancement if research
and knowledge.
It is now possible to be a Real Historian of Medieval Scandinavia
without being able to read Old Norse! I can think of a few ...
Obviously, it is important to keep the "discipline" in
"interdisciplinary". But if our goal is to better understand a period, we
need both specialists and generalists.
D. Spencer Hines
Some quite excellent medieval buildings have been constructed in the
20th Century.
A fair collection is at Yale University.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Fortem Posce Animum
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
CG Luxford <hi...@bris.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.3.95q.99043...@eis.bris.ac.uk...
Brian M. Scott
>There are a couple of sites which link to all history departments known
>to their authors. I can't remember their URLs off hand, and the Bristol
>History Dept doesn't link to them, but I know the York history
>department does.
Might try the IHR info page at <http://www.ihrinfo.ac.uk/>.
Brian M. Scott
Manny Olds
> Some quite excellent medieval buildings have been constructed in the
> 20th Century.
Shouldn't we say "buildings in a medieval style"?
--
Manny Olds <old...@clark.net> of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"It has all the contortions of the sibyl without the inspiration."
-- Edmund Burke
erilar
>
> It should also be said that medieval history is just one
> facit of the study of the Middle Ages. There's a lot
> more. Which is why many schools offer programs in
> Medieval Studies as opposed to the much narrower field
> of Medieval History.
>
> The tradition in Medieval Studies programs is to try to
> generate graduates who are well-rounded in the period.
> Thus in addition to aquiring languages relevent to their
> needs, they also aquire some background in all the other
> needs. Medieval History is, by tradtion, a much more
> narrow area, focussing only on history proper with little
> attention paid to areas such as art, literature, theology,
> technology, etc., etc.
>
Germanic Philology is also more narrowly focused than a general medieval
studies program--which is why I'm finally filling in the history part in
more detail now that I've retired;-)
Mary
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar)
Germanic philologist, medieval enthusiast, K9TUD and lots of other stuff
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo
D. Spencer Hines
Good For You.
Some folks never fill in those blanks --- in the History part.
DSH
Fortem Posce Animum
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
erilar <erila...@SPAMwin.bright.net> wrote in message
news:erilarloNO-30...@dal-usr4-1-cs-36.win.bright.net...
frykholm
frykholm wrote in message ...
>Any opinions out there (HA!) about the best place in the western or
mid-west
>USA to pursue a master's degree in Medieval Studies? And what are good
>qualities to look for in such a program.
No one has had much to say (well, at least no one has said much) about these
programs in the US. Am I asking the wrong question? One reference book on
university programs identified only seven or eight universities in the whole
country which off master's level programs in "Medieval & Ren. Studies" and
most were on the east coast. Then there were Western Mich. and one in
southern Calif. (Santa Barbara?).
How about anything in western Canada?
Sandy
D. Spencer Hines
Squib fragments not acceptable.
Provide more details or pipe down.
You don't even limn the degrees.
Accept no substitutes for Ph.D.'s in Medieval History --- not Medieval
Studies.
D. Spencer Hines
Exitus Acta Probat
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
H.D. Miller <hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:hdmiller-010...@remote3-arap27.cis.yale.edu...
> In article <7ge79u$6pq$2...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "D. Spencer
Hines"
> <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
>
> > Vide infra.
> >
> > What does that tell you, if only a handful of universities ---
seven
> > or eight, as you say [and mediocre ones] --- offer these programs
in
> > 'Medieval and Renaissance Studies', or some quirked variation?
>
>
> Sorry to interrupt this stimulating free exchange of ideas, but...
>
>
> I would only point out that those "mediocre ones" include both Yale
and Cornell.
>
>
> You may now return to your regularly scheduled trolling.
>
>
>
> H.D. Miller
brad caffee
department - they may be your best bet.
brad caffee
title and we could easily put "discussion" , "lectures", or
"discourses" to the end of medievil and it would make no real difference
as long as the information is there. In most universities coarses are
labeled as the attending professor wants them to be labeled - "studies"
and "history" on the end of medievil is simply personal academic
preferance.
Incidently Hinesy Latin is a dead language because no one wants to
speak it. It dribbles off the tongue foppishly, unlike Hellene which
moves beautifully through the air.
TIMOLEON
Paul J Gans
>Indiana University, Bloomington has a great all around history
>department - they may be your best bet.
I'm not in any way knocking Indiana, but there's a
misunderstanding here. Many history departments offer
specialization in one area or another such as 19th Century
British History or Medieval History or whatever.
Art departments offer specializations in various areas
such as, again, medieval art.
Music departments again offer specializations, as do
Literature departments, etc., etc.
Many of these are very fine programs.
Medieval STUDIES, however, is a bit different. Such
programs are an attempt to integrate training in a
number of the above areas, as well as having students
specialize in one of them.
The reason for this is obvious. There exist, for
example, medieval historians whose knowledge of
the literature of the period is, shall we say, poor.
And there are art historians, excellent in their
studies of medieval art, who are quite deficient
in the history of some of the areas they study.
It was recognized early on that at least a partial
cure for these hiati lay in having a unified program.
Most medieval studies programs utilize courses offered
in other departments such as history and literature. But
they also offer an easy route to "interdepartmental" work
in various areas.
That's why most of the best known programs dealing with
the Middle Ages are medieval studies programs.
Paul J Gans
>This squabling over "studies" vs "history" is ludicous. These are mere
>title and we could easily put "discussion" , "lectures", or
>"discourses" to the end of medievil and it would make no real difference
>as long as the information is there. In most universities coarses are
>labeled as the attending professor wants them to be labeled - "studies"
>and "history" on the end of medievil is simply personal academic
>preferance.
[...]
I've answered this in an earlier post. But I have to point
out that there is much more than a title involved in the
difference between medieval studies and medieval history.
In the latter case, the history department sets the
requirements. What the literature departments might think
is, for example, of little or no interest to them. A
medieval studies *program*, on the other hand, usually
allows students a tailor made set of courses cutting
across departmental lines -- and supervised by people in
a number of different departments.
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> Indiana University, Bloomington has a great all around history
> department - they may be your best bet.
It works for me. <G>
Tony
Kathryn M. Talarico
: frykholm wrote in message ...
: Sandy
There actually are very few programs in graduate level Medieval Studies
per se in the US. Most are undergraduate programs which permit students
to take courses in a wide variety of disciplines, but with a concentration
in one discipline in particular (i.e. literature, history, fine arts,
religion, philosophy, etc.). The reason for this is that if these
undergraduates want to go on to graduate school to pursue either a
Master's or a PhD, they need to demonstrate a complete or near-complete
major in one discipline. This was the case when I directed the Medieval
and Renaissance Studies program at NYU. We were very careful to make sure
that our majors had a chance to get into graduate schools in a specific
discipline. What often happens is that students do "medieval studies" at
the PhD level when they work on their doctoral dissertations--but doctoral
dissertations grounded firmly in one discipline--with outreach, if you
will, to other disciplines. These future PhD's are interested in
employment after completing their degrees! The reality of university
teaching in the US these days is that even if you have a PhD in medieval
French literature, you will perhaps get a job in a French department but
your primary responsibility will not necessarily be to teach only medieval
lit courses at the undergraduate and/or graduate level. There will be a
fair share of other courses--language and literature--that you will be
asked to teach. The same is true for history departments: you may have a
PhD in Byzantine history, but it's likely that at the beginning of your
career you will spend quite a bit of time teaching "World Civ" courses...
It would probably be a good idea, then, to research a variety of MA/PhD
programs in several universities and in several departments in those
universities to see if you could put something like an interdisciplinary
program together--but again, with a firm grounding in one discipline.
Kathryn Talarico
Laura Blanchard
...[T]here is much more than a title involved in the
> difference between medieval studies and medieval history.
> In the latter case, the history department sets the
> requirements. What the literature departments might think
> is, for example, of little or no interest to them. A
> medieval studies *program*, on the other hand, usually
> allows students a tailor made set of courses cutting
> across departmental lines -- and supervised by people in
> a number of different departments.
H.D. Miller has cited two Ivy League schools (Yale and Cornell)
with medieval studies programs. A non-Ivy that comes to my mind
immediately is UCLA, which has a very comprehensive medren studies
center. In addition, other schools (e.g., Harvard, Columbia and
Penn among the Ivies, and many more) have medieval studies committees
whose members can help student create what is in effect a degree in
medieval studies within the parameters of a history, literature,
or other major. At the risk of sounding redundant -- or, worse,
referring folks to yet another web page I had a hand in -- let me
suggest that you look at the Medieval Academy's Committee on Centers
and Regional Associations listings, reachable from
http://www.georgetown.edu/MedievalAcademy/
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
Robert Barrett
: That's why most of the best known programs dealing with
: the Middle Ages are medieval studies programs.
This is true. It's also true that in the current academic job market
interdisciplinary degrees aren't worth as much as department-specific
degrees. So anyone interested in teaching a medieval subject at the
university level upon completion of their program should seriously
consider passing over medieval studies programs and applying to the
department closest to their interests. Why? Most interdisciplinary
programs are at large research institutions; smaller liberal arts colleges
and regional universities and community colleges tend to go no further
than interdisciplinary majors and minors. So the majority of hiring
committees are looking to fill needs in specific departments, and medieval
studies (or any other interdisciplinary degree) won't necessarily fit
available slots. An English department will want a medievalist who can
teach Shakespeare, Spenser, Milton, and maybe even Dryden/Pope; a history
department will also want a specialist capable of handling departmental
survey courses. I know that I was very specifically warned off of
medieval studies programs when I was applying to graduate programs in
1990.
This is not to knock interdisciplinary study, of course. But those of you
interested in studying the Middle Ages at the graduate level should
seriously consider staying within the more traditional departmental
format. In most cases, you won't be losing any breadth of study; most
departments only have 2-4 medievalists on staff (half of whom are juniors
and not allowed to teach graduate courses), and you'll be forced to take
courses in other departments to fill in certain gaps. Since most programs
are happy to let students enroll in other discipline's courses, you get
the benefit of interdisciplinary work along with the security of a
discipline-specific degree. Here at Penn, I've taken courses in Romance
Languages (Dante's Inferno), Classical Studies (2x: Gregory the Great
(team-taught with Religious Studies), Augustine), and Germanic Languages
(Old Icelandic). Add in interdisciplinary lecture series and conferences
and the like, and I have had something very close to the sort of work
offered at places like Indiana or Toronto.
Best,
Rob
--
Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu * World
Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Dept. of
English, Univ. of Pennsylvania * "What makes the muskrat guard his musk?
Courage!" The Cowardly Lion (Bert Lahr), *The Wizard of Oz* (1939)
D. Spencer Hines
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Fortem Posce Animum
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
Kathryn M. Talarico <tala...@scholar.chem.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:WMJW2.26
> There actually are very few programs in graduate level Medieval
Studies
> per se in the US. Most are undergraduate programs which permit
students
> to take courses in a wide variety of disciplines, but with a
concentration
> in one discipline in particular (i.e. literature, history, fine
arts,
> religion, philosophy, etc.).
> The reason for this is that if these
> undergraduates want to go on to graduate school to pursue either a
> Master's or a PhD, they need to demonstrate a complete or
near-complete
> major in one discipline. This was the case when I directed the
Medieval
> and Renaissance Studies program at NYU. We were very careful to
make sure
> that our majors had a chance to get into graduate schools in a
specific
> discipline.
<snip>
> Kathryn Talarico
Yes. One of the hazardous things about newsgroups is that any idiot
can jump in with an allegedly 'professional' opinion on something
quite complex. Unraveling the bum dope is often then quite
difficult --- and it tends to proliferate.
We've seen that previously in this thread. Dr. Kathryn Talarico, the
beloved 'Gotham Groupie', is a Real Medieval Historian and not an
idiot poaching out of her field, when she writes about these matters.
'Medieval Studies' programs, she tells us, are primarily UNDERGRADUATE
programs, in the United States.
This is a salient fact --- and it has been quite blurred in the
previous posts by the idiots poaching out of their fields of
competence.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Exitus Acta Probat
D. Spencer Hines
More sensible information, correcting previous careless
misrepresentations and arrant gibberish in this thread.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Exitus Acta Probat
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
Robert Barrett <rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:7gfr6u$5hp$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...
> Paul J Gans (ga...@panix.com) wrote:
>
> : That's why most of the best known programs dealing with
> : the Middle Ages are medieval studies programs.
>
> This is true. It's also true that in the current academic job
market
> interdisciplinary degrees aren't worth as much as
department-specific
> degrees. So anyone interested in teaching a medieval subject at the
> university level upon completion of their program should seriously
> consider passing over medieval studies programs and applying to the
> department closest to their interests.
<snip>
Joseph Rooney, Jr
>Vide infra.
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas
>Fortem Posce Animum
>--
>
>D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
>neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
>their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
>Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
>
They are not exclusively undergraduate. Catholic University in
Washington D.C., for example offers an MA and a PhD in Byzantine and
Medieval Studies. While Catholic may not be considered among the
"Elite" universities in the US, the faculty in the program do seem to
have excellent credentials.
Joe Rooney
-Friends help you move. Real Friends help you move bodies.
D. Spencer Hines
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
Joseph Rooney, Jr <jr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:372b7fbb.3102838@news.mindspring.com...
<snip>
No one has said that they are 'exclusively undergraduate' --- but
'primarily undergraduate'.
DSH
Lux et Veritas
H.D. Miller
rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
> Paul J Gans (ga...@panix.com) wrote:
>
> : That's why most of the best known programs dealing with
> : the Middle Ages are medieval studies programs.
>
> This is true. It's also true that in the current academic job market
> interdisciplinary degrees aren't worth as much as department-specific
> degrees.
This is _not_ true. 19 of the last 21 PhDs awarded in Medieval Studies
here at Yale are currently employed in the field, either as professors or
as medieval manuscript curators. And of the two who aren't, one is Judith
Tarr, the historical-fantasy novelist. In fact, two of our most recent
graduates were hired by the English Department at the University of
Pennsylvania and the History Department at Stanford. The argument that
degrees in Medieval Studies are worth less than department-specific
degrees just doesn't hold up in the case of Yale, and I suspect the same
is true for Cornell and Toronto.
The great advantage of a Medieval Studies program is the ability to design
a very individualized course of study. In my case, I wanted to be a
historian of Islamic Spain, a course of study which required I be trained
as both an Arabist and a historian, be trained in both Latin and Arabic.
There are no history departments anywhere that would have allowed me to do
more than half of my course work in a Near Eastern languages department,
nor are there any Near Eastern departments that would have allowed me to
do substantial amounts of work in historiography and medieval European
history. The only way to combine the two was in a Medieval Studies
program.
I think the term "interdisciplinary" has acquired a bad reputation because
it's used incorrectly, used by people who are firmly entrenched in one
field to excuse their untrained dabbling in another. The trick to being
truly interdisciplinary is to master both fields, to be competent as both
an art historian and a literary critic, for example, or even as a chemist
and a historian.
The idea that in order for one to be a Real Medieval Historian one must
study history, and only history, to the exclusion of all other disciplines
is ridiculous, and not a little wrong-headed (maybe even infantile when
expressed by certain people). Certainly one must study history in order
to be a historian, but there's no law that says one may not go beyond that
discipline after one has acquired a certain level of competency. Likewise,
there are particular fields of history, (History of Medicine, History of
Mathematics, Byzantine History, Islamic History) that by their very nature
require a high degree of competency in another discipline. This is where
Medieval Studies programs are strongest, and offer the strongest argument
for interdisciplinarity.
Finally, I'd only point out that most departmental hiring decisions are
made on basis of individual qualifications, not on the supposed relative
merits of Medieval Studies. Meaning that a particularly well-qualified,
well-recommended and capable candidate with a Medieval Studies degree will
be hired ahead of less well-qualified, or less well-recommended candidate
with a department-specific degree. This is exactly what happened at Penn,
where a Yale Medieval Studies PhD was hired ahead of several Yale English
PhDs (and presumably hundreds of PhDs from other English departments),
thus putting the lie to the proposition that Medieval Studies degrees are
"worth less."
H.D. Miller
D. Spencer Hines
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
H.D. Miller <hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:hdmiller-010...@remote3-arap53.cis.yale.edu...
> In article <7gfr6u$5hp$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
>
> > Paul J Gans (ga...@panix.com) wrote:
> >
> > : That's why most of the best known programs dealing with
> > : the Middle Ages are medieval studies programs.
> >
> > This is true. It's also true that in the current academic job
market
> > interdisciplinary degrees aren't worth as much as
department-specific
> > degrees.
>
> This is _not_ true. 19 of the last 21 PhDs awarded in Medieval
Studies
> here at Yale are currently employed in the field, either as
professors or
> as medieval manuscript curators. And of the two who aren't, one is
Judith
> Tarr, the historical-fantasy novelist.
<snip>
> H.D. Miller
Yes, and now tell us the comparable figures for the other 'Medieval
Studies' programs throughout the United States --- over the same
timeframe.
Just looking at the Yale statistics for 21 Medieval Studies Ph.D.'s is
hardly representative of anything. How many years do the 21 cover?
Also, how many of the 21 are 'medieval manuscript curators'? That
sounds like a coveted position, indeed.
Is a basic knowledge of statistics not required in the Yale 'Medieval
Studies' program?
D. Spencer Hines
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
H.D. Miller <hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:hdmiller-010...@remote3-arap53.cis.yale.edu...
<snip>
> The idea that in order for one to be a Real Medieval Historian one
must
> study history, and only history, to the exclusion of all other
disciplines
> is ridiculous, and not a little wrong-headed (maybe even infantile
when
> expressed by certain people.
<snip>
No one here has said anything of the sort. To suggest that someone
has is a prime example of the Fallacy of the False Alternative.
Real Yale Men don't make mistakes of that sort. Panty-waisted Yale
graduate students have been known to, _au contraire_.
> Finally, I'd only point out that most departmental hiring decisions
are
> made on basis of individual qualifications, not on the supposed
relative
> merits of Medieval Studies.
<snip>
> H.D. Miller
Of course, no surprise there. That's a plain vanilla deduction.
Bears have been known to defecate in the forest.
Henry II is known to have had some disagreements with his sons.
"Elementary, my dear Watson."
Vance
H.D. Miller wrote in message ...
>In article <7gfr6u$5hp$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
>rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
>
>> Paul J Gans (ga...@panix.com) wrote:
>>
>> : That's why most of the best known programs dealing with
>> : the Middle Ages are medieval studies programs.
>>
>> This is true. It's also true that in the current academic job market
>> interdisciplinary degrees aren't worth as much as department-specific
>> degrees.
>
>This is _not_ true. 19 of the last 21 PhDs awarded in Medieval Studies
>here at Yale are currently employed in the field, either as professors or
>as medieval manuscript curators. And of the two who aren't, one is Judith
>graduates were hired by the English Department at the University of
>Pennsylvania and the History Department at Stanford. The argument that
>degrees in Medieval Studies are worth less than department-specific
>degrees just doesn't hold up in the case of Yale, and I suspect the same
>is true for Cornell and Toronto.
Ohhh! A Medieval Studies program at Yale!! This is too much! Mr. Miller,
I really don't have an opinion as to the benefits or weaknesses of the two
types of programs, and it seems that you know more about this than most
others, but one poster here who has vilified these "studies" programs for
the last few days is an ardent supporter of Yale, thinking it can do no
wrong. Thank you for this information.
D. Spencer Hines
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
H.D. Miller <hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:hdmiller-020...@remote3-arap30.cis.yale.edu...
> In article <7gg7pf$hmp$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
>
> > H.D. Miller (hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu) wrote:
>
> >
> > "Worth as much" was a bad choice of words on my part; I didn't
intend to
> > imply that Medieval Studies degrees aren't a worthwhile pursuit or
> > valuable indicators of intellectual and scholarly expertise. As I
noted
> > elsewhere in my post, I have been told by a number of different
advisors
> > and colleagues (including the English professor and Yale Medieval
Studies
> > degree holder you mention in your post) that a department-specific
degree
> > was more likely to result in a successful hire in the current poor
> > academic market.
>
> Again, the point I just made was that there are certain Medieval
Studies
> programs (Yale and Cornell, perhaps others) which seem to have much
better
> placement records than most single-discipline academic departments.
> Medieval Studies at Yale has a better placement record than either
History
> or English at Yale.
You have NOT provided the data to prove this very hortatory statement.
Please do so, or cease and desist.
> Thus the evidence argues against the notion that
> you'd be somehow hindered in a job search if you had a degree in
Medieval
> Studies from one of these programs.
Have you examined the set of ALL Ph.D.'s from Yale, in the appropriate
disciplines, over a period of at least 10-15 years? Now, look at the
other U.S. 'Medieval Studies' programs --- do the same
number-crunching.
That might be worth discussing.
You are simply cherry-picking --- and you don't even seem to realize
it.
Learn something about statistics --- then come back and talk to us.
You are a first year graduate student?
<snip>
> H.D. Miller
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Fortem Posce Animum
Paul J Gans
>: That's why most of the best known programs dealing with
>: the Middle Ages are medieval studies programs.
>This is true. It's also true that in the current academic job market
>interdisciplinary degrees aren't worth as much as department-specific
>degrees. So anyone interested in teaching a medieval subject at the
>university level upon completion of their program should seriously
>consider passing over medieval studies programs and applying to the
>department closest to their interests. Why? Most interdisciplinary
>programs are at large research institutions; smaller liberal arts colleges
>and regional universities and community colleges tend to go no further
>than interdisciplinary majors and minors. So the majority of hiring
>committees are looking to fill needs in specific departments, and medieval
>studies (or any other interdisciplinary degree) won't necessarily fit
>available slots. An English department will want a medievalist who can
>teach Shakespeare, Spenser, Milton, and maybe even Dryden/Pope; a history
>department will also want a specialist capable of handling departmental
>survey courses. I know that I was very specifically warned off of
>medieval studies programs when I was applying to graduate programs in
>1990.
[...]
You are quite right. Kathryn Talarico just posted a similar
point of view.
My point was that the programs are rather different than
simple departmental programs and that the difference was
not just academic. (Forgive me, I can't help the pun ;-)
----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Robert Barrett
: In article <7gfr6u$5hp$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
: rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
: > This is true. It's also true that in the current academic job market
: > interdisciplinary degrees aren't worth as much as department-specific
: > degrees.
: here at Yale are currently employed in the field, either as professors or
: as medieval manuscript curators. And of the two who aren't, one is Judith
: Tarr, the historical-fantasy novelist. In fact, two of our most recent
: graduates were hired by the English Department at the University of
: Pennsylvania and the History Department at Stanford. The argument that
: degrees in Medieval Studies are worth less than department-specific
: degrees just doesn't hold up in the case of Yale, and I suspect the same
: is true for Cornell and Toronto.
"Worth as much" was a bad choice of words on my part; I didn't intend to
imply that Medieval Studies degrees aren't a worthwhile pursuit or
valuable indicators of intellectual and scholarly expertise. As I noted
elsewhere in my post, I have been told by a number of different advisors
and colleagues (including the English professor and Yale Medieval Studies
degree holder you mention in your post) that a department-specific degree
was more likely to result in a successful hire in the current poor
academic market. See below for additional comments on this point.
>>snip to important point about flexibility of Medieval Studies programs,
esp. in the case of certain fields and subjects<<
: I think the term "interdisciplinary" has acquired a bad reputation because
: it's used incorrectly, used by people who are firmly entrenched in one
: field to excuse their untrained dabbling in another. The trick to being
: truly interdisciplinary is to master both fields, to be competent as both
: an art historian and a literary critic, for example, or even as a chemist
: and a historian.
No disagreement here, although I'm a bit leery of your use of 'untrained
dabbling,' especially in light of who you're invoking immediately below.
: The idea that in order for one to be a Real Medieval Historian one must
: study history, and only history, to the exclusion of all other disciplines
: is ridiculous, and not a little wrong-headed (maybe even infantile when
: expressed by certain people). Certainly one must study history in order
: to be a historian, but there's no law that says one may not go beyond that
: discipline after one has acquired a certain level of competency. Likewise,
: there are particular fields of history, (History of Medicine, History of
: Mathematics, Byzantine History, Islamic History) that by their very nature
: require a high degree of competency in another discipline. This is where
: Medieval Studies programs are strongest, and offer the strongest argument
: for interdisciplinarity.
Agreed. I'm not particularly interested or invensted in any idea of "Real
Medieval [Whatevers]".
: Finally, I'd only point out that most departmental hiring decisions are
: made on basis of individual qualifications, not on the supposed relative
: merits of Medieval Studies. Meaning that a particularly well-qualified,
: well-recommended and capable candidate with a Medieval Studies degree will
: be hired ahead of less well-qualified, or less well-recommended candidate
: with a department-specific degree. This is exactly what happened at Penn,
: where a Yale Medieval Studies PhD was hired ahead of several Yale English
: PhDs (and presumably hundreds of PhDs from other English departments),
: thus putting the lie to the proposition that Medieval Studies degrees are
: "worth less."
Again, I apologize for my imprecise use of "worth as much." And I agree
that hires are based for the most part on individual qualifications; my
discussion of the market was not meant to imply that hiring committees
won't consider Medieval Studies candidates or that they'll treat them in
any way as inferior to discipline-specific candidates. I raised the issue
of hires b/c of my experience with course loads and schedules here at
Penn: grad students in most of the departments with which I'm familiar
only have 20 course units to fill up. In the English department at the
present moment, 7 of those units are taken up by courses in pedagogy,
field exam preparation, and an introduction to graduate study in the
discipline. There isn't a lot of room left to cover both one's specialty
field and any "elective" courses. Other departments will of course
differ, as will institutions and programs. But I suspect that the very
things which make Medieval Studies graduates such wonderful medievalists
may not help them at institutions looking for instructors capable of
addressing general departmental teaching requirements (research
universities like Penn and other departments may of course be more
interested in a medievalist than in an English professor per se).
My ultimate point was not to denigrate Medieval Studies programs per se,
and I apologize again for being imprecise and coming across as doing so.
My original post was supposed to suggest that persons interested in doing
graduate work on topics medieval had more choices than just Medieval
Studies programs, that discipline-specific programs also had much to offer
prospective medievalists. Penn currently has no Medieval Studies graduate
students (I'm not sure if the old Medieval Studies degree is still even
offered), but I don't think a faculty consisting of David Wallace
(English), Kevin Brownlee (French/Italian), Marina Brownlee (Spanish), E.
Ann Matter (Religious Studies), James O'Donnell (Classics), Ed Peters
(History), and a good many other wonderful professors I'm overlooking at
the moment can be called anything less than stellar. Penn grad students,
no matter what their department of origin, can do a pretty good job of
replicating a Medieval Studies program and acquiring necessary
interdisciplinary skills and interests. Grad students at other
universities in department-specific programs can do likewise.
Best,
Rob
--
Paul J Gans
>In article <7gfr6u$5hp$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
>rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
>> Paul J Gans (ga...@panix.com) wrote:
>>
>> : That's why most of the best known programs dealing with
>> : the Middle Ages are medieval studies programs.
>>
>> This is true. It's also true that in the current academic job market
>> interdisciplinary degrees aren't worth as much as department-specific
>> degrees.
>This is _not_ true. 19 of the last 21 PhDs awarded in Medieval Studies
>here at Yale are currently employed in the field, either as professors or
>as medieval manuscript curators. And of the two who aren't, one is Judith
>Tarr, the historical-fantasy novelist. In fact, two of our most recent
>graduates were hired by the English Department at the University of
>Pennsylvania and the History Department at Stanford. The argument that
>degrees in Medieval Studies are worth less than department-specific
>degrees just doesn't hold up in the case of Yale, and I suspect the same
>is true for Cornell and Toronto.
>The great advantage of a Medieval Studies program is the ability to design
>a very individualized course of study. In my case, I wanted to be a
>historian of Islamic Spain, a course of study which required I be trained
>as both an Arabist and a historian, be trained in both Latin and Arabic.
>There are no history departments anywhere that would have allowed me to do
>more than half of my course work in a Near Eastern languages department,
>nor are there any Near Eastern departments that would have allowed me to
>do substantial amounts of work in historiography and medieval European
>history. The only way to combine the two was in a Medieval Studies
>program.
>I think the term "interdisciplinary" has acquired a bad reputation because
>it's used incorrectly, used by people who are firmly entrenched in one
>field to excuse their untrained dabbling in another. The trick to being
>truly interdisciplinary is to master both fields, to be competent as both
>an art historian and a literary critic, for example, or even as a chemist
>and a historian.
>The idea that in order for one to be a Real Medieval Historian one must
>study history, and only history, to the exclusion of all other disciplines
>is ridiculous, and not a little wrong-headed (maybe even infantile when
>expressed by certain people). Certainly one must study history in order
>to be a historian, but there's no law that says one may not go beyond that
>discipline after one has acquired a certain level of competency. Likewise,
>there are particular fields of history, (History of Medicine, History of
>Mathematics, Byzantine History, Islamic History) that by their very nature
>require a high degree of competency in another discipline. This is where
>Medieval Studies programs are strongest, and offer the strongest argument
>for interdisciplinarity.
>Finally, I'd only point out that most departmental hiring decisions are
>made on basis of individual qualifications, not on the supposed relative
>merits of Medieval Studies. Meaning that a particularly well-qualified,
>well-recommended and capable candidate with a Medieval Studies degree will
>be hired ahead of less well-qualified, or less well-recommended candidate
>with a department-specific degree. This is exactly what happened at Penn,
>where a Yale Medieval Studies PhD was hired ahead of several Yale English
>PhDs (and presumably hundreds of PhDs from other English departments),
>thus putting the lie to the proposition that Medieval Studies degrees are
>"worth less."
You are right too. (I've been agreeing with everybody.
Isn't that nice? :-)
But you've answered a slightly different question. My point
was to show the difference between a departmentally
based degree and one that can be more broad. YOur experience
agrees with that. Kathy's point was that being broadly
trained in medieval studies wasn't enough because most
hiring is departmentally based, as you also noted.
Both of you agree that one needs enough detailed training
in order to be hired by an English department or a History
department (not to mention a French department, which is
Kathy's field.) I agree with that too.
So I think that we all agree on the basics here.
H.D. Miller
rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
> H.D. Miller (hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu) wrote:
>
> "Worth as much" was a bad choice of words on my part; I didn't intend to
> imply that Medieval Studies degrees aren't a worthwhile pursuit or
> valuable indicators of intellectual and scholarly expertise. As I noted
> elsewhere in my post, I have been told by a number of different advisors
> and colleagues (including the English professor and Yale Medieval Studies
> degree holder you mention in your post) that a department-specific degree
> was more likely to result in a successful hire in the current poor
> academic market.
Again, the point I just made was that there are certain Medieval Studies
programs (Yale and Cornell, perhaps others) which seem to have much better
placement records than most single-discipline academic departments.
Medieval Studies at Yale has a better placement record than either History
or English at Yale. Thus the evidence argues against the notion that
you'd be somehow hindered in a job search if you had a degree in Medieval
Studies from one of these programs.
(...)
> : The trick to being
> : truly interdisciplinary is to master both fields, to be competent as both
> : an art historian and a literary critic, for example, or even as a chemist
> : and a historian.
>
> No disagreement here, although I'm a bit leery of your use of 'untrained
> dabbling,' especially in light of who you're invoking immediately below.
I apologize that my intentions were not clearer. The reference is
actually laudatory. I'm suggesting, by using the real-life example, that
it's possible to be very competent in two widely divergent fields. Also,
the same example demonstrates a secondary point, that, in some
disciplines, there are ways to receive sufficient training that are
outside of the usual formal academic channels. This is especially true
for the discipline of history, a discipline whose basic tenets are open to
anyone willing to do some serious reading. The result is that many of the
best histories are written by autodidacts. Of course, the opposite is also
true, many of the worst histories are written by autodidacts. And there
are some people, no matter how much reading they do or formal training
they receive, who will never be historians, but will remain whiffling
loudmouths, content to shout their opinionated, ill-formed ideas into the
ether. (Retired military officers seem to be a staple of the latter
class.)
(...)
> My ultimate point was not to denigrate Medieval Studies programs per se,
> and I apologize again for being imprecise and coming across as doing so.
> My original post was supposed to suggest that persons interested in doing
> graduate work on topics medieval had more choices than just Medieval
> Studies programs, that discipline-specific programs also had much to offer
> prospective medievalists. Penn currently has no Medieval Studies graduate
> students (I'm not sure if the old Medieval Studies degree is still even
> offered), but I don't think a faculty consisting of David Wallace
> (English), Kevin Brownlee (French/Italian), Marina Brownlee (Spanish), E.
> Ann Matter (Religious Studies), James O'Donnell (Classics), Ed Peters
> (History), and a good many other wonderful professors I'm overlooking at
> the moment can be called anything less than stellar. Penn grad students,
> no matter what their department of origin, can do a pretty good job of
> replicating a Medieval Studies program and acquiring necessary
> interdisciplinary skills and interests. Grad students at other
> universities in department-specific programs can do likewise.
I'm afraid you've also missed my second point. There are certain things
you absolutely _cannot_ do within the current structure of
discipline-specific academic departments. Certain areas, eras and topics
can only be properly addressed within the context of an interdisciplinary
program, and in many cases Medieval Studies is the best choice for that. I
agree with you that there are many, many excellent medievalists who were
trained in discipline-specific departments, and that Medieval Studies is
only one paradigm among several. But at the same time, the specialized
training a Medieval Studies program can offer is sometimes the exact thing
needed to produce a scholar who has the correct tools to study a
particular subject.
H.D. Miller
Robert Barrett
: In article <7gg7pf$hmp$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
: rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
: Again, the point I just made was that there are certain Medieval Studies
: programs (Yale and Cornell, perhaps others) which seem to have much better
: placement records than most single-discipline academic departments.
: Medieval Studies at Yale has a better placement record than either History
: or English at Yale. Thus the evidence argues against the notion that
: you'd be somehow hindered in a job search if you had a degree in Medieval
: Studies from one of these programs.
Our hypothetical Medieval Studies scholar would be hindered insofar as
there would be certain jobs that would not be available to a candidate of
his or her caliber. I've talked to the Job Placement Officer at Penn, and
it's quite clear that Ivy League institutions have difficulty placing
candidates in jobs at small liberal arts colleges and other institutions
heavily devoted to undergraduate teaching. The perception is that Ivy
Leaguers are on the fast track, that they're research-oriented, that
they're likely to bolt for a more prestigious, less service- and
teaching-oriented job in a few years. I've been told that Southern
schools are less than eager to take Penn students and that my
undergraduate study in Texas will help me get a second-look next year on
the market. And we all know about the "jobs" that are really just
spousal hires or faux-searches designed to avoid breaking the law by
directly hiring desired candidates. It's quite clear to me that the
highest qualifications do not automatically translate into a hire, just as
it's clear to me that Medieval Studies implies a degree of topical focus
that certain types of institutions aren't interested in pursuing.
Is a degree in Medieval Studies from the top programs generally a plus on
the academic job market? Yes. But it won't be a shoo-in for every job.
Note: how many years does your 19 for 21 stat cover? My sense is that
graduate study in Medieval Studies at Yale is probably far more exclusive
in terms of admissions than the more traditional departments--but I'm
willing to be corrected.
: I'm afraid you've also missed my second point. There are certain things
: you absolutely _cannot_ do within the current structure of
: discipline-specific academic departments. Certain areas, eras and topics
: can only be properly addressed within the context of an interdisciplinary
: program, and in many cases Medieval Studies is the best choice for that. I
: agree with you that there are many, many excellent medievalists who were
: trained in discipline-specific departments, and that Medieval Studies is
: only one paradigm among several. But at the same time, the specialized
: training a Medieval Studies program can offer is sometimes the exact thing
: needed to produce a scholar who has the correct tools to study a
: particular subject.
No disagreement here--I wasn't missing your point so much as reformulating
my own. For the sort of specialized field of study that lies outside
traditional disciplines (such as your own research into Islamic Spain),
Medieval Studies is a great idea. But the various posters asking about
medieval studies graduate opportunities should also be aware that
discipline-specific departments and programs can satisfy many of their
needs as well. Someone interested in medieval poetry would, IMHO, do
better to apply to a specific national literature department or a
comparative literature program than to look around at a Medieval Studies
program. Someone interested in alchemy, OTOH, does seem like a natural
candidate for Medieval Studies (although there are History and Sociology
of Science departments that could handle the job).
Ultimately, I think our positions are complementary. Persons who wish to
pursue a graduate course of study in a medieval topic of their choosing
should do their homework and try to line their specific interests up with
the resources and personnel of the various programs, interdisciplinary and
discipline-specific, out there. A program's reputation is ultimately less
important than the quality of its library and of its faculty and advising.
That said, I should probably give some concrete advice to get back on
topic. Laura has already given out a useful URL listing the various
programs out there. A potential problem with the University of Toronto
for American students is the lack of tuition waivers for foreign students;
when I was accepted there in 1991, the stipend offered me quickly dwindled
to $2K per year after tuition. I think that buys a refrigerator box in
downtown Toronto. I'd be interested in knowing if the tuition waiver
situation is still an ongoing problem with Canadian universities. The
general point here is that $ is going to be an important factor in any
decision to seek advanced study; applicants should make sure that the
departments or programs to which they're applying offer some sort of
guaranteed funding for the average term of stay (5-6 years). I also
recommend making sure that the program offers some sort of substantial
pedagogical training/experience; teaching will (a) help you get jobs and
(b) help you learn your subject like the back of your hand.
H.D. Miller
> H.D. Miller <hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
> >In article <7gfr6u$5hp$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> >rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
>
> >> Paul J Gans (ga...@panix.com) wrote:
> >>
> >> : That's why most of the best known programs dealing with
> >> : the Middle Ages are medieval studies programs.
> >>
> >> This is true. It's also true that in the current academic job market
> >> interdisciplinary degrees aren't worth as much as department-specific
> >> degrees.
>
> >This is _not_ true.
(...)
> You are right too. (I've been agreeing with everybody.
> Isn't that nice? :-)
>
> But you've answered a slightly different question. My point
> was to show the difference between a departmentally
> based degree and one that can be more broad. YOur experience
> agrees with that. Kathy's point was that being broadly
> trained in medieval studies wasn't enough because most
> hiring is departmentally based, as you also noted.
>
> Both of you agree that one needs enough detailed training
> in order to be hired by an English department or a History
> department (not to mention a French department, which is
> Kathy's field.) I agree with that too.
Exactly. Hiring is departmentally based, so you need sufficient training
to be able to work in a specific department. But, if you're properly
interdisciplinary there'll be no problem, since theoretically you'll be
well trained in two or more disciplines.
I feel pretty confident I could get a job in either History or Near
Eastern Languages, although I consider History to be the one most closely
allied to what I do. The point of this self-referential statement is that
I'm properly trained in two fields, but only because I was in an
interdisciplinary program that gave me the opportunity to receive that
training.
A secondary point of that statement, and one of my pet peeves, is that the
current divisions between the academic disciplines sometimes seem
arbitrary and illogical.
1. Christians living in Medieval Iberia = History department.
2. Muslims living in Medieval Iberia = Near Eastern department.
3. Catalan = Spanish Department
4. Occitan = French Department
5. Averroes and Avicenna = Philosophy
6. Ibn Rushd and Ibn Sina = Near Eastern
7. Latin = Classics
8. Medieval Latin = ??
What happens when something comes along that doesn't fit into these
supposedly neat academic divisions? Everyone either goes crazy, or else
they all ignore what they see as inconsistent or difficult. The classic
example is the kharjas, the romance language envois at the end of some
Arabic muwashshahat. For nearly 50 years, since the kharjas were first
"discovered," the Romance scholars have been studying only the four lines
of the kharjas, ignoring the 24 lines of Classical Arabic that preceeded
them in the poems. Likewise the Arabists studied the Arabic body while
ignoring the Romance-language endings. The reason was that neither group
was properly trained to deal with both halves of the whole. Their academic
training, provided along strict disciplinary lines, was insufficient. So
this crazy bi-polar system of analysis existed, and still largely exists,
in which the two halves of a single coherent work of art must be studied
in isolation from each other. Only recently have scholars come along who
are prepared to deal with the muwashshahat as a whole unit.
And that's one of the many reasons why Medieval Studies and other
interdisciplinary programs exist, to provide the training to people who
want to work in the gray area between various academic disciplines.
H.D. Miller
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> the difference was
> not just academic. (Forgive me, I can't help the pun ;-)
Must.... fight.... evil.... urges.....
Can't.... give in.... to dark side.....
AAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!
Tony
H.D. Miller
rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
> H.D. Miller (hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu) wrote:
> : In article <7gg7pf$hmp$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> : rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
>
> : Again, the point I just made was that there are certain Medieval Studies
> : programs (Yale and Cornell, perhaps others) which seem to have much better
> : placement records than most single-discipline academic departments.(...)
> Our hypothetical Medieval Studies scholar would be hindered insofar as
> there would be certain jobs that would not be available to a candidate of
> his or her caliber. (...) It's quite clear to me that the
> highest qualifications do not automatically translate into a hire, just as
> it's clear to me that Medieval Studies implies a degree of topical focus
> that certain types of institutions aren't interested in pursuing.
> Is a degree in Medieval Studies from the top programs generally a plus on
> the academic job market? Yes. But it won't be a shoo-in for every job.
I think you're exactly right all the way through here. So much about the
academic hiring process seems arbitrary, and that even the best
credentials won't get certain jobs. Since I won't be starting my job
search for a full year, I currently have confidence in the stellar
placement numbers that I keep bandying about. I'm sure that a year from
now, as I start sending out the CVs, I'll be much less sanguine about the
whole process.
> Note: how many years does your 19 for 21 stat cover?
It's the years from 1980 to the end of 1996. So it actually doesn't
include the last two years, although I'm pretty certain everyone who's
recently graduated has already found employment (at Stanford, Penn,
Kenyon, and Rice).
> My sense is that graduate study in Medieval Studies at Yale is
> probably far more exclusive in terms of admissions than the more
> traditional departments--but I'm willing to be corrected.
I was actually going to say something to that. Yale offers admission to
only one or two a year. Currently, there's one first year, one second
year, one third year, I'm the fourth year, and two fifth year students.
There are a few others from later years, bringing the total number to
about a dozen. I get the impression that Cornell has similar numbers.
Certainly the selectivity plays a big role in insuring that the placement
rate is high. A big part of the applications process is justifying why
you specifically want a degree in Medieval Studies. If the committee
thinks you're looking for a backdoor into the English or French or German
department they'll toss your application into the "thank you for applying"
bin. That tends to mean that the people who come here already have
something that differentiates them, something makes them worth looking at
from a hiring perspective.
> : I'm afraid you've also missed my second point. There are certain things
> : you absolutely _cannot_ do within the current structure of
> : discipline-specific academic departments. (...)
> No disagreement here--I wasn't missing your point so much as reformulating
> my own. For the sort of specialized field of study that lies outside
> traditional disciplines (such as your own research into Islamic Spain),
> Medieval Studies is a great idea. But the various posters asking about
> medieval studies graduate opportunities should also be aware that
> discipline-specific departments and programs can satisfy many of their
> needs as well. Someone interested in medieval poetry would, IMHO, do
> better to apply to a specific national literature department or a
> comparative literature program than to look around at a Medieval Studies
> program. Someone interested in alchemy, OTOH, does seem like a natural
> candidate for Medieval Studies (although there are History and Sociology
> of Science departments that could handle the job).
Exactly right again. Medieval Studies programs should be for people who
are interested in doing something that can't be done, or can be done only
poorly, within the context of a discipline-specific department. There are
several fields of history, certain aspects of philosophy and theology, and
particular geographic areas this fully applies to. There are also some
approaches to literature that benefit from the interdisciplinary training
Medieval Studies can offer. That's pretty much it. If you want to study
Chaucer's rhyme scheme, you're much better off in an English Department.
If you want to study the way Arabic learning influenced Chaucer's writing
(vide, _The Matter of Araby in Medieval England_ by Dorothy Metlitzki)
then you might be better off in a Medieval Studies program.
> Ultimately, I think our positions are complementary. Persons who wish to
> pursue a graduate course of study in a medieval topic of their choosing
> should do their homework and try to line their specific interests up with
> the resources and personnel of the various programs, interdisciplinary and
> discipline-specific, out there. A program's reputation is ultimately less
> important than the quality of its library and of its faculty and advising.
That's actually very good advice for anyone who's thinking of doing
graudate study in any discipline. You've got to weigh more than just a
program's supposed reputation. There are many more factors that should go
into the decision to apply to a certain graduate school. A great
reputation is nice when your parents talk to the neighbors, but if it
isn't backed-up with great advising, resources, and faculty, and if your
academic interests aren't in synch with those things, you'll suffer.
H.D. Miller
Kathryn M. Talarico
Distribution:
:H.D. Miller (hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu) wrote:
[snip of good discussion]
: Exactly. Hiring is departmentally based, so you need sufficient training
: to be able to work in a specific department. But, if you're properly
: interdisciplinary there'll be no problem, since theoretically you'll be
: well trained in two or more disciplines.
: I feel pretty confident I could get a job in either History or Near
: Eastern Languages, although I consider History to be the one most closely
: allied to what I do. The point of this self-referential statement is that
: I'm properly trained in two fields, but only because I was in an
: interdisciplinary program that gave me the opportunity to receive that
: training.
: A secondary point of that statement, and one of my pet peeves, is that the
: current divisions between the academic disciplines sometimes seem
: arbitrary and illogical.
: 1. Christians living in Medieval Iberia = History department.
: 2. Muslims living in Medieval Iberia = Near Eastern department.
: 3. Catalan = Spanish Department
: 4. Occitan = French Department
: 5. Averroes and Avicenna = Philosophy
: 6. Ibn Rushd and Ibn Sina = Near Eastern
: 7. Latin = Classics
: 8. Medieval Latin = ??
To answer your question marks, above, the Medieval Latinist at NYU is
in the English department!
There is another question in all of this as well: Medieval Studies
programs (at the graduate level, at the very least) would need to
incorporate subjects and methodologies that are interdisciplinary:
paleography and archive work, for instance. And these areas are not
easily "housed" in traditional departments, since they cross over many
departmental interests.
There is precious little in the US to help in that area, and many
(literary) medievalists need to go to the IRHT (Institut de Recherche et
d'Histoire des Textes) in Parisin order to get the
professional help of those trained at the Ecole des Chartes.
Kathryn Talarico
Susan Carroll-Clark
Robert Barrett wrote in message <7ggm9o$3i8$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>A potential problem with the University of Toronto
>for American students is the lack of tuition waivers for foreign students;
>when I was accepted there in 1991, the stipend offered me quickly dwindled
>to $2K per year after tuition. I think that buys a refrigerator box in
>downtown Toronto. I'd be interested in knowing if the tuition waiver
>situation is still an ongoing problem with Canadian universities. The
I'm just finishing my doctorate at Toronto. Yes, the fee waiver thing is
still an ongoing problem. They did finally wisen up and actually lowered
fees for foreign students a couple of years ago, but the funding problems at
U of T make any money tight. Masters' students in History as a rule don't
get funding now, unless they line up outside source money (which is
difficult to get if you're not at least a landed immigrant). There's *no
way* I could ever have afforded to finish my degree had I not married a
Canadian (and no, we didn't marry just so I could get lower fees :-), and
gotten landed status.
It's not so much that the tuition is high for foreign students there (last I
checked, it was in the $9000 CDN a year range), but that funding packages
are more difficult to obtain in general, there's a real dogfight for
TAships, foreign students don't qualify for the big-ticket government
grants, the cost of living in Toronto is sky-high, and it's difficult for a
foreign student to be able to get work off-campus (10% unemployment rate in
Toronto, not to mention difficulties in getting permission to work).
Other than that, Toronto is a wonderful place to live, and the university
and program itself is top-rate.
Susan
Paul J Gans
>In article <7gg84f$1kn$2...@news.panix.com>, Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
[...]
>> But you've answered a slightly different question. My point
>> was to show the difference between a departmentally
>> based degree and one that can be more broad. YOur experience
>> agrees with that. Kathy's point was that being broadly
>> trained in medieval studies wasn't enough because most
>> hiring is departmentally based, as you also noted.
>>
>> Both of you agree that one needs enough detailed training
>> in order to be hired by an English department or a History
>> department (not to mention a French department, which is
>> Kathy's field.) I agree with that too.
>Exactly. Hiring is departmentally based, so you need sufficient training
>to be able to work in a specific department. But, if you're properly
>interdisciplinary there'll be no problem, since theoretically you'll be
>well trained in two or more disciplines.
Yes.
>I feel pretty confident I could get a job in either History or Near
>Eastern Languages, although I consider History to be the one most closely
>allied to what I do. The point of this self-referential statement is that
>I'm properly trained in two fields, but only because I was in an
>interdisciplinary program that gave me the opportunity to receive that
>training.
This is the important point.
>A secondary point of that statement, and one of my pet peeves, is that the
>current divisions between the academic disciplines sometimes seem
>arbitrary and illogical.
>1. Christians living in Medieval Iberia = History department.
>2. Muslims living in Medieval Iberia = Near Eastern department.
>3. Catalan = Spanish Department
>4. Occitan = French Department
>5. Averroes and Avicenna = Philosophy
>6. Ibn Rushd and Ibn Sina = Near Eastern
>7. Latin = Classics
>8. Medieval Latin = ??
>What happens when something comes along that doesn't fit into these
>supposedly neat academic divisions? Everyone either goes crazy, or else
>they all ignore what they see as inconsistent or difficult. The classic
>example is the kharjas, the romance language envois at the end of some
>Arabic muwashshahat. For nearly 50 years, since the kharjas were first
>"discovered," the Romance scholars have been studying only the four lines
>of the kharjas, ignoring the 24 lines of Classical Arabic that preceeded
>them in the poems. Likewise the Arabists studied the Arabic body while
>ignoring the Romance-language endings. The reason was that neither group
>was properly trained to deal with both halves of the whole. Their academic
>training, provided along strict disciplinary lines, was insufficient. So
>this crazy bi-polar system of analysis existed, and still largely exists,
>in which the two halves of a single coherent work of art must be studied
>in isolation from each other. Only recently have scholars come along who
>are prepared to deal with the muwashshahat as a whole unit.
>And that's one of the many reasons why Medieval Studies and other
>interdisciplinary programs exist, to provide the training to people who
>want to work in the gray area between various academic disciplines.
I could not agree more. One could add my field, medieval
technology, to the list. What department studies that?
We've had two specialists here at NYU over the years.
The first, George Saliba (whom you may know), focussed on
Islamic contributions to western science and technology.
He's now at Columbia. The other was David King, now at
Frankfurt, also an Islamicist.
Thanks to David, I've finally been put onto some books
in English that I can reference for medieval Islamic
technology. References in Arabic are useless for the vast
bulk of English-speaking students who might be curious.
The point is that there is no department for medieval technology.
Chemistry, my own department naturally is not at all interested.
Nor is physics. History can't even quite understand what
technology is, and no language department has any interest at
all.
Luckily, it was easy for our Medieval Studies Program to see
that medieval technology *was* important, and so a course
now exists where otherwise none would.
Sharon Goetz
fryk...@olypen.com says...
> No one has had much to say (well, at least no one has said much) about these
> programs in the US. Am I asking the wrong question? One reference book on
> university programs identified only seven or eight universities in the whole
> country which off master's level programs in "Medieval & Ren. Studies" and
> most were on the east coast. Then there were Western Mich. and one in
> southern Calif. (Santa Barbara?).
UC Berkeley offers a combined PhD in Medieval Studies, but I think they
(we) got rid of the terminal MA some time ago. Also, the combined part
means one applies to one of the standard departments (history, English,
comp lit, French, German, etc.) and then does some extra work to achieve
the combined degree. See http://ishi.lib.berkeley.edu/medieval
sharon
--
Please remove the X from my address if you want to send me
reasonable email.
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> To answer your question marks, above, the Medieval Latinist at NYU is
> in the English department!
Ah, well, that makes sense...
Tony
Frances Kemmish
> I could not agree more. One could add my field, medieval
> technology, to the list. What department studies that?
> We've had two specialists here at NYU over the years.
> The first, George Saliba (whom you may know), focussed on
> Islamic contributions to western science and technology.
> He's now at Columbia. The other was David King, now at
> Frankfurt, also an Islamicist.
>
> Thanks to David, I've finally been put onto some books
> in English that I can reference for medieval Islamic
> technology. References in Arabic are useless for the vast
> bulk of English-speaking students who might be curious.
>
> The point is that there is no department for medieval technology.
> Chemistry, my own department naturally is not at all interested.
> Nor is physics. History can't even quite understand what
> technology is, and no language department has any interest at
> all.
It is a problem for historians of technology everywhere. I have a
friend, who was one of the last History of Technology PhDs at Yale which
closed its program about ten years ago. She has occasionally taught a
course in History of Technology in the Economics Department at Yale, but
the students had to be taught how to use historical sources, and they
tended to concentrate on economic history, and forget the technology.
Fran
D. Spencer Hines
I tend to agree with you.
Part of the problem is that Historians of Technology have had
difficulties in:
1. Explaining what they do, to a General Audience --- at times, even
to an Academic Audience.
2. Writing well and truly, for a Generally Educated Audience.
3. Showing a Generally Educated Audience why the History of
Technology is important. It cannot be taught coherently from a
'social studies' perspective.
4. The recent book on 'Longitude', by Dava Sobel, was superb.
_Longitude: The True Story of a Lone Genius Who Solved the Greatest
Scientific Problem of His Time_ Dava Sobel, Paperback, 175 pp.
ISBN: 0140258795, Publisher: Viking Penguin, Publication Date:
September 1996. It was extremely well-written, short and readable.
And, it had a good sense of the dramatic and how to tell a story.
5. One of the major problems with much History of Technology is that
the writing is so atrocious and opaque.
6. Then, too, we have folks who want to take the 'History' out of
History of Technology, which is keeping the skin and throwing away the
orange.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Fortem Posce Animum
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
Frances Kemmish <arc...@iconn.net> wrote in message
news:372C9751...@iconn.net...
Laura Blanchard
>
> It is a problem for historians of technology everywhere. I have a
> friend, who was one of the last History of Technology PhDs at Yale which
> closed its program about ten years ago. She has occasionally taught a
> course in History of Technology in the Economics Department at Yale, but
> the students had to be taught how to use historical sources, and they
> tended to concentrate on economic history, and forget the technology.
>
There's a good program at Toronto -- the Institute for the History and
Philosophy of Science and Technology.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
Debbie Foisy
Susan Carroll-Clark wrote in message
<7ghu4l$fjv$1...@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>still an ongoing problem. They did finally wisen up and actually lowered
>fees for foreign students a couple of years ago, but the funding problems
at
year, it wasn't that big a drop there. Was it much at U of T?
>U of T make any money tight. Masters' students in History as a rule don't
>get funding now, unless they line up outside source money (which is
>
>
am thinking of going back not this fall but next, for my Masters. I THINK
York is a little less dear, and that will be a stretch. Don't know if I can
handle it. U of T certainly has the best medieval studies in the country
though, as far as know, yes?
Deb
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> I could not agree more. One could add my field, medieval
>> technology, to the list. What department studies that?
>> We've had two specialists here at NYU over the years.
>> The first, George Saliba (whom you may know), focussed on
>> Islamic contributions to western science and technology.
>> He's now at Columbia. The other was David King, now at
>> Frankfurt, also an Islamicist.
>>
>> Thanks to David, I've finally been put onto some books
>> in English that I can reference for medieval Islamic
>> technology. References in Arabic are useless for the vast
>> bulk of English-speaking students who might be curious.
>>
>> The point is that there is no department for medieval technology.
>> Chemistry, my own department naturally is not at all interested.
>> Nor is physics. History can't even quite understand what
>> technology is, and no language department has any interest at
>> all.
>It is a problem for historians of technology everywhere. I have a
>friend, who was one of the last History of Technology PhDs at Yale which
>closed its program about ten years ago. She has occasionally taught a
>course in History of Technology in the Economics Department at Yale, but
>the students had to be taught how to use historical sources, and they
>tended to concentrate on economic history, and forget the technology.
Curiously, economists seem to have a great interest in medieval
technology. Several books on economic history have proved
very useful to me, including books by Joel Mokyr and Georges
Duby (though Duby was not an economist).
Also curious is the fact that most medieval historians pay
little attention to economics.
---- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Paul J Gans
>Frances Kemmish wrote:
>>
>> It is a problem for historians of technology everywhere. I have a
>> friend, who was one of the last History of Technology PhDs at Yale which
>> closed its program about ten years ago. She has occasionally taught a
>> course in History of Technology in the Economics Department at Yale, but
>> the students had to be taught how to use historical sources, and they
>> tended to concentrate on economic history, and forget the technology.
>>
>There's a good program at Toronto -- the Institute for the History and
>Philosophy of Science and Technology.
>Regards,
>Laura Blanchard
>lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
Well, that's because one of the world's leading historians
of technology is at Toronto.
---- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panixl.com]
Carl Edlund Anderson
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
> Accept no substitutes for Ph.D.'s in Medieval History --- not Medieval
> Studies.
However, if one does not wish to be a medieval historian, a degree in
medieval history is not recommended ;)
Cheers,
Carl
--
Carl Edlund Anderson
Dept. of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, & Celtic
St. John's College, University of Cambridge
mailto:ce...@cus.cam.ac.uk
http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~carl/
Carl Edlund Anderson
hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu (H.D. Miller) wrote:
> The idea that in order for one to be a Real Medieval Historian one must
> study history, and only history, to the exclusion of all other disciplines
> is ridiculous, and not a little wrong-headed (maybe even infantile when
> expressed by certain people). Certainly one must study history in order
> to be a historian, but there's no law that says one may not go beyond that
> discipline after one has acquired a certain level of competency. Likewise,
> there are particular fields of history, (History of Medicine, History of
> Mathematics, Byzantine History, Islamic History) that by their very nature
> require a high degree of competency in another discipline. This is where
> Medieval Studies programs are strongest, and offer the strongest argument
> for interdisciplinarity.
Amen.
Carl Edlund Anderson
rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
> The perception is that Ivy
> Leaguers are on the fast track, that they're research-oriented, that
> they're likely to bolt for a more prestigious, less service- and
> teaching-oriented job in a few years. I've been told that Southern
> schools are less than eager to take Penn students and that my
> undergraduate study in Texas will help me get a second-look next year on
> the market.
Which is silly, too. I'm an ex-Ivy undergrad, and I suppose Cambridge
is in that kind of scene in the UK, but while I like my research I'm really
keen to do undergrad education, and continuing ed stuff as well. Sadly,
smaller schools probably don't want medieval Scandinavianists anyway :P
Cheers,
Carl
Chris Price
> <snip>
>
> I could not agree more. One could add my field, medieval technology,
> to the list. What department studies that? We've had two specialists
> here at NYU over the years.
> The first, George Saliba (whom you may know), focussed on Islamic
> contributions to western science and technology. He's now at
> Columbia. The other was David King, now at Frankfurt, also an
> Islamicist.
>
> Thanks to David, I've finally been put onto some books in English that
> I can reference for medieval Islamic technology. References in Arabic
> are useless for the vast bulk of English-speaking students who might
> be curious.
>
> The point is that there is no department for medieval technology.
> Chemistry, my own department naturally is not at all interested. Nor
> is physics. History can't even quite understand what technology is,
> and no language department has any interest at all.
>
> Luckily, it was easy for our Medieval Studies Program to see that
> medieval technology *was* important, and so a course now exists where
> otherwise none would.
>
I am by no means a specialisy in medieval technology, but one question
that bothers me about studies of medieval technology - or indeed most
medieval studies outside the main stream of 'medieval history' - is that
I am not sure that the basic archival research is being done. Many of
the books discussed in this group seem to depend on re-synthesising
secondary sources of questionable validity.
I also know that my one personal venture into this area - looking into
the history of river improvements in England in the 17th and 18th
centuries - showed me that most of the standard works relied on one or
two basic references for each river, which were just repeated from book
to book, and that any attempt to show what had actually happened - as
opposed to noting the passage of an Act of Parliament - would require
trawling through an enormous amount of local material - 90% of it
unpublished and un-indexed - looking for references to the river in
question.
Is anyone doing this for the medieval material? For example, in the case
of river navigation, it was clear that rivers had been used for
centuries - possibly millenia - for the transport of goods but that
there was virtually no published evidence for it, with the possible
exception of the Thames and Severn.
Who is working on this? I believe some work is being done in France, but
I've no idea what, or by whom.
Until it is done though, it seems to me that all studies of medieval
technology will rest on a very narrow and unstable base of evidence. In
particular the evidence for the deployment of the technology will be
lacking.
Chris Price
frykholm
frykholm wrote in message ...
>Any opinions out there (HA!) about the best place in the western or
mid-west
>USA to pursue a master's degree in Medieval Studies?
Many thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread. You have
given me much to think about, and pointed out important considerations I
will need to make.
Sandy Frykholm
Susan Carroll-Clark
Debbie Foisy wrote in message ...
>I saw the reduction in prices at Carleton University in Ottawa for this
>year, it wasn't that big a drop there. Was it much at U of T?
A couple thousand or so. I believe tuition for foreign students was up over
$12,000 a year, and it's dropped down below $10,000 now. Still higher than
the foreign-student fees were when I started in 1990. Of course, tuition
for *everyone else* in grad school at U of T has doubled in that period.
(Have they called that election yet? I'm still technically an Ontario
resident, and would love to express my displeasure with these fee increases
:-)
>>grants, the cost of living in Toronto is sky-high,
>I'll say. I am back here in Toronto after having been away for 27 years.
I
>am thinking of going back not this fall but next, for my Masters. I THINK
>York is a little less dear, and that will be a stretch. Don't know if I
can
>handle it. U of T certainly has the best medieval studies in the country
>though, as far as know, yes?
Definitely. York has a friendlier "feel" overall (my husband went there for
part of his bachelors') and is a better environment for TAs. But the
programs there tilt towards modern history severely, although they do run
some exchange seminars with U of T. There aren't many places, period, that
you're going to get the quality of Latin instruction and courses like
palaeography and diplomatics you do at Toronto. And I have only good things
to say about the courses, the instructors, and the libraries. I think the
difference in tuition is probably worth it if you're serious and you can
manage to support yourself while you're there.
Susan
Brian M. Scott
> Sadly,
> smaller schools probably don't want medieval Scandinavianists anyway :P
Nor Scandinavian archaeologists: my sister found out the hard way, I'm
afraid.
Brian M. Scott
Paul J Gans
>Chris Price
What you say has much truth to it. It makes studying
medieval technology a far more complex and difficult
area than *mere* history... ;-)
The primary problem is that nobody ever (until modern
times) wrote down much about technology. Further, since
often (particularly in the Middle Ages) those who wrote
were far removed in class from those who strove, what
they did write was often inaccurate and out of date.
For example, by the time magnets are first mentioned
they had doubtless been around for a long time -- long
enough even for literatti to have heard of them. (Yes,
I'm somewhat overstating that, but the point is valid.)
So what constitutes evidence? Most of it comes from
literary sources, archaeology, and art. Chronicles are
of limited use. Very valuable are farm inventories and
port records, whose use was pioneered by the French school
started by Braudel.
This is difficult material to work with. For example,
pulleys have been known seemingly forever, well back
into the classical period if not earlier. But compound
pulleys (those with more than one wheel in the block)
are a difficult story. I know of NO medieval manuscripts
that mention them and there are, as far as I know, NO
illustrations of them (and I have looked). The first
clear picture of a compound pulley is early renaissance
(and shows a siege tower being pulled toward a castle
wall by a fairly complex set of ropes and pulleys.)
Can we then conclude that the compound pulley did not
exist in the Middle Ages? No, we cannot. Would an
artist *know* the difference between a simple and
a compound pulley? Pictorial accuracy was not part
of the medieval artists mind-set. We know that ropes,
reigns, etc., are often omitted from pictures.
What we *do* have is a very clear mention of compound
pulleys in Vitruvius. And we know that the medievals
read Vitruvius in every era. So if I had to bet, I'd
bet that the medievals knew of this bit of Roman (or
pre-Roman technology).
That's just one example. Another is magnets. The first
clear reference to a magnet (as opposed to a compass)
that has been found is in the _Roman d'Eneas_, dating
from the mid-12th century. It does not turn up in
another context seemingly until 1230 in a manuscript
written by the (then) bishop of Paris.
The problem with what you term "basic archival research"
is clear. There are no medieval manuscripts devoted
even in part to technology. One must be serendipitous.
And (as you say) there are only a very few folks out there
doing anything along these lines. And evidence of deployment
is difficult.
Nevertheless, work does go on. Some of it is clear, such
as stirrups, which have been studied intensively. Other
areas, such as the invention of and deployment of the
wheelbarrow are much more problematic.
So yes, this is an almost virgin area and a great
opportunity for students with even a slight technical
bent.
Tilmann Chladek
> Curiously, economists seem to have a great interest in medieval
> technology. Several books on economic history have proved
> very useful to me, including books by Joel Mokyr and Georges
> Duby (though Duby was not an economist).
>
> Also curious is the fact that most medieval historians pay
> little attention to economics.
Two notable exceptions (if they are exceptions) come to my mind: Aren't
Henri Pirenne and Jacques LeGoff historians who wrote rather extensively
about economy in the Middle Ages?
On the other hand, I do not know how many of their books have been
translated into English.
--
Tilmann Chladek
Paul J Gans
Yes. Most if not all of their books are available in
English. Pirenne is a bit dated now, but LeGoff is,
in my opinion, excellent.
But my opinion still stands. One can read a lot of
medieval history and find almost nothing on the
sources of wealth, tax policy, subsidies, etc. etc.,
and their effects.
There are also very few books dealing with wage-price
relations during the Middle Ages. Such information
would be very very interesting. Of course, such
data is very hard to come by, but even so...
D. Spencer Hines
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
H.D. Miller <hdmi...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:hdmiller-010...@remote3-arap53.cis.yale.edu...
<snip>
> This is _not_ true. 19 of the last 21 PhDs awarded in Medieval
Studies
> here at Yale are currently employed in the field, either as
professors or
> as medieval manuscript curators. And of the two who aren't, one is
Judith
> Tarr, the historical-fantasy novelist.
<snip>
You've never told us what happened to the 21st --- the one who is
neither a professor, a curator, or a fantasy novelist.
D. Spencer Hines
Yes, if more books of the caliber of Dava Sobel's _Longitude: The True
Story of a Lone Genius Who Solved the Greatest Scientific Problem of
His Time_ were being written by Historians of Technology and Science,
there would be a great deal less whining from their ranks that no one
appreciates them or their work.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:...
> Vide infra.
>
> I tend to agree with you.
>
> Part of the problem is that Historians of Technology have had
> difficulties in:
>
> 1. Explaining what they do, to a General Audience --- at times,
even
> to an Academic Audience.
>
> 2. Writing well and truly, for a Generally Educated Audience.
>
> 3. Showing a Generally Educated Audience why the History of
> Technology is important. It cannot be taught coherently from a
> 'social studies' perspective.
>
> 4. The recent book on 'Longitude', by Dava Sobel, was superb.
> _Longitude: The True Story of a Lone Genius Who Solved the Greatest
> Scientific Problem of His Time_ Dava Sobel, Paperback, 175 pp.
> ISBN: 0140258795, Publisher: Viking Penguin, Publication Date:
> September 1996. It was extremely well-written, short and readable.
> And, it had a good sense of the dramatic and how to tell a story.
>
> 5. One of the major problems with much History of Technology is
that
> the writing is so atrocious and opaque.
>
> 6. Then, too, we have folks who want to take the 'History' out of
> History of Technology, which is keeping the skin and throwing away
the
> orange.
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas
> Fortem Posce Animum
> --
>
> D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
> neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them
under
> their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to
St.
> Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
>
> Frances Kemmish <arc...@iconn.net> wrote in message
> news:372C9751...@iconn.net...
> > Paul J Gans wrote:
> >
> > > I could not agree more. One could add my field, medieval
> > > technology, to the list. What department studies that?
> > > We've had two specialists here at NYU over the years.
> > > The first, George Saliba (whom you may know), focussed on
> > > Islamic contributions to western science and technology.
> > > He's now at Columbia. The other was David King, now at
> > > Frankfurt, also an Islamicist.
> > >
> > > Thanks to David, I've finally been put onto some books
> > > in English that I can reference for medieval Islamic
> > > technology. References in Arabic are useless for the vast
> > > bulk of English-speaking students who might be curious.
> > >
> > > The point is that there is no department for medieval
technology.
> > > Chemistry, my own department naturally is not at all interested.
> > > Nor is physics. History can't even quite understand what
> > > technology is, and no language department has any interest at
> > > all.
> >
> > It is a problem for historians of technology everywhere. I have a
> > friend, who was one of the last History of Technology PhDs at Yale
> which
> > closed its program about ten years ago. She has occasionally
taught
> a
> > course in History of Technology in the Economics Department at
Yale,
> but
> > the students had to be taught how to use historical sources, and
> they
> > tended to concentrate on economic history, and forget the
> technology.
> >
> > Fran
Frances Kemmish
>
> >>
> The problem with what you term "basic archival research"
> is clear. There are no medieval manuscripts devoted
> even in part to technology. One must be serendipitous.
> And (as you say) there are only a very few folks out there
> doing anything along these lines. And evidence of deployment
> is difficult.
>
> Nevertheless, work does go on. Some of it is clear, such
> as stirrups, which have been studied intensively. Other
> areas, such as the invention of and deployment of the
> wheelbarrow are much more problematic.
>
> So yes, this is an almost virgin area and a great
> opportunity for students with even a slight technical
> bent.
Even in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, there are relatively
few documents dealing with purely technological subjects. The evidence
appears piecemeal among personal letters, and lawsuits, and land
transfers.
I spend most of my working life reading archival material from
nineteenth century Connecticut, looking for information about the iron
industry, and have to read many pages of mothers exhorting their
children to pay attention to their lessons, and students begging their
parents for money, in order, occasionally, to find a reference to the
dam being washed away in the middle of the night.
I find that some of the people for whom I have done this research have
no idea that such material exists, or that it is worth examining. One of
the responses to the NSF grant application which is funding my work even
stated that we would not find any useful documentary evidence. There is
obviously a great deal of work to be done just introducing the idea of
the importance of archival research to a wider audience.
Fran
erilar
mine, too. At the University of Minnesota my M.A. work was split between
English(Old English, history of language), Scandinavian(Old Norse lang.,
lit, lang. history, structure), German(both Old and Middle High language,
lit, lang. history) and Classics(medieval Latin). Hardly a one-department
major;-) And I know there are places that let people put together unusual
combinations.
Mary
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar)
Germanic philologist, medieval enthusiast, K9TUD and lots of other stuff
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo
Dana093056
History as well as a certificate in Medieval Studies. This is what I opted to
do. I had to take extra courses in medieval disciplines outside of history,
and at least one of the readers on my dissertation committee had to be a
professor in the Medieval Studies certificate program. Thus, I am a REAL
MEDIEVAL HISTORIAN, but I also have a very good grounding in many other
important medieval disciplines, which to my mind only serves to strengthen my
teaching and researching skills.
Before I went to CUNY, I also did an interdisciplinary Humanities M.A. at Old
Dominion University, where I specialized in Medieval and Renaissance Studies.
This has made me a "wanted" person at my school, because I can teach in our
humanities program as well as in the history department.
Dana Sample
Hampton University
Dana Sample
Hampton University
D. Spencer Hines
I, for one, am delighted that you are a REAL MEDIEVAL HISTORIAN, not
just a Real Medieval Historian or worse, a run-of-the-mill real
medieval historian --- or shamefully, a mere 'medievalist'.
The fact that you hold a certificate in Medieval Studies is delightful
too.
Congratulations.
Sincerely,
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
Dana093056 <dana0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990502195405...@ng36.aol.com...
Chris Price
> <snip>
>
> The problem with what you term "basic archival research" is clear.
> There are no medieval manuscripts devoted even in part to technology.
> One must be serendipitous.
> And (as you say) there are only a very few folks out there doing
> anything along these lines. And evidence of deployment is difficult.
>
> Nevertheless, work does go on. Some of it is clear, such as stirrups,
> which have been studied intensively. Other areas, such as the
> invention of and deployment of the
> wheelbarrow are much more problematic.
>
> So yes, this is an almost virgin area and a great opportunity for
> students with even a slight technical bent.
>
I am well aware of the problems of working with archives, having spent,
at one time, many dusty hours in the Northants Record Office.
However, coming back to the subject of this thread, it is this gap that
bothers me with regard to Medieval Studies in general, and Medieval
Technology in particular, compared to standard (i.e. political) Medieval
History. With standard history I can see a clear continuum between the
sources available and the studies appropriate to each level from, say,
first-year undergraduate through to advanced research. With Medieval
technology I can see how it is possible to teach an interesting and
worth-while undergraduate course, and also where the advanced research
is needed. However, I can also see an awful gap at the graduate student
stage, particularly in the USA where the "raw" archives are not
available.
How is this filled?
Chris Price
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> The problem with what you term "basic archival research" is clear.
>> There are no medieval manuscripts devoted even in part to technology.
>> One must be serendipitous.
>> And (as you say) there are only a very few folks out there doing
>> anything along these lines. And evidence of deployment is difficult.
>>
>> Nevertheless, work does go on. Some of it is clear, such as stirrups,
>> which have been studied intensively. Other areas, such as the
>> invention of and deployment of the
>> wheelbarrow are much more problematic.
>>
>> So yes, this is an almost virgin area and a great opportunity for
>> students with even a slight technical bent.
>>
>I am well aware of the problems of working with archives, having spent,
>at one time, many dusty hours in the Northants Record Office.
>However, coming back to the subject of this thread, it is this gap that
>bothers me with regard to Medieval Studies in general, and Medieval
>Technology in particular, compared to standard (i.e. political) Medieval
>History. With standard history I can see a clear continuum between the
>sources available and the studies appropriate to each level from, say,
>first-year undergraduate through to advanced research. With Medieval
>technology I can see how it is possible to teach an interesting and
>worth-while undergraduate course, and also where the advanced research
>is needed. However, I can also see an awful gap at the graduate student
>stage, particularly in the USA where the "raw" archives are not
>available.
>How is this filled?
About the only place in North America that does graduate
work in anything resembling technology is the University
of Toronto. Most of the PhD research is in areas that
have already, to some extent, been explored. And most
of those are in military technology (which, contrary to
my statement above, does exist in contemporary medieval
manuscripts).
What is done is that students simply have to spend time
in Europe. That's the case for students of medieval
history as well. With exceptions the manuscripts are
on your side of the big water, not ours.
Technology isn't the only area. The problem is this:
"pure history" gives only a fraction of the story and
a distorted one at that. For western Europe after say
1000 AD, we *have* the king lists, we know all the
major battles and we have an overview of the politics.
But if we want access to the actual conditions of how
people lived, their "everyday life" if you will, history
and its sources tells us very little. And, I submit,
one can't really understand the history unless one
understands the "everyday life" part.
Put another way, the "pure history" is the easy part.
Even something as simple as weapons, battle tactics,
and training methods are not directly available to us.
Another problem is the reliance of what I will call
(with no pejorative intent) on manuscripts. There
are many other sources of information, many difficult
to deal with. But all the easy stuff has already been
done, a statement all graduate students will recognize
as having always been true... ;-)
Chris Price
> <snip>
> About the only place in North America that does graduate work in
This, I suspect, is where my conceptual difficulties arise. Much of what
in the USA seems to fall under 'Medieval Studies' would, I think, fall
into 'Local History' in the UK.And this, to a large extent, seems to be
an area where the amateur is still predominant, even though it has been
taken up as an academic study in recent decades. And it is an area where
intimate knowledge of the ground can make up for lack of training in,
say, medieval Latin. And it is also an area where the pioneers (I am
thinking particularly of Professors Finberg and Hoskins), although
trained historians, started off as hobbyists in local history, but
advanced theories based on their local studies which have had a
considerable effect on 'mainstream' history (I am thinking of Prof.
Finberg's work on the continuation between Roman estate and Saxon
estate/parish in Gloucestershire [Lucerna 1954?] and Prof. Hoskin's work
on Devonshire parishes and, later, on family migration in
Leicestershire).
Thus my (British) experience is that historical research is something
that is open to all, and which is done by amateurs as well as
professionals. Of whom, a few do it superbly, a number do it
competently, and the majority merely dabble.
Chris Price
Jonathan W Hendry
best schools with medieval studies programs.
Since many of us are under geographical constraints, it
would be useful to have a list of *all* schools with
medieval studies programs, perhaps with some notes
on each school's program. It might even be useful,
if off-topic for shm, to include schools with programs
which study contemporaneous non-European cultures.
A) Does such a list exist?
B) Would such a list be worth creating, perhaps on a website?
Captain Wolf
: I think the original poster on this thread asked about the
If people are willing to help me compile such a list, I would be more
than happy to see to its hosting.
I can be reached at:
capta...@monarchy.modusvarious.com
Have a good one, folks.
Wolf
--
May the Lords of Luck and Chance be always at your side, and may your hand
always be a winner.
Captain Wolf
Laura Blanchard
[snip]
> Since many of us are under geographical constraints, it
> would be useful to have a list of *all* schools with
> medieval studies programs, perhaps with some notes
> on each school's program. It might even be useful,
> if off-topic for shm, to include schools with programs
> which study contemporaneous non-European cultures.
>
> A) Does such a list exist?
It's been done for the U.S., with the exception of the "contemporaneous
non-European cultures" part, by the Medieval Academy's committee on
centers and regional associations (CARA). See the Medieval Academy's web
site at http://www.georgetown.edu/MedievalAcademy/ for links.
Such centers in areas outside the U.S. occasionally e-mail me and ask to
be included on the professional organizations page at The Labyrinth.
Rather than go through a big exercise ("are you an organization? are you
a center? what's the difference?"), I simply add them. I've toyed with
the idea of doing a separate "centers" page in that Labyrinth
subsection, but realize that it would be such a duplication with the
CARA pages that it could turn into an administrative nightmare for all
concerned. Which is a roundabout way of saying "check
http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/professional/organizations/ because
there are some non-U.S. centers listed there."
> B) Would such a list be worth creating, perhaps on a website?
You might want to look at the two URLs listed above and think about how
much else needs to be done. Possibly a supplementary page to cover any
lacunae. (Although I'd check the web sites of some major non-U.S. medren
centers to see if they've done it for their countries or areas before
embarking on *that* voyage.) But I know that Bob Bjork and his crew try
to update the CARA page annually from a questionnaire, and in between as
they get info. As the person who spent more evenings than I care to
count setting up the CARA pages back in ?1995?1996?, I can assure you
that you *don't* want to duplicate that effort if you don't have to.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
Laura Blanchard
> : A) Does such a list exist?
> : B) Would such a list be worth creating, perhaps on a website?
> If people are willing to help me compile such a list, I would be more
> than happy to see to its hosting.
See
http://www.asu.edu/clas/acmrs/cara.html
http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/professional/organizations/
...before starting this project. I've explained elsewhere on this
thread, I think.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
Jonathan W Hendry
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
<snip>
> >
> > A) Does such a list exist?
> It's been done for the U.S., with the exception of the "contemporaneous
> non-European cultures" part, by the Medieval Academy's committee on
> centers and regional associations (CARA). See the Medieval Academy's web
> site at http://www.georgetown.edu/MedievalAcademy/ for links.
Excellent! Thanks.
[High-quality, high-content, non-vituperative ;) text snipped]
Captain Wolf
: Captain Wolf wrote:
: > : A) Does such a list exist?
: > : B) Would such a list be worth creating, perhaps on a website?
: > If people are willing to help me compile such a list, I would be more
: > than happy to see to its hosting.
: See
: http://www.asu.edu/clas/acmrs/cara.html
: http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/professional/organizations/
: ...before starting this project. I've explained elsewhere on this
: thread, I think.
Thank you, Laura. I agree that extraneous(sp) duplication of effort is an
unnecessary waste of time. I have little enough as it is, especially as I
am webmaster (on an unpaid volunteer basis) for a non-profit organization.
That being said, I would still be happy to arrange hosting for such things
as the FAQ on Midieval [blast, I just can't spell today and I have NO
dictionary at hand] "Urban" Myths <G>.
I can *still* <G> be reached at:
Paul J Gans
[...]
>This, I suspect, is where my conceptual difficulties arise. Much of what
>in the USA seems to fall under 'Medieval Studies' would, I think, fall
>into 'Local History' in the UK.
I don't think this is quite right. U.S. universities are
organized departmentally. To allow for a more flexible
set of courses for students, "programs" were invented. These
are (usually) not offered by any single department and they
dont' have any faculty. What they do is allow the student
to combine things from several different departments.
So if I was interested in, for example, taking courses
in medieval music in France along with courses in
Saints, I could do that in a medieval studies program
but not in either the departments of Music or Religion
(or whomever might offer a course in Saints -- at NYU
it is in the French department.)
>And this, to a large extent, seems to be
>an area where the amateur is still predominant, even though it has been
>taken up as an academic study in recent decades. And it is an area where
>intimate knowledge of the ground can make up for lack of training in,
>say, medieval Latin. And it is also an area where the pioneers (I am
>thinking particularly of Professors Finberg and Hoskins), although
>trained historians, started off as hobbyists in local history, but
>advanced theories based on their local studies which have had a
>considerable effect on 'mainstream' history (I am thinking of Prof.
>Finberg's work on the continuation between Roman estate and Saxon
>estate/parish in Gloucestershire [Lucerna 1954?] and Prof. Hoskin's work
>on Devonshire parishes and, later, on family migration in
>Leicestershire).
I understand what you say here; we have no equivalent
in the U.S., as you can understand.
>Thus my (British) experience is that historical research is something
>that is open to all, and which is done by amateurs as well as
>professionals. Of whom, a few do it superbly, a number do it
>competently, and the majority merely dabble.
That's definitely the case here as well. Some of the best
papers at the Kalamazoo Conference will be given by amateurs.
We tend to call such folks "independent researchers" since
they do not have any university affiliation.
Nobody knows where to classify me. I'm an amateur *with*
a university affiliation. Causes all sorts of fun at
meetings. Folks look at my badge (which says NYU) and
ask what department I'm in. When I say chemistry, eyes
actually bulge out, movie cartoon style.... ;-)
Then I have to explain all over again.
------ Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
Chris Price
> <snip>
>
> I don't think this is quite right. U.S. universities are organized
> departmentally. To allow for a more flexible set of courses for
> students, "programs" were invented. These are (usually) not offered
> by any single department and they dont' have any faculty. What they
> do is allow the student to combine things from several different
> departments.
>
> So if I was interested in, for example, taking courses in medieval
> music in France along with courses in Saints, I could do that in a
> medieval studies program but not in either the departments of Music or
> Religion (or whomever might offer a course in Saints -- at NYU
> it is in the French department.)
>
> <snip>
>
> That's definitely the case here as well. Some of the best papers at
> the Kalamazoo Conference will be given by amateurs. We tend to call
> such folks "independent researchers" since they do not have any
> university affiliation.
>
<snip>
...I was interested in ... taking courses in medieval music in France
along with courses in Saints, I could do that in a medieval studies
program...
This is starting to become possible for some subjects in the UK, or so I
read, but I don't know where, or whether, it is possible in medieval
studies.
Certainly my immediate reaction to "<something> studies" is that there
is a department or institution responsible - such as "The School of
African and Oriental Studies" which is part of London University, and
either geared more to research than teaching, or that it is a
second-rate university looking for a marketing gimmick to increase
student numbers (although this would be more likely in a
business-oriented course - say "Accounting, German, and Computer
Science".
Maybe one of the UK academics could enlighten me.
One thing I am still unclear about is how students in such "mix 'n'
match" courses are examined and graded? Particularly if you have, say,
one student studying, say, Pushtu and Anatomy and another Hagiography
and Architecture?
As a further example of language difference, I would much rather be
called an "amateur" than "independent researcher". The latter would
imply, for me, someone not attached to an organisation but who
researches for money, like the people who offer help with genealogical
research in the small ads of some magazines, next to the ads for private
detectives and help with marital problems.
Chris Price
Laura Blanchard
> As a further example of language difference, I would much rather be
> called an "amateur" than "independent researcher". The latter would
> imply, for me, someone not attached to an organisation but who
> researches for money, like the people who offer help with genealogical
> research in the small ads of some magazines, next to the ads for private
> detectives and help with marital problems.
I would say that this is truly an example of language difference. In the
medieval studies community here in the U.S., an "independent scholar"
(as they're more commonly known) is one who is carrying on the same kind
and caliber of research s/he would if attached to a university, but
laboring under the difficulty of not being funded by an academic
department or various grantmaking bodies. The Medieval Academy of
America is beginning to address this problem with its program of travel
grants for independent scholars. In this community, I might add,
"independent scholar" is generally used to refer to someone who has had
training at the graduate (and usually Ph.D.) level rather than the
autodidact.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
Chris Price
> <snip>
>
> I would say that this is truly an example of language difference. In
> the medieval studies community here in the U.S., an "independent
> scholar" (as they're more commonly known) is one who is carrying on
> the same kind and caliber of research s/he would if attached to a
> university, but laboring under the difficulty of not being funded by
> an academic department or various grantmaking bodies. The Medieval
> Academy of America is beginning to address this problem with its
> program of travel grants for independent scholars. In this community,
> I might add, "independent scholar" is generally used to refer to
> someone who has had training at the graduate (and usually Ph.D.) level
> rather than the autodidact.
For me, "independent scholar" does not have the perjorative overtones of
"independent researcher".
However, I have the impression that here (possibly outside strictly
academic circles) "autodidact" has no perjorative overtones, and
certainly anyone with a reasonable degree from a good university in a
reasonably relevent subject would regard themselves, and probably be
regarded, as perfectly capable of carrying out independent research. If
there were any questions (e.g. over access to archives) it would be as
to whether they were serious i.e. were willing to put in the work
required, rather than their capability.
Certainly I never had any problems, although my research was 17th
century and later.
Chris Price
CG Luxford
On Tue, 4 May 1999, Chris Price wrote:
> Paul J Gans wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> >
> > departmentally.
One would assume that this is the case everywhere, whether or not a
given university also has some other form of organisation.
> > <snip>
> >
> ...I was interested in ... taking courses in medieval music in France
> along with courses in Saints, I could do that in a medieval studies
> program...
>
> This is starting to become possible for some subjects in the UK, or so I
> read, but I don't know where, or whether, it is possible in medieval
> studies.
>
> Certainly my immediate reaction to "<something> studies" is that there
> is a department or institution responsible - such as "The School of
> African and Oriental Studies" which is part of London University, and
> either geared more to research than teaching, or that it is a
> second-rate university looking for a marketing gimmick to increase
> student numbers (although this would be more likely in a
> business-oriented course - say "Accounting, German, and Computer
> Science".
>
> Maybe one of the UK academics could enlighten me.
>
AFIAA, all the Medieval Studies departments in Britain are post-graduate
centres, the academic staff of which are also part of one of the
collaborating departments at that particular university.
Some (eg Bristol) exist in name only with no designated space for sole
use of the centre. Others (eg York) have a building all to themselves.
(One of the few departments at York which does).
I'm not aware of any undergraduate medieval studies courses, though this
doesn't mean that there aren't any.
With the increase in modular teaching structures and joint honours
degree programmes it may be possible in practice to do what is in effect
a medieval studies degree, though I imagine that this would be fairly
tricky, and involve a good deal of lucky co-incidence in the timing of
different modules in the departments concerned.
Chris,
Robert Barrett
Paul J Gans (ga...@panix.com) wrote:
: I don't think this is quite right. U.S. universities are
: organized departmentally. To allow for a more flexible
: set of courses for students, "programs" were invented. These
: are (usually) not offered by any single department and they
: dont' have any faculty. What they do is allow the student
: to combine things from several different departments.
: So if I was interested in, for example, taking courses
: in medieval music in France along with courses in
: Saints, I could do that in a medieval studies program
: but not in either the departments of Music or Religion
: (or whomever might offer a course in Saints -- at NYU
: it is in the French department.)
Just a bit of a clarification here: the English department here at Penn
has never had any problem in approving my taking of courses outside the
department if I can demonstrate intellectual need. My understanding is
that the other humanities departments are similarly flexible. So it may
be possible, even at NYU :), for you to be a Music grad student and still
be able to take a course on Saints' Lives from the French department.
Just making sure that people are aware that discipline-specific structures
aren't as hermetically-sealed and inflexible as has been implied in a
number of posts in the group.
Best,
Rob
--
Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu * World
Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Dept. of
English, Univ. of Pennsylvania * "What makes the muskrat guard his musk?
Courage!" The Cowardly Lion (Bert Lahr), *The Wizard of Oz* (1939)
Frances Kemmish
>
> AFIAA, all the Medieval Studies departments in Britain are post-graduate
> centres, the academic staff of which are also part of one of the
> collaborating departments at that particular university.
>
Doesn't the University of Birmingham offer undergraduate programmes in
Mediaeval Studies?
Fran
Laura Blanchard
> Just a bit of a clarification here: the English department here at Penn
> has never had any problem in approving my taking of courses outside the
> department if I can demonstrate intellectual need. My understanding is
> that the other humanities departments are similarly flexible. So it may
> be possible, even at NYU :), for you to be a Music grad student and still
> be able to take a course on Saints' Lives from the French department.
> Just making sure that people are aware that discipline-specific structures
> aren't as hermetically-sealed and inflexible as has been implied in a
> number of posts in the group.
I think this is a good point, Rob, and it's the point I was trying to
make a few days ago when I posted about the "medieval studies
committees" in institutions that don't have medieval studies centers.
These are groups of faculty who can help advise students on the
resources available in other departments so that they can have their
medieval focus within the framework of a specific departmental program.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
D. Spencer Hines
As in many scholarly things, British general practice --- and perhaps
academic practice, as well --- seems to be sounder than American here.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under
their feet, and turn again and rend you." The Gospel According to St.
Matthew 7:6. King James Version [1611]
Chris Price <christop...@mail.btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:372EF8FC...@mail.btinternet.com...
erilar
christop...@mail.btinternet.com wrote:
> For me, "independent scholar" does not have the perjorative overtones of
> "independent researcher".
> certainly anyone with a reasonable degree from a good university in a
> reasonably relevent subject would regard themselves, and probably be
> regarded, as perfectly capable of carrying out independent research. If
> there were any questions (e.g. over access to archives) it would be as
> to whether they were serious i.e. were willing to put in the work
> required, rather than their capability.
True, and anyway, at advanced levels, scholars/students/researchers must
be pretty independent; I don't recall ever hearing of PhDs based on course
work only.. .
J Prescott
<arc...@iconn.net> writes
Here's a complete list from UCAS using the search words 'medieval
studies'.
The University of Birmingham
Medieval Studies BA V120 3FT
Cardiff University
Medieval Studies BA V120 3FT
The University of Durham
Medieval Studies (English and History) BA QV31 3FT
University of Exeter
English Medieval Studies BA QV31 3FT
English Medieval Studies with European Study BA QV3C 4FT
University of Wales, Lampeter
Medieval Studies and Management BA NV1D 3FT
Medieval Studies and Jewish Studies BA QV9D 3FT
Medieval Studies BA V120 3FT
Medieval Studies and Ancient History BA V121 3FT
Medieval Studies and Church History BA V122 3FT
Medieval Studies and History BA V123 3FT
Victorian Studies and Medieval Studies BA V124 3FT
Modern Historical Studies and Medieval Studies BA V134 3FT
Medieval Studies and Informatics BA VG1M 3FT
Medieval Studies and Anthropology BA VL16 3FT
Medieval Studies and Geography BA VL18 3FT
Medieval Studies and Cultural St in Geography BA VL1V 3FT
Medieval Studies and Australian Studies BA VLD6 3FT
Medieval Studies and English Literature BA VQ13 3FT
Medieval Studies and North American Studies BA VQ14 3FT
Welsh and Medieval Studies BA VQ15 3FT
Medieval Studies and Latin BA VQ16 3FT
Medieval Studies and Greek BA VQ17 3FT
Medieval Studies and Classical Studies BA VQ18 3FT
Welsh Studies and Medieval Studies BA VQ1M 3FT
Medieval Studies and French BA VR11 4FT
Medieval Studies and Islamic Studies BA VT16 3FT
Philosophical Studies and Medieval Studies BA VV1T 3FT
Medieval Studies and Archaeology BA VV61 3FT
Religious Studies and Medieval Studies BA VV81 3FT
Theology and Medieval Studies BA VV8C 3FT
Combined Honours Mod Y400 3FT
Lancaster University
Mediaeval and Renaissance Studies BA V125 3FT
The University of Manchester
Medieval Studies BA V120 3FT
Univ of Newcastle Upon Tyne
Combined Studies (BA) BA Y400 3FT
University of Reading
Latin and Medieval Studies BA QV61 3FT
Classical and Medieval Studies BA QV81 3FT
University of St Andrews
Classical Studies-Mediaeval History MA QV81 4FT
Mediaeval Studies MA V121 4FT
Mediaeval History-Middle East Studies MA VT1P 4FT
University of Wales Swansea
Medieval Studies/Anthropology BA LVP1 3FT
Medieval Studies/Classical Civilisation BA QV8C 3FT
Medieval Studies/English BA QVH1 3FT
Welsh/Medieval Studies BA QVM1 3FT
Medieval Studies/Latin BA QVP1 3FT
Medieval Studies/Greek BA QVR1 3FT
Medieval Studies/French BA RVC1 4FT
Medieval Studies/Italian BA RVH1 4FT
Spanish/Medieval Studies BA RVK1 4FT
Medieval Studies/Ancient History BA V115 3FT
Medieval Studies/History BA V120 3FT
Sociology/Medieval Studies BA VL13 3FT