Those who read this group and alt.legend.king-arthur many moons ago may remember that I suggested that a case might be made for linking Arthur with Lincolnshire, partly out of a desire to show that a historical Arthur theory can be constructed for nearly any part of Britain. In any case, I've decided to pursue this a little and the results of this can now be downloaded in pdf format from my website -- http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/historicity/arthur_lindsey.pdf
In addition, 'A Bibliographic Guide to Arthurian Literature' and 'A Gazetteer of Arthurian Onomastic and Topographic Folklore' have both been revised and updated; they have also been converted into pdf format for ease of use and reference. Here are the direct links, if anyone is interested:
hrothgar_cyn...@hotmail.com wrote: >Those who read this group and alt.legend.king-arthur many moons ago may >remember that I suggested that a case might be made for linking Arthur >with Lincolnshire, partly out of a desire to show that a historical >Arthur theory can be constructed for nearly any part of Britain. In >any case, I've decided to pursue this a little and the results of this >can now be downloaded in pdf format from my website -- >http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/historicity/arthur_lindsey.pdf >In addition, 'A Bibliographic Guide to Arthurian Literature' and 'A >Gazetteer of Arthurian Onomastic and Topographic Folklore' have both >been revised and updated; they have also been converted into pdf format >for ease of use and reference. Here are the direct links, if anyone is >interested: >http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/concepts/arthur_lit.pdf >http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/concepts/arthur_folk.pdf >Cheers, >Tom Green >Arthurian Resources -- http://www.arthuriana.co.uk
Thanks Tom. That is really appreciated by your fans and the many others who consult your site.
It is, in my opinion, the premier Arthurian site on the internet.
> > Thanks Tom. That is really appreciated by your fans and > > the many others who consult your site.
> > It is, in my opinion, the premier Arthurian site on the > > internet.
> > ---- Paul J. Gans
> You're very kind, thank you :
> btw: no decent medieval threads I see, or are they all simply getting > lost amongst the chaff?
There are some brave people trying to turn this into a medieval forum but they tend to be outnumbered by people who think that Donald Rumsfeld is a good (or bad) thing.
Thanks for the article. You have totally convinced me of the Lincoln alternative. Now, where do the Sarmatians fit in?
Nice to see that Rachel Bromwich, who taught me Old Irish and Medieval Welsh more years ago than I can count, is still publishing. I always thought that her advocacy of a North British Arthur had something to do with her Cumbrian origins ;-)
In article <1162928016.324633.114...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
<hrothgar_cyn...@hotmail.com> wrote: >btw: no decent medieval threads I see, or are they all simply getting >lost amongst the chaff?
There are very few good medieval threads. And it's hard to filter them, for example Paul Gans responds to off-topic threads quite a lot, so if you just filter him away, you lose some real medieval content.
Or is someone claiming that diet coke and mentos were around in the middle ages?
hrothgar_cyn...@hotmail.com wrote: >Paul J Gans wrote: >> Thanks Tom. That is really appreciated by your fans and >> the many others who consult your site.
>> It is, in my opinion, the premier Arthurian site on the >> internet.
>> ---- Paul J. Gans >You're very kind, thank you : >btw: no decent medieval threads I see, or are they all simply getting >lost amongst the chaff?
I strongly suspect that current events have drowned everything out. This (the US) is one fractious, strongly divided nation right now.
Greg Lindahl <lind...@pbm.com> wrote: >In article <1162928016.324633.114...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, > <hrothgar_cyn...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>btw: no decent medieval threads I see, or are they all simply getting >>lost amongst the chaff? >There are very few good medieval threads. And it's hard to filter >them, for example Paul Gans responds to off-topic threads quite a lot, >so if you just filter him away, you lose some real medieval content.
Thanks Greg. I probably respond to fewer off-topic posts than any frequent poster here. And I almost always remember to trim my headers so that my postings are NOT crossposted.
But it is good to know that you don't notice those things.
> There are some brave people trying to turn this into a medieval forum > but they tend to be outnumbered by people who think that Donald Rumsfeld > is a good (or bad) thing.
Yes, well, a medieval history group is the obvious place to discuss such issues, isn't it... ;)
> Thanks for the article. You have totally convinced me of the Lincoln > alternative. Now, where do the Sarmatians fit in?
Glad to hear it :) My initial stimulus was a review of claimed historical Arthurs, who seem to have been located in virtually every part of the British Isles [e.g. The Essex Tourist Board's 'Arthur the Essex Man' -- A. Goldsmith, 'Essex Man hijacks the legend of King Arthur' in _The Times_ 26 September, 1994 (London), p.1] and even beyond, with R.W. Miller _Will the real King Arthur please stand up?_ (Cassell, 1978) arguing for a Breton Arthur. I originally (1997?) made the suggestion as simply a way of showing that a case can be made for Arthur operating in almost any region of Britain, but on reflection I do think that -- *if* there was a single historical Arthur of the fifth century and the Historia Brittonum contains a solid core of fact in its battle-list -- then the Lincolnshire case ought to be at least considered...
Ah, yes, the Sarmatians.... well, as I say on the website, I'm of the opinion that it's all highly speculative and I'm not at all convinced. In particular, Littleton and Malcor suggest that Arthur is the Ossetian Batraz-by-another-name primarily on the basis that the legends of Batraz (and, for example, those of the Japanese Yamato-takeru) feature the 'most important of Arthurian themes' and some explanation of this is required -- despite the fact that some of what they identify as these 'Arthurian themes' go unrecorded until the fifteenth century and they are not present in the earliest Arthurian material.
To give an example of this logic, Littleton recently wrote -- after discussing the Batraz tale -- that <<[o]ne need not be a specialist in Arthurian literature to recognize the parallels between the foregoing tale and the famous episode in Sir Thomas Malory's Morte D'Arthur wherein the dying king asks Sir Bedivere to throw Excalibur into the sea>> [C. Scott Littleton, 'Yamato-takeru: An "Arthurian" Hero in Japanese Tradition' in _Asian Folklore Studies_, Vol. 54, No. 2. (1995), pp. 259-274 at p.265]. I just don't find this kind of reasoning, with its 1000 years of silent transmission, convincingas the main basis of a 'radical reassessment' of the Arthurian legends. Given the complete absence of early insular evidence of such 'essential elements' as central to the Arthurian legend, I'm happier with Wadge and Kennedy's point that there are alternative methods of transmission for any shared themes, such as a common Indo-European heritage or medieval contact, or even influence on the Batraz tales *by* those of Arthur, given the late date of many of the former [C.T. Wood, 'Review of C.S. Littleton and L.A. Malcor's From Scythia to Camelot and G. Phillips and M. Keatman's King Arthur: The True Story' in _Arthuriana_ 5.3 (Fall, 1995), pp.124-27; R. Wadge, 'King Arthur: A British or Sarmatian Tradition?' in _Folklore_ 98: ii, (1987) pp. 204-215]. Indeed, Anderson has recently published a very effective survey of the Sarmatian thesis and shows that some, at least, of the same motifs they observe and argue from are found in classical writings too, which they fail to discuss [G. Anderson, _King Arthur in Antiquity_ (London, 2004)].
Some further reviews of _From Scythia to Camelot_, in which the Sarmatian theory is set out, if anyone is seriously interested in this question:
<<This is a provocative book, owing to its daring thesis as well as the energy of its elaboration, but it is also unsettling and largely speculative, with a great deal being built on very little which is actually sure... I regret to say that some explanations strike me as largely fanciful... But convoluted speculation is not the only problem, and we sometimes encounter other serious difficulties, involving dubious interpretations or even embarrassing mis-translations... [discussion of their etymology of Lancelot]... I wish I could say that this is an unfortunate lapse in an otherwise sound work of scholarship. It may be the most egregious, but it is not unique...>> Norris J. Lacy, 'Review of From Scythia to Camelot: A Radical Reassessment of the Legends of King Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table, and the Holy Grail, by C. Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor' in _Speculum_ Vol. 70, No. 4. (Oct., 1995), pp.930-1
<<There is a fascinating and possibly important book to be written about Ossetic traditions and the Arthurian legends; unfortunately, this is not that book... The fact that there are striking parallels between the legendary material by and about the Alans and Sarmatians on the one hand and Arthur and his knights on the other... says nothing, by itself, about how those parallels came into existence. The authors acknowledge that coincidence, direct borrowing, indirect borrowing, and common Indo-European inheritance, are all avenues to be explored, but their enterprise founders here owing to special pleading, lack of evidence in crucial places, and often failure to follow the rules of a variety of disciplines: Interdisciplinarity too easily becomes adisciplinarity.>> D.F. Melia, 'Review of From Scythia to Camelot: A Radical Reassessment of the Legends of King Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table, and the Holy Grail, by C. Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor' in _Western Folklore_ Vol. 55, No. 2. (Spring, 1996), pp. 166-7
> Nice to see that Rachel Bromwich, who taught me Old Irish and Medieval > Welsh more years ago than I can count, is still publishing.
Yes, and the new edition of Trioedd Ynys Prydein is an excellent update, IMHO -- though the final publication had to be completed by her friends, as she was unable to do it.
>I always > thought that her advocacy of a North British Arthur had something to do > with her Cumbrian origins ;-)
Surely not! ;) Hmm, can you guess where I was brought up....
> Glad to hear it :) My initial stimulus was a review of claimed > historical Arthurs, who seem to have been located in virtually every > part of the British Isles
Everywhere I've lived in the UK, which is a reasonable proportion of the section between London and York running coast-to-coast, has had some sort of Arthurian connection.
I currently live on the Yorkshire Coast, a place where the Romans were replaced by Saxon mercenaries even before the return of the legions to the European mainland.
Even so we have Arthurian legends.
Scarborough is just about the only place suitable for Launcelot's castle of Joyous Guard.
Of course Pellinore's Questing Beast is the Seamer Worm, whose skeleton is now Filey Brigg...
The reality is that we have two facts.
A line in a book that says, as best my memory remembers:
"Artor and Mortred killed in a battle"
And Ambrosius won a battle at Mount Baddon, wherever the hell that was...
-- William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
> > Glad to hear it :) My initial stimulus was a review of claimed > > historical Arthurs, who seem to have been located in virtually every > > part of the British Isles
> Everywhere I've lived in the UK, which is a reasonable proportion of the > section between London and York running coast-to-coast, has had some sort of > Arthurian connection.
> I currently live on the Yorkshire Coast, a place where the Romans were > replaced by Saxon mercenaries even before the return of the legions to the > European mainland.
> Even so we have Arthurian legends.
> Scarborough is just about the only place suitable for Launcelot's castle of > Joyous Guard.
> Of course Pellinore's Questing Beast is the Seamer Worm, whose skeleton is > now Filey Brigg...
> The reality is that we have two facts.
> A line in a book that says, as best my memory remembers:
> "Artor and Mortred killed in a battle"
> And Ambrosius won a battle at Mount Baddon, wherever the hell that was...
You forgot that Arthur carved his tag on some bridge in the West Country... then (for some reason) replaced it cement down so it couldn't be seen for 1500 years....
In article <eirp60$r5...@reader2.panix.com>, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>Thanks Greg. I probably respond to fewer off-topic posts >than any frequent poster here. And I almost always remember >to trim my headers so that my postings are NOT crossposted.
>But it is good to know that you don't notice those things.
You responded to so many off-topic posts that I kill-filed you long ago. I bet everyone who responds to off-topic posts here is sure that they're being reasonable and responsible about it. But the problem is so bad that zero tolerance is the only way to live.
I emailed you about this at the time. Your choice was to continue.
Greg Lindahl <lind...@pbm.com> wrote: >In article <eirp60$r5...@reader2.panix.com>, >Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote: >>Thanks Greg. I probably respond to fewer off-topic posts >>than any frequent poster here. And I almost always remember >>to trim my headers so that my postings are NOT crossposted.
>>But it is good to know that you don't notice those things. >You responded to so many off-topic posts that I kill-filed you long >ago. I bet everyone who responds to off-topic posts here is sure that >they're being reasonable and responsible about it. But the problem is >so bad that zero tolerance is the only way to live. >I emailed you about this at the time. Your choice was to continue.
I guess you didn't even notice that I was gone for almost two months.
William Black wrote: > Even so we have Arthurian legends.
> Scarborough is just about the only place suitable for Launcelot's castle of > Joyous Guard.
> Of course Pellinore's Questing Beast is the Seamer Worm, whose skeleton is > now Filey Brigg...
Well, Bromwich does suggest the York and the East Riding region as her preferred centre of Arthur's activity ;-) Indeed, from a Yorkshire perspective don't forget that Arthur is supposed to be waiting in a cavern beneath Richmond Castle (or Freeburgh Hill, south of Castleton, N. Yorks). A local antiquary in the mid-nineteenth century recorded that a man was taken into this chamber and presented with a horn and a sword, which could be used to rouse Arthur and his knights from their long slumber:
<<But when he drew the sword half out of its sheaf, a stir among them terrified him to such a degree, that he let the blade fall back into its place, and an indignant voice instantly cried:-
Potter, Potter Thompson! If thou had either drawn The sword or blown that horn, Thou'd be the luckiest man That ever was born.>>
Sadly, due to his failure, Arthur slumbers on...
> The reality is that we have two facts.
> A line in a book that says, as best my memory remembers:
> "Artor and Mortred killed in a battle"
And not even that -- it is now generally dismissed as a tenth-century interpolation into the Annales Cambriae, probably derivative of the ninth-century Historia Brittonum...
>> Scarborough is just about the only place suitable for Launcelot's castle >> of >> Joyous Guard.
>> Of course Pellinore's Questing Beast is the Seamer Worm, whose skeleton >> is >> now Filey Brigg...
> Well, Bromwich does suggest the York and the East Riding region as her > preferred centre of Arthur's activity ;-)
They'll be lucky.
The excavations at Sancton prove without doubt that the East Riding was an area of Saxon dominance before the Romans left.
They keep finding people burried in Roman officer's uniforms with Saxon religious symbols attached...
-- William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
> > Well, Bromwich does suggest the York and the East Riding region as her > > preferred centre of Arthur's activity ;-)
> They'll be lucky.
> The excavations at Sancton prove without doubt that the East Riding was an > area of Saxon dominance before the Romans left.
> They keep finding people burried in Roman officer's uniforms with Saxon > religious symbols attached...
Really? I don't have time to check at the minute but, IIRC, the current dating of Sancton is mid-fifth to mid-seventh century (see J. Timby, 'Sancton I Anglo-Saxon Cemetery' in _The Archaeological Journal_ 150, 1993, pp.243-365)... Myre's very early dating of cremations -- which led to claims of fourth-century settlement etc -- is now no longer usually accepted. But maybe there has been something new I've missed?
>>> Scarborough is just about the only place suitable for Launcelot's castle >>> of >>> Joyous Guard.
>>> Of course Pellinore's Questing Beast is the Seamer Worm, whose skeleton >>> is >>> now Filey Brigg...
>> Well, Bromwich does suggest the York and the East Riding region as her >> preferred centre of Arthur's activity ;-)
>They'll be lucky.
>The excavations at Sancton prove without doubt that the East Riding was an >area of Saxon dominance before the Romans left.
>They keep finding people burried in Roman officer's uniforms with Saxon >religious symbols attached...
The Devil put them there to confuse us...
-- Bryn
To Escape an elephant stampede: Blend seamlessly into the herd by putting your nose on your shoulder and waving your arm in front of you. The stampeding elephants will then run around you.
>> > Well, Bromwich does suggest the York and the East Riding region as her >> > preferred centre of Arthur's activity ;-)
>> They'll be lucky.
>> The excavations at Sancton prove without doubt that the East Riding was >> an >> area of Saxon dominance before the Romans left.
>> They keep finding people burried in Roman officer's uniforms with Saxon >> religious symbols attached...
> Really? I don't have time to check at the minute but, IIRC, the > current dating of Sancton is mid-fifth to mid-seventh century (see J. > Timby, 'Sancton I Anglo-Saxon Cemetery' in _The Archaeological Journal_ > 150, 1993, pp.243-365)... Myre's very early dating of cremations -- > which led to claims of fourth-century settlement etc -- is now no > longer usually accepted. But maybe there has been something new I've > missed?
Dunno.
It's what I was told at the East Riding Museum.
-- William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
