Lepanto
richard seed
goodsite where i can read an account of the battel iirc it was the
last battle where galletys were extenively used by both sides .
Ray O'Hara
"richard seed" <sedu...@clara.net> wrote in message
news:eamm2416u8651u7mm...@4ax.com...
> Hving read the Poem aoutthe battle can onyone give me a link to a
> goodsite where i can read an account of the battel iirc it was the
> last battle where galletys were extenively used by both sides .
you could try google, type in battle of lepanto
but you have unwittingly shown a bad side effect of the net.
the unwillingness to go to the library and get a book.
any book titled "great naval battles" will include a chapter on lepanto. any
decent library will have such a book.
am...@hotmail.com
AFAIK, this is a popular but not necessarily correct concept,
depending on what is meant by 'extensively'. The galleys had been used
on both sides during the Russian-Swedish wars in the late XVIII. At
the 2nd Battle of Svensksund there were 16 galleys on the Swedish side
and 23 on the Russian side.
Soren Larsen
> On May 14, 5:29 pm, richard seed <sedur...@clara.net> wrote:
>> Hving read the Poem aoutthe battle can onyone give me a link to a
>> goodsite where i can read an account of the battel iirc it was the
>> last battle where galletys were extenively used by both sides .
>
> AFAIK, this is a popular but not necessarily correct concept,
> depending on what is meant by 'extensively'.
It was however the last great battle of opponents whos main battlefleets
consisted of galleys.
In less than a century Spain, Venice and the Ottomans were employing
private dutch and english atlantic sailing warships.
It was a loosing bet when the Med navies decided that the galley was the
best suited vessel for the new heavy guns.
The dutch and english privately owned fighting ships for hire, were also a
brief lasting development.
They were easily defeated by a numerically inferior danish squadron with
purposely
build sailing warships and trained crews at at Lister dyb/depth, when they
tried to
enter the Baltic.
Later in the Anglo-Dutch wars the regular navy squadrons again proved much
better
suited for warfare than the privately owned forces with their merchantmen
made warships.
>The galleys had been used
> on both sides during the Russian-Swedish wars in the late XVIII. At
> the 2nd Battle of Svensksund there were 16 galleys on the Swedish side
> and 23 on the Russian side.
Hush!
The english speakers like to think that they fought in all the really big
early modern
naval battles.
--
History is not what it used to be.
Paul J Gans
>>The galleys had been used
>> on both sides during the Russian-Swedish wars in the late XVIII. At
>> the 2nd Battle of Svensksund there were 16 galleys on the Swedish side
>> and 23 on the Russian side.
>Hush!
>The english speakers like to think that they fought in all the really big
>early modern
>naval battles.
You mean we weren't? Wow!
Galleys have one major advantage over sail-powered ships. They
can move with much less regard for the wind direction. This
isn't too much of an advantage when both sides have galleys.
I believe that the North African pirates in the 18th and early
19th centuries used galleys to great advantage on becalmed
merchant ships.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
D. Spencer Hines
Jack Linthicum
In 1804 the King of the Two Sicilies had two half-galleys built, and
one of them, the La Beatrice, is credited in Conway's History of the
Ship The Age of the Galley with being the last galley to take part in
naval battle at Caprera in 1815. Note: there were galeasses in the
Armada in 1588.
William Black
> Galleys have one major advantage over sail-powered ships. They
> can move with much less regard for the wind direction. This
> isn't too much of an advantage when both sides have galleys.
Time for some 'back to basics' stuff.
Square rigged ships have two big advantages that galleys can do little
about.
The first is that bloody great big broadside of guns.
The second is that they can absorb losses of men without losing much
manoeuvrability.
This means that they can keep fighting after being hit had, and can do huge
amounts of damage by throwing a huge weight of shot.
Galleys can do neither.
Which means that as soon as the square-rigged broadside mounting ships turn
up they're reduced to either nipping out from a sheltered port and attacking
becalmed ships, or being auxiliaries to broadside firing ships.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Soren Larsen
> Soren Larsen <Wag...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:
>
>>> The galleys had been used
>>> on both sides during the Russian-Swedish wars in the late XVIII. At
>>> the 2nd Battle of Svensksund there were 16 galleys on the Swedish
>>> side and 23 on the Russian side.
>
>> Hush!
>
>> The english speakers like to think that they fought in all the
>> really big early modern
>> naval battles.
>
> You mean we weren't? Wow!
Considering the result there is a possibility that a certain housing officer
was involved as naval advisor to the Turks, but that is all.
>
> Galleys have one major advantage over sail-powered ships. They
> can move with much less regard for the wind direction.
Beside the tactical advantages mentioned by WB the sailing warships
were much better tools for power projection over long distances.
The Med powers were fighting major battles with amphibeous landings
and long sieges over fortified galley bases, simply because they needed
those bases to project power from one end of the Med to the other.
Long before Lepanto the Portuguese had shown how relatively small
gun carrying sailing warships could project power from Europe into the
Indian ocean. There they shot up Ottoman and Mameluk galley squadrons
and generally became pain in the butt for all the local seafarers.
But nobody asked the Portuguese, so the Med navies had to learn the hard
way.
In the Baltic the dissolution of the Kalmar Union in the early 16th c and
the transfer of cannon making technology from the Dutch to copper,
iron and fuel rich Sweden, and the subsequent rise of a well armed
Swedish navy of purpose build warships became a serious challenge
to Denmark and the Hanse, the two traditional seapowers in the Baltic.
Initially Denmark and the Hanse only managed to avoid total defeat due to
better seamanship and more experience in naval warfare.
Denmark adapted by building a regular navy of purpose build warship armed
with cheap but inferior English iron cannon. The Hanse didn't adapt at all,
and was finished as a notable seapower within decades.
So in a very short time the Baltic came under total control of two state
navies, which meant that it became a very safe sea to travel -
if you payed the Sound dues and the city costums imposed by
those states.
The dutch were the first to take advantages. They developed unarmed, small
crew, high payload vessels specificly for the Baltic trade.
>This
> isn't too much of an advantage when both sides have galleys.
In the Baltic the navies had littoral squadrons of galleys for use
inside the skerries, in shallow water and for landings.
>
> I believe that the North African pirates in the 18th and early
> 19th centuries used galleys to great advantage on becalmed
> merchant ships.
In the Baltic oarpowered gunboats was a pain in the behind to merchant
shipping and becalmed warships during the Napoleonic wars, but nobody
seriously considered to compose a main battlefleet of galleys.
am...@hotmail.com
> Paul J Gans wrote:
>
> >>> The galleys had been used
> >>> on both sides during the Russian-Swedish wars in the late XVIII. At
> >>> the 2nd Battle of Svensksund there were 16 galleys on the Swedish
> >>> side and 23 on the Russian side.
>
> >> Hush!
>
> >> The english speakers like to think that they fought in all the
> >> really big early modern
> >> naval battles.
>
> > You mean we weren't? Wow!
>
> Considering the result there is a possibility that a certain housing officer
> was involved as naval advisor to the Turks, but that is all.
>
>
>
> > Galleys have one major advantage over sail-powered ships. They
> > can move with much less regard for the wind direction.
>
> Beside the tactical advantages mentioned by WB the sailing warships
> were much better tools for power projection over long distances.
>
While this is all true in general, the galleys proved to be quite
useful during the Great Northern War in the specific conditions of
Baltic theater because they could operate in the shallow waters and
serve as the landing vessels or even on some ocassions successfully
attack the sail-powered ships in the close to shore areas.
am...@hotmail.com
> a...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >The galleys had been used
> > on both sides during the Russian-Swedish wars in the late XVIII. At
> > the 2nd Battle of Svensksund there were 16 galleys on the Swedish side
> > and 23 on the Russian side.
>
> Hush!
>
> The english speakers like to think that they fought in all the really big
> early modern
> naval battles.
With a definition of 'really big' being a grey area, they can
comfortably continue to think whatever they prefer. :-)
Soren Larsen
Err!?
Further down I wrote:
"In the Baltic the navies had littoral squadrons of galleys for use
inside the skerries, in shallow water and for landings."
--
The Highlander
>
> > Soren Larsen <Wagn...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:
>
> >>>The galleys had been used
> >>> on both sides during the Russian-Swedish wars in the late XVIII. At
> >>> the 2nd Battle of Svensksund there were 16 galleys on the Swedish side
> >>> and 23 on the Russian side.
>
> >>Hush!
>
> >>The english speakers like to think that they fought in all the really big
> >>early modern naval battles.
>
> > You mean we weren't? Wow!
>
> > Galleys have one major advantage over sail-powered ships. They
> > can move with much less regard for the wind direction. This
> > isn't too much of an advantage when both sides have galleys.
>
> > I believe that the North African pirates in the 18th and early
> > 19th centuries used galleys to great advantage on becalmed
> > merchant ships.
>
> > --
> > --- Paul J. Gans
> > I believe that the North African pirates in the 18th and early
> > 19th centuries used galleys to great advantage on becalmed
> > merchant ships.
I wonder if you are familiar with the story of Helen Gloag.
Helen Gloag was born close to the village of Muthill, Scotland in
1750. The family soon moved to the Mill of Stepps on the Mechany water
where her father had a blacksmith’s business. Here Helen grew up to be
a striking beauty with golden-red hair and green eyes. Because of the
friction at home, Helen and Helen's association with a young farmer,
John Byrne, she, with several other girl friends decided to emigrate
to South Carolina. They set sail from Greenock in May 1769 but off the
coast of Spain they were boarded by a party of the notorious Salle
pirates of Morocco. Salle had a fearsome reputation as a centre for
the slave trade. It was also a city where Christians were regarded as
being of very little account and were treated with the greatest
cruelty. Many embraced Islam to escape slavery and at least some
joined the xebecs, the swift three masted boats used by the pirates.
Helen and her companions were taken to local slave market, where her
beauty attracted great attention and one of the more astute merchants
of the town purchased her and then gifted her to Sultan Sidi Mohammid
ibn Abdullah, the ruler of Morocco. He soon became infatuated by
Helen’s beauty and perhaps her good Scottish common sense and before
long she had graduated from the position of concubine to that of
fourth wife with the rank of Empress. Possibly because of her
influence, British captives began to be released and allowed to go
home.
The Salle pirates were officially abolished (though it was early in
this century before they were finally stamped out) and trading
treaties were made with Britain and other countries. Among those who
visited Morocco was her brother Robert and through him she retained
her links with Scotland sending many gifts home to her family and to
her boyhood friend John Byrne.
In 1790, the Sultan died and the throne was seized by Mulai Yazeed, a
half mad son by a German concubine. Helen sent her two sons by the
Sultan to the town of Teuten in an attempt to secure their safety but
it seems probable that they were killed by Yazeed’s troops. Helen’s
fate is unknown but it is thought that she survived Yazeed’s short but
bloody reign. Her brother retired to Mill of Stepps and died there in
1830 aged 77.
Thinking of the theme of odd craft landing in Scotland, at least five
Inuit (Eskimo) men have landed by kayak in Scotland, apparently swept
there by the Greenland current/North Atlantic drift - some of whom
were ultimately returned home by ship. I believe two of the kayaks
may be seen in a museum in Aberdeen.
In the Hebrides, and Shetland, the characteristic Viking configuration
of the galley, called "Birlinn" in Gaelic can still be seen and was
in use for several hundred years. The Hebrides were a Viking colony
for several hundred years and to this day are still called Innse Gall
(Isles of foreigners) in Gaelic.
Nebulous
"D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:2b4_j.1001$
1256, 13 January, Holyrood, Colloquium
Colloquium Record
13 January 1256
[1256/1]*[print] [email] [cite] [following]
Judicial procedure: quitclaim of a suit
In A.D. 1255, when David de Lochore, then sheriff of Perth, had begged four
merks from the abbot and convent of Dunfermline for the needs of the lord
king for the default of a suit at the court of the sheriffdom of Perth
concerning the lands of Fordie,? Couttie,? Bendochy, Little Keithock,
Inchturfin and Dummernech,? at length, at the instance of the same abbot and
convent the lord king caused an inquisition to be made in the presence of
Alexander Comyn, earl of Buchan, then justiciar of Scotia, by many barons,
whether the said suit ought to happen concerning these lands or not. Having
made diligent and faithful inquest concerning this said matter thereafter,
Sir Gilbert de Hay, bringing about the said inquest, was present in the full
colloquium of the lord king held at Holyrood on the twentieth day of the
nativity of the Lord in the same year, [and] pronounced that the verdict of
the barons was that they [would] see any men from the foresaid lands [who
came] to the said court, but none came there as suitors. By means of which
[verdict] the lord king, in the foresaid full colloquium by the common
counsel of his magnates present there, altogether quitclaimed this abbot and
convent and their men in so far as making the foresaid suit in perpetuity.
Nebulous
"The Highlander" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:64f3b17e-8eb4-4195-b8d3-
258, Stirling/Edinburgh, Parliament/Colloquium
Additional Record
1258
[A1258/1]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Non-parliamentary records: correspondence of Henry III
Two letters of Henry III, dated 25 March 1258 and 13 May 1258 refer to a
Scottish parliament or colloquium held at Stirling and/or Edinburgh. The
first letter places the meeting at Stirling 'three weeks from Easter' (c. 14
April). The second places the 'colloquium' at Edinburgh, which appears to
have already taken place, and Henry III excuses the absence of his envoys
because of his own colloquium at Oxford 'a month' after Easter. In both
letters Henry III desires the Scottish assembly to be prorogued or moved to
a more convenient date and place south of the Forth, in the second case
until 8 September next (CDS, i, nos 2114, 2126).
Paul J Gans
>"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:g1aigk$mmd$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>> Galleys have one major advantage over sail-powered ships. They
>> can move with much less regard for the wind direction. This
>> isn't too much of an advantage when both sides have galleys.
>Time for some 'back to basics' stuff.
>Square rigged ships have two big advantages that galleys can do little
>about.
>The first is that bloody great big broadside of guns.
>The second is that they can absorb losses of men without losing much
>manoeuvrability.
>This means that they can keep fighting after being hit had, and can do huge
>amounts of damage by throwing a huge weight of shot.
>Galleys can do neither.
>Which means that as soon as the square-rigged broadside mounting ships turn
>up they're reduced to either nipping out from a sheltered port and attacking
>becalmed ships, or being auxiliaries to broadside firing ships.
Exactly, which is what the pirates in North Africa did --
taking pains to approach from the rear.
One of the "standard" arrangements seems to have been to
mount a canon in the center of the gally shooting forward
over the bow. The stern was one of the weaker points
of a square-rigged ship.
Ray O'Hara
ships have stern chasers too.
Xebecs used by pirates were fine ships. they could easily take a merchant
ship but they were in trouble against a warship.
same with older galleys.
William Black
Well yes.
But you're not actually doing anything above the nuisance level.
Piracy is crime for gain. Nation states do not, by their very nature,
commit crimes as a means of securing income.
A pirate galley is a lethal attacker when confronted by a becalmed square
rigger.
Two becalmed square riggers can anchor in a way to give themselves mutual
support with their main batteries.
It's like modern war.
Third world militias with their technicals (Pick-up trucks mounting medium
automatic weapons) are a match for any infantry, but put them up against
anything purpose built for the task and they're toast.
Jack Linthicum
> William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >"Paul J Gans" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message
I think there were weight and supply problems that initially dictated
the single gun that could be afforded be mounted on the centerline,
leaving fore and aft as the only two azimuths for use at sea.
Jane Margaret Laight
>
> - Show quoted text -
well, dealing with Scots and North Africa, how about the story of
Peter Lisle of Perth, who left a wife and five kids in London to sail
the Mediterrean as Murad Reis, Grand Admiral of the navy of the
kingdom of Tripoli and the son-in-law of its ruler, the Bashaw Yusuf
Karamanli--he was serving as a deckhand on the schooner "Betsy", when
in 1796, it was captured by the Barbary pirates and its crew
imprisioned. Peter converted to Islam ("turned Turk", as it was
called) and since Muslims were supposed to not enslave others of their
faith, Peter went free. He ingraitiated himself with his new-found
allies to the extent that they eventually gave him command of the
"Betsy"--renamed the "Meshuda", mounted with twenty-eight guns and
with a crew of over three hundred. When the young United States Navy
started bumping heads with the Barbary Pirates, Murad Reis--who did
not like Americans--played a major role in stirring up trouble and
precipitating war. When the U.S.S. "Philadelphia" ran aground, it was
Murad Reis and a raiding party who boarded it and took the crew of
three hundred captive. He would eventually be killed at sea, courtesy
of a well-aimed cannon ball.
D. Spencer Hines
Naval Warfare than does our Pogue Gans.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g1e1hp$nl6$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
The Highlander
Interesting history - I hadn't run across it before - thank you!
Bryn
>
> - Show quoted text -
Somewhat in tune with this thread. This page may interest some..
http://ncmonthly.com/daytrips.html
Bryn
The Highlander
It did. I've been to some of the places mentioned.
Nebulous
"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:g24c3c$sk6$4...@mouse.otenet.gr...
1294, 26 February, Lanark, Parliament
Additional Record
26 February 1294
[A1294/2/1]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Non-parliamentary record: Account of issues of lands and tenements belonging
to the earl of Fife
[An account by Walter de Cambo recording the issues of the lands and
tenements of the earl of Fife between 20 November 1293 and 16 February 1294
includes the following comment:]? 'The same Walter does not respond
concerning the issues of the aforesaid lands and tenements [from 20]
November until the aforesaid 16 February next following [16 February 1294],
on which day the keepership of the aforesaid lands and tenements was freed
to the same Walter, as the lord king's [Edward I's] keeper, by John now king
of Scotland at his parliament at Lanark; from which time the same king of
Scotland received all the issues provided thereby; likewise [he does not
respond] concerning the issues of the same lands and tenements from the day
when the lord king [Edward I] returned the kingdom of Scotland to the same
John, now king of Scotland, as nearest heir of the aforesaid Margaret, until
the aforesaid 20 November.'
[Later in the same account:] 'And in expenses of the same Walter, sent to
the king of Scotland in Galloway with the lord king's letters for receiving
sasine of the earldom of Fife, remaining in the same place for twelve days
and afterwards attending the king's parliament at Lanark for the same
reason, remaining [there] for fifteen days, with the expenses of the same
petitioner [as he sought out] various sheriffs with the brieves of the king
of Scotland for taking sasine of the same lands, £4 3s. 5d., as is contained
in the roll of particulars.'
Nebulous
"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
Letter: king's letter to the estates
The king's majesty's letter to the estates
Right trusty and right well-beloved cousins, right reverend fathers in God,
right trusty and well-beloved and trusty and well-beloved, we greet you all
most heartily well. Whereas we intend by God, his grace, this next year to
come into that our native kingdom to take upon us the crown, and because of
the excessive charges whereat we have continually been since the decease of
our late dear father of famous and everlasting memory and must still
continue until the estate of the affairs of Christendom shall permit an
abatement thereof, we have thought your help and assistance requisite, as
well for payment of such debts as by our said dear father were owing in that
our kingdom as for defraying the charges of our coronation and abode in the
same. And therefore we have procured this your meeting, earnestly requiring
and undoubtedly expecting that you will condescend to such a taxation,
whereby not only all things may be done to the honour of that our ancient
kingdom, but likewise such designs as we have in hand both at home and
abroad for the well of our kingdoms and people may be advanced, and this
most earnestly recommending to your most serious consideration and sudden
dispatch. We wish to you all and every one of you all happiness. Given at
our court at Titchfield, 17 September 1625.
Nebulous
"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message