Hey Ho......

[Bryn]

http://news.nationalgeographic.co.uk/news/2010/11/101123-native-american-indian-vikings-iceland-genetic-dna-science-europe/

[a425couple]

"Bryn" <brianlo...@gmail.com> wrote in message...
> http://news.nationalgeographic.co.uk/news/2010/11/101123-native-american-indian-vikings-iceland-genetic-dna-science-europe/

Hmmm....
"It makes no sense to me," said archaeologist and historian Hans Gull�v
of the Greenland Research Centre in Copenhagen.
OK.

The cite seems to offer more 'teasers' than substance, IMHO.
"Icelanders even established a village in Newfoundland, though it
lasted only a decade or so."
I had thought they figured it only lasted 2 or 3 years. ??

[Eric Stevens]

I think it is fairly safe to assume that the Norse had a greater
presence in North America than is evidenced by L'Anse aux Meadows.
There are uninvestigated mounds around Sop's Arm and Karl Budden has
reported what appears to be a very ancient Norse style pit-trap in the
vicinity. He was distressed that it was not being investigated but
instead used as a storage bunker by a local road gang.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[a425couple]

"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message...

> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>"Bryn" <brianlo...@gmail.com> wrote in message...
>>> http://news.nationalgeographic.co.uk/news/2010/11/101123-native-american-indian-vikings-iceland-genetic-dna-science-europe/
>>
>>Hmmm....

>>"It makes no sense to me," said archaeologist and historian Hans Gulløv

>>of the Greenland Research Centre in Copenhagen.
>>OK.
>>
>>The cite seems to offer more 'teasers' than substance, IMHO.
>>"Icelanders even established a village in Newfoundland, though it
>>lasted only a decade or so."
>>I had thought they figured it only lasted 2 or 3 years. ??
>
> I think it is fairly safe to assume that the Norse had a greater
> presence in North America than is evidenced by L'Anse aux Meadows.
> There are uninvestigated mounds around Sop's Arm and Karl Budden has
> reported what appears to be a very ancient Norse style pit-trap in the
> vicinity. He was distressed that it was not being investigated but
> instead used as a storage bunker by a local road gang.

> Regards,

Thanks for your (as always) kind reply.
I think I will share his "distress" at these being "uninvestigated".
I'd tend to think that this type of investigation warrants
the available funds more than some that are being done.

(But, I do understand the argument that with hugely
improving tools, it might be best to leave a 1,000 year
old site alone, then, in 100 years investigate the 1,100
year old site more more correctly & properly.
((Yes, but I'm alive NOW!, and want to know!!)) )

[a425couple]

"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message ...

> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>"Bryn" <brianlo...@gmail.com> wrote in message...
>>> http://news.nationalgeographic.co.uk/news/2010/11/101123-native-american-indian-vikings-iceland-genetic-dna-science-europe/

>> ---------------

> I think it is fairly safe to assume that the Norse had a greater
> presence in North America than is evidenced by L'Anse aux Meadows.
> There are uninvestigated mounds around Sop's Arm and Karl Budden has
> reported what appears to be a very ancient Norse style pit-trap in the
> vicinity. He was distressed that it was not being investigated but
> instead used as a storage bunker by a local road gang.

Meanwhile Eric, there is a possibility you might
have some interest in a recent thread over on the newsgroup
soc.histroy.what-if

[Eric Stevens]

I took a quick look. Thanks - but No thanks. :-)
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[Michael Kuettner]

Nope. It isn't fairly safe to assume.
The sagas don't really help re. "greater presence".
The Norse didn't have a need for new countries with dangerous
"skraelings". There was no over-population in Scandinavia.
So what happened ? Some people trying to establish a camp
for people who hunt the walrusses for walrus ivory.
When that market disappeared, L'Anse aux Meadows slowly died.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[Eric Stevens]

The sagas are self-serving family documents written several centuries
after the events they describe. The fact that they describe something
doesn't necessarily mean that they are true. Nor does their failure to
mention something mean that it didn't happen.

There are artifacts in North America which do appear to be Norse in
origin. The well known supposed 'mooring holes' are consistent with
being a thousand year old Norse technique used for marking land
boundaries. I understand this technique is still in use in Iceland
today. The holes are triangular in section as a result of them having
been drilled with a flat chisel. (I know this sounds counter-intuitive
but its easy to demonstrate).

Some of the holes are associated with carved inscriptions such as the
Tyngsboro Map Stone. There is a deeply incised carving of a drinking
horn and another of a knife, both associated with tri-holes in South
Dakota.

Then there are the numerous findings of Norse artifacts at and around
Sops Arm by Arlington Mallory.

K�re Prytz argues that Boston was the original site of Vinland and
that Norse works confirming this were found and destroyed in the
expansion of the city.

More tenuous, the Sioux tribe have long established legends and
traditions about 'black robes' which appear to refer to members of the
clergy. Some of these can be interpreted as telling of their having
been visited by a pre-Columbian Bishop.

When you take all of this and similar other material into account it
_is_ fairly safe to assume that the Norse had a far greater presence

in North America than is evidenced by L'Anse aux Meadows.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[Michael Kuettner]

Exactly. But some grains of actual events are there in those sagas.

> Nor does their failure to
> mention something mean that it didn't happen.
>

Those sagas don't mention little green men from outer space so the
aliens were here ?
Sloppy thinking ...

> There are artifacts in North America which do appear to be Norse in
> origin. The well known supposed 'mooring holes' are consistent with
> being a thousand year old Norse technique used for marking land
> boundaries. I understand this technique is still in use in Iceland
> today. The holes are triangular in section as a result of them having
> been drilled with a flat chisel. (I know this sounds counter-intuitive
> but its easy to demonstrate).
>

We've been over those holes before. Forget it.

> Some of the holes are associated with carved inscriptions such as the
> Tyngsboro Map Stone. There is a deeply incised carving of a drinking
> horn and another of a knife, both associated with tri-holes in South
> Dakota.
>

A carving of a drinking horn or a knife is an inscription ?
Were there also carvings of mooring holes ?
Btw, "inscription" means some letters ("scribere" means writing), not
some carvings.

> Then there are the numerous findings of Norse artifacts at and around
> Sops Arm by Arlington Mallory.
>

Yep. Trade would be an explanation. Occam's razor and all that ...

> K�re Prytz argues that Boston was the original site of Vinland and
> that Norse works confirming this were found and destroyed in the
> expansion of the city.
>

Nice argument. Austria was founded by 300000 year old aliens, but the
artifacts proving that were destroyed.

> More tenuous, the Sioux tribe have long established legends and
> traditions about 'black robes' which appear to refer to members of the
> clergy. Some of these can be interpreted as telling of their having
> been visited by a pre-Columbian Bishop.
>

I'll give you a little hint : The ornate of a bishop isn't black.
But don't let facts get in the way of a nice theory.
There should be some coverage now about the election of a new pope.
Watch it. Those clothes remained the same for 2000 years ...

> When you take all of this and similar other material into account it
> _is_ fairly safe to assume that the Norse had a far greater presence
> in North America than is evidenced by L'Anse aux Meadows.
>

Yeah, sure.
All that evidence, which disappears like fairy gold in the harsh light
of the morning.
Show me some solid evidence, like traces of buildings somewhere on the
continent. Heck, I'll even settle for some buffalo hides in a grave in
Scandinavia. Or foodstuffs from the new world.
Or even some loan words in Indian languages.
But there's nothing there ...

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[robert...@gmail.com]

And ddon't forget The kensington Runestone!

[Renia]

On 23/02/2013 03:07, robert...@gmail.com wrote:
> And ddon't forget The kensington Runestone!

That's someone else who hasn't been around for a while.

[Eric Stevens]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 02:01:05 +0100, Michael Kuettner

Of course.

>
>> Nor does their failure to
>> mention something mean that it didn't happen.
>>
>Those sagas don't mention little green men from outer space so the
>aliens were here ?
>Sloppy thinking ...

So is the argument you have just made.

>
>> There are artifacts in North America which do appear to be Norse in
>> origin. The well known supposed 'mooring holes' are consistent with
>> being a thousand year old Norse technique used for marking land
>> boundaries. I understand this technique is still in use in Iceland
>> today. The holes are triangular in section as a result of them having
>> been drilled with a flat chisel. (I know this sounds counter-intuitive
>> but its easy to demonstrate).
>>
>We've been over those holes before. Forget it.

They have been measured, mapped, photographed and, in some cases, have
had their contents analyzed. I'm not sure about dating. It's nonsense
to claim that they are 'mooring holes' but their geographical pattern
is consistent with them having a purpose. They have been shown to be
consistent with quite recent Icelandic land marking techniques which
have been in use almost from the beginning of the arrival of the Norse
in that country.

>
>> Some of the holes are associated with carved inscriptions such as the
>> Tyngsboro Map Stone. There is a deeply incised carving of a drinking
>> horn and another of a knife, both associated with tri-holes in South
>> Dakota.
>>
>A carving of a drinking horn or a knife is an inscription ?
>Were there also carvings of mooring holes ?
>Btw, "inscription" means some letters ("scribere" means writing), not
>some carvings.

It is argued that the carvings have a symbolic meaning consistent with
them recording the formalisation of a land agreement.

>
>
>> Then there are the numerous findings of Norse artifacts at and around
>> Sops Arm by Arlington Mallory.
>>
>Yep. Trade would be an explanation. Occam's razor and all that ...
>
>
>> K�re Prytz argues that Boston was the original site of Vinland and
>> that Norse works confirming this were found and destroyed in the
>> expansion of the city.
>>
>Nice argument. Austria was founded by 300000 year old aliens, but the
>artifacts proving that were destroyed.

How do you think K�re Prytz knows this? The considerable artifacts
(stone fish traps, remains of stone buildings and asociated works)
were recorded at the time.

>
>
>> More tenuous, the Sioux tribe have long established legends and
>> traditions about 'black robes' which appear to refer to members of the
>> clergy. Some of these can be interpreted as telling of their having
>> been visited by a pre-Columbian Bishop.
>>
>I'll give you a little hint : The ornate of a bishop isn't black.
>But don't let facts get in the way of a nice theory.

Seven or eight hundred years ago the robes of clergy were not
necessaril black, either. But in this case the legends do speak of
'black robes'. I don't know what, if any description, they give of the
bishop.

>There should be some coverage now about the election of a new pope.
>Watch it. Those clothes remained the same for 2000 years ...

That last claim is a nonsense. See
http://www.lookandlearn.com/if?search=papal+robes&bool=phrase for a
start.

>
>
>> When you take all of this and similar other material into account it
>> _is_ fairly safe to assume that the Norse had a far greater presence
>> in North America than is evidenced by L'Anse aux Meadows.
>>
>Yeah, sure.
>All that evidence, which disappears like fairy gold in the harsh light
>of the morning.
>Show me some solid evidence, like traces of buildings somewhere on the
>continent. Heck, I'll even settle for some buffalo hides in a grave in
>Scandinavia. Or foodstuffs from the new world.
>Or even some loan words in Indian languages.
>But there's nothing there ...

Why don't you don't mention the possibility of there being direct
evidence of a norse presence in North America?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[The Horny Goat]

I'm fascinated by the reports of Native American DNA turning up in
Iceland .... but the report I read suggested the quantity of DNA found
could be the result of 2 or 3 'skraeling' women taken to Iceland
which hardly equates to 'far greater presence' in my book.

One can easily believe in 2 or 3 captive women while not believing in
a great Vinlandian empire.

[Eric Stevens]

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 12:50:02 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
wrote:

The problem is detecting a 700 year old infusion of DNA against a more
recent infsion over 500 years.

There is one 'native' american tribe now in the Canada region which in
times past were regarded as intruders by the other tribes. I believe
their difference was such that in times past it even affected their
settlements with the Canadian government.

Please don't ask me who they were. It's too long ago since I read of
it and my memory is not improving with age.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[Michael Kuettner]

The tribe were the Ingerians.
Founded by Inger (E. Johanson).
In other words : Fiction.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[Eric Stevens]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 19:35:43 +0100, Michael Kuettner

Yes, Inger certainly picked them up and adorned them with her fancies.
However, she got the idea from elsewhere, which may have been my
original source. Come to think of it, the information about the
non-recognition by the Canadian government came from another source
and can be verified.

I may have the information in several meters of shelf space filled
with badly sorted documents. I will see if I can find the relevant
documents.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[robert...@gmail.com]

Ahhh, but what about that infamous Masonic joke, the KRS!?