The Medieval Challenge
Afropea
least one thing on topic. And no flames are allowed. Complaints about lack of
on topic posts do not count. Good luck!
Eve
David C. Pugh
Afropea <afr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010623005304...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
Nice one, Eve.
Because of the time difference, I can go first. I've just been reading
al-Juvaini on the admirable laws of the Mongols. Take a look at their
line on inheritance taxes:
"They have a custom that if an official or a peasant die, they do not
interfere with the estate he leaves, be it much or little, nor may
anyone else tamper with it. And if he has no heir, it is given to his
apprentice or his slave. On no account is the property of a dead man
admitted to the treasury, for they regard such a procedure as
inauspicious."
How very different from the policy of our own dear countries!
David
Mark Stafford
Everyone? This should be interesting...
I've just been reading about medieval stained glass, (I'm very bored
okay...) the colouration of which appears to have been created by addition
of iron & manganese which when heated under a wide variety of conditions is
capable of producing a range of colour from bright blue to green, yellow,
brown and pink to purple in various shades.
As it seems unlikely that a kilns conditions could be varied in the way it
can be today this means each glass house would probably produce it's own
shade of the colours, and for a glazier to obtain a full palette he would
have to shop around a little. Each glasshouse would then end up guarding the
'secret' to it's colours/shades.
Mark.
erilar
<davi...@online.no> wrote:
And how truly civilized!
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
Søren Larsen
Afropea <afr...@aol.com> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:20010623005304...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
Is it alright to troll on topic?
I'm currently reading Lov og Landskab/Law and Landscape by Anette Hoff.
She combines the oldest layers of early medieval laws from Denmark,Sweden
England, Northern Germany and some Frankish laws with archaeological
sources from village excavations in an effort to identify farmstructures and
understand
the cultivation systems.
She briefly mentions that The layout of the 'toft' in Danelaw resembles the
rather large
Danish 'tofts' and that a 'croft' is missing in the Danelaw area as in
Denmark
Is this layout of the villages a result of Danish settlement or is an older
feature?
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Frank Martin
Cobalt gives blue, copper gives green, iron gives
green/brown and mixes give intermediate colours. I can't
imagine how they derived the milk-white colour. I had
stained glass installed in the bathroom window at home and
the effect is stunning - all other colours in the room are
enhanced by the light from the window.
"Mark Stafford" <sb14...@wolmail.nl> wrote in message
news:9h2qtj$ke9$1...@nereid.worldonline.nl...
bogus address
> to post at least one thing on topic. And no flames are allowed.
> Complaints about lack of on topic posts do not count. Good luck!
OK, prompted by a flippant piece I've just posted...
What mediaeval records are there of *recreational* use of psycho-
active drugs in Western Europe? Rabelais alluded to cannabis used
as an intoxicant, but I can't think of an earlier mention of any of
the currently popular ones (berserking while off your head on fly
agaric is *not* currently popular). This is particularly odd in
the case of psilocybe semilanceata, which is very widespread and
whose effects are surely hard to mistake. (It grows profusely in
the fields right next to Iona Abbey, which kinda suggests where the
creators of the Book of Kells might have got some of their ideas).
========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Michael Kuettner
bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:78...@purr.demon.co.uk...
> > OK, this is a tough one. I challenge everyone on this newsgroup
> > to post at least one thing on topic. And no flames are allowed.
> > Complaints about lack of on topic posts do not count. Good luck!
>
> OK, prompted by a flippant piece I've just posted...
>
> What mediaeval records are there of *recreational* use of psycho-
> active drugs in Western Europe?
Strangely enough, the "Deutsche Reinheitsgebot" (a law regarding
the brewing of beer) is in fact an anti-drug law.
It explicitly forbids to add Bilsenkraut 'Hyoscyamus', a psycho-active
plant in *small* doses, to the beer.
From this we can conclude that the beer-drinking experience
was a little different in former times ....
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Rowanwald Central
meidieval period... the small, localized individuals who may or may not be
recognised by the Catholic church. I've been reduced to reading tour books
and guides to city names in order to try to find starting points for various
"small" saints. Since listing Baedeker's in my bibliography makes me twitch,
where would *you* go to try to fish for stories of these little known
legends?
Terri Morgan
Liz Broadwell
: I've been trying to find information about saints of the early/mid
I'd try the _Analecta Bollandiana_, a long-running journal for the
scholarly study of hagiography.
Peace,
Liz
--
Elizabeth Broadwell | "Who will read 423 pages about an unfin-
(ebro...@english.upenn.edu) | ished journey undertaken by mythical crea-
Department of English | tures with confusing names? Probably no
University of Pennsylvania | one, but I still say it is wonderful."
Philadelphia, PA | -- Anne Barrett
David C. Pugh
Liz Broadwell <ebro...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:9h4nbt$aup$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...
> Rowanwald Central (rowa...@sybercom.net) wrote:
> : I've been trying to find information about saints of the
early/mid
> : meidieval period... the small, localized individuals who may or
may not be
> : recognised by the Catholic church. I've been reduced to reading
tour books
> : and guides to city names in order to try to find starting points
for various
> : "small" saints. Since listing Baedeker's in my bibliography makes
me twitch,
> : where would *you* go to try to fish for stories of these little
known
> : legends?
>
> I'd try the _Analecta Bollandiana_, a long-running journal for the
> scholarly study of hagiography.
I remember this featuring in a novel by the excellent Robertson
Davies......
D
Matthew Harley
Rowanwald Central wrote:
You might try Golden Legend by Jacobus De Voragine, in a recent translation by
William Granger Ryan. It was a very popular medieval "lives of the saints" both
well-known and obscure. The stories contain all the fantastic and gorey details.
Matt Harley
Mark Stafford
achieved by the addition of any 'ingredient' other then iron and manganese
(usually derived from the beechwood ash that was added to the melt as a
flux).
The additional ingredient was copper in both cases (probably in the form of
brass filings given zinc is also present in many places.) Cobalt appears to
have been used only accidentally to colour glass before the seventeenth
century. The mysterious 'soda glass' which crops up in a few wide spread
sites (Chartres and York for example) appears to be the exception to this,
the cobalt being derived from the addition of 'little square stones' -
possibly fragments of mosaic from earlier times.
I expect the glasshouses using the mosaic fragments were the tightest lipped
about the secret of their blue colour, when coloured by cobalt the light
passing through the glass has a lot of red wavelengths in it giving a much
more violet colour then the more traditional blues, it must have made them
look a bit plain in comparison.
As for milk white, I don't know. The first colour listed in the
iron/manganese chain is 'white', but there's no definitive information I can
find to say if this means clear or milky.
Mark.
(A stained glass bathroom window sounds great. - Oh well, one day...)
"Frank Martin" <fr...@general.com.au> wrote in message
news:9h38tb$15ps$1...@otis.netspace.net.au...
Paul J. Gans
> In the medieval period red and some blues appear to be the only colours
> achieved by the addition of any 'ingredient' other then iron and manganese
> (usually derived from the beechwood ash that was added to the melt as a
> flux).
> The additional ingredient was copper in both cases (probably in the form of
> brass filings given zinc is also present in many places.) Cobalt appears to
> have been used only accidentally to colour glass before the seventeenth
> century. The mysterious 'soda glass' which crops up in a few wide spread
> sites (Chartres and York for example) appears to be the exception to this,
> the cobalt being derived from the addition of 'little square stones' -
> possibly fragments of mosaic from earlier times.
> I expect the glasshouses using the mosaic fragments were the tightest lipped
> about the secret of their blue colour, when coloured by cobalt the light
> passing through the glass has a lot of red wavelengths in it giving a much
> more violet colour then the more traditional blues, it must have made them
> look a bit plain in comparison.
> As for milk white, I don't know. The first colour listed in the
> iron/manganese chain is 'white', but there's no definitive information I can
> find to say if this means clear or milky.
> Mark.
> (A stained glass bathroom window sounds great. - Oh well, one day...)
This is a difficult question chemically. The color obtained
by the addition of what are called "transition metals" to
a glass melt depend upon the oxidation state of the metal.
This can be controlled by the amount of air let into the furnace.
The medieval techniques for doing this (and the amounts, etc.)
were doubtless kept secret.
Where the element easily exists in several oxidations states
(like iron or cobalt) one can get a range of colors running
(for iron) from green to blue to red, depending.
The environment of the transition metal also mattered.
by varying the relative amounts of lime and sand one can
also vary the color. Of course, the bulk properties of the
glass are also changed by this.
From what little I know about medieval glass, green was the
hardest color to obtain and was rather rare.
----- Paul J. Gans
Pamela Maddison
Michael Kuettner <mik...@eunet.at> wrote in message
news:SSgZ6.5$JA....@nreader1.kpnqwest.net...
England for special occasions, such as weedings ("bride ale" - hence
"bridal", "pertaining to weddings"), The active ingredient is thujone, the
substance that got absinthe banned. It being totally uncotrolled (one of
the commonest weeds round here) naturally we've tried it, but so far with no
success whatsoever.
Pamela Maddison
Søren Larsen <soh...@wanadoo.dk> wrote in message
news:9h3702$brd4a$2...@ID-35736.news.dfncis.de...
>
> Afropea <afr...@aol.com> skrev i en
> nyhedsmeddelelse:20010623005304...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
> > OK, this is a tough one. I challenge everyone on this newsgroup to post
> at
> > least one thing on topic. And no flames are allowed. Complaints about
> lack of
> > on topic posts do not count. Good luck!
> >
> > Eve
>
> Is it alright to troll on topic?
>
> I'm currently reading Lov og Landskab/Law and Landscape by Anette Hoff.
> She combines the oldest layers of early medieval laws from Denmark,Sweden
> England, Northern Germany and some Frankish laws with archaeological
> sources from village excavations in an effort to identify farmstructures
and
> understand
> the cultivation systems.
>
If she's combining early Frankish and other German (e.g. Burgundian) laws
with the other sources she must have had a hard time of it. All the most
recent works, and some of the older ones, that I have been looking at
recently are unanimous in saying that the main source for them, particularly
with regard to land, is Roman law. Quite honestly, I can't see Roman land
law having much influence on Scandinavia.
> She briefly mentions that The layout of the 'toft' in Danelaw resembles
the
> rather large
> Danish 'tofts' and that a 'croft' is missing in the Danelaw area as in
> Denmark
>
> Is this layout of the villages a result of Danish settlement or is an
older
> feature?
>
> Cheers
> Soren Larsen
I'm not sure that it is missing in the Danelaw; the best known site is
Wharram Percy and I'm reasonably sure it was "toft and croft". I suspect the
linguistic effect was stronger than the land-use patterns.
>
Søren Larsen
Pamela Maddison <pam...@pemmaddison.freeserve.co.uk> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:9h9a5c$79v$2...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Søren Larsen <soh...@wanadoo.dk> wrote in message
> news:9h3702$brd4a$2...@ID-35736.news.dfncis.de...
snip
> > I'm currently reading Lov og Landskab/Law and Landscape by Anette Hoff.
> > She combines the oldest layers of early medieval laws from
Denmark,Sweden
> > England, Northern Germany and some Frankish laws with archaeological
> > sources from village excavations in an effort to identify farmstructures
> and
> > understand
> > the cultivation systems.
> >
>
> If she's combining early Frankish and other German (e.g. Burgundian) laws
> with the other sources she must have had a hard time of it. All the most
> recent works, and some of the older ones, that I have been looking at
> recently are unanimous in saying that the main source for them,
particularly
> with regard to land, is Roman law. Quite honestly, I can't see Roman land
> law having much influence on Scandinavia.
It is not a legal study but a study using the legal codes as sources to throw
light on agricultural activity in the Viking age and later on the North European
plain and comparable nearby areas.
From the English summary:
"The method of analysis in this work consists of a survey of all the agrarian
legislation in the Danish provincial laws from Skautrup's edition of the sources,
looking for procedural and linguistic characteristics that identify earlier or later
strata amongst the legal chapters. After the actual contents of the agrarian
legislation are interpreted, they are compared with other legal sources of
North-Western Europe from the period ca. 500-1300, from which a pattern
of development can more clearly be seen. Finally, written sources, together
with archaeological and vegetational studies, are brought into the picture,
in order to expand the indirect evidence of the law books for the development
of agriculture and the cultural landscape from the Viking period into the
Middle Ages."
>
> > She briefly mentions that The layout of the 'toft' in Danelaw resembles
> the
> > rather large
> > Danish 'tofts' and that a 'croft' is missing in the Danelaw area as in
> > Denmark
> >
> > Is this layout of the villages a result of Danish settlement or is an
> older
> > feature?
> >
> > Cheers
> > Soren Larsen
>
> I'm not sure that it is missing in the Danelaw; the best known site is
> Wharram Percy and I'm reasonably sure it was "toft and croft". I suspect
the
> linguistic effect was stronger than the land-use patterns.
Is Wharram Percy in Danelaw?
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Hugin
"Søren Larsen" <soh...@wanadoo.dk> skrev
> From the English summary:
>
> "The method of analysis in this work consists of a survey of all the
agrarian
> legislation in the Danish provincial laws from Skautrup's edition of the
sources,
> looking for procedural and linguistic characteristics that identify
earlier or later
> strata amongst the legal chapters. After the actual contents of the
agrarian
> legislation are interpreted, they are compared with other legal sources of
> North-Western Europe from the period ca. 500-1300, from which a pattern
> of development can more clearly be seen. Finally, written sources,
together
> with archaeological and vegetational studies, are brought into the
picture,
> in order to expand the indirect evidence of the law books for the
development
> of agriculture and the cultural landscape from the Viking period into the
> Middle Ages."
This is really interesting and may be of great help in analysing landscapes
in Norway as well (mostly for the impact assessments I do, but also for
planning surveys). Do you have a full reference for it (so that I can try
to get it from the university library)?
Søren Larsen
Hugin <hu...@be.online.no> skrev i en nyhedsmeddelelse:gO2_6.203$tD1....@news3.oke.nextra.no...
>
snip
>
> This is really interesting and may be of great help in analysing landscapes
> in Norway as well (mostly for the impact assessments I do, but also for
> planning surveys). Do you have a full reference for it (so that I can try
> to get it from the university library)?
>
Annette Hoff
Lov og Landskab
Aarhus Universitetsforlag 1997
ISBN 87 7288 717 6
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Hugin
"Søren Larsen" <soh...@wanadoo.dk> skrev i melding
news:9hae3c$cl74s$1...@ID-35736.news.dfncis.de...
Mange takk :)
Heather Rose Jones
Ok -- I find myself likely to be in need of information on clothing in
medieval Brittany. Does anyone know names of people who might be
researching in this field? (I'm assuming that publications on this
topic are most likely to be in French -- which I can hack my way through
once I have it in front of me, but not necessarily well enough to locate
the publications in the first place.)
--
*********
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*********
erilar
<ga...@scholar.chem.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> This is a difficult question chemically. The color obtained
> by the addition of what are called "transition metals" to
> a glass melt depend upon the oxidation state of the metal.
> This can be controlled by the amount of air let into the furnace.
> The medieval techniques for doing this (and the amounts, etc.)
> were doubtless kept secret.
>
> Where the element easily exists in several oxidations states
> (like iron or cobalt) one can get a range of colors running
> (for iron) from green to blue to red, depending.
>
> The environment of the transition metal also mattered.
> by varying the relative amounts of lime and sand one can
> also vary the color. Of course, the bulk properties of the
> glass are also changed by this.
>
> From what little I know about medieval glass, green was the
> hardest color to obtain and was rather rare.
>
Interesting thread. A question popped into my head as I was reading
about the colors: Did any of the stained glass change color with age?
Kel Rekuta
>
> Michael Kuettner <mik...@eunet.at> wrote in message
> news:SSgZ6.5$JA....@nreader1.kpnqwest.net...
> >
> > bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:78...@purr.demon.co.uk...
> > > > OK, this is a tough one. I challenge everyone on this newsgroup
> > > > to post at least one thing on topic. And no flames are allowed.
> > > > Complaints about lack of on topic posts do not count. Good luck!
> > >
> > > OK, prompted by a flippant piece I've just posted...
> > >
> > > What mediaeval records are there of *recreational* use of psycho-
> > > active drugs in Western Europe?
> >
> > Strangely enough, the "Deutsche Reinheitsgebot" (a law regarding
> > the brewing of beer) is in fact an anti-drug law.
A very modern and tightly focussed conclusion that I cannot
agree with.
Beer (and ale) was very much a food product necessary in the
daily diet of northern Europeans. All sorts of things were
added to flavour the brew, including hops. Prior to the
Bavarian Purity Law of 1516 (Reinheitsgebot) the region's
brewing products were inferior to those of northern Germany.
Also, large amounts of wheat were malted and brewed, which
decreased available grain. The cost of bread increased
beyond the reach of the people who most relied on it.
There were several reasons for the Act, which began as a
local Munich ordinance. A small, but identifiable problem
dealt with by the Act was adulteration of ale with toxic
herbs. The overlying crisis was the damage the brewing
industry inflicted on the Bavarian economy.
> > It explicitly forbids to add Bilsenkraut 'Hyoscyamus', a psycho-active
> > plant in *small* doses, to the beer.
> > From this we can conclude that the beer-drinking experience
> > was a little different in former times ....
> >
And it was. Ales were typically heavier bodied, but lower
alcohol brews than we have today. Instead of weeks in kegs,
most ale was consumed quickly after fermentation. Although
some ales were very strong and aged, they were exceptional,
especially in cost. Even after the widespread adoption of
hops for bittering, beer tended to be quite heavy and dark
until the 18th century. Think of stouts, dark ales and bock
beers as the norm, not Pilsener and bitters.
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Michael Kuettner
> >
> >
> The plant Mugwort (Artemisia vulgaris) used to be added to beer brewed in
> England for special occasions, such as weedings ("bride ale" - hence
> "bridal", "pertaining to weddings"), The active ingredient is thujone, the
> substance that got absinthe banned. It being totally uncotrolled (one of
> the commonest weeds round here) naturally we've tried it, but so far with no
> success whatsoever.
But the concentration of thujone in mug wort is very low.
You have to put a massive amount into an ale, so much that
the brew is undrinkably bitter, to create a hazard. Thujone
derived from distillation of concentrated wormwood is the
the culprit in absinthe, if I recall correctly.
Nice topic! Thanks for a change in climate in this NG.
Cheers!
Kel
Mark Stafford
then church window glazier wrote that when his glass arrived at saffron
after firing it reddened with time, and when he produced a tawny colour it
changed to a reddish purple with time, however this doesn't appear to be a
period of years - more days or weeks. I suppose it's possible these shades
change even today.
Has anyone on the group spotted any strange colours in a window which this
could account for? (Purple or blue hair on figures doesn't count as brown
and black glass transmits light badly so it wasn't used, it was an aesthetic
decision!)
If the glass does change colour with time it's going to be difficult to
prove - red now or purply-red in 200 years - who's going to notice? Perhaps
early colour photo's could be used prove this - but photo's do change colour
with time so probably not - unless ILM or someone is prepared to 're-master'
them! Even then the colour of stained glass if effected by the quality of
light outside the building (part of it's beauty of course) and unless you
could be sure of duplicating the light conditions any comparison would be
compromised. Would a chemical experiment be able to prove this?
There's actually some information on Theophilus and his enamel glass at the
British Museum site:
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/science/enamels/sr-enamels-theophilus.html
Mark.
"erilar" <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:erilarloFRY-633D...@news.airstreamcomm.net...
bogus address
>>>> What mediaeval records are there of *recreational* use of psycho-
>>>> active drugs in Western Europe?
>>> Strangely enough, the "Deutsche Reinheitsgebot" (a law regarding
>>> the brewing of beer) is in fact an anti-drug law.
> A very modern and tightly focussed conclusion that I cannot agree with.
>>> plant in *small* doses, to the beer.
>>> From this we can conclude that the beer-drinking experience
>>> was a little different in former times ....
It takes very little hyoscyamus to send you completely off your head or
into a coma - far less than you could taste in beer, hence its use for
stunning kidnap victims in Colombia a few years back. But there may have
been another reason for using it. It dries your mouth out (hence the
present-day use of hyoscine as a pre-operative medication to suppress
secretion before general anaesthesia).
Dry mouth --> drink more beer to wet it --> even drier mouth... whoever
invented that trick could have walked straight into a job with the Coca-
Cola Company.
The body count involved in getting the dosage level right must have been
phenomenal.
Michael Kuettner
Kel Rekuta <kre...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3B38E48D...@sympatico.ca...
> Pamela Maddison wrote:
> >
> > Michael Kuettner <mik...@eunet.at> wrote in message
> > news:SSgZ6.5$JA....@nreader1.kpnqwest.net...
> > >
> > > bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:78...@purr.demon.co.uk...
> > > > > OK, this is a tough one. I challenge everyone on this
newsgroup
> > > > > to post at least one thing on topic. And no flames are
allowed.
> > > > > Complaints about lack of on topic posts do not count. Good
luck!
> > > >
> > > > OK, prompted by a flippant piece I've just posted...
> > > >
> > > > What mediaeval records are there of *recreational* use of
psycho-
> > > > active drugs in Western Europe?
> > >
> > > Strangely enough, the "Deutsche Reinheitsgebot" (a law regarding
> > > the brewing of beer) is in fact an anti-drug law.
>
> A very modern and tightly focussed conclusion that I cannot
> agree with.
>
> Beer (and ale) was very much a food product necessary in the
> daily diet of northern Europeans. All sorts of things were
> added to flavour the brew, including hops. Prior to the
> Bavarian Purity Law of 1516 (Reinheitsgebot) the region's
> brewing products were inferior to those of northern Germany.
> Also, large amounts of wheat were malted and brewed, which
> decreased available grain. The cost of bread increased
> beyond the reach of the people who most relied on it.
>
> There were several reasons for the Act, which began as a
> local Munich ordinance. A small, but identifiable problem
> dealt with by the Act was adulteration of ale with toxic
> herbs. The overlying crisis was the damage the brewing
> industry inflicted on the Bavarian economy.
>
Indeed.
> > > It explicitly forbids to add Bilsenkraut 'Hyoscyamus', a
psycho-active
> > > plant in *small* doses, to the beer.
> > > From this we can conclude that the beer-drinking experience
> > > was a little different in former times ....
> > >
>
> And it was. Ales were typically heavier bodied, but lower
> alcohol brews than we have today. Instead of weeks in kegs,
> most ale was consumed quickly after fermentation. Although
> some ales were very strong and aged, they were exceptional,
> especially in cost. Even after the widespread adoption of
> hops for bittering, beer tended to be quite heavy and dark
> until the 18th century. Think of stouts, dark ales and bock
> beers as the norm, not Pilsener and bitters.
>
Indeed.
The reason why I mentioned the anti-drug aspect is that
Hyoscyamus in wrong (larger) doses is deadly.
I think it was specifically mentioned because too many
people snuffed it after they've quaffed it; but that is
idle speculation.
<snip>
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Peter Nyikos
> OK, this is a tough one. I challenge everyone on this newsgroup to post at
> least one thing on topic. And no flames are allowed. Complaints about lack of
> on topic posts do not count. Good luck!
>
I accepted this one with pleasure. I went back over Google
and found to my dismay that I couldn't find any posts of
mine in threads with "Hamelin" in the title. Evidently
my netserver was already misbehaving back then.
Remember how I complained to you about the lack
of responses to it about two weeks ago? Now I think
I know the real reason. :-\
So I "re"posted two articles to the Subject: line
The Pied Piper of Hamelin: historical basis
just now. I'll do a third to that thread later today or tomorrow.
Hope to see you there.
Peter Nyikos -- standard disclaimer --
University of South Carolina
D. Spencer Hines
excellent idea?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Much have I travelled in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and
kingdoms seen; Round many western islands have I been, Which bards in
fealty to Apollo hold." -- John Keats [1795-1821] -- Poems [1817] -- "On
First Looking Into Chapman's Homer"
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
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given, in writing.
Vires et Honor.
"Peter Nyikos" <nyi...@math.sc.edu> wrote in message
news:4dc82dcf.01062...@posting.google.com...
Peter Nyikos
> OK, this is a tough one. I challenge everyone on this newsgroup to post at
> least one thing on topic. And no flames are allowed. Complaints about lack of
> on topic posts do not count. Good luck!
>
> Eve
Hello again, Eve. I did a third post to the thread I started
on the historical basis for the Pied Piper of Hamelin. It's
solidly on-topic because if there was a historical basis,
the key year was 1284; also the location is Europe, indeed
Western Europe, and maybe even in that Gansian world known
as "The Bermuda Triangle."
Remember how I'd told you that I hadn't gotten responses to
this thread nor on two other threads I started in late May
and early June? Well, evidently NONE of those posts made it
to the big outside world. My netserver is very deceptive
on that score because it shows posts that have defaulted
to the local web, which is not read by anyone in this newsgroup AFAIK,
but gives no sign that they did not make it to the big outside
world.
So today I am reposting the remaining posts I talked about,
using Google since my netserver still seems defaulted to
the local web as far as posting goes [It still shows posts
from the big outside world, though]. A short while ago
I did the first of two posts on "Medieval natural disasters",
focusing on the creation of the Zuider Zee in the 13th century.
After I exit here I will try to start a thread, "Medieval fiction".
Unlike the long-running thread "Historical fiction," this would
have to do with works of fiction that were written in medieval
times.
I hope to see you on at least one of these three threads before
I go on my posting break at the end of this week.
Peter Nyikos -- standard disclaimer --
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
University of South Carolina
Columbia, SC 29208
Efthimia T. Kokotos Leonardi
I've had a message through a friend that Eve's computer has crashed and so
she
is unable to post at the moment....which truly annoys her given the
circumstances here.
She ought to be back soon
Best
EKL
Afropea wrote in message <20010623005304...@ng-mg1.aol.com>...
Afropea
>Interesting thread. A question popped into my head as I was reading
>about the colors: Did any of the stained glass change color with age?
Actually, I was just reading about wall paintings and one of the comments was
the advantage of stain glass over painting was that the colors did not change.
Whether this is true or not I have no guarantee. I do know that stain glass at
times has paint added to the surface to create details and the paint itself
might age or flake.
Eve
erilar
afr...@aol.com (Afropea) wrote:
Yes, I've seen what looks like painted stained glass in museums. I
realize we don't know what colors the glass started out, of course, but
I know that ordinary glass (bottles. I think) can change color, though
the explanation does not seem to have lodged in my memory.
Mark Stafford
Where can I get more info on painting coloured glass? I haven't come across
that technique.
As for the changing colours, I think the enamel example I used was
misleading, and probably more to do with the different techniques used in
that process. I don't think the glass in windows would change colour with
age and exposure to sunlight and air - glass is quite well known for not
reacting to things. :-)
Although in another way the glass has changed with time, - the glass that is
produced has become much duller. Since the renaissance we've simply got too
good at making glass, there are less bubbles and flaws, we make solid reds
instead of trying to dilute red antique and forming multiple layers of red
and clear glass - modern glass just doesn't 'glow' in the same way because
of this, the light isn't held -giving a luminous quality, - still new
techniques in flashing and staining with silver compounds give more modern
windows their own beauty, but there I move OT and fail the challenge :-).
Which wall-paintings are you reading about? (not that I know much about
wall-paintings, but sounds interesting.)
Mark.
"Afropea" <afr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010630084112...@ng-mm1.aol.com...
Afropea
>that technique.
I imagine any good book on the history of stain glass would give you enough
info. I used to have one but in one of my bouts with poverty I sold it.
I vaguely recall that the glass was painted for small details at first (such as
in the face or suggestions of a beard). In time the painting became more
extensive and even included a suggestion of modeling. I think this was one of
those instances where the demands of style influenced technique. I don't think
this should be too hard to look up and if I've made any mistakes I hope you'll
be able to correct me!
>Although in another way the glass has changed with time, - the glass that
>is
>produced has become much duller. Since the renaissance we've simply got
>too
>good at making glass, there are less bubbles and flaws, we make solid reds
>instead of trying to dilute red antique and forming multiple layers of red
>and clear glass - modern glass just doesn't 'glow' in the same way because
>of this, the light isn't held -giving a luminous quality, - still new
>techniques in flashing and staining with silver compounds give more modern
>windows their own beauty, but there I move OT and fail the challenge :-).
Those are interesting things to consider.
>Which wall-paintings are you reading about? (not that I know much about
>wall-paintings, but sounds interesting.)
>
At the time I was reading about Romanesque painting. According to this source
all the churches of the time were covered with them (except in Tuscany where
the fashion differed). Eventually they were removed when the vogue was to
marvel at the beauty of the masonry (I believe this was a 19th century thing).
I don't imagine the paintings were in pristine condition at the time, but it
seems a crime not to have made an effort to preserve them.
Eve
Pangur Ban
the sun for 50 to100+ years. It is tinted a lovely purple color. Sunlight
causes chemical changes in the glass. Depnding on the chemical composition
of the glass it can also turn a very nice blue. An unbroken piece of
sun-glass can fetch a very nice price from a collector.
Some window panes which have been in situ for a century also turn color (I
am speaking of the American Southwest). I would suspect that painted
(stained) glass would also change color. The northeast would have glass
tinted by the sun also, but much more slowly due to the weaker intensity of
the sun. I suspect that European glass windows would take a VERY long time
to acquire a tint due to the climate - but would also be willing to wager
that medieval glassmakers would not find the original colors of their works
still existant today.
--
Pangur Ban, E.P.
Danu Jake, Betty Boop, Maggie, PB, and Hadrian
one of the comments was the advantage of stain glass over painting was that
the colors did not change.
> > Whether this is true or not I have no guarantee.
> Yes, I've seen what looks like painted stained glass in museums. I
Brant Gibbard
wrote:
>As for the changing colours, I think the enamel example I used was
>misleading, and probably more to do with the different techniques used in
>that process. I don't think the glass in windows would change colour with
>age and exposure to sunlight and air - glass is quite well known for not
>reacting to things. :-)
Much surviving Roman glassware has started to exfoliate, and acquired an
iridescence after being buried in the sand for a couple of thousand
years. Unfortunately I have no idea what the chemical process involved
would be.
Brant Gibbard
bgib...@inforamp.net
http://home.inforamp.net/~bgibbard/gen
Toronto, ON
bogus address
"Pangur Ban" <pang...@qwest.net> writes:
> I enjoy walking in the desert looking for glass which has been exposed
> Sunlight causes chemical changes in the glass. Depending on the chemical
> composition of the glass it can also turn a very nice blue. An unbroken
> piece of sun-glass can fetch a very nice price from a collector.
These are reflection tints, caused by interference in surface layers
(like the purple or greenish tint on a coated camera lens). They don't
affect the colour produced in transmission, which is what you see when
looking through a stained-glass window. (Similarly, the interference
tint of a lens coating doesn't affect the colour balance of photos taken
with it).
Uwe Müller
"Brant Gibbard" <bgib...@inforamp.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:i89tjtg6q7b9m5drn...@4ax.com...
>snip>
Depending on the chemical composition, glass will indeed age. It will split
up in very fine layers, destroying the glass eventually, 'Glass Pest' it's
called in German.
Painted 'stained glass' wass, afair, coloured glass painted with a
silver-something substance for finer details. This might have been shading,
details of face or dress, or scrollwork (found some myself).
I can supply german language references, If needed.
Have fun
Uwe Mueller
Bryn Fraser
<afr...@aol.com> writes
look closely at very old stained glass (as I imagine 12th Century). The
majority of the glass is obviously as intended, the colours are as
strong they could be. Painted detail appears to be sandwiched between
two sheets of glass one of which provides the background colour and has
the detail painted on it then it a clear piece over the top. This may
have not been a standard practice but makes good sense.
Pigments in the glass are very similar colour to those used in glass
enamels up to the late 1960s before health concerns restricted the use
of some pigments...
Bryn
Remember grasshopper, its easier to run backwards for a
hundred miles than to get the egg back into the chicken...
http://www.finhall.demon.co.uk http://www.thefrasers.com
Foot & Mouth Latest:
http://www.eastpenrest.freeserve.co.uk/foot-and-mouth.htm
Afropea
>two sheets of glass one of which provides the background colour and has
>the detail painted on it then it a clear piece over the top. This may
>have not been a standard practice but makes good sense.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder if anyone else out there has up close
and personal experience so that we might determine if this was common.
Eve
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
afr...@aol.com (Afropea) wrote:
> but it
> seems a crime not to have made an effort to preserve them.
Wall painting used to be fairly common in Britain. What has survived
seems to have been the result of the ECW. To avoid the effort of
scraping the wall the Puritans plastered over the top, in the process
preserving the paintings.
The surviving paintings seem to be confined to parish churches.
Ken Young
ken...@cix.co.uk
Maternity is a matter of fact
Paternity is a matter of opinion
erilar
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> In article <20010630210334...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
> afr...@aol.com (Afropea) wrote:
>
> > but it
> > seems a crime not to have made an effort to preserve them.
> Wall painting used to be fairly common in Britain. What has survived
> seems to have been the result of the ECW. To avoid the effort of
> scraping the wall the Puritans plastered over the top, in the process
> preserving the paintings.
> The surviving paintings seem to be confined to parish churches.
I remember seeing some remarkably fresh-looking wall painting in a
German church(I forget which one) and asking whether they had been
restored. The answer was no: they had only fairly recently been
rediscovered. They had been painted over.
Afropea
>> In article <20010630210334...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
>> afr...@aol.com (Afropea) wrote:
>>
>> > but it
>> > seems a crime not to have made an effort to preserve them.
>> Wall painting used to be fairly common in Britain. What has survived
>
>> seems to have been the result of the ECW. To avoid the effort of
>> scraping the wall the Puritans plastered over the top, in the process
>
>> preserving the paintings.
>> The surviving paintings seem to be confined to parish churches.
>
>I remember seeing some remarkably fresh-looking wall painting in a
>German church(I forget which one) and asking whether they had been
>restored. The answer was no: they had only fairly recently been
>rediscovered. They had been painted over.
In the book I read, which I believe was Andreas Petzold's "Romanesque Art" (I
could track it down if anyone would like) the author was saying that in the
19th century many of these white washed walls were stripped complete with any
painting underneath. "Bare walls" became the fashion so that one could get a
feel of the architecture without applied ornament. If this is true, you folks
seem to have found the lucky places that missed this trend.
Eve
sophia
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk writes
>
>> but it
>> seems a crime not to have made an effort to preserve them.
> Wall painting used to be fairly common in Britain. What has survived
>seems to have been the result of the ECW. To avoid the effort of
>scraping the wall the Puritans plastered over the top, in the process
>preserving the paintings.
Generally it was paint or whitewash they used, I believe.
> The surviving paintings seem to be confined to parish churches.
There's also good examples in Eton College chapel, a few monastic
sites such as Cleeve Abbey, and some castles (eg, Longthorpe
Tower, Northants which has a particularly fine painted chamber).
Fragments of the decor from the old palace of Westminster, which
was famous for its paintings, also survive.
>
--
Sophia
Faith in Fabulousness
www.arxana.demon.co.uk/
icq: 93834408
Bryn Fraser
<sop...@arxana.demon.co.uk> writes
The Undercroft of Canterbury Cathedral has some nice fragments, some in
full colour..
>>
>
Bryn
Hell is waiting for Godot on all four channels!
Tony Jebson
[snip]
> Wall painting used to be fairly common in Britain. What has
survived
> seems to have been the result of the ECW. To avoid the effort of
> scraping the wall the Puritans plastered over the top, in the
process
> preserving the paintings.
I think one of the earliest examples is in a (formerly ruined) church
in Suffolk and dates from the 13th century (from memory). ISTR that
they are currently rewriting some bits of art history as a result . .
.
I'm hoping to see them at Christmas.
--- Tony Jebson
Soren Larsen
I know I have pushed this site before: http://www.kalkmalerier.dk/
But it seems relevant again.
It is a database of wall paintings in Danish Churches with pictures.
There are over 1000 churches in DK with surviving murals dating from
ca 1100 to 1550 and new paintings are being discovered almost each
year.
The database can be searched with english keywords but there is no
instruction
in english and no list of keywords in english yet.
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Bryn Fraser
Larsen <ed...@gyldendal.dk> writes
>afr...@aol.com (Afropea) wrote in message news:<20010702133412.10901.00002168@n
Thanks Soren
Afropea
>I know I have pushed this site before: http://www.kalkmalerier.dk/
>But it seems relevant again.
>It is a database of wall paintings in Danish Churches with pictures.
>There are over 1000 churches in DK with surviving murals dating from
>ca 1100 to 1550 and new paintings are being discovered almost each
>year.
Wow! Thanks! That's fantastic!
Eve
Albo
Afropea <afr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<20010702133412...@ng-ba1.aol.com>...
> In the book I read, which I believe was Andreas Petzold's "Romanesque
Art" (I
> could track it down if anyone would like) the author was saying that in
the
> 19th century many of these white washed walls were stripped complete
with any
> painting underneath. "Bare walls" became the fashion so that one could
get a
> feel of the architecture without applied ornament. If this is true, you
folks
> seem to have found the lucky places that missed this trend.
Another place to find wall paintings is the church of Saint Barbara in
Kutna Hora, Bohemia. Although defined as a parish church, this is a
substantial building as the town was one of the largest in Europe in the
14 and 15th centuries due to its silver mines. The paintings exist
primarily in the choir.
There is a little book by E Clive Rouse on English wall paintings which
has lots of illustrations of what he found in the parish churches. It may
be hard find outside of the UK-the ISBN is 0 7478 0144 4 if you're
interested.
The parish church of Salisbury (NOT the cathedral) has a famous Doom
painting done in vibrant greens and red-quite effective.
Cheers
D. Spencer Hines
Battles'.
Peter Nyikos really should pick up on that again and finish the story.
He left it hanging.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Having taught in a university history department for more than 36 years
now, I would seek objectivity from anyone on the street before asking an
academic colleague in history." Norman Ravitch, Professor of History,
University of California, Riverside in _ The Wall Street Journal _ , 5
Nov 1998, p. A23.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor.
"Albo" <malco...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
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