Drinks In Naval Wardrooms & Messes -- Pre-Daniels
D. Spencer Hines
Josephus Daniels and General Order 99.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_Daniels
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq59-11.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq32-1.htm
DSH
"TOliver" <tolive...@Hot.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jgJ3h.6092$lx6...@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> In naval wardrooms and messes, Gordons [sic] was once the standard for a
> drink rarely seen today, the "Pink", justly mourned in its passing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon's_Gin
Vince
glass, coat the glass pour off the excess (if you like it out rather
than In) and fill with cold gin
Its a Royal Navy thing Im not sure it was ever popular in the USN
Vince
Eugene Griessel
It was fairly popular in the colonial navies too. My old man used to
enjoy his "Harry Pinkers" from time to time.
Eugene L Griessel
Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from
acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
Mad Dog anti-re-cycling
That is correct one asks for a pink gin "in" or "out" and water is very
often added, it is drunk straight up.
--
"A horse a horse my kingdom for a horse, I haven't had a winner in six
months".
MD
Errors left for the pedant.
D. Spencer Hines
But what were the drinks and wines served in wardrooms of the United States
Navy Pre-General Order 99, of 1 June 1914?
And What Were The Rules?
Does anyone know?
How about in United States Army Officers' Messes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_Daniels
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq59-11.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq32-1.htm
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Deus Vult
Sholem Aleichem
Allah Akbar
Tron
"Vince" <fir...@firelaw.us> skrev i melding
news:Oa2dnf-52P7fBNLY...@comcast.com...
> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>> Tell us more about the "Pink" and other drinks in naval wardrooms before
>> Josephus Daniels and General Order 99.
>>
AFAIK the Navy has the honour of inventing the "drink" as such, spec. in the
form of what is now known as the "Gimlet", i.e. gin and lime juice, which
was coneived as a remedy for scurvy, lime juice bing rich in Vitamin C,
which cured said disease.
One must presume that drinking lime juice was not popular among sailors, so
it was mixed with gin to make it acceptable.
T
Sheila J
"Tron" <tron...@frizurf.no> wrote in message
news:gJOdnSjb3_j...@telenor.com...
In the "history of the world" book I mentioned earlier, the author uses the
above-mentioned example as being the basis for his reasoning that the
British navy became the might that it was. The British sailor was drinking
fermented *spirits*, mixed with some form of 'juice', which, inevitably
helped them fight scurvy. The French navy remained on wine rations only;
wine not contributing any sort of vitamins necessary to fight scurvy or
other such nastiness. According to the author, it was this fundamental
difference in the drinking contents that lay at the root of British
superiority at sea. I can't remember off the top of my head at the moment,
but didn't Gilbert and Sullivan even mention the use of spirits with juice
as being an effective tonic against scurvy?
Speaking of tonic, the origins of G&Ts makes for a nifty story (even if it
is may just be a so-so, urban legend..) Quinine being needed to fight off
malaria and quinine included in the 'tonic' drinks of the day (tonic =the
quack's cure-all-for-what-all -ails you ..it also included opium etc at some
points) Officers in India being proper English gentlemen (or at the very
least aspiring to be...but that is a much longer thread..) they decided that
adding Gin to the 'tonic' would be even more civilized and therefore, by
extension, healthier. Thus, G&Ts being consumed whenever the sun reaches
'over the yardarm'.
I also read earlier in one of these threads a discussion comparing the
merits of Bombay Sapphire Gin and Gordons? (I saw it as Gordoons in Egypt
recently) While I am personally enamored of the story of Wolseley and the
Canadians during the NILE expedition, and therefore, by extension, Gordon
(although the Gin, contrary to the belief of some, was not named after
General Gordon,+) I remain an even firmer admirer of Victoria and the
beautiful blue colour of the Sapphire Gin (hey, wait...my engagement ring is
a large sapphire encircled by diamonds..is there a trend here,
subconsciously...?)and the ingredients in Bombay Gin are a very obvious
reminder of the sun-never=set days of Great Britain....which, to my mind,
brings forth images of the *GLORY DAYS* ( not Secret Affairs' version but
the British empire version). of Victoria's reign - the days of Kipling,
Wolseley, Gilbert and Sullivan, cabbage roses, Rule Britannia, Tennyson and
Charge of the Light Brigade etc...., and Sapphire/Bombay Gin consisting of
then, what it still consists of today -and doesn't this sound
glorious!!!: -straight from the label on the bottle
a. Spanish almonds;
b. Lemons from Spain;
c. Liquorices from China;
d. Italian Juniper berries
e. Orris root from Italy;
f. Angelica from Saxony;
g. Mexican coriander;
h. Cassia bark from Indo-China; and,
i. Cubeb berries from Java
But if that was not enough, the original recipe *that dates back to 1761*
(according to Wikipedia....) also contains the GRAINS OF PARADISE from West
Africa (consisting of, among other things, lavender, pepper, orange and wait
for it...and I'm sure this is the clincher, CHOCOLATE)
So...I see now...
-as I have carefully worked out why I am so taken by Bombay Sapphire Gin
-as I have waded through my fondness of sapphires, Victoria and imperialism,
the lowest common denominator remains, and this always seems to be the case,
my unquenchable longing, and deeply ingrained need for,
*** chocolate.***
Mystery solved and I hadn't even realized there was a case!
*Oh, the pleasures of being bed-bound, cozy and within easy reach of strong
pain killers.....*
Kill-file me now folks, while you still have a chance....... :D
Mad Dog anti-re-cycling
|| Kill-file me now folks, while you still have a chance....... :D
There was a pink gin pre bottled and was called Sir Robert Burnett's.
FWIW
Mad Dog anti-re-cycling
Going back to Elizabethan times lemons or lime juice was given to sailors to
deter scurvy. This was not standard practice though and it was under the
discretion of respective Captains as they would have to purchase the lemons
or limes themselves.
In later times the sailors would probably have this taken out of their pay
as they did most other things.
TOliver
"Sheila J" <wolsele...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:uaf4h.274399$1T2.29402@pd7urf2no...
>
> "Tron" <tron...@frizurf.no> wrote in message
> news:gJOdnSjb3_j...@telenor.com...
>>
>> "Vince" <fir...@firelaw.us> skrev i melding
>> news:Oa2dnf-52P7fBNLY...@comcast.com...
>>> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>>>> Tell us more about the "Pink" and other drinks in naval wardrooms
>>>> before
>>>> Josephus Daniels and General Order 99.
>>>>
>>
>> AFAIK the Navy has the honour of inventing the "drink" as such, spec. in
>> the form of what is now known as the "Gimlet", i.e. gin and lime juice,
>> which was coneived as a remedy for scurvy, lime juice bing rich in
>> Vitamin C, which cured said disease.
>> One must presume that drinking lime juice was not popular among sailors,
>> so it was mixed with gin to make it acceptable.
>>
>
>
> In the "history of the world" book I mentioned earlier, the author uses
> the above-mentioned example as being the basis for his reasoning that the
> British navy became the might that it was. The British sailor was
> drinking fermented *spirits*, mixed with some form of 'juice', which,
> inevitably helped them fight scurvy.
I suspect that along with the anti-scorbutic nature of lime juice (lessened
by its preservation process which results in that nasty tasting "Rose's",
apparently pretty close to what RN shipboard LJ must have been like) were
greatly aided by the RN's regular dependence on sauerkraut.
>The French navy remained on wine rations only; wine not contributing any
>sort of vitamins necessary to fight scurvy or other such nastiness.
For many years, the RN had also issued wine, a particular nasty variety from
Spanish and NAfrican sources, called by the sailors "Blackstrap", a term
later adopted for molasses. Rum presented an attractive alternative, a
voyage allowance stowable in a smaller space, since it was diluted with
water at issue. Channel and Home Fleet units probably kept wine longer,
while West Indian and "American" stations were in markets where rum was a
local product. I suspect that ships destined for India or the Far East may
have topped off with brandy at the Cape, and a variety of cane alchols were
available early on in SEAsia. The "traditional" dark, heavy rums (of the
style of "Pusser's") were simply not available in all the markets RN
purveyors were forced to shop.
> According to the author, it was this fundamental difference in the
> drinking contents that lay at the root of British superiority at sea. I
> can't remember off the top of my head at the moment, but didn't Gilbert
> and Sullivan even mention the use of spirits with juice as being an
> effective tonic against scurvy?
>
> Speaking of tonic, the origins of G&Ts makes for a nifty story (even if it
> is may just be a so-so, urban legend..) Quinine being needed to fight off
> malaria and quinine included in the 'tonic' drinks of the day (tonic =the
> quack's cure-all-for-what-all -ails you ..it also included opium etc at
> some points) Officers in India being proper English gentlemen (or at the
> very least aspiring to be...but that is a much longer thread..) they
> decided that adding Gin to the 'tonic' would be even more civilized and
> therefore, by extension, healthier. Thus, G&Ts being consumed whenever
> the sun reaches 'over the yardarm'.
I allus thought the damn tonic tasted so bad that it toiok a slug of gin to
make it drinkable. I do know what to expect when taking large doses of
quinine....dizziness, riging in the ears, etc.. Jesuit's Bark/Cinchona is
pretty strong stuff, and during WWII, its cultivation and harvesting became
an important issue for Allied governments, one of the areas like planting
hemp in Indiana - resulting today in the availability of "ditch weed" and
the supplies of teak for carrier flight decks, a major factor in British
attempts to defend Burma. I was required to take leftover WWII-era Atabrine
for a while, a fate almost as bad as qunine, resulting in almost immediate
symptoms of jaundice, but then in vast parts of the world, malaria caused
and still causes (by weakening and lowering resistance of those who suffere
from it) more deaths than folks realize. In large parts of the US South in
the 19th Century, malaria was apparently the major/largest cause of death in
adults
Well, natural ingredients probably are better than the esters from the
chemists' test tubes, the "flavoring agents" for cheap gins
>
> So...I see now...
> -as I have carefully worked out why I am so taken by Bombay Sapphire Gin
> -as I have waded through my fondness of sapphires, Victoria and
> imperialism, the lowest common denominator remains, and this always seems
> to be the case, my unquenchable longing, and deeply ingrained need for,
> *** chocolate.***
The variety of proprietary recipes (and ingredients therein) is amazing,
with orange/lemon peel and juniper berries among the almost constants.
Martin
Gin was actually a 17th/18th C Dutch invention, which was first maufactured by
an apothecary as 'a tonic' itself, and sold as a sort of pick-me-up medicine.
For some unknown reason (I suspect its cheapness), the British liked it and took
to it big time, although they tended to prefer it by the pint as a
'knock-me-down' rather than a pick-me-up.
It was at first very 'working class' (see Hogarth's famous Gin Lane, which shows
how much it was 'enjoyed' and the after effects), and advertised in pubs as
'drunk for a penny, dead drunk for tuppence'. A series of ropes were sometimes
slung up in some room behind the pub, where gin drinkers could hand by their
armpits and sleep it off.
Of course, we had no 'binge drinking' problem officially then, and no drug
problem either, since opiates such as laudenham (opium tincture mixed with honey
and cheap brandy) were freely available to all, supplied legally by any corner
shop or public house for a few coppers (very nice with gin I expect, and
certainly a good remedy for any hangovers caused by the stuff).
It was only later that gin became a drink for toffs, when taxation increased the
price beyond the pockets of the poor. Quite why the Royal Navy became associated
with it is a mystery, I can't believe that it had any magical tonic effect on
the sailors, who may have been issued it mixed with water instead of 'grog'
(rum) several times a day, in quantities that would appall even my old GP, who
was rather partial to a drop himself.
Quinine is extremely bitter, so mixing it with gin probably made it more
drinkable. What to mix gin with (or not) is another matter. I don't know if it
was mixed with lime juice to prevent scurvey at sea, but it seems a good idea.
Quite what gin tasted like back in Nelson's day, I have no idea, other than it
was much stronger than the weedy 40% stuff like Gordons and Gibleys we see
today. Woods Navy rum is a far better drink IMO....
British Naval officers (who until recently, suffered from cirrhosis of the liver
second only to publicans and hotel owners statistically) tend to drink it by
preference and/or tradition, and it would be the natural thing to serve in most
wardrooms. The Royal Navy used to favour 'pink gin' I believe, which involves
swirling a few drops of Angostura Bitters around the glass, tipping out the
excess, then adding neat gin. No ice...
The superiority of the RN in the old days was probably due to very thorough
training, good motivation and far better rations. Other nations were somewhat
neglectful of their sailors at times, and it showed. By the end of the C18, the
RN was very fussy indeed about quality control, especially when it came to
provisions and equipment.
Cheers
Martin
Sheila J
"Mad Dog anti-re-cycling" <r.anthon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vGn4h.25065$Ib....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> Tron wrote:
> || "Vince" <fir...@firelaw.us> skrev i melding
> || news:Oa2dnf-52P7fBNLY...@comcast.com...
> ||| D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> |||| Tell us more about the "Pink" and other drinks in naval wardrooms
> |||| before Josephus Daniels and General Order 99.
> ||||
> ||
> || AFAIK the Navy has the honour of inventing the "drink" as such, spec.
> in
> || the form of what is now known as the "Gimlet", i.e. gin and lime juice,
> || which was coneived as a remedy for scurvy, lime juice bing rich in
> || Vitamin C, which cured said disease.
> || One must presume that drinking lime juice was not popular among
> sailors,
> || so it was mixed with gin to make it acceptable.
> ||
> || T
>
> Going back to Elizabethan times lemons or lime juice was given to sailors
> to deter scurvy. This was not standard practice though and it was under
> the discretion of respective Captains as they would have to purchase the
> lemons or limes themselves.
>
> In later times the sailors would probably have this taken out of their pay
> as they did most other things.
>
They weren't buying 'scurvy prevention' drinks by the 19th C...that was paid
by the crown.
Sheila J
"Martin" <martin...@spamfuktiscali.co.uk> >> >
(snip interesting lines)
>>
>> The variety of proprietary recipes (and ingredients therein) is amazing,
>> with orange/lemon peel and juniper berries among the almost constants.
>> >
>> > Mystery solved and I hadn't even realized there was a case!
>> >
>> > *Oh, the pleasures of being bed-bound, cozy and within easy reach of
>> > strong pain killers.....*
>> > Kill-file me now folks, while you still have a chance....... :D
>
> Gin was actually a 17th/18th C Dutch invention, which was first
> maufactured by
> an apothecary as 'a tonic' itself, and sold as a sort of pick-me-up
> medicine.
> For some unknown reason (I suspect its cheapness), the British liked it
> and took
> to it big time, although they tended to prefer it by the pint as a
> 'knock-me-down' rather than a pick-me-up.
>
> It was at first very 'working class' (see Hogarth's famous Gin Lane, which
> shows
> how much it was 'enjoyed' and the after effects), and advertised in pubs
> as
> 'drunk for a penny, dead drunk for tuppence'. A series of ropes were
> sometimes
> slung up in some room behind the pub, where gin drinkers could hand by
> their
> armpits and sleep it off.
It is quite interesting to read Mayhew's collection of observations re: gin
and the East End prostitutes. A cup of 'warm gin' was enough to motivate
some women to take to the street and an 'addiction' to gin becomes sort of a
chicken-egg thing. Were women more likely to go on the streets because they
were intoxicated by gin or were they on the streets to satisfy this
addiction? 'A mug of gin' is peppered throughout the literature on
Victorian prostitution and VD.
The argument I was trying to avoid (since it is OT here historically..but
...) was that by army officers drinking it in India -and all things Indian
and military becoming en vogue in later 19th C England, gin became seen as a
more upscale *drinky-poo* than other spirits.
>
> Of course, we had no 'binge drinking' problem officially then, and no drug
> problem either, since opiates such as laudenham (opium tincture mixed with
> honey
> and cheap brandy) were freely available to all, supplied legally by any
> corner
> shop or public house for a few coppers (very nice with gin I expect, and
> certainly a good remedy for any hangovers caused by the stuff).
>
> It was only later that gin became a drink for toffs, when taxation
> increased the
> price beyond the pockets of the poor.
This certainly wouldn't have hurt its popularity...
Quite why the Royal Navy became associated
> with it is a mystery, I can't believe that it had any magical tonic effect
> on
> the sailors, who may have been issued it mixed with water instead of
> 'grog'
> (rum) several times a day, in quantities that would appall even my old GP,
> who
> was rather partial to a drop himself.
Grog was still officially on the rations books as late as 1918...
William Black
> Grog was still officially on the rations books as late as 1918...
Nope.
Rum was.
Grog is one part rum and three parts water.
A daily ration was a pint of this stuff. RN sailors were not allowed neat
rum except under very special circumstances.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Sheila J
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eithav$6hq$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
>
> "Sheila J" <wolsele...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:Gwr4h.280117$5R2.146325@pd7urf3no...
>
>> Grog was still officially on the rations books as late as 1918...
>
> Nope.
>
> Rum was.
>
> Grog is one part rum and three parts water.
>
> A daily ration was a pint of this stuff. RN sailors were not allowed neat
> rum except under very special circumstances.
..of course, William. You are correct - I should have been more
specific...(although I have read reports that state that 'neat rum' was
given as a reward for certain taskings....)
William Black
Divers certainly expected it, I seem to remember reading that only
'clearance divers' got it as a matter of routine.
Senior rates were issued neat rum.
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
------------------------------------------------
<http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/036-35_e.asp>
6. When the order "Splice the Main Brace" is given in a ship, every
member is entitled to receive a special issue of 87.5 Ml (2.5 fl oz) per
person of spirits.
7. The order "Splice the Main Brace" may only be given by:
a. a member of the Royal Family:
b. the Governor General of Canada: or
c. the Chief of the Defence Staff.
-------------------------------------------------------
How does this work in the United Kingdom and Australia, i.e., who can order
"Splice The Main Brace" there?
DSH
"Andrew Chaplin" <ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote in message
news:XKWdnQKEuslRUcjY...@giganews.com...
> We are still allowed to issue spirits:
< http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/036-35_e.asp>
William Black
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9l5h.84$255...@eagle.america.net...
>
> How does this work in the United Kingdom and Australia, i.e., who can
> order "Splice The Main Brace" there?
As far as I'm aware only the Queen in her capacity as Lord High Admiral.
They'd have a job anyway, little or no rum is carried on HM Ships these
days.
I imagine that there's a bottle or two of Pusser's Rum in the wardroom bar
and the POs mess but apart from that there probably won't be much if any.
D. Spencer Hines
order Splice The Mainbrace?
DSH
"Andrew Chaplin" <ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote in message
news:9rednTXzSpO3c8jY...@giganews.com...
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ej4nn7$hag$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
>>
>> "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:a9l5h.84$255...@eagle.america.net...
>>
>>> How does this work in the United Kingdom and Australia, i.e., who can
>>> order "Splice The Main Brace" there?
>>
>> As far as I'm aware only the Queen in her capacity as Lord High Admiral.
>>
>> They'd have a job anyway, little or no rum is carried on HM Ships these
>> days.
>>
>> I imagine that there's a bottle or two of Pusser's Rum in the wardroom
>> bar and the POs mess but apart from that there probably won't be much if
>> any.
>
> At 87.5 ml/man, to splice the main brace aboard a Type 45 (300-ish people)
> it's over 26 litres or about 24 forty-pounders every time it's done. Even
> if you buy it in cases of six bottles each, you could fit a combat load
> and maintenance load (4 days use) into less than a cubic metre.
>
> Cheers!
William Black
> So, in the Royal Navy, is the verdict that the captain of a ship cannot
> order Splice The Mainbrace?
'Cannot' almost certainly. he doesn't have the rum.
'May not' is another matter...
It would be a brave man who denied the right of a Royal Navy captain to
issue a legal order on his own ship...
On the other hand it's about £12 a bottle duty free so it would cost about
£420 to buy a half tot for 300 people and I can't see the Admiralty standing
the cost so he'd have to pay for it himself.
A 'Commander RN' earns about £65,000 a year plus allowances so it's probably
about half a week's wages after tax, which is a hell of gesture...
george
> So, in the Royal Navy, is the verdict that the captain of a ship cannot
> order Splice The Mainbrace?
>
Get thee to QR&AI where all is revealed