V-Sign
Egil
>
>
> Yes, Mary, there is a great deal on all this and Agincourt in the
> archives. You were just too lazy to look it up. So, you are quite
> wrong there. We understand, dear --- resting on your oars --- while
> others do the rowing.
Yes, Mary, damn you!--how DARE you ask a legitamate question about a
matter of trivia--you should either already be omnipotent on all matters
or make something up in the time-honored fashion! Bad, BaD, BAD woman!
Go to your room! And no more history discussions for you, young lady!
> Mary, get out there at the local school-crossing, or near a play yard
> and report back your empirical findings on this important question ---
> and quit resting on your oars. No, if a man is seen sneaking around
> watching small children and asking about their obscene gestures, he'll
> get arrested.
>
Hum...
> What if _you_ get arrested? Well, not to worry --- we'll spring you in
> a few days.
>
Humm...
> An Australian friend whom I queried on this matter tells me that the
> palm-back V-sign is symbolic of the forked penis of the kangaroo --- and
> is meant to be doubly insulting, with other obscene permutations which I
> shall pass over for the nonce --- but may return to later --- in an
> adult version.
>
Oh... kay...
>Copyright --- 1999 --- D. Spencer Hines --- All Rights Reserved
>[To Be Continued]
So to sum up, Mr. Hines will dazzle us farther with his knowledge
of lurking around school yards and kangaroo penises.
I'm frightened, people.
I mean, he threatened to talk at us about kangaroo penises in an adult
version. Am I alone in wondering if it'll be cross-posted to
alt.sex.beasties or some-such?
--Egil the Lurker (on newsgroups, not like icky Mr. Hines.)
D. Spencer Hines
but we need to be more circumspect and measured --- and not so randy ---
like, chilled out.
At my present location, it is quite early yet and the children are still
frolicking about and looking over my shoulder at the monitor. Many
folks do not yet have the new V-chips in their computers [including me]
to filter out the randy, the obscene, the pornographic and the
malicious, including the V-sign --- you know, "The Bad Stuff." <groak>
So, in this post I shall confine myself to "The Good Stuff" the
non-insulting version of the V-sign and Sir Winston's Finest Hour.
[N.B. Yes, I know he was not Sir Winston then, but he is now and
forevermore. Sheesh, what nit-pickers! --- DSH].
Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill [1874-1965] did not "invent" the "V
For Victory" sign, although many ignorant pogues, including not a few of
his fellow countrymen and women seem to think so.
We sometimes tend to forget that Winston was an American citizen. He
also had an American Mother, Jennie Jerome, did our Cousin Winston.
If Sir Winston did not invent the "V For Victory" sign who did?
A Belgian.
"A Belgian --- you're putting me on!"
A Belgian attorney, Victor De Lavelaye, perhaps inspired by his own
Christian name. And to be precise, which I always try to be, even when
addressing errant pogues, he invented it on 14 January 1941.
De Lavelaye was unhappy about the use of R.A.F. [Royal Air Force] as a
Belgian Resistance graffito. It was being scrawled on walls by the
underground in an attempt to insult the occupying Nazis. But,
representing as they did words in a foreign language, the letters were
inadequate, he felt. He wanted something simpler and more universally
understood.
He locked onto "V for Victory", because it worked in Flemish <vrijheid>,
French <victoire> and English <victory>.
Shortly after he made an initial broadcast, proposing the 'V', the
B.B.C. mounted a very successful "information" [no, 'propaganda' is what
one's enemies mount] campaign, employing the Morse code [invented by
Samuel F. B. Morse, Yale College, 1810] symbol for 'V' [di-di-di-dah]
(dot-dot-dot-dash).
The opening bars of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony were worked in as
well --- throwing one of the Germans best products, World-Class Music,
back in their faces.
Winston picked up the sign after that and used it publicly at every
opportunity.
Occasionally he screwed the pooch and got the sign wrong. There is
early film of him making the rude version of the V-sign to some of his
own troops, in effect telling them to "get stuffed" rather than spurring
them on to Victory. These chaps probably voted against him in the 1945
election.
[Winston is not known ever to have uttered the expressive exclamation
"Capital!" as he made the "V For Victory" sign as it was for "Victory"
and not for "Capital" and he was also warned by his advisors that if he
were to do so it would cost him many votes in the forthcoming election.
So, he did not --- although he was sorely tempted, some say. But, most
of those "some" are Colonel Blimps, so they can safely be ignored.]
There is intelligent speculation that someone took Winston aside and
gently explained the problem to him and that he then cleaned up his act.
Later film records all reportedly [I've not personally viewed all the
film taken of Winston Churchill during World War II, as I have a
life --- hence "reportedly"] show him performing the gesture palm
out. --- So, this is a quite plausible theory.
Whatever else may have transpired, the final form of the "V for Victory"
sign became fixed and distinct from its unsavory predecessor. Some
pogues think he was unaware of the rude form before it was pointed out
to him --- or just slipped --- as many of us do to this day, who are
unwitting, or insufficiently witting --- i.e., lazy and careless ---
like that pogue "Anthraxus."
The Nazis, in an attempted counter-move tried to initiate a "V For
Victoria" propaganda campaign. But, it was too late, the Allied V-sign
had become indelibly associated with the anti-Nazi movement and had
swept over Occupied Europe.
Never underestimate the power of a Belgian brain and a British
"information" apparatus --- particularly during wartime, with a Tory
calling the shots.
Copyright --- 1999 --- D. Spencer Hines --- All Rights Reserved
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
D. Spencer Hines --- "It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs',
humanity did evil for two thousand years, but honored good. This
contradiction was an honor to the human species, and formed the rift
whereby civilization slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs"
[The Treason of the Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
D. Spencer Hines
Right!
Your Grandmother is a smart Lady and she has a clever Grandson.
See the post I just released.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
D. Spencer Hines --- "It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs',
humanity did evil for two thousand years, but honored good. This
contradiction was an honor to the human species, and formed the rift
whereby civilization slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs"
[The Treason of the Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
Dave Page <dp...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:7smid5$kfl$1...@lure.pipex.net...
|
| D. Spencer Hines wrote in message
| <7smepv$144$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
| >D. Spencer Hines
| >
| >Lux et Veritas et Libertas
| >
| >Next:
| >
| >Winston's Finest Hour --- 'V' For Victory.
| >
|
| And having spoken to my grandmother on this matter, she can certainly
| remember the amusement it caused when he gave the V-sign with his hand
both
| ways around. She said it was sometimes interpreted as him telling
where the
| Germans et al could get off.
|
| Dave Page
Damon Agretto
> sign became fixed and distinct from its unsavory predecessor. Some
> pogues think he was unaware of the rude form before it was pointed out
> to him --- or just slipped --- as many of us do to this day, who are
> unwitting, or insufficiently witting --- i.e., lazy and careless ---
> like that pogue "Anthraxus."
Oh, Spence, you wound me with your superior knowledge and wisdom. Just can't
pass up an opportunity to insult, can you? Come on, Spence, you can do better
than that! I mean, really insult me! Use some creativity you learned in the
"play yard." Or perhaps you never had any creativity to begin with. Figures...
By the way, since you have the time to cut against me--I'm just too lazy and
careless to do it myself--why don't you answer my question?
> Copyright --- 1999 --- D. Spencer Hines --- All Rights Reserved
Yes Hines, make sure you copyright this stuff. I'm sure some scholar is going to
mine it for the nuggets of knowledge contained therein. You wouldn't want them
to plagiarize, now would you?
Damon.
--
____________________________________________________________________________________
Damon "Anthraxus" Agretto
"Si vis pacem, para bellum"
Small Scale Armor Modeling:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/1187/index.html
Now Building: Revell/Germany's Leopard A1A3
_____________________________________________________________________________________
D. Spencer Hines
Actually, it goes without saying, because it is quite obvious, but as
Dave Page has correctly pointed out, [or, more accurately, his sainted
Grandmother has pointed out], Winston may well have been "funning"
too --- by varying the form of the V-sign gesture to fit the specific
occasion.
Victory for the British Armed Forces on one occasion.
Sticking it to Hitler on another.
There is also the famous incident of Harvey Smith at the British Jumping
Derby at Hickstead, on 15 August 1971, to factor into these
deliberations.
This notorious incident proves that even the Brits seem sometimes to get
confused about the meaning of their own V-sign gesture.
Mary Fisher
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in
message news:7sm51v$kgq$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net...
> There are two forms of the V-sign, the insulting form and the
> non-insulting form --- the V for Victory form, so successfully
employed
> by Winston Churchill during World War II.
Not just employed - initiated, it's generally believed. In
Britain.
>
> I shall be discussing both.
I have a feeling you'll have an audience of one. You don't need
two fingers to count that but if you include yourself thee will
be two, face your palm any which way.
>
> Yes, Mary, there is a great deal on all this and Agincourt in
the
> archives. You were just too lazy to look it up. So, you are
quite
> wrong there. We understand, dear --- resting on your oars ---
while
> others do the rowing.
There is nothing on either in our local archives. I made an
appointment, requested a search and did my own ploughing through
as well. I did find some material from my first school, which
mentioned not only me but my parents, who both attended the same
school but at different times.
>
> The insulting version is the palm-back V-sign -- with the palm
facing
> back towards the gesturer.
>
> The V for Victory version is the palm-forward version, [surely
my gentle
> readers can figure out the differences --- Pace] but they are
often
> confused.
Not in Britain, they're not.
> Even Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher have confused
> them --- as well as millions of us colonial blokes.
Young man, I think you're talking through your - er - hat. If you
make statements like that should you not give us - that is me -
chapter and verse, dates, occasions, intentions etc.? It's what
we've become used to when you pontificate about Britain.
>
> But, I shall not confuse them --- rest assured.
It bothers me not a jot. If you're confused it's your problem,
not mine. It takes far more than your confusion to keep me awake.
It takes storm and tempest on such a scale as we rarely
experience in these sceptred isles.
>
> The palm-back version is not generally known as an obscenity
outside the
> British Isles.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That hat is well used! Or, as we say, what
rot! that's the polite version.
> One explanation is that it represents the horns of the
> cuckold, but there are many others, most of them placing the
gesture
> well before Agincourt in 1415.
That's the most interesting bit so far - do continue.
>
> The palm-back V-sign is reportedly the most favored of all
offensive
> gestures made by British children.
Who reports that? Newspapers? I have a page from a well known
American newspaper, New York Times I believe but too lazy to look
for it just now, which states that the first telephone bank in UK
is built 'in the shadow of a nuclear power station'. It's in
Leeds, we have no nuclear power stations this side of the Lake
District. There was a (decommissioned) coal fired power station
in the area at the time of writing. I have another 'report', a
first hand one, from the Boston Globe. The reporter's wife had
enjoyed a meal at our house and taken notes. The resulting copy
was so wrong as to be actionable, if it had mattered. Don't
believe 'reports', even those in American newspapers.
> Someone on the ground in Britain can
> verify that for us, with hard-core empirical data.
That someone would have to count the gestures of all children at
all times to have valid data. I'm not going to get on the ground
to be gestured at by children even for you. I keep away from
children, they're more dangerous than little old ladies.
>
> Mary, get out there at the local school-crossing, or near a
play yard
(we call them play grounds)
> and report back your empirical findings on this important
question ---
NO. It's not mediaeval.
>
> What if _you_ get arrested? Well, not to worry --- we'll
spring you in
> a few days.
They wouldn't dare arrest me - they're too scared of grey haired
old ladies. As are all men, feeble things.
>
> The palm-back V-sign has supplanted the cock-a-snook, which was
the
> previous long-time winner.
Who says? What empirical data supports that wild statement? And
we don't use hyphens in cock a snook, they are three separate
words. In Britain.
>
> An Australian friend ... <snip - off topic, not about British
insults>
> Finally, have all the Brits here lost the powers of speaking,
reading
> and writing?
The Brits where?
>
> Why is a mere colonial, an untutored American such as myself,
explaining
> a British gesture to a British woman?
You're not. Not to my satisfaction anyway :-)
>
> Cor blimey!
?
>
> Copyright --- 1999 --- D. Spencer Hines --- All Rights Reserved
>
> [To Be Continued]
Dave Page
>
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>
>Winston's Finest Hour --- 'V' For Victory.
>
And having spoken to my grandmother on this matter, she can certainly
remember the amusement it caused when he gave the V-sign with his hand both
ways around. She said it was sometimes interpreted as him telling where the
Germans et al could get off.
Dave Page
>Educating these Brits about their own History is a thankless job, but
>someone has to do it.
>
>Certainly their rinky-dink Labour Government will never do it.
>
>After all, History is the "Dead Hand of the Past" --- to a dedicated
>socialist.
>
>"All good things to those who wait." --- Dr. Hannibal Lecter [Anthony
>Hopkins] to Agent Clarice Starling [Jodie Foster] in "The Silence of the
>Lambs" [1991]
>
>Beware the forked penis of the kangaroo.
>
>Most dangerous.
>
>Only the Australians seem to be able to cope with it --- but it has
>nothing to do with Agincourt or archers.
>--
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>D. Spencer Hines --- "It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs',
>humanity did evil for two thousand years, but honored good. This
>contradiction was an honor to the human species, and formed the rift
>whereby civilization slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs"
>[The Treason of the Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
>
>Mary Fisher <Ma...@38smv.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:7smbc8$ck7$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Jessica Jahiel
Organization: Prairienet
Distribution:
D. Spencer Hines (D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu) wrote:
:
: There is also the famous incident of Harvey Smith at the British Jumping
: Derby at Hickstead, on 15 August 1971, to factor into these
: deliberations.
:
: This notorious incident proves that even the Brits seem sometimes to get
: confused about the meaning of their own V-sign gesture.
I believe that in this instance the gesture was intended as it was
presented, with utter sincerity. The world of show-jumping is neither
peaceful nor apolitical. ;-)
Jessica
--
jja...@prairienet.org | Jessica Jahiel, Ph.D.
Voice: (217) 359-9880 | * Author * Clinician * Lecturer *
http://www.prairienet.org/jjahiel/ | Holistic Horsemanship (R)
Emphasis on communication between horse and rider.
=========================================================================
Author: RIDING FOR THE REST OF US: A Practical Guide for Adult Riders
THE HORSEBACK ALMANAC (introduction to English riding, ages 8-12)
THE PARENT'S GUIDE TO HORSEBACK RIDING
=========================================================================
HORSE-SENSE is my free weekly electronic Q&A newsletter covering all
aspects of horses, horsemanship, riding, and training. Subscription
information and archives: http://www.prairienet.org/horse-sense/
Mary Fisher
> There is also the famous incident of Harvey Smith at the
British Jumping
> Derby at Hickstead, on 15 August 1971, to factor into these
> deliberations.
>
> This notorious incident proves that even the Brits seem
sometimes to get
> confused about the meaning of their own V-sign gesture.
Harvey was never confused about what he meant, even if colonials
needed it spelling out for them.
I've just been reminded that Americans can't understand our
complex sense of humour, so I shall try not to be too hard on you
:-)
Mary the Chandler
Mary Fisher
>
> So, in this post I shall confine myself to "The Good Stuff" the
> non-insulting version of the V-sign and Sir Winston's Finest
Hour.
> [N.B. Yes, I know he was not Sir Winston then, but he is now
and
> forevermore. Sheesh, what nit-pickers! --- DSH].
No he isn't. He's dead.
>
> Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill [1874-1965] did not "invent"
the "V
> For Victory" sign, although many ignorant pogues, including not
a few of
> his fellow countrymen and women seem to think so.
What is a pogue?
>
> A Belgian attorney, Victor De Lavelaye, perhaps inspired by his
own
> Christian name. And to be precise, which I always try to be,
even when
> addressing errant pogues, he invented it on 14 January 1941.
What is a pogue?
>
> De Lavelaye was unhappy about the use of R.A.F. [Royal Air
Force] as a
> Belgian Resistance graffito. It was being scrawled on walls by
the
> underground in an attempt to insult the occupying Nazis. But,
> representing as they did words in a foreign language, the
letters were
> inadequate, he felt. He wanted something simpler and more
universally
> understood.
>
> He locked onto "V for Victory", because it worked in Flemish
<vrijheid>,
That's _really_ universal.
>
>
> Occasionally he screwed the pooch
?
> There is intelligent speculation that someone took Winston
aside and
> gently explained the problem to him and that he then cleaned up
his act.
> Later film records all reportedly [I've not personally viewed
all the
> film taken of Winston Churchill during World War II, as I have
a
> life --- hence "reportedly"] show him performing the gesture
palm
> out. --- So, this is a quite plausible theory.
Inadequate evidence.
>
> Whatever else may have transpired, the final form of the "V for
Victory"
> sign became fixed and distinct from its unsavory predecessor.
Some
> pogues think he was unaware of the rude form before it was
pointed out
> to him --- or just slipped --- as many of us do to this day,
who are
> unwitting, or insufficiently witting --- i.e., lazy and
careless ---
> like that pogue "Anthraxus."
What is a pogue?
If I ask often enough someone will hear ...
Mary the Chandler
... or I could start another thread ...
Mary Fisher
Egil <" "@Lurking.Land> wrote in message
news:37EED9...@Lurking.Land...
> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> >
> >
> > Yes, Mary, there is a great deal on all this and Agincourt in
the
> > archives. You were just too lazy to look it up. So, you are
quite
> > wrong there. We understand, dear --- resting on your
oars --- while
> > others do the rowing.
>
about a
> matter of trivia--you should either already be omnipotent on
all matters
> or make something up in the time-honored fashion! Bad, BaD, BAD
woman!
> Go to your room! And no more history discussions for you, young
lady!
>
>
play yard
question ---
around
> > watching small children and asking about their obscene
gestures, he'll
> > get arrested.
> >
>
> Hum...
>
spring you in
> > a few days.
> >
>
>
> > An Australian friend whom I queried on this matter tells me
that the
kangaroo --- and
> > is meant to be doubly insulting, with other obscene
permutations which I
> > shall pass over for the nonce --- but may return to later ---
in an
> > adult version.
> >
>
> Oh... kay...
>
Reserved
>
> >[To Be Continued]
>
knowledge
> of lurking around school yards and kangaroo penises.
> I'm frightened, people.
> I mean, he threatened to talk at us about kangaroo penises in
an adult
> version. Am I alone in wondering if it'll be cross-posted to
> alt.sex.beasties or some-such?
>
> --Egil the Lurker (on newsgroups, not like icky Mr. Hines.)
... can I come out yet?
Bad Mary
Olwyn Mawr
Mary Fisher wrote in message <7soj7o$7r0$2...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
[snipped somewhat]
>What is a pogue?
>
>If I ask often enough someone will hear ...
>
>Mary the Chandler
>... or I could start another thread ...
Have you got me killfiled then?
P.S. There is another "pogue", meaning a wallet or container, but I don't
think that has anything at all do do with DSH's usage. Of course, if
there's a Hawaiian word "pogue" too, then all bets are off.
Mary Fisher
Olwyn Mawr <ol...@trochos.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7soo4p$j6n$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Mary Fisher wrote in message
<7soj7o$7r0$2...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
> [snipped somewhat]
> >What is a pogue?
>
Oh no, not you.
But there must be another definition, a term of abuse, a colonial
one, surely? The references to pogues in earlier postings
couldn't be about kisses, could they?
I was hoping for an explanation from the user, whoever it was.
Spencer, that's the name.
>
> P.S. There is another "pogue", meaning a wallet or container,
but I don't
> think that has anything at all do do with DSH's usage. Of
course, if
> there's a Hawaiian word "pogue" too, then all bets are off.
You could start a new book, on whether there is or not. Odds are
simple.
Mary the Chandler
>
>
Andrew Reeves
"Pogue," is, in U.S. military parlance, a derogatory term used to indicate one
who is not directly involved in war-fighting, i.e., one who works in the
company office ("office pogue"), or is simply in a Military Occupational
Specialty other than infantry and/or combat arms. For example, an infantryman
wishing to insult a mechanic, bulk fuel specialist, etc. would call him a
"pogue." It may have, at one time, been used simply as a general insult,
though by the mid-90's it had taken on this particular meaning.
I have heard two explanations for the derivation of this word:
1) Derived from a Tagalog word for "prostitute," which also led to the term
"poagie bait," which refers to candy bars, soda, ice cream, etc.
2) Derived from the acronym POG (Person Other than Grunt).
I doubt the latter explanation, simply because popular entymology is frequently
wrong when concerned with acronyms, e.g. that favorite word that is supposed to
have come from "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge," "Fornication Under Command of
the King," etc. None of these are correct, the word in question being derived
from (someone correct me if I'm wrong) an ancient Germanic word, "fecken,"
meaning "to pierce."
That's all from here, back to lurking.
Andrew Reeves
Former Office Pogue
Eric P. Fein
Mary Fisher wrote:
> I've just been reminded that Americans can't understand our
> complex sense of humour, so I shall try not to be too hard on you
> :-)
Complex? Don't know if I'd call farce complex...:)
Hmmmm...methinks it might be time to repost some thoughts from _1066 And
All That_ again. It's getting much, much too serious around here.
Oh, and by the way, I think you mean "humor". <g>
eric
D. Spencer Hines
"Etymology" --- so he did a straddle --- a "Waspian Waffle" --- as it
were.
Well, it's just one more thing he's clueless about.
Seriously, have you ever seen a college professor this incompetent?
Let's hear the stories.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:7sp73r$ln4$2...@news.panix.com...
| Wait! Don't go yet. Can pogues call other pogues pogues?
| Inquiring, but suspicious minds want to know.
|
| ----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
|
D. Spencer Hines
He should have picked up on it and he did not --- so he carries the
blame as well.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
Andrew Reeves <schiz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990927224539...@ng-fh1.aol.com...
| Ahem. Excuse me, Hines. It was *I* who mis-spelt "entomology."
See my other post.
Your ignorance is over the top.
|
| Andrew
Robert Sulentic
Andrew Reeves wrote in message
<19990927195056...@ng-cf1.aol.com>...
>Former Office Pogue
Possible variation:
I was always given to understand that the word poagie was from Hangul, and
was a coarse term for a woman's vagina. as in the insult (this is spelled
phonetically) "Imi jimi peck poagie da!" which supposedly translates to
"Your mother has a bald pussy!" (The insult here being that your mother is a
prostitute). The 'g' by the way, is soft but I have heard the term poagie
bait used with a hard 'g'. It does not take much to imagine it being
shortened to pogue. (with the hard 'g'.)
Aren't words fun?
RNS
(who was never a pogue apparently, because I was in the infantry.)
D. Spencer Hines
"Too many meanings, Herr Mozart. Entirely too many meanings. Just take
a few out."
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
Andrew Reeves <schiz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990927235342...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
| >Possible variation:
| >
| >I was always given to understand that the word poagie was from
Hangul, and
| >was a coarse term for a woman's vagina. as in the insult (this is
spelled
| >phonetically) "Imi jimi peck poagie da!" which supposedly translates
to
|
| "Imi shimi paek poji da!" is correct, I believe. Why is it that every
American
| serviceman who's been to Korea remembers that phrase?
|
| >"Your mother has a bald pussy!" (The insult here being that your
mother is a
| >prostitute). The 'g' by the way, is soft but I have heard the term
poagie
| >bait used with a hard 'g'. It does not take much to imagine it being
| >shortened to pogue. (with the hard 'g'.)
| >
| I wonder. In fact, I'm shocked that I'd never thought of that. I
haven't even
| thought of "poji" being Romanized as "poagie" and then being mis-read
as
| "poagie" with a hard "g". That does sound far more likely, though.
Rob Churchill
a 'Spencerism'. noun. cf 'pogue','neologism'.
;-) Rob.
Brian M. Scott
<Ma...@38smv.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
[DSH:]
>> He locked onto "V for Victory", because it worked in Flemish
><vrijheid>,
>That's _really_ universal.
Pretty silly, too, since <vrijheid> is 'freedom', not 'victory'.
Brian M. Scott
Paul J Gans
>>What is a pogue?
>"Pogue," is, in U.S. military parlance, a derogatory term used to indicate one
>who is not directly involved in war-fighting, i.e., one who works in the
>company office ("office pogue"), or is simply in a Military Occupational
>Specialty other than infantry and/or combat arms. For example, an infantryman
>wishing to insult a mechanic, bulk fuel specialist, etc. would call him a
>"pogue." It may have, at one time, been used simply as a general insult,
>though by the mid-90's it had taken on this particular meaning.
>I have heard two explanations for the derivation of this word:
>1) Derived from a Tagalog word for "prostitute," which also led to the term
>"poagie bait," which refers to candy bars, soda, ice cream, etc.
>2) Derived from the acronym POG (Person Other than Grunt).
>I doubt the latter explanation, simply because popular entymology is frequently
>wrong when concerned with acronyms, e.g. that favorite word that is supposed to
>have come from "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge," "Fornication Under Command of
>the King," etc. None of these are correct, the word in question being derived
>from (someone correct me if I'm wrong) an ancient Germanic word, "fecken,"
>meaning "to pierce."
>That's all from here, back to lurking.
Wait! Don't go yet. Can pogues call other pogues pogues?
Brian M. Scott
<Ma...@38smv.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>But there must be another definition, a term of abuse, a colonial
>one, surely? The references to pogues in earlier postings
>couldn't be about kisses, could they?
I doubt that you'll get an explanation from DSH; he tends not to be
very forthcoming about his idiosyncrasies. I haven't been able to
track down a reference to any usage similar to his. I'd dismiss it as
a personal quirk on his part were it not that I've a faint
recollection of perhaps having heard the word used in this fashion
when I was in the army almost 30 years ago.
Brian M. Scott
Andrew Reeves
>Inquiring, but suspicious minds want to know.
Yes, but a qualified yes. For example, if I am in a communications unit, I am
not a grunt, and therefore a pogue. However, as a wireman, etc., I will still
be going to the field, functioning in a tactical environment, getting sweaty,
and risking my life in the event of war. I can therefore call an individual
who works in an air conditioned office, facing nothing more inconvenient than a
lack of paperclips a pogue.
Andrew
Andrew Reeves
Andrew
Andrew Reeves
CG Luxford
On 27 Sep 1999, Andrew Reeves wrote:
> I have heard two explanations for the derivation of this word:
>
> 1) Derived from a Tagalog word for "prostitute," which also led to the term
> "poagie bait," which refers to candy bars, soda, ice cream, etc.
>
> 2) Derived from the acronym POG (Person Other than Grunt).
>
And "Grunt" is US Military slang for...?
Chris,
CG Luxford
On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Eric P. Fein wrote:
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>
> > I've just been reminded that Americans can't understand our
> > complex sense of humour, so I shall try not to be too hard on you
> > :-)
>
> Complex? Don't know if I'd call farce complex...:)
>
> Hmmmm...methinks it might be time to repost some thoughts from _1066 And
> All That_ again. It's getting much, much too serious around here.
>
Quite agree, quite agree.
Chris,
Brian M. Scott
One of the PBI.
Brian M. Scott
CG Luxford
context.
We call them squaddies in England.
Chris,
Mary Fisher
Jonathan W Hendry <jhe...@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote in message
news:1999092723...@shrike.depaul.edu...> I could be wrong, but I think it means 'ass'.
>
> I think I read somewhere that the band 'The Pogues' were
> originally named 'Pogue Mahone', which means 'kiss my ass'.
>
> - Jon
A donkey?
What's wrong with donkeys? Except that they can't use a keyboard
so couldn't contribute to this or any ng. So it's either a misuse
of the word or you're wrong. :-)
Mary the Chandler
Mary Fisher
This is very interesting, thank you.
Are you the Andrew Reeves I know? From Cornwall?
I can't believe that you are except that there's a possible
hidden clue in your spelling, a Joycian hint. Entymology vs
etymology vs entomology. If you're not 'my' Andrew please accept
my apologies, I'm not picking you up on spelling. If you are, Hi,
I know I owe you one! I'll be in touch if only about swaying bees
again.
Mary the Chandler
> >What is a pogue?
>
> "Pogue," is, in U.S. military parlance, a derogatory term used
to indicate one
> who is not directly involved in war-fighting, i.e., one who
works in the
> company office ("office pogue"), or is simply in a Military
Occupational
> Specialty other than infantry and/or combat arms. For example,
an infantryman
> wishing to insult a mechanic, bulk fuel specialist, etc. would
call him a
> "pogue." It may have, at one time, been used simply as a
general insult,
> though by the mid-90's it had taken on this particular meaning.
>
> I have heard two explanations for the derivation of this word:
>
> 1) Derived from a Tagalog word for "prostitute," which also
led to the term
> "poagie bait," which refers to candy bars, soda, ice cream,
etc.
>
> 2) Derived from the acronym POG (Person Other than Grunt).
>
> I doubt the latter explanation, simply because popular
entymology is frequently
> wrong when concerned with acronyms, e.g. that favorite word
that is supposed to
> have come from "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge," "Fornication
Under Command of
> the King," etc. None of these are correct, the word in
question being derived
> from (someone correct me if I'm wrong) an ancient Germanic
word, "fecken,"
> meaning "to pierce."
>
> That's all from here, back to lurking.
>
Eric P. Fein
CG Luxford wrote:
>
> On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Eric P. Fein wrote:
> > Mary Fisher wrote:
> >
> > > I've just been reminded that Americans can't understand our
> > > complex sense of humour, so I shall try not to be too hard on you
> > > :-)
> >
> > Complex? Don't know if I'd call farce complex...:)
> >
> Depends on the farce.
Ahh, fair enough. Blame my irritation with farce on "Three's Company",
if you will.
> > Hmmmm...methinks it might be time to repost some thoughts from _1066 And
> > All That_ again. It's getting much, much too serious around here.
> >
> Quite agree, quite agree.
Well, then, I'm on it....:)
eric
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Ma...@38smv.freeserve.co.uk (Mary Fisher) wrote:
>
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhe...@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote in
>message
> news:1999092723...@shrike.depaul.edu...
> > In article <7soj7o$7r0$2...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> you wrote:
> >
> >
> > > What is a pogue?
> >
> > I could be wrong, but I think it means 'ass'.
> >
> > I think I read somewhere that the band 'The Pogues' were
> > originally named 'Pogue Mahone', which means 'kiss my
>ass'.
> >
> > - Jon
>
> A donkey?
>
> What's wrong with donkeys? Except that they can't use a
>keyboard so couldn't contribute to this or any ng.
[...]
Oh, would that that were true!
D. Spencer Hines
You seem to have the strange idea, dear, that your only responsibility
here on SHM is to ask questions --- and others must answer them, to your
satisfaction.
Where did you ever happen to get such an idea?
You make no substantive posts of your own, dear.
I provided you with a good deal of information on the V-sign, both
variants, and was willing to provide you with more.
But, you don't even have the common courtesy to thank me, dear. <g>
So, I've closed out that thread. There was a great deal more to report,
but I don't talk to blank walls.
All Best Wishes,
Your Friend,
Spencer
Mary Fisher
> Seriously, have you ever seen a college professor this
incompetent?
No stories from this end, we don't have professors in colleges.
Mary the Chandler
Mary Fisher
Eric P. Fein <waka-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:37F00E20...@worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>
> > I've just been reminded that Americans can't understand our
> > complex sense of humour, so I shall try not to be too hard on
you
> > :-)
>
> Complex? Don't know if I'd call farce complex...:)
The fact that you seem to think that farce is the only English
humour proves my point.
>
> Hmmmm...methinks it might be time to repost some thoughts from
_1066 And
> All That_ again. It's getting much, much too serious around
here.
Me too, me too.
>
> Oh, and by the way, I think you mean "humor". <g>
No, I meant "humour".
Mary the Chandler
Eric P. Fein
Mary Fisher wrote:
>
> Eric P. Fein <waka-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>
> > Complex? Don't know if I'd call farce complex...:)
>
> The fact that you seem to think that farce is the only English
> humour proves my point.
:) I wonder if the same rule is applicable in reverse. ('twas just a
joke, madame! :)
> > Hmmmm...methinks it might be time to repost some thoughts from
> _1066 And
> > All That_ again. It's getting much, much too serious around
> here.
>
> Me too, me too.
Another for the 'yay' column. Hmmmm.
> > Oh, and by the way, I think you mean "humor". <g>
>
> No, I meant "humour".
Actually, I meant "Saarbrucken", but what's it matter, really?
Not a wit. :)
Feeling particularly twisted these last few days (not to mention
coffee-less....eeek!),
eric
Robert Sulentic
Andrew Reeves wrote in message
>>Possible variation:
>>
>>I was always given to understand that the word poagie was from Hangul, and
>>was a coarse term for a woman's vagina. as in the insult (this is spelled
>>phonetically) "Imi jimi peck poagie da!" which supposedly translates to
>
>"Imi shimi paek poji da!" is correct, I believe. Why is it that every
American
>serviceman who's been to Korea remembers that phrase?
You are probably right. As to why everybody remembers it, I am not sure.
Perhaps it is like the other phrase everyone remembers: "short-time"
Heh. And joy of joys, One can get OB beer where I am at. I still cannot
someone thought *that* was worth importing.
RNS
>
>>"Your mother has a bald pussy!" (The insult here being that your mother is
a
>>prostitute). The 'g' by the way, is soft but I have heard the term poagie
>>bait used with a hard 'g'. It does not take much to imagine it being
>>shortened to pogue. (with the hard 'g'.)
>>
>I wonder. In fact, I'm shocked that I'd never thought of that. I haven't
even
>thought of "poji" being Romanized as "poagie" and then being mis-read as
>"poagie" with a hard "g". That does sound far more likely, though.
I had the rather singular experience of getting detailed to clear out the
attic of the Division HQ Building on Ft Lewis when stationed there. What I
found very interesting. If dates in the grafitti on the rafters was to be
believed, soldiers had been leaving little calling cards from as early as
1935. Only after the Korean war, did I see the word pogey and poagie used,
and of course, I had to leave my own note to future G.I.'s.
RNS
CG Luxford
On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Eric P. Fein wrote:
> CG Luxford wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Eric P. Fein wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've just been reminded that Americans can't understand our
> > > > complex sense of humour, so I shall try not to be too hard on you
> > > > :-)
> > >
> > >
>
> Ahh, fair enough. Blame my irritation with farce on "Three's Company",
> if you will.
>
play.
> > > Hmmmm...methinks it might be time to repost some thoughts from _1066 And
> > > All That_ again. It's getting much, much too serious around here.
> > >
> > Quite agree, quite agree.
>
> Well, then, I'm on it....:)
>
Go for it Eric. And to think there were people who thought you should
be removed from the papacy.
Chris,
Eric P. Fein
CG Luxford wrote:
>
> On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Eric P. Fein wrote:
> > Ahh, fair enough. Blame my irritation with farce on "Three's Company",
> > if you will.
> >
> OK. Though I have to admit to not being familiar with that particular
> play.
Oh, it's not a play...not anything near that classy or intellectual. A
cheesy 70's sit-com which, though it had *some* moments, was by and
large a half hour of crap.
> Go for it Eric. And to think there were people who thought you should
> be removed from the papacy.
Yeah, really! Now where'd I put that list of extra
commandments...hmmmm...
eric
Dick Wisan
>
[snip]
>I had the rather singular experience of getting detailed to clear out the
>attic of the Division HQ Building on Ft Lewis when stationed there. What I
>found very interesting. If dates in the grafitti on the rafters was to be
>believed, soldiers had been leaving little calling cards from as early as
>1935. Only after the Korean war, did I see the word pogey and poagie used,
>and of course, I had to leave my own note to future G.I.'s.
In "The Deep Six", Martin Dibner has a character use "pogey bait" &
"damned pogue". He uses it with the implication of homosexuality, and
he makes it sound like an old Navy phrase. The book is set in WWII,
but the copyright is 1953, so it doesn't prove anything.
--
R. N. (Dick) Wisan - Email: wis...@catskill.net
- Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A.
- Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax.
John Wilson
Eric P. Fein wrote in message <37F22B94...@worldnet.att.net>...
>
>
>CG Luxford wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Eric P. Fein wrote:
>> > Ahh, fair enough. Blame my irritation with farce on "Three's Company",
>> > if you will.
>> >
>> OK. Though I have to admit to not being familiar with that particular
>> play.
>
>Oh, it's not a play...not anything near that classy or intellectual. A
>cheesy 70's sit-com which, though it had *some* moments, was by and
>large a half hour of crap.
>
roommates, so he had to pretend to be gay to satisfy the landlord. Wow,
all sorts of opportunities for improbable misunderstandings and double
entendres. Exercise in believing because it was impossible. One
realistic feature, though, was that the landlord's wife complained about not
getting enough - I always liked those bits.
Cheers
JGW
Sharon L. Krossa
> >What is a pogue?
>
> "Pogue," is, in U.S. military parlance, a derogatory term used to indicate one
> who is not directly involved in war-fighting, i.e., one who works in the
> company office ("office pogue"), or is simply in a Military Occupational
> Specialty other than infantry and/or combat arms. For example, an infantryman
> wishing to insult a mechanic, bulk fuel specialist, etc. would call him a
> "pogue." It may have, at one time, been used simply as a general insult,
> though by the mid-90's it had taken on this particular meaning.
>
> I have heard two explanations for the derivation of this word:
>
> 1) Derived from a Tagalog word for "prostitute," which also led to the term
> "poagie bait," which refers to candy bars, soda, ice cream, etc.
In 1918?
-----from the OED-----
pogey bait ("pEUgI beIt). U.S. slang. Also poggy, pogie, poguey bait.
[perh. f. pogy + bait sb.1] Candy, sweets. (See also quot. 1970.)
1918 L. E. Ruggles Navy Explained 88 While going through the war zone,
the pockets are used for ciggies and poggy bait.
1929 Papers Mich. Acad. Sci., Arts & Lett. X. 315 Poggy bait, the
sailor's designation for sweets.
1935 A. J. Pollock Underworld Speaks 90/1 Pogey bait, candy.
1953 M. Dibner Deep Six xv. 154 A candy bar's called poguey-bait.
1970 Esquire Nov. 116 Pogie bait is any snack that is not prepared..in a
government mess-hall.
-----end quote-----
Sharon
--
Sharon L. Krossa, kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu
Medieval Scotland: http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names is
Arval's Medieval Naming Guides - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Mary Fisher
>
> Oh, it's not a play...not anything near that classy or
intellectual. A
> cheesy 70's sit-com which, though it had *some* moments, was by
and
> large a half hour of crap.
I do apologise, I made an assumption. Unforgiveable on this ng!
In my day a farce was something Rixian on stage, I'm sure you'll
forgive me.
If the cheesy 70's sit-com was on television I still wouldn't
have seen it though. But please don't explain, put your efforts
into reproducing S & Y for the non cognoscenti.
My first experience of it was when the staff at my grammar school
put it on as their annual play. What a marvellous introduction to
history for an 11 year old! Since then I bought the book (there's
an illustrated one now which I eschew because they'd never be
able to reproduce Miss Dodd as John) and it sits in That Place
where one always reaches for the written word to improve the
hour - or in my case minute.
Mary the Chandler
... from another post:
:) I wonder if the same rule is applicable in reverse. ('twas
just a
joke, madame! :)
I'd probably lol if I understood it! :-)
> > Oh, and by the way, I think you mean "humor". <g>
>
> No, I meant "humour".
Actually, I meant "Saarbrucken", but what's it matter, really?
Not a wit. :)
Eh?
Feeling particularly twisted these last few days (not to mention
coffee-less....eeek!),
Sorry about that. Can't help though,
Mary the Chandler
Mary Fisher
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in
message news:7src1r$ini$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
Thank you kindly, sir, she said.
('dear' - it always works! <VBG> Born and bred in a briar patch,
Brer Fox - or Wolf if you prefer)
Mary the Chandler
p.s. from what I've read there seem to be quite a few blank walls
around, it may be that you're ONLY talking to me.
p.p.s. and I'd still like to know what a schlockmeister (or
whatever it was) is. You don't need to tell me, It's not
important, I shan't lose sleep over it.
Opus (:>
> cheesy 70's sit-com which, though it had *some* moments, was by and
> large a half hour of crap.
>
British sit-com with the same situation. Sorry but I can't remember the
name of it.
--
Opus (:>
"I wish the stage were as high and narrow as a tightrope so that only
the most highly trained would dare to venture out upon it." --Goethe
http://www.carla.coble.com -Acting site
http://members.home.net/coble/OpusGraphics -Original graphics
http://scoobydoo.acmecity.com/witchdoctor/345 -Alt.Acting Newsgroup
Gallery
Eric P. Fein
Mary Fisher wrote:
> I do apologise, I made an assumption. Unforgiveable on this ng!
> In my day a farce was something Rixian on stage, I'm sure you'll
> forgive me.
Naturally. Assumptions can be Good Things, you know. :)
> If the cheesy 70's sit-com was on television I still wouldn't
> have seen it though. But please don't explain, put your efforts
> into reproducing S & Y for the non cognoscenti.
Agreed!! Test Paper I coming soon. :)
> My first experience of it was when the staff at my grammar school
> put it on as their annual play. What a marvellous introduction to
> history for an 11 year old!
As a play?!?! Now *that* is a great idea!
How'd they pull it off -- e.g. how was the text converted into a play?
> Since then I bought the book (there's
> an illustrated one now which I eschew because they'd never be
> able to reproduce Miss Dodd as John) and it sits in That Place
> where one always reaches for the written word to improve the
> hour - or in my case minute.
Exactly! It rests by my desk at all times. I have to say though, that
I'm rather fond of the illustrations -- especially the one of William
the Conqueror eating a handfull of sand. :)
> > > Oh, and by the way, I think you mean "humor". <g>
> >
> > No, I meant "humour".
>
> Actually, I meant "Saarbrucken", but what's it matter, really?
>
> Not a wit. :)
>
> Eh?
Chalk it up to the lack of coffee. I tend to get a little, er,
"strange" when my mornings are begun sans caffeine. :)
Fully caffeinated today,
eric
Eric P. Fein
"Opus (:>" wrote:
>
> > Oh, it's not a play...not anything near that classy or intellectual. A
> > cheesy 70's sit-com which, though it had *some* moments, was by and
> > large a half hour of crap.
> >
> Ooh, hate to tell you dear, but it was based on an already existing
> British sit-com with the same situation. Sorry but I can't remember the
> name of it.
Ahh, no surprise here. The idea seems pretty 'standard'.
The *real* question about British sit-coms, though, is whatever happened
to _The Young Ones_? :)
eric
Opus (:>
>
things, none of which it actually means.
Farce is not about reality, it's about speed and mechanics. That's why
there are no psychologically dense characters in farce. Farce is
Over-the-top people in normal
situations. Situation Comedy is real people in over-the-top
situations. Then, the comedy comes out of the character's unhealthy
obsession over small, unimportant things.
So as far as that goes, yes John, you're right; it was very broad farce.
Opus (:>
> to _The Young Ones_? :)
>
OLD on us... I catch a re-run every now and then on Comedy Central.
Eric P. Fein
"Opus (:>" wrote:
>
> > The *real* question about British sit-coms, though, is whatever happened
> > to _The Young Ones_? :)
> >
> OH YES......... Now THAT was funny. I suppose they had to go and get
> OLD on us... I catch a re-run every now and then on Comedy Central.
You're joking!?!?! I've *never* seen The Young Ones on CC -- in fact,
I've rarely seen anything good on CC (though they did play _Better Off
Dead_ last night <g>).
I even went as Neil for halloween once in college. :)
eric
Opus (:>
just have to catch it at odd syndication times.
"Eric P. Fein" wrote:
--
Eric P. Fein
"Opus (:>" wrote:
>
> About a year to six months ago, it was on right after Kids in the Hall. Now I
> just have to catch it at odd syndication times.
Nuts! Wish I known this *then*! :)
Well, if you see/hear anything, do let me know.
eric
Eric P. Fein
Mary Fisher wrote:
>
> Eric P. Fein <waka-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > Agreed!! Test Paper I coming soon. :)
>
> Uutter failure at my first attempt, half a century ago, because I
> attempted to write on both sides of the paper at once.
Ahhh, tricky, tricky. The *real* question, though, is whether or not
you were able to picture John of Gaunt as an emaciated grandee. :)
> > As a play?!?! Now *that* is a great idea!
> > How'd they pull it off -- e.g. how was the text converted into
> a play?
>
> I don't know, one didn't ask questions in those days. Teachers in
> those days were very clever. And the authors were still alive so
> they must have done it with permission and paid royalties.
:) Undoubtedly.
> Perhaps somewhere in the archives there's a script for it,
> specially written for all girls' school staff. Another time they
> did Dido. All I know is that it worked for me and everyone else,
> it was very, very funny. When I found the book I was thrilled.
Indeed! I think it's a wonderful idea...the book lends itself to all
manner of fun theatrical interpretations. And I imagine that it would
still 'work' quite well today!
> > I have to say though, that
> > I'm rather fond of the illustrations -- especially the one of
> William
> > the Conqueror eating a handfull of sand. :)
>
> Oh of course - I apologise again. I'd forgotten about the
> original drawings. I meant shiny, coloured, new illustrations.
Argh. Is it the new edition being sold by Amazon/B&N? I haven't seen
that one...the one I found (by blind luck, too) is bare-bones, with the
old illustrations by John Reynolds. They're fantastic!
> The originals looked exactly like my teachers!
Ahahahaha!! Even the one of the "Spanish Mane"? :) (It's a man in good
Elizabethan garb with a positively monstrous head of hair and an
incredibly long beard...)
> > > Actually, I meant "Saarbrucken", but what's it matter,
> really?
>
> I daren't ask what that means, especially if it doesn't matter.
> I've never heard it used, but I'm English. Sounds like a place.
Correct. A town in Germany, southwest of Frankfurt and right on the
French border. Don't ask why I know of the town, and REALLY don't ask
what put it into my mind at that exact moment. :P
> > I even went as Neil for halloween once in college. :)
>
> Didn't everybody?
Actually, no one had a clue of who I was supposed to be. I had to give
explanations to all my friends...lengthy explanations...:(
> I once looked exactly like Alexei Sayle
...and now you've lost *me*. An actor on the show, I guess? (I haven't
seen them in a long, long time, so I've no idea who was in it)
eric
Mary Fisher
>
>
>
> Assumptions can be Good Things, you know. :)
I know that. You know that. Lots of people know that. Not
everyone knows that.
>
> > ... put your efforts
> > into reproducing S & Y for the non cognoscenti.
>
> Agreed!! Test Paper I coming soon. :)
Uutter failure at my first attempt, half a century ago, because I
attempted to write on both sides of the paper at once.
>
> > My first experience of it was when the staff at my grammar
school
> > put it on as their annual play. What a marvellous
introduction to
> > history for an 11 year old!
>
> As a play?!?! Now *that* is a great idea!
> How'd they pull it off -- e.g. how was the text converted into
a play?
I don't know, one didn't ask questions in those days. Teachers in
those days were very clever. And the authors were still alive so
they must have done it with permission and paid royalties.
Perhaps somewhere in the archives there's a script for it,
specially written for all girls' school staff. Another time they
did Dido. All I know is that it worked for me and everyone else,
it was very, very funny. When I found the book I was thrilled.
>
> > (there's
> > an illustrated one now which I eschew because they'd never be
> > able to reproduce Miss Dodd as John) and it sits in That
Place
> > where one always reaches for the written word to improve the
> > hour - or in my case minute.
>
> Exactly! It rests by my desk at all times.
;-)
> I have to say though, that
> I'm rather fond of the illustrations -- especially the one of
William
> the Conqueror eating a handfull of sand. :)
Oh of course - I apologise again. I'd forgotten about the
original drawings. I meant shiny, coloured, new illustrations.
The originals looked exactly like my teachers!
>
> > > > Oh, and by the way, I think you mean "humor". <g>
> > >
> > > No, I meant "humour".
> >
> > Actually, I meant "Saarbrucken", but what's it matter,
really?
I daren't ask what that means, especially if it doesn't matter.
I've never heard it used, but I'm English. Sounds like a place.
> >
Thanks for your explanation. I've given up on the definition of
farce.
Mary the Chandler
I even went as Neil for halloween once in college. :)
Didn't everybody?
I once looked exactly like Alexei Sayle
Mary
Mike Dana
> > I have heard two explanations for the derivation of this word:
> >
> > 1) Derived from a Tagalog word for "prostitute," which also led to the term
> > "poagie bait," which refers to candy bars, soda, ice cream, etc.
>
> In 1918?
Why not? The U.S. Military had been operating bases in the Phillipines
for 20 years by 1918. Candy bars, IIRC, date back even farther than
that.
--
Mike Dana Everett, Washington, U.S.A.
"Assumption is the father of misunderstanding."
--Mike Dana, 23 June, 1997
CG Luxford
On Wed, 29 Sep 1999, Opus (:> wrote:
> > Oh, it's not a play...not anything near that classy or intellectual. A
> > cheesy 70's sit-com which, though it had *some* moments, was by and
> > large a half hour of crap.
> >
> Ooh, hate to tell you dear, but it was based on an already existing
> British sit-com with the same situation. Sorry but I can't remember the
> name of it.
>
It sounds like "Man about the House", I think it was made by Thames.
There were a couple of offshoots after it ended.
"Robin's Nest" in which Robin, the male flatmate, had set up in the
restaurant trade. And George and Mildred, in which the landlord and
landlady move out to the suburbs.
Chris,
Opus (:>
CG Luxford wrote:
--
CG Luxford
On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Mary Fisher wrote:
> >
> > Seriously, have you ever seen a college professor this
> incompetent?
>
> No stories from this end, we don't have professors in colleges.
>
Chris,
Mary Fisher
CG Luxford <hi...@bris.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.05.990930...@eis.bris.ac.uk...
Of course. I stand corrected yet again. But our Colleges aren't
quite the same as 'theirs', are they?
Mary the Chandler
D. Spencer Hines
There are certainly no surprises in that well-known phenomenon. We've
seen the behavioural pattern repeatedly.
Why is it that some college professors have this _weevil in the brain_,
which leads them to hold forth and pontificate on a topic where they are
quite clueless?
You'd think that they would learn, after being kicked in the derriere
several times.
But no, they are quite persistently stubborn --- BS particularly so.
I'm going to start referring to him as _Iron Pants_, henceforth.
Both Yale and Harvard have Residential Colleges, and Professors who are
Fellows in them.
Oxford and Cambridge did this long before in Great Britain. Other
British institutions, as we have been told by the Brits, have adopted
various features of this plan.
The Residential College idea is an excellent one. It allows 150 to 400
or so students to share dining facilities, social activities, hobby and
athletic facilities [photographic lab, weight room, computer centre,
printing press, sauna, whatever] a library, a courtyard and living
accommodations and some classes.
I believe a university in North Carolina may also have implemented the
Residential College idea. Perhaps there are others in the United
States.
But, within the English-speaking world, the Brits had it first.
Vide infra.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Warriors --- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
Brian M. Scott <sc...@math.csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:37f57802...@nntp.stratos.net...
| On Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:49:03 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
| <Ma...@38smv.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
|
| > I stand corrected yet again.
|
| Do please sit down; surely typing whilst standing is very
| uncomfortable.
|
| > But our Colleges aren't
| >quite the same as 'theirs', are they?
|
| Mostly not. My university, for instance, has Colleges of Engineering,
| Business, Communication (don't ask!), Arts & Sciences, and a few more;
| this sort of division by type of subject is not at all uncommon. The
| closest thing that I've seen to your model is the Clarement [sic]
Colleges,
CLAREMONT --- in California.
| which are not part of a university but which share occupy [sic]
contiguous
| land, keep a common schedule, permit easy cross-registration, and
| share a number of facilities, including the main library, in the
| interests of reducing expenses.
|
| Brian M. Scott
The Yale-Harvard model [based on Oxford and Cambridge] and implemented
in the 1920's by NO means reduces expenses. Dining Halls, as noted, to
take just one example are duplicated.
Yale has 12 Residential Colleges, plus several other dining halls for
graduate students of various flavours.
Harvard has a quite similar structure.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Brian M. Scott
<Ma...@38smv.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> I stand corrected yet again.
Do please sit down; surely typing whilst standing is very
uncomfortable.
> But our Colleges aren't
>quite the same as 'theirs', are they?
Mostly not. My university, for instance, has Colleges of Engineering,
Business, Communication (don't ask!), Arts & Sciences, and a few more;
this sort of division by type of subject is not at all uncommon. The
closest thing that I've seen to your model is the Clarement Colleges,
which are not part of a university but which share occupy contiguous
CG Luxford
> > > >
> > > > Seriously, have you ever seen a college professor this
> > > incompetent?
> > >
> > > No stories from this end, we don't have professors in
> colleges.
> > >
> > We do when the College is part of a University.
>
> quite the same as 'theirs', are they?
>
Chris,
Paul J Gans
>Chris,
American higher education is mostly modelled after
19th century German higher education. Academic
ranks were quickly Americanized.
Graduate schools, which grant masters and doctors
degrees came very late to the U.S. NYU is one of
the oldest graduate schools, the graduate school
being founded about 115 years ago.
----- Paul J. Gans [ga...@panix.com]
CG Luxford
On Sat, 2 Oct 1999, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:49:03 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
>
>
> uncomfortable.
>
> >quite the same as 'theirs', are they?
>
> Business, Communication (don't ask!), Arts & Sciences, and a few more;
> this sort of division by type of subject is not at all uncommon.
At British Universities these sort of divisions are sometimes called
faculties (eg Faculty of Arts, Faculty of Social Science) and will be
made up of a number of different departments, institutes, centres etc.
Other Universities just have the departments etc. With no umbrella
grouping.
> The
> closest thing that I've seen to your model is the Clarement Colleges,
> which are not part of a university but which share occupy contiguous
> land, keep a common schedule, permit easy cross-registration, and
> share a number of facilities, including the main library, in the
> interests of reducing expenses.
>
That does sound very similar to earlier versions of the Oxbridge model.
The word "college" is also used by Publkc Schools (which are of course
private) and the various institutions catering for further education in
all its many forms. As well as some institutions which are not part of a
university, but teach higher education.
Chris,
Rob Churchill
>The word "college" is also used by Publkc Schools (which are of course
>private) and the various institutions catering for further education in
>all its many forms. As well as some institutions which are not part of a
>university, but teach higher education.
'Further education', Chris, as opposed to 'higher education'.
Regards,
Rob.
Kimberly & Steve Johnson
>
> On Fri, 1 Oct 1999, Mary Fisher wrote:
> > CG Luxford <hi...@bris.ac.uk> wrote in message
> > > On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Mary Fisher wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Seriously, have you ever seen a college professor this
> > > > incompetent?
> > > >
> > > > No stories from this end, we don't have professors in
> > colleges.
> > > >
> > > We do when the College is part of a University.
> >
> > quite the same as 'theirs', are they?
> >
Olwyn Mawr
Rob Churchill wrote in message <37fa5391...@news.tesco.net>...
Unbelievably to anybody who has witnessed the transformations in the
British higher education sector over the past quarter-century or so, there
really are still a few "Colleges of Higher Education". Fife even has a
"College of Further and Higher Education", just to confuse us still
further.
David Read
.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>Unbelievably to anybody who has witnessed the transformations in the
>British higher education sector over the past quarter-century or so, there
>really are still a few "Colleges of Higher Education". Fife even has a
>"College of Further and Higher Education", just to confuse us still
>further.
Onwards *and* upwards...
cheers,
--
David Read
D. Spencer Hines
| just to confuse us still further.
What is taught --- proctology?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Warriors --- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
Olwyn Mawr <ol...@trochos.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7tgdcg$4t4$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
|
| Rob Churchill wrote in message <37fa5391...@news.tesco.net>...
| >On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:08:39 GMT, CG Luxford <hi...@bris.ac.uk> wrote:
| >
| >>The word "college" is also used by Publkc Schools (which are of
course
| >>private) and the various institutions catering for further education
in
| >>all its many forms. As well as some institutions which are not part
of a
| >>university, but teach higher education.
| >
| >'Further education', Chris, as opposed to 'higher education'.
|
Olwyn Mawr
D. Spencer Hines wrote in message
<7tgdng$9ij$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
>| Fife even has a "College of Further and Higher Education",
>| just to confuse us still further.
>
>What is taught --- proctology?
There's an easy way to find out: www.fife.ac.uk
Kareem
Kareem
Pax Vobiscum
--
Kareem
Pax Vobiscum
D. Spencer Hines wrote in message
<7tgdng$9ij$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
>| Fife even has a "College of Further and Higher Education",
>| just to confuse us still further.
>
>What is taught --- proctology?
>--
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>Warriors --- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
>personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
>continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
>time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
>understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
>
>Olwyn Mawr <ol...@trochos.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:7tgdcg$4t4$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>|
>| Rob Churchill wrote in message <37fa5391...@news.tesco.net>...
>| >On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:08:39 GMT, CG Luxford <hi...@bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>| >
>| >>The word "college" is also used by Publkc Schools (which are of
>course
>| >>private) and the various institutions catering for further education
>in
>| >>all its many forms. As well as some institutions which are not part
>of a
>| >>university, but teach higher education.
>| >
>| >'Further education', Chris, as opposed to 'higher education'.
>|
>| Unbelievably to anybody who has witnessed the transformations in the
>| British higher education sector over the past quarter-century or so,
>there
>| really are still a few "Colleges of Higher Education". Fife even has a