Nero's Rotating Banquet Hall Found?
Poetic Justice
get in the way of World-wide publicity:). Regards, Walter
http://tinyurl.com/ybw9xet
Nero's rotating banquet hall unveiled in Rome By MARTA FALCONI (AP)
ROME — Archaeologists on Tuesday unveiled what they think are the
remains of Roman emperor Nero's extravagant banquet hall, a circular
space that rotated day and night to imitate the Earth's movement and
impress his guests.
The room, part of Nero's Golden Palace, a sprawling residence built in
the first century A.D., is thought to have been built to entertain
government officials and VIPs, said lead archaeologist Francoise
Villedieu.
The emperor, known for his lavish and depraved lifestyle, ruled from 37
A.D. to 68 A.D.
The dig so far has turned up the foundations of the room, the rotating
mechanism underneath and part of an attached space believed to be the
kitchens, she said.
"This cannot be compared to anything that we know of in ancient Roman
architecture," Villedieu told reporters during a tour of the
cordoned-off dig.
She said the location of the discovery atop the Palatine Hill, the
rotating structure and references to it in ancient biographies of Nero
make the attribution to the emperor most likely.
The partially excavated site is part of the sumptuous residence, also
known by its Latin name Domus Aurea, which rose over the ruins of a fire
that destroyed much of Rome in A.D. 64.
The purported main dining room, with a diameter of over 50 feet (16
meters), rested upon a 13-foot (4-meter) wide pillar and four spherical
mechanisms that, likely powered by a constant flow of water, rotated the
structure.
The discovery was made during routine maintenance of the fragile
Palatine area, officials said.
Latin biographer and historian Suetonius, who chronicled his times and
wrote the biographies of 12 Roman rulers, refers to a main dining room
that revolved "day and night, in time with the sky."
Angelo Bottini, the state's top official for archaeology in Rome, said
the ceiling of the rotating room might have been the one mentioned by
Suetonius, who wrote of ivory panels sliding back and forth to shower
flowers and perfumes on the guests below.
"The heart of every activity in ancient Rome was the banquet, together
with some form of entertainment," Bottini said at the dig.
"Nero was like the sun, and people were revolving around the emperor."
That part of the palace — which sprawled across nearly 200 acres (80
hectares) occupying parts of four out of Rome's seven ancient hills —
offered a panoramic view over the Roman Forum and a lake, later drained
by Nero's successors to build the Colosseum, Bottini said.
Described by Suetonius as one of Rome's most cruel, depraved and
megalomaniac rulers, Nero often indulged in orgies and, fancying himself
an artist, entertained guests with his own performances of poetry and
songs.
However, Nero did not enjoy the frescoed halls and gold-encrusted
ceilings of his Golden Palace for too long. It was completed in A.D. 68
— the year the unpopular emperor committed suicide amid a revolt.
Christopher Ingham
> Hopefully true but they do have the past rep for not letting the facts
It matches the description, and is in the right place -- from what I
gather from one of the photos. It has been generally supposed that the
octagonal room in the Esquiline wing of the Domus Aurea was the one
described by Suetonius ("The main dining- room was circular, and its
roof revolved day and night, in time with the sky" --_Nero_31),
although there was no evidence of any mechanisms which would have made
it rotate.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kDNobJFWygcC&pg=PA259&lpg=PA259&dq=domus+aurea+octagonal+hall+suetonius&source=bl&ots=AUZvq2ssUo&sig=HoLRyMvuBKi2TFr5FXpcwcmgr5E&hl=en&ei=05LDSq_nMY6XlAee39zbBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=domus%20aurea%20octagonal%20hall%20suetonius&f=false
The press reports don't specify exactly where on the Palatine the
discovery is. The palaces on this hill comprised the vast complex of
Nero's Golden House, which extended to the Esquiline, the Caelian, and
the valley of the (future) Colosseum. One of the photos appears to be
of structures on the northeast sector (Villa Barberini) of the hill;
and Françoise Villedieu, the quoted archaeologist, has been involved
with the École Française de Rome for the past 25 years or so in the
excavations in this area of the Palatine. So evidently the dining hall
overlooked the Colosseum valley, which at the time contained Nero's
large artificial lake (_stagnum_) surrounded by a landscaped park and
"buildings made to resemble cities" (Suet._Nero_31), these "cities"
comprising, e.g., the Palatine and Esquiline wings of the palace, the
atrrium to the palace on the site of the future Temple of Venus and
Roma, and the artificial hill with a nymphaeum which later served as
the platform of the Temple of the Deified Claudius.
Christopher Ingham
Poetic Justice
>It has been generally supposed that the
>octagonal room in the Esquiline wing of
>the Domus Aurea was the one described
>by Suetonius ("The main dining- room was
>circular, and its roof revolved day and
>night, in time with the sky" --_Nero_31),
>although there was no evidence of any
>mechanisms which would have made it
>rotate.
Plus today they don't even think it was a dining-room and IIRC no
evidence of kitchens or anything connected with food or dining
preparations exists anywhere in that section of the Domus Aurea.
The 2 theories are;
That room had luxurious furnishings where guests could recline, relax
and think.
OR
An exhibition space for art lighted by the oculus.
Also the dome ceiling was never finished, I've taken the tour twice and
you can still see the plank impressions in the concrete from when it was
poured.
Either this room was never finished or there was a false ceiling in
place?
Christopher you read Latin so I have a question for you if you don't
mind.
What *exactly* does Suetonius say about this rotating banquet hall?
I have this translated quote from the 'Lacus Curtius' website;
"The main banquet hall was circular and constantly revolved day and
night, like the heavens".
It doesn't say the 'roof' but does seem to imply it (man
stationary-heavens revolve).
Also is there an ancient source or sources that state that it was the
floor or room that actually revolved?
All the articles are quoting Suetonius who seems to be on the revolving
ceiling bandwagon while they are stating it was the floor/room that
revolved???
Plus "it was discovered during routine maintance", "it was discovered
during excavations", "the mechanism has been discovered", "4 stone
spheres with an unidentifed liquid inside has been discovered" but yet
the only photos I've seen have been of a 4m wide brick-faced pillar:-)
(unless I've missed them?).
It's just that their past archaeological claims have made me very leery
of any new finds.
>The press reports don't specify exactly
>where on the Palatine the discovery is.
>[snip] One of the photos appears to be of
>structures on the northeast sector (Villa
>Barberini) of the hill; and Françoise
>Villedieu, the quoted archaeologist, has
>been involved with the École Française de
>Rome for the past 25 years or so in the
>excavations in this area of the Palatine.
>So evidently the dining hall overlooked the
>Colosseum valley, which at the time
>contained Nero's large artificial lake
>(_stagnum_) surrounded by a landscaped
>park and "buildings made to resemble
>cities"
Thanks for narrowing down the location, I was curious.
>...and the artificial hill with a nymphaeum
>which later served as the platform of the
>Temple of the Deified Claudius.
Pity Nero never saw the completed temple, I guess he was just too
broken-up by his mother's untimely death to complete mom's building
project to her late husband/uncle who was Nero's
step-father/great-uncle:-).
A long section of the nymphaeum's brick-faced concrete survives today
on the Via Claudia, nothing of the temple though but a small corner of
the travertine platform's arcade was used as a partial base for a C12
belltower.
Regards, Walter
rick++
under the floors. Is there a collection of their descriptions
somewhere?
Christopher Ingham
> Christopher Ingham wrote;
>
> >It has been generally supposed that the
> >octagonal room in the Esquiline wing of
> >the Domus Aurea was the one described
> >by Suetonius ("The main dining- room was
> >circular, and its roof revolved day and
> >night, in time with the sky" --_Nero_31),
> >although there was no evidence of any
> >mechanisms which would have made it
> >rotate.
>
> Plus today they don't even think it was a dining-room and IIRC no
> evidence of kitchens or anything connected with food or dining
> preparations exists anywhere in that section of the Domus Aurea.
>
> The 2 theories are;
> That room had luxurious furnishings where guests could recline, relax
> and think.
> OR
> An exhibition space for art lighted by the oculus.
The functions of any of the rooms of the Oppian wing are not known.
The octagonal room, however, in its architectural disposition has the
characteristics of an_oecus_, a chamber centrally-located in relation
to surrounding rooms with usually a strategic view onto a landscape or
courtyard. The typical well-appointed Roman house or villa contained
several_oeci_, which most frequently served as dining halls, the most
popular and important venues for social interactions. It was not
essential that kitchens be in the vicinity of the dining room -- or
even in the same building.
> Also the dome ceiling was never finished, I've taken the tour twice and
> you can still see the plank impressions in the concrete from when it was
> poured.
> Either this room was never finished or there was a false ceiling in
> place?
The Oppian wing was not completed at Nero's death.
> Christopher you read Latin so I have a question for you if you don't
> mind.
>
> What *exactly* does Suetonius say about this rotating banquet hall?
>
> I have this translated quote from the 'Lacus Curtius' website;
> "The main banquet hall was circular and constantly revolved day and
> night, like the heavens".
He says, "praecipua cenationum rotunda, quae perpetuo diebus ac
noctibus vice mundi circumageretur" (_Nero_31.2). The translation you
give is J. C. Rolfe's, from the Loeb edition, which I can't improve
on.
> It doesn't say the 'roof' but does seem to imply it (man
> stationary-heavens revolve).
>
> Also is there an ancient source or sources that state that it was the
> floor or room that actually revolved?
>
> All the articles are quoting Suetonius who seems to be on the revolving
> ceiling bandwagon while they are stating it was the floor/room that
> revolved???
Suetonius is the only source, and he is clear that the dining room
itself rotated. Later commentators, evidently on the basis of remains
of clearly stationary circular rooms, assumed that the rotating
apparatus must have been in the ceiling.
> Plus "it was discovered during routine maintance", "it was discovered
> during excavations", "the mechanism has been discovered", "4 stone
> spheres with an unidentifed liquid inside has been discovered" but yet
> the only photos I've seen have been of a 4m wide brick-faced pillar:-)
> (unless I've missed them?).
>
> It's just that their past archaeological claims have made me very leery
> of any new finds.
The finds seem conclusive, though: the large pillar was the pivot, and
the spherical devices located at right angles to one another at the
edges of the circle were the ball bearings.
> >The press reports don't specify exactly
> >where on the Palatine the discovery is.
> >[snip] One of the photos appears to be of
> >structures on the northeast sector (Villa
> >Barberini) of the hill; and Françoise
> >Villedieu, the quoted archaeologist, has
> >been involved with the École Française de
> >Rome for the past 25 years or so in the
> >excavations in this area of the Palatine.
> >So evidently the dining hall overlooked the
> >Colosseum valley, which at the time
> >contained Nero's large artificial lake
> >(_stagnum_) surrounded by a landscaped
> >park and "buildings made to resemble
> >cities"
>
> Thanks for narrowing down the location, I was curious.
Another circular hall, built atop the so-called Baths of Livia and
itself submerged by the triclinium of the Domus Flavia on the
Palatine, was until recently identified as a_tholus_of the Domus
Aurea, perhaps the_cenationum rotunda_, but is now proposed to be a
Vespasianic temple to Vesta.
Christopher Ingham
Matt Giwer
rotated or just the ceiling rotated. Anyone know or do I have to look it up?
--
Between religion and science, only religion can retreat.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4185
http://www.giwersworld.org/bible/sewer-bible.phtml a15
Fri Oct 2 22:53:22 EDT 2009
Whiskers
> Reading what has been posted here it is not clear whether the
> entire room rotated or just the ceiling rotated. Anyone know or do I have
> to look it up?
Suetonius says the room rotated. Later commentators couldn't believe it
and assumed he meant that only the ceiling rotated. If this latest find
is being interpreted correctly, Suetonius got his description right. It's
clearly a massive and complex construction, quite in keeping with Nero's
megalomaniac reputation
<http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iQPJJbma8j1ft1YJbsTGFMJlyY_wD9B1A14O0>
The Greeks (before the Romans destroyed rather a lot) were pretty good at
designing marvellous machines; even the Romans didn't manage to destroy
that knowledge entirely. For example
<http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm>.
You'll probably be particularly pleased with the gadgets 'to open the
temple doors when a fire is lit on the alter' and such marvels <WEG>
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Christopher Ingham
> The Greeks (before the Romans destroyed rather a lot) were pretty good at
> designing marvellous machines; even the Romans didn't manage to destroy
> that knowledge entirely. For example
> <http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm>.
What do you mean by "the Romans destroyed rather a lot," and " even
the Romans didn't manage to destroy that knowledge [of marvelous
machinery] entirely"?
The Roman influence on the Greek world was emphatically benign. In
fact, a cultural Hellenic renascence was ongoing at the time Heron
lived, fostered by Roman rule.
Christopher Ingham
Whiskers
> On Oct 3, 7:24 am, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Greeks (before the Romans destroyed rather a lot) were pretty good at
>> designing marvellous machines; even the Romans didn't manage to destroy
>> that knowledge entirely. For example
>> <http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm>.
>
> What do you mean by "the Romans destroyed rather a lot," and " even
> the Romans didn't manage to destroy that knowledge [of marvelous
> machinery] entirely"?
The most striking example of what vanished under the Roman military
machine, is the astonishment that surrounded "the Antikythera device" when
it's nature was realised. Nothing comparable was made again until at least
the 17th century.
The Romans were very good at exploiting technology developed by others,
when it suited their own need for impressive structures or more efficient
food production and distribution (eg the Etruscan arch, Carthaginian
concrete and shipbuilding, Greek surveying and writing and
represantational art, "Celtic" metalwork) but their own innovations were
generally restricted to developing and expanding the ideas they got from
others. They were not much interested in 'natural philosophy' or what we
would call 'science' or 'mathematics' for their own sake. The Roman
attitude to such matters persisted until Islamic scholars began to take an
interest in what they found in the remains of the Greek libraries, and
spread that knowledge into Europe once again.
I feel that this Roman legacy held back science and technology and
philosophy for about a millenium. Which I suppose is an accomplishment of
a sort.
> The Roman influence on the Greek world was emphatically benign.
The Romans were greeted with garlands and sweet-meats and willingly given
all the property and slaves they asked for, and were frequently begged to
stay and never go nor let the natives own or run anything?
<http://www.scribd.com/doc/13971710/The-Greek-World-Under-Roman-Sway-From-Polybius-to-Plutarch>
(horrible site; requires "Flash" to display a 19th century book somewhat
ineptly scanned my Microsoft). That may be an old book, but it's not
pre-Roman (or particularly pro-Roman).
> In
> fact, a cultural Hellenic renascence was ongoing at the time Heron
> lived, fostered by Roman rule.
>
> Christopher Ingham
I'll grant that Heron wasn't actually suppressed - but his work is more a
compilation of knowledge gleaned from pre-Roman sources found in the
(Graeco-Egyptian) Library of Alexandria, than a reflection of research and
development taking place in his own lifetime. There would have been no
need for a renaiscence either in 1st century Egypt or 14th century Italy
if the scientific culture of the Greeks hadn't been suppressed and stifled
in the first place.
Poetic Justice
Archeological di Roma' 1999 which I assume contains updated info and
theories based on current info.]
Christopher Ingham wrote;
>The functions of any of the rooms of the
>Oppian wing are not known.
Well they are fairly certain the western wing and what they have
discovered of the eastern wing wasn't residential (no door hinges on
rooms, all main rooms freely open to the southern facade, no latrines,
kitchens or heating systems) so any of those functions are off the list.
<quote> In fact, what we have is a "dynamic" pavilion, inside which the
Emperor and his guests could walk, enjoying the space of the complex,
its works of art, fountains, the panoramas looking over the park and
valley and stopping in the main halls (Octagonal Room is one listed)
given over to moments of repose".
100+ small accessible rooms in a maze-like lay-out have been excavated,
they seem to be part of the art (frescos, decorations, architecture and
perhaps sculptures)?
>The octagonal room, however, in its
>architectural disposition has the
>characteristics of an_oecus_, a chamber
>centrally-located in relation to surrounding
>rooms with usually a strategic view onto a
>landscape or courtyard.
In the guidebook they define 'oecus' as a 'living room' which also
fits one of the theories for the Octagonal Room.
>The typical well-appointed Roman house
>or villa contained several_oeci_, which
>most frequently served as dining halls, the
>most popular and important venues for
>social interactions. It was not essential
>that kitchens be in the vicinity of the
>dining room -- or even in the same
>building.
But you would think that if the Octagonal Room's main purpose was for
dining that the kitchens would be nearby, they do have plenty of space.
It is one of the things mentioned in the new discovery as possible proof
for the rotating hall.
And you would think for such an elaborate room a hypoclaust
heating system would have been installed so it could be used year-round?
Also no latrines makes it hard to enjoy a *long* leasurely meal:).
Plus with a nymphaeum as a highlight in one of Octagonal Room's
connecting rooms you have a waste water channel beneath the floor and
all you need are the seats:).
>The Oppian wing was not completed at
>Nero's death.
Probably not but it did survive intact for 35 more years until the 104AD
Fire.
And we know Otho gave 50m Sesterces to complete the Palace and
Vitellius possibly keep it on-going to keep his complaining wife
happy:).
Granted both short-term reigns and what part of the Palace did they
actually keep constructing?
Could the Flavians have added some unrecorded finishing touches?
The rooms I visited are only those listed in the guidebook but they
were all completed from what I understand.
Besides the expensive gold leaf, gems, marbles, ivory, etc., the
marble facing, floor materials and anything that could be reused was
also stripped-away after the Fire so the Baths of Trajan could be built.
[I want to add this to my previous post] The Octagonal Room was
elaborately finished, the vault or dome was still rough possibly because
it was covered by a wood and decorative fabric false ceiling (2 rings
around the oculus and a lower ring on the vault might have held a wooden
frame).
Also they seem to have *wanted* the Octagonal Room to be Nero's
rotating dining room since it was discovered, so it will always be
assocated with a dining room and perhaps it was.
>Suetonius is the only source, and he is
>clear that the dining room itself rotated.
>Later commentators, evidently on the
>basis of remains of clearly stationary
>circular rooms, assumed that the rotating
>apparatus must have been in the ceiling.
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me, google sites were giving me
a rotating floor, room or ceiling translations:).
Now Suetonius never saw this room but had recent records and/or
possible 1st hand accounts I assume?
If not, couldn't this room have been exaggerated over the decades?
I'm wondering because he also states that the baths in the Domus Aurea
were supplied by 'sea water' and 'sulphurous water' (if this is a good
translation)?
Sea water could only be brought in by hand from the sea and
sulphurous water also by hand unless they built an aqueduct just for
that purpose?
Possible but sounds like an urban legend?
>The finds seem conclusive, though: the
>large pillar was the pivot, and the
>spherical devices located at right angles
>to one another at the edges of the circle
>were the ball bearings.
This 4m pillar I've noticed by looking at photos has at least seperate 2
floors of concrete supporting arches surrounding it and then it extends
into the excavation trench which I assume is the level of the dining
room?
If this pillar was a pivot it was built to support a massive
amount of weight.
So they're talking of a possible 50ft diameter wooden floor with
furnishings, people, etc rotating on a pivot area.
"Spherical devices" are the several stone balls that have been
found.
The friction at the pivot and at the stone spheres caused by the weight
of this floor would need quite alot of force to keep this in motion?
If the water from the aqueduct powered it, I would guess that it
required all or most of the water to be channeled to this device which
of course is still clean and can be used again?
Plus friction=noise & vibration and they seem to imply it rotated
24/7, this would cause alot of wear and tear on the parts.
But if the wooden floor was floated in a circular tank built into
the actual floor, the pivot point would just keep it centered and the
stone balls would only come into play if the floor tipped due to people
off-centering it.
With alot less friction it would be easy to keep it in motion with
the force of water.
Anyway I just wish they would elaborate more on the mechanics of
the find, a wide pillar and 4 stone balls is rather vague.
I'd like to know where the stone balls were found, if in the
dining room that's pretty conclusive but if 2 or more floors below it's
not.
I mention that because I saw a large marble ball (large beach ball
size) on a stone track IIRC beneath the arena in Capua it was in a wide
trench that ran the axis of the amphitheater. This trench seems to be
for drainage and I assume the ball was possibly used to block (or
possibly allow) the flow of water somewhere?
Also one the size of a small bowling ball that I assume an
archaeologist put on a wall during an excavation of the Forum of Nerva.
I don't know what those were but could stone spheres in buildings have
an everyday practial purpose also?
Regards, Walter
Christopher Ingham
> [I'm using my 'Domus Aurea' guidebook put out by the 'Soprintendenza
Archeological di Roma' 1999 which I assume contains updated info and
theories based on current info.]
> Christopher Ingham wrote;
> >The functions of any of the rooms of the Oppian wing are not known.
> Well they are fairly certain the western wing and what they have discovered of the eastern wing wasn't residential (no door hinges on rooms, all main rooms freely open to the southern facade, no latrines, kitchens or heating systems) so any of those functions are off the list. <quote> In fact, what we have is a "dynamic" pavilion, inside which the Emperor and his guests could walk, enjoying the space of the complex, its works of art, fountains, the panoramas looking over the park and valley and stopping in the main halls (Octagonal Room is one listed) given over to moments of repose".
Calling a building a pavilion can designate one its functions but does
not necessarily exclude others. Elsewhere in the book you cite (which
I also have) Segala says, "As far as architecture is concerned,
the_Domus Aurea_follows the example of the suburban villas of the late
Republican and early imperial periods, and models itself above all on
the maritime villas of Campania [...] above all by Baie" [13]. She
also says, "The large hall on the same axis of the courtyard [room no.
29] was certainly meant for reception purposes, and may have been a
triclinium [=dining room].... On the eastern side of the peristyle,
the vast hall (no. 44) may be one of the dining rooms (_cenationes_)
mentioned by Suetonius, or a living room (_oecus_) or a winter
triclinium [= dining room].... The main buildings of the eastern wing
are arranged around the courtyard -- at the centre of which is the
Room of the Gilded Vault (no. 80), perhaps a large triclinium [=
dining room]" [24-5].
http://books.google.com/books?id=UTQLPQAACAAJ&dq=domus+aurea&ei=SlrJSu2sJoPYNcX48IEE
As for the uses of the Oppian wing, Amanda Claridge (_Oxford
Archaeological Guides: Rome_, 1998, 290-1) says, "In his later, madder
years, Nero was a fanatical banquet-giver and the entire lower floor
of his new wing seems designed for the purpose, with triple and
quintuple suites of dining rooms in many shapes and sizes. There are
fifty around a rectangular peristyle court[....] Another fifteen rooms
were grouped around a pentagonal court, and a remarkable set of five,
with a cascade of water running down the back, looked onto an
octagonal court."
http://books.google.com/books?id=RX_MPqbjOp0C&pg=PA290&lpg=PA290&dq=Buried+in+the+SW+sector+of+the+platform+of+the+Baths+of+Trajan&source=bl&ots=9M4tQjw1g6&sig=Mr2GxQ_Jjg-AoTYt4X0spfXF2Ow&hl=en&ei=qFHJSqGoLIvkMLq8uPIH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=Buried%20in%20the%20SW%20sector%20of%20the%20platform%20of%20the%20Baths%20of%20Trajan&f=false
> >The octagonal room, however, in its architectural disposition has the characteristics of an_oecus_, a chamber centrally-located in relation to surrounding rooms with usually a strategic view onto a landscape or courtyard.
> In the guidebook they define 'oecus' as a 'living room' which also fits one of the theories for the Octagonal Room.
Oeci appear to have had many functions and are frequently understood
to be dining halls by many of the authors on Roman villa studies I
have read.
http://archaeology.uakron.edu/pompeii_site/Topics/rooms/oecus.html
> >The typical well-appointed Roman house or villa contained several_oeci_, which most frequently served as dining halls, the most popular and important venues for social interactions. It was not essential that kitchens be in the vicinity of the dining room -- or even in the same building.
> But you would think that if the Octagonal Room's main purpose was for dining that the kitchens would be nearby, they do have plenty of space. It is one of the things mentioned in the new discovery as possible proof for the rotating hall.
I repeat: it was not essential in houses of the elite that kitchens be
in the vicinity of the dining room -- or even in the same building.
Besides, what remains of the Oppian wing is only the lower and
southern edge of what was a much larger building.
> And you would think for such an elaborate room a hypoclaust heating system would have been installed so it could be used year-round?
Different dining rooms were preferred depending on the occasion, the
season, weather, and the time of day.
> Also no latrines makes it hard to enjoy a *long* leasurely meal:). Plus with a nymphaeum as a highlight in one of Octagonal Room's connecting rooms you have a waste water channel beneath the floor and all you need are the seats:).
You can be sure that they were nearby.
> >The Oppian wing was not completed at Nero's death.
> Probably not but it did survive intact for 35 more years until the 104AD Fire. And we know Otho gave 50m Sesterces to complete the Palace and Vitellius possibly keep it on-going to keep his complaining wife happy:). Granted both short-term reigns and what part of the Palace did they actually keep constructing? Could the Flavians have added some unrecorded finishing touches?
The sources are not specific as to what parts of the palace continued
to be used after Nero's death. There are some Othonian remnants in the
Oppian wing, but I'm not sure at the moment where specifically these
are (Larry F. Ball analyzes the masonry of the wing in_The Domus Aurea
and Roman Architectural Revolution_, 2003). Vespasian probably avoided
the D.A.; Titus is known to have resided at times in some part of it;
and Domitian preferred his own little palace on the Palatine. A
Neronian bath complex attached to the Oppian wing may have been the
precursor of the Baths of Titus. According to Filippo Coarelli (_Rome
and Environs_, 2007, 186-7), the Baths of Titus facing the Colosseum
"shared exactly the same axis as the remains of the Domus Aurea
[Oppian wing], which bordered it to the east. This orientation,
together with the speed with which the work [of Titus] was completed,
as the poet Martial emphasized, suggests that the building was merely
a renovation or adaptation of a bath complex of the Domus Aurea
mentioned by Suetonius. Such an interpretation well suits the Flavian
political program of restoring Neronian buildings to public use." (See
also G. Caruso, in_LTUR_4, 1999, s.v. "Thermae Titi/Titianae": "Queste
terme occupavano l'area NE dell'_Amphitheatrum_nella_Reg. III_, subito
a fianco della_Domus Aurea_,sulla quale forse si andarono in parte a
sovrapporte. Caratteristica della politica flavia fu, infatti, quella
di restituire all'uso pubblico gli spazi in precedenza occupati di
Nerone.")
> The rooms I visited are only those listed in the guidebook but they were all completed from what I understand. Besides the expensive gold leaf, gems, marbles, ivory, etc., the marble facing, floor materials and anything that could be reused was
also stripped-away after the Fire so the Baths of Trajan could be
built.
[I want to add this to my previous post] The Octagonal Room was
elaborately finished, the vault or dome was still rough possibly
because it was covered by a wood and decorative fabric false ceiling
(2 rings around the oculus and a lower ring on the vault might have
held a wooden frame).
Laura Fabbrini, probably the best authority on the Oppian wing of the
Domus Aurea, says that parts of the building apparently were never
completed, especially the area around the octagonal hall, where many
walls have no traces of plaster and others were only partially dressed
(_LTUR_2, 1995, s.v. "Domus Aurea: il palazzo sull'Esquilino"): "È
probabile che il palazzo non fosse stato mai completato in tutte le
parti previste dal progetto. Numerosi vani, specialmente nel settore
alle spalle della 'Sala Ottagona', presentano cortine prive della
rasatura finale e non hanno traccia di intonaci; altri ebbero
rivestimenti parietali solo in maniera parziale."
> Also they seem to have *wanted* the Octagonal Room to be Nero's rotating dining room since it was discovered, so it will always be assocated with a dining room and perhaps it was.
> >Suetonius is the only source, and he is clear that the dining room itself rotated. Later commentators, evidently on the basis of remains of clearly stationary circular rooms, assumed that the rotating apparatus must have been in the ceiling.
> Ok thanks for clearing that up for me, google sites were giving me a rotating floor, room or ceiling translations:). Now Suetonius never saw this room but had recent records and/or possible 1st hand accounts I assume? If not, couldn't this room have been exaggerated over the decades?
Any of these are possibilities, granted that Suetonius is even
providing accurate information. If it did in fact exist, the account
of it is probably not an exaggeration, given Nero's theatrical
grandiosity.
> I'm wondering because he also states that the baths in the Domus Aurea were supplied by 'sea water' and 'sulphurous water' (if this is a good translation)? Sea water could only be brought in by hand from the sea and sulphurous water also by hand unless they built an aqueduct just for that purpose? Possible but sounds like an urban legend?
The emperors had almost limitless means at their disposal.
> >The finds seem conclusive, though: the large pillar was the pivot, and the spherical devices located at right angles to one another at the edge of the circle were the ball bearings.
> This 4m pillar I've noticed by looking at photos has at least seperate 2 floors of concrete supporting arches surrounding it and then it extends into the excavation trench which I assume is the level of the dining room? If this pillar was a pivot it was built to support a massive amount of weight. So they're talking of a possible 50ft diameter wooden floor with furnishings, people, etc rotating on a pivot area.
"Spherical devices" are the several stone balls that have been found.
The friction at the pivot and at the stone spheres caused by the
weight of this floor would need quite alot of force to keep this in
motion? If the water from the aqueduct powered it, I would guess that
it required all or most of the water to be channeled to this device
which of course is still clean and can be used again? Plus
friction=noise & vibration and they seem to imply it rotated 24/7,
this would cause alot of wear and tear on the parts.
But if the wooden floor was floated in a circular tank built into the
actual floor, the pivot point would just keep it centered and the
stone balls would only come into play if the floor tipped due to
people off-centering it. With alot less friction it would be easy to
keep it in motion with the force of water.
From the sparse info that's been provided, the rotating platform was
quite light. You're probably aware that Gaius Scribonius Curio in the
first century BCE built two temporary wooden theaters in Rome which
turned on pivots to form an amphitheater (Pliny,_NH_36.15.117-20)?
> Anyway I just wish they would elaborate more on the mechanics of the find, a wide pillar and 4 stone balls is rather vague. I'd like to know where the stone balls were found, if in the dining room that's pretty conclusive but if 2 or more floors below it's not.
I'd expect to see a field report in_BullCom_soon.
Christopher Ingham
Whiskers
> On Oct 4, 6:19 pm, paradisel...@webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
[...]
>> Also no latrines makes it hard to enjoy a *long* leasurely meal:). Plus
>> with a nymphaeum as a highlight in one of Octagonal Room's connecting
>> rooms you have a waste water channel beneath the floor and all you need
>> are the seats:).
>
> You can be sure that they were nearby.
[...]
Unless the mad Emperor thought it would be amusing to oblige his 'guests'
to eat and drink a lot without the neccessary facilities to hand ;))
Jack Linthicum
Did this palacxe have the traditional vomitorium?
Whiskers
> [I'm using my 'Domus Aurea' guidebook put out by the 'Soprintendenza
> Archeological di Roma' 1999 which I assume contains updated info and
> theories based on current info.]
>
> Christopher Ingham wrote;
[...]
>>The finds seem conclusive, though: the
>>large pillar was the pivot, and the
>>spherical devices located at right angles
>>to one another at the edges of the circle
>>were the ball bearings.
>
>
> This 4m pillar I've noticed by looking at photos has at least seperate 2
> floors of concrete supporting arches surrounding it and then it extends
> into the excavation trench which I assume is the level of the dining
> room?
>
> If this pillar was a pivot it was built to support a massive
> amount of weight.
> So they're talking of a possible 50ft diameter wooden floor with
> furnishings, people, etc rotating on a pivot area.
> "Spherical devices" are the several stone balls that have been
> found.
> The friction at the pivot and at the stone spheres caused by the weight
> of this floor would need quite alot of force to keep this in motion?
Ball-bearings reduce friction very greatly, particularly if they are
polished and greased. Moving at one rotation in 24 hours isn't exactly
fast, either, so noise and vibration may not have been significant. Cloth
or leather padding on the 'rails' would make things quieter, too.
At a radius of 25 feet, the rim would move (25×2×pi)÷24 = 6.5 feet per
hour or (25×2×pi)÷24÷60×12 = 1.3 inches per minute.
> If the water from the aqueduct powered it, I would guess that it
> required all or most of the water to be channeled to this device which
> of course is still clean and can be used again?
One would think so. The volume of water required may not have been all
that great, particularly if the movement was in fact intermittant (like a
mechanical clock). Muscle-power may have been involved too.
> Plus friction=noise & vibration and they seem to imply it rotated
> 24/7, this would cause alot of wear and tear on the parts.
I wonder how often it actually moved?
> But if the wooden floor was floated in a circular tank built into
> the actual floor, the pivot point would just keep it centered and the
> stone balls would only come into play if the floor tipped due to people
> off-centering it.
> With alot less friction it would be easy to keep it in motion with
> the force of water.
That sounds like a reasonable hypothesis.
> Anyway I just wish they would elaborate more on the mechanics of
> the find, a wide pillar and 4 stone balls is rather vague.
They don't mention any likely mechanical or hydraulic mechanisms. It's
probable that timber, lead, and other re-usable parts would have been
removed long ago.
> I'd like to know where the stone balls were found, if in the
> dining room that's pretty conclusive but if 2 or more floors below it's
> not.
> I mention that because I saw a large marble ball (large beach ball
> size) on a stone track IIRC beneath the arena in Capua it was in a wide
> trench that ran the axis of the amphitheater. This trench seems to be
> for drainage and I assume the ball was possibly used to block (or
> possibly allow) the flow of water somewhere?
Pictures? I think there are records of the Roman Colosseum having been
flooded for 'sea battles'; they also had all sorts of theatrical machines
for 'special effects'.
> Also one the size of a small bowling ball that I assume an
> archaeologist put on a wall during an excavation of the Forum of Nerva.
> I don't know what those were but could stone spheres in buildings have
> an everyday practial purpose also?
> Regards, Walter
Stone spheres seem to have been used for decoration, apart from anything
else. I gather from various web sites that the arena in Capua has largely
been stripped of its fancy stonework but that fragments are scattered
about.
Christopher Ingham
> On Oct 5, 8:25 am, Whiskers <catwhee...@operamail.com> wrote:
> > On 2009-10-05, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > On Oct 4, 6:19 pm, paradisel...@webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
> > >> Also no latrines makes it hard to enjoy a *long* leasurely meal:). Plus
> > >> with a nymphaeum as a highlight in one of Octagonal Room's connecting
> > >> rooms you have a waste water channel beneath the floor and all you need
> > >> are the seats:).
> > > You can be sure that they were nearby.
> > Unless the mad Emperor thought it would be amusing to oblige his 'guests'
> > to eat and drink a lot without the neccessary facilities to hand ;))
> Did this palacxe have the traditional vomitorium?
Vomitoria in the sense which you mean (maybe you're being facetious?)
did not exist. In actuality they were the exit and entrance
passageways of theaters and amphitheaters.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2421/were-there-really-vomitoriums-in-ancient-rome
Christopher Ingham
Christopher Ingham
Domitian (81-96 CE) added a hypogeum beneath the wooden floor of the
arena of the Colosseum, a service area consisting of fifteen corridors
in two storeys running parallel to the major east-west axis of the
elliptical arena. This underground network housed cages for animals,
weapons, scenery (_pegmata_), stage machinery, and other equipment
needed for the games. There were elevators, hoists, winches, stairs,
inclined planes, trapdoors, etc., used for the diverse scenographic
requirements. The hypogeum also communicated via tunnels to various
locations outside of the amphitheater, and was equipped with water
pipes (supplied by the Neronian branch of the Claudian aqueduct) and
drainage facilities.
See R. Rea, "The Underground Chambers," in A. Gabucci, ed.,_The
Colosseum_(2000), 148-59; and, for a brief overview, the "Roman Empire
and Colosseum" website:
http://www.roman-colosseum.info/colosseum/hypogeum.htm
See also D. Mertens et al., "Il Colosseo: Lo studio degli
'ipogei',"_RM_105 (1998): 67-125; and H. J. Beste, "Foundations and
wall structures in the basement of the Colosseum in Rome,"
in_Proceedings of the First International Congress on Construction
History, Madrid, 20th-24th January 2003_, 2003, 373-80:
http://gilbert.aq.upm.es/sedhc/biblioteca_digital/Congresos/CIHC1/CIHC1_036.pdf
Christopher Ingham
Poetic Justice
provide.
>In fact, what we have is a "dynamic"
>pavilion, inside which the Emperor and his
>guests could walk, enjoying the space of
>the complex, its works of art, fountains,
>the panoramas looking over the park and
>valley and stopping in the main halls given
>over to moments of repose".
Christopher Ingham wrote;
>Calling a building a pavilion can designate
>one its functions but does not necessarily
>exclude others.
But if that was its main function and the main reason it was built
all the others would be secondary, like occasional receptions, banquets
or small group dining.
My big question about this site is the purpose for a maze of *alot*
of small elaborate rooms?
I think the rooms were part of the art
that Nero & Co would see as they leasurely strolled by?
The quirky maze-like lay-out would make the stroll interesting with so
many different twists & turns each walk would follow a different route.
I find it hard to accept Amanda Claridge's theory that they are small
seperate dining rooms?
A banquet where the guests are all isolated into small groups in
small rooms?
>There are some Othonian remnants in the
>Oppian wing,
Thanks for that info, I guess he thought he's be around awhile to enjoy
it:).
He is my favorite of the 3 short-termers.
>Besides, what remains of the Oppian wing
>is only the lower and southern edge of
>what was a much larger building.
Not to split hairs:) but to me the 2-story Pavilion is the actual
building which was part of a much larger complex, if what I have read is
correct?
The 1st floor is cut into the hillside and a 2nd floor is built on
top of it.
The 2nd floor is now connected to the summit of the hill which
"was occupied by porticos and gardens, in which fountains and
lightweight architecture were arranged, to judge from the slender walls
which have come to light".
>The emperors had almost limitless means
>at their disposal.
"It's good to be the King" Mel Brooks:-).
>From the sparse info that's been provided,
>the rotating platform was quite light.
If so, it wouldn't need a 4m wide pillar with a number of supporting
arches to hold it up as they seem to be claiming:-).
I'm more mechanically inclined that intellectually inclined (I'm
sure you've noticed:).
With the materials the Romans had and the strength needed to support
a horizonal rotating 50ft disc along with people and furnishing (beds,
tables, etc).
I'd have to go with very heavy.
Bare minimum of 4 25ft strong wooden beams connected to a very strong
hub, at the other end of the beams and underneath somekind of circular
track O (curved wood with an iron surface?) for the stone spheres to
contact with (unless the spheres were located at the hub) and whatever
was used for the disc's flooring which is *alot* of area to cover.
Plus add-on whatever was needed to rotate the disc, possible
cross-bracing between the beams, nails/fastenings, etc.
(I'm going with wooden beams because that seems to be the only sturdy
material they could use to span a horizonal distance of 25ft
unsupported).
>You're probably aware that Gaius
>Scribonius Curio in the first century BCE
>built two temporary wooden theaters in
>Rome which turned on pivots to form an
>amphitheater (Pliny,_NH_36.15.117-20)?
Yes I am and it was pretty cool but 'apples and oranges':).
They could have used a 100(s) slaves pulling on ropes, teams of oxen or
a few of those man-powered cranes with multiple pulleys minus the boom
to open & close that structure.
But what we have with this 50ft rotating dining disc is alot of
weight (esp the beams, hub and floor) with a good amount of
friction/resistance which they believe was powered by water.
Could the force of water from an aqueduct power this horizonal
disc?
Water power is strong and steady but it does have a physical
limit, you could push a 'Smart Car' down a level smooth road with the
water from a firehose but not a truck.
>I'd expect to see a field report
>in_BullCom_soon.
Thanks I'm interested, what is it (website, journal, magazine)?
Regards, Walter
Christopher Ingham
>
> My big question about this site is the purpose for a maze of *alot*
> of small elaborate rooms?
> I think the rooms were part of the art
> that Nero & Co would see as they leasurely strolled by?
> The quirky maze-like lay-out would make the stroll interesting with so
> many different twists & turns each walk would follow a different route.
>
> I find it hard to accept Amanda Claridge's theory that they are small
> seperate dining rooms?
> A banquet where the guests are all isolated into small groups in
> small rooms?
Doubtless the many works of art displayed in the Oppian wing and
elsewhere in the other buildings and of the Domus Aurea gave the place
a museum-like quality. Pliny (_HN_34.84) says, "Of all the works [of
over 200 artists and sculptors] I have enumerated the most famous are
to be found in Rome today, dedicated by the emperor Vespasian in the
Temple of Peace and his other buildings. They were brought to Rome by
Nero as plunder and were displayed throughout the 'sitting
rooms' [_sellaria_] of the Golden House." (Katherine Welch, in_The
Roman Amphitheatre_, 2007, 158, suspects that most of this "plunder"
refers to works taken from the many confiscated estates of elite
families after the Pisonian conspiracy in 65 CE, rather than directly
from Greece.) Still, while the purposes of the rooms in the Oppian
wing are not determined, it is the opinion of a preponderance of
commentators that many of them were for dining. (The significance of
the banqueting rituals of Nero has been the subject of much scholarly
discussion discussion recently; see, e.g., the pertinent sections in
E. Champlin, _Nero_, 2003.) And, as was customary in most elite houses
and villas, sculptures and paintings in the dining and other rooms of
the palace would have been displayed as parts of thematically-arranged
programs intended to stimulate learned discussions among the guests.
The design of the eastern sector of the building itself was radically
innovative. It directly influenced much subsequent Roman architectural
development, as evidenced in such constructions as Domitian's Domus
Augustana on the Palatine and Hadrian's Villa at Tibur. The following
quotation typifies assessments of its significance:
"Few discoveries have made more impact on the history of Roman
architecture than that of the octagonal hall of Nero's Golden House
[ ... which has] assumed the privileged position as the embodiment of
a fundamental breakthrough in design and aesthetics. For many it
represents an abandonment of rectilinear planning and post-and -lintel
construction in favour of a much less inhibited handling of interior
space[....] So unexpected is the design that it has been declared a
'revolution' in architecture"
-- D. Hemsoll, "Reconstructing the Octagonal Dining Room of Nero's
Golden House,"
_Architectural History_32 (1989): 1
> >There are some Othonian remnants in the
> >Oppian wing,
> Thanks for that info, I guess he thought he's be around awhile to enjoy
> it:).
> He is my favorite of the 3 short-termers.
Vitellius, another of the "3 short-termers," evidently resided on the
Palatine, in the part of Nero's palace which shortly later was
transformed into the Domus Tiberiana (Suet._Vit. 15.3).
The means of engineering these rotating constructions has not yet been
adduced, and I'm not qualified to hazard a guess. F. E. Winter
(_Studies in Hellenistic Architecture_,,191) speculates that the
theaters of Curio may have been "a gigantic version of the intricate
gearing discovered in the astronomical calculator recovered from the
Antiythera wreck."
http://books.google.com/books?id=03UNLhtEP1oC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=scribonius+curio+theater+engineering&source=bl&ots=gs9Sj7PrnO&sig=abSkbSU9iHqrlIqPDmKt9z6x-4k&hl=en&ei=RszMSr-VNYySMdjmjTo&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=&f=false
> >I'd expect to see a field report
> >in_BullCom_soon.
> Thanks I'm interested, what is it (website, journal, magazine)?
The_Bullettino della Commissione Archeologica del Comune di Roma_is
perhaps the foremost journal on archaeology in Rome. Its annual
volumes are released in several parts throughout the year, requiring
almost daily consultation in order to keep abreast of new discoveries.
Conventionalized abbreviations for journals in classical studies, btw,
are in "Editorial Policy, Instructions for Contributors, and
Abbreviations,"_American Journal of Archaeology_111 (2007):14-34, also
online:
: http://www.ajaonline.org/index.php?ptype=page&pid=8
_L'Année philologique_is followed for journals not listed in_AJA_:
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/ARTH/lannee.html
Christopher Ingham
Whiskers
[...]
>> Water power is strong and steady but it does have a physical
>> limit, you could push a 'Smart Car' down a level smooth road with the
>> water from a firehose but not a truck.
>
> The means of engineering these rotating constructions has not yet been
> adduced, and I'm not qualified to hazard a guess. F. E. Winter
> (_Studies in Hellenistic Architecture_,,191) speculates that the
> theaters of Curio may have been "a gigantic version of the intricate
> gearing discovered in the astronomical calculator recovered from the
> Antiythera wreck."
> http://books.google.com/books?id=03UNLhtEP1oC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=scribonius+curio+theater+engineering&source=bl&ots=gs9Sj7PrnO&sig=abSkbSU9iHqrlIqPDmKt9z6x-4k&hl=en&ei=RszMSr-VNYySMdjmjTo&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=&f=false
[...]
Most of the easily accessible information about Roman machines, is about
weapons.
By Nero's time the Romans certainly knew how to extract power from water,
using a variety of 'water-mill' designs for grinding grain, cutting stone,
and driving trip-hammers for metal-work and fulling cloth. Ctesibius and
Vitruvius recorded fairly reliable mechanical water-clocks centuries
earlier. A water-clock on the scale of a large water-mill isn't
inconceivable.
Muscle power was relatively cheap, so it's not impossible that the rotating
room was simply pushed or pulled by main force, at a rate regulated by
reference to water-clocks and sundials. But it would be nice to find a
big water-wheel, or battery of water-wheels, and a mechanical transmission
geared to the rotating room.
As I pointed out earlier, the room would only need to move by an inch or
so a minute at the outer edge (assuming a diameter of 50 feet). That's
not an impossible target - consider the feats of single strong-men and
teams at pulling several tons of lorry a good few yards in a few minutes.
Winches and pulleys were known in Nero's time, and would provide a useful
mechanical advantage whether the motive power were muscle or water.
Poetic Justice
>constantly revolved day and night, like the
>heavens".
>"The main dining- room was circular, and
>its roof revolved day and night, in time
>with the sky".
>{{The friction at the pivot and at the stone
>spheres caused by the weight of this floor
>would need quite alot of force to keep this
>in motion?}}
Whiskers wrote;
>Ball-bearings reduce friction very greatly,
>particularly if they are polished and
>greased.
Yes, today they work unbelievable well but (and I am just assuming)
we are possibly talking stone ball-bearings slowly rolling within
something to hold it in position [O].
With the rolling top sections supporting a rotating floor which would
need a strong track like iron or stone to prevent wear.
I'm assuming because they ID'ed these as "stone spheres" vs "stone
balls" that they are quite large and supported alot of weight?
The stone could have been polished to reduce friction but I think
grease/lubricant would only help reduce friction in what it was seated
within and then only the sides of the sphere as it rotated.
Because the weight on the top and bottom of the sphere would have been
immense?
>Moving at one rotation in 24 hours isn't
>exactly fast, either, so noise and vibration
>may not have been significant.
I put the 2 Suetonius translations in this thread at the top ('roof' is
wrong).
If the rotation was "in time with the sky" vs "like the heavens" I
don't think dining and chatting guests would notice a 1.3in/min-6.5ft/hr
movement of the floor unless the circular room was immense.
And why follow the sky inside a building even if it had windows
with a 360* view and an oculus?
Would you really notice anything while occupied with dining and
chit-chat?
I just think to make this rotating dining room a cool novelty ya
gotta go faster:).
Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something cool on the circular
ceiling like a 360* sky with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall painting,
sculptures, etc.
Yes no significant noise or vibration at 1 revolution per day but at
say 0.25 RPM it would likely be noticeable?
>Cloth or leather padding on the 'rails'
>would make things quieter, too.
With massive weight and they're saying it ran 24/7 they would wear-out
in no time.
>{{If the water from the aqueduct powered
>it, I would guess that it required all or
>most of the water to be channeled to this
>device which of course is still clean and
>can be used again?}}
>One would think so. The volume of water
>required may not have been all that great,
>particularly if the movement was in fact
>intermittant (like a mechanical clock).
I thought of something like that for a 24hr rotation, like an extremely
slow water-wheel using the slowly accumulating water for its torque.
But I think it would either have too be very huge or smaller, faster
and geared-down.
I don't think it would have been technically possible for them to
gear-down something to 1 revolution per day.
Even if faster like .25 RPM could the wooden gears the Romans used be
strong enough for the weight?
>Muscle-power may have been involved
>too.
Slave-power sounds like a great idea to be used when they were
dining but the rotating claim 24/7 seems to point to an aqueduct water
power source.
>{{Anyway I just wish they would elaborate
>more on the mechanics of the find, a wide
>pillar and 4 stone balls is rather vague.}}
>They don't mention any likely mechanical
>or hydraulic mechanisms. It's probable
>that timber, lead, and other re-usable
>parts would have been removed long ago.
I should have said "evidence of the mechanics" like; Water channels,
wear & tear marks, holes in the top of the pillar where it pivoted, etc.
>I think there are records of the Roman
>Colosseum having been flooded for 'sea
>battles';
Yes, but there is a pro & con camp.
The official Colosseum tour I took said "No" but they are just human
audioguides who don't like questions or explaining things in their 45min
boring tour.
Also not mentioned in the official guidebook.
When Titus opened the Colosseum for the Games the cellar (I forget
the correct term) wasn't dug-out yet.
The Colosseum was supplied water from a branch of an aqueduct so
it has the water.
And if they blocked-off the 2 main gates plus a smaller doorway or
2 they could likely flood it?
I've read I think on the 'Lacus Curtius' website that an
archaeologist(?) claims the water could reach the depth of almost 1
meter which would be plenty for small flat-bottomed ships.
Good drainage in and around the structure so I doubt draining a
meter of water would be a problem at the end of the event.
>..they also had all sorts of theatrical
>machines for 'special effects'.
That seemed to be one of the big crowd pleasers:).
The elevators to the (32?) trapdoors in the arena's floor were powered
by counterweights which were lifted by the many man-powered winches in
the cellar. The marble blocks with a center hole to support the bottom
of the wooden turning posts are all around the cellar's floor.
Plus I believe they had a couple? of large long ramps which were
lowered into the cellar also.
And there is also evidence for a major hydraulic lifting mechanism at
both ends of the cellar.
>Stone spheres seem to have been used
>for decoration, apart from anything else.
The large one in Capua amphitheater's cellar and in a long narrow pit
on a track IIRC definitely had a practical purpose (sorry no picture:).
>I gather from various web sites that the
>arena in Capua has largely been stripped
>of its fancy stonework but that fragments
>are scattered about.
Yes, the main attractions of this site are the arena which you can
walk around (reconstructed floor with the trapdoor openings) and the
arena's cellar.
It has a modern museum on site but it is mostly geared for school
children.
With a combo-ticket the city also includes a very nice Mithraeum
and a very interesting museum.
The tourist draw to the amphitheater is of course Sparticus but
this structure was built during Augustus' reign.
And the Gladiator School where the revolt started is a few/many Km
outside the city. But of course there is a History Channel-like
documentary that shows the Gladiator School in the ruins right in front
of the amphitheater:-).
Regards, Walter
Christopher Ingham
> don't think dining and chatting guests would notice a 1.3in/min-6.5ft/hr
> movement of the floor unless the circular room was immense.
I'm just speculating here -- and we don't know what remains to be
discovered -- but perhaps the mechanism was similar to a water mill
with overshot wheel, with the floor substituting for what in a water
mill would be the revolving stone:
http://books.google.com/books?http://books.google.com/books?id=Q4aVmw1llwYC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=Where+the+water+supply+was+too+small+for+anything&source=bl&ots=OiMN0AnXEE&sig=QgWSsJ0j-4h1bBwyAscJmHvFY-U&hl=en&ei=KDfSSrGhEIuGMpvRtZQD&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Where%20the%20water%20supply%20was%20too%20small%20for%20anything&f=false
> And why follow the sky inside a building even if it had windows
> with a 360* view and an oculus?
> Would you really notice anything while occupied with dining and
> chit-chat?
> Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something cool on the circular
> ceiling like a 360* sky with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall painting,
> sculptures, etc.
It was probably one of the innumerable calculated effects of the Domus
Aurea intended to emphasize the the place as the abode of the Sun God;
specifically in this instance a display of a Neronian variety of Sol-
Helios ideology analogous perhaps to what Nero on one occasion
exhibited in the Theater of Pompey:
"On the notorious Golden Day in 66, a sensation was created in the
Theatre of Pompey when, according to Dio, 'the awnings stretched
overhead to keep off the sun were purple and in the centre of them was
an embroidered figure of Nero driving a chariot, with golden stars
gleaming all around him' -- an image preserved on a fragmentary relief
showing Nero's head radiate against a background of stars. When the
audience squinted up at the sun, they saw instead Nero himself, and
the stars around him that his chariot was a heavenly one" (E.
Champlin, "God and Man in the Golden House," in M. Cima and E. La
Rocca, eds.,_Horti romani_, 1998, 337).
> <snip>
> >I think there are records of the Roman
> >Colosseum having been flooded for 'sea
> >battles';
> Yes, but there is a pro & con camp.
> The official Colosseum tour I took said "No" but they are just human
> audioguides who don't like questions or explaining things in their 45min
> boring tour.
> Also not mentioned in the official guidebook.
> When Titus opened the Colosseum for the Games the cellar (I forget
> the correct term) wasn't dug-out yet.
> The Colosseum was supplied water from a branch of an aqueduct so
> it has the water.
> And if they blocked-off the 2 main gates plus a smaller doorway or
> 2 they could likely flood it?
> I've read I think on the 'Lacus Curtius' website that an
> archaeologist(?) claims the water could reach the depth of almost 1
> meter which would be plenty for small flat-bottomed ships.
> Good drainage in and around the structure so I doubt draining a
> meter of water would be a problem at the end of the event.
Titus supposedly staged a mock naval battle as part of the 100-day
inauguration festivities of the Colosseum (Mart._Spect._34), erected
on the site of the lake (_stagnum_) of Nero's Golden House, which was
supplied by the Neronian branch of the Aqua Claudia. Whether any naval
shows actually were ever staged there is questionable, since there is
no clear evidence of the possibility of such use in the wall
structures or interior hydraulic system; more likely Titus' show was
staged in the Naumachia Augusti in the Transtiberim region of the city
(K. Welch,_The Roman Amphitheatre_, 2007, 318n.66; L. Lombardi, "The
Water System of the Colosseum," in A. Gabucci, ed.,_The Colosseum_,
2001, 236). Domitian's construction of the hypogeum of the
amphitheater a short time later, as you note, would have brought a
permanent end to any further (purported) flooding of the arena.
> <snip>
> >Stone spheres seem to have been used
> >for decoration, apart from anything else.
> The large one in Capua amphitheater's cellar and in a long narrow pit
> on a track IIRC definitely had a practical purpose (sorry no picture:).
The stone spheres discovered on the Palatine probably served primarily
to stabilize the floor of the banquet hall, if my conjecture that
there was a modified water mill mechanism is correct
Christopher Ingham
Christopher Ingham
http://books.google.com/books?id=Q4aVmw1llwYC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=Where+the+water+supply+was+too+small+for+anything&source=bl&ots=OiMN0AnXEE&sig=QgWSsJ0j-4h1bBwyAscJmHvFY-U&hl=en&ei=KDfSSrGhEIuGMpvRtZQD&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Where%20the%20water%20supply%20was%20too%20small%20for%20anything&f=false
Whiskers
>>"The main banquet hall was circular and
>>constantly revolved day and night, like the
>>heavens".
>
>>"The main dining- room was circular, and
>>its roof revolved day and night, in time
>>with the sky".
>
>
>>{{The friction at the pivot and at the stone
>>spheres caused by the weight of this floor
>>would need quite alot of force to keep this
>>in motion?}}
>
> Whiskers wrote;
>
>>Ball-bearings reduce friction very greatly,
>>particularly if they are polished and
>>greased.
>
> Yes, today they work unbelievable well but (and I am just assuming)
> we are possibly talking stone ball-bearings slowly rolling within
> something to hold it in position [O].
> With the rolling top sections supporting a rotating floor which would
> need a strong track like iron or stone to prevent wear.
>
> I'm assuming because they ID'ed these as "stone spheres" vs "stone
> balls" that they are quite large and supported alot of weight?
The implication of the report I've seen is that the "spherical mechanism"
is large.
> The stone could have been polished to reduce friction but I think
> grease/lubricant would only help reduce friction in what it was seated
> within and then only the sides of the sphere as it rotated.
> Because the weight on the top and bottom of the sphere would have been
> immense?
The pressure at each contact point depends on how many 'ball bearings'
and other supports there were. It has been suggested here that the moving
floor may have floated on water, in which case the load would be evenly
distributed over the whole of the submerged area - and the moving floor
would not need to be self-supporting, so could be a lot simpler and
lighter - essentially, a basic raft. That arrangement would also make it
possible for a very simple flow of water around the chamber to carry the
floating floor with it.
High precision of time-keeping wouldn't be easy, but there were no
high-precision time-keeping systems at the time anyway.
The "spherical mechanism" then only needs to prevent the floating floor
from tilting too much - and if the 'ball bearings' were submerged, that
would provide some lubrication (and the water would support some of the
weight of the balls too, reducing pressure and wear).
But if the floor was floating, the need for large stone spheres is
difficult to understand. Three or four cart wheels attached to the moving
floor would serve to prevent 'capsize'.
>
>>Moving at one rotation in 24 hours isn't
>>exactly fast, either, so noise and vibration
>>may not have been significant.
>
>
> I put the 2 Suetonius translations in this thread at the top ('roof' is
> wrong).
>
> If the rotation was "in time with the sky" vs "like the heavens" I
> don't think dining and chatting guests would notice a 1.3in/min-6.5ft/hr
> movement of the floor unless the circular room was immense.
>
> And why follow the sky inside a building even if it had windows
> with a 360* view and an oculus?
> Would you really notice anything while occupied with dining and
> chit-chat?
To display ingenuity and mastery of the heavens? Rotating restaurants are
not unknown in the present - 'novelty' seems to be an adequate impulse for
creating them (although often not enough to keep them moving, or
profitable).
> I just think to make this rotating dining room a cool novelty ya
> gotta go faster:).
>
> Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something cool on the circular
> ceiling like a 360* sky with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall painting,
> sculptures, etc.
>
>
> Yes no significant noise or vibration at 1 revolution per day but at
> say 0.25 RPM it would likely be noticeable?
Until it all fell apart. Did Nero want an impressive toy to entertain his
guests in a cultured and gracious manner, or did he want to scare them on
a fairground ride?
>
>>Cloth or leather padding on the 'rails'
>>would make things quieter, too.
>
> With massive weight and they're saying it ran 24/7 they would wear-out
> in no time.
<shrug> I don't think expense was a major concern - indeed, massive
expense was rather the point of the whole 'Golden House' project.
[...]
Poetic Justice
>bottom of the sphere would have been
>immense?}}
Whiskers wrote;
>The pressure at each contact point
>depends on how many 'ball bearings' and
>other supports there were.
Just focusing on the stone spheres; Yes more would distribute the weight
but I don't think they would help in cutting-down friction/resistance of
the floor's motion mainly because we're talking still about stone balls
and not a 20C hi-tech steel bearing.
>It has been suggested here that the
>moving floor may have floated on water,
Yes that was my guess:-).
>in which case the load would be evenly
>distributed over the whole of the
>submerged area
True.
>- and the moving floor would not need to
>be self-supporting, so could be a lot
>simpler and lighter - essentially, a basic
>raft.
True.
>That arrangement would also make it
>possible for a very simple flow of water
>around the chamber to carry the floating
>floor with it.
True.
>High precision of time-keeping wouldn't
>be easy, but there were no high-precision
>time-keeping systems at the time anyway.
If it was to follow the Heavens 24hr cycle you'd want it in the ballpark
at least but yes it wouldn't need to be exact.
>The "spherical mechanism" then only
>needs to prevent the floating floor from
>tilting too much -
That was my guess also.
>and if the 'ball bearings' were submerged,
>that would provide some lubrication (and
>the water would support some of the
>weight of the balls too, reducing pressure
>and wear).
Plus contact would be light and occasional.
>But if the floor was floating, the need for
>large stone spheres is difficult to
>understand.
>Three or four cart wheels attached to the
>moving floor would serve to prevent
>'capsize'.
I thought of that also, so much easier, *alot* less resistance and
vibration & noise probably eliminated.
>{{And why follow the sky inside a building
>even if it had windows with a 360* view
>and an oculus?
>Would you really notice anything while
>occupied with dining and chit-chat?}}
>To display ingenuity and mastery of the
>heavens?
But if you can't notice *anything* different at 1 revolution per day
during this social function, I don't see the point?
>Rotating restaurants are not unknown in
>the present
Yes and the diners *see* the rotation which is the novelty.
>- 'novelty' seems to be an adequate
>impulse for creating them
Agree.
>{{I just think to make this rotating dining
>room a cool novelty ya gotta go faster:).
>Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something
>cool on the circular ceiling like a 360* sky
>with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall
>painting, sculptures, etc.
>Yes no significant noise or vibration at 1
>revolution per day but at say 0.25 RPM it
>would likely be noticeable?}}
>Until it all fell apart.
Why? @ 1 revolution every 4mins?
The speed is like walking 156ft in 4min which is extremely slow.
>Did Nero want an impressive toy to
>entertain his guests in a cultured and
>gracious manner,
Hard to entertain them if they can't notice movement with the rotation @
1 per 24hrs.
>or did he want to scare them on a
>fairground ride?
With 1 turn every 4mins, ya ain't gonna be selling tickets for that
ride:).
>Cloth or leather padding on the 'rails'
>would make things quieter, too.
>{{With massive weight and they're saying
>it ran 24/7 they would wear-out in no
>time.}}
><shrug> I don't think expense was a major
>concern
Neither do I. It's the down time for no reason, *if* the stone balls
supported the massive weight and it ran 24/7 it might be a daily fix.
And Romans tended to build things to last.
Plus there might be a reason that it ran 24/7 (if that's true) and
shutting-down for maintainance might be a major hassle?
>- indeed, massive expense was rather the
>point of the whole 'Golden House' project.
Yes it was and somewhat typical.
I recall Julius Caesar built a villa I believe in the Naples area and
when it was finished or very close to being finished he had it torn
down.
And the reason was just to show-off his wealth.
Regards, Walter
Whiskers
>>{{Because the weight on the top and
>>bottom of the sphere would have been
>>immense?}}
>
> Whiskers wrote;
>>The pressure at each contact point
>>depends on how many 'ball bearings' and
>>other supports there were.
>
>
> Just focusing on the stone spheres; Yes more would distribute the weight
> but I don't think they would help in cutting-down friction/resistance of
> the floor's motion mainly because we're talking still about stone balls
> and not a 20C hi-tech steel bearing.
Even so, the reduction in friction compared with a 'plain bearing' would
be very considerable.
>>It has been suggested here that the
>>moving floor may have floated on water,
>
> Yes that was my guess:-).
>
>
>>in which case the load would be evenly
>>distributed over the whole of the
>>submerged area
>
> True.
>
>
>>- and the moving floor would not need to
>>be self-supporting, so could be a lot
>>simpler and lighter - essentially, a basic
>>raft.
>
> True.
>
>>That arrangement would also make it
>>possible for a very simple flow of water
>>around the chamber to carry the floating
>>floor with it.
>
> True.
>
>>High precision of time-keeping wouldn't
>>be easy, but there were no high-precision
>>time-keeping systems at the time anyway.
>
> If it was to follow the Heavens 24hr cycle you'd want it in the ballpark
> at least but yes it wouldn't need to be exact.
A slave to regulate the water flow to keep the thing in step with the sun
or stars would be adequate.
>
>>The "spherical mechanism" then only
>>needs to prevent the floating floor from
>>tilting too much -
>
> That was my guess also.
>
>>and if the 'ball bearings' were submerged,
>>that would provide some lubrication (and
>>the water would support some of the
>>weight of the balls too, reducing pressure
>>and wear).
>
> Plus contact would be light and occasional.
>
>
>>But if the floor was floating, the need for
>>large stone spheres is difficult to
>>understand.
>>Three or four cart wheels attached to the
>>moving floor would serve to prevent
>>'capsize'.
>
> I thought of that also, so much easier, *alot* less resistance and
> vibration & noise probably eliminated.
Perhaps the heavy stone spheres were there solely to make an impressive
noise?
>>{{And why follow the sky inside a building
>>even if it had windows with a 360* view
>>and an oculus?
>>Would you really notice anything while
>>occupied with dining and chit-chat?}}
>
>>To display ingenuity and mastery of the
>>heavens?
>
> But if you can't notice *anything* different at 1 revolution per day
> during this social function, I don't see the point?
This would be a Roman party, not a quick nip into a fast-food joint; the
guests would expect to be there for hours, if not days. I think that
making a whole room move in time with the sun and stars would be far more
impressive than just making something spin around.
Ancient Romans would have been familiar with the movements of the stars,
and would be able to see them very clearly most nights. A room that moved
so that a star or the sun rose and set in one window, and never moved
beyond that window, would be very notable, demonstrating not only great
wealth and engineering skill but also leading-edge astronomical and
mathematical knowledge.
>>Rotating restaurants are not unknown in
>>the present
>
>
> Yes and the diners *see* the rotation which is the novelty.
>
>
>>- 'novelty' seems to be an adequate
>>impulse for creating them
>
> Agree.
>
>
>>{{I just think to make this rotating dining
>>room a cool novelty ya gotta go faster:).
>>Say 1 revolution in 4min, paint something
>>cool on the circular ceiling like a 360* sky
>>with day-dusk-night-dawn add wall
>>painting, sculptures, etc.
>>Yes no significant noise or vibration at 1
>>revolution per day but at say 0.25 RPM it
>>would likely be noticeable?}}
>
>>Until it all fell apart.
>
>
> Why? @ 1 revolution every 4mins?
> The speed is like walking 156ft in 4min which is extremely slow.
But we have a very large mass of room and machine and people and furniture
and cups of drink and the 'driving-water', all seperately exhibiting the
phenomenon of 'momentum' (= inertia). The faster you make it move, the
harder it is to control and the greater the friction, vibration, and wear.
>
>>Did Nero want an impressive toy to
>>entertain his guests in a cultured and
>>gracious manner,
>
>
> Hard to entertain them if they can't notice movement with the rotation @
> 1 per 24hrs.
I think they would have noticed that and been very impressed by it.
>>or did he want to scare them on a
>>fairground ride?
>
>
> With 1 turn every 4mins, ya ain't gonna be selling tickets for that
> ride:).
But people are going to experience all sorts of weird effects. Not a
roller-coaster, certainly, but a very strange environment.
>>Cloth or leather padding on the 'rails'
>>would make things quieter, too.
>>{{With massive weight and they're saying
>>it ran 24/7 they would wear-out in no
>>time.}}
>
>
>><shrug> I don't think expense was a major
>>concern
>
> Neither do I. It's the down time for no reason, *if* the stone balls
> supported the massive weight and it ran 24/7 it might be a daily fix.
> And Romans tended to build things to last.
> Plus there might be a reason that it ran 24/7 (if that's true) and
> shutting-down for maintainance might be a major hassle?
Unless bouyancy water had to be drained for access, at one revolution per
day lengths of padding for the bearings could be replaced while the thing
was movinng.
>
>>- indeed, massive expense was rather the
>>point of the whole 'Golden House' project.
>
> Yes it was and somewhat typical.
> I recall Julius Caesar built a villa I believe in the Naples area and
> when it was finished or very close to being finished he had it torn
> down.
> And the reason was just to show-off his wealth.
> Regards, Walter
... plus the likelyhood that Nero was more or less insane. While he was
mostly benevolent towards the plebians and had military success, he was
'eccentric' and it was dangerous to be close to him. His extravagance
eventually turned the ruling classes against him.
(He was also emperor when governor Paulinus massacred most of Britain's
Driuds and defeated the rebellion of Boudicca, which doesn't make him more
popular with me!)
Odysseus
Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> This would be a Roman party, not a quick nip into a fast-food joint; the
> guests would expect to be there for hours, if not days. I think that
> making a whole room move in time with the sun and stars would be far more
> impressive than just making something spin around.
>
> Ancient Romans would have been familiar with the movements of the stars,
> and would be able to see them very clearly most nights. A room that moved
> so that a star or the sun rose and set in one window, and never moved
> beyond that window, would be very notable, demonstrating not only great
> wealth and engineering skill but also leading-edge astronomical and
> mathematical knowledge.
More practically, for a banquet that started in the afternoon, one
wouldn't have to adjust the blinds (or whatever), or shift one's
position, to get in or out of the sun: shadows would lengthen but keep
their orientation throughout the event.
--
Odysseus
deowll
"Poetic Justice" <paradi...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12521-4AD...@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net...
>{{Because the weight on the top and
>bottom of the sphere would have been
>immense?}}
Whiskers wrote;
>The pressure at each contact point
>depends on how many 'ball bearings' and
>other supports there were.
Just focusing on the stone spheres; Yes more would distribute the weight
but I don't think they would help in cutting-down friction/resistance of
the floor's motion mainly because we're talking still about stone balls
and not a 20C hi-tech steel bearing.
>It has been suggested here that the
>moving floor may have floated on water,
Yes that was my guess:-).
_____________________________________________________
Nero had the wealth to have floated in on a pool of olive oil. This would
have reduced the friction. Bronze or granite balls running in grooves would
have taken care of any tendency to tilt or even a wooden wheel with a steel
rim or six. He could have had slaves turn it and they could have largely
done it by eyeballing the sky at night and using a very primitive sun dial
during the day. You don't have to get all that complex here. Any good Roman
military engineer should have been able to pull this off.
________________________________________________-
Anders
like to bring the following to your attention: Walter (Poetic Justice) asked
about the translation in alt.language.�latin 3 days ago and got this answer
from Ed Cryer:
"Praecipua cenationum rotunda, quae perpetuo diebus ac noctibus vice mundi
circumageretur."
It seems that the translation "in time with the sky" stems from Robert
Graves' 1957 version of Suetonius' The Twelve Caesars, Penguin 1957. I'll
give his translation here. You'll find the exact wording repeated all over
the Net. "The main dining-room was circular, and its roof revolved slowly,
day and night, in time with the sky."
Unless Graves had a different Latin text there are two mistakes here;
translations of "vice mundi" and "perpetuo". I'd add a third; "mundi" should
be "world". I suspect Graves slipped up because he didn't know that anybody
in Suetonius' age knew about our planet revolving. He'd not heard of
Aristarchus of Samos. Here's my translation; "The main dining room was
circular, and it rotated constantly day and night like the world."
Ed
Translation word-by-word: "The circular main dining room, which perpetually
days and nights went round like the world." - The meaning is the same.
Personally I think that it doesn't matter, whether the earth or the universe
revolves; the outcome to Suetonius would be the same. But Graves - like many
others - obviously didn't believe that Suetonius' description was accurate,
hence the 'interpretation' instead of an exact translation.
Pertaining the exact speed, I Googled "revolving restaurant" and found a
little info: most modern revolving restaurants take ~1 turn per hour. They
are a good deal larger in diameter than Nero's, but the speed sounds
reasonable. I don't think it was ever intended as a merry-go-round, mainly
because it would cause dishes and other tableware to slide off the tables.
If the floor was floating, I think Suetonius would have mentioned it, even
if it was drained in his days; on the other hand the 'perpetual movement'
indicates that there was some kind of non-human force turning it, which
would be noteworthy too; maybe we'll just have to settle with that Suetonius
wrote a biography and not a book of engineering. If the stone spheres were
running in a grooved rail of very hard wood, e.g. Golden-Chain (Laburnum),
and the groove was kept well-oiled, it would have reduced the friction
considerably, so the wear would be minimal - maybe an annual replacement of
the rails would suffice.
Just my two cents,
Anders.
Anders
Can anyone provide a link to a plan of the entire Domus Aurea (afa it is
known)?
So far I have only been able to find plans of the Oppian wing; there must be
more out there...
Best regards
Anders.
Christopher Ingham
Most commentators infer from the vague descriptions in Suetonius,
Tacitus, and Martial concerning the all-encompassing extent of the
Golden House that it was a series of contiguous properties comprised
of all the imperial domus on the Palatine, the valley of the (future)
Colosseum and adjacent hillsides, and the Gardens of Maecenas on the
Esquiline.
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/romanciv/artandarchitecture/nero%27s.jpg
In this reconstruction looking east the NE Palatine is shown in the
upper right. Immediately to the left is seen the porticoed Neronian
monumentalization of the Sacra Via leading to the atrium of the Golden
House, where stands the Colossus of Nero. The stagnum is seen in the
extreme upper right (though it was probably rectangular).
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.indiana.edu/~class2/c102/net_id/images/L139.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.indiana.edu/~class2/c102/&usg=__vC2lhPzPpYo_bxf5R1s6fw8fw6w=&h=400&w=554&sz=134&hl=en&start=1&sig2=CS3dyyC5wBU9PW_9QH4XnA&um=1&tbnid=dFztCUPOZMy_VM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnero%2Bgolden%2Bhouse%2Batrium%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4HPIB_en___US216%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=J6XsSoPtGYykMOX79YMM
Edward Champlin, however, in two extended essays ("God and Man in the
Golden House," in M. Cima and E. La Rocca, eds.,_Horti romani: Atti
del Convegno Internazionale Roma, 4-6 maggio 1995_, Rome, 1998,
333-44; and_Nero_, Cambridge, MA, 2003, 178-209) argues that the
extent of the Domus Aurea has been "greatly exaggerated," and should
include only the Oppian (a spur of the Esquiline) wing and the valley
of the Colosseum, where was located Nero's artificial lake (_stagnum_)
and surrounding parks, all of which the Oppian palace, at a precise
east-west orientation, looked down upon. He builds his case based on a
careful contextualizing of events in Nero's reign and especially of
the solar ideology which preoccupied Nero in his final years; also,
the only details about the Domus Aurea which Suetonius provides
concern topographical features exclusive to this precise location.
http://books.google.com/books?id=30Wa-l9B5IoC&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=One+House++As+in+private+relationships+the+closest+ties+were+the+strongest,&source=bl&ots=nw0ibhWZqx&sig=HTPoUUJpE4ZP9I2_VNS1rDShC_I&hl=en&ei=gqHsSoLtMZD0NdWDwf0B&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=One%20House%20%20As%20in%20private%20relationships%20the%20closest%20ties%20were%20the%20strongest%2C&f=false
Regardless of whether the Domus Aurea was totally humongous or just
large, the properties in the putative humongous version were
nevertheless all still part of the imperial estate. These components
have all been investigated to varying degrees in many separate
studies, most of which unfortunately are not available online. The
most informed (reasonably up-to-date, in Italian) with extensive
bibliographies are to be found in the various subsections of the entry
"Domus Aurea," in_Lexicon Topographicum Urbis Romae_, vol.2, 1995,
("Domus Aurea," "vestibulum," "area dello stagnum," "porticus
triplices miliariae," "il palazzo sull'Esquilino," "complesso del
Palatino"), 49-64, by Alessandro Cassatella, Stefania Panella,
Emanuele Papi, and Laura Fabbrini (also addenda to the subsections on
the Palatine and triple portico in vol. 5, 1999, 244). See also the
entry "Domus Tiberiana," 89-93, in the same volume, by Clemens Krause.
Among more extensive studies, I'll just mention Maura Medri, "Suet.,
Nero, 31.1: Elementi e proposte per la ricostruzione del progetto
della Domus Aurea" (in C. Panella, ed.,_Meta Sudans I: Un'area sacra
in Palatio e la valle del Colosseo prima e dopo Nerone_, Rome, 1996,
165-88), and Clemens Krause et al., in R. Locher and B. Sigel,
eds.,_Domus Tiberiana: Nuove ricerche -- Studi di restauro_(Zurich,
1985).
Much research of course is ongoing. In 2004, for example, the
Università degli Studi di Roma “La Sapienza” investigated a porticoed
road at the NE sector of the Palatine which led to the atrium of the
Domus Aurea on the Velian and continued south to a terrace supported
by vaulted corridors.
Christopher Ingham
Anders
Thank you for the detailed answer and the links; they were very
enlightening. Champlin has many interesting thoughts about Nero�s public
life, but if they really have found the revolving dining room on the
Palatine, the Domus Aurea was apparently �totally humongous�.
I hope you�ll keep us informed when more details become available.
Anders.
Poetic Justice
located to tourists.
Repubblica.it has a short slideshow of it http://tinyurl.com/ygzr39q
Also in Photo 10 outlined in the grass like backwards 'L's _| _| _| are
the remains of Nero's Porticoes that are shown in the link Christopher
provided www.utexas.edu/courses/romanciv/artandarchitecture/nero%27s.jpg
Regards, Walter