Who Wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?
crunch
"But hearing the dramatic recitation, Peleg [Israeli archaeologist],
40, rolls his eyes. 'There is no connection to the Essenes at this
site,' he tells me as a hawk circles above in the warming air. He says
the scrolls had nothing to do with the settlement. Evidence for a
religious community here, he says, is unconvincing. He believes,
rather, that Jews fleeing the Roman rampage hurriedly stuffed the
documents into the Qumran caves for safekeeping. After digging at the
site for ten years, he also believes that Qumran was originally a fort
designed to protect a growing Jewish population from threats to the
east. Later, it was converted into a pottery factory to serve nearby
towns like Jericho, he says."
Yet -
Answers to questions
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2747
"Barbara mentioned that the steps down into the cisterns indicates
immersion baptism. It well may but I have problems with this because
water at Qumran would be worth more than gold. I see the steps being
necessary for access and maintenance. If I was living there I would
not want anyone taking a ducking in the water no matter how much the
need for baptism. Also while I was in Jerusalem I visited an
excavation under a convent that led down to a beautiful stepped
cistern full of clear water said to be of Roman vintage.
Reply: The water in the Qumran stepped cisterns was not for drinking.
The deep round well, of a quite different shape, supplied enough
drinking water for the 150 people who lived there. The well could
easily be covered with a roof to prevent evaporation. It was sheltered
within a group of roofed buildings. In addition to the well, the
aqueduct leading from the wady Qumran fed seven huge rectangular
cisterns, each the size of a suburban swimming pool or more. They lay
in open space. They were far more than were needed for drinking water,
and too big to be covered to prevent evaporation. The Essenes at 11 am
each day came in from working outside in the heat and "bathed their
bodies in cold water" (J.W. 2, 129). That is, they had a refreshing
swim. Since the swim also prepared them for their sacred noon meal,
for which they dressed in cool white linen robes, it was equivalent to
a purificatory bath, taken every day. Men of different grades used
different cisterns, since those of high grade must not make physical
contact with low grades. "A senior if but touched by a junior must
take a bath, as after contact with an alien."(J.W. 2, 150).
Consequently, the baths were also used for occasions of initiation,
expressing repentance, washing away sins, and a change to a new life.
Each was used for a different grade, the lowest in the largest cistern
outside the south-west corner, the highest in those nearest to the
meal vestry and sanctuary. Any diagram of the Qumran grounds will show
you where they were placed, and the way the aqueduct fed all of them.
It ran once a year, after the heavy winter rains, filling up the water
systems for a year. It is now one of the most prominent features in
the ruins - running a long distance along the ground, about a cubit
wide, with raised sides of stones."
-----
Trouble in Qumran Archaeology and DSS Scholarship
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2592
"The claim that Qumran was not a monastic settlement was one of the
diversionary tactics.
De Vaux uncovered buildings that would not house a large number of
people,
yet contained seven large rectangular cisterns, some bigger than a
suburban
swimming pool. You go right down into them and the top is way above
your
head, as I can testify.They had steps leading down to them, grouped in
sets
of three, not simply for ordinary entering. For actual drinking water,
a
deep round well - a different shape - was sufficient for the needs of
numbers of people. Everything about the cisterns suggested a rite of
baptismal immersion. Such water washings were characteristic of the
Essenes
as described by Josephus, and as referred to in the Scrolls - they
were used
as a means of admission and of exclusion of heretics (1QS 5:12-15).
In the outside room called the 'pantry', attached to a long east-west
hall
on the outside of the old Israelite wall, were found stacks of simple
bowls
used for food, made of the same clay as other utensils. A potter's
kiln was
found, showing that the pottery was manufactured on the site. Jars
that
have been said to be made for perfume were for spices and plants used
for
medical purposes - the same sort of jars containing 100 pounds of aloe
leaves, and jars of the resin myrrh , that we have been discussing
recently.
High writing desks with the remains of inkwells, with the ink dried in
them,
were found in the large square building, having fallen down from a
floor
above. In caves in the cliffs rising at the back of the plateau were
found
the Dead Sea Scrolls, written in a professional scribal hand. They had
clearly been produced at the writing desks, in a scriptorium. The
cliff
where they were found is about 5 minutes walk away from the building,
across
the neck of land that joins the cliff to the plateau. It is absurd to
claim,
as has been done, that the scrolls had nothing to do with the
building.
Everything pointed to a building corresponding to the monastic
lifestyle of
the Essenes, as described by Josephus. The Scrolls speak of practices
that
distinguished the Essenes from others - daily sacred meal of bread and
wine,
community of property, baptisms for initiation, a celibate lifestyle.
The
graveyard contained over 1000 graves, of males, with one small group
of
females. They are explained by the second order of Essenes described
by
Josephus. The dynasts had to have wives.
Pliny writes in his Natural History, 5, 73, "On the west side of the
Dead
Sea, but out of range of the noxious exhalations of the coast, is the
solitary tribe of the Essenes . it has no women and has renounced all
sexual
desire, has no money, and has only palm-trees for company.:" He goes
on
"Lying below these (infra hos) was formerly the town of Engedi, second
only
to Jerusalem in the fertility of its land and in its groves of palm-
trees .
Next comes Masada, a fortress on a rock ."
The phrase 'infra hos' has been the bone seized by those who resist
the
connection of Qumran with Essenes. When Hirschfeld, exploring sites in
the
Wilderness of Judea, found the remains of a small set of adjoining
rooms on
the height above Engedi, it was argued that Pliny meant that Essenes
lived
on the height above Engedi, and below them on the plain was the town.
Engedi
is half way down the west coast of the Dead Sea, while Qumran is at
its
north-west corner. In reply, it has been argued that 'infra' is used
in the
sense of 'south of'. Pliny is picking out three equidistant places.
The Essenes were long known to have been a kind of unorthodox Judaism
that
was similar to early Christianity. The French scholar Renan said in
the 19th
century that Christianity was 'un essénisme réussit' (an Essenism that
had
succeeded). That concept was unpopular with both fundamentalist
Christians
who believed that it had all been directly revealed from heaven, and
with
orthodox Jews, who would not admit any connection between Judaism and
Christianity. The two groups allied on this matter.
An attempt was made to argue that Qumran was merely a manufacturing
site,
or, in one case, a lodging place for travellers coming up the Dead Sea
by
boat. All the information listed above was simply ignored. Vermes
wrote
derisively of this latter case, of 'the Qumran Hilton'.
The numerous coins found on the site are not a contra-indication, but
go
with the Copper Scroll. While it was deserted after the earthquake of
31 BC,
Herod, who was collecting money from the Diaspora for his building
projects
(4Q159), used it to store the enormous amount of money that was coming
in.
You will have noticed at the beginning of the quoted article that
mainstream
scholars are accepting the Essene identification, which means also the
monastic identification. In a recent documentary film, Michael Stone,
a
Jewish Australian who was a leading Qumran scholar in Israel, said
that it
is now accepted that Qumran was Essene.
Norman Golb insists that Qumran was a military fortress. So it was, in
the
second phase of occupation when it was used by the zealots, the
writers of
the War Scroll. But not only military. Monasteries in the ancient
world
became secret bases for military action. You only have to look at the
rows
of skulls, war trophies, in the underground chamber of the monastery
of St
Theodosius outside Bethlehem to understand that.
I have been cheered recently to be told of organisational changes
which mean
that the third phase is beginning. The first phase was the suppression
of
DSS-Christian connections by Christian fundamentalists, the next the
suppression of DSS-Christian connections by Jews. The third is the
recognition that the sectarian scrolls belong in the Christian period
and
are essential to the early history of Christianity. Time Magazine last
year
told the public that "many scholars think that the Teacher of
Righteousness
was John the Baptist." (I was the only one to say so, but the article
linked
it with Eisenman, who actually said that the Teacher was James the
brother
of Jesus.)
P.S. to Adrian, on the dishonesty of misleading people with the
invention of
miracles. Try this for a thought. Parents tell children about Santa
Claus,
and it makes the kids try to be 'good'. They discover in the process
that
there is such a thing as right and wrong. Politicians frequently tell
lies
because their job requires it. They conceal or exaggerate the truth,
when it
is necessary to keep people feeling secure. When they feel secure,
people
behave better and prevent further wrongdoing. The constantly changing
question is: what myth is currently productive, and what myth makes
for
wrongdoing?
B.T."
Peace,
David Christainsen
Newton, Mass. USA
Sir David
Carl rides his hobbyhorse.
Kendall K Down
s.com>
crunch <pchris...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Barbara Thiering.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> In message <501754a3-608c-479b-92f6-b743365f7...@3g2000vbp.googlegroup
> s.com>
> crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Barbara Thiering.
>
> Ken Down
>
> --
> ================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
> | Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
> | http://www.diggingsonline.com |
> ========================================================
I wonder wonder who, oouu who
Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
Tell me, tell me, tell me
Oh who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
I've got to know the answer
Was it someone from above
I wonder wonder who, be-do-do who
Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
I, I love you darlin'
Baby you know I do
But I've got to see this Dead Sea Scroll
Find out why it's true
I wonder wonder who, be-doooo who
Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
Chorus:
Chapter one says the lover
You lover her with all your heart
Chapter two you tell her
You never, never, never, never, ever wanna part
In chapter three remember
The meaning of archaeology
In chapter four you break up
But you give her just one piece of folly
Oh I wonder wonder who, be-doooo who
Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
Baby, baby, baby
I love you yes I do
Well it says so in this Dead Sea Scroll
Carl's is the one that's true
Oh I wonder wonder who, be-doooo who
Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
(Chorus)
Oh I wonder wonder who, be-doooo who
Who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls
Baby, baby, baby
I love you yes I do
Well it says so in this Dead Sea scroll
Carl's is the one that's true
I wonder wonder who, be-doooo who
Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
I, wonder who, (Yeah) who wrote Dead Sea Scrolls
Sir David
wrote:
> I, wonder who, (Yeah) who wrote Dead Sea Scrolls
Brilliant!
Trond Engen
> I wonder wonder who, oouu who
> Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
> Tell me, tell me, tell me
> Oh who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
>
> I've got to know the answer
> Was it someone from above
>
> [...]
>
> Baby, baby, baby
> I love you yes I do
> Well it says so in this Dead Sea scroll
> Carl's is the one that's true
>
> I wonder wonder who, be-doooo who
> Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
>
> I, wonder who, (Yeah) who wrote Dead Sea Scrolls
Divine inspiration!
--
Trond Engen
Peter Alaca
The butler did it. As usual.
crunch
wrote:
> In message <501754a3-608c-479b-92f6-b743365f7...@3g2000vbp.googlegroup
> s.com>
> crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Barbara Thiering.
Israel: First Jesus-era house found in Nazareth
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-12-21-jesus-house-nazareth_N.htm?csp=34&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+usatoday-TechTopStories+(Tech+-+Top+Stories
Please see in the article the quotes of -
Yardenna Alexandre
excavations director at the Israel Antiquities Authority
Jodi Magness
professor of archaeology and early Judaism at the University of North
Carolina-Chapel Hill
Stephen Chapman
associate professor of the Old Testament at Duke Divinity School
-----
Jesus-era home found in Nazareth
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8425094.stm
-----
Bruce Feiler
Bestselling author of Walking the Bible, Abraham, and America's
Prophet
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-feiler/christmas-decoded-what-ne_b_400147.html
"The answer is not very much. We still have no evidence that Jesus was
ever in Nazareth or in Bethlehem, the two towns featured in the
Christmas story. In fact, one of Alexandre's statements is classic
archaeological hyperbole fed to a gullible press: "It was likely Jesus
and his childhood friends would have known the house." Oh, really?
Based on what?
If anything, this new discovery shows how minor a place Nazareth was
and draws new light to a central paradox of the Christmas narrative:
Why would a pregnant mother from the Galilee travel as far south as
Bethlehem to have a child? The given reason of a census is hardly
persuasive. (The most logical answer is that King David is from
Bethlehem and since the Hebrew Bible states the messiah should come
from the line of David, a Bethlehem birth would bring the new baby
into David's home region.)
While this week's findings tell us little about Jesus, they do
highlight a number of often overlooked features of Jesus' world.
1. Jesus was a Jew, and his life story makes sense only when
understood in the context of Jewish ritual. Two of the more striking
finds in Nazareth this week were clay and chalk vessels, which were
used by Jews at the time to ensure the purity of the food and water
kept inside the vessels.
2. The Jesus story was deeply political. The hideout at the Nazareth
house, for example, is likely related to the growing tension between
Jews and Romans in the late first century B.C.E., a showdown that
colors Jesus' birth story -- and especially his death narrative.
3. The Bible is grounded in the history and landscape of the Ancient
Near East. The Bible is full of details of time and place that would
have resonated deeply to people at the time, but are often lost on us
today.
Discoveries like the one in Nazareth titillate the press because they
promise something they can't deliver: If one feature of the Bible is
true, the entire thing must be true. The real truth is that even if we
found a house in Nazareth with the names Mary and Joseph on the
mailbox and a birth announcement of a baby Jesus carved into a wall,
we'd still never find proof that God spoke to Mary, conceived a child,
and sent forth a messiah into the world.
That's not a subject for science. That's a matter of faith.
And that's exactly as it should be."
-----
Yet, I say it is a matter, not of faith, but instead, of
the soundness of Dr. Thiering's scholarship.
Sir David
> the soundness of Dr. Thiering's scholarship.
You mean "Da Crunchy Code" (aka YOUR HOBBYHORSE)
(<<Kelly>>)
> Discoveries like the one in Nazareth titillate the press because they
> promise something they can't deliver: If one feature of the Bible is
> true, the entire thing must be true. The real truth is that even if we
> found a house in Nazareth with the names Mary and Joseph on the
> mailbox and a birth announcement of a baby Jesus carved into a wall,
> we'd still never find proof that God spoke to Mary, conceived a child,
> and sent forth a messiah into the world.
>
> That's not a subject for science. That's a matter of faith.
>
> And that's exactly as it should be."
>
> -----
>
> Yet, I say it is a matter, not of faith, but instead, of
> the soundness of Dr. Thiering's scholarship.
Riiiight...God sent His only Son to be born on earth specifically for
"the soundness of Dr. Thiering's scholarship.
"You're talkin' gibberish...!" -- Lenny, "That Thing You Do!" (1996)
crunch
Wrong again, Lazy!
-----
Dear reader,
Please read the entire Thiering article carefully
and comment.
Re: What is the Meaning of Son Of God?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2791
Peace (after the Quaker fashion),
Sir David
> Please read the entire Thiering article carefully and comment.
No.
Stop telling people what to read. Stop telling people to comment.
Sucks to be you.
Seebs
> On Dec 23, 4:01�pm, Crunchy <pchristain...@yahoo.com> obsessed:
>> Please read the entire Thiering article carefully and comment.
> No.
Here's the thing. I might offer to do this, if crunchy would PROMISE to
seriously engage and respond to any questions or comments I have...
... Except that he promised in the past to answer questions, and didn't,
so I conclude that his promises are worth slightly less than his strange
alternate-history view of Christianity. Which is weirder still when
you consider his massive obsession with people who are long dead, and refusal
to acknowledge or consider people who are still alive.
I'm used to people who are so enthused about Jesus being God that they can't
discuss anything else. It's a bit weirder to encounter someone who's so
enthused about Jesus not being God that he can't discuss anything else.
-s
--
Copyright 2009, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet...@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
crunch
> On 2009-12-23, Sir David <sirda...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 23, 4:01 pm, Crunchy <pchristain...@yahoo.com> obsessed:
> >> Please read the entire Thiering article carefully and comment.
> > No.
>
> Here's the thing. I might offer to do this, if crunchy would PROMISE to
> seriously engage and respond to any questions or comments I have...
>
> ... Except that he promised in the past to answer questions, and didn't,
> so I conclude that his promises are worth slightly less than his strange
> alternate-history view of Christianity. Which is weirder still when
> you consider his massive obsession with people who are long dead, and refusal
> to acknowledge or consider people who are still alive.
>
> I'm used to people who are so enthused about Jesus being God that they can't
> discuss anything else. It's a bit weirder to encounter someone who's so
> enthused about Jesus not being God that he can't discuss anything else.
So, the thread title here has a question mark. I want
discussion of the topic, not your evasion or anybody
else's.
David Christainsen
Newton, Mass USA
Sir David
chirpled:
> So, the thread title here has a question mark. I want
> discussion of the topic, not your evasion or anybody
> else's.
Except your, of course. Of course of course. Duck, Dodge, and Hyde.
ADR
> On 2009-12-23, Sir David <sirda...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 23, 4:01 pm, Crunchy <pchristain...@yahoo.com> obsessed:
> >> Please read the entire Thiering article carefully and comment.
> > No.
>
> Here's the thing. I might offer to do this, if crunchy would PROMISE to
> seriously engage and respond to any questions or comments I have...
>
> ... Except that he promised in the past to answer questions, and didn't,
> so I conclude that his promises are worth slightly less than his strange
> alternate-history view of Christianity. Which is weirder still when
> you consider his massive obsession with people who are long dead, and refusal
> to acknowledge or consider people who are still alive.
>
> I'm used to people who are so enthused about Jesus being God that they can't
> discuss anything else. It's a bit weirder to encounter someone who's so
> enthused about Jesus not being God that he can't discuss anything else.
A very correct observation about "crunch". Of course, he has the
privilege of starting as many threads as he likes, but I agree that
his rather eccentric beliefs have been discussed ad nauseum here and
it is time to move on the discussion. Of course, the historical
realities about Jesus (whatever these may be) are a legitimate source
of inquiry for this group. As to the whole "controversy" of Jesus not
being "a God", it was adjudicated 1700 years ago and remained an
element of discussion ever since. Nothing new here. It is a very old
discussion. Please note that Jesus himself never stated that he was
God and the couple of insertions in the very late John's Gospel that
may intimate it are of very dubious provenance and not a part of the
teachings of Jesus as present in the synaptic Gospels. So, if Jesus
never said that he was God, shouldn't we take this up at face value
and move on???
ADR
> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:31:34 -0800 (PST), crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >So, the thread title here has a question mark. I want
> >discussion of the topic, not your evasion or anybody
> >else's.
>
>
> He did NOT become the King of the Jews, and lead them in a revolt over
> their oppressors, and he did NOT usher in 1000 years of peace.
>
> No matter WHAT else you think, you can NOT ignore or rationalize these.
Well, this is a theological point. Jesus declared his own kingdom,
the "Kingdom of God". He obviously set the parameters for this
kingdom. So, if he was or was not the Messiah totally depends on your
theological inclination. If you are a Jew, of course you would accept
that he was not the Messiah. If not, your interpretation would vary.
I am sure that nobody here would disagree that the "Kingdom of God"
has remained peaceful for the last 2000 years. So much about
prophecy.
Seebs
> I am sure that nobody here would disagree that the "Kingdom of God"
> has remained peaceful for the last 2000 years. So much about
> prophecy.
Peaceful by virtue of being completely uninhabited, because it's not
lucrative enough, you mean? :)
(<<Kelly>>)
> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:53:39 -0800 (PST), ADR <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> No matter WHAT else you think, you can NOT ignore or rationalize these.
>
> >Well, this is a theological point. Jesus declared his own kingdom,
> >the "Kingdom of God".
>
>
> LISTEN up!!
Wow. Why are you shouting?
crunch
Please test whether you can follow Dr. Thiering's esoteric
argument here. If not, I invite you to ask me questions.
OTOH if so, please comment.
The Pesharim 2. The pesher on Nahum (4Q169)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/5579
"From these facts it may be concluded that the Hasidim were Jerusalem
(Qumran)
Essenes who had adopted a belief in resurrection that was subsequently
shared by
Pharisees. Josephus attributes such a belief to Essenes in JW 2,
154-157. They
were different from other Essenes who did not hold such a view. These
Essenes
upheld the laws of Moses, so followed the halakah. They came to
condemn the
hellenising SS type Alcimus, so the pun could have arisen in their
time.
Hellenisers, the S-S, continued among Diaspora Jews especially. Some
of these
were hellenised Pharisees, with a broader outlook than the Hasidim.
Greek
culture gave them advanced learning and a sense of confidence in their
pagan
environment. As time went on, and especially under the inspiration of
Herod the
Great, Diaspora Jews began to dream of a Jewish world power, a Kingdom
of God,
that would be better for the world than the rising Roman power. For
some, the
Kingdom would centre in Jerusalem and make the whole world Jews. For
others, it
would centre in Samaria, or simply anywhere in the Diaspora, and put
Hellenist
thought and culture above Jewish identity."
Peter Alaca
=====================================================
Sci.Archaeology, established in May 1991, is an
unmoderated Usenet newsgroup dedicated to the
discussion of archaeology in its many aspects.
=====================================================
*Charter Sci.Archaeology*
=====================================================
1. To exchange information on various concerns
in archaeology, including method and theory, pot
hunting, egyptology, typology, dating, and other
related topics.
2. To facilitate ongoing debates and comments on
ideas or research that may not necessarily be in
a publishable form.
3. To query other interested archaeologists about
resources which could be made generally available.
(e.g. programs, images, data, references, but not
exact site locations).
4. To keep each other informed on upcoming events
of interest to social science researchers and
computing in the field of archaeology.
=====================================================
*End of charter*
=====================================================
=====================================================
*What is Archaeology*?
=====================================================
"*{Archaeology is] a subdiscipline of anthropology.
Anthropology is the study of humankind.
* Archaeology is the study of the human past
through material remains.
- Material remains are collectively referred to
as the archaeological record. This includes
artifacts (e.g., stone tools, ceramic vessels);
features(e.g., housepits, hearths); and ecofacts
(e.g., animal bones, plant remains).
* Archaeologists have three main goals:
1. Reconstruct Culture History: understand the
distribution of archaeological remains through
time and space.
2. Reconstruct Past Lifeways: determine past behavior
through material remains.
3. Explain the Process of Culture Change: understand
how and why cultures change through time.
*Forms of Archaeological Data*
* Artifacts: portable objects whose form has been
created or modified by human activity (e.g.,
projectile points, pottery vessels). Artifacts
retain their appearance after the archaeologist
takes them from the ground.
* Features: non-portable artifacts that cannot be
removed from the ground without altering or
destroying their original form (e.g., housepits,
burials, hearths).
* Ecofacts: non-artifactual material remains that are
not directly created or modified by human activity
but have cultural relevance and provide information
about past human behavior (e.g., animal bones,
sediment, pollen).
* Sites: spatial clusters of artifacts, features, and
ecofacts. Sites identify where humans have occupied
the landscape
(e.g., Birch Creek, Stonehenge).
* Regions: the largest definable spatial clusters of
archaeological data. Regions can be a geographical,
ecological, or cultural concept. Definition of a
region allows the archaeologist to investigate a
wider range of past activities that extend beyond
a single site (e.g., Great Basin, Columbia Plateau,
Southwest)."
Archaeological Field Methods: Principles of Excavation
http://www.indiana.edu/~arch/saa/matrix/afm/afm_princexc.htm
=====================================================
"Archaeology is usually defined as the study of the
human past through material culture, although
archaeologists are increasingly arguing that a better
definition would be the study of human behaviour
through material culture, making it a much broader
discipline and one of relevance to the contemporary
world. The most important aspect of the discipline is
that archaeologists study the physical changes human
beings have made to their world. Archaeology looks at
the artefacts (the tools, ornaments and other
objects), the structures (buildings, tombs and other
enclosed spaces) and landscapes (field systems,
settlements, communication routes and so on) that
people have been creating for the seven million or so
years we have been creatures distinct from the other
great apes."
http://www.kmatthews.org.uk/cult_archaeology/index.html
=====================================================
"Archaeology is concerned with cultural development
and variation through time. It involves the
reconstruction of past human behaviour through the
study of material remains recovered by field survey
and excavation. Archaeology encompasses a wide variety
of analytical and experimental methods and techniques
which draw on both the natural and social sciences."
http://www.arts.auckland.ac.nz/departments/index.cfm?P=9142
=====================================================
"Archaeology is the study of past cultural behaviour,
from the beginnings of the human species to events
that happened yesterday, through the material remains,
or artefacts, that people leave behind. By carefully
applying scientific techniques in excavation and
analysis of their findings, archaeologists attempt to
reconstruct past lifeways and understand why different
customs developed and evolved.
Archaeology is a part of anthropology, because it
studies individuals and their different cultures, even
if limited to the past. This is the most interesting
aspect of archaeology: it is a way to understand
humanity and ourselves. Archaeology is also a part of
history, but it is more reliable sometimes because
while history uses essentially written documents,
archaeology uses material evidence. A description of
facts can be very precious, but if we have only one
description, or descriptions from only one point of
view, we can not be sure to know a true part of the
past. Individuals in fact can lie or simply see things
in a convenient way."
"History is an interpretation of the past based on
ancient/old writings. Archaeology is different from
history especially for the methods used. It can help
and complement history by offering studies on
materials to be compared with documents to have a
clearer idea of how the interpretation was done. But
also archaeology, when beginning from an evidence
arrives to an inference, interprets data; for this
reason archaeologists must be careful trying to
explain the background culture in the present they
have and which part of the evidence they focused: an
objective interpretation is impossible. History uses
archaeology also for the periods when written
documents were not available, particularly prehistory,
but more extensively for any period for which there
are no documents available."
Andrea Vianello
http://www.geocities.com/andreavi/1.htm
Università Ca' Foscari ,Venezia. Facoltà di Lettere e Filosofia
<http://lettere.unive.it/materiale_didattico/archeologia_egea/1.htm>
=====================================================
*Three Basic Principles of Archaeological Research*
by Garrett Fagan
<http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=5>
=====================================================
Sir David
cue-card:
> I invite you to ask me questions.
<cue the laugh track for Carl's crunchy comical "catch-phrase" here on
the Crunchy Comedy Hour>
crunch
> crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> 24/12/2009 16:03 wrote:
>
> =====================================================
> Sci.Archaeology, established in May 1991, is an
> unmoderated Usenet newsgroup dedicated to the
> discussion of archaeology in its many aspects.
> =====================================================
> *Charter Sci.Archaeology*
> =====================================================
So, the Israeli archaeologist Peleg opines -
"There is no connection to the Essenes at this site."
The scrolls had nothing to do with the settlement.
Evidence for a religious community at Qumran is unconvincing.
-----
The Pesharim 2. The pesher on Nahum (4Q169)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/5579
"The next pesher in chronological sequence is the one on Nahum, 4Q169.
This
document was one of the pillars of the consensus case, which concluded
early
that it referred to the action of Alexander Jannaeus, who crucified
Pharisees in
88 BC.The errors in this conclusion have been discussed in #4638.
This pesher was, on the contrary, written in AD 34 or 35, by the
Baptist faction
in the Qumran community. It refers to the actions of Pontius Pilate,
called the
Young Lion of Wrath, and to the crucifixions of Simon Magus, Judas
Iscariot, and
Jesus (1:4-8)."
Peace (after the Quaker fashion),
Sir David
Seebs
To be fair: He does appear to want people to ask him questions. He
usually doesn't *answer* those questions, but that's a separate issue.
Peter Alaca
> On 2009-12-24, Sir David <sird...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 24, 10:03 am, Carl <pchristain...@yahoo.com> read this off the
>> cue-card:
>>> I invite you to ask me questions.
>
>> <cue the laugh track for Carl's crunchy comical "catch-phrase" here on
>> the Crunchy Comedy Hour>
>
> To be fair: He does appear to want people to ask him questions. He
> usually doesn't *answer* those questions, but that's a separate issue.
>
> -s
It probably gives him a feeling of power.
(<<Kelly>>)
> On 2009-12-24, Sir David <sirda...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 24, 10:03 am, Carl <pchristain...@yahoo.com> read this off the
> > cue-card:
> >> I invite you to ask me questions.
> ><cue the laugh track for Carl's crunchy comical "catch-phrase" here on
> > the Crunchy Comedy Hour>
>
> To be fair: He does appear to want people to ask him questions. He
> usually doesn't *answer* those questions, but that's a separate issue.
To be concise: no, he doesn't want people to ask him questions. You
would know this if you had any real history with David. And he never
really answers questions - he gives links and spouts non-sequitur and
dances around them. But as far as actually, completely, and concisely
answering a question...? Doesn't happen.
jerry warner
crunch wrote:
> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/78441912.html
>
> "But hearing the dramatic recitation, Peleg [Israeli archaeologist],
> 40, rolls his eyes. 'There is no connection to the Essenes at this
> site,' he tells me as a hawk circles above in the warming air. He says
> the scrolls had nothing to do with the settlement. Evidence for a
> religious community here, he says, is unconvincing. He believes,
> rather, that Jews fleeing the Roman rampage hurriedly stuffed the
> documents into the Qumran caves for safekeeping. After digging at the
> site for ten years, he also believes that Qumran was originally a fort
> designed to protect a growing Jewish population from threats to the
> east. Later, it was converted into a pottery factory to serve nearby
> towns like Jericho, he says."
>
> Yet -
>
> Answers to questions
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2747
>
> "Barbara mentioned that the steps down into the cisterns indicates
> immersion baptism. It well may but I have problems with this because
> water at Qumran would be worth more than gold. I see the steps being
> necessary for access and maintenance. If I was living there I would
> not want anyone taking a ducking in the water no matter how much the
> need for baptism. Also while I was in Jerusalem I visited an
> excavation under a convent that led down to a beautiful stepped
> cistern full of clear water said to be of Roman vintage.
>
> Reply: The water in the Qumran stepped cisterns was not for drinking.
> The deep round well, of a quite different shape, supplied enough
> drinking water for the 150 people who lived there. The well could
> easily be covered with a roof to prevent evaporation. It was sheltered
> within a group of roofed buildings. In addition to the well, the
> aqueduct leading from the wady Qumran fed seven huge rectangular
> cisterns, each the size of a suburban swimming pool or more. They lay
> in open space. They were far more than were needed for drinking water,
> and too big to be covered to prevent evaporation. The Essenes at 11 am
> each day came in from working outside in the heat and "bathed their
> bodies in cold water" (J.W. 2, 129). That is, they had a refreshing
> swim. Since the swim also prepared them for their sacred noon meal,
> for which they dressed in cool white linen robes, it was equivalent to
> a purificatory bath, taken every day. Men of different grades used
> different cisterns, since those of high grade must not make physical
> contact with low grades. "A senior if but touched by a junior must
> take a bath, as after contact with an alien."(J.W. 2, 150).
> Consequently, the baths were also used for occasions of initiation,
> expressing repentance, washing away sins, and a change to a new life.
> Each was used for a different grade, the lowest in the largest cistern
> outside the south-west corner, the highest in those nearest to the
> meal vestry and sanctuary. Any diagram of the Qumran grounds will show
> you where they were placed, and the way the aqueduct fed all of them.
> It ran once a year, after the heavy winter rains, filling up the water
> systems for a year. It is now one of the most prominent features in
> the ruins - running a long distance along the ground, about a cubit
> wide, with raised sides of stones."
>
> -----
>
> Trouble in Qumran Archaeology and DSS Scholarship
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2592
>
> "The claim that Qumran was not a monastic settlement was one of the
> diversionary tactics.
>
> De Vaux uncovered buildings that would not house a large number of
> people,
> yet contained seven large rectangular cisterns, some bigger than a
> suburban
> swimming pool. You go right down into them and the top is way above
> your
> head, as I can testify.They had steps leading down to them, grouped in
> sets
> of three, not simply for ordinary entering. For actual drinking water,
> a
> deep round well - a different shape - was sufficient for the needs of
> numbers of people. Everything about the cisterns suggested a rite of
> baptismal immersion. Such water washings were characteristic of the
> Essenes
> as described by Josephus, and as referred to in the Scrolls - they
> were used
> as a means of admission and of exclusion of heretics (1QS 5:12-15).
>
> In the outside room called the 'pantry', attached to a long east-west
> hall
> on the outside of the old Israelite wall, were found stacks of simple
> bowls
> used for food, made of the same clay as other utensils. A potter's
> kiln was
> found, showing that the pottery was manufactured on the site. Jars
> that
> have been said to be made for perfume were for spices and plants used
> for
> medical purposes - the same sort of jars containing 100 pounds of aloe
> leaves, and jars of the resin myrrh , that we have been discussing
> recently.
>
> High writing desks with the remains of inkwells, with the ink dried in
> them,
> were found in the large square building, having fallen down from a
> floor
> above. In caves in the cliffs rising at the back of the plateau were
> found
> the Dead Sea Scrolls, written in a professional scribal hand. They had
> clearly been produced at the writing desks, in a scriptorium. The
> cliff
> where they were found is about 5 minutes walk away from the building,
> across
> the neck of land that joins the cliff to the plateau. It is absurd to
> claim,
> as has been done, that the scrolls had nothing to do with the
> building.
>
> Everything pointed to a building corresponding to the monastic
> lifestyle of
> the Essenes, as described by Josephus. The Scrolls speak of practices
> that
> distinguished the Essenes from others - daily sacred meal of bread and
> wine,
> community of property, baptisms for initiation, a celibate lifestyle.
> The
> graveyard contained over 1000 graves, of males, with one small group
> of
> females. They are explained by the second order of Essenes described
> by
> Josephus. The dynasts had to have wives.
>
> Pliny writes in his Natural History, 5, 73, "On the west side of the
> Dead
> Sea, but out of range of the noxious exhalations of the coast, is the
> solitary tribe of the Essenes . it has no women and has renounced all
> sexual
> desire, has no money, and has only palm-trees for company.:" He goes
> on
> "Lying below these (infra hos) was formerly the town of Engedi, second
> only
> to Jerusalem in the fertility of its land and in its groves of palm-
> trees .
> Next comes Masada, a fortress on a rock ."
>
> The phrase 'infra hos' has been the bone seized by those who resist
> the
> connection of Qumran with Essenes. When Hirschfeld, exploring sites in
> the
> Wilderness of Judea, found the remains of a small set of adjoining
> rooms on
> the height above Engedi, it was argued that Pliny meant that Essenes
> lived
> on the height above Engedi, and below them on the plain was the town.
> Engedi
> is half way down the west coast of the Dead Sea, while Qumran is at
> its
> north-west corner. In reply, it has been argued that 'infra' is used
> in the
> sense of 'south of'. Pliny is picking out three equidistant places.
>
> The Essenes were long known to have been a kind of unorthodox Judaism
> that
> was similar to early Christianity. The French scholar Renan said in
> the 19th
> century that Christianity was 'un ess�nisme r�ussit' (an Essenism that
> had
> succeeded). That concept was unpopular with both fundamentalist
> Christians
> who believed that it had all been directly revealed from heaven, and
> with
> orthodox Jews, who would not admit any connection between Judaism and
> Christianity. The two groups allied on this matter.
>
> An attempt was made to argue that Qumran was merely a manufacturing
> site,
> or, in one case, a lodging place for travellers coming up the Dead Sea
> by
> boat. All the information listed above was simply ignored. Vermes
> wrote
> derisively of this latter case, of 'the Qumran Hilton'.
>
> The numerous coins found on the site are not a contra-indication, but
> go
> with the Copper Scroll. While it was deserted after the earthquake of
> 31 BC,
> Herod, who was collecting money from the Diaspora for his building
> projects
> (4Q159), used it to store the enormous amount of money that was coming
> in.
>
> You will have noticed at the beginning of the quoted article that
> mainstream
> scholars are accepting the Essene identification, which means also the
> monastic identification. In a recent documentary film, Michael Stone,
> a
> Jewish Australian who was a leading Qumran scholar in Israel, said
> that it
> is now accepted that Qumran was Essene.
>
> Norman Golb insists that Qumran was a military fortress. So it was, in
> the
> second phase of occupation when it was used by the zealots, the
> writers of
> the War Scroll. But not only military. Monasteries in the ancient
> world
> became secret bases for military action. You only have to look at the
> rows
> of skulls, war trophies, in the underground chamber of the monastery
> of St
> Theodosius outside Bethlehem to understand that.
>
> I have been cheered recently to be told of organisational changes
> which mean
> that the third phase is beginning. The first phase was the suppression
> of
> DSS-Christian connections by Christian fundamentalists, the next the
> suppression of DSS-Christian connections by Jews. The third is the
> recognition that the sectarian scrolls belong in the Christian period
> and
> are essential to the early history of Christianity. Time Magazine last
> year
> told the public that "many scholars think that the Teacher of
> Righteousness
> was John the Baptist." (I was the only one to say so, but the article
> linked
> it with Eisenman, who actually said that the Teacher was James the
> brother
> of Jesus.)
>
> P.S. to Adrian, on the dishonesty of misleading people with the
> invention of
> miracles. Try this for a thought. Parents tell children about Santa
> Claus,
> and it makes the kids try to be 'good'. They discover in the process
> that
> there is such a thing as right and wrong. Politicians frequently tell
> lies
> because their job requires it. They conceal or exaggerate the truth,
> when it
> is necessary to keep people feeling secure. When they feel secure,
> people
> behave better and prevent further wrongdoing. The constantly changing
> question is: what myth is currently productive, and what myth makes
> for
> wrongdoing?
>
> B.T."
>
> Peace,
> David Christainsen
> Newton, Mass. USA
has anyone ever thought of doing some forensics on them?
duh.....
crunch
> On 2009-12-24, Sir David <sirda...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 24, 10:03 am, Carl <pchristain...@yahoo.com> read this off the
> > cue-card:
> >> I invite you to ask me questions.
> ><cue the laugh track for Carl's crunchy comical "catch-phrase" here on
> > the Crunchy Comedy Hour>
>
> To be fair: He does appear to want people to ask him questions. He
> usually doesn't *answer* those questions, but that's a separate issue.
4Q169 is a scroll; it is entirely appropriate that I bring it up
in a thread asking who wrote the scrolls. There was controversy
as to when it was written. This pesher was written "in AD 34 or 35, by
the
Baptist faction in the Qumran community." If you can't formulate
a question by now, you just don't grasp the importance of what is
being said.
BTW on SRQ I am currently giving Kelly a massive amount
of intellectual opposition on her "dog" issue for
Rev 22:15 (Hebrew vs. Greek) etc.
Peace (after the Quaker fashion),
crunch
I have never seen such bunk in my life; please knock it off.
So, I don't answer questions from people who are out to
prove me dishonest and fail to have the right spirit to learn.
Bottom line - I will answer questions diligently from people
who are not carried away by polemic.
David Christainsen
Sir David
> > > > >> I invite you to ask me questions.
> > answering a question...? Doesn't happen.
>
> I have never seen such bunk in my life; please knock it off.
>
> So, I don't answer questions
> Bottom line - I will answer questions
In a deft gambit thoroughly anticipated by all his fans, Crunchy ...
makes excuses for not answering questions, pretends to invite more
questions, and yet completely fails to answer the questions. Excuses
aplenty, answers none. That's Crunchy Carl!
Sucks to be you, Carl.
Sir David
> 4Q169 is a scroll;
Crunchy Carl is a troll.
> BTW on SRQ I am currently giving Kelly a massive amount
> of intellectual opposition
You mean a pathetic lame attempt at an impotent flame war, that you
lost before you even thought of it. Several volumes of cut-n-paste
crap from your little hobbypages, fake requests for questions, and a
ceremonious series of kookdances to avoid ever provided any
answers ... that's not a massive amount of intellectual opposition.
It's a mentally impaired kookdancer displaying a complete absense of
anything resembling intellect. See a counsellor.
(<<Kelly>>)
> BTW on SRQ I am currently giving Kelly a massive amount
> of intellectual opposition on her "dog" issue for
> Rev 22:15 (Hebrew vs. Greek) etc.
Are you writing it in invisible ink?
(<<Kelly>>)
> On Dec 24, 1:01 pm, "(<<Kelly>>)" <rosie_be...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 24, 9:02 am, Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> wrote:
>
> > > On 2009-12-24, Sir David <sirda...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 24, 10:03 am, Carl <pchristain...@yahoo.com> read this off the
> > > > cue-card:
> > > >> I invite you to ask me questions.
> > > ><cue the laugh track for Carl's crunchy comical "catch-phrase" here on
> > > > the Crunchy Comedy Hour>
>
> > > To be fair: He does appear to want people to ask him questions. He
> > > usually doesn't *answer* those questions, but that's a separate issue.
>
> > To be concise: no, he doesn't want people to ask him questions. You
> > would know this if you had any real history with David. And he never
> > really answers questions - he gives links and spouts non-sequitur and
> > dances around them. But as far as actually, completely, and concisely
> > answering a question...? Doesn't happen.
>
> I have never seen such bunk in my life;
Of course you have. Just look at the archives where your posts are.
> please knock it off
Knock what off? Being honest about you? Yeah, I know others being
honest about you makes you uncomfortable, but...
...too bad.
> So, I don't answer questions from people who are out to
> prove me dishonest and fail to have the right spirit to learn.
No one has to "prove" you dishonest - you do it to yourself practially
everytime you post.
> Bottom line - I will answer questions diligently from people
> who are not carried away by polemic.
No you won't. It doesn't matter how poeple are - polemic, non-
polemic; honest, dishonest; right, wrong...
...you're not going to answer anything about Thiering that isn't
something you can cut and paste because you are incapable of answering
anything on Thiering in your own words because you don't understaind
Thiering's work. Barbara Thiering said so herself...
"I am prepared to say that David Christainsen does indeed have a
problem of obsessiveness, and in fact is not a fully reliable source
on the detail of the pesher. You may quote my opinion." --Barbara
Thiering, PhD
Day Brown
> The constantly changing
> question is: what myth is currently productive, and what myth makes
> for wrongdoing?
Levantine scriptures with an alpha male tyrant concept of god, have used
it to justify the aggressive instincts of the warrior class ever since
Joshua did to the land of Canaan what we now call 'genocide'. In the
name of the Lord.
That's wrongdoing enuf for me.
But then, there's the prehistoric faith in the Great Earth Mother, aka
Gaia. Or, Aphrodite, Astarte, Ananna, Brigit, Demeter, Freya, Hera,
Isis, Juno, Kali, Maeve, Potnia, Sophia, Venus, and a myriad more. The
reason there are so many names is that nobody ever went to war over what
the name should be.
The Golden Age of Peace really existed, and that was because the people
worshiped Gaia. Which is easy to understand when you consider the
problem a demagogue would have trying to rile up a mob or an army by
claiming that HE speaks in HER name. It just dont work for him.
By their fruits yea shall know them.
crunch
We attach too much consequence to certain attacks; they
cannot do us any essential injury.
Peter Alaca
=====================================================
Sci.Archaeology, established in May 1991, is an
unmoderated Usenet newsgroup dedicated to the
discussion of archaeology in its many aspects.
=====================================================
*Charter Sci.Archaeology*
=====================================================