Concerning Roman baths and other matters
ElizaJon
My daughter (age 12) is studying ancient history this year. She must make a
diarama for class with a partner. She and her friend consulted with me. They
had chosen the Roman Empire for their region (I know, broad choice). I asked
some questions as to what precisely they would feature in their diarama. They
finally narrowed their selection down to a Roman bath (complete with
frigidarium, tepidarium and caldarium). I think this is an excellent choice,
since the typical bath shows Roman excellence in engineering/water
transport/building/heating, as well as promoting hygiene.
Slight problem: both my 12-year old and her older sister (15) have absolutely
no interest in history. I serve only as a handy reference for when these types
of school projects come up. I know I seemed to absorb my love of history--by
osmosis??--from my parents (who both got bachelor's degrees from the Univ. of
Chicago in the 1940's), as did my brothers and sisters. I am totally mystified.
Is there hope for my daughters? Or, must I face the sad fact that my two older
daughters will have minimal interest in what happened before they were born?
Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but I hope I can get
some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers): how and when did a love of
history become important in your life?
I appreciate any responses. (BTW, I thoroughly enjoy this ng's posts.)
Best regards,
Eliza
So many books. So little time.
Zimri
<snip>
>Slight problem: both my 12-year old and her older sister (15) have
absolutely
>no interest in history. I serve only as a handy reference for when these
types
>of school projects come up. I know I seemed to absorb my love of
history--by
>osmosis??--from my parents (who both got bachelor's degrees from the Univ.
of
>Chicago in the 1940's), as did my brothers and sisters. I am totally
mystified.
>Is there hope for my daughters? Or, must I face the sad fact that my two
older
>daughters will have minimal interest in what happened before they were
born?
I guess it depends. What are their interests? Are they generally open to
new ideas?
>Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but I hope I can
get
>some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers): how and when did a
love of
>history become important in your life?
When I was eight, I wasn't so much interested in history as political
geography. I thought it was pretty cool that Mongolia used to be the
biggest country in the world. I also had a plastic Roman soldier's outfit
for Halloween, but with a longsword.
Later on, I started to put the history and my books of Greek and Hebrew
mythology together. I thought it was amazing that the Western "Age of
Legend" is 1400-1000 BCE (Homer, Joshua-2 Samuel), at which point the
pyramids were already over a thousand years old. Also, I noticed that the
world civilization which created the pyramids etc. ended in 1200, and very
violently.
Then I got interested in how empires fell - how much was fact in the Homeric
epics - and (following a rotten experience in a Bible summer camp at age 13)
how much fact was in the Bible.
Ten years on and I'm still a Late Bronze and Bible specialist. With a minor
in Graeco-Latin civilization. ;^)
>I appreciate any responses. (BTW, I thoroughly enjoy this ng's posts.)
Thank you. And please excuse me if my posts have been cranky.
-- Zimri
Vagor
ElizaJon wrote in message <19981002005355...@ng-fc2.aol.com>...
Or, must I face the sad fact that my two older
>daughters will have minimal interest in what happened before they were
born?
>
>Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but I hope I can
get
>some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers): how and when did a
love of
>history become important in your life?
If you don't love books, you will have a hard time loving history (perhaps
this statement can someday be extended to the Internet, but it will still be
about reading). If you do love reading, you will learn history by accident.
You have to find something exciting in history, or which strikes an internal
chord, to "love" it. I loved reading everything from my earliest memory, and
my family had lots old dusty history books around (thanks largely to my very
well-read grandfather). I thought the books themselves were cool, the older,
dustier, and thicker, the better (though at that time I rarely read them all
the way through), and especially those with the old woodcut-type
illustrations.
Somewhat shamefacedly, I confess to a puerile childhood glee in gory,
anecdotal military accounts, which persists to the present (hopefully with
some refinement, and with a profound sense of relief that they happened to
others, now that my own experience has acquainted me with pain and
mortality). The pursuit of military history exposed me to the philosophy,
religion, culture, and anthropology of many peoples, which as I grew older
became more interesting in themselves. This is probably not a suitable
motivation for 12 and 15 old girls. But reading was the key.
As long as they are reading, they will have more background than they
realize, if their interest in history is someday awakened. At their current
ages they probably have "better things" to do, and I doubt if there is much
peer pressure to keep up with the exploits of the long-dead.
At some point anyone who reads history is struck by the continuity of
ancient events into our own time. Perhaps often pointing out the
relationship of current events to historical events will plant some
awareness for their future. Seeing the present as merely a point in time,
rather than as the way things simply "are", seems to be a challenge even for
some adults.
One other motivation was to be bested, or at least irritated, by annoying
know-it-alls who knew more than I did about some historical trivia. This led
to a desire to know more (and thus be more annoying). Nothing like
competition to spur development- or Usenet!
elag
year old girl, one must proceed from her innate interests. If she's
interested in music discuss music history, if she's interested in fashion...
fashion history. Love of history among adolescents rarely stems from dusty
tomes and droning instructors. History is full of interesting STORIES... and
emphasising these over dry old dates and names is the best way to proceed.
Any intelligent person will have some interest in history if it isn't drained
out of them by the rote history taught in most schools. This diorama is an
excellent opportunity to show your daughter why history is exciting to you.
Become an expert on the daily life of the Roman Empire and I'm sure that some
of your enthusiasm will rub off.
In my own case, love of art led to an interest in art history, which increased
my existing interest in history in general. This has always remained with me.
elag
ElizaJon wrote:
>
> My daughter (age 12) is studying ancient history this year. She must make a
> diarama for class with a partner. She and her friend consulted with me. They
> had chosen the Roman Empire for their region (I know, broad choice). I asked
> some questions as to what precisely they would feature in their diarama. They
> finally narrowed their selection down to a Roman bath (complete with
> frigidarium, tepidarium and caldarium). I think this is an excellent choice,
> since the typical bath shows Roman excellence in engineering/water
> transport/building/heating, as well as promoting hygiene.
>
> Slight problem: both my 12-year old and her older sister (15) have absolutely
> no interest in history. I serve only as a handy reference for when these types
> of school projects come up. I know I seemed to absorb my love of history--by
> osmosis??--from my parents (who both got bachelor's degrees from the Univ. of
> Chicago in the 1940's), as did my brothers and sisters. I am totally mystified.
> Is there hope for my daughters? Or, must I face the sad fact that my two older
> daughters will have minimal interest in what happened before they were born?
>
> Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but I hope I can get
> some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers): how and when did a love of
> history become important in your life?
>
> I appreciate any responses. (BTW, I thoroughly enjoy this ng's posts.)
>
Robert Sulentic
will eventually follow.
Curt Emanuel
>
>
> Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but I hope I can get
> some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers): how and when did a love of
> history become important in your life?
>
Tolkien.
I read LOTR when I was about 14 and I became fascinated by medieval
history. That interest has expanded, though I still concentrate on the
Middle Ages. I also find Roman and Germanic history very interesting - I
just haven't found the time to explore it in any depth.
If your daughters like to read then perhaps alternate history might be a
way to go. Penman, Stewart(more fantasy though), Llywelyn, Newman, and
Peters, as well as others, write excellent AH (Medieval for those I've
named).
And if they don't read, there's still some hope. Peters' Cadfael
mysteries on PBS are excellent. Perhaps even Hercules and Xena, trash
that they are, may redeem themselves by inspiring an interest in history
in youngsters. There's always the History Channel, or PBS.
Curt Emanuel
Vagor
Curt Emanuel wrote in message <361552...@accs.net>...
>Tolkien.
>If your daughters like to read then perhaps alternate history might be a
>way to go. Penman, Stewart(more fantasy though), Llywelyn, Newman, and
>Peters, as well as others, write excellent AH (Medieval for those I've
>named).
<smacks forehead> Of course! "The Once and Future King" by T. H. White- that
would hook anybody. If they don't like it, you probably will. Tolkien class
all the way, a little more historical, with the magic that reality often
appears to lack.
Laura Buddine
>
> Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but I hope I can get
> some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers): how and when did a love of
> history become important in your life?
>
I hated history in school -- all those boring dates and stuff, and
people who spoke like they were in a Christmas pageant.
And then I got into some good historical fiction -- whoa! Real people,
with loves, hates, adventures and dirty little secrets -- and after I
_knew_ those people, then I wanted to find out "and _then_ what
happened?" That was how it started for me -- as soon as the people
became "real" to me.
Each era and period that I've pursued has had a starting book ... what's
really cool is that, the more you read, the more you run across
characters from one book in another -- that, for me, was the real spark
to find out the whole story.
ElizaJon
Thanks to many who took the time to respond to my question.
Curt, a comment on your post--
<snip>
>And if they don't read, there's still some hope. Peters' Cadfael
>mysteries on PBS are excellent. Perhaps even Hercules and Xena, trash
>that they are, may redeem themselves by inspiring an interest in history
>in youngsters.
I neglected to mention that my daughters are *confirmed* television fanatics.
Hercules and Xena are two of their absolute favorites. Also, my 12-year-old
grudgingly chose _The Hobbit_ from an assigned school reading list over the
summer (truthfully, the list had some books even I think difficult, that I
wouldn't choose for my personal reading). She ended up enjoying it--even though
it was forced reading. I'll certainly follow up in that vein in the future.
Also, the suggestion to encourage my daughter to become the expert in her class
on Roman daily life has merit. She might just rise to the challenge, if I frame
it in a half-joking manner.
Regards to all.
Garry W
>Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but I hope I can get
>some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers): how and when did a love of
>history become important in your life?
We had intense Vietnam-era "discussions" about American politics in my
family. I guess that naturally morphed into an interest into American
political history for me. Then, being a science-fiction fan (and a liberal),
I wanted to reach farther and farther out and "touch" a people as exotic as I
could get --- but find them to be understandable and "connected" to me in the
present. And that landed me finally in the early Middle Ages.
Recently I started law school. I am completely delighted to see how modern
American property law is directly descended from rules made by William the
Conqueror &c...
Garry
Carol de Bruin
one which can engender the love in history rather than looking at some way
to inspire/acquire the love in history to deal with the event.
This is a "must do" for educational purposes so it will be done, with or
without a degree of enjoyment. You role as a sounding board would be one of
pointing out the parallels, variances and unusual aspects when compared to
modern life and linking in their interests, then send them off to think
about/research the why.
If it takes off, it is obviously going to be the eat sleep and drink topic
in your lives for a while. Watch out for saturation and despair!
The bath idea is good and there is a wealth of comparisons and topics such
as:
who used them? - male/female - that should open a debate, everyone?
selected few? did usage differ from place to place? how were they used and
what went on inside the baths? Why was the usage structured like this? What
did it say about the society?
what were they there for - not for bathing as we know it - what was the
role in society
concepts re: the naked body - norms in society, what would be said about
this form of activity/concept the modern day? How does it relate to our
health gyms? Were they really healthy?
Where are they found? -this will give a concept of the spread of the
empire.
How did non-Romans feel about them at the time?
Then there are all the artistic, building, technological features and the
level of advancement of the Romans.
Just a thought for approach.
Cheers and good luck
--
Carol de Bruin
car...@global.co.za
Johannesburg, RSA
ElizaJon <eliz...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981002005355...@ng-fc2.aol.com>...
> since the typical bath shows Roman excellence in engineering/water
> transport/building/heating, as well as promoting hygiene.
>
> Slight problem: both my 12-year old and her older sister (15) have
absolutely
> no interest in history. I serve only as a handy reference for when these
types
> of school projects come up.
> Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but I hope I can
get
> some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers): how and when did a
love of
> history become important in your life?
>
> I appreciate any responses. (BTW, I thoroughly enjoy this ng's posts.)
>
> Best regards,
>
chry...@my-dejanews.com
"Zimri" <zim...@earthlink.com> wrote:
> ElizaJon wrote in message <19981002005355...@ng-fc2.aol.com>...
>
>
> >Slight problem: both my 12-year old and her older sister (15) have
> absolutely
> >no interest in history. I serve only as a handy reference for when these
> types
> history--by
> >osmosis??--from my parents (who both got bachelor's degrees from the Univ.
> of
> >Chicago in the 1940's), as did my brothers and sisters. I am totally
> mystified.
> >Is there hope for my daughters? Or, must I face the sad fact that my two
> older
> >daughters will have minimal interest in what happened before they were
> born?
>
> new ideas?
>
> get
> >some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers): how and when did a
> love of
> >history become important in your life?
>
> geography. I thought it was pretty cool that Mongolia used to be the
> biggest country in the world. I also had a plastic Roman soldier's outfit
> for Halloween, but with a longsword.
>
> Later on, I started to put the history and my books of Greek and Hebrew
> mythology together. I thought it was amazing that the Western "Age of
> Legend" is 1400-1000 BCE (Homer, Joshua-2 Samuel), at which point the
> pyramids were already over a thousand years old. Also, I noticed that the
> world civilization which created the pyramids etc. ended in 1200, and very
> violently.
>
> Then I got interested in how empires fell - how much was fact in the Homeric
> epics - and (following a rotten experience in a Bible summer camp at age 13)
> how much fact was in the Bible.
>
> Ten years on and I'm still a Late Bronze and Bible specialist. With a minor
> in Graeco-Latin civilization. ;^)
>
>
>
> -- Zimri
>
>
I got interested in history because my father told me we both had a "Roman
nose," news I didn't appreciate getting at age 12. Since it turned out to be
true, I guess, I became fascinated by the question of how a Canadian of
English descent might come by a Roman nose. This led to my reading about
Roman Britain (clue!: my father's middle name was Carlisle; the town of
Carlisle remained Roman longer than many other towns!!) which in turn led to
more reading about the late Roman Empire. THEN I read the Odyssey and Iliad,
more or less for the first time, and was astonished that they are not taught
with more of an eye to the extraordinary place they hold in real history.
Rather than being anything about "honor" (the keyword to remember in 10th
grade lit) they seemed to me a kind of scrumptuous Indo-European historical
fruitcake, with bits and pieces drifting through from a time that is not
mythic but semi-barbaric.
I am interested in how complex societies collapse, but also in what happens
after that -- how social structures re-emerge after a catastrophe. I am
basically at the amateur level for now. (Inching my way through an
undergraduate degree.) Academics still seem overly focused on civilizations
rather than the larger picture of how humans coalesce into social structures,
and how these structures gain in complexity, crash, and are re-formed.
Your response is highly welcomed.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
chry...@my-dejanews.com
with more of an eye to the extraordinary place they hold in, or for, real
Jonathan Swerdloff
* snip *
> Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but
> I hope I can get some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers):
> how and when did a love of history become important in your life?
My first taste of enjoyable history was Colleen McCullough's book "The
First Man in Rome" in my Sophomore year in college. My high school
curriculum of "Let's spend one day on every major event in Western
history" was rather bland. It wasn't until someone (Mrs. McCullough)
breathed life into some of these long-dead types that I got a taste of
what ancient history could be about if I put my mind to it. Next came
Mary Renault's Alexander series, after which, I turned to Thucydides and
Plutarch.
It was the masterful writing of these two ladies that opened the door
for me.
-Jonathan Swerdloff http://www.swerdloff.com/
Macedon
>
> * snip *
> > Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but
> > I hope I can get some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers):
> > how and when did a love of history become important in your life?
History is part of my culture, although not history as Europeans define it.
But one's ancestors and the story of one's people and traditions are highly
important. So while, as a child, I hated history in school--it was a very
foreign approach to me--I loved to sit and listen to my elders tell stories
about our family and our people.
It wasn't till I was an adult that I realized that history IS story. (In
French, it's the same word: histoire.) Kings n' things are the data of
history, not the soul of it. Once I realized the distinction, I realized
that I'd always loved "history." Now, I try to make sure my students get
plenty of "histoire." They may be amused by my teaching methods, but at
least they don't go to sleep in my classes. ;>
Macedon
Paddy Joe Shannon
<mac...@geocities.com> writes
>> ElizaJon <eliz...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> * snip *
>> > Allow me to state a proper question (slightly off-topic, but
>> > I hope I can get some thoughtful answers from fellow history-lovers):
>> > how and when did a love of history become important in your life?
Anybody remember Velikovsky? Shrieks of horror all round! Well, he got
me interested in ancient history. Just about everything he said was
wrong, but it was fascinating stuff just the same, and it inspired me to
find out what really happened, according to 'proper' historians. Funnily
enough, with David Rohle's recent reworking of Egyptian chronology, and
a 3-part documentary on British TV proposing an advanced civilisation
circa 10,500 BC obliterated by a comet, Velikovskian ideas just keep
cropping up. Shame there's probably no truth in any of it, but thanks to
bestseller authors like Velikovsky (dare I mention Von Daniken?) we mass
consumers can often be teased into closer and more critical study of the
past. Good eh?
--
Paddy Joe Shannon
Sophie
I have a thought--I was not very interested in history until HS. Part of my
interest was sparked by an excellent teacher, but my mother gave me all sorts of
quite juicy historical fiction to read (MM Kaye, Norah Lofts, Anya Seton and the
like), and that really got me going. I ended up carrying a history minor in college
(art History major) and then going on to get an MA in US History.
Sophie