Re: Carandini Finds Temple Jupiter Stator & Possibly Julius Caesar'...

[Poetic Justice]

[Also cross-posted to soc.history.ancient]

tomhu...@gmail.com wrote;

>After reading most of the comments here,
>I can only make one remark to those
>having somewhat "negative feelings"
>towards Carandini...

Overall in that thread that would be me:-).
And my only "negative fellings" towards him is *only* for his
sensational claims to the media.

And I'm not alone in that.
And I didn't wake up one day and say "I think I'll start bad-mouthing
some Italian archaeolgist on the internet for fun:-).

I'm extremely jealous of the man and I wish I was him!

>You should start by actually reading his
>publications,

My comments were not about what he *officially* publishes later that his
peers will read.

My comments are about what he *personally* claims to the media.

And his fellow Italian archaeologists also take issue with his
sensational media claims.

For the publicity and funding? That's not my original idea as that has
also been stated in the media about him.

>and not only stick to news paper articles
>writeen by people who don't have a clue...

Yes they are clueless but they are *only* reporting what Carandini
actually said to them.

They are not following him around like some hi-profile politician,
Hollywood movie star or singer.

*He* is contacting *them* to make his claims, they are not hanging
around his excavations and making-up stories to report.

>- Carandini never claimed to have found a
>wall actually built by Romulus,

True in 1988 when he discovered it and the experts dated it to the 7C
that is what he said.

In 1997 to the present-day the Wall is redated by him to ~750-725BC when
the 1st King of Rome rules that could *possibly* be named Romulus.

Did he actually re-excavate the 1988 excavation years later and make a
new discovery? That seems unlikely?

Or did he just re-date the original evidence for some reason?

What does he say in his book about this change of dating?

>nor that Romulus ever existed;

No usually it's just the 1st King of Rome that he links to these
discoveries that could possibly be named Romulus.

I don't have a problem with that, some ruler of that Iron-Age community
in the 8thC possibly got the ball rolling but his name is unimportant
here.

But the only thing 'structural' proven by the archaeological evidence of
them are postholes for their waddle and daub huts with small water
drainage channels around those huts.
These they chiseled-out in the bedrock on the Palatine Hill.

What does Carandini report in his book on the construction of this Wall?

Is it made-up of large stone cut blocks by these same people?

>he has found the wall around the first
>pomerium, on the Palatine, which in
>ancient times was known as "the wall of
>Romulus". Why change that name now?
>Why call it "old wall on the Palatine" when
>it is already called "wall of Romulus"?

I know the in 19th excavations they also found a Wall that they called
the 'Wall of Romulus' could this be the same one?

Just a different section?

Or a completely different Wall?

*If* it was built in the 7thC as the original evidence showed, why would
the ancients of that period call it the 'Wall of Romulus' vs. the 'Wall
of whatever later King' built it?

>- Carandini never claimed the
>rediscovered grotto was the actual
>Lupercal.

TO THE MEDIA???

Google can prove that wrong by the claims *he* personally made at the
time.
A few are on these 2 threads for starters;
http://tinyurl.com/cvrqrv
http://tinyurl.com/chng5h

>In his book "la Casa di Augusto" he claims
>it is a place of worship built at the time of
>Augustus, as a part of his building
>program

Again, What did *he* earlier claim to the media?

And what do the other archaeologists believe this structure might have
been? Religious or more likely something else?

And doesn't he also claim there that Augustus had a *massive palace*
that extended down the Palatine's slope to that Church of Anastasia vs a
couple of Republican-era houses in a complex on top of that section of
the Hill?

And this massive palace left behind no archaeological evidence on the
top and the slope of the Palatine Hill?
And I don't mean a simple wall foundation that's *believed* to be from
this structure found beneath that church.

>("I live on top of the place where Romulus
>was suckled"). He even says that the
>actual cave would probably have been
>about 100m East, where the church of
>Anastasia is now.

Did you mean West?

If so, it's the same claims other archaeologists were making to dispute
*his* media claims at the same time?

The cave of this discovery(x) is on the Hill's slope that faced the
Circus Maximus. And at least 1 ancient source places the Lupercal facing
the road *to* the Circus Maximus which would place it facing the Vicus
Tuscus here --->|_x_ vs the 'x'.

And I recall Christopher I. in one of the tinyurl.com threads I posted
mentions other evidence to support this?

Again, What was Carandini claiming to the media at that time and shortly
afterwards about the Lupercal?

>- People have been searching for the
>Temple of Iupiter Stator for a long time.

And in the 19thC excavations they claimed to have found it also (a
massive concrete/rubble foundation like an elevated temple is built on),
a stone's throw from the Arch of Titus.

>[Oxford Archaeological Guides Rome
>1998]
>"When first excavated in 1886 it was
>identified as the Temple of Jupiter Stator,
>an idea rejected soon afterwards but now
>back in favour."

>According to ancient sources, it is to be
>found on the slopes of the Palatine, at the
>eastern end of the Sacra Via, close to the
>Porta Mugonia.

The 1886 temple fits that description of the "on the slopes of the
Palatine" "eastern end of the Sacra Via", I don't know exactly where
Carandini places his "Porta Mugonia" but from everything I've read it
seems rather close also?

Where exactly does Carandini place his Wall and Porta and his temple
discovery in relation to the Arch of Titus if you have that information
(with the eastside of the Arch of Titus facing the Colosseum, so like
~50m South of the Arch)?

>When you find in that exact spot the
>remains of a relatively large building,
>contemporary to the time when the temple
>was built,

I don't know the 1886 temple's dating but neither has Carandini
mentioned how he dated his in the English media.

Has he dated his temple with evidence yet?

I would honestly like to know and I'm routing for it to be the Stator
Temple.

>with votive pottery and an altar,

Neither would be uncommon for many structures.

Off the top of my head; Augustus' birth home also on the slope of the
Palatine has a altar and votive pottery and the Domus Public has an
altar (both ones are the statue pedestal types) and I'm fairly certain
votive pottery has been found at the Domus Publica?

Wouldn't *the* sacrificial altar be on the Temple's front steps (and
rather large) so the public can see these rites and also to keep the
blood out of the temple like most of the temples in that area?

Is that what he found?

>it is quite acceptable to assume that this
>is the temple the texts talk about.

Vs. the 1886 temple or any other structure that happens to be found in
that general area?

>Is it proof? No. Is it a logical assumption?
>Very much so.

It sounds like more of a possibility until evidence is provided that
this was definitely a temple for starters, dating (brickstamps?) and
then the *general* location would make it a logical assumption.

>- For the "house of Caesar", this is
>nothing new. At the time of his murder,
>Iulius Caesar lived in the Domus Publica
>as Pontifex Maximus.

The Domus Publica is *NOT* on the Palatine Hill as Carandini excavators
claimed in that Italian achaeological magazine and in media press
releases.
It is at the edge of the Roman Forum Square.

>Already in previous publications (Il Primo
>Giorno, Le Case del Potere nell' Antica
>Roma, Atalante di Roma Antica) he
>speaks about the early republican houses
>found East of the (republican) house of
>the Vestals: the Aedes Larum, the Domus
>Regis Sacrorum and the house of
>Tarquinius

Yes there were Republican houses excavated in the 19thC East of the
Vestals (one is somewhat visible today and ID'ed as Publis Clodius'
house).

"found" correct? Did the 19C excavators ID them or does Carandini ID
these *very famous* structures as such?

>- later the Domus Publica.

Which is a part of the Vestal's House/Temple and Regia complex which is
at the farthest end of these mentioned structures.

>The only problem for him now is that the
>remains of the temple of Iupiter Stator,
>have been found right at the spot where
>he thought the southern half of the Domus
>Publica (Caesar's house) was located.

That's *totally* 100% wrong.

Anything/everything over the southern half of the Domus Publica would be
the House of the Vestal Virgins.
And that is not were his excavation is being done is it?

In the photo North is the upper left corner of your screen.

www.aviewoncities.com/img/rome/kveit1111s.jpg

See the roofed structure in the center of the photo. One section of that
covers the excavated impluvium of the Domus Publica.

In your mind put a rectangular atrium around it and then a rectangular
domus around that. [`.``.`=`.``.`]

And roughly from the right-edge of the tree line is where the Domus'
main entrance is.

Over to almost the right-edge of the photo where they excavated that
room (what the hell is it called?) that faced the opposite end of an
atrium where the owner of the Domus would greet and met his arrivals,
have his family's death masks, books, his great-great grandfather's
sword that was used in the 'Battle of ......", etc.

Most likely the Domus Public extended *a bit* south of what you see in
the photos but it is *not* going to be on the Palatine Hill or even the
slope of the Palatine Hill, the Via Nova is there.

Again *not* where they are excavating.

And then up to the Via Sacra (street) and down to the line of statues &
bases.

And Carandini's excavators with there "might also have discovered"
Julius Caesar' 'Ides of March' Palatine Hill House which would actually
be ~100-150M SE of the Domus Publica in the photo and somewhere near the
Arch of Titus (correct? and if so) with a bunch of other Republican-era
houses in-between them?

>I'm wondering what solution he'll find for
>this :)

He doesn't need a solution, this is the main point I was trying to make
in that thread.

The World press is not going pick-up the story that archaeologists found
the 'Temple of Jupiter Stator' that the vast majority of their readers
have never heard of.

*But* throw-in a Julius Caesar and an Ides of March possible
connection...Bingo!
It is total media BULLSHIT though and it is *not* going to be claimed in
any official excavation report or peer reviewed articles.

It will only be an insider joke among themselves about his earlier media
claim and not what he actually reports he found.

This since 2005 seems to be the SOP for *some* other Italian
archaeologists as well where they tie-in a famously known person or
event to their discovery and go to the media.

Vespasian's villa, Nero's rotating banquet room, graves discovered
pre-Romulus' founding of Rome!, Atheneum, etc.

Are any of them true? I don't know, I'm just very leery when they make
the claim *during* the excavation with very little if any evidence?

If they ever find *a* domus in Suburra it will be Julius Caesar's birth
home right off the bat.