Revelation on NT Revelation
crunch
> On Dec 23, 1:09 pm, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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> > On Dec 23, 12:42 pm, "(<<Kelly>>)" <rosie_be...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
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> > > On Dec 23, 6:40 am, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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> > > > On Dec 22, 8:31 pm, "(<<Kelly>>)" <rosie_be...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
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> > > > > On Dec 22, 5:25 pm, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >...
> > > > > > On Dec 22, 8:12 pm, "(<<Kelly>>)" <rosie_be...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
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> > > > > > > On Dec 22, 3:30 pm, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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> > > > > > > > On Dec 22, 4:08 pm, "Yowie" <yowie9644.DIESPAM...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > > >...
> > > > > > > > Thiering lexicon of special meaningshttp://www.pesherofchrist.infinitesoulutions.com/index_For_Reference....
>
> > > > > > > > Dog kyōn
>
> > > > > > > > "A homosexual, as in Deuteronomy 23:18. In the list of members of a
> > > > > > > > militant abbey in Revelation 22:15 the homosexual, as a plu. rep. In
> > > > > > > > Mark 7:27,28 the question of homosexuality is dealt with in Jesus'
> > > > > > > > exchange with Helena the Syrophoenican woman on the subject of "little
> > > > > > > > dogs" kynaria, homosexual initiates. Jesus is quoted as saying that it
> > > > > > > > was not Herodian practice, kalos, to give the sacred bread of Nazirite
> > > > > > > > Gentiles, tekna, to the "little dogs". Helena replies that it was the
> > > > > > > > practice of monastic Gentiles, paidia, "under the table" to share the
> > > > > > > > crumbs of sacred bread after the meal with homosexuals, so having some
> > > > > > > > fellowship with them. Jesus' answer to her meant that she was
> > > > > > > > permitted to act as a lay levite, a teacher, with the congregation.
> > > > > > > > Her role as the head of Asher was to be the Mother Sarah to
> > > > > > > > proselytes, who included the eunuchs of the Herodian court."
>
> > > > > > > If she seriously thinks that "keleb" translates directly to
> > > > > > > "homosexual", then Thiering's homophobia is showing. The Hebrew word
> > > > > > > "keleb" can mean:
>
> > > > > > > 1) dog
>
> > > > > > > a) dog (literal)
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> > > > > > > b) contempt or abasement (figurative)
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> > > > > > > c) of pagan sacrifice
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> > > > > > > d) of male cult prostitute (figurative)
>
> > > > > > > Notice that male cult prostitute is at the bottom of the list and that
> > > > > > > it says "male cult prostitute" and is not referring to natural
> > > > > > > homosexuality but to those who protituted themselves out for cultic
> > > > > > > homosexual behavior.
>
> > > > > > > Once again, Thiering proves herself to be acrackpotwho strays so far
> > > > > > > from reality that she could almost be your twin. Note I said,
> > > > > > > "almost" (you stray from reality much more frequently - I seriously
> > > > > > > doubt Thiering thinks herself to be Spock from Star Trek).- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > Yet, right from the start you are off on the wrong foot
> > > > > > because Thiering lexicon/pesher is Greek, not Hebrew.
> > > > > > So, she is working from "kyōn".
>
> > > > > Then she never should have referred to Deuteronomy, since the Torah
> > > > > (where Deuteronomy is found) was written originally in Hebrew.
> > > > > Apparently, those on "the wrong foot" is BT and you, Soggy. Once
> > > > > again, you only prove BT to be a crack-pot.
>
> > > > Yet -
>
> > > > The writer of Rev 22:15 shares the Essene prejudice that
> > > > sex is defiling and sees Deuteronomy 23:18 thru that
> > > > prism. Further, Asher Gentiles spoke Greek in the synagogue
> > > > and used the Septuagint.
>
> > > > The Descendants of Jesus:
> > > > Decoding Revelation Parts C and Dhttp://www.pesherofchrist.infinitesoulutions.com/index10.html
>
> > > > "The Book of Revelation divides itself naturally, by means of its sets
> > > > of 7, into four parts, A, B, C, and D. The dates that each part deals
> > > > with can be discovered from the dates of events that are described.
> > > > The parts do not appear in the book in order - Part B precedes Part A
> > > > because of its greater value at a certain stage. The different parts,
> > > > with the dates they cover, are:
>
> > > > Part B 1:1 - 8:5 44 AD to 51 AD
> > > > Part A 8:6 - 14:5 1 AD to 44 AD
> > > > Part C 14:6 - 19:21 54 AD to 74 AD
> > > > Part D 20:1 - 22:21 100 AD to 114 AD"
>
> > > > -----
>
> > > > BT? In Papias: who is Aristion?http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/4949
>
> > > > "On Dylan's question previously asked, whether John the Elder was the
> > > > same as
> > > > John Mark, Eusebius himself was confused on this question, because of
> > > > the
> > > > smooth way in which the monastic celibate order of John Mark, that of
> > > > Dan,
> > > > was taken over by the eremitical Gentiles of Asher under James Niceta
> > > > and
> > > > subsequently John Aquila. The book of Revelation, written by Asher
> > > > Gentiles,
> > > > abolishes Dan, leaving it out of the list of "tribes" (ascetic orders)
> > > > in
> > > > 7:4-8. James Niceta is shown "eating the little book" - taking over
> > > > John's
> > > > gospel - in ch. 10. John Mark was called Elder (presbyteros) in the
> > > > introduction to his 2nd and 3rd epistles in the NT, but when John
> > > > Aquila
> > > > took up his position he became John the Elder. See Jesus of the
> > > > Apocalypse,
> > > > note 9 to ch. 8 for the fuller explanation."
>
> > > "Yet", you completely dodged the importance of being shown BT
> > > referencing the Torah in comparison with the Greek of Revelation and
> > > that she completely ignored the fact that the Torah is written in
> > > Hebrew.
>
> > > BT's "work" is full or errors, Soggy. It's time you came to that
> > > realization.
>
> > Yet, so far you are incapable of pointing out any
> > Thiering errors, Lazy. Your bad; want to try again?
>
> Are you kidding? I just did point out Thiering errors. Did you miss
> it? Or are you just lying about it all...?
>
> She uses Deuteronomy as a reference for what's in Revelation, yet
> doesn't take in consideration the Hebrew meaning of "dog" (which
> doesn't translate the way she wants it to).
>...
> It's apparent to everyone here but you: Thiering gets it wrong. A
> lot.
>
> Now, do you want to continue to live in denial that I pointed out
> Thiering errors or do you want to finally admit that at least some of
> BT's "pesher" is full of holes?
The above is a perfect example of Kelly's obtuseness; she
does not "get" the "prism" thru which the writer of Rev 22:15
views Deut 23:18; her argument about Hebrew meaning of
"dog" is irrelevant as I already showed.
-----
The pesher and the surface text.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/16
"I seem to recall a historical precedent for 12 members. But don't let
that
prevent you multiplying.
Geoff takes us to the theory behind it all in citing Revelation. I'll
take
that up, and then ask him, if he would, to give other examples of a
surface
text that seem to him to be not at all obvious.
For Revelation, the surface reader was intended to take it all as
something
the inspired seer saw, about what was really going on in heaven. The
'babe
in Christ' of the hellenistic period would believe that this was the
way
heaven was, just as he or she believed in the miracles. A close
reading or
listening (usually listening, in church) might make him wonder about
the
similarities to events on earth, and perhaps start him on the road to
platonic theory, that what was done in heaven was reproduced on earth
(Matt
16:19, reversed).
If he (not she) was an insider of the Qumran sect, he would recognise
many
of the practices of heaven as exactly the same as those of the Qumran
ascetics, and then understand that the book was giving an account of
what
was happening on earth, here and now. Examples:
1) Rev 6:13-14. 'Who are these, clothed in white robes?..... These are
they
who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their
robes and
made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'
Josephus, War 2,123. '(The Essenes) make a point...of always being
dressed
in white'.
Temple Scroll 45: 8, 15 (following various forms of physical
defilement),
'he shall wash his garments and bathe on the first day and on the
third day
he shall wash his garments and bathe, and after sunset he shall enter
the
sanctuary'. (The addition of washing in the blood of the Lamb,
although
not a sound laundry practice, comes from the Christian substitution of
the
atoning sacrifice of Christ for the Qumran ascetic rites.)
2) Rev 14:3-4. 'Lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144
000...No
one could learn that song except the 144 000 who had been redeemed
from the
earth.It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they
are
chaste.'
Temple Scroll 45:10-12 '....They shall not enter my sanctuary in their
impure uncleanness and render it unclean. No man who has had sexual
intercourse with his wife shall enter anywhere into the city of the
sanctuary where I cause my name to abide, for three days.'
Josephus, War 2,120. 'Marriage they (the Essenes) disdain'.
3) The four horsemen of the Apocalypse (Rev 6) really come down to
earth
when it is noticed that one of them is green (6:8, chloros). The
translation
'pale horse' is to keep it credible. The four then have the colours of
the
four seasons, green for spring, red for autumn, white for summer (Jn
4:35
'the fields are ...white for harvest'), black for winter. The solar
calendar
of the sect centred on the four seasons, at the equinoxes and
solstices. The
riders are the priests assigned to the four seasons, corresponding to
the
Four Living Creatures of Ezekiel. (The rider of the green horse was
called
'Death' - a name in the pesher for the Magians, whose monastic system
was
indicated by 666. They practised excommunications as a spiritual
death.)
Further to these connections between Revelation and the Temple Scroll
from
Qumran, could I add the point that, in my view, proves that Rev was
dependent on the Temple Scroll. Both works plan a New Jerusalem,
foursquare,
with 3 gates in each wall. The 12 'tribes' (ascetic orders) were to
enter
through the 12 gates. Rev 7 names the 12 tribes, in an order different
from
TS and OT. If the Rev list is read as beginning at the SW corner,
while the
TS list is read from the NE corner (the Christians being west-
oriented), 6
of the tribes are in exactly the same place, 4 more are directly
exchanged
with each other, and only two are different. I think this goes beyond
coincidence. Details in 'Jesus of the Apocalypse'.
On the question of Internet sources, there is a very good, but not
complete,
set of gnostic texts at
http://www.gnosis.org/library/
B.T."
Peace (after the Quaker fashion),
David Christainsen
Newton, Mass. USA
Sir David
> The pesher <FLUSH>
Carl rides his hobbyhorse