Consider Joppa, aka Jaffa, aka suburban Tel Aviv
Matt Giwer
city of Aethiopeia? What are Semitic speaking Phoenicians doing in Greek
mythology?
For certain Achaean culture was from Greece through all of Anatolia. That is
a significant extent without any particular reason to assume it did not cross
the Dardanelles and continue a few more miles down the coast of the Med.
Without taking sides in the Troy debate they are clearly excavating an Achaean
city. The pantheon of their gods extends from Greece to Persia by their names
alone and by their stories down into Egypt including all of bibleland and the
"Levant" which always strikes me as a strange name signifying nothing unique
needing a separate name.
Here is Joppa of Greek myth dating credibly from early 1st millennium BC
existing as a suburb of Tel Aviv. There it is not only in the heartland of
Semitic languages but also likely under Egyptian rule at the time. Were the
myth of Andromeda and Cassiopeia taken as history then the failure to mention
Egyptian rule would negate the idea of it being history as it does the OT. Nor
does anyone look for the "real" Andromeda and Cassiopeia as fools do for
"real" bible characters.
It is difficult to argue for unalloyed Aryan and Semitic languages. Koine
should not be surprising at all. Nor should Alexander's export of Greek
culture be viewed as totally alien to the region which includes bibleland.
Family connections between cities in Greece and bibleland should not be
surprising. Nor do we need to invent a reason for bibleland people showing up
in Alexandria. One would rather have to explain their absence.
Similarly we have the expansion of Judaism into North Africa and Greece and
Italy. This is attested to with exaggerated numbers but percentages are not
given so we have no idea what the numbers really meant. But that it did happen
is clear. And that Christianity is just one more cult of Judaism is not in
question either. In fact we find Judaism codifying itself in the Mishna at
the same time Christianity invents codification. In other words, codification
was to establish differences among the similarities.
Before Alexander the Greeks credited Egypt for teaching them damn near
everything. After discarding the impression from religious tradition that
bibleland was exotic and different there is very little that appears to need
an explanation. All these appeals to "the hill country" make it seem like the
lowlands were hugely far from the hills just as Exodus makes the Promised Land
seem 40 years away from Egypt instead of one week.
Sure one can say the hills are 15 miles from the coast but they are zero
miles from the plains. Even the believer economics says the grain was grown on
the plains and the sheep and olives and grapes were grown on the hills. Where
the plains stop the hills begin. They are not separated.
Nor do we find a way to easily discount the assertion of kinship between the
chief high priest Jonathan with the Spartans when we find the arguably Greek
city of Joppa in mythology 20 miles or so from Jerusalem.
I guess I need to get a reindoctrination in the uniqueness of the OT before I
can work up a healthy surprise that the OT first appears in Greek, the Chief
High Priest is Greek and Koine Greek being an admixture of Hellenistic and
Semitic constructions. And on top of that this all appears in the Greek city
of Egypt which taught the Greeks all they knew and that, surprise, surprise,
the "bible" culture of a small part of this culture from Greece to the Nile
just happens to have been part of it all instead of standing alone and unique
as ONLY religious tradition says it was.
Perhaps the entire Maccabe war can be reduced to a disagreement on whether or
not it is lawful to carve the stone which represents the god into a human-like
image.
--
What is the difference between testing a god who will not be tested and a
god that is of stone?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4194
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/ a8
Tue Oct 6 05:33:07 EDT 2009
igor
Even if Jonathan was part Spartan, it would not mean that the rest of
Spartans were the children of Abraham, so your assertion stops right
here.
The only way for the Spartans to be the seed of Abraham is if a
Phoenician tribe conquered Laconians, assimilated with greek culture
and become Spartans. This scenario is quite possible if you account
for the great upheaval during 7-8th centuries BC in Laconia, near
proximity and extensive contacts with Phoenicians for as long as
Creeks existed.
igor
> Even if Jonathan was part Spartan, it would not mean that the rest of
> Spartans were the children of Abraham, so your assertion stops right
> here.
> The only way for the Spartans to be the seed of Abraham is if a
> Phoenician tribe conquered Laconians, assimilated with greek culture
> and become Spartans. This scenario is quite possible if you account
> for the great upheaval during 7-8th centuries BC in Laconia, near
> proximity and extensive contacts with Phoenicians for as long as
> Creeks existed.
>
>
The tribe of Dan is suspected by biblical scholars to have evolved
from the Denyen, one of the groups of Sea Peoples;[10] thus the reason
that in the time period in which the Book of Judges is set, the Song
of Deborah describes the tribe of Dan as residing in ships, and
another narrative in Judges describes the tribe as being without a
fixed abode until conquering Laish. The Philistines are also regarded
by scholars as having been one of the Sea Peoples, specifically the
Peleset, and so the particular enmity between the Philistines and Dan,
as portrayed in the narrative of Samson, could simply be one in which
each group views the other as traitors. In a similar vein to the
etymological link between the term Philistine and the term Peleset,
Denyen is thought by scholars to be the origin of the name Dan, the
biblical etymology being a later guess at the name's origin.
igor
Matt Giwer
> On Oct 6, 3:41 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> Why does Greek mythology place Andromeda and Cassiopeia in Joppa, the capital
>> city of Aethiopeia? What are Semitic speaking Phoenicians doing in Greek
>> mythology?
>> For certain Achaean culture was from Greece through all of Anatolia. That is
>> a significant extent without any particular reason to assume it did not cross
>> the Dardanelles and continue a few more miles down the coast of the Med.
>> Without taking sides in the Troy debate they are clearly excavating an Achaean
>> city. The pantheon of their gods extends from Greece to Persia by their names
>> alone and by their stories down into Egypt including all of bibleland and the
>> "Levant" which always strikes me as a strange name signifying nothing unique
>> needing a separate name.
>> Here is Joppa of Greek myth dating credibly from early 1st millennium BC
>> existing as a suburb of Tel Aviv. There it is not only in the heartland of
>> Semitic languages but also likely under Egyptian rule at the time. Were the
>> myth of Andromeda and Cassiopeia taken as history then the failure to mention
>> does anyone look for the "real" Andromeda and Cassiopeia as fools do for
>> "real" bible characters.
>> It is difficult to argue for unalloyed Aryan and Semitic languages. Koine
>> should not be surprising at all. Nor should Alexander's export of Greek
The last time I get a lecture on Jewish law being child thereof passes
through the mother. How many Spartans became such through a few generations of
matrilineal descent would establish how many there were IF it is only the
obvious mechanism no one can really object to as it is an innocuous route.
Clearly, as Abraham is a myth no one can be descended from a myth. But as a
Helene presence in the region going back to at least the early first
millennium BC we cannot clearly say this connection arose after Alexander. I
hope this is clear.
> The only way for the Spartans to be the seed of Abraham is if a
> Phoenician tribe conquered Laconians, assimilated with greek culture
> and become Spartans. This scenario is quite possible if you account
> for the great upheaval during 7-8th centuries BC in Laconia, near
> proximity and extensive contacts with Phoenicians for as long as
> Creeks existed.
Please, I do not have to account for it more than I suggested. I simply took
it at face value and suggested a method by which it could be explained. But
your "only" way appears to assume there really was an Abraham and to that I
can only suggest less gullibility. In the real world there are certainly other
possibilities but unfortunately we have no idea when this Abraham was invented
or what it meant when it was invented and when it came to be taken as someone
who literally did exist whose biography is in Genesis.
>> I guess I need to get a reindoctrination in the uniqueness of the OT before I
>> can work up a healthy surprise that the OT first appears in Greek, the Chief
>> High Priest is Greek and Koine Greek being an admixture of Hellenistic and
>> Semitic constructions. And on top of that this all appears in the Greek city
>> of Egypt which taught the Greeks all they knew and that, surprise, surprise,
>> the "bible" culture of a small part of this culture from Greece to the Nile
>> just happens to have been part of it all instead of standing alone and unique
>> as ONLY religious tradition says it was.
>> Perhaps the entire Maccabe war can be reduced to a disagreement on whether or
>> not it is lawful to carve the stone which represents the god into a human-like
>> image.
>> --
>> What is the difference between testing a god who will not be tested and a
>> god that is of stone?
>> -- The Iron Webmaster, 4194
>> http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/a8
>> Tue Oct 6 05:33:07 EDT 2009
--
Religion puts food on the tables of priests. This
is the sole purpose of religion.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4186
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/nizgas3.html a4
Wed Oct 7 01:18:14 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer
> <rubish>
>> Even if Jonathan was part Spartan, it would not mean that the rest of
>> Spartans were the children of Abraham, so your assertion stops right
>> here.
>> The only way for the Spartans to be the seed of Abraham is if a
>> Phoenician tribe conquered Laconians, assimilated with greek culture
>> and become Spartans. This scenario is quite possible if you account
>> for the great upheaval during 7-8th centuries BC in Laconia, near
>> proximity and extensive contacts with Phoenicians for as long as
>> Creeks existed.
> The tribe of Dan is suspected by biblical scholars
There are two newsgroups listed, s.h.a and s.a. Neither of those is regarding
bible scholarship and as such bible scholars have no standing in either.
Justly so as there is no proper definition nor credentials required to make a
claim to that title.
> to have evolved
> from the Denyen, one of the groups of Sea Peoples;[10]
As the imaginations of some believers is not of interest I have no interest
in doing other than ridiculing such nonsense.
Should you ever be interested in the proper presentation of the physical
evidence which might connect them, please do so. Until then an appeal to any
authority is a logical fallacy not to mention unidentified and presumably
unqualified authorities.
--
What is the difference between testing a god who will not be tested and a
god that is of stone?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4194
http://www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml a16
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. a16
Wed Oct 7 01:32:45 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer
with the subject line.
Why do you bother promoting your silly religious superstitions here?
--
Hodie Nonis Octobribus MMIX est
-- The Ferric Webcaesar
http://www.giwersworld.org/palestine/answers.phtml a9
Wed Oct 7 02:36:19 EDT 2009
igor
Then explain why Canaanite wifes of Abraham were mothers to many
originators of Israelite tribes, like Don for example.
> Clearly, as Abraham is a myth no one can be descended from a myth. But as a
> Helene presence in the region going back to at least the early first
> millennium BC we cannot clearly say this connection arose after Alexander. I
> hope this is clear.
>
> > The only way for the Spartans to be the seed of Abraham is if a
> > Phoenician tribe conquered Laconians, assimilated with greek culture
> > and become Spartans. This scenario is quite possible if you account
> > for the great upheaval during 7-8th centuries BC in Laconia, near
> > proximity and extensive contacts with Phoenicians for as long as
> > Creeks existed.
>
> Please, I do not have to account for it more than I suggested. I simply took
> it at face value and suggested a method by which it could be explained. But
> your "only" way appears to assume there really was an Abraham and to that I
> can only suggest less gullibility. In the real world there are certainly other
> possibilities but unfortunately we have no idea when this Abraham was invented
> or what it meant when it was invented and when it came to be taken as someone
> who literally did exist whose biography is in Genesis.
>
>
You admit that you have no idea but keep yapping about things that you
have no idea about.
igor
According to the Torah, the tribe consisted of descendants of Dan a
son of Jacob and Bilhah, Rachel's maidservant (Genesis 30:4). In the
Biblical account, Dan is one of the two children of Bilhah, a Rachel's
handmaid, one of Jacob's wives, the other child of Bilhah being
Naphtali. Scholars see this as indicating that the authors saw Dan and
Naphtali as being not of entirely Israelite origin (hence descendants
of handmaids rather than of full wives).[7] It is worth noting that
the territory of the handmaid tribes happens to be the territory
closest to the north and eastern borders of Canaan; they were the most
exposed to Israel's immediate enemies - Assyria and Aram.[8]
igor
Religious person here is you. 99% of your posts are about Jews,
religion and present day Israeli-Palestinian politics, there is
nothing else, NOTHING!!!
igor
As far as ancient history goes, your posts have no value in this
group, because you have no knowledge of ancient history apart from
whatever history is in bible.
Matt Giwer
You apparently are unable to grasp I am discussing the available evidence in
an effort to dispel the nonsensical religious traditions you thumpers espouse.
--
There are only two kinds of Jews. Those who
love Israel and those who hate themselves.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4179
http://www.giwersworld.org/palestine/answers.phtml a9
Thu Oct 8 01:19:04 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer
I have posted here for some fifteen years. You are a newbie. I post on the
bible to demonstrate the you bewildered people that there is no history in the
bible. It is only believers who insist it be discussed. It is only believers
who insist on the religious tradition that it does contain history.
--
It is an open secret that priests are atheists.
They know they are lying.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4188
http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtml a2
Thu Oct 8 01:23:35 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer
>> The last time I get a lecture on Jewish law being child thereof passes
>> through the mother. How many Spartans became such through a few generations of
>> matrilineal descent would establish how many there were IF it is only the
> Then explain why Canaanite wifes of Abraham were mothers to many
> originators of Israelite tribes, like Don for example.
I only used what Jews tell me. I did not say it was rational. If you really
want to know, ask them.
...
>> Please, I do not have to account for it more than I suggested. I simply took
>> it at face value and suggested a method by which it could be explained. But
>> your "only" way appears to assume there really was an Abraham and to that I
>> can only suggest less gullibility. In the real world there are certainly other
>> possibilities but unfortunately we have no idea when this Abraham was invented
>> or what it meant when it was invented and when it came to be taken as someone
>> who literally did exist whose biography is in Genesis.
> You admit that you have no idea but keep yapping about things that you
> have no idea about.
I said I am not required to explain how what he claimed in fact occurred. Nor
are you required to explain why his enemies who are the apparent authors of
the stories did not say his claim was false.
In any other culture we take such statements to mean we have something new to
learn about that culture. When it comes to the bible believers say it cannot
be true if it conflicts with their religious traditions.
--
The boundary between the sciences and the humanities is unbreechable. Any
scientist can obtain a degree in any of the fine arts if he is interested.
The opposite is not possible.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4182
http://www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml a16
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. a16
Thu Oct 8 01:31:05 EDT 2009
Martin Edwards
--
As through this world I've rambled, I've met plenty of funny men,
Some rob you with a sixgun, some with a fountain pen.
Woody Guthrie
Matt Giwer
..
> Jacob, not Abraham.
> According to the Torah, the tribe consisted of descendants of Dan a
> son of Jacob and Bilhah, Rachel's maidservant (Genesis 30:4). In the
> Biblical account, Dan is one of the two children of Bilhah, a Rachel's
> handmaid, one of Jacob's wives, the other child of Bilhah being
> Naphtali. Scholars see this as indicating that the authors saw Dan and
> Naphtali as being not of entirely Israelite origin (hence descendants
> of handmaids rather than of full wives).[7] It is worth noting that
> the territory of the handmaid tribes happens to be the territory
> closest to the north and eastern borders of Canaan; they were the most
> exposed to Israel's immediate enemies - Assyria and Aram.[8]
What conceivable relevance does fiction have on this discussion?
--
The Holocaust is no worse then Iran having an atom bomb.
Israel says so.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4191
http://www.giwersworld.org/palestine/answers.phtml a9
Fri Oct 9 00:04:26 EDT 2009
Kendall K Down
Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> I have posted here for some fifteen years.
And for the whole of that time you have been rejected by real
archaeologists, historians and scholars; your anti-semitism has been
revealed and your utter lack of either sense or knowledge exposed.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
Martin Edwards
> In message <4acd7805$0$5113$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com>
> Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> I have posted here for some fifteen years.
>
> And for the whole of that time you have been rejected by real
> archaeologists, historians and scholars; your anti-semitism has been
> revealed and your utter lack of either sense or knowledge exposed.
>
> Ken Down
>
Matt Giwer
> In message <4acd7805$0$5113$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com>
> Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> I have posted here for some fifteen years.
> And for the whole of that time you have been rejected by real
> archaeologists, historians and scholars;
Homes of non-Jews slated for destruction by the "REAL"
archaeologists, historians and scholars over the piltdown man of Silwan, the
City of David.
> your anti-semitism has been revealed and your utter lack of either sense
> or knowledge exposed.
http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/
--
Atheism dignifies theism. There is no special name for
those who do not believe in faeries.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4190
http://www.giwersworld.org/palestine/answers.phtml a9
Tue Nov 10 01:17:12 EST 2009
Martin Edwards
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Kendall K Down wrote:
>
>> In message <4acd7805$0$5113$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com>
>> Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I have posted here for some fifteen years.
>
>> And for the whole of that time you have been rejected by real
>> archaeologists, historians and scholars;
>
> Homes of non-Jews slated for destruction by the "REAL"
> archaeologists, historians and scholars over the piltdown man of Silwan,
> the
> City of David.
>
Yemen was about 285 acres. The Queen of Sheba may have existed, but
would she even have heard of "Jerusalem" or whatever it may really have
been called?
Matt Giwer
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Kendall K Down wrote:
>>> In message <4acd7805$0$5113$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com>
>>> Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> I have posted here for some fifteen years.
>>> And for the whole of that time you have been rejected by real
>>> archaeologists, historians and scholars;
>> Homes of non-Jews slated for destruction by the "REAL"
>> archaeologists, historians and scholars over the piltdown man of Silwan,
>> the City of David.
> Also the said city was only about ten acres at the time. Saba in the Yemen
> was about 285 acres. The Queen of Sheba may have existed, but would she
> even have heard of "Jerusalem" or whatever it may really have been called?
As I have said several times I cannot tell the "history" in the OT
from the history in Xena, Warrior Princess. There isn't much point in
speculating and there is always the likelihood some thumper will try to
argue a point made in jest.
That said, the riches of Yemen can be established over the millenia
from failed attempts to conquer it by Egypt, Alexander and Rome. The trade
in incense was a wealthmaker until Christians dictated cheap funerals.
Records are so sparse we can only guess why but seems to me wealth bought
the best mercenaries available for defense. Records are so sparse the jewish
kings mentioned in the Koran are not to be found in jewish records which
raises its own questions.
But the Koran and Mohamed coming from this land of mercenaries
protecting Yemen and their own slice of the spice trade into Mesopotamia and
points east does put that "sudden" expansion in a different light.
As to a 1000BC or so Jerusalem, it more credible that the old inland
spice route was via the holders at the time of the Nabotean trade route
along the eastern banks of the Jordan. If it had existed and if she had
heard of it there is no reason why she would have given a rat's ass about
it. Even with a magical great following it is on the wrong side of the
Jordan to defend the most important part as it nears Syria.
Even if it had existed all the stories of great wealth are belied by
the archaeology which finds only dirt farmers and goatherds. There is no way
a biblical Israel could have existed. And with dirt farmers and goatherds
the term "israel" has no meaning save perhaps to mean peasants or savages.
--
"As a discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." -- Godwin's Law
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4196
http://www.haaretz.com What is Israel really like? http://www.jpost.com a7
Tue Nov 10 06:36:18 EST 2009
Kendall K Down
Matt Giwer <matt@localhost> wrote:
> As I have said several times I cannot tell the "history" in the OT
> from the history in Xena, Warrior Princess.
That may well be true, but as Matt the Pratt doesn't even know about
the relationship between Coptic and ancient Egyptian, the problem is
not the history in the Old Testament, but the ignorance and stupidity
of Matt the Pratt.