Giwerian Gobbledygook, Or Matt's foray into Greek
Tom P
September, 2009. For some reason, after my post of September 24
reproduced below, Giwer's only response consisted of . . . well, nothing.
I thought Giwer should be reminded of his ignorance and given a chance
to redeem himself in a carefully constructed reply based upon evidence
which truly exists. What say you, Giwer?
Matt Giwer wrote:
> Tom P wrote:
>> Matt Giwer wrote:
> ...
Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> where you can find it but the translation via the Greek uses
Ionatan and translates it as kinship rather than friendship. I can do a
text dump of my pdf version if you are interested. I can also put the
pdf version on my website if you would like to read it. I only have what
I have and if you would like to give an opinion and what I am using I am
happy to show you what I am working with. You want it? say the word.
>>> Of course I do know better than to get into a sectarian
squabble between translations. I have seen enough young women and
virgins to last me a life time.
>
Tom P replied:
>> Holy crap, Giwer! What kind of nincompoop are you? I laughed so
hard I almost retched.
>
Matt Giwer wrote:
> As anyone who has been on usenet more than a few months knows
statements like that are patent lies, I do not see why you wish to post
things like that.
>
> Do you think I care in ths list what you think? I do not even
assume you are capable of rational thought when your religion is
involved. You dedication to the traditions about this particular
religion belie your assertion of non-belief.
>
Tom P replied:
That's the best you can come back with, Giwer?
What makes you think records of your activity and bogus kook theories
are restricted to "this list," Giwer?
No lie there, Giwer. I laughed like hell when I read your
nincompoopery. I'm laughing now re-reading it!
You were refuted Giwer, by a retired truck driver. Your utter nonsense
and bogus kook theory was revealed for precisely the utter nonsense it is.
I notice you did not deny the truth of the short little lesson in Greek
Grammar I prepared for you, Giwer. Instead you chose to obfuscate and
change the subject. What was that you wrote about bait and switch not
being acceptable?
You made a totally inaccurate foray into Greek, Giwer. And you screwed
it all up, as most of us knew you would. You got caught red handed,
Giwer. So, let's make sure there are lots of archived copies of your
nonsense.
Address the issues in the parts your deleted, Giwer. To remind you of
their content, I restored them below. Try to keep your patented
Giwerian gobbledygook to a minimum, Giwer.
> Matt Giwer wrote:
> "I don't off hand know"
Tom P replied:
Anything much at all and you are running as fast as you can off of a
cliff here and are too dumb to know it, Giwer. But press on!
> Matt Giwer wrote:
> "where you can find it but the translation via the Greek uses Ionatan
and translates it as kinship rather than friendship. I can do a text
dump of my pdf version if you are interested. I can also put the pdf
version on my website if you would like to read it. I only have what I
have and if you would like to give an opinion and what I am using I am
happy to show you what I am working with. You want it? say the word."
>
> "Of course I do know better than to get into a sectarian squabble
between translations. I have seen enough young women and virgins to last
me a life time."
>
Tom P replied:
Holy crap, Giwer! What kind of nincompoop are you? I laughed so hard I
almost retched.
Pay attention here, Giwer. You will learn something. It will be
painful for you because you made an ass of yourself by posting 100% pure
falsehood concerning the translation of the Greek word spelled iota,
omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated
incorrectly as "Ionatan."
Are you so uninformed you don't know the difference between an omicron
and an omega, Giwer? Learning the Greek alphabet is not exactly a hard
to acquire skill.
Pay special attention here, Matt Giwer. Don't trust me, but go look
this up yourself. You will learn something new. Ancient Greek is an
inflected language. Modern English is not. That is important for what
follows, and is one of the reasons I, and every other student of
Classical Greek on this planet, knows with certainty your post above is
pure, unadulterated bullshit.
Since there is no other word spelled the same or even close in the Greek
lexicons I consulted, added to the fact that I read a bit of Rahlfs'
Greek text of Septuaginta and there found over 100 uses of the Greek
word spelled iota, omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, we will proceed
from that highly probable assertion.
That spelling of the Greek word iota, omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha,
nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated incorrectly as "Ionatan" occurs in
1 Maccabees 10:46; 12:1, 3, and, well, lots of places because Jonathan
Maccabee is a major character in Maccabees. But the Greek spelling is
always exactly the same, and I identify that fact for your benefit,
Giwer. That fact means something significant to students of Greek,
Giwer, because of the grammatical structure involved when declining
Greek nouns, pronouns, participles, adjectives, and the definite
article. Remember the inflected language bit, Giwer? If not, go back
and review.
But, Giwer, the Greek word spelled iota, omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha,
nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated incorrectly as "Ionatan" also
appears in Judges 18:30, 1 Samuel 13:3, 16, 22; 1 Samuel 14:1, 3, 4, 6,
8, 12, 13, 14, 17, 21, 27, 29, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 49; 1 Samuel
18:1, 2, 3, 4;1 Samuel 19:1, 2, 4, 6, 7; 1 Samuel 20:1, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10,
11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 25; 2 Samuel 1:4, 5, 12, 17; 2 Samuel 15:36; 1
Kings 1:42, 43; 1 Chronicles 2:32, 33; 1 Chronicles 27:32; Ezra 8:6;
Ezra 10:15; Nehemiah 12:11, 14, 35; Jeremiah 37:15, 20; Jeremiah 40:8
and some other places. Try to work your sillyass and bogus translations
of your mistakenly transliterated "Ionatan" in as "kinship" or
"friendship" in the context of every one of those usages in the Septuagint.
For example, Jeremiah 40:8 is translated into English as: ". . . Johann
and Jonathon the sons of Kareah . . . If we use Matt Giwer's bogus
translation, we get: ". . . Johann and 'kinship' the sons of Kareah . . ."
Let's try 1 Samuel 3:16 translated into English as: "Saul and his son
Jonathon, and the troops who remained with them . . ." Translate the
Greek word spelled iota, omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you,
Giwer, transliterated incorrectly as "Ionatan" and defined as "kinship"
and we get more Giwerian gobbledygook, viz.: "Saul and his son
'kinship,' and the troops who remained with them . . ."
The translation of 1 Samuel 13:3 is also amusing when one inserts
Giwer's bogus translation of "kinship" to the Greek word spelled iota,
omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated
incorrectly as "Ionatan." In English, 1 Samuel 13:3 is rendered as:
"Jonathon smote the Philistine . . ." Insert the Giwerian gibberish
translation and we get: "'Kinship' smote the Philistine . . ." Good
job, Giwer!
Anyway, I actually found at least 108 occurrences in the Septuagint of
the Greek word spelled iota, omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which
you, Giwer, transliterated incorrectly as "Ionatan."
There is a bit of an insurmountable problem here for you Giwer. Your
insurmountable problem is that the Greek word spelled iota, omega, nu,
alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated incorrectly as
"Ionatan" is always spelled the same no matter where it is used in Greek
sentences. The two usages of that exact word spelled exactly the same
way in the same sentence but using different grammatical constructions
in Greek occurs in Septuaginta at 1 Samuel 13:22 precisely illustrates
my point.
The first instance in 1 Samuel 13:22 is the Greek preposition meta (mu,
epsilon, tau, alpha) followed by the Greek word spelled iota, omega, nu,
alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated (badly) as
"Ionatan." Now when the Greek preposition "meta" takes the genitive
case, it is translated as "with," and when "meta" takes the accusative
case it means "after." The genitive is true in this case, as you can
tell from the English translation you use. In the very next phrase of
1 Samuel 13:22, the Greek word spelled iota, omega, nu, alpha, theta,
alpha, nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated incorrectly as "Ionatan," is
preceded directly by the Greek article spelled "tau, omega (with
circumflex)" which is the dative, singular, masculine form of the
article in Koine. Yet the Greek word spelled iota, omega, nu, alpha,
theta, alpha, nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated incorrectly as
"Ionatan," is spelled exactly the same way as when used previously in
the same sentence in the genitive case. How can that be, Giwer?
Classical Greek is an inflected language.
Just for fun, let's translate 1 Samuel 13:22 into English. "Thus on the
day of the battle, no sword or spear was to be found in the possession
of any of the troops with Saul and Jonathon; only Saul and Jonathon had
them." Now lets replace the proper name Jonathon with Matt Giwer's
bogus translation "kinship" of the Greek word spelled iota, omega, nu,
alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated incorrectly as
"Ionatan." "Thus on the day of the battle, no sword or spear was to be
found in the possession of any of the troops with Saul and 'kinship;'
only Saul and 'kinship' had them." Good job, Giwer!
Now, any student of Greek who has been at it for ten days or two weeks
can detect a problem here. You don't have that much experience studying
Greek, Giwer, so I will explain it to you. The problem is that the
Greek word spelled iota, omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you,
Giwer, transliterated incorrectly as "Ionatan" is an indeclinable noun.
Many Greek transliterations from other languages, Hebrew, in this
case, are indeclinable in Koine.
Want to know a little secret, Giwer? By thrashing about with your eyes
wide shut and getting every possible detail wrong, you blundered into an
Hebraism, which you might consider to be a "Semiticism." And you didn't
even know it, Giwer. Isn't that amazing?
Unfortunately, Giwer, though this Hebraism is a direct transliteration
of the Hebrew name Jonathon into Greek, it only occurs in the
Judeo-Christian corpus. So your Giwerian gobbledygook about
"Semiticisms" is once again disproved by the physical evidence of the
manuscripts. Read the etymology of the name Jonathan here, Giwer:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Jonathan. Note the Hebrew
part, Giwer.
Drill this fact into your inordinately thick skull, Giwer. The Greek
word spelled iota, omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you, Giwer,
transliterated incorrectly as "Ionatan" does not translate into
anything, Giwer. It is the indeclinable masculine proper name
"Jonathan" transliterated directly from Hebrew into Greek.
Contrary to your asinine and false assertion that "Greek uses Ionatan
and translates it as kinship rather than friendship," Greek doesn't
translate Jonathan into anything but the masculine proper name Jonathan.
I looked up Greek words for friendship and kinship and brotherhood and
there is nothing remotely resembling the Greek word spelled iota, omega,
nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated
incorrectly as "Ionatan."
Yet again, Matt Giwer, your assertions were false and your analysis of
your conclusions were false. Your entire post is bogus. Great job, Giwer!
And the fact that you cannot translate the Greek text into English has
no relevance, right Giwer?
Add to that fact that you, Giwer, wrote, "I don't off hand know where
you can find it but the translation via the Greek uses Ionatan and
translates it as kinship rather than friendship." Aren't you glad I do
know where to find such words and can even make a certain sense out of
your muddled Giwerian gobbledygook, Giwer.
I can't find any use anywhere in Greek of the Greek word spelled iota,
omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated
incorrectly as "Ionatan" outside of the Hebrew and Christian Bibles,
Giwer. And I looked, and unlike you, I know where to look.
So, Matt Giwer weighed in on the translation of a Greek text which is a
language Matt Giwer knows nothing about and this same Matt Giwer doesn't
know where to find the text or a reliable lexicon. Do maintain your
high levels of scholarship, Giwer. And you wonder why your posts elicit
gales of laughter. But do keep posting, Giwer. The world cannot laugh
to often or too long. And thank you for the gift of laughter, Giwer.
Gilgamesh
news:4ad37804$0$1615$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
> Matt Giwer and I had this exchange in the thread "The Delian Scam" in
> September, 2009. For some reason, after my post of September 24
> reproduced below, Giwer's only response consisted of . . . well, nothing.
>
> I thought Giwer should be reminded of his ignorance and given a chance to
> redeem himself in a carefully constructed reply based upon evidence which
> truly exists. What say you, Giwer?
When the trolls are tied of feeding don't poke them
jerry warner
Tom P wrote:
> Matt Giwer and I had this exchange in the thread "The Delian Scam" in
> September, 2009. For some reason, after my post of September 24
> reproduced below, Giwer's only response consisted of . . . well, nothing.
>
> I thought Giwer should be reminded of his ignorance and given a chance
> to redeem himself in a carefully constructed reply based upon evidence
> which truly exists. What say you, Giwer?
>
> Matt Giwer wrote:
> > Tom P wrote:
> >> Matt Giwer wrote:
> > ...
>
> Matt Giwer wrote:
> >>> where you can find it but the translation via the Greek uses
> Ionatan and translates it as kinship rather than friendship. I can do a
> text dump of my pdf version if you are interested. I can also put the
> pdf version on my website if you would like to read it. I only have what
> I have and if you would like to give an opinion and what I am using I am
> happy to show you what I am working with. You want it? say the word.
> >>> Of course I do know better than to get into a sectarian
> squabble between translations. I have seen enough young women and
> virgins to last me a life time.
> >
> Tom P replied:
> >> Holy crap, Giwer! What kind of nincompoop are you? I laughed so
> hard I almost retched.
Hey Saint Moron: "retched" begins with a "w" as in "wretch"?
some much for your experteez, or is it expertease?!
jerry warner
Gilgamesh wrote:
Can any of you Holy Joe's spell ?
I realse spelling is not important in your tribe .....
Martin Edwards
incorrectly. Be not unequally yoked.
--
As through this world I've rambled, I've met plenty of funny men,
Some rob you with a sixgun, some with a fountain pen.
Woody Guthrie
Gilgamesh
news:4AD41661...@mchsi.com...
Yeah I need to change my news reader.
Ever since I installed Office 2007 the only spell checker available in
Outlook Express is French.
But then again - Perhaps the trolls should be tied.
And I resent being called a Holy Joe - I'm a Fundamentalist Atheist. ;-)
>
>
>
Matt Giwer
That is why I ignore him unless he comes up with something new.
--
Government is a necessary evil. Religion is an unnecessary evil.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4187
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/nizgas3.html a4
Tue Oct 13 02:57:50 EDT 2009
Tom P
exposed for the nincompoopery they are.
Tom P
To retch is to vomit or to heave. It is a verb. The derivation is
Middle English from Old English from a root which means to spit.
A wretch is a contemptible, vile, miserable, unhappy, unfortunate
person. It is a noun. The derivation of wretch is Old High German from
a root meaning to drive out.
Buy a dictionary. Use it. Before you post nincompoopery.
"some [sic] much for your experteez [sic], or is it expertease [sic]?!
Tom P
> Gilgamesh wrote:
> > "Tom P" <th_om...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:4ad37804$0$1615$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
> >> Matt Giwer and I had this exchange in the thread "The Delian Scam"
> in September, 2009. For some reason, after my post of September 24
> reproduced below, Giwer's only response consisted of . . . well, nothing.
> >> I thought Giwer should be reminded of his ignorance and given a
> chance to redeem himself in a carefully constructed reply based upon
> evidence which truly exists. What say you, Giwer?
>
> > When the trolls are tied of feeding don't poke them
>
> That is why I ignore him unless he comes up with something new.
>
Do you deny posting your nonsense that the Greek word spelled iota,
omega, nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, which you, Giwer, transliterated
incorrectly as "Ionatan" was translated as "kinship" or "friendship"?
If you do, you lie, Giwer.
Was my analysis factual, Giwer? Does your mistransliterated word
"Ionatan" which actually represents the Greek word spelled iota, omega,
nu, alpha, theta, alpha, nu, appear in the Hebrew Bible and Septuagint
in the places I claimed?
You never did figure out what Greek word in that letter implied kinship.
Here is a hint. The Greek word literally means "sons of the same
mother." But that does present a whole new set of problems for you,
Giwer. Or do you wish to theorize that Jonathon Maccabee and the "King
of Sparta" the letter was addressed to were actually "sons of the same
mother"?
Good luck with that one, Giwer. And that is something new, Giwer. And
you will run from it, Giwer, just as you have run from every bit of
evidence introduced in the past four months.
Matt Giwer
That will keep him occupied for days.
--
The boundary between the sciences and the humanities is unbreechable. Any
scientist can obtain a degree in any of the fine arts if he is interested.
The opposite is not possible.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4182
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo2/ a11
Tue Oct 13 22:29:06 EDT 2009
Kendall K Down
jerry warner <jwa...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> Holy crap, Giwer! What kind of nincompoop are you? I laughed so
>> hard I almost retched.
> Hey Saint Moron: "retched" begins with a "w" as in "wretch"?
No it doesn't.
Ken Down
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