The Qumran Community had an Essene nucleus that morphed into the Ascetic Coalition
crunch
Qumran Community had an Essene nucleus. There had been an
integration of some Essenes with ascetics coming from the
Sadducees and Pharisees, who adapted their calendar and practices
to those of the Essenes, leading to a movement that developed
beyond classical Essenism. For this reason the word "ascetic"
is appropriate for the whole sect, while the Essene nucleus should
be recognised.
---
As was apparent from the start, the texts describe practices and
beliefs closely similar to the distinctive tenets of the Essenes
as given by their contemporary historians. These include community
of property, daily sacred meal for initiates only, sexual activity
regarded as defilement, ritual washings, stages of initiation,
strict hierarchy, and physical contact with the unclean forbidden.
When taken together with the additional data in the Scrolls, the
similarities lend themselves to a hypothesis that an original Essene
community had developed in the course of time by taking in men who
wished to follow the Essene ascetic rule but retain characteristic
doctrines of Sadducees and Pharisees (see Thiering's REDATING THE
TEACHER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS [Sydney: Theological Explorations, 1979]).
The Mishmarot fragments supply good evidence for the integration
of the lunar calendar of Pharisees and Sadducees with the Essene
solar one, retaining the 364-day year as its basis. The addition of
Pharisees and Sadducees would have brought some Essenes into a more
active involvement with the world than had been the case with
classical monastic Essenes.
excerpted from
B. Thiering, "The Qumran Sundial as an Odometer using Fixed Lengths
of Hours," DEAD SEA DISCOVERIES, vol 9, 3 (2002), p. 356
David Christainsen
Newton, Mass. USA
Sir David
> Since the beginning of research it has been apparent that the
Carl rides his hobbyhorse.
crunch
<UNFLUSH>
My name is David Christainsen; I do NOT ride
ANY hobbyhorse.
BTW Sir David is dreadfully obtuse. <grin>
-----
Since the beginning of research it has been apparent that the
---
-----
There is no doubt that the members of the Qumran sect
were in some way Essene, although certain features of
their life show that they went beyond the Essenes.
After discovery of the DSS [Dead Sea Scrolls] it was
obvious the Qumran sect represented the form of Judaism
out of which Christianity came.
There was a split, the Christians reacting strongly
against some aspects of Qumran practice, while retaining
basic organisation and some doctrines.
Specifically, the two groups, the Qumran sect and the
early Christians, lived in the same area at about the
same time. Both met every day for a sacred meal of
bread and wine to which only initiates were admitted.
Both practised community sharing of property, a most
unusual practice for Jews. Both valued celibacy, the
Qumran sect very strongly, the Christians moderately.
Both used baptism as a method of initiation, and both
looked forward to a coming apocalyptic crisis which
would usher in a new messianic age.
They used the same names for themselves: both called
themselves "the Way", "the New Covenant", "Sons of
Light". Both had a branch in Damascus, again using
the name "the Way". They were governed by bishops,
who had similar functions in both cases.
Each lived in expectation of a New Jerusalem, with an
identical architectural plan: foursquare, with three
gates on each side, for the twelve tribes. They have
numerous terms in common, with closely parallel passages
in both sets of literature.
Specifically, see 1QS 3:18-26 [Manual of Discipline]
with Ep. Barn. 18 [the two Ways of Light and Darkness]
2 Cor 6:14-7:1 has been recognized as "Qumranian in
both thought and style; a meteor fallen from the heaven
of Qumran into Paul's epistle". [Benoit in
Murphy-O'Connor, PAUL AND QUMRAN, p. 5, 1966]
---
excerpted from chapter 2
Thiering, B. E. (Barbara Elizabeth)
Jesus the man : decoding the real story of Jesus and Mary Magdalene
[please see Editorial & Customer Reviews on amazon.com]
-----
To narrow down to Christ, see "Meaning of Essene, and more on
Josephus"
Barbara Thiering
Sat Jun 23, 2001
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/200
"I think I can add something to the observations of David on the
Essenes and of Charles and Rowan on the Testimonium Flavianum.
a) On Essenes. I haven't so far amplified the meaning of the word in
this group, using it as a kind of shorthand. From the start it was
obvious that the absence of the word in Josephus' record of John the
Baptist had to be accounted for. In my 1979 book I argued that the
original Essene nucleus had diversified under the political stimulus
of the Roman occupation, taking in Pharisees and Sadducees who wanted
to adopt a stricter than usual ascetic discipline. When the NT speaks
of the 'sect' (hairesis) of the Pharisees and Sadducees, it means this
kind, not the orthodox kind.
Some Essenes had separated from the pacifist mainstream, becoming
militant when they saw the necessity for resisting the destruction of
Judaism by the Romans. It was they who led the re-occupation of Qumran
in its second phase after the earthquake of 31 BC, bringing in the
ascetic Pharisees and Sadducees who were also ready for militancy.
This new grouping became Josephus' 'fourth philosophy', later called
zealots. John the Baptist came into this group as a reformer, so is
not classed with Essenes.
The Essene nucleus remained as the most characteristic discipline. It
was seen from the start of research, and remains a fact, that the
distinctive practices of the Qumran community were also the
distinctive practices of the Essenes according to all the accounts.
Each of these was quite different from the practices of mainstream
Judaism. They had a daily sacred meal of bread and wine; they had
community of property; they practised celibacy in a monastic kind of
life. These Essene practices were also those of the first Christians,
leading to the 19th century observation of Renan that Christianity was
'an Essenism that succeeded'. The Scrolls added greatly to the
Christian connection, showing names and organisation that were the
same as those of the early Christians (the New Covenant, the Way, the
Church, bishops, New Jerusalem with the same plan, apocalyptic war,
theory of scripture, light-darkness dualism, etc etc etc).
They also showed the basic reason why the Qumran community was a
separated sect. They kept the solar calendar, which meant that their
festivals and all occasions were held on a different day from those of
the lunar calendar priesthood in Jerusalem.
So, in answer to David's question, it is both right and wrong to say
that Jesus was an Essene. His connection with Qumran is able to be
demonstrated in the ways that I have shown. But he came after several
stages of splitting from the 2nd-1st century BC Essene nucleus. The
zealots had split from the Essenes, John the Baptist had reformed the
zealots, and Jesus helped reform the severe asceticism and
exclusiveness of John the Baptist, bringing the Gentile element of the
party round to be pro-Roman.
b) On Josephus on Jesus. Would you see my message # 109, May 18 , in
which I argued that the youthful Josephus had been influenced by the
Jewish Christians, and with them had come to revere the figure of
Jesus, who was kept secluded in mystery and given a role like that of
cult figures who were common in the hellenistic world. Josephus' early
attitudes were first expressed in the Slavonic Josephus. Then when the
Xians refused to take part in the war, he turned against them. But in
his revised version he realised that he should note the existence of
this sect, the 'tribe of the Xians', and allowed some of the common
reverence for Jesus to be expressed.
Charles - the phrase translated 'a wise man, if indeed one ought to
call him a man' is ... sophos anêr, eige andra auton legein chrê.
(You'd find the Loeb editions better for everything.) Although of
course interpolations are quite possible, my concern is the
misdirected scepticism that has had the effect of denying the
historical worth of a large percentage of our sources. The placement
of the passage in Ant. 20,63-64 is understandable if Josephus himself
put it in as an afterthought. He was already placing things out of
date sequence, with Pilate (AD 26-36) put before the Paulina episode
of AD 19."
Peter Alaca
> On Jan 5, 3:29 pm, Sir David<sirda...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 5, 1:51 pm, Carl<pchristain...@yahoo.com> intoned:
>>
>>> Since the beginning of research it has been apparent that the
>>> Qumran<FLUSH>
>>
>> Carl rides his hobbyhorse.
>
> <UNFLUSH>
>
> My name is David Christainsen; I do NOT ride
> ANY hobbyhorse.
No. It rides you, and you don't even notice.
Now fuck off, sicko.
crunch
Kindly leave sci.archaeology and don't hit the door on
your way out.
Grow up, junior, or else people will disrespect you
as a man.
George
> Kindly leave sci.archaeology and don't hit the door on
> your way out.
>
> Grow up, junior, or else people will disrespect you
> as a man.
Which same will never happen to you. Respect is earned... as is the
approbation with which you and your posts are recieved here.
Go away and Peter will have no need to show his contempt for you
crunch
Maybe you should just keep quiet since you clearly
know nothing about Qumran archaeology and Qumran Studies.
Further, in the following please note the references to -
Yuval Peleg
Barbara Thiering
Roland De Vaux
Geza Vermes
Michael Stone
Norman Golb
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/78441912.html
"But hearing the dramatic recitation, Peleg [Israeli archaeologist],
40, rolls his eyes. 'There is no connection to the Essenes at this
site,' he tells me as a hawk circles above in the warming air. He
says
the scrolls had nothing to do with the settlement. Evidence for a
religious community here, he says, is unconvincing. He believes,
rather, that Jews fleeing the Roman rampage hurriedly stuffed the
documents into the Qumran caves for safekeeping. After digging at the
site for ten years, he also believes that Qumran was originally a
fort
designed to protect a growing Jewish population from threats to the
east. Later, it was converted into a pottery factory to serve nearby
towns like Jericho, he says."
Yet -
Answers to questions
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2747
"Barbara mentioned that the steps down into the cisterns indicates
immersion baptism. It well may but I have problems with this because
water at Qumran would be worth more than gold. I see the steps being
necessary for access and maintenance. If I was living there I would
not want anyone taking a ducking in the water no matter how much the
need for baptism. Also while I was in Jerusalem I visited an
excavation under a convent that led down to a beautiful stepped
cistern full of clear water said to be of Roman vintage.
Reply: The water in the Qumran stepped cisterns was not for drinking.
The deep round well, of a quite different shape, supplied enough
drinking water for the 150 people who lived there. The well could
easily be covered with a roof to prevent evaporation. It was
sheltered
within a group of roofed buildings. In addition to the well, the
aqueduct leading from the wady Qumran fed seven huge rectangular
cisterns, each the size of a suburban swimming pool or more. They lay
in open space. They were far more than were needed for drinking
water,
and too big to be covered to prevent evaporation. The Essenes at 11
am
each day came in from working outside in the heat and "bathed their
bodies in cold water" (J.W. 2, 129). That is, they had a refreshing
swim. Since the swim also prepared them for their sacred noon meal,
for which they dressed in cool white linen robes, it was equivalent
to
a purificatory bath, taken every day. Men of different grades used
different cisterns, since those of high grade must not make physical
contact with low grades. "A senior if but touched by a junior must
take a bath, as after contact with an alien."(J.W. 2, 150).
Consequently, the baths were also used for occasions of initiation,
expressing repentance, washing away sins, and a change to a new life.
Each was used for a different grade, the lowest in the largest
cistern
outside the south-west corner, the highest in those nearest to the
meal vestry and sanctuary. Any diagram of the Qumran grounds will
show
you where they were placed, and the way the aqueduct fed all of them.
It ran once a year, after the heavy winter rains, filling up the
water
systems for a year. It is now one of the most prominent features in
the ruins - running a long distance along the ground, about a cubit
wide, with raised sides of stones."
-----
Trouble in Qumran Archaeology and DSS Scholarship
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2592
"The claim that Qumran was not a monastic settlement was one of the
diversionary tactics.
De Vaux uncovered buildings that would not house a large number of
people, yet contained seven large rectangular cisterns, some bigger
than a
suburban swimming pool. You go right down into them and the top is way
above
your head, as I can testify.They had steps leading down to them,
grouped in
sets of three, not simply for ordinary entering. For actual drinking
water,
a deep round well - a different shape - was sufficient for the needs
of
numbers of people. Everything about the cisterns suggested a rite of
baptismal immersion. Such water washings were characteristic of the
Essenes as described by Josephus, and as referred to in the Scrolls -
they
were used as a means of admission and of exclusion of heretics (1QS
5:12-15).
In the outside room called the 'pantry', attached to a long east-west
hall on the outside of the old Israelite wall, were found stacks of
simple
bowls used for food, made of the same clay as other utensils. A
potter's
kiln was found, showing that the pottery was manufactured on the site.
Jars
that have been said to be made for perfume were for spices and plants
used
for medical purposes - the same sort of jars containing 100 pounds of
aloe
leaves, and jars of the resin myrrh , that we have been discussing
recently.
High writing desks with the remains of inkwells, with the ink dried
in
them, were found in the large square building, having fallen down from
a
floor above. In caves in the cliffs rising at the back of the plateau
were
found the Dead Sea Scrolls, written in a professional scribal hand.
They had
clearly been produced at the writing desks, in a scriptorium. The
cliff where they were found is about 5 minutes walk away from the
building,
across the neck of land that joins the cliff to the plateau. It is
absurd to
claim, as has been done, that the scrolls had nothing to do with the
building.
Everything pointed to a building corresponding to the monastic
lifestyle of the Essenes, as described by Josephus. The Scrolls speak
of practices
that distinguished the Essenes from others - daily sacred meal of
bread and
wine, community of property, baptisms for initiation, a celibate
lifestyle.
The graveyard contained over 1000 graves, of males, with one small
group
of females. They are explained by the second order of Essenes
described
by Josephus. The dynasts had to have wives.
Pliny writes in his Natural History, 5, 73, "On the west side of the
Dead Sea, but out of range of the noxious exhalations of the coast, is
the
solitary tribe of the Essenes . it has no women and has renounced all
sexual desire, has no money, and has only palm-trees for company.:" He
goes
on "Lying below these (infra hos) was formerly the town of Engedi,
second
only to Jerusalem in the fertility of its land and in its groves of
palm-
trees . Next comes Masada, a fortress on a rock ."
The phrase 'infra hos' has been the bone seized by those who resist
the connection of Qumran with Essenes. When Hirschfeld, exploring
sites in
the Wilderness of Judea, found the remains of a small set of
adjoining
rooms on the height above Engedi, it was argued that Pliny meant that
Essenes
lived on the height above Engedi, and below them on the plain was the
town.
Engedi is half way down the west coast of the Dead Sea, while Qumran
is at
its north-west corner. In reply, it has been argued that 'infra' is
used
in the sense of 'south of'. Pliny is picking out three equidistant
places.
The Essenes were long known to have been a kind of unorthodox Judaism
that was similar to early Christianity. The French scholar Renan said
in
the 19th century that Christianity was 'un essénisme réussit' (an
Essenism that
had succeeded). That concept was unpopular with both fundamentalist
Christians who believed that it had all been directly revealed from
heaven, and
with orthodox Jews, who would not admit any connection between Judaism
and
Christianity. The two groups allied on this matter.
An attempt was made to argue that Qumran was merely a manufacturing
site, or, in one case, a lodging place for travellers coming up the
Dead Sea
by boat. All the information listed above was simply ignored. Vermes
wrote derisively of this latter case, of 'the Qumran Hilton'.
The numerous coins found on the site are not a contra-indication, but
go with the Copper Scroll. While it was deserted after the earthquake
of
31 BC, Herod, who was collecting money from the Diaspora for his
building
projects (4Q159), used it to store the enormous amount of money that
was coming
in.
You will have noticed at the beginning of the quoted article that
mainstream scholars are accepting the Essene identification, which
means also the
monastic identification. In a recent documentary film, Michael Stone,
a Jewish Australian who was a leading Qumran scholar in Israel, said
that it is now accepted that Qumran was Essene.
Norman Golb insists that Qumran was a military fortress. So it was,
in
the second phase of occupation when it was used by the zealots, the
writers of the War Scroll. But not only military. Monasteries in the
ancient
world became secret bases for military action. You only have to look
at the
rows of skulls, war trophies, in the underground chamber of the
monastery
of St Theodosius outside Bethlehem to understand that.
I have been cheered recently to be told of organisational changes
which mean that the third phase is beginning. The first phase was the
suppression
of DSS-Christian connections by Christian fundamentalists, the next
the
suppression of DSS-Christian connections by Jews. The third is the
recognition that the sectarian scrolls belong in the Christian period
and are essential to the early history of Christianity. Time Magazine
last
year told the public that "many scholars think that the Teacher of
Righteousness was John the Baptist." (I was the only one to say so,
but the article
linked it with Eisenman, who actually said that the Teacher was James
the
brother of Jesus.)"
George
> On Jan 6, 2:55 pm, George <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 7, 5:49 am, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Kindly leave sci.archaeology and don't hit the door on
> > > your way out.
>
> > > Grow up, junior, or else people will disrespect you
> > > as a man.
>
> > Which same will never happen to you. Respect is earned... as is the
> > approbation with which you and your posts are recieved here.
> > Go away and Peter will have no need to show his contempt for you
>
> Maybe you should just keep quiet since you clearly
> know nothing about Qumran archaeology and Qumran Studies.
>
crunch
If you can't take the pressure, get out of the kitchen.
Peter Alaca
You declared war on the newsgroups. Take the consequences.
Tom McDonald
I can't help wondering whether the things he says to others might
have been things said to him his whole life, or maybe just while
he was growing up. Many of them are sort of odd and
idiosyncratic; not expressed the way most folks would express the
same ideas.
If so, it would go a long way to explaining his behavior. He is
clearly not in control of his responses to others.
--
Tom "Go Pack" McDonald
(<<Kelly>>)
> I can't help wondering whether the things he says to others might
> have been things said to him his whole life, or maybe just while
> he was growing up. Many of them are sort of odd and
> idiosyncratic; not expressed the way most folks would express the
> same ideas.
>
> If so, it would go a long way to explaining his behavior.
He's definitely projecting. I recognized this about him a long time
ago, actually.
> He is
> clearly not in control of his responses to others.
Oh, I think he's in control, he just doesn't know how to relate to
people on a level that doesn't put himself first and foremost and what
he's obsessed with first and foremost. Because of his untreated NPD,
he believes everyone should revolve around him and his obsessions.
Until he gets an actual diagnosis (if he hasn't) and the necessary
treatment, he's not going to change.
Cormac
Will you never, ever get the message?. You are under pressure to leave
archaeology and history groups and take your religious nonsense to
relevant groups.
Cormac.
crunch
Kelly loves to snipe but cannot take a punch.
So, were she or anybody else seriously interested in Qumran
Studies, there would be use of Advance Google Scholar
Search to retrieve the pdfs of "Dead Sea Discoveries",
the top professional journal.
Then again, there is -
ANE 2: A DISCUSSION LIST FOR THE STUDY OF THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/
Just plug "Qumran" into Search Facility for discussion.
crunch
That's right, Tom, I'm BAD. Please see -
Bad, Michael Jackson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROprP41yB_E
Tom McDonald
> On Jan 6, 7:16 pm, Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2...@charter.net> wrote:
>> George wrote:
>>> On Jan 7, 5:49 am, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Kindly leave sci.archaeology and don't hit the door on
>>>> your way out.
>>>> Grow up, junior, or else people will disrespect you
>>>> as a man.
>>> Which same will never happen to you. Respect is earned... as is the
>>> approbation with which you and your posts are recieved here.
>>> Go away and Peter will have no need to show his contempt for you
>> I can't help wondering whether the things he says to others might
>> have been things said to him his whole life, or maybe just while
>> he was growing up. Many of them are sort of odd and
>> idiosyncratic; not expressed the way most folks would express the
>> same ideas.
>>
>> If so, it would go a long way to explaining his behavior. He is
>> clearly not in control of his responses to others.
>>
>> --
>> Tom "Go Pack" McDonald
>
> That's right, Tom, I'm BAD.
Interesting that you jump to the idea that I'm calling you bad.
I'm not. I'm calling your behavior *understandable*, and some of
it out of your control.
Could be wrong; in which case, I could make a case for your
intentions being bad. But I don't think I'm wrong; and I don't
think you are bad.
<snip>
crunch
> crunch wrote:
> > On Jan 6, 7:16 pm, Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2...@charter.net> wrote:
> >> George wrote:
> >>> On Jan 7, 5:49 am, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> Kindly leave sci.archaeology and don't hit the door on
> >>>> your way out.
> >>>> Grow up, junior, or else people will disrespect you
> >>>> as a man.
> >>> Which same will never happen to you. Respect is earned... as is the
> >>> approbation with which you and your posts are recieved here.
> >>> Go away and Peter will have no need to show his contempt for you
> >> I can't help wondering whether the things he says to others might
> >> have been things said to him his whole life, or maybe just while
> >> he was growing up. Many of them are sort of odd and
> >> idiosyncratic; not expressed the way most folks would express the
> >> same ideas.
>
> >> If so, it would go a long way to explaining his behavior. He is
> >> clearly not in control of his responses to others.
>
> >> --
> >> Tom "Go Pack" McDonald
>
> > That's right, Tom, I'm BAD.
>
> Interesting that you jump to the idea that I'm calling you bad.
Wrong - I myself said I'm BAD.
> I'm not. I'm calling your behavior *understandable*, and some of
> it out of your control.
You are quite mistaken here.
> Could be wrong; in which case, I could make a case for your
> intentions being bad. But I don't think I'm wrong; and I don't
> think you are bad.
>
> <snip>
>
> --
> Tom "Go Pack" McDonald
I don't think you are bad either.