Miss transcribing

[knuttle]

I have an ancestor who is buried in the 1790 and 1800 census. The
family is first found on the frontier area of Broome Co NY in 1803,
so it is possible that the area they lived in 1800 may have been
missed by the census taker.

I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
creating the index.

The name is Knuttle. This is not a common name nor is the
combination of K & N common for the first letters of the last name.
With the flourish of some peoples hand writing, I have found the KN
miss transcribed as R and as TH.

Is anyone working with this letter combination and have you found it
transcribed in other ways.

Thank you for your assistance.

knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

[singhals]

> I have an ancestor who is buried in the 1790 and 1800 census. The
> family is first found on the frontier area of Broome Co NY in 1803,
> so it is possible that the area they lived in 1800 may have been
> missed by the census taker.
>
> I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
> in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
> creating the index.
>
> The name is Knuttle. This is not a common name nor is the

> combination of K& N common for the first letters of the last name.

> With the flourish of some peoples hand writing, I have found the KN
> miss transcribed as R and as TH.
>
> Is anyone working with this letter combination and have you found it
> transcribed in other ways.
>
> Thank you for your assistance.
>
> knuttle

You've probably tried this, but search for his first name; at
heritagequest use advanced search, his given name (or initial), the
year, and NY. If you're lucky, his name isn't John!

Look under carefully at the HEN section, the KUN section, the NU
section, and Lord He'pus the UN section.

If you're still coming up blank, you'll have to consider the
possibility that he's enumerated unnamed as a member of someone
else's household -- his father-in-law, his employer, his wife's 3rd
cousin, or even the local boarding house.

That'll mean you have to look at local personal or real estate tax
lists. :(

Cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

>knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net>


I can't speak for your name but I have found Sullivan spelled/
transcribed 152 different ways - so far.

Hugh

[knuttle]

> > I have an ancestor who is buried in the 1790 and 1800 census. The
> > family is first found on the frontier area of Broome Co NY in 1803,
> > so it is possible that the area they lived in 1800 may have been
> > missed by the census taker.
> >
> > I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
> > in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
> > creating the index.
> >
> > The name is Knuttle. This is not a common name nor is the
> > combination of K& N common for the first letters of the last name.
> > With the flourish of some peoples hand writing, I have found the KN
> > miss transcribed as R and as TH.
> >
> > Is anyone working with this letter combination and have you found it
> > transcribed in other ways.
> >

> > knuttle
>
> You've probably tried this, but search for his first name; at
> heritagequest use advanced search, his given name (or initial), the
> year, and NY. If you're lucky, his name isn't John!
>
> Look under carefully at the HEN section, the KUN section, the NU
> section, and Lord He'pus the UN section.
>
> If you're still coming up blank, you'll have to consider the
> possibility that he's enumerated unnamed as a member of someone
> else's household -- his father-in-law, his employer, his wife's 3rd
> cousin, or even the local boarding house.
>
> That'll mean you have to look at local personal or real estate tax
> lists. :(
>

> Cheryl Singhals<sing...@erols.com>


It had not occurred to me that the reason someone was missed was
that he was living with in laws or any of the other situations you
mentioned. I had consider that they may have been living with
parents.

His father was also supposed to be a William in which case William
Sr. should have been listed, as to have a son b: 1780 and married in
1802 he would have had to been at least 30 in the 1790 census.

It had also occurred to me that his father and mother had died and
William Jr was living with someone as an orphan.

If William Sr. was in an apprentices program he should have been on
his own by 1790 (see above} where as an apprentices he may have been
listed under the holder of his apprenticeship.

It had not occurred to me about the employer. I know many people in
that time period came as indentured servants, so it is quite
possible that he and his family would be listed in the house hold of
the owner of his indenture.

However there are indication that there was another brother in the
family as there is a Katy Knuttle in Stark Co Ohio in the 1850
census which could be a sister in law to William Jr. So I was
hoping that if I could not find William Sr, I could find this
suspect brother of William Jr in the census between 1800 and 1840.

Thank you for the opportunity to rethink the relationship

knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

[Wes Groleau]

> I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
> in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
> creating the index.
>

> knuttle


Do you know the names of any of his sons-in-law, daughters-in-law,
or other close relatives? In this days, it was _very_ common for
people to marry someone who lived very close by. So, if you can
find one of those people, search the rest of the page and two or
three on either side.


--
Wes Groleau

German Teachers
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/WWW?itemid=81

Wes Groleau <Grolea...@FreeShell.org>

[knuttle]

> > I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
> > in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
> > creating the index.
> >
> > knuttle
>
> Do you know the names of any of his sons-in-law, daughters-in-law,
> or other close relatives? In this days, it was _very_ common for
> people to marry someone who lived very close by. So, if you can
> find one of those people, search the rest of the page and two or
> three on either side.
>

> Wes Groleau


I believe that is part of the problem. The primary person of
interest William Knuttle was born in 1780 in Philadelphia. He would
have been 10 in 1790 and 20 in 1800, in both census probably too
young to own land. He was married in 1802. In 1802 they were living
on the frontier in Broome Co. He lived in Broome Co from 1802 until
sometime after 1820 and in 1830 is found in Livingston Co. NY Ohio.
By 1840 he is living in Wood Co Ohio.

I only know that his father was probably William but know nothing
else of his father's family except he may have came from in Kent
England. There may be a sister in law in Stark Co Oh in 1850 of
unknown maiden name.

His Wife Sarah was either a Gee or Jay, a very common name,
(Definitely not of the Chief Justice John Jay's family). She died
in 1826 and it is thought that he married a Jane Thornton or unknown
maiden name about 1827.

Three of his sons married in north central Ohio before 1840., one to
a recent immigrant from Scotland Sarah Delzell (Dalzell), one to a
Hannah Lynes and and the third to Elenor Knowles.

He had a daughter Eliza who married a Campbell in Genesee Co Ny
about 1825, and her second husband Abram Flowers in the the same
county in the early 1830's, and her third in Jacob Stayner in the
late 1830 in Steuben Co. Indiana.

In seems like every lead for the family is a dead end.

knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

[singhals]

>>> I have an ancestor who is buried in the 1790 and 1800 census. The
>>> family is first found on the frontier area of Broome Co NY in 1803,
>>> so it is possible that the area they lived in 1800 may have been
>>> missed by the census taker.
>>>
>>> I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
>>> in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
>>> creating the index.
>>>
>>> The name is Knuttle. This is not a common name nor is the
>>> combination of K& N common for the first letters of the last name.
>>> With the flourish of some peoples hand writing, I have found the KN
>>> miss transcribed as R and as TH.
>>>
>>> Is anyone working with this letter combination and have you found it
>>> transcribed in other ways.
>>>

>>> knuttle
>>
>> You've probably tried this, but search for his first name; at
>> heritagequest use advanced search, his given name (or initial), the
>> year, and NY. If you're lucky, his name isn't John!
>>
>> Look under carefully at the HEN section, the KUN section, the NU
>> section, and Lord He'pus the UN section.
>>
>> If you're still coming up blank, you'll have to consider the
>> possibility that he's enumerated unnamed as a member of someone
>> else's household -- his father-in-law, his employer, his wife's 3rd
>> cousin, or even the local boarding house.
>>
>> That'll mean you have to look at local personal or real estate tax
>> lists. :(
>>

>> Cheryl Singhals<sing...@erols.com>
>
> It had not occurred to me that the reason someone was missed was
> that he was living with in laws or any of the other situations you
> mentioned. I had consider that they may have been living with
> parents.
>
> His father was also supposed to be a William in which case William
> Sr. should have been listed, as to have a son b: 1780 and married in
> 1802 he would have had to been at least 30 in the 1790 census.
>
> It had also occurred to me that his father and mother had died and
> William Jr was living with someone as an orphan.
>
> If William Sr. was in an apprentices program he should have been on
> his own by 1790 (see above} where as an apprentices he may have been
> listed under the holder of his apprenticeship.
>
> It had not occurred to me about the employer. I know many people in
> that time period came as indentured servants, so it is quite
> possible that he and his family would be listed in the house hold of
> the owner of his indenture.
>
> However there are indication that there was another brother in the
> family as there is a Katy Knuttle in Stark Co Ohio in the 1850
> census which could be a sister in law to William Jr. So I was
> hoping that if I could not find William Sr, I could find this
> suspect brother of William Jr in the census between 1800 and 1840.
>
> Thank you for the opportunity to rethink the relationship
>
> knuttle

Also -- look at Run* -- I just found a Keziah indexed as Reziah.

And, if the blasted widowed mother remarried, they'll be under HIS
name, not their own. :(

We havin' fun yet?

Cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>

[Ian Goddard]

> I have an ancestor who is buried in the 1790 and 1800 census. The
> family is first found on the frontier area of Broome Co NY in 1803,
> so it is possible that the area they lived in 1800 may have been
> missed by the census taker.
>
> I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
> in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
> creating the index.
>
> The name is Knuttle. This is not a common name nor is the

> combination of K& N common for the first letters of the last name.

> With the flourish of some peoples hand writing, I have found the KN
> miss transcribed as R and as TH.
>
> Is anyone working with this letter combination and have you found it
> transcribed in other ways.
>

> knuttle


One of my family names is Knutton. They were living in Thornhill
parish, WRY, since before PRs started. One entry, C17th IIRC, in
the transcripts published by Yorks. Arch. Soc. spells it Cnutton. I
doubt this is a mistranscription but simply the vicar showing off,
presumably to himself, that he realised the name could have
originated from the scandinavian Cnut.

When a branch of the family moved to a new parish, Emley, they were
originally recorded as Newton and then as Nutton. When they moved
to Holmfirth chapelry they got their K back although Nutton & Notton
appear as occasional variants. Not all spelling variations are
transcription errors. Some of them are down to the writers of the
original records.


--
Ian

The Hotmail address is my spam-bin. Real mail address is iang
at austonley org uk

Ian Goddard <godd...@hotmail.co.uk>

[bob gillis]

Ian Goddard wrote:

> One of my family names is Knutton. They were living in Thornhill
> parish, WRY, since before PRs started. One entry, C17th IIRC, in the
> transcripts published by Yorks. Arch. Soc. spells it Cnutton. I
> doubt this is a mistranscription but simply the vicar showing off,
> presumably to himself, that he realised the name could have
> originated from the scandinavian Cnut.

Ian, what is WRY? Most people on this list are not British and are
not familiar with the Chapman Codes

> When a branch of the family moved to a new parish, Emley, they were

> originally recorded as Newton,

understandable


> and then as Nutton, also understandable. When they moved
> to Holmfirth chapelry they got their K back although Nutton& Notton
> appear as occasional variants.

have they ever been on the Last of the Summer Wine? <VBG>


> Not all spelling variationsare transcription errors. Some of them

> are down to the writers of the original records.

In the Essex County Massachusetts VRs <1850 I have counted as many
as 15 variations in a surname spelling. The recorder wrote what he
heard and thought the name should be spelled.

bob gillis

bob gillis <robert...@verizon.net>

[knuttle]

>> I have an ancestor who is buried in the 1790 and 1800 census. The
>> family is first found on the frontier area of Broome Co NY in 1803,
>> so it is possible that the area they lived in 1800 may have been
>> missed by the census taker.
>>
>> I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
>> in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
>> creating the index.
>>
>> The name is Knuttle. This is not a common name nor is the
>> combination of K& N common for the first letters of the last name.
>> With the flourish of some peoples hand writing, I have found the KN
>> miss transcribed as R and as TH.
>>
>> Is anyone working with this letter combination and have you found it
>> transcribed in other ways.
>>
>> knuttle
>
> One of my family names is Knutton. They were living in Thornhill
> parish, WRY, since before PRs started. One entry, C17th IIRC, in
> the transcripts published by Yorks. Arch. Soc. spells it Cnutton. I
> doubt this is a mistranscription but simply the vicar showing off,
> presumably to himself, that he realised the name could have
> originated from the scandinavian Cnut.
>
> When a branch of the family moved to a new parish, Emley, they were
> originally recorded as Newton and then as Nutton. When they moved

> to Holmfirth chapelry they got their K back although Nutton& Notton

> appear as occasional variants. Not all spelling variations are
> transcription errors. Some of them are down to the writers of the
> original records.
>

> Ian Goddard


Knut and its deriviates was one of the theories that I pursued early
on in my research. But I quickly decided that if I could not make a
connection of 20 to 40 years I was not going to make one of 900
years.

It is interesting to know that the c/k was added before the Nuttle
name in Hull and Leeds area of England. In my limited research I
learned there were Nuttles in the Humber River area as early as the
1200's

Was it just a spelling variant or did it mean something?

knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

[Ian Goddard]

bob gillis wrote:

> Ian Goddard wrote:
>
>> One of my family names is Knutton. They were living in Thornhill
>> parish, WRY, since before PRs started. One entry, C17th IIRC, in the
>> transcripts published by Yorks. Arch. Soc. spells it Cnutton. I
>> doubt this is a mistranscription but simply the vicar showing off,
>> presumably to himself, that he realised the name could have
>> originated from the scandinavian Cnut.
>
> Ian, what is WRY? Most people on this list are not British and are
> not familiar with the Chapman Codes

West Riding of Yorkshire.

%><

>> and then as Nutton, also understandable. When they moved
>> to Holmfirth chapelry they got their K back although Nutton& Notton
>> appear as occasional variants.
>
> have they ever been on the Last of the Summer Wine?<VBG>

Not as far as I know. I've only ever seen one person I recognised.

However one branch of June Whitfield's family lived in Holmfirth.
She's my 3rd cousin.

>> Not all spelling variationsare transcription errors. Some of them
> > are down to the writers of the original records.
>
> In the Essex County Massachusetts VRs<1850 I have counted as many
> as 15 variations in a surname spelling. The recorder wrote what he
> heard and thought the name should be spelled.

Which is, of course, the only thing he could do if the informant was
illiterate.

[Ian Goddard]

AFAIK kn was originally pronounced as written. So a knife, for
instance, would be pronounced k-nife and, of course, we often see
King Cnut's name spelled "Canute". I believe it died out in the
C17th. Can anyone confirm or correct that date?q

If the above is correct then if there is an *original* document of
the C13th spelled Nuttle this would have been the original
pronunciation & the "K" was added later

[bob gillis]

> snipped LOOONG quote

>
> AFAIK kn was originally pronounced as written. So a knife, for
> instance, would be pronounced k-nife and, of course, we often see
> King Cnut's name spelled "Canute". I believe it died out in the
> C17th. Can anyone confirm or correct that date?q
>
> If the above is correct then if there is an *original* document of
> the C13th spelled Nuttle this would have been the original

> pronunciation& the "K" was added later
>
> Ian Goddard


Several people have been quoting the entire LOOONG thread and
putting their replies at the end. If you want to include the thread
put your rather brief comment at the beginning of your reply.

bob gillis


[ Bob, they *can't* -- because I will move it to the end. We've
never allowed top-posting in s.g.methods/GENMTD-L.

The correct solution is for posters to edit the quoted material,
if possible, down to the specific bit to which they are
responding. - Mod ]

bob gillis <robert...@verizon.net>

[knuttle]

> Several people have been quoting the entire LOOONG thread and
> putting their replies at the end. If you want to include the thread
> put your rather brief comment at the beginning of your reply.
>

> bob gillis<robert...@verizon.net>

>
> [ Bob, they *can't* -- because I will move it to the end. We've
> never allowed top-posting in s.g.methods/GENMTD-L.
>
> The correct solution is for posters to edit the quoted material,
> if possible, down to the specific bit to which they are
> responding. - Mod ]

I for one like to have the replies at the beginning. When I have
been following a thread, it is nice to open the message and see the
most recent addition rather that having to scowl down through all of
the past messages

However many groups don't and it is hard to break the habit. I will
try harder in the future.



knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

[Ian Goddard]

> Several people have been quoting the entire LOOONG thread and
> putting their replies at the end. If you want to include the thread
> put your rather brief comment at the beginning of your reply.
>
> bob gillis
>
> [ Bob, they *can't* -- because I will move it to the end. We've
> never allowed top-posting in s.g.methods/GENMTD-L.
>
> The correct solution is for posters to edit the quoted material,
> if possible, down to the specific bit to which they are
> responding. - Mod ]

Thank you, Mod. There seem to be a few top-posters in s.g.medieval.
It makes for very confused posts. What's the moderator's view on
incorrectly threaded posts?


[ The moderator *tries* to make sure the Subject: lines and headers
are all properly configured so threading works on Methods posts.
I don't always succeed, because there are literally thousands of
different header formats that I have to skim and adjust individually
in a gatewayed newsgroup/mailing list like Methods.

And I'm aware that I just let us head off orthogonally to this
thread's original direction. ;-) - Mod ]

[Wes Groleau]

> I for one like to have the replies at the beginning. When I have
> been following a thread, it is nice to open the message and see the
> most recent addition rather that having to scowl down through all of
> the past messages
>

> knuttle


And when you haven't? Who likes to read a comment, then scroll down
through screen after screen trying to figure out what he's talking
about?

Answer: The same people who like to scroll down through screen after
screen and then when they see the comment, try to remember what it
was above that he's talking about.


--
Wes Groleau

Teacher Tip: Organization
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/russell?itemid=1568

Wes Groleau <Grolea...@FreeShell.org>

[singhals]

> most recent addition rather that having to scowl down through all of
>

> knuttle


(G) Thanks, Keith. I'm happy to know it strikes someone else that
way ...

DG&R [ <-- Good thing, because otherwise Mod would have swatted her ]

Cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>