Opinion Needed On Relationships Stated In A Deed
Huntersglenn
I've got a deed, dated 1835 in Washington County. In it, the
petitioners, Baily Ambrose and wife Eliza, Jacob N. Phelps, Jordan
H. Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps, "show your Worships that they are
tenants in common with Levi N. Phelps, Joseph W. Phelps, Priscilla
Phelps, Henry Phelps and Charles Phelps, minors of tender years as
heirs at law of Henry Phelps, Snr. deceased."
The petition is to divide the property of the deceased, Henry
Phelps, Sr., and a guardian is appointed for the minors names. My
question is if the wording of the petition establishes Eliza
Ambrose, Jacob Phelps, Jordan Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps as siblings
of the minors, or if they are siblings (or other relatives) of the
deceased? Or would more need to be known before that kind of a
determination can be made as to the relationship(s) of all of those
people to one another?
Thanks,
Cathy
Huntersglenn <hunter...@cox.net>
Bob Melson
That'd be the presumption, I suspect. But might Eliza, et al., be
paternal aunt and uncles? Note that Henry, Junior, is one of the
minors; while it's not always the case that the first born male is/
was necessarily the namesake/junior, it is true often enough to lead
to the supposition that Eliza and the others are not sibs of the
named minors but sibs of the father.
Sweet Ol' Bob
--
Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
-----
A government big enough to give you everything you want is big
enough to take away everything you have. Thomas Jefferson
Bob Melson <amia...@mypacks.net>
singhals
> I've got a deed, dated 1835 in Washington County. In it, the
> petitioners, Baily Ambrose and wife Eliza, Jacob N. Phelps, Jordan
> H. Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps, "show your Worships that they are
> tenants in common with Levi N. Phelps, Joseph W. Phelps, Priscilla
> Phelps, Henry Phelps and Charles Phelps, minors of tender years as
> heirs at law of Henry Phelps, Snr. deceased."
>
> The petition is to divide the property of the deceased, Henry
> Phelps, Sr., and a guardian is appointed for the minors names. My
> question is if the wording of the petition establishes Eliza
> Ambrose, Jacob Phelps, Jordan Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps as siblings
> of the minors, or if they are siblings (or other relatives) of the
> deceased? Or would more need to be known before that kind of a
> determination can be made as to the relationship(s) of all of those
> people to one another?
>
Hi, Cathy.
Which Washington Co? MD, VA, PA, or somewhere else?
First thought is that Eliza, Jacob, Jordan and Nehemiah are sibs of
the deceased, and that the 5 of them were TiC of property left by /
their/ late father, and that Henry (dec'd)'s share descends to his
children.
I can re-read it in different light and come out other places,
though.
Clues to how "minor" Levi et al were would be useful in deciding
which scenario to accept. I mean, if Levi was 19 or 20ys 10 mons,
then the proposition that he's Eliza's brother becomes reasonable,
but if Levi is 10 or under ...?
Did you find the settlement? Did everyone named get an equal share
or did Charles and Jordan get different shares?
Cheryl
singhals <sing...@erols.com>
Huntersglenn
> Hi, Cathy.
>
> Which Washington Co? MD, VA, PA, or somewhere else?
>
> First thought is that Eliza, Jacob, Jordan and Nehemiah are sibs of
> the deceased, and that the 5 of them were TiC of property left by /
> their/ late father, and that Henry (dec'd)'s share descends to his
> children.
>
> I can re-read it in different light and come out other places,
> though.
>
> Clues to how "minor" Levi et al were would be useful in deciding
> which scenario to accept. I mean, if Levi was 19 or 20ys 10 mons,
> then the proposition that he's Eliza's brother becomes reasonable,
> but if Levi is 10 or under ...?
>
> Did you find the settlement? Did everyone named get an equal share
> or did Charles and Jordan get different shares?
>
I didn't notice that I'd left out the state. It's Washington
County, NC -- which presents a unique problem in that 3 separate
courthouse fires destroyed nearly everything except the deeds.
Will, estate, marriage licenses, most tax records, etc., from the
beginning of the county in 1799 until around the 1850s or so (the
date varies according to the record in question. There are some
marriage licenses from then, but not wills or estates). I guess
we're lucky in that the deeds survived.
The 1850 Federal Census offers clues to the ages of some of the
people mentioned in the deed - Eliza Ambrose is 40, Jordan Phelps is
37, Nehemiah Phelps is 36, and there's a Jacob Phelps, aged 39,
although I'm not 100% sure that he's the same as the Jacob Phelps
mentioned in the deed. It's interesting to note that one of Eliza
Ambrose's children was named Nehemiah. Of the minors mentioned in
the deed, I cannot find Charles or Henry - although there are some
contenders for men who might be them. There are two men in their
20s with the first name of Henderson, one of which is listed right
above Jordan Phelps. He's 27. The other is 24, and in the household
of an older Charles Phelps, aged 66. Also in that household is a
Charles Phelps, aged 28. I have no idea is these two men are
children of that older Charles Phelps. As for the others, there's a
Levi Phelps, aged 33, and a Joseph Phelps, aged 31.
So, going backward, in the 1830 Federal Census, there is only one
Henry Phelps in the county as a Head of Household. His household
members break down as this:
2 males 5-10, 1 male 10-15, 2 males 15-20, 1 male 40-60, 1 female 5-10,
1 female 15-20, 2 females 20-30, 1 female 40-50
In the 1840 Federal Census, I can only find the following men as
Heads of Household (I only noted the ages of the males for this
year):
Jordan Phelps - oldest male 20-30
Nehemiah - only male 20-30
Levi - oldest males in 20-30
Levi's age seems to match up from 1830 through 1850
I know it might seem odd to list the Henderson Phelpses as
contenders for Henry, but one thing that seems popular (at least as
far as I've seen) in that county over the years was using the middle
name quite often on documents, even though it was not the 'official'
first name. Plus, Jordan named one of his sons Henderson. It's also
not uncommon to find a younger son being the 'Junior' in a family.
I have no idea what became of Priscilla Phelps.
My main reason for trying to determine the relationships is that a
descendant of one of the older men in the deed is a participant in
the Y-DNA Phelps Surname Project, and we're trying to fill out his
family tree as far back as possible in an effort to find the most
recent common ancestor between him and the others in the project
(although right now, it's looking as if that common ancestor is in
the early to mid 1700s).
Thanks,
Cathy
Huntersglenn <hunter...@cox.net>
Huntersglenn
> That'd be the presumption, I suspect. But might Eliza, et al., be
> paternal aunt and uncles? Note that Henry, Junior, is one of the
> minors; while it's not always the case that the first born male is/
> was necessarily the namesake/junior, it is true often enough to lead
> to the supposition that Eliza and the others are not sibs of the
> named minors but sibs of the father.
>
Thanks for replying. I've given a more detailed response to another
reply, so you can check that for more details. What I've seen most
in that county (it's in North Carolina) is that 'juniors' are not
often the first-born son.
The age ranges between the older people in the deed and some of the
minors is such that they could be siblings, or half-siblings. But,
it's also possible that they are aunt/uncles, or maybe even a
mixture of siblings and aunt/uncles.
Thanks
Cathy
Huntersglenn <hunter...@cox.net>
Wes Groleau
> I've got a deed, dated 1835 in Washington County. In it, the
> petitioners, Baily Ambrose and wife Eliza, Jacob N. Phelps, Jordan
> H. Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps, "show your Worships that they are
> tenants in common with Levi N. Phelps, Joseph W. Phelps, Priscilla
> Phelps, Henry Phelps and Charles Phelps, minors of tender years as
> heirs at law of Henry Phelps, Snr. deceased."
>
> Ambrose, Jacob Phelps, Jordan Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps as siblings
> of the minors, or if they are siblings (or other relatives) of the
>
The wording above does not establish that by itself.
A key phrase is "heirs at law" which I _suspect_ means that they
would be made heirs (but perhaps not the only heirs) by the law for
an intestate deceased in that jurisdiction at that time. In other
words, you need to find out what that law prescribed in that
jurisdiction at that time.
Same for the term "tenants in common" This question might be
answerable by a lawyer, paralegal, or law clerk in that area.
Probably even a librarian in a law library would know how to track
it down.
You might also try misc.legal or misc.legal.moderated
Washington County of what state or province?
--
Wes Groleau
A provocative quote
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/WWW?itemid=87
Wes Groleau <Grolea...@FreeShell.org>
bob gillis
> I've got a deed, dated 1835 in Washington County. In it, the
> petitioners, Baily Ambrose and wife Eliza, Jacob N. Phelps, Jordan H.
> Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps, "show your Worships that they are tenants
> in common with Levi N. Phelps, Joseph W. Phelps, Priscilla Phelps,
> Henry Phelps and Charles Phelps, minors of tender years as heirs at
> law of Henry Phelps, Snr. deceased."
>
> is if the wording of the petition establishes Eliza Ambrose, Jacob
> Phelps, Jordan Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps as siblings of the minors,
> would more need to be known before that kind of a determination can
> be made as to the relationship(s) of all of those people to one
> another?
>
> Huntersglenn
Have you looked at the 1830 and 1840 Census for Baily Ambrose, Jacob
N. Phelps, Jordan H. Phelps, Nehemiah Phelps and Henry Phelps to see
how many people are in their families?
Is this the only piece of evidence that you have on these people?
bob gillis
bob gillis <robert...@verizon.net>
Lisa Lepore
> I've got a deed, dated 1835 in Washington County. In it, the
> petitioners, Baily Ambrose and wife Eliza, Jacob N. Phelps, Jordan
> H. Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps, "show your Worships that they are
> tenants in common with Levi N. Phelps, Joseph W. Phelps, Priscilla
> Phelps, Henry Phelps and Charles Phelps, minors of tender years as
> heirs at law of Henry Phelps, Snr. deceased."
>
> The petition is to divide the property of the deceased, Henry
> Phelps, Sr., and a guardian is appointed for the minors names. My
> question is if the wording of the petition establishes Eliza
> Ambrose, Jacob Phelps, Jordan Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps as siblings
> of the minors, or if they are siblings (or other relatives) of the
> deceased? Or would more need to be known before that kind of a
> determination can be made as to the relationship(s) of all of those
> people to one another?
>
Cathy,
I don't think you can make that determination based only on the
information you have listed here.
The book, Searching American Probate Records
by Fran Carter
has this definition:
Heirs at Law: Commonly used to identify the eldest son
to whom all of an estate's real property was due under
the system of primogeniture. HOWEVER, I don't think
this is quite correct. Another definition here
http://www.dsf-dfs.com/en-CA/_Utilitaires/Glssr/GlssrGHI.htm#HeirsatLaw
says Individuals who have a right, in law only, to the estate of a
relative who dies without a will.
Primogeniture: Old common law system of inheritance whereby the
eldest son inherits the father's property excluding all other sons
or daughters.
This definition is from a commercial title insurance company
web page http://www.ctgtn.com/glossary
Tenants in Common - two or more persons own the property, with no
right of survivorship. If one dies, his interest passes to his
heirs, not necessarily the co-owner.
I'm thinking Henry Phelps Sr is the father of the minor children,
and he owned this land as a tenant in common with Eliza, Jacob
Jordan & Nehemiah. Now that he is dead, they want to re-divide the
property between the first 4 listed, and the minor children.
So no, I don't think the first 4 are siblings of the deceased. I
think they are more likely to be the siblings or other relatives of
the deceased, Henry Sr. who along with these other 4 inherited this
land from another deceased relative.
See if you can find the final division of the property. According to
this book, *those records will often show the names, addresses &
relationships of all heirs or those who benefited from the final
distribution*
Where is Washington County? Each state has slightly different
probate laws, so if you can tell us which state, we can find out
what their rules are concerning inheritance when someone dies
without a will.
Lisa
"Lisa Lepore" <lle...@comcast.net>
Lisa Lepore
Oh brother - I didn't write what I meant to say..... must have been
too early in the AM.
I wrote -
> So no, I don't think the first 4 are siblings of the deceased. I
> think they are more likely to be the siblings or other relatives of
> the deceased, Henry Sr. who along with these other 4 inherited this
> land from another deceased relative.
I should have written -
So no, I don't think the first 4 are siblings of the minors of
tender years. I think they are more likely to be the siblings or
other relatives of the deceased, Henry Sr, all of whom inherited
this land from another deceased relative. I think the minors of
tender years are the children of Henry Sr.
In the meantime, I also saw your other message that this event took
place in NC, so I went looking for some information.
If this law was in effect at the time of Henry's death, I'm thinking
now that the minors of tender years are not his children, but are
the children of one of his deceased siblings.
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_29/GS_29-15.html
If the intestate is not survived by such children or lineal
descendants or by a parent, the brothers and sisters of the
intestate, and the lineal descendants of any deceased brothers or
sisters, shall take as provided in G.S. 29-16;
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_29/GS_29-16.html
This section calculates how the property is to be divided.
So, even though my first message was not clear, what is clear is
that this document alone cannot tell us how they are all related.
Since your other message mentioned many court documents have been
destroyed by fires, perhaps some of the others died much later. If
you could find some deeds dealing with the distribution of the
property after the death of any of the others named below, maybe
something from a later time frame will shed more light on the
relationship of these people.
Lisa
"Lisa Lepore" <lle...@comcast.net>
Pam
> Where is Washington County? Each state has slightly different
> probate laws, so if you can tell us which state, we can find out
> what their rules are concerning inheritance when someone dies
> without a will.
According to NC law at that time all children, regardless of gender
and birth order, inherited equal portions of their deceased parent's
land and personal propertyy. If there were no children, the
deceased's siblings inherited equally. If he left a widow, she, upon
petition, would get 1/3 of the land with enough provisions to
support her and the minor children for a year.
Pam
"Pam" <misc...@fuse.net>
Huntersglenn
I want to thank everyone who replied, both here and privately. You
all were very helpful. I apologize for forgetting to put in the
state - it was Washington County, NC.
Thanks,
Cathy
Huntersglenn <hunter...@cox.net>
Wes Groleau
Also, it's possible that "Jr." and "Sr." were used to distinguish
two persons of the same name but NOT father and son.
--
Wes Groleau
Change is inevitable.
Liberals need to learn that "inevitable" is not a synonym for "good."
Conservatives should learn that "inevitable" is not a synonym for "bad."
-- WWG
Wes Groleau <Grolea...@FreeShell.org>
Wes Groleau
Lisa Lepore wrote:
> This definition is from a commercial title insurance company
> web page http://www.ctgtn.com/glossary
Definitions and other legal items found on web pages should not be
assumed to apply to a deed from 1835.
--
Wes Groleau
Are Americans unique in their condemnatory attitudes?
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett?itemid=1557
Wes Groleau <Grolea...@FreeShell.org>
Lisa Lepore
Apparently, I am having trouble writing a coherent message.
> I should have written -
>
> So no, I don't think the first 4 are siblings of the minors of
> tender years. I think they are more likely to be the siblings or
> other relatives of the deceased, Henry Sr, all of whom inherited
> this land from another deceased relative. I think the minors of
> tender years are the children of Henry Sr.
This should read - I DO NOT think the minors of tender years are
the children of Henry Sr.
Lisa
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Lepore" <lle...@comcast.net>
>
>> > I've got a deed, dated 1835 in Washington County. In it, the
>> > petitioners, Baily Ambrose and wife Eliza, Jacob N. Phelps, Jordan
>> > H. Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps, "show your Worships that they are
>> > tenants in common with Levi N. Phelps, Joseph W. Phelps, Priscilla
>> > Phelps, Henry Phelps and Charles Phelps, minors of tender years as
>> > heirs at law of Henry Phelps, Snr. deceased."
>> >
>> > The petition is to divide the property of the deceased, Henry
>> > Phelps, Sr., and a guardian is appointed for the minors names. My
>> > question is if the wording of the petition establishes Eliza
>> > Ambrose, Jacob Phelps, Jordan Phelps and Nehemiah Phelps as siblings
>> > of the minors, or if they are siblings (or other relatives) of the
>> > deceased? Or would more need to be known before that kind of a
>> > determination can be made as to the relationship(s) of all of those
>> > people to one another?
>> >
>> > Cathy Huntersglenn <hunter...@cox.net>
>>
>> Cathy,
>>
>> I don't think you can make that determination based only on the
>> information you have listed here.
>>
>> The book, Searching American Probate Records
>> by Fran Carter
>> has this definition:
>>
>> Heirs at Law: Commonly used to identify the eldest son
>> to whom all of an estate's real property was due under
>> the system of primogeniture. HOWEVER, I don't think
>> this is quite correct. Another definition here
>> http://www.dsf-dfs.com/en-CA/_Utilitaires/Glssr/GlssrGHI.htm#HeirsatLaw
>>
>> says Individuals who have a right, in law only, to the estate of a
>> relative who dies without a will.
>>
>> Primogeniture: Old common law system of inheritance whereby the
>> eldest son inherits the father's property excluding all other sons
>> or daughters.
>>
>> This definition is from a commercial title insurance company
>> web page http://www.ctgtn.com/glossary
>>
>> Tenants in Common - two or more persons own the property, with no
>> right of survivorship. If one dies, his interest passes to his
>> heirs, not necessarily the co-owner.
>>
>> I'm thinking Henry Phelps Sr is the father of the minor children,
>> and he owned this land as a tenant in common with Eliza, Jacob
>> Jordan & Nehemiah. Now that he is dead, they want to re-divide the
>> property between the first 4 listed, and the minor children.
>>
>> So no, I don't think the first 4 are siblings of the deceased. I
>> think they are more likely to be the siblings or other relatives of
>> the deceased, Henry Sr. who along with these other 4 inherited this
>> land from another deceased relative.
>>
>> See if you can find the final division of the property. According to
>> this book, *those records will often show the names, addresses &
>> relationships of all heirs or those who benefited from the final
>> distribution*
>>
>> Where is Washington County? Each state has slightly different
>> probate laws, so if you can tell us which state, we can find out
>> what their rules are concerning inheritance when someone dies
>> without a will.
>>
> "Lisa Lepore" <lle...@comcast.net>