Re: Miss transcribing (knuttle)

[ka7suz]

> I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
> in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
> creating the index.
>
> The name is Knuttle. This is not a common name nor is the
> combination of K & N common for the first letters of the last name.
> With the flourish of some peoples hand writing, I have found the KN
> miss transcribed as R and as TH.
>
> Is anyone working with this letter combination and have you found it
> transcribed in other ways.
>
> knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net>


Just put KNUTTLE in Ancestry's search engine....KENDALL, KINDALL,
etc etc etc. Broome County was created in 1806, from Tioga County,
which was carved out of Montgomery County in 1791, which was formed
out of Albany County in 1772, which was the original county. It
would seem there are several counties to check.

JoAnn

ka7suz <ka7...@concentric.net>

[knuttle]

> > I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
> > in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
> > creating the index.
> >
> > The name is Knuttle. This is not a common name nor is the

> > combination of K& N common for the first letters of the last name.

> > With the flourish of some peoples hand writing, I have found the KN
> > miss transcribed as R and as TH.
> >
> > Is anyone working with this letter combination and have you found it
> > transcribed in other ways.
> >
> > knuttle<keith_...@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Just put KNUTTLE in Ancestry's search engine....KENDALL, KINDALL,
> etc etc etc. Broome County was created in 1806, from Tioga County,
> which was carved out of Montgomery County in 1791, which was formed
> out of Albany County in 1772, which was the original county. It
> would seem there are several counties to check.
>

> JoAnn <ka7...@concentric.net>


I wish it were that simple. I have put Knuttle and derivatives into
every search engine on every genealogical website I have found,
Nothing.

There is a Knuttle family that came to Michigan in the mid 1800's
that are not related to this family, or if related the connection is
in Europe before 1780.

There is no evidence that the family every was spelled Kendall of a
derivative. I know that by family agreement the dropped the K from
their name in 1850 when they were living in Allen Co Indiana.

knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

[bob gillis]

> The name is Knuttle. This is not a common name nor is the
> combination of K& N common for the first letters of the last
> name. With the flourish of some peoples hand writing, I have found
> the KN miss transcribed as R and as TH.
>

> knuttle


The Kn combination is a fairly common in German, other Germanic
languages and even English. there are 38 Kn* surname lists on
RootsWeb.

I cannot easily count the Kn* surname Message Boards but there are
probably more than 38.

There is a Mike Knuble playing in the NH; he is of Latvian descent..

bob gillis

bob gillis <robert...@verizon.net>

[singhals]

>>> I am asking the members of this group's help on the assumption that
>>> in the 1790 and 1800 census, the name was miss transcribed when
>>> creating the index.
>>>
>>> The name is Knuttle. This is not a common name nor is the

>>> combination of K& N common for the first letters of the last name.

>>> With the flourish of some peoples hand writing, I have found the KN
>>> miss transcribed as R and as TH.
>>>
>>> Is anyone working with this letter combination and have you found it
>>> transcribed in other ways.
>>>
>>> knuttle<keith_...@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> Just put KNUTTLE in Ancestry's search engine....KENDALL, KINDALL,
>> etc etc etc. Broome County was created in 1806, from Tioga County,
>> which was carved out of Montgomery County in 1791, which was formed
>> out of Albany County in 1772, which was the original county. It
>> would seem there are several counties to check.
>>

>> JoAnn<ka7...@concentric.net>

>
> I wish it were that simple. I have put Knuttle and derivatives into
> every search engine on every genealogical website I have found,
> Nothing.
>
> There is a Knuttle family that came to Michigan in the mid 1800's
> that are not related to this family, or if related the connection is
> in Europe before 1780.
>
> There is no evidence that the family every was spelled Kendall of a
> derivative. I know that by family agreement the dropped the K from
> their name in 1850 when they were living in Allen Co Indiana.
>
> knuttle<keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

He's on the 1810 in Broome co.

1810 > NEW YORK > BROOME > CHENANGO
Series: M252 Roll: 26 Page: 111
Surname GivenName Age Sex Race Birthplace
KNUTTLE WM

bottom half of page ...
Marshall LEWIS
Nathl TAGGART
Levi ANDRUS jun
Thomas DORMAN
Elijah DOUGHTY
Benjn ROSENCRANTZ
Jacob CONKLIN
Wm KNUTTLE
Danl BISHOP
Robt DORMAN
...

So ... 1800
struck out on everyone except:
but Andrus gave me a Thomas in Tioga co, Owego dist.
5 Jacob CONKLINs, none in Tioga
4 Daniel BISHOP, none in Tioga

Next thought -- I ran knuttle all states all census; 1810 is
the earliest hit on the surname. So I dropped the k, and
found one in 1790 Maryland, Talbot county, which is on the
Bay... there are 5 NUTTLEs in Md in 1800, 4 of them on the
Bay; 2 in MD 1810; and 4 in 1820
and in 1860, Thomas Knuttle in Philadelphia aged 21.

Philadelphia is just up-river from part of that bay and sea-traffic
was thick and heavy.

The TAGGART and LEWIS lines are early Virginia, and I've seen
references to a Capt. Andrus in NY in more-than-two MD sources.

FWIW ...

Cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>

[Lisa Lepore]

> I wish it were that simple. I have put Knuttle and derivatives into
> every search engine on every genealogical website I have found,
> Nothing.
>
> There is a Knuttle family that came to Michigan in the mid 1800's
> that are not related to this family, or if related the connection is
> in Europe before 1780.
>
> There is no evidence that the family every was spelled Kendall of a
> derivative. I know that by family agreement the dropped the K from
> their name in 1850 when they were living in Allen Co Indiana.
>
> knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

Maybe I've missed something, but are you looking for NUTTLE?

If your family agreed to drop the K, then it seems the name would
have been pronounced Nuttle. Even if your ancestors could spell it,
doesn't mean the census taker knew there was supposed to be K there.

There are Nuttle in Maryland in 1800
There's a William Nuttle & a Lyda Nuttle in Caroline Maryland in 1810

Then there are all the variations of Nuttle that could be
mistranscribed - The N could be picked up as an H, or the U could be
picked up as an O or something else.... I saw a number of NETTLE
also.

Lisa

"Lisa Lepore" <lle...@comcast.net>

[knuttle]

> Cheryl Singhals<sing...@erols.com>


The family of William Knuttle is found in every census between 1810
and 1850. The 1810 census is where I found the THuttle
transcription in the census.

I had found the Maryland Nuttles. The family is quite large and by
about 1830 some of the family finds its way into north eastern Ohio.
(Many of William Knuttle's children settled in the Maumee river
basin in Ohio and Indiana.)

There are some William Nuttles in the Maryland Nuttles. There
several on online trees, have information on the wives of these
Williams and the dates and places where they died. These William
had distinctly different lives than the life of my William Knuttle.
There may be a connection between the Maryland Nuttles and the New
York Knuttles but if there is a connection it probably occurred
before they left Europe.

In my opinion the Maryland Nuttles are probably descended from the
Nuttles of the Humber River area of England and can be traced back
into the 1200's

William Knuttle appears in Broome County New York. There are nearly
no hits on Knuttle in these early records. Based on some personal
records of the family collected and written by the grand children of
William Knuttle, his wife Sarah Jay was born in New York. Family
lore says Williams parents were from Kent England.

There are two clues in the online documents as to the origin of this
family. One is from the late 1600, when a William Knuttle worked
for the Dutch King to arrange his marriage. The other is a Dutch
sea Captain Bernhardus Knuttel who had his ships sold by the British
Admiralty Court the during the Anglo Dutch War of 1783. There were
Captain Nuttles who brought their ships into the port of New York
and in to Philadelphia. These could be of the Maryland Nuttles as
there was a Captain Samuel Nuttle of the Maryland Nuttles, but being
the newspaper a Kunttel could have been reported as a Nuttle bring
his ship into the port of New York.

There are a couple of ways that the Knuttle family (Assume they are
Dutch or German) could be in Kent England. If they are some way
associated with Bernhardus Knuttel, they could have been working
with, or semi prisoners the English Navy which had a large presence
in the Kent area in the early 1700. Kent was also use to house the
refuges from the continent from the time of Queen Ann, around 1700,
and into the first half of the 1700's

While the mystery wait solution, the bottom line is that the Knuttle
family maintained the K from about 1780 until 1850 when the children
of William Knuttle decided to drop the K. The question keeps
nagging me is if the family was originally Nuttle why in the mid
1700's did they add the K and maintain the K for at least 70 years.
I have never found reason, ie nobility, son of, etc for a family to
add a K to their name.

Again thank you for taking an interest in my problem and letting
some one else critique it. Please by all means tell me if you see a
hole.

knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

[singhals]

The /major/ hole I see is, you're assuming everyone involved in
recording all those records you've found (a) had the same accent and
(b) was literate. It's /sounding/ as if you're using the spelling
as your rulein/ruleout guide. You're probably NOT, but it sure
sounds like it.

As someone else mentioned just now, What got recorded was what the
clerk thought he heard, and it was generally spelt the way the CLERK
wanted to spell it (because after all, if he needs to find it again,
he's going to remember how he'd spell it, not how you wanted it
spelt).

Also, if the speaker isn't literate, he's never going to know that
the wretched clerk smacked a K on where it didn't belong (because
he'll not know it didn't belong).

More, as you know better than I do, the dialects and accents of the
average man in the different counties in England are more-or-less
unintelligible to someone from another county. Bad enough in the
states where certain states have accents thick enough to float -- I
have a cousin who puts pint on her walls, and she buys it at Sherwin
Williams. The Dutch settler influence was still strong in NY during
the Revolution; a Dutch-speaking clerk might well _hear_ a silent K
where there ought not be one.

OTOH, I've got one of those "just beamed in from planet Xeno"
ancestors myself. I'll never find a 4-yr-old named Mary in Virginia
in 1860 -- there are hundreds. I get pretty desperate for a glimmer
of hope some days. (g)

Cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>

[Ian Goddard]

Looking at both variations on FreeBMD there are no Knuttles at all.
The Nuttles are largely northern although not exclusively Hull. In
particular there seems to have been a branch in the Plympton
registration area which covers a good stretch of the S. Devon coast.
There don't, however, seem to be any in Kent.

It seems more likely therefore, that the Knuttles have a relatively
direct Dutch origin although possibly staged through Kent as you
suggest but if any branch settled there it must have died out by the
early C19th.

The English Nuttles could well have had a Dutch origin if you
initially find them around the Humber which, of course, was well
sited for Dutch trade. This assumes, however, that the initial "K"
was silent in Dutch. I'm cross-posting this to s.g.b in the hope
that some of the Dutch-speaking members there will be able to
comment on that. It's not surprising that a name associated with
Hull would turn up in another coastal area such as S. Devon. You
say they can be traced back to the C13th; what spelling variations
do you have back then?

Certainly the English Nuttles seem a likely source of the US family.
However, one couldn't rule out a spelling change by dropping the
"K", Knuttle -> Nuttle.

Adding a silent "K" seems on the face of it less likely but not
impossible. However, as I found with the Knuttons it is possible
for a "K" to be dropped when it was unfamiliar to the clerks & then
reinstated. So, unless there's evidence* for fluctuating spelling
of that sort amongst the Nuttle family indicating that they really
thought of themselves as Knuttle, I'd think it unlikely that there
would be a Nuttle -> Knuttle change.

*You'd need to consult the originals or at least good transcripts
rather than rely on on-line trees where "spelling errors" might have
been "corrected".


--
Ian

The Hotmail address is my spam-bin. Real mail address is iang
at austonley org uk

Ian Goddard <godd...@hotmail.co.uk>