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Descent from Elizabeth (Isabel) Vermandois
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Pauline Schwarz
Oct 29, 2011, 5:40:21 PM10/29/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
My descent is as follows:
Elizabeth de Vermandois - Robert de Beaumont
Robert II de Beaumont - Amicie de Gae
Marguerite de Beaumont - Raoul V de Conches
Ida de Tosny - Roger Bigod II
Hugh Bigod III - Maud Marshall
Isabel Bigod - John Fitzgeoffrey
Maud Fitzjohn - William de Beauchamp
Isabel de Beauchamp - Hugh le Despenser
Phillip le Despenser - Margaret de Goushill
Phillip le Despenser - Joan Strange
Sir Phillip le Despenser - Margaret Cobham
Sir Phillip le Despenser - Elizabeth Tybotot
Margaret le Despenser - Sir Roger Wentworth
Margaret Wentworth - Sir William Hopton
Margaret Hopton - Sir Phillip Booth
Audrey Booth - Sir William Lytton
Sir Robert Lytton - Frances Cavelery
Anne Lytton - Sir John Borlase
Anne Borlase - Sir Euseby Isham
William Isham - Mary Brett
Capt. Henry Isham - Katherine Banks Royall
Anne Isham - Francis Eppes
Francis Eppes - Sarah Kennon
Ann Eppes - Benjamin Harris
Joseph Harris - Rebekah Howard
Robert Harris - Annie Lancaster
John Proctor Harris - Elizabeth Richardson
Silas Randolph Harris, Sr. - Susan M. Paul
Silas Randolph Harris, Jr. - Mary Elizabeth Thompson
Elmer Franklin Harris - Clara May McGinnis
Pauline Marie Harris - Thomas Lee Schwarz
Mine is the same as many others until we get to Roger Wentworth. Capt.
Henry Isham is my gateway ancestor arriving in Virginia about 1656.
Pauline Harris Schwarz
John
Oct 30, 2011, 12:31:37 PM10/30/11
to
in the 2004 edition of Plantagenet Ancestry because his daughter Mary
m. Col. William Randolph, who is himself a Plantagenet descendant.
But no such descent is shown for Henry and his daughter Mary, although
one appears to exist - going back from Sir William Hopton in the list
above. Does anyone know if the more recent edition of Plantagenet
Ancestry includes a descent for Henry Isham - or if such a descent
has otherwise been published?
TJ Booth_aol
Nov 7, 2011, 6:11:18 PM11/7/11
to GenMedieval
Several sources show an Edw I ancestry for immigrant Henry Isham via William
Lytton Esq. of Knebworth Herts, d. 26 Aug 1517. This error is due to
identifying Lytton's parents as Sir Robert Lytton and a dau of John Andrews
d. 1473. For instance, geneaologics @
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00232164&tree=LEO, citing
Paget, shows the mother as 'Agnes Andrews', a supposed 3rd dau of John
Andrews and Elizabeth Stratton of Baylham Suffolk.
An initial search found no evidence for a 3rd Andrews daughter named Agnes.
It did find that Burkes identified William's mother as 'Elizabeth dau &
co-heir of John Andrews of Weston in Norfolk, relict of Thomas Windsor' (see
http://books.google.com/books?id=uo9AAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA447 ). Burkes and Paget
at least agree William's mother was a dau of John Andrews, but don't agree
on her name. Paget instead shows Eliz w only 1 husband (Thomas Windsor).
Old RPA [sub Ludlow], page 475, identifies just 2 daughters for John Andrews
and Elizabeth Stratton, none named Agnes. It does note p. 476 Elizabeth
Andrew's 2nd husband was Sir Robert Lytton, who she m. aft 1st husband
Thomas Windsor d. 29 Sep 1485, and states that she bore Sir Robert 2 sons -
William and Thomas. This statement matches Burkes as to William's mother,
and if Paget's 'Agnes' is conflated with his 'Elizabeth Andrews', all
sources would seem to agree that Sir Robert's eldest son William was by
mother Eliz Andrews, and thus has an Edw I ancestry.
However, other sources reveal a major inconsistency. Old MCA [sub Lytton] p.
545 shows the parents of William Lytton Esq. of Knebworth (m. Audrey Booth)
as Sir Robert "by his 1st wife, Agnes. dau and heiress of Thomas Rede,
citizen of London." Old RPA and Old MCA thus show different mothers for
William - is it the same in the new editions?
William Lytton's father, Sir Robert, did marry two wives, so which one was
William's mother?
The identity of his mother is proved by the wills of the father and mother
of Agnes Rede. They and other evidence are in a footnote in Compton Reade;
'A Record of the Redes of Barton Court Berks'; Hereford; Jakeman & Carver;
1899; page 22 @ http://books.google.com/books?id=cqtCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA22 . The
footnote pedigree for Lytton cites and quotes from the wills of Agnes'
father Thomas (9 Jun 1492) and mother Lettice (1 Aug 1496) as well as other
evidence. While I've not seen the wills, there seems little reason to doubt
the summaries.
The 4 Jun 1492 will of Thomas Rede named 3 Lytton grandsons - son and heir
William, Thomas and George. The 1 Aug 1496 will of his wife Lettice Rede
named the same 3 sons along with 2 granddaus - Margaret and Elizabeth. The
footnote also adds that the arms on the tomb of Sir William Lytton d. 14 Jan
1704/05 showed the Rede arms in the seventh quartering, stating Sir William
was 'seventh in descent from Sir Robert'.
Since William Lytton was an adult in 1501/02, when he purchased Mendlesden,
Essex, a property which descended in his family. Thus he was b. sometime bef
1482, well before Elizabeth Andrews' first husband d. :
"In 1501-2 he [John Langford] and his wife Katherine sold the property to
William Lytton, who died in 1517, leaving as heir his son Robert, aged five
years. Robert at his death left three daughters, of whom Ellen wife of John
Brockett bought up the shares of the other two. From this date the manor
descended with the manor of Almshoe in Ippollitts (q.v.)." [William Page;
'Hitchin: Introduction and manors', A History of the County of Hertford:
volume 3 (1912), pp. 3-12. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43569 ]
The Rede ancestry is further confirmed in the following bio of William
Lytton (same footnote), the chronology of which (sheriff in 1510, m. Audrey
Booth in 1498) also making it difficult for him to have been b. aft 1485.
"William de Lytton, Esq,, of Knebworth, Herts, Governor of the Castle of
Boulogne, France, Sheriff of Essex and Herts, 1510, is mentioned as "son and
heir apparent of Robert Lytton " in the will of his maternal grandfather,
Thomas Rede, dated 9th June, 1492. He is also mentioned in the will of his
maternal grandmother, Letice Rede, dated 1st August, 1496. He married 13
Henry VII. (1498), Audrey, daughter and heiress of Sir Philip Booth, Knight,
of Shrubland Hall, Suffolk, by Margaret his wife, daughter of Sir Wittin
Hopton, of Swillington, York. (Arms of Booth.-Arg., three boars' heads erect
and erased gu.) She died llth April, 10 Henry VIII. (1518), having survived
her husband, who died 26th August, 1517. William de Lytton had issue . . "
However, commentary elsewhere in the above footnote is wrong that Lytton m.
Elizabeth Andrews 1st, and Agnes Rede 2nd. Agnes Rede d. sometime bef the 1
Oct 1503 will of Richard Lytton, a clerk for 'Sir Robert Lytton knt. in the
offices of the Treasurers' Remembrancer in the Exchequer'. His will
requested burial 'beneath and nigh to the tomb of Agnes, Sir Robert Lytton's
late wife'(see http://books.google.com/books?id=TPlTxMlveecC&pg=PA76).
That Elizabeth Andrews was Sir Robert Lytton's second wife is certain based
on a correction to the 'accepted' bio of Sir Robert, again in a footnote,
this time identifying him as the arbitrator in a court case. It is there
stated:
"His second wife is said by Cussans to have been Agnes, only daughter and
heir of Thomas Rede, citizen of London, by whom he left two sons, William
and Thomas, the elder of whom succeeded to Knebworth. . . But a general
pardon for any offences or omissions committed by Sir Robert Litton in the
numerous offices held by him was granted on April 29, 21 Hen. 7 (1506) to
his widow Elizabeth and his son and heir William, being his executors, which
shows the accepted biography of him to be incorrect (see MS. R. 0., Exch. K.
R. Mem. Roll, 21 Hen. 7, inter brevia, iii. dors.). " ['Select Cases before
the King's Council in the Star Chamber 1477-1509'; Selden Society; Vol 16
(1902); page 62/63 @ http://books.google.com/books?id=zsQKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA62]
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Lytton Esq. of Knebworth Herts, d. 26 Aug 1517. This error is due to
identifying Lytton's parents as Sir Robert Lytton and a dau of John Andrews
d. 1473. For instance, geneaologics @
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00232164&tree=LEO, citing
Paget, shows the mother as 'Agnes Andrews', a supposed 3rd dau of John
Andrews and Elizabeth Stratton of Baylham Suffolk.
An initial search found no evidence for a 3rd Andrews daughter named Agnes.
It did find that Burkes identified William's mother as 'Elizabeth dau &
co-heir of John Andrews of Weston in Norfolk, relict of Thomas Windsor' (see
http://books.google.com/books?id=uo9AAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA447 ). Burkes and Paget
at least agree William's mother was a dau of John Andrews, but don't agree
on her name. Paget instead shows Eliz w only 1 husband (Thomas Windsor).
Old RPA [sub Ludlow], page 475, identifies just 2 daughters for John Andrews
and Elizabeth Stratton, none named Agnes. It does note p. 476 Elizabeth
Andrew's 2nd husband was Sir Robert Lytton, who she m. aft 1st husband
Thomas Windsor d. 29 Sep 1485, and states that she bore Sir Robert 2 sons -
William and Thomas. This statement matches Burkes as to William's mother,
and if Paget's 'Agnes' is conflated with his 'Elizabeth Andrews', all
sources would seem to agree that Sir Robert's eldest son William was by
mother Eliz Andrews, and thus has an Edw I ancestry.
However, other sources reveal a major inconsistency. Old MCA [sub Lytton] p.
545 shows the parents of William Lytton Esq. of Knebworth (m. Audrey Booth)
as Sir Robert "by his 1st wife, Agnes. dau and heiress of Thomas Rede,
citizen of London." Old RPA and Old MCA thus show different mothers for
William - is it the same in the new editions?
William Lytton's father, Sir Robert, did marry two wives, so which one was
William's mother?
The identity of his mother is proved by the wills of the father and mother
of Agnes Rede. They and other evidence are in a footnote in Compton Reade;
'A Record of the Redes of Barton Court Berks'; Hereford; Jakeman & Carver;
1899; page 22 @ http://books.google.com/books?id=cqtCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA22 . The
footnote pedigree for Lytton cites and quotes from the wills of Agnes'
father Thomas (9 Jun 1492) and mother Lettice (1 Aug 1496) as well as other
evidence. While I've not seen the wills, there seems little reason to doubt
the summaries.
The 4 Jun 1492 will of Thomas Rede named 3 Lytton grandsons - son and heir
William, Thomas and George. The 1 Aug 1496 will of his wife Lettice Rede
named the same 3 sons along with 2 granddaus - Margaret and Elizabeth. The
footnote also adds that the arms on the tomb of Sir William Lytton d. 14 Jan
1704/05 showed the Rede arms in the seventh quartering, stating Sir William
was 'seventh in descent from Sir Robert'.
Since William Lytton was an adult in 1501/02, when he purchased Mendlesden,
Essex, a property which descended in his family. Thus he was b. sometime bef
1482, well before Elizabeth Andrews' first husband d. :
"In 1501-2 he [John Langford] and his wife Katherine sold the property to
William Lytton, who died in 1517, leaving as heir his son Robert, aged five
years. Robert at his death left three daughters, of whom Ellen wife of John
Brockett bought up the shares of the other two. From this date the manor
descended with the manor of Almshoe in Ippollitts (q.v.)." [William Page;
'Hitchin: Introduction and manors', A History of the County of Hertford:
volume 3 (1912), pp. 3-12. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43569 ]
The Rede ancestry is further confirmed in the following bio of William
Lytton (same footnote), the chronology of which (sheriff in 1510, m. Audrey
Booth in 1498) also making it difficult for him to have been b. aft 1485.
"William de Lytton, Esq,, of Knebworth, Herts, Governor of the Castle of
Boulogne, France, Sheriff of Essex and Herts, 1510, is mentioned as "son and
heir apparent of Robert Lytton " in the will of his maternal grandfather,
Thomas Rede, dated 9th June, 1492. He is also mentioned in the will of his
maternal grandmother, Letice Rede, dated 1st August, 1496. He married 13
Henry VII. (1498), Audrey, daughter and heiress of Sir Philip Booth, Knight,
of Shrubland Hall, Suffolk, by Margaret his wife, daughter of Sir Wittin
Hopton, of Swillington, York. (Arms of Booth.-Arg., three boars' heads erect
and erased gu.) She died llth April, 10 Henry VIII. (1518), having survived
her husband, who died 26th August, 1517. William de Lytton had issue . . "
However, commentary elsewhere in the above footnote is wrong that Lytton m.
Elizabeth Andrews 1st, and Agnes Rede 2nd. Agnes Rede d. sometime bef the 1
Oct 1503 will of Richard Lytton, a clerk for 'Sir Robert Lytton knt. in the
offices of the Treasurers' Remembrancer in the Exchequer'. His will
requested burial 'beneath and nigh to the tomb of Agnes, Sir Robert Lytton's
late wife'(see http://books.google.com/books?id=TPlTxMlveecC&pg=PA76).
That Elizabeth Andrews was Sir Robert Lytton's second wife is certain based
on a correction to the 'accepted' bio of Sir Robert, again in a footnote,
this time identifying him as the arbitrator in a court case. It is there
stated:
"His second wife is said by Cussans to have been Agnes, only daughter and
heir of Thomas Rede, citizen of London, by whom he left two sons, William
and Thomas, the elder of whom succeeded to Knebworth. . . But a general
pardon for any offences or omissions committed by Sir Robert Litton in the
numerous offices held by him was granted on April 29, 21 Hen. 7 (1506) to
his widow Elizabeth and his son and heir William, being his executors, which
shows the accepted biography of him to be incorrect (see MS. R. 0., Exch. K.
R. Mem. Roll, 21 Hen. 7, inter brevia, iii. dors.). " ['Select Cases before
the King's Council in the Star Chamber 1477-1509'; Selden Society; Vol 16
(1902); page 62/63 @ http://books.google.com/books?id=zsQKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA62]
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Message has been deleted
Douglas Richardson
Nov 10, 2011, 12:03:40 PM11/10/11
to
Dear Pauline ~
I'm enjoying seeing the various lines of descents from Isabel (or
Elizabeth) de Vermandois. This one for the immigrant, Henry Isham,
is a good one. The line down the the immigrant is solid. I do have a
couple of minor comments, however.
For clarification, I have numbered your generations below. Published
accounts of the maiden names of the wives of Generations 10 and 11 are
not as helpful as I would like.
As per Complete Peerage, I believe Joan, wife of Sir Philip le
Despenser (Gen. 10 below) was daughter of John de Cobham, Knt., Lord
Cobham, by Joan, daughter of John de Beauchamp, of Hatch Beauchamp,
Somerset. Support for a Despenser-Cobham marriage comes from Gage,
History & Antiqs. of Suffolk: Thingoe Hundred (1838): 4–8 who states
“among the arms at Nettlested remaining in Harvey’s time, were those
of Le Despenser quartering Gousell, impaling Cobham”.
Elizabeth, wife of Sir Philip le Despenser (Gen. 11 below) was
probably a Strange, but I haven't found sufficient evidence to prove
it. Morant's History of Essex, 2: 360-1, gives a garbled account of
this family. He identifies this Philip le Despenser's wife as either
____ Strange or Margaret Cobham. Muskett (1897) says Philip's wife
is Joan Strange, but Complete Peerage 6 (1926):289, note b, discusses
and sets that aside, giving his wife as Elizabeth (---).
One good clue to the identity of Sir Philip le Despenser's wife is his
appearance in an 1383 indenture involving the marriage settlement of
William Willoughby, 5th Lord Willoughby of Eresby, and Lucy le
Strange, daughter of Roger le Strange, 5th Lord Strange of Knockin.
This item is found in the A2A Catalogue. On the date, 23 April
1382/3, Robert de Willoughby (father of the groom) bound himself to
Lady Aline le Strange (mother of the bride) and Philip le Despenser to
enfeoff the said William and Lucy and their heirs with the manors of
Wheatacre, Edgefield, and Walcott in co. Norfolk, or with land of
equivalent value. The indenture further provided that if the said
Lucy, "wife of William, Robert's eldest son, and daughter of Aline,"
should die within 5 years after the Wednesday after Epiphany last past
without issue, Robert and his heirs are to pay to Aline or Philip 400
marks within the two years after Lucy's death.
The fact that Sir Philip le Despenser and Aline le Strange (mother of
the bride) were acting together on behalf of the bride suggests that
Philip le Despenser (or his wife) were closely related to this Strange
family. This matter deserves needs further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
< 2. Robert II de Beaumont - Amicie de Gae
< 3. Marguerite de Beaumont - Raoul V de Conches
< 4. Ida de Tosny - Roger Bigod II
< 5. Hugh Bigod III - Maud Marshall
< 6. Isabel Bigod - John Fitzgeoffrey
< 7. Maud Fitzjohn - William de Beauchamp
< 8. Isabel de Beauchamp - Hugh le Despenser
< 9. Phillip le Despenser - Margaret de Goushill
< 10. Phillip le Despenser - Joan Strange
< 11. Sir Phillip le Despenser - Margaret Cobham
< 12. Sir Phillip le Despenser - Elizabeth Tybotot
< 13. Margaret le Despenser - Sir Roger Wentworth
< 14. Margaret Wentworth - Sir William Hopton
< 15. Margaret Hopton - Sir Phillip Booth
< 16. Audrey Booth - Sir William Lytton
< 17. Sir Robert Lytton - Frances Cavelery
< 18. Anne Lytton - Sir John Borlase
< 19. Anne Borlase - Sir Euseby Isham
< 20. William Isham - Mary Brett
< 21. Capt. Henry Isham - Katherine Banks Royall
I'm enjoying seeing the various lines of descents from Isabel (or
Elizabeth) de Vermandois. This one for the immigrant, Henry Isham,
is a good one. The line down the the immigrant is solid. I do have a
couple of minor comments, however.
For clarification, I have numbered your generations below. Published
accounts of the maiden names of the wives of Generations 10 and 11 are
not as helpful as I would like.
As per Complete Peerage, I believe Joan, wife of Sir Philip le
Despenser (Gen. 10 below) was daughter of John de Cobham, Knt., Lord
Cobham, by Joan, daughter of John de Beauchamp, of Hatch Beauchamp,
Somerset. Support for a Despenser-Cobham marriage comes from Gage,
History & Antiqs. of Suffolk: Thingoe Hundred (1838): 4–8 who states
“among the arms at Nettlested remaining in Harvey’s time, were those
of Le Despenser quartering Gousell, impaling Cobham”.
Elizabeth, wife of Sir Philip le Despenser (Gen. 11 below) was
probably a Strange, but I haven't found sufficient evidence to prove
it. Morant's History of Essex, 2: 360-1, gives a garbled account of
this family. He identifies this Philip le Despenser's wife as either
____ Strange or Margaret Cobham. Muskett (1897) says Philip's wife
is Joan Strange, but Complete Peerage 6 (1926):289, note b, discusses
and sets that aside, giving his wife as Elizabeth (---).
One good clue to the identity of Sir Philip le Despenser's wife is his
appearance in an 1383 indenture involving the marriage settlement of
William Willoughby, 5th Lord Willoughby of Eresby, and Lucy le
Strange, daughter of Roger le Strange, 5th Lord Strange of Knockin.
This item is found in the A2A Catalogue. On the date, 23 April
1382/3, Robert de Willoughby (father of the groom) bound himself to
Lady Aline le Strange (mother of the bride) and Philip le Despenser to
enfeoff the said William and Lucy and their heirs with the manors of
Wheatacre, Edgefield, and Walcott in co. Norfolk, or with land of
equivalent value. The indenture further provided that if the said
Lucy, "wife of William, Robert's eldest son, and daughter of Aline,"
should die within 5 years after the Wednesday after Epiphany last past
without issue, Robert and his heirs are to pay to Aline or Philip 400
marks within the two years after Lucy's death.
The fact that Sir Philip le Despenser and Aline le Strange (mother of
the bride) were acting together on behalf of the bride suggests that
Philip le Despenser (or his wife) were closely related to this Strange
family. This matter deserves needs further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
< My descent is as follows:
<
< 1. Elizabeth de Vermandois - Robert de Beaumont
<
< 2. Robert II de Beaumont - Amicie de Gae
< 3. Marguerite de Beaumont - Raoul V de Conches
< 4. Ida de Tosny - Roger Bigod II
< 5. Hugh Bigod III - Maud Marshall
< 6. Isabel Bigod - John Fitzgeoffrey
< 7. Maud Fitzjohn - William de Beauchamp
< 8. Isabel de Beauchamp - Hugh le Despenser
< 9. Phillip le Despenser - Margaret de Goushill
< 10. Phillip le Despenser - Joan Strange
< 11. Sir Phillip le Despenser - Margaret Cobham
< 12. Sir Phillip le Despenser - Elizabeth Tybotot
< 13. Margaret le Despenser - Sir Roger Wentworth
< 14. Margaret Wentworth - Sir William Hopton
< 15. Margaret Hopton - Sir Phillip Booth
< 16. Audrey Booth - Sir William Lytton
< 17. Sir Robert Lytton - Frances Cavelery
< 18. Anne Lytton - Sir John Borlase
< 19. Anne Borlase - Sir Euseby Isham
< 20. William Isham - Mary Brett
< 21. Capt. Henry Isham - Katherine Banks Royall
notnek202
Nov 11, 2011, 7:55:57 PM11/11/11
to
Found this on the internet so not sure if it is correct
Elisabeth de Vermandois (1081 - 1131)
is your 29th great grandmother
Robert II 'Le Bossu' de Beaumont 2nd Earl of Leicester (1104 - 1168)
Son of Elisabeth
Marguerite de Beaumont ( - 1185)
Daughter of Robert II 'Le Bossu' de Beaumont
Ida de Tosny
Daughter of Marguerite
Hugh Bigod 3rd Earl of Norfolk (1182 - 1225)
Son of Ida
Isabel Bigod
Daughter of Hugh Bigod
Maud FitzJohn ( - 1301)
Daughter of Isabel
Isabel de Beauchamp (1306 - )
Daughter of Maud
Maud De Chaworth (1282 - 1322)
Daughter of Isabel
ELEANOR Plantagenet (1311 - 1371)
Daughter of Maud
ALICE Fitz Alan (1352 - 1415)
Daughter of ELEANOR
Eleanor HOLAND (1392 - 1405)
Daughter of ALICE
Alice MONTAGU (1406 - 1462)
Daughter of Eleanor
John NEVILLE (1431 - 1471)
Son of Alice
Lucy NEVILLE (1466 - 1534)
Daughter of John
Margaret FITZWILLIAM
Daughter of Lucy
Barbara GASCOIGNE (1517 - )
Daughter of Margaret
John West (1535 - )
Son of Barbara
Nicholas West (1554 - 1601)
Son of John
Richard West (1579 - 1643)
Son of Nicholas
John West (1620 - )
Son of Richard
William West (1645 - 1708)
Son of John
Mary WEST (1688 - )
Daughter of William
James GREEN (1727 - 1788)
Son of Mary
Barbary Ann GREEN (1767 - 1858)
Daughter of James
Mary Polly Alfrey (1793 - 1881)
Daughter of Barbary Ann
Hiram Green (1830 - 1903)
Son of Mary Polly
William Scott Green (1858 - 1931)
Son of Hiram
Mable Rae Green (1892 - 1982)
Daughter of William Scott
Helen Rosalie Triplett
Daughter of Mable Rae
Robert David Brandt (1940 - )
Son of Helen Rosalie
Kenton James Brandt
Wjhonson
Nov 12, 2011, 3:27:13 PM11/12/11
to kbran...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Alice did not die in 1415
She died 17 Mar 1415/16
Eleanor was not born in 1392, rather she was born "about 1373" her daughter Anne was born 27 Dec 1390
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
Douglas Richardson
Nov 12, 2011, 4:39:11 PM11/12/11
to
On Nov 12, 1:27 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Alice did not die in 1415
> She died 17 Mar 1415/16
>
> Eleanor was not born in 1392, rather she was born "about 1373" her daughter Anne was born 27 Dec 1390
>
> ALICE Fitz Alan (1352 - 1415)
> Daughter of ELEANOR
>
> Eleanor HOLAND (1392 - 1405)
> Daughter of ALICE
A few comments are in order.
> Alice did not die in 1415
> She died 17 Mar 1415/16
>
> Eleanor was not born in 1392, rather she was born "about 1373" her daughter Anne was born 27 Dec 1390
>
> ALICE Fitz Alan (1352 - 1415)
> Daughter of ELEANOR
>
> Eleanor HOLAND (1392 - 1405)
> Daughter of ALICE
Alice Fitz Alan above was never a Fitz Alan. She was Alice Arundel.
Her family changed their surname to Arundel some years before her
birth. The surname Fitz Alan vanishes from records after 1313.
As far as I know, there is no known birth date for Alice Arundel. So
the 1352 birth date for her is without merit, although it is probably
close to the actual date. Alice died intestate 17 March 1415/16.
Alice Arundel's daughter, Eleanor Holand above, was born 29 Nov. 1384,
which date and its source can be found in the 2nd editions of either
of my two books. Will is wrong to state she was born about 1373. He
might as well have plucked the date 1373 from the sky. Perhaps he
did.
Eleanor Holand had no daughter named Anne born in 1390. Rather,
Eleanor Holand had a sole daughter and heiress, Alice Montagu, who was
born about 1405–6 (aged 22 in 1428, 24 in 1429). Again this can be
found in my books.
There is no known death date for Eleanor Holand, so again the date
1305 is purely imaginary. Eleanor Holand was last known to be living
8 Oct. 1413. According to her husband’s will, following her death she
was buried at Bisham Priory, Berkshire. Eleanor Holand died sometime
before Sept. 1424, when her husband, Thomas Montagu, is known to have
been married to his 2nd wife, Alice Chaucer.
DR
Douglas Richardson
Nov 12, 2011, 5:13:42 PM11/12/11
to
In my previous post, I stated that Eleanor Holand died sometime before
DR
Sept. 1424, when her husband, Thomas Montagu, is known to have been
married to his 2nd wife, Alice Chaucer.
I meant to say June 1424, not Sept. 1424.
married to his 2nd wife, Alice Chaucer.
DR
Wjhonson
Nov 12, 2011, 5:50:51 PM11/12/11
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Douglas suggests that I plucked the year 1373 from the sky because he lacks the ability to consult known databases, where he would find, as well as in this list's archives... that year stated.
However I do credit him with the utter ignorance of realizing that there were two Eleanor de Holland's here, and I plucked the wrong one.
Eleanor evidently the second child married Roger Mortimer 4th Earl of March 7 Oct 1388 and their daughter Anne whom I did not make up, but rather Douglas ignored was born in fact on 27 Dec 1390.
This Eleanor married secondly Edward Lord Cherleton and had two more daughters, both ancestral to Diana.
However the Eleanor of this thread was apparently her younger sister of the same name, as amazing as that might be, who married Thomas Earl of Salisbury and their daughter was heiress of that title/place.
So I was merely looking at the wrong sister Eleanor.
Douglas is welcome to weasel sideways and see what dog soup he can make of that.
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:50 pm
Subject: Re: Descent from Elizabeth (Isabel) Vermandois
However I do credit him with the utter ignorance of realizing that there were two Eleanor de Holland's here, and I plucked the wrong one.
Eleanor evidently the second child married Roger Mortimer 4th Earl of March 7 Oct 1388 and their daughter Anne whom I did not make up, but rather Douglas ignored was born in fact on 27 Dec 1390.
This Eleanor married secondly Edward Lord Cherleton and had two more daughters, both ancestral to Diana.
However the Eleanor of this thread was apparently her younger sister of the same name, as amazing as that might be, who married Thomas Earl of Salisbury and their daughter was heiress of that title/place.
So I was merely looking at the wrong sister Eleanor.
Douglas is welcome to weasel sideways and see what dog soup he can make of that.
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:50 pm
Subject: Re: Descent from Elizabeth (Isabel) Vermandois
Wjhonson
Nov 12, 2011, 5:54:29 PM11/12/11
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
We can get more specific than this, as Eleanor de Holland was known to be living 1422 as well.
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: Descent from Elizabeth (Isabel) Vermandois
Subject: Re: Descent from Elizabeth (Isabel) Vermandois
Blood Royal1964
Nov 21, 2011, 4:14:09 AM11/21/11
to
Do you want dates and locations as well as sources?
I descend on many lines and it would be better if I could just take
the line from me back to a "gateway" person.
Michael Warner
Blood Royal1964
Nov 21, 2011, 4:17:53 AM11/21/11
to
gateway persons as this would save soooo much time on my end
looking at each line in my GEDCOM's for both my mother and father who
trace back to the first settlers of the "New World" on
many many lines.
Thank You,
Michael Warner
Douglas Richardson
Nov 21, 2011, 9:52:24 AM11/21/11
to
On Nov 21, 2:14 am, Blood Royal1964 <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
< Mr. Richardson,
<
< Do you want dates and locations as well as sources?
<
< I descend on many lines and it would be better if I could just take
< the line from me back to a "gateway" person.
<
< Michael Warner
Michael ~
< Mr. Richardson,
<
< Do you want dates and locations as well as sources?
<
< I descend on many lines and it would be better if I could just take
< the line from me back to a "gateway" person.
<
< Michael Warner
Just names, no dates is sufficient for your line of descent from
Isabel de Vermandois. If you want to supply dates, that would be
fine, too. I took my line of descent down to my gateway ancestor
without giving dates. I skipped the part of the descent from the
gateway ancestor to myself. Other people have taken their line all
the way down to themselves and provided dates. Either/or works. As
long as you get your line down to about 1600, that should be
sufficient.
Most people have multiple lines of descent. I suggest you pick one
that interests you and post that. If you have a line of descent with
a problem, you might want to post that one also and see if someone can
help you resolve the problem. Myself I chose a descent that featured
a newly proven line of descent from Isabel de Vermandois. I picked
that one over others than were better known and had been in print for
many decades.
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