Pennington and Lacy
mj...@btinternet.com
families.
Rosie Bevan posted here some time ago details of the Penningtons'
descent from the Longvilliers family, viz:
1. Eudes de Longvilliers, seneschal to Robert de Lacy; father of
2. Sir Eudes de Longvilliers, died 1229; father of
3. Sir John de Longvilliers, died 1254; father of:
4. Agnes, married Thomas Pennington, died 1240.
The A2A document, from the Pennington papers at the Cumbria RO (D
Pen/10/1) adds:
"(Edward I) Charter of Alicia de Lascy of Crumwelbochyn, widow,
daughter of Alan de Pennington: to William de Wayburthwayt, granting
all her land with appurtenances in Wytewra in the territory of Cornay".
Presumably Alice de Lacy was the granddaughter of Thomas Pennington and
Agnes de Longvilliers.
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
m...@btinternet.com schrieb:
> A document in A2A shows a link between the Lacy and Pennington
> families.
>"(Edward I) Charter of Alicia de Lascy of Crumwelbochyn, widow,
> daughter of Alan de Pennington: to William de Wayburthwayt, granting
> all her land with appurtenances in Wytewra in the territory of Cornay".
An additional reference linking the families, from the Towneley papers
in the Lancs Record Office:
"(DDTO K1/18) (undated) Confirmation: Alan de Pennington, son and heir
of the late Thomas de Pennington, to John de Lascy of Crumbewelbothum:
land in Bridtwisel, demised to Peter de Cestr' for his life."
Perhaps this transaction was concerned with Alice Pennington's marriage
itself.
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
mj...@btinternet.com schrieb:
This online pedigree shows the Pennington-Lacy marriage (usual caveats
etc):
The...@aol.com
Dear 'MA-R',
Thanks for those posts re: the Penningtons, and Lacys of
Cromwellbotham. It would appear that the Pennington link has
a firm basis (while retaining assorted caveats re: the
pedigree from the link you provided), as I show the following
ties to Bridtwisel involving Henry de Lacy, son of John de
Lacy and Margaret de Eland (elder per the pedigree, younger
by my rendering):
1. Release dated 1328:
' Release: Walter s. of Nich. de Tours to Hen. de Lascy s. of
John de Lascy of Crumwelbothem & Beatrice dau. of John de
Calverley; an annual rent of lands & tenements in Bruddestwisel
& Dunnokshagh in Blaburnschir, Castelton, Ypotland, Hunresfeld
& Butterwrth in Rachedale (Seal) ' - A2A, Lancashire Record
Office: Towneley of Towneley , DDTO K 24/32
2. Grant dated 1361:
' Demise: Joan, formerly the wife of Hen. de Lascy of
Crumwelbothem, for my life, to Gilbert del Legh; all my lands
& tenements in Bridesthuesel which I have in the name of
dower ' - A2A, Lancashire Record Office: Towneley of
Towneley , DDTO O 12/73
These records appear to work better with the pedigree
presentation (i.e., with Henry being eldest son of John and
Margaret), including the reflection of two wives (Beatrice,
then Joan as widow).
I will post my current version of Lacy of Cromwellbotham
for your review in short order. This does not go too far
beyond the medieval range, but does indicate a need for
correction (either of my records, the on-line pedigree, or
possibly both).
Cheers,
John
mj...@btinternet.com
Ther...@aol.com schrieb:
John
Many thanks - I had noted from an archives search that the
Cromwellbotham Lacys were likely to fit in with some of your research -
I would be very interested to see your further material. I must try to
get hold of a copy of Foster's work on the Penningtons, in case I am
re-inventing the wheel.
Best wishes, Michael
The...@aol.com
Following is the pedigree of Lacy of Cromwellbotham, such as I now
show it. I have moved Henry de Lacy to the 'first' spot as elder son,
per my earlier post.
Your comments and criticism (re: this and the online pedigree)
will be most welcome.
Cheers,
John
1 John de Lacy
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1292[1]
Father: [alleged] Hugh de Lacy
' John de Lasci ', witness to a Grant, dated [13th cent.]:
' By Roger, son of Roger de Tornet, to Richard, son of Richard de
Fekisbi, of land in Staylande at an annual fee farm rent of 10d.
Witnesses John de Elande, Thomas de Morlande, John de Lasci
and others (named). Joperkick and Bradleygate are mentioned. '
[Publication Note: Yorkshire Archaeological Society Yorkshire Deeds
Vol iii no 391] - A2A, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Yorkshire
Archaeological Society: Clarke Thornhill of Fixby Collection,
Ancient Deeds [DD12/II/1-2/(m) Parcel 1], DD12/II/1/18(b)[2]
Spouse: Alicia de Pennington
Father: Alan de Pennington
Children: John (->1304)
1.1 John de Lacy
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 23 May 1304[1]
of Cromwellbotham, co. York
yeoman of Hugh Eland, 1296, on service in Scotland
' John de Lacy de Cromwelbothom', witness (together with his
father-in-law Hugh de Eland) to a deed dated ca. 1298:
' of Henry son of Richard de Hiperum, lord of Hiperum, to Thomas de
Tothill, of certain rents there, from tenants named in another deed dated
1298, the witnesses named are Hugh de Eland, Sir John de Heaton knight,
John de Lacy de Cromwelbothom, John de Stansfeld, Henry de
Rishworth and John del Rode. ' [Stansfield p. 107[3]]
defended his rights in Todmerdene and Hunredfeld under inquiry,
23 May 1304[1]
had grant of lands in Brudtwisel, co. Lancs.:
' Conf: Alan de Penyngton, s. & h. of the late Tho. de Penyngton to
Jo. de Lascy of Crumbewelbothum; land in Bridtwisel demised to Peter
de Cestr' for his life (Seal) ' - A2A, Lancashire Record Office:
Towneley of Towneley , DDTO K 1/18[2]
Spouse: Margaret de Eland[4]
Father: Sir Hugh de Eland (->1324)
Mother: Johanna de Tankersley (->1328)
Marr: ca 1293[5]
Children: Henry (-<1361)
Thomas (~1301-<1353)
Margaret
1.1.1 Henry de Lacy
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1361[2]
of Bridtwisel, co. Lancs.
Release dated 1328:
' Release: Walter s. of Nich. de Tours to Hen. de Lascy s. of John
de Lascy of Crumwelbothem & Beatrice dau. of John de Calverley; an
annual rent of lands & tenements in Bruddestwisel & Dunnokshagh in
Blaburnschir, Castelton, Ypotland, Hunresfeld & Butterwrth in
Rachedale (Seal) ' - A2A, Lancashire Record Office: Towneley
of Towneley , DDTO K 24/32[2]
grant dated 1361:
' Demise: Joan, formerly the wife of Hen. de Lascy of Crumwelbothem,
for my life, to Gilbert del Legh; all my lands & tenements in
Bridesthuesel which I have in the name of dower ' - A2A, Lancashire
Record Office: Towneley of Towneley , DDTO O 12/73[2]
Spouse: Joan
1.1.2 Thomas de Lacy
----------------------------------------
Birth: abt 1301[1]
Death: bef 1353[3],[1]
of Cromwellbotham, co. York
godfather of Mauger le Vavasour, then in his custody 1346 [1]
Spouse: Margaret[1]
Children: John (-ca1397)
Richard (-~1424)
1.1.2.1 John de Lacy
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1397
of Cromwellbotham, co. Yorks.
' In a deed dated 1353, whereby John son of Thomas de Lascy, gives to
John de Bollyng, Elias de Burton and John de Crossland, chaplain, his
manor of Cromwelbothom, occur as witnesses, Sir Brian de Thornhill,
Sir Henry de Sothill, knights, William de Mirfield, John Sayvell de
Eland, Robert de Bollyng, William de Leventhorp, William de Stansfeld,
and Hugh de Coppelay. ' [Stansfield, p. 118[3]]
witness to a deed dated 1363:
' John Savile of Eland, Henry Savile, John de Lacy, William de Stansfeld
and Thomas Culpon, witnessed the deed whereby Hugh Talvas gave to
Richard [de Heton] vicar of Halifax, the manor of Copley in 1363. '
[Stansfield, p. 118[3]]
1.1.2.2 Richard Lacy
----------------------------------------
Death: abt 1424[1]
of Cromwellbotham, co. York
seised of the manor of Cromwellbotham as heir of brother John Lacy, per
inquisition p.m. Pontefract, 4 Mar 1397/98
granted land in Southowram to Oliver Woodrove, 20 Jul 1416[1]
Children: John
1.1.2.2.1 John Lacy[1]
----------------------------------------
of Cromwellbotham, co. York
witness to deeds in Rastrick and Fixby, 1421 - 1448; released land in
Southowram, 1457; executor of will of Richard Peck of Southowram,
3 Mar 1439 [1]
Janet Lacy, wife of Nicholas identified as 'daughter of John Lacy,
Esq. of Cromwellbotham'[6]
Spouse: Emmota[1]
Children: John (~1395-<1474)
Janet (->1474)
1.1.2.2.1.1 John Lacy
----------------------------------------
Birth: abt 1395[1]
Death: bef 7 Jun 1474[1],[7]
Occ: lord of Cromwellbotham
of Cromwellbotham, co. York
received certain rights for life of Joan Thornhill, widow in Fixby,
16 Jan 1443/44
'John Lacy of Cromwelbothum', will dated 5 April 1474, proved 7 June
1474 [Halifax Wills I:18-19[7]]
Spouse: [alleged] Florence Molyneux[1]
Children: William (-<1474)
Richard
Gilbert (-<1492)
1.1.2.2.1.1.1 William Lacy
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 6 May 1474, d.v.p.[7]
heir presumptive of his father, d.v.p.[7]
Children: Thomas
Edward (->1487)
1.1.2.2.1.1.1.1 Thomas Lacy
----------------------------------------
of Cromwellbotham, co. York[7]
heir of grandfather John Lacy, per inq.p.m. 6 May 1474[7]
Bond dated 27 September 1487:
' By Thomas Lacy of Cromwelbothom, co. York, esquire, to Thomas
Stapilton, esquire, in £100.
Condition - If Thomas Lacy and all others interested obey the
judgement of Thomas, archbishop of York, who is arbitrating between
him and Thomas Stapilton concerning the manor of Whermby and other
lands etc. there and elsewhere in the parish of Huddresfeld, late
of William de Wermby, the bond shall be void. ' -A2A, West
Yorkshire Archive Service, Yorkshire Archaeological Society:
Clarke Thornhill of Fixby Collection, DD12/II/1/4[2]
The award of Thomas, archbishop of York, dated 2 Oct 1487:
' In the dispute between Thomas Stapylton, esquire, and Thomas Lacy
of Cromwelbothom, esquire, concerning the ownership of the manor of
Whernby and lands etc. in Lynley Wodhose Scamanden and Staneland.
Thomas Lacy has no right in the premises and shall execute a deed
of release to Stapilton and shall cause his brother Edward Lacy,
priest, to do the like. '
-A2A, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Yorkshire Archaeological
Society: Clarke Thornhill of Fixby Collection, DD12/II/1/6[2]
Children: Cecily
John (->1530)
1.1.2.2.1.1.1.1.1 Cecily Lacy
----------------------------------------
identified in pedigree of Savile[7]
re: her husband:
of Welburn, North Riding, co. York[6]
Gent., of Blaithroid [Blaidroid], in Southowram in his will[8]
Spouse: Thomas Savile
Death: bef 20 May 1531[8]
Father: Nicholas Savile (-<1527)
Mother: Margery Wilkinson
1.1.2.2.1.1.1.1.2 John Lacy
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 15 Feb 1530[8]
of Cromwellbotham, co. Yorks.
witness of will of brother-in-law Thomas Savile, dated 15 Feb 1530/31[8]
[then styled, 'Maister John Lacye, of Cromwellbotham']
Children: Richard
1.1.2.2.1.1.1.1.2.1 Richard Lacy
----------------------------------------
of Cromwellbotham, co. Yorks.
Children: John (-1582)
1.1.2.2.1.1.1.1.2.1.1 John Lacy
----------------------------------------
Death: 1582, d.v.p.[9]
of Leventhorpe
heir of his father
' Reference: DD12/II/22/11
Creation dates: 1582-1588
Scope and Content
Deeds transferring the mills from John Lacy of Leventhorpe, son and
heir apparent of Richard Lacy of Cromwellbotham, to John Lacy of
Brearley.
will of John Lacy of Leventhorpe, 1582 [Turner p. 227[9]]
Reference: DD12/II/22/11/(a)
Grant
Creation dates: 21 March 1588
Scope and Content
Of three parts in performance of a covenant.
Publication Note
Yorkshire Archaeological Society Yorkshire Deeds Vol. v no. 36
Reference: DD12/II/22/11/(b)
Copy of court roll
Creation dates: 24 August 1582
Scope and Content
Witnessing the entailing of the fulling mill and fourth part of
corn mill on John Lacy, son of Richard Lacy, and his heirs male.
Publication Note
Yorkshire Archaeological Society Yorkshire Deeds Vol. v no. 36
Reference: DD12/II/22/11/(c)
Copy of court roll
Creation dates: 1 September 1587
Scope and Content
Witnessing to the transfer of the fulling mill and fourth part
of the corn mill from John Lacy (son of Richard) and Helena,
his wife (the latter being separately.
Publication Note
Yorkshire Archaeological Society Yorkshire Deeds Vol. v no. 36
Reference: DD12/II/22/11/(d)
Bond
Creation dates: 22 July 1587
Scope and Content
Of John Lacy (son of Richard) in 250l. to perform his covenants.
Publication Note
Yorkshire Archaeological Society Yorkshire Deeds Vol. v no. 36
Reference: DD12/II/22/11/(e)
Two parts of a final concord
Creation dates: 1588
Scope and Content
Between John Lacy and Helena, his wife, deforciants, and John
Lacy of Brearley, querent, concerning three parts of the water
mill etc.
Publication Note
Yorkshire Archaeological Society Yorkshire Deeds Vol. v no. 36
Reference: DD12/II/22/12
Grant
Creation dates: 17 April 1590
Scope and Content
By John Lacy of Breerleye to Marmaduke Eland, son and heir of
Robert Eland, of an annuity of 5l. from the mills in accordance
with an agreement made 18 January 18 Elizabeth between the said
Marmaduke and John Lacy of Leventhorpe, predecessor in title to
the said John Lacy of Breereleye.
Publication Note
Yorkshire Archaeological Society Yorkshire Deeds Vol. v
no. 38 ' - A2A, Yorkshire Archaeological Society: Clarke
Thornhill of Fixby Collection, DD12/II/22/12[2]
1.1.2.2.1.1.2 Richard Lacy[7]
----------------------------------------
prob. second son
beneficiary of the will of Katherine Montford of Doncaster,
2 Jan 1498/99 (Surtees Soc. Vol LIII, pp. 154-155)[8]
Children: John
1.1.2.2.1.1.2.1 John Lacy[7]
----------------------------------------
possibly beneficiary in will of Katherine Montford, 2 Jan 1498/99[8]
' To John Lacy, son of Richard Lacy, xl.s.' - will of grandfather
John Lacy [Halifax Wills I:18[7]]
1.1.2.2.1.1.3 Gilbert Lacy
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 6 Oct 1492[7]
Occ: lord of Brearley Hall
of Brearley Hall, co. York de jure uxoris
prob. third son.
received grants of tenancy in Southowram, Northowram and Hipperholme
from Thomas Nelson, mercer of York and his son Thomas, 1475/76,
1481, 1484/85 [Halifax Wills, Vol II, will of Christofer Lacy,
p. 211n[7] ][1]
beneficiary under and coexecutor of the will of his father John
Lacy, will dated 5 April 1474 and proven 7 June 1474 [Halifax
Wills I: 18-19[7] ]:
'To Gilbert Lacy, his wife sons and daughters, v marcs to be
equally divided amongst them.......
'Residue to Richard Lacy and Gilbert Lacy my sons, Persevell
Amyas and John Rysshworth aforesaid, whom I appoint executors,....'[7]
lord of Brearley Hall, co. York de jure uxoris
identified as 'Gilbert Lacy of Brierly, co. York' in pedigree
of Southill of Redbourn[10]
'Gilbert Lacy parishioner of Halifax', will dated 28 June 1492,
proved 6 Oct 1492, naming wife Johanna and son Arthur executors
[Halifax Wills I:26[7]]
re: his wife:
heiress of Brearley Hall [5]
named as 'Jane', wife of Gilbert Lacy in pedigree of Southill of
Redbourn[10]
unnamed wife of Gilbert Lacy, living at date of will of John Lacy
of Cromwellbotham, 5 April 1474[7]
'Johanna my wife', will of husband Gilbert Lacy dated 28 June 1492,
proved 6 Oct 1492 (names wife Johanna and son Arthur executors)
[Halifax Wills I:26[7]]
Spouse: Johanna Soothill
Death: aft 28 Jun 1492[7]
Father: Sir Gerard Soothill of Redbourne, co. Lincs. (1398-ca1464)
Mother: Elizabeth Fulnetby
Children: Gerard Lacy, Esq., of Brearley Hall (-<1534)
Joan (->1474)
Edward
Christopher (-<1518)
Agnes (->1518)
Arthur
1.1.2.2.1.2 Janet Lacy
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 5 Apr 1474[7]
'Jenet, daughter of John Lacy, Esq. of Cromwellbotham' in pedigree
of Savile[6]
'To Nicholas Savyll and his wife sons and daughters Xli to be equally
among them' - will of brother John Lacy, 5 April 1474 [Halifax
Wills I;18[7]]
Spouse: Nicholas Savile, of Banke in Southowram
Death: aft 5 Apr 1474[7]
Father: Henry Savile of Copley (->1437)
Mother: Eleanor Copley
Children: John
Janet
Elizabeth
Ellen
Alice
Agnes
Thomas
1.1.3 Margaret de Lacy
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Thomas de Thornhill
Father: Sir John de Thornhill (-<1322)
Mother: Beatrice Talboner (->1334)
Marr: bef 12 May 1325[11]
Children: Richard (-<1406)
1. "Some Early Lacys," E. Lacey, Rootsweb World Connect Project
(www. rootsweb.com), extracted 23 Aug 2000,
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~elacey/delacy_wbg/
2. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
3. John Stansfield, "History of the Family of Stansfeld of Stansfield
in the Parish of Halifax," Leeds: Goodall and Suddick, 1885.
4. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.), 'The Visitation of Yorkshire
in the Years 1563 and 1564'.
5. Alvahn Holmes, "The Farrar's Island Family and its English Ancestry,"
Baltimore: Gateway Press, Inc., 1972, reprinted 1986, cites Rev. C.
V. Collier, 'Documents at "Burton Agnes" ', East Riding Society,
vols. 18-19 (1911-1912), providing abstracts of 6 deeds relating
to Kelke and identifying members of the Kelke family.
6. "Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire," compiled by Joseph
Foster, London: W. Wilfred Head, 1874 (2 Vols.).
7. J. W. Clay, F.S.A., and E. W. Crossley, editors, "Halifax Wills,"
(privately printed for the editor), Vol. I (1389 to 1544); Vol II
(1545-1559).
8. "Testamenta Eboracensia [Selection of Wills, Reg. at York]," The
Surtees Society, Andrews & Co., Durham (J. B. Nichols & Sons,
London), Vol. IV, Pt. I: 1869, IV:50-52, will of Isabella Deincourt
(wife of Sir William fitz William) d. 1348, IV:97-99, will of
Marmaduke Constable (d. 1378), see pp. 100-101 for will of Sir
Martin de la See, IV:418-419, will of Isabella Salvayn.
9. J. Horsfall Turner, "The History of Brighouse, Rastrick, and
Hipperholme," Bingley, Yorkshire: Thomas Harrison and Sons, 1893,
.pdf image files provided by Ancestry.com www.ancestry.com.
10. "The Visitation of Lincolnshire," Harleian Society, Harleian Series,
Vols. 50-52 (Lincolnshire, Vols. I-III), II:555-557, Kelke of
Barnetby, III: 884-886, Skerne of Bonby and Waltham.
11. William Brown, F.S.A., ed., "Yorkshire Deeds, Vol. III," The
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, 1922, Record
series vol. LXIII - for the year 1922.
WJho...@aol.com
and then also
a Joan FitzWilliam married to Brian Thornhill
Are these two Joan's the same woman ?
Thanks
Willl Johnson
The...@aol.com
Dear Will,
The answer to your 'two Joan's FitzWilliam' query is, they are not
the same individual. This was touched on in a number of posts (some
referenced below), the resolution of which is as shown in the
pedigree below:
1. Joan FitzWilliam, wife of Sir Brian de Thornhill, was a
daughter of Sir William FitzWilliam of Sprotborough (d.
aft 4 Mar 1338/9), evidently by his wife Isabel Deincourt.
See # 1.2 below.
2. Joan FitzWilliam, wife of Henry de Sotehill (or Soothill),
was evidently the daughter of Sir William FitzWilliam
(murdered 1398) by his wife Maud Cromwell. See
# 1.1.1.1.3a below.
{Please note, the following pedigree is for illustration purposes
primarily, and is not intended to be complete.}
Cheers,
John *
1 Sir William FitzWilliam
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 4 Mar 1338[1],[2]
Occ: lord of Emley and Sprotborough
Father: Sir William FitzThomas (-<1295)
Mother: Agnes Metham
of Sprotborough and Emley, co. York[3]
executor of his father's will, 1294
' William le fitz William ', knight, serving with the army of King
Edward I in Scotland
fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298
: his arms are recorded as
' Or a fess gules ' (Falkirk Roll H81[4])
' Sir William FitzWilliam FitzThomas ', witness (together with
William de fleming, Sir Hugh de Eland, Sir John de Sotehill and
others) to grant by Thomas de Horbyri, brother and heir of John
of Horbyri to Sir Nicholas de Wortelay of the manor of
Shetelingthon [Shitlington], ca. 1300 [A2A, Sheffield Archives:
Wharncliffe Muniments [Wh M/D/01 - Wh M/P/13], Wh M/D/627[5]
release dated 12 May 1303:
' 1) Wm. Fitzwilliam, kt.
2) Rob. de Raynebergh and wife Alice.
(1) to (2) all lands in Addewyk (1) inherited after death of aunt
Agnes, d. of Thos. Fitzwilliam.
Witn.: John de Donecastre, Rob. Tilly, John de Eland,
Ingelram Folenfaunt, etc.
At Doncaster, Sun. after St. John of Beverley, 31 Edw.I.'
[Armorial seal.] - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe
of Osberton: Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/FJ/2 - DD/FJ/10],
DD/FJ/1/194/20[5]
his uncle ' Roger de la Wodehall', d. before 1308, survived by
his widow Maud:
' In 1308 Maud widow of Roger de la Wodehall complained
against William Fitzwilliam, his brother, Edmund, and others for
trespass at la Woodhall near Wombwell. '[6]
found to be coheir of the estate of Sir Roger Bertram, 29 Jan
1310/11 (following death of Agnes Bertram, his daughter)
[CP II:162 [1] ]
fine dated 18 Edward II [1324/25] :
' There was a fine levied, 18 Edward II, between William, son
of William, Quer. and Edmund, parson of the church of Plumtre,
deforc. of the manor of Plumtre, with the Appurtenances, and
the advowson of the church of the same manor, whereby it was
settled on the said William Fitz-William, and the heirs of his
body; Remainder to John son of the said William and the heirs
male of his; Remainder to Thomas, brother of John in like fort;
Remainder to Joan, sister of Thomas, and the heirs male of her
body; Remainder to Agnes, and to Isabel, her sisters respectively
in the same manner; remainder to the right heirs of the said
William.' { MichaelAnne Guido, extract from Thoroton, Antiquities
of Nottinghamshire, Vol. III, page 135 [sub Plumptre and
Normanton][7]}
summoned for military service against the Scots, 5 Apr 1327 (not
summoned for Parliament)[1]
imprisoned in 1327:
' Gaol delivery at York Castle, Wm son of William of Emley, kt,
John his son and Brian of Thornhill, accused of killing Richard
Playce at Dringhouses, put themselves on the county are found
not guilty ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford:
Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/SR/216 - DD/SR/237], DD/SR/231/52[5]
' Willielmus filius Willielmi dominus de Sprotbrugh ', confirmed
grants of his ancestors in an inspeximus for Hanepole abbey,
1331 [ Mon. Angl. V:486, Num. III[8]]
cf. CP V:518-519, sub _FitzWilliam_[1]
Spouse: Isabel Deincourt
Death: aft 25 Jul 1348[7]
Father: Sir Edmund Deincourt (>1249-1326)
Mother: Isabel de Mohun
Children: Sir John (-1349) [* possibly son of a prior wife]
Thomas (-<1348)
Margaret
Joan (->1347) [m. Sir Brian Thornhill - see below]
Agnes
Isabel
1.1 Sir John FitzWilliam
----------------------------------------
Death: 10 Aug 1349[1]
Occ: lord of Emley and Sprotborough
of Sprotborough, co. York[3]
2nd son, heir of brother William (d.v.p. ca. 1322)[1]
imprisoned in 1327:
' Gaol delivery at York Castle, Wm son of William of Emley, kt,
John his son and Brian of Thornhill, accused of killing Richard
Playce at Dringhouses, put themselves on the county are found not
guilty ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford:
Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/SR/216 - DD/SR/237], DD/SR/231/52[5]
' Johanni filio meo', will of his mother Isabella Deincourt,
25 July 1348 [Testa. Ebor. I:50, No. 40[9]]
release dated 9 March 1343/44 [witnessed by his brother-in-law
Sir Brian de Thornhill]:
' Thomas Flemyngs of Clifton to John Fitzwilliam, of all burdens,
dues and services due in his 3 weekly court for the manor of Wath.
For a red rose at the Nativity of St John the Baptist (24 June).
Witnesses: Bryan de Thornhill, William de Fyncheden, Elis de
Bryton, John de Dranfeld, John de Wodehall de Wath.
At Emley, Sunday before St Gregory (12 March), 1343/4.' [A2A,
Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments [WWM/C - WWM/E],
WWM/D/32[5] ]
~ evidence indicates he was not the son of Isabel Deincourt:
Licence dated 27 Dec 1324:
' To William Fitzwilliam and Isabel, his wife, to levy a fine to
Edmund Deyncourt.
In the manor of Emeleye, held of the King, as of his manor of
Wakefield; and his manor of Darthington, held of the King as of
his Honour of Pontefract, as the King is informed by Inquisition
made by Simon de Grymmesby, escheator for the counties of York,
Westmoreland, Northumberland and Cumberland.
To be to the use of William and Isabella. On default of a male
heir, then to the use of John Fitzwilliam, and thereafter to
specified uses.
The consideration is to be 12 marks.
At Nottingham, 27 December, 1324. ' [Seal: Great Seal of King
Edward II. Obverse: King enthroned in majesty: open crown of three
points fleury, sceptre ensigned with dove and branch. Throne of
elaborate tabernacle work, with back, rising sides, and front
pieces adorned with arcading. Foot board, or corbel, ornamented
with foliage and rings. Under foot, two small lions couchant
guardant; and, at each side of the throne, lion leaping up
towards the king.
...ANGLIE DOMINUS H...NIE DUX AQUITANIE
Reverse: Equestrian, King on horse to right, in haubert of chain
mail with crown, surcoat, spur, broad sword elevated and shield
or arms of England. Bardings of neck and flank of horse charged
with same arms reversed. ...WARDUS DEI GRATIA REX ANGLIE DNS H...]
- A2A, Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments
[WWM/C - WWM/E], WWM/D/26,27[5]
confirmation dated 20 Nov 1345:
' John Fitzwilliam of Emlay, knight, to William Frankys de Cateby
and John de Gray.
Confirming a grant made by his mother, Isabella de Emlay, of
20 acres of land and a third part of one toft, with appurtenances,
in Sprotburgh and Cateby.
Witnesses: John de Raddeklyf, parson of the Church of Sprotburgh,
Hugh de Sandall, Thomas de Huntyngfeld, William de Estfeld.
At Sprotburgh, Sunday after the octave of St Martin in winter
(11 November) 1345. ' - A2A, Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse
Muniments [WWM/C - WWM/E] , WWM/D/34 [5]
cf. CP V:519, sub _FitzWilliam_[1]
Spouse: Jane de Reresby[1]
Father: Sir Adam de Reresby (->1349)
Mother: NN
Children: Sir John (1327-~1385)
William
Elizabeth
NN
1.1.1 Sir John FitzWilliam
----------------------------------------
Death: abt 1385, Howden (murdered)[1]
Birth: 1327[1]
Occ: lord of Emley and Sprotborough
of Sprotborough, co. York[3]
' Dominus Iohannes Fitzwilliam miles = Elizabeth filia domini
Clynton comitis Huntingdon. ' [Vis. North pp. 74-76[3]]
' Johanni et Willielmo filiis Johannis filii mei '; ' Item Johanni
filio Johannis filii mei XX s.', beneficiary of the will of his
grandmother Isabella Deincourt, 25 July 1348 [Testa. Ebor. I:50,
No. 40[9]]
' 1365, Michaelmas - Fine between John Fitz William, knt., and
Elizabeth his wife, plaintiffs, and Thomas del Haye and Agnes his wife,
deforciants, of the fourth part of the manor of Darthynton [Darrington]
near Pontefract; to hold to John and Elizabeth and the heirs of John.
Warranty by Thomas and Agnes for themselves and the heirs of Agnes.'[10]
Subsidy Rolls (Poll Tax) for the year 1379, for Sprotborough
(Tickhill wapentake, Sprotbrough parish):
' Johannes fitz William, Chiualer, & Elizabetha uxor ejus...xx s. '[12]
said to have been murdered 'about 1385': however, record of his living
in 1390, grant by his son as heir of Sir John FitzWilliam, dated
10 Apr 1390:
' William Fitzwilliam, knight, son and heir of John Fitzwilliam,
knight to John de Clynton, Ralph de Cromwell, Robert de Swilyngton,
Robert de Rokley, knight, William Gascoigne and Gerard de Setchill.
Manor of Hathelsay with all appurtenences in the vills of
Easthathelsay, Midelhathelsay and Westhathelsay
Witnesses: John Savyll, sen., John Savyll jun., Thomas de Reresby,
knight, John Everyngham de Birkyn, Thomas Mauncell.
At Hathelsay, 10 April, 1390 [Seal: armorial, shield of arms,
lozengy, 7 pieces, under a tree, in the field on each side, sprigs
of foliage. S... WILLI... FILS... MILITIS... Round, 2½ cms. red,
on tag.] - A2A, Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments
[WWM/C - WWM/E], WWM/D/74[5]
cf. CP V:519, sub _FitzWilliam_[1]
elsewhere called William [HSP Yorkshire][13]
Spouse: Elizabeth de Clinton[14] [probably illegitimate]
Death: aft 21 Sep 1398[5]
Father: William de Clinton, Earl of Huntingdon (ca1300-1354)
Mother: NN [not married]
Children: Sir William (-1398)
Edmund (-<1436)
John (->1398)
Richard
Joan
1.1.1.1 Sir William FitzWilliam[13]
----------------------------------------
Death: 8 Apr 1398[15],[1]
Occ: lord of Emley
of Sprotborough, co. York [13]
Subsidy Rolls (Poll Tax) for the year 1379, for Sprotborough
(Tickhill wapentake, Sprotbrough parish):
' Willelmus fitz William, Chiualer, & Matilda uxor ejus....xx s. '[12]
re: his wife:
' Mawde doughter & on of theyres of Sir Raff Cromwell Lord of
Tatesall. ' [HSP 16:124, pedigree of Fitz William[13]]
'Receipt dated 20 Aug 1411:
' Matilda Fitzwilliam, lady of Hathilsay has received from Sir
John Fitzwilliam, her son, 50 marks, her dower for 1410/11. '
[Seal: indistinct. Round, 2½ cms, natural wax, on tag with a
wrapping tie.] - A2A, Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse
Muniments [WWM/C - WWM/E], WWM/D/78[5]
Spouse: Maud Cromwell[13]
Death: aft 20 Aug 1411[5]
Father: Sir Ralph Cromwell (-1398)
Mother: Maud Bernake (~1337-1419)
Marr: bef 1377[16]
Children: Sir John (1377-1417)
Edmund
Ralph
Elizabeth
Joan
1.1.1.1.1a Sir John FitzWilliam*
----------------------------------------
Birth: 25 Jul 1377[16]
Death: 5 Jul 1417[16],[15]
Knt., of Sprotborough, co. Yorks.
' Sir John Fytz William of Sprotborowe lived 6 Hen. V.
maryed = Elenor doughter of Sir Henry Grene of Dreton in
Northamptonshire.' [HSP 16:124, pedigree of Fitz William.[13]]
grantee (by Henry de Soothill) 1410/11,
' of his manor of Rawtonstall' Blackhagh, with all lands thereto
appurtenant in Stansfeld'
which he and others subsequently granted to Henry de Soothill and
his wife Joan (evidently Joan FitzWilliam his sister), 1413[5]:
Grant dated 12 Hen IV [1410-11]
' Grant by Henry Sothyll' to Sir John Fitzwilliam, Randolf
Fitzwilliam, Sir William Scote, perpetual vicar of the church
of Dewsbery, and Sir John Dewsbery, chaplain, of his manor
of Rawtonstall' Blackhagh, with all lands thereto appurtenant
in Stansfeld' (Rawtonstall, Yk Blackshaw, Yk Stansfield, Yk).'
A2A [DD/SR/26/77 ]
date: 1 Hen V [1413-14]
' Quitclaim by John Fitzwilliam, knight, Randolf Fitzwilliam,
and John Dewsbery, chaplain, in favour of Henry de Sotyll'
and Joan his wife of their claim to the manor of Rowtonstall'
and Blakschage with lands and tenements thereto appurtenant
in Stansfeld' (Rawtonstall, Yk Blackshaw, Yk Stansfield, Yk)'
- A2A [DD/SR/26/83 ][5],[17][ also grant dated 2 Jun 1413, manor
of Derton: A2A, Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments
[WWM/C - WWM/E], WWM/D/79[5]]
' John FitzWilliam, knight', witness (with his brothers and John
Bosvile of Ardsley) to settlement of 23 June 1414 [A2A, Sheffield
Archives: Estate Papers of the Copley Family, Baronets of
Sprotborough, CD/89[5]]
IPM of Sir John FitzWilliam, dated 31 March 1418 [A2A, Sheffield
Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments [WWM/C - WWM/E], WWM/D/82[5]
Spouse: Eleanor Greene
Death: bef 21 Dec 1422[16]
Father: Sir Henry Greene (-1399)
Mother: Maud Mauduit (1354-)
Marr: bef 1397[16]
Children: Maud
Sir John (1397-)
Nicholas
Ralph
Robert
William
Joan
1.1.1.1.2 Ralph FitzWilliam
----------------------------------------
' Randolf Fitzwilliam ', party (together with his brother Sir John) to
a series of fines, 1410-1413:
Grant dated 12 Hen IV [1410-11]
' Grant by Henry Sothyll' to Sir John Fitzwilliam, Randolf
Fitzwilliam, Sir William Scote, perpetual vicar of the church
of Dewsbery, and Sir John Dewsbery, chaplain, of his manor
of Rawtonstall' Blackhagh, with all lands thereto appurtenant
in Stansfeld' (Rawtonstall, Yk Blackshaw, Yk Stansfield, Yk).'
A2A [DD/SR/26/77 ]
date: 1 Hen V [1413-14]
' Quitclaim by John Fitzwilliam, knight, Randolf Fitzwilliam,
and John Dewsbery, chaplain, in favour of Henry de Sotyll'
and Joan his wife of their claim to the manor of Rowtonstall'
and Blakschage with lands and tenements thereto appurtenant
in Stansfeld' (Rawtonstall, Yk Blackshaw, Yk Stansfield, Yk)'
- A2A [DD/SR/26/83 ][5],[17][ also grant dated 2 Jun 1413, manor
of Derton: A2A, Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments
[WWM/C - WWM/E], WWM/D/79[5]]
C 1/38/177
William Birton and Johanne his wife, late wife of Henry Southill.
v. John Southill, son of the said Henry and Johanne.: Dower in
the manor of Southill. Outrageous conduct of defendant.: York.
[dated roughly 1386-1486 [18]]
1.1.1.1.3a Joan FitzWilliam*
----------------------------------------
shown in the Visitation record for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire as
the daughter of William FitzWilliam (d. 1398) and Maud
Cromwell[13],[19] - previously interpreted as an error,
unsupportable based on chronology[20]
evidence found concerning transactions between Henry de Soothill
and the FitzWilliam family, 1410-1413, now show that the relationship
in the Visitation pedigree is correct but that Henry de Soothill,
husband of Joan FitzWilliam was the great-grandson of the Sir Henry
de Soothill identified in the Visitation record.[17]
Grant dated 12 Hen IV [1410-11]
' Grant by Henry Sothyll' to Sir John Fitzwilliam, Randolf
Fitzwilliam, Sir William Scote, perpetual vicar of the church
of Dewsbery, and Sir John Dewsbery, chaplain, of his manor
of Rawtonstall' Blackhagh, with all lands thereto appurtenant
in Stansfeld' (Rawtonstall, Yk Blackshaw, Yk Stansfield, Yk).'
A2A [DD/SR/26/77 ]
date: 1 Hen V [1413-14]
' Quitclaim by John Fitzwilliam, knight, Randolf Fitzwilliam,
and John Dewsbery, chaplain, in favour of Henry de Sotyll'
and Joan his wife of their claim to the manor of Rowtonstall'
and Blakschage with lands and tenements thereto appurtenant
in Stansfeld' (Rawtonstall, Yk Blackshaw, Yk Stansfield, Yk)'
- A2A [DD/SR/26/83 ][5],[17][ also grant dated 2 Jun 1413, manor
of Derton: A2A, Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments
[WWM/C - WWM/E], WWM/D/79[5]]
C 1/38/177
William Birton and Johanne his wife, late wife of Henry Southill.
v. John Southill, son of the said Henry and Johanne.: Dower in
the manor of Southill. Outrageous conduct of defendant.: York.
[dated roughly 1386-1486 [18]]
__________________________
previously identified by Douglas Richardson as the daughter of
Sir John's father, Sir William Fitzwilliam by Isabel Deincourt
(see notes under Joan Deincourt, their daughter)[2]
Spouse: Henry Soothill [1st husband]
Death: aft 1429[5]
Father: Henry Soothill (->1410)
Marr: bef 2 Jun 1413[17],[5]
Children: John
Other Spouses William Burton
1.1.1.1.3b Joan FitzWilliam* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: William Burton [2nd husband]
1.2 Joan FitzWilliam [See Above]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 22 Dec 1347[21]
' Johannae filiae meae ', named in bequest in the will of her mother
Isabella Deincourt, 25 July 1348:
' Item Johannae filiae meae quartum jumentum melius
cum pullano, carrum meum cum harnes, et unum equum nigrum griseum
in illo tractante, unum lectum de Inde cum tapetis, unum psalterium
et unam bibliotecam novam. ' [Testa. Ebor. I:50, No. 40[9]]
' Joan, sister of Thomas ', named in a fine by her father,
dated 18 Edward II [1324/25] :
' There was a fine levied, 18 Edward II, between William, son of
William, Quer. and Edmund, parson of the church of Plumtre,
deforc. of the manor of Plumtre, with the Appurtenances, and
the advowson of the church of the same manor, whereby it was
settled on the said William Fitz-William, and the heirs of
his body; Remainder to John son of the said William and the
heirs male of his; Remainder to Thomas, brother of John in like
fort; Remainder to Joan, sister of Thomas, and the heirs male
of her body; Remainder to Agnes, and to Isabel, her sisters
respectively in the same manner; remainder to the right heirs
of the said William.' { MichaelAnne Guido, extract from Thoroton,
Antiquities of Nottinghamshire, Vol. III, page 135 [sub Plumptre
and Normanton][7]}
with regard to Joan FitzWilliam's brother John, and her parentage,
MichaelAnne Guido wrote:
' Joan Fitzwilliam was younger [born after the date of the marriage]
and there is adequate documentation showing her to be a daughter
of Isabel D'Eincout. Brian de Thornhill was mentioned in Isabel
D'Eincourt's [I believe he was one of the executors along with
another son-in-law and her stepson John Fitzwilliam] will in 1348,
and she named her daughter Joan Fitzwilliam in her will. '[22]
_______________________________________
' Lady Joan ', wife of Brian de Thornhill, quitclaim dated 21
Edw III [1347-8] :
' Quitclaim by Richard son of Thomas de Popilwell' in favour of
Sir Brian de Thornehill' knight and Lady Joan his wife of his
claim to lands and tenements in the fee of Gomersal' (Gomersall,
Yk) which he had previously granted to Brian and Joan, and also
to an annual rent of 12d from lands there.' - A2A,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate
Papers, DD/SR/26/61[5]
_______________________________________
other sources state, re: Joan FitzWilliam:
' Joan, daughter of Sir John Fitz-William, Knt. ' [pedigree of
Thornhill, of Fixby and Riddlesworth: Foster's Yorkshire
Pedigrees[23]]
parentage shown as cited by Brice Clagett:
' It was suggested on Monday that Joan FitzWilliam, alleged wife of
Sir Henry Sothill, was daughter of Sir John FitzWilliam (d. 1349)
and his wife, Jane de Reresby.
According to Watney's "The Wallop Family" 2:333, that couple did
have a daughter Joan, who in 1334 married Sir Bryan Thornhill.'[24]
as shown herein, this is impossible on chronological grounds. Also,
see the will of Isabel Deincourt, Lady FitzWilliam, in ref. to her
daughter Joan.
Spouse: Sir Brian de Thornhill
Birth: ca 1298[25],[5]
Death: aft 8 Dec 1365[5]
Father: Sir John de Thornhill (-<1322)
Mother: Beatrice Talboner (->1334)
Children: Simon
Joan
Elizabeth
Margaret
John
1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. Douglas Richardson, "Re: Sothill Chronology, a rehash of
Markenfield," Dec 30, 2001, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
3. "Visitations of the North, Part III:," A Visitation of The North
of England circa 1480-1500, Publications of the Surtees Society,
Vol. CXLIV, Durham: Andrews & Co.,, 1930, 78 et seq.
4. Brian Timms, "The Falkirk Roll," an occasional roll of arms of
those having fought at the Battle of Falkirk, July 1298,
http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/falkirkH.html
5. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
6. Douglas Richardson, "Deincourt/Tibetot--CP error?," 30 December
2001, cites Rev. Joseph Hunter South Yorkshire 2 (1831):92-94,
email royala...@msn.com.
7. MichaelAnne Guido, "Re: Savile of Thornhill and Copley: a
Plantagenet descent," 7 September 2004, email
Claud...@aol.com, cites PRO extracts; Baildon & the Baildons
by William Paley Baildon, Chapter Eleven - The Fitzwilliams,
p. 355, Thoroton, Antiquities of Nottinghamshire, Vol. III,
page 135; and other sources.
8. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding
& Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 -
Austin Abbey of Wigmore, in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356
[Fundationis et Fundatorum Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory
of Bullington, co. Lincs., pp. 951-954, URL
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliographia/index.php?function=detail&id=2659
9. "Testamenta Eboracensia [Selection of Wills, Reg. at York],"
The Surtees Society, Andrews & Co., Durham (J. B. Nichols & Sons,
London), Vol. IV, Pt. I: 1869, IV:50-52, will of Isabella
Deincourt (wife of Sir William fitz William) d. 1348, IV:97-99,
will of Marmaduke Constable (d. 1378), see pp. 100-101 for will
of Sir Martin de la See, IV:418-419, will of Isabella Salvayn.
10. W. Paley Baildon, "The Butlers of Skelbrook and Kirk Sandal,"
Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, Vol. 29 (1929), pp. 68-88,
text provided by David Hepworth, <BUTLER OF SKELBROOK AND KIRK
SANDAL>, SGM, 11 January 2005, email davidbh...@hotmail.com.
11. "Bosville Deeds," The Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical
Journal, Vol. XIII (1895), London: printed for the Association
by Bradbury, Agnew and Co., Whitefriars, E.C.
12. "Yorkshire Subsidy Rolls (Poll Tax) for the year 1379,"
transcribed from The Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical
Journals,
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/SubsidyRolls/WRY/Darfield.html
13. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower,
Esquire, Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell
and Hughes, Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of
Hastings of Elsing ('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.),
'The Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564'.
14. Paul C. Reed, "Two Unrelated Questions," Nov 25, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, responses to queries from Richard
Ledyard.
15. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
16. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial
and Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing
Company, 2004.
17. John P. Ravilious, "Soothill of Soothill, co. Yorks., Redbourn,
co. Lincs. & C - Pt I," Nov 9, 2002, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com,
cites records provided by the Public Record Office,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate
Papers.
18. "The National Archives," URL
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
19. "The Visitation of Lincolnshire," Harleian Society, Harleian
Series, Vols. 50-52 (Lincolnshire, Vols. I-III), II:555-557,
Kelke of Barnetby, III: 884-886, Skerne of Bonby and Waltham.
20. John Ravilious, "Sothill Chronology," Oct 15, 2001,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
21. William Brown, F.S.A., ed., "Yorkshire Deeds, Vol. II," The
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Record series
vol. L - 1914.
22. MichaelAnne Guido, "Re: Savile of Thornhill and Copley: a
Plantagenet descent," 7 September 2004, email
Claud...@aol.com, cites will of Isabel D'Eincourt (dated 1348).
23. "Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire," compiled by
Joseph Foster, London: W. Wilfred Head, 1874 (2 Vols.).
24. Brice Clagett, "Sothill chronology," 17 Oct 2001, email
bcla...@cov.com, cites Watney's "The Wallop Family" 2:333.
25. A. Gooder, Ph.D., "The Parliamentary Representation of the
County of York, 1258-1832, Vol. I," The Yorkshire Archaeological
Society, Record Series, Vol. XCI (1935), Wakefield: Printed for
the Society, 1935.
* John P. Ravilious
WJho...@aol.com
<< Children: Sir John (-1349) [* possibly son of a prior wife]
Thomas (-<1348)
Margaret
Joan (->1347) [m. Sir Brian Thornhill - see below]
Agnes
Isabel
1.1 Sir John FitzWilliam
----------------------------------------
Death: 10 Aug 1349[1]
Occ: lord of Emley and Sprotborough
of Sprotborough, co. York[3]
2nd son, heir of brother William (d.v.p. ca. 1322)[1] >>
John thank you for this detailed analysis.
In this snippet you say John is heir to his brother, but above, you don't
show that brother.
Will
WJho...@aol.com
<< C 1/38/177
William Birton and Johanne his wife, late wife of Henry Southill.
v. John Southill, son of the said Henry and Johanne.: Dower in
the manor of Southill. Outrageous conduct of defendant.: York.
[dated roughly 1386-1486 [18]] >>
This one can be dated a little better since we now know that Sir Henry de
Sothill, and Joan were still a couple on 1 Hen V [1413/4]
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
<< 1.1.1.1.3a Joan FitzWilliam*
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Henry Soothill [1st husband]
Death: aft 1429[5]
Father: Henry Soothill (->1410)
Marr: bef 2 Jun 1413[17],[5]
Children: John >>
Is not Gerard Sothill of Redbourne d 1 Aug 1410 who m Muriel Salvin a child
to this couple Joan and Henry Sothill ?
John P. Ravilious
This is what the Visitation pedigree shows, but it is wrong.
Sir Gerard Soothill was enfeoffed in Redbourne by John de Beckingham
and Beatrice his wife [possibly the mother of Sir Gerard] in 1371, so
it's safe to say he was born before 1360, and possibly before 1350.
This does not work well with the marriage of Henry Soothill and Joan
FitzWilliam, which can only be dated at 'before 2 June 1413' at
present.
I show Sir Gerard as the great-uncle of Henry Soothill of
Soothill (husband of Joan FitzWilliam); others believe him to be the
uncle of Henry. The Visitation placement is a major chronological non
sequitur.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
True enough (as I stated, the pedigree is not complete).
The elder brother was William, evidently a half brother (son of
Sir William by a first wife, evidently named Maude). William adhered
to the Earl of Lancaster, was captured after the battle of
Boroughbridge and executed at Pontefract 22 March 1321/2. See CP
V:519, sub _FitzWilliam_.
Cheers,
John
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< I show Sir Gerard as the great-uncle of Henry Soothill of
Soothill (husband of Joan FitzWilliam); others believe him to be the
uncle of Henry. >>
Chronologically he could even be the brother. If all we know is that he was
enfeoffed in 1371.
Will
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< The elder brother was William, evidently a half brother (son of
Sir William by a first wife, evidently named Maude). >>
What's the evidence that he was not a full brother ?
Thanks
Will
John P. Ravilious
If nothing further of the family were known, that might
(somehow) be true.
Please check the SGM archives; there are a number of threads
concerning the family, and these issues, including
"Soothill of Soothill, co. Yorks., Redbourn, co. Lincs. & C -
Pt I " (2002)
"Sothill Chronology redux" (2002)
"Markenfield-Southill (Soothill) Questions" (2003)
"Soothill Redux (was Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor,
New Hampshire " (2005)
Cheers,
John
mj...@btinternet.com
The...@aol.com schrieb:
> Dear Michael, et al.,
>
> Following is the pedigree of Lacy of Cromwellbotham, such as I now
> show it. I have moved Henry de Lacy to the 'first' spot as elder son,
> per my earlier post.
>
> Your comments and criticism (re: this and the online pedigree)
> will be most welcome.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
John
As usual, an impressive and well presented set of facts. Is there any
heraldic evidence that might assist in placing this family within the
main Lacy line? According to Hudleston and Boumphrey, Roger de Lacy, d
c1212, Sheriff of Yorkshire and Cumberland, bore Or, a lion rampant
purpure.
Best wishes, Michael
John P. Ravilious
I don''t see a ready answer to the heraldic question in
Papworth, and unfortunately my copy of Alvahn Holmes' work on the
Farrar family (which does have some details re: Lacy of Brearley, and
Cromwellbotham) is currently on loan.
I will copy this to another list member who is a Farrar
descendant, who might have a copy of Holmes' book to hand. I don't
recall an obvious link between the Cromwellbotham arms and those of the
better-known Lacy family, but my memory is not ...... What was I
saying....?
Cheers,
John