Revised Hastings pedigree
Douglas Richardson
I've copied below a preliminary revised draft of an extended pedigree
of the baronial Hastings family. If anyone knows of any corrections
or additions to this material, I'd appreciate knowing about them. The
revision below includes additional material on the Tudenham family not
included in the first draft.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
HASTINGS FAMILY PEDIGREE
1. William de Hastings, Knt., of Lidgate, Suffolk, Blunham,
Bedfordshire, Herling, Tibenham, and Gissing (in Diss), Norfolk, Aston-
Flamville, Barwell, Burbach, Nailstone, and Wistow, Leicestershire,
Haselover, Warwickshire, etc., king's steward, hereditary steward of
the Abbey of Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, +died 1224, m. Margaret (or
Margery) le Bigod, dau. of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, by Ida,
dau. of Ralph V de Tony.
2. Henry de Hastings, Knt., of Blunham, Bedfordshire, Barwell,
Burbach, Nailstone, and Wistow, Leicestershire, Ashill, Norfolk, Aston
(in Munslow), Shropshire, Lidgate, Suffolk, Allesley, Birdingbury, and
Fillongley, Warwickshire, etc., king’s steward, 1226/8, 1236,
hereditary steward of the Abbey of Bury St. Edmunds, b. about 1205, d.
sh. bef. 9 Aug. 1250. He m. in or after 1224 Ada of Huntingdon,
living 4 Aug. 1241, d. bef. Trinity term 1242.
3. Henry de Hastings, Knt., of Cavendish, Gazeley, Lidgate,
Little Udeley, Rede, etc., Suffolk, Barwell, Nailstone, and Wistow,
Leicestershire, Hastings (in Tottenham), Middlesex, Yardley Hastings,
Northamptonshire, Aston (in Munslow), Shropshire, Allesley and
Fillongley, Warwickshire, etc., hereditary steward of the liberty of
Bury St. Edmunds Abbey, born about 1235 (came of age 10 May 1256), d.
sh. bef. 4 March 1268/9. He m. in or bef. 1261 Joan de Cantelowe, d.
bef. June 1271.
4. John de Hastings, Knt., 1st Lord Hastings,
hereditary steward of the liberty of Bury St. Edmunds Abbey, Seneschal
of Aquitaine, b. at Allesley, Warwickshire 6 May 1262, d. 19 Feb.
1312/3. He. m. (1) at Braxted, Essex, or Blunham, Bedfordshire (by
papal dispensation dated 15 July 1275 Isabel de Valence; m. (2) in or
bef.1308 Isabel le Despenser, d. 4 (or 5) Dec. 1334, widow of Gilbert
de Clare, Knt. She m. (3) sh. bef. 20 Nov. 1318) Ralph de
Monthermer, Knt., 1st Lord Monthermer, sometime Earl of Gloucester and
Hertford.
5 (by 1). William de Hastings, m. by contract
dated 30 Sept. 1297 Eleanor Martin, d. 13 Dec. 1342. She m. (2) bef.
30 March 1318 Philip de Columbers, Knt., Lord Columbers.
5 (by 1). John de Hastings, 2nd Lord Hastings,
lord of Abergavenny, d. 20 Jan. 1324/5. m. Juliane de Leyburn, d. 31
Oct., 1 or 2 Nov. 1367. She m. (2) Thomas le Blount, Knt., of
Tibberton, Gloucestershire, Steward of the King’s Household; (3)
William de Clinton, Knt., Earl of Huntingdon.
5 (by 1). Joan de Hastings, died 1307, m. William
de Huntingfield, of Huntingfield, Suffolk, d. sh. bef. 24 Sept. 1313.
5 (by 1). Elizabeth de Hastings, m. Roger de Grey,
Knt., 1st Lord Grey of Ruthin, d. 6 March 1352/3.
5 (by 1). Margaret de Hastings, d. 7 July 1359, m.
(1) William Martin, 2nd Lord Martin, b. about 1294 (aged 30 in 1324),
d. sh. bef. 4 April 1326; (2) before 1 June 1326 Robert de Wateville,
Knt., Lord Wateville, d. sh. bef. 6 May 1330.
5 (by 2). Hugh de Hastings, Knt., of Sutton
Scotney, Hampshire, Steward to Queen Philippe of Hainault, Captain and
Lieutenant of the King in Flanders, and, in right of his wife, of
Gressenhall, Brisley, Elsing, and Weasenham, Norfolk, and Fenwick and
Norton, Yorkshire, b. about 1310 (aged 24 in 1334), d. 21 July 1347.
He m. bef. 18 May 1330 Margery Foliot, b. about 1312–3, d. 8 August
1349.
5 (by 2). Thomas de Hastings.
4. Edmund de Hastings, Knt., Lord Hastings, of
Inchmahome (or Inchemacolmok) (Isle of St. Colmoc), Perthshire,
Scotland, and Kempston, Bedfordshire, killed at the Battle of
Bannockburn 24 June 1314. He m. sh. aft. 5 Jan. 1292 Isabel Russell,
living 1306, widow of William Comyn.
4.. Ada de Hastings, d. before 1308-9, m. (1) about
dated 10 Dec. 1283 Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt., d. 1291; (2) bef. 1306
Robert de Champayne, of Great Doddington, Northamptonshire, living
1313.
4. Lora de Hastings, d. bef. 2 July 1339, m. before
July 1297 Thomas le Latimer, Knt., 1st Lord Latimer of Braybrook, d.
sh. bef. before 2 Feb. 1333/4.
4. Joan de Hastings, Prioress of Grace Dieu,
Leicestershire, d. sh. bef. 7 Dec. 1330.
3. Ada de Hastings, living 1260-1261, m. 1252 Hubert Hovel,
Knt., d. bef. Hilary term 1258.
3. Margery de Hastings, lving 1250.
3. Hillary de Hastings, living 1295. She m. (1) about 1256
William de Harcourt, Knt., of Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, d. sh.
bef. 19 April 1271; (2) before 1282 Robert de Frankeville, d. bef.
1295 .
2. Thomas de Hastings, Knt., living 1268.
2. Maud de Hastings, d. London 1264 or 1265, m. Gilbert Pecche,
Knt., of Great Thurlow, Suffolk, Bourn, Eversden, Guilden Morden,
Haslingfield, Kingston, Lolworth, Long Stanton, Madingley, Rampton,
Swaffham Prior, Wimpole, etc., Cambridgeshire, Birdbrook and Plechedon
(in Henham), Essex, Westcliffe, Kent, High Ercall, Shropshire, etc.,
d. 25 May 1291.
3. John Pecche, of Cheveley, Cambridgeshire, d. bef. 14 May
1296, m. Margaret le Moyne, liv. 1286.
4. Gilbert Pecche, of Great Bealings, Grundisburgh, and
Felsham, Suffolk, son and heir, minor in 1296, living 1313–1314.
3. Edmund Pecche. He or his son is probably the Edmund
Pecche who with a wife Margaret conveyed the manor and advowson of
Felsham, Suffolk in 1313–1314 to Hugh de Morieux and his son John.
3. Margery Pecche, d. c. 1313. She m. (1) bef. 25 Nov. 1271
Nicholas de Criol (or Crioll, Cryol, Cryell), Knt., of Eynsford,
Stockbury, Walmer, Westenhanger, &c., Kent, Cherry Hinton,
Cambridgeshire, Sarre, Kent, Croxton Kerrial, Leicestershire, Benhall,
Suffolk, etc., b. c. 1260, + 12 Oct. 1303. Margery may have m. (2)
abt. 20 June 1304 Ralph le Sauvage.
4. Nicholas de Criol, of Sarre and Walmer, Kent,
Constable of Dover Castle, Warden of the Cinque Ports, Admiral of the
Fleet west of the Thames, * 29 Dec. 1282, +1330, m. Rose _____. She
m. (2) John Bertram.
2. Ida de Hastings, +2 Mar. 1288/9, m. (1) Stephen de Segrave,
Knt., of Segrave, Leicestershire, + sh. bef. 16 Oct. 1241; (2) before
1247 Hugh Pecche, Knt., of Great Bealings, Grundisburgh, and
Kedington, Suffolk, + sh. bef. 16 Jan. 1292.
3 (by 1). Eleanor de Segrave, living 1298, m. before 1266
Robert Hovel, Knt., of Wyverstone, Chediston, Horpol, Istede, Market
Weston, Risby, and Weybread, Suffolk, d. before 22 Nov. 1286.1298.
4. Robert Hovel, of Wyverstone, Suffolk, b.in or before
1266 (of age by 1287), +before 1292.
4. Hugh Hovel, Knt., of Wyverstone, Baketon, Chediston,
Finningham, Market Weston, Westhorpe, and Weybread, Suffolk, minor in
1292, +before 1339. He m. (1) Joan ____; (2) Agnes _____, living
1346.
4. Stephen Hovel, Knt., of Wickham and Harpol, Suffolk,
living 1322, m. Mary _____, living 1305/1306.
4. Nicholas Hovel, liv. 1329-1330, m Joan _____, living
1329-1330.
3 (by 2). Eve Pecche, born about 1251 (aged 60 in 1311), d.
sh. bef. 24 Jan. 1311/12. She m. (1) Ralph de Rochester, Knt., of
Eriswell, Suffolk, m. (2) bef. 1280 Robert de Tudenham (or Tuddenham),
Knt., of Little Abington, Cambridgeshire, and Eriswell, Suffolk, d.
sh. bef. 17 April 1309.
4. Robert de Tudenham, of Eriswell, Great Bealings,
Grundisburgh, Kedington, etc., Suffolk, b. about 1279–1280 (aged 30 in
1309, aged 32 in 1312), d. about 1332.
5. Robert de Tudenham, d. about 1337.
4. Thomas de Tudenham.
5. Robert de Tudenham, Knt., of Eriswell, Great
Bealings, Grundisburgh, Kedington, etc., Suffolk, minor in 1337, d. 9
August 1361, m. Katherine de Pateshulle, b. about 1325, will pr. 16
June 1383.
3 (by 2). Hugh Pecche, of Great Bealings, Grundisburgh, and
Cotton Hall (in Kedington), Suffolk, b. about 1254 (aged 36 in 1292),
d. sh. bef. 4 Dec. 1310.
david11...@gmail.com
No source, no web link. We all know what that means.
"It means IGNORE.
DR "
I'll follow your advice
Douglas Richardson
>
> No source, no web link. We all know what that means.
>
> "It means IGNORE.
If I gave you my sources, you wouldn't know what to do with them. You
have much to learn, David. Your manners could also improve a lot.
genm...@gmail.com
Manners?? This is the pot calling the kettle black, especially since
the "offending" remarks were simply a quote from Richardson.
Richardson continues to show himself to be nothing more than a self-
obsessed, pompous hypocrite.
Jared & Christina Olar
draft, then of course you should ignore it. That's why I'm ignoring it at
this time.
Jared L. Olar
"It means IGNORE.
DR "
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Douglas Richardson
child.
I'm sure glad I'm not his school teacher. Even so, if he sticks
around me, he'll eventually learn something, if not some manners.
David: Here's your first lesson in manners. You need to learn to say
thank you and please. And start doing some research yourself.
genm...@gmail.com
More pomposity and more hypocrisy from the master of both. Thus the
Richardson "lesson" in manners....
What a jerk.....
david11...@gmail.com
Richardson asks the list to proof read and correct a pedigree
doubtless for his next book.
He quotes no sources despite telling numerous posters in the past that
no sources, no web links = ignore. Double standards/hypocricy
My post containing a cut and pasted Richardson message is described as
bad mannered. So Richardson's original post must have been equally bad
mannered. More double standards.
I've asked for nothing from the list, so need no pleases or thank
yous, nor do I want or expect anything handed to me for free.
Richardson was the one asking the group to do his research for him,
without a please in sight. Another Richardson ploy of old - when the
facts don't fit his attack, just invent them.
As my ability to read English is equally as good as Richardson's, and
as I can trawl through the internet and google books looking for
transcriptions of original documents as well as he can, I'm just as
capable of doing my own research, in lines that interest me, as he is.
Unfortunately neither of us knows anything about medieval latin, so
I'll learn nothing of Latin from Richardson (I'll consider helping
Richardson with his French translations though, being a resident of
France). What I can learn from Richardson is how to apply double
standards, how not to answer questions, how to drive genuine scholars
from the list, how to delete posts from this list when they contain
embarrassing errors to which I'd rather not admit, how to attack like
a cornered rat when challenged, and how to be a pompous patronising
prat.
Jared & Christina Olar
research for him. You took his request as an opportunity to pick a fight
instead of do genealogy. Your recent comments haven't contributed anything
helpful or useful to fellow Gen-Medeival participants.
Jared L. Olar
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of
david11...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:07 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Revised Hastings pedigree
david11...@gmail.com
wrote:
> He asked people to help him proofread what he had researched, not to do his
> research for him. You took his request as an opportunity to pick a fight
> instead of do genealogy. Your recent comments haven't contributed anything
> helpful or useful to fellow Gen-Medeival participants.
>
> Jared L. Olar
>
He asked " If anyone knows of any corrections or additions to this
material" .
Corrections - without sources it's difficult to spot if he has
committed a faux pas
Additions = do his research for him.
If asking Richardson to apply the same standards to himself as he
demands of others is picking a fight, then so be it. Killfile me.
Jared & Christina Olar
the future have something worthwhile to contribute. It's just a shame that
this time you went to the unneeded effort to contribute nothing of any
value.
Jared L. Olar
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of
david11...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:05 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Revised Hastings pedigree
On Dec 15, 2:18 pm, "Jared & Christina Olar" <ardgo...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> He asked people to help him proofread what he had researched, not to do
> his research for him. You took his request as an opportunity to pick a
> fight instead of do genealogy. Your recent comments haven't
> contributed anything helpful or useful to fellow Gen-Medieval
Douglas Richardson
> 4. Nicholas de Criol, of Sarre and Walmer, Kent,
> Constable of Dover Castle, Warden of the Cinque Ports, Admiral of the
> Fleet west of the Thames, * 29 Dec. 1282, +1330, m. Rose _____. She
> m. (2) John Bertram.
I have a new additiion for the revised Hastings Pedigree.
4. Nicholas de Criol, of Sarre and Walmer, Kent,
Constable of Dover Castle, Warden of the Cinque Ports, Admiral of the
Fleet west of the Thames, * 29 Dec. 1282, +1330, m. (1) about 25 May
1304 (date of marriage contract) Eleanor de Segrave, daughter of John
de Segrave, Knt., 2nd Lord Segrave, she died before 12 June 1307; m.
(2) before 1313-1314 Rose _____. She m. (2) John Bertram.
The above information also corrects the account of the family of
Ferrers of Groby in Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 344 (sub Ferrers)
which alleges that Sir William de Ferrers, 1st Lord Ferrers of Groby,
born 1272, died 1325, married Ellen, who is "said to be " the daughter
of John de Segrave, Knt., 2nd Lord Segrave. As we see above, Lord
Segrave's daughter, Eleanor, actually married Nicholas de Criol. As
such, Lord Ferrers must have married as his 1st wife Margaret or Alice
de Segrave, the two unattached sisters of Eleanor de Segrave. In
fact, Burke's Genealogical Hist. of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, &
Extinct Peerages (1866): 484–485 (sub Segrave, Barons Segrave)
identifies the wife of William, Lord Ferrers of Groby, as Margaret,
daughter of John de Segrave, 2nd Lord Segrave. This information may
be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1DEGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA485&dq=Margaret+Segrave+Ferrers
For evidence that Sir William de Ferrers' wife was a Segrave, see
Legge, Anglo-Norman Letters & Petitions (Anglo-Norman Text Soc. 3)
(1941): 78–79, for a letter dated 1399/1406 from Thomas la Warre, 5th
Lord Warre, to Thomas Arundel, Archbishop of Canterbury, which
mentions his “cousin” [mon tesentierment amé cousin], Henry le
Despenser, Bishop of Norwich. Bishop Despenser and Lord la Warre were
kin by way of their common descent from the Segrave family. Bishop
Despenser was a grandson of ?Margaret/?Alice (de Segrave) de Ferrers
above; Lord la Warre was a descendant of ?Margaret/?Alice de Segrave’s
aunt, Eleanor (de Segrave) la Zouche. Also, a seal for ?Margaret/?
Alice de Segrave’s daughter, Anne de Ferrers, widow of Edward le
Despenser, has survived which bears the ancestral arms of Ferrers,
Quincy, and Segrave (see Ellis, Cat. of Seals in the P.R.O. 1 (1978):
21).
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from William de Ferrers, Knt., 1st Lord
Ferrers, and his 1st wife, ?Margaret/?Alice de Segrave:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, William Bladen, George &
Nathaniel Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles &
Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode,
Jeremy Clarke, St.Leger Codd, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton,
Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry
Fleete, Edward Foliot, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Matthew
Kempe, Thomas Ligon, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas
Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas
Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Anthony Savage,
William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel
& William Torrey, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Amy Wyllys.
pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk
>Also, a seal for ?Margaret/?
>Alice de Segrave’s daughter, Anne de Ferrers, widow of Edward le
>Despenser, has survived which bears the ancestral arms of Ferrers,
>Quincy, and Segrave (see Ellis, Cat. of Seals in the P.R.O. 1 (1978):
>21).
I presume this refers to seal P242, of which there are four examples
at the PRO, one of them being illustrated on Plate 7 of Ellis's first
volume. The central shield has Despenser (quarterly, second and third
quarters fretty, over all a bend) impaling Ferrers of Groby (four [out
of seven] mascles). Anne's father was the first of the Ferrers to
bear these arms, which he presumably took from those of his
great-grandfather, Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester. The ancestral
arms of Ferrers (vairy or and gules) do not appear anywhere on the
seal.
Around the central shield are four roundels each containing heraldic
symbols: (i) a lion dormant, (ii) a lion rampant, (iii) a pierced
cinquefoil, and (iv) three chevrons. I presume that you are using the
lion rampant as your evidence for Segrave descent. The problems with
that are (a) dozens of families used a lion rampant as their arms, and
(b) on John de Segrave's seal dated 1301 (Birch 13396) and his wife
Christiane's seal dated 1280 (Birch 6712) the lion rampant is crowned.
Another problem is deciding which other ancestors are represented by
the other three symbols.
Peter G R Howarth
Douglas Richardson
seal is crowned. Is this wrong?
The pierced cinquefoil [QUINCY]. Presumably for Anne de Ferrers'
paternal grandmother.
The three chevrons [CLARE]. Presumably for Anne de Ferrers' mother-in-
law.
The lion rampant crowned [SEGRAVE]. Presumably for Anne de Ferrers'
mother.
The sleeping lion, I have no idea. I hadn't worked on that part of
the seal. Possibly lion couchant is intended.
pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk
The photo of the lion is rather too small to be sure, but even with a
magnifying glass I cannot make out a crown on the lion's head. In
addition, Ellis describes it simply as a lion rampant.
Cinquefoil: I do not have any direct evidence for Margaret de
Quincy's arms and have to presume that she used her father Roger's
(seven mascles). Her uncle, Robert, lord of Stiverton, bore gules, a
cinquefoil ermine or argent. He is however rather distant from Anne
Ferrers.
Other examples of a cinquefoil are Fawkes de Breauté, Walter de
Evermue, William Morton, Thomas de Martival, John Darcy, Raoul de
Sorel, Andrew de Astley, John Dangerville and Gilbert de Umfraville.
Three chevrons: I agree that Clare are the most obvious arms, but I
can't recall off-hand another example of a wife's seal referring to
her mother-in-law's arms. Usually she refers to her own family (apart
from impaling her husband's arms).
There are of course many other families that used three chevrons,
often in imitation of the Clares.
Sleeping lion: excluding anonymous ones, the only examples in the
Dictionary of British Arms of a lion either couchant or dormant, apart
from Anne Ferrers's seal, are:
1 14th c seal matrix "S' HENRICI CHAVCER" (lion not on a shield)
2 1323-4 John of Carliol
3 1322 Hugh & William Herring
4 1357 Richard de Nortone of Waddeworth, Yorks
Peter G R Howarth
Douglas Richardson
Cat. of Seals in the British Museum 2 (1892): 396]. However, I have
seen the seal of one of the Quincy men that used a cinquefoil, rather
than the mascles for Quincy. Anne de Ferrers' grandmother was co-
heiress to the Quincy and Beaumont families. Hence, it would be
appropriate for her to show the cinquefoil among her family's arms.
The Mascles for the arms of Ferrers of Groby were, of course, taken
from the Quincy arms.
As for rules of heraldry, they were still being formed in this
period. Hence,. Anne de Ferrers could have done what she wished on
her seal, including displaying the arms of her mother-in-law, a Clare
heiress, if she so desired.
DR
Douglas Richardson
Yes, the lion rampant on Anne (de Ferrers) le Despenser's seal is
crowned, as stated by Ellis. See the following weblink:
I didn't think my notes were wrong. I believe the lion rampant
crowned stands for Segrave.
Another indication that Anne (de Ferrers) le Despenser's mother was a
Segrave comes from the Ferrers windows found at Baddlesy Clinton:
Norris, Baddesley Cinton, its Manor, Church & Hall (1897): 63–64 (“The
windows at Baddesley are a treasure in themselves ... Therein may be
read, as in open volumes, the descent and the alliances of the house
of Ferrers ... Most of the shields were set up in the early part of
the seventeenth century, though a few bear date in the sixteenth … In
two large windows of the hall opening on the courtyard are twelve
shields of arms surmounted by earls’ and barons’ coronets, and having
inscriptions beneath indicating the alliances commemorated [including]
… 8. Ferrers of Groby impaling Segrave. Sable, a lion rampant,
argent, crowned or, langued and armed gules; [inscription:] “William
Ferrers the second lord Ferrers of Groby, married Elizabeth, daughter
of John, lord Segrave of Caledo’.”).
This material may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5wqDGpPvoBQC&pg=PA64&dq=Baddesley+Clinton+Ferrers+Segrave
In this instance, the name of William de Ferrers' wife is given as
Elizabeth de Segrave, not Ellen, Margaret, or Alice. This evidence
was ignored by Complete Peerage.
Douglas Richardson
Clinton." Ugh. Typos.
DR
pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk
It is more likely that the (unpierced) cinquefoil or pimpernel was a
canting device for Pernel of Grandmesnil rather than for the
Beaumonts. Her son Robert FitzPernel used a checky shield on his
counterseals (Birch 5674, Ellis P296). H S London, 'Glover's and
Walford's Rolls' p 145 mentions a seal of his with a cinquefoil on it,
but gives no source. Pernel's daughter Margaret had a seal c1207-18,
illustrated Alexander and Binski, Age of Chivalry (1987) No 141 where
her dress is charged with mascles, and there is a cinquefoil above her
head. Margaret's son Roger de Quincy, on the reverse of his
equestrian seal is shown standing with a sword and shield (bearing
mascles), fighting a lion. On the ground between them is a sexfoil.
But except in the case of Robert of Stiventon, the flowers are merely
decoration and never part of the coats of arms.
And none of this helps with determining whether Anne Ferrers's mother
was a Segrave.
Peter G R Howarth
Douglas Richardson
< And none of this helps with determining whether Anne Ferrers's
mother
< was a Segrave.
<
< Peter G R Howarth
Ah, but the rampant lion crowned does. Those are the arms of Segrave.
As for the arms of Beaumont being a pierced cinquefoil, see the
following weblink to Papworth:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uL7g4ps1Uj8C&pg=RA2-PA868&dq=Beaumont+pierced+cinquefoil
pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk
You are right about the Segrave connection. I misread Ellis and I
apologise.
However, one reason why work was started on the 'Dictionary of British
Arms' is that Papworth, or more accurately his sources, cannot be
trusted. And I do not see where you found "the ancestral arms of
Ferrers" on Anne Despenser's seal.
PGRH
Douglas Richardson
On Dec 16, 4:56 pm, pgrhowa...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
>
> You are right about the Segrave connection. I misread Ellis and I
> apologise.
Apology accepted.
> However, one reason why work was started on the 'Dictionary of British
> Arms' is that Papworth, or more accurately his sources, cannot be
> trusted.
I've used Papworth for years. While Papworth certainly has its
problems, I wouldn't term it untrustworthy. Dated perhaps.
In any case, are you disputing that Quincy/Ferrers bore masculy?
Are you disputing Clare bore three chevrons?
Are you disputing Segrave bore a lion rampant crowned?
Are you disputing that Beaumont bore a pierced cinquefoil?
If you are not, then raising an objection to Papworth has nothing to
do with the subject under discussion.
<And I do not see where you found "the ancestral arms of..
> Ferrers" on Anne Despenser's seal.
Um ...once again, Quincy/Fererrs, Segrave, Beaumont, Clare
The only arms I'm unable to identify on Anne de Ferrers' seal is the
sleeping lion, which is possibly intended for a lion couchant.
pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk
any background knowledge on Douglas Richardson's part.
Papworth (1874) has two relevant entries for the Beaumont cinquefoil:
Gu, a cinquefoil erm. Bossu, Busswe or
Bussu, co. Leicester. Beaumont, Leicester.
Robert Earl of Leicester, F. McDade, Scot-
land. St. Mary de Pratis Abbey, co.
Leicester. Newborough.
Gu. a cinquefoil pierced erm. Beaumont.
Fleming, W. Blanch Maynes. St. Mary
de Pratis Monastery, Leicester. Town of
Leicester. Robert Quency, B.
In the first entry, the only name that has a source is "Robert Earl of
Leicester, F." Looking at page 2, F is described as a Roll [of Arms]
circa 1262-92 in Harl. MS. 6137. Firstly, those dates, if correct,
look a little late for someone who died in 1204. Secondly, Harl. MS.
6137 is a collection of separate 16th- and 17th-century manuscripts
which in turn are copies, in trick [a quick sketch of a coat of arms
with the colours indicated by letters], of five earlier rolls of arms.
This means that, to be fair to Papworth, I must look at all five
rolls. I have used the modern names and sigla, with Brault's dates
for the original rolls, which puts all of them more than seventy years
after Robert's death:
(i) Dering Roll A (c.1280): There are no entries for either Beaumont
or Leicester (or any variants of them).
(ii) Camden Roll D (c.1280): There are no entries for either Beaumont
or Leicester (or any variants of them).
(iii) St George's Roll E (c. 1285): There is a Godfrai de beaumund
with 'sable, an orle of martlets or' (E 440) and the Cunte de
Leycestre with 'party per pale indented argent and gules' (E 19) [the
latter is taken from the banner of the Montforts].
(iv) Charles' Roll F (c.1285): There is a Godfrey de Beaumund (arms as
above) F 312, a William de Beumond with 'gyronny or and gules' F 134,
and the Cike de [in a different hand] Leicester (arms as above) F 63.
(v) Segar's Roll G (c.1285): There is no entry for Beaumont and 'Le
veyl escu de Leycestre' G 47 is as above. [The 'new' shield, of Simon
de Montfort, was 'gules, a lion rampant queue fourchy argent'.]
And just to be on the safe side, I checked the Matthew Paris Shields
(c.1244-59), Glover's Roll (c.1253-58) and Walford's Roll (c.1275).
There are no entries for either Beaumont or Leicester, although the
family is mentioned several times by the editors.
Papworth therefore did not have any contemporary evidence for his
entry on Robert Earl of Leicester. My guess is that he copied it from
Thomas Robson, 'The British Herald' (1830) or from Burke's 'General
Armory' (1847 edition or later).
I will deal with the second entry in my next post.
Peter G R Howarth
pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk
Gu. a cinquefoil pierced erm. Beaumont.
Fleming, W. Blanch Maynes. St. Mary
de Pratis Monastery, Leicester. Town of
Leicester. Robert Quency, B.
There is no source of any kind for the name Beaumont and I will deal
with that in a third post. For the Robert de Quency entry [he d.
1257] there is the source B, which is Nicolas's edition (1829) of
Glover's Roll (c.1253-58). We now use Hugh Stanford London's edition,
'Glover's and Walford's Rolls' in Sir Anthony Wagner (ed.), Aspilogia
II: Rolls of Arms Henry III, London: The Harleian Society, 1967
We need to understand that the original of Glover's Roll no longer
exists and we have to make do with two copies: (a) made Feb 1585/6 by
Robert Glover [hence the modern name of the roll], Somerset Herald,
with name, blazon [the technical description of heraldic matters] and
outline sketches, and (b) made by Robert Cooke, Clarenceaux 1567-93,
with names and tricked shields, but no blazon. There are some other
copies, but these two, (a) and (b), are the principal ones.
We must also understand that there are several occasions when one or
other of the copyists' tricks do not match the blazon, sometimes
through misunderstanding the old-fashioned language and sometimes by
using Tudor interpretations of the blazons. From these differences we
may assume that the original had only names and blazons. The editor,
H S London, only mentions those occasions when the tricks differ from
the blazon. If they agree, he says nothing.
Looking at his edition of Glover's Roll, the entry for Robert de
Quincy (B 153) reads:
"Robert Quency de gules od une quintefoill d'ermyne.
(a) and (b) A pierced cinquefoil."
H S London is pointing out that the two tricks disagree with the
blazon, which does not mention anything about piercing. Papworth was
therefore misled by an error in Nicolas's edition of Glover's Roll
into giving Robert a pierced cinquefoil.
I notice that, despite using London's edition of Glover's Roll,
Douglas Richardson in one of his books made the same mistake as
Papworth, perhaps because he did not bother to read the whole of H S
London's excellent work. And even after using Papworth for years, he
still feels it is trustworthy -- but dated!
I must point out that Papworth's system for his dictionary of coats of
arms, as adapted by Alfred Morant who completed the dictionary after
Papworth's death, remains the standard way of creating an Ordinary and
was the starting point for the system used in the Dictionary of
British Arms.
I will look at the arms and devices that the Beaumont family may have
used, but in a third post.
Peter G R Howarth
pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk
at what we do know about the Beaumont family's arms and devices.
There is an excellent article by Geoffrey H White, 'The Warenne group
of checkered shields' in CP xii (i). Appendix J. Following up an idea
originally suggested by J H Round, he looks at the descendants of
Isabel of Vermandois, daughter of Hugh de Crépi, C of Vermandois, in
order to show how many of them bore checkered shields as their coat of
arms.
He shows that her eldest son, Waleran, Count of Meulan and later Earl
of Worcester, by her first husband, Robert (I), Count of Meulan and
1st Earl of Leicester, had at least two different seals with a
checkered shield and saddle-cloth. The seal described in Birch 5666
has a checkered design on the lance flag and on the saddle. His
descendants bore 'checky or and gules'.
Waleran's twin brother, Robert (II) le Bossu, 2nd Earl of Leicester,
did not use an armorial seal. The shield on his seal of c.1147 (Birch
5669) has a purely conventional design on it. Robert (III) ès
Blanchemains, 3rd Earl, did not have an armorial seal either (see
Birch 5672 dated 1170-78). This is not altogether surprising, since
Richard I did not use three leopards on his Great Seal until 1194.
However, in 1195, although Robert (IV) FitzPernel's equestrian seal
(Birch 5674) may not have been armorial, the counterseal was a privy
seal with the legend ROBERTI DE BRETVEL and bore a checkered shield.
Ellis P296 describes a similar equestrian seal countersealed with
another privy seal with the legend ROBERTI DE BRETVIL and with the
same checkered shield. Unfortunately we do not have any indication of
the colours.
Geoffrey White's article goes on to describe how Isabel's descendants
by her second husband, William (II) de Warenne, Earl of Surrey, also
used checkered shields, in their case gold and blue. And through her
daughter Gundred she also had as descendants the Beaumont earls of
Warwick, who bore 'checky or and azure, a chevron ermine'.
So, although we do not know the colours used, we can be certain that
any arms used by the Beaumonts of Leicester were checkered.
I have already described how Robert FitzPernel's sister, Margaret de
Quincy, on her seal had mascles on her cloak and mascles on a separate
shield, with an unpierced cinquefoil placed above her head. Birch, at
6700, suggests that the cinquefoil is in allusion to the paternal arms
of Bellomont. He, in 1892, may have been misled by Papworth's book of
1874. As we have seen, there is certainly no contemporary evidence
for this claim. There is a good illustration of the seal in Alexander
and Binski, 'Age of Chivalry' (1987) No 141.
Her son, Roger, 2nd Earl of Winchester, used an equestrian seal (Ellis
P1916, c.1243) with mascles on his shield and horse-cloth; on the
reverse he is standing fighting a lion, again with mascles on his
shield. On the ground between them there is a wyvern and an unpierced
sexfoil.
Roger's younger brother, Robert, is the one who did use a cinquefoil
(unpierced) as his arms. But although Glover's Roll makes it ermine,
all the other rolls that mention him, Heralds' Roll (c.1279) HE 93,
Dering Roll (c.1280) A 218, and Camden Roll (c.1280) D 68, make the
cinquefoil silver.
The suggestion by H S London is that the cinquefoil is a canting
(punning) device, a pimpernel for Pernel of Grandmesnil, rather than
having anything to do directly with the Beaumonts.
That's it. I apologise again for the length of the posts.
Peter G R Howarth
Matt Tompkins
This has been interesting reading for someone living and working in
Leicestershire, where the county town's ancient arms are 'Gules, a
cinquefoil argent', and the county's buildings are liberally decorated
with white cinquefoils on red, because, as is common knowledge here,
these were the arms of the Beaumont earls of Leicester. Of course, as
G.H. White showed, the general belief is not quite correct - if the
earlier earls used any coat it was a checky one, and it was only the
last Beaumont earl, Robert FitzPernell, who changed the checky coat to
the cinquefoil one.
By coincidence just last week I read a chapter by David Crouch
entitled 'The historian, lineage and heraldry, 1050-1250' (in
Heraldry, Pageantry and Social Display in Medieval England, ed. by him
and Peter Coss, Woodbridge, 2002) in which he rehearses the use of
checky arms by the various descendants of count Hugh of Vermandois,
quoting White and others, and in particular says (p. 31) that 'before
1189 Robert de Breteuil, grandson of Waleran of Meulan's twin brother
the earl of Leicester, carried the checky design on his signet seal'.
However the accompanying chart (Fig. 2) shows two coats for Robert IV,
E. of Leicester, a checky one marked 'to 1189' and a cinquefoil marked
'to 1204'. There is no explanation of this, though later rolls do
attribute the cinquefoil to him (as you say), and I see from a very
old article in Trans. Leics Arch. and Hist. Soc. (i, 43) that a
cinquefoil is supposed to have appeared on his (now lost) seal when,
as earl of Leicester, he granted the city its charter.
Given that Robert FiztPernell used the cinquefoil coat, and that his
sister Margaret and brother Roger displayed cinquefoils on their seals
(albeit in subsidiary positions, not on the actual shield), it is easy
to see how subsequent generations might have thought (erroneously)
that the cinquefoil was associated with the Beaumont earls generally.
The burgesses of Leicester certainly thought it was.
Matt Tompkins
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
Given that the Beaumont family used both chequy and a cinquefoil as
arms, my guess is that the first set of arms came from the Beaumont
family itself and the second set of arms may have come from the
Grandmesnil family, whose lands they claimed. That's purely a guess,
though.
In any case, early barons frequently used more than one set of arms.
Saier de Quincy, 1st Earl of Winchester, for example, is known to have
used two different arms, although it is not fully understood why he
did. However, this was in the period before any real rules regarding
heraldry were set in place. So there was much more freedom in
selecting which arms one wished to use. Eventually the Quincy family
settled on the arms displaying the mascles. The mascles in turn were
later adopted by the Ferrers family of Groby, Leicestershire, as heir
of the Quincy family. And, the mascles appear on the seal of Anne de
Ferrers, wife of Edward le Despenser.
The early flexibility in arms often confuses genealogists who assume
that later rules of heraldry hold true for the earlier periods. One
enthusiastic poster on the newsgroup believed that marks of cadency
which we find in the later periods were in effect back in the 1300's.
They weren't.
pgrho...@tiscali.co.uk
Thank you for reminding me about David Crouch's article. He may be
the one who suggested that the lozengy arms of Angoulême were produced
by turning the checky arms of Meulan 45 degrees. I find the dates
that he gives in the table a little peculiar (checky only to 1189)
when the Birch seal is dated 1195. I must read the article again.
H S London, in his edition of Glover's Roll p 146, comments on Robert
de Quincy and his arms of 'gules, a cinquefoil ermine [or argent]':
"His mother was Margaret, dau. and coh. of Pernel, Countess of
Leicester (d.1212), and we may guess that the cinquefoil or pimpernel
was Pernel's canting device. It appears on Margaret's seal (Birch
6700) and on that of her brother Robert FitzPernel, Earl of Leicester,
who d.s.p. 1204 (CP vii. 535) and also on that of his brother Roger.
(Birch 6346, &c)"
The CP reference merely gives the date Robert died and says nothing
about any seal, which I have so far been unable to trace. I presumed
from the way H S London wrote his comments that Robert's cinquefoil
was just a decoration on his seal, like Margaret's and Roger's, and
that he did not use it as his arms.
Perhaps we should think of it as a badge that became better known than
the arms themselves, rather like the Stafford knot and the Warwick
bear and ragged staff.
Peter G R Howarth