Agnes of Aquitaine
wprokasy
Alfonso VI of Leon and Catile.
An Agnes apparently from Aquitaine, also born in 1052, married Ramiro I
of Aragon.
Is this second Agnes the same person as the first?
--
William F. (Bill) Prokasy
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Hello Bill,
Actually, your Agnes #1 is the aunt of Agnes #2:
Guillaume VI of Poitou = Hildegarde of
(VIII of Aquitaine) Burgundy
d. 25 Sept 1086 /
________________________/__________________
/ /
Guillaume VII = Philippa Alfonso VI = Agnes
(IX of Aquitaine) of Toulouse of Leon
d. Feb 1126/27
___________/_________________________
/ /
Guillaume VIII = Anor Agnes = Ramiro II
(X of Aquitaine) of Chatellerault Sanchez of
d. 1137 Aragon d.1137
Note, there were notable descendants of Agnes and Ramiro II of Aragon
(not to mention those of her niece, Eleanor of Aquitaine); there was no issue
of the marriage of Agnes #1 and Alfonso VI of Leon and Castile.
Hope this helps.
John
Marin-Guzman
the title or dignity - on 11th August 1137, and died on 16th August 1157.
P. Marin-Guzman
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Actually, your Agnes #1 is the aunt of Agnes #2:
>
> Guillaume VI of Poitou = Hildegarde of
> (VIII of Aquitaine) Burgundy
> d. 25 Sept 1086 /
> ________________________/__________________
> / /
> Guillaume VII = Philippa Alfonso VI = Agnes
> (IX of Aquitaine) of Toulouse of Leon
> d. Feb 1126/27
> ___________/_________________________
> / /
> Guillaume VIII = Anor Agnes = Ramiro II
> (X of Aquitaine) of Chatellerault Sanchez of
> d. 1137 Aragon d.1137
Agnes, daughter of Guillaume VI/VIII and Hildegarde married, not
Alfonso VI, but his first cousin, once removed, Pedro I Sanchez,
King of Aragon and Navarre, half-brother of Ramiro. The Agnes,
wife first (and first wife) of Alfonso VI, and second (as second
wife) of Helias, Count of Maine, is called daughter of Guy
Geoffrey (Guillaume VI/VIII) by a spanish chronicler, but
chronologically is unlikely to have been daughter by Hildegarde.
Most historians have concluded that she was daughter of Guillaume
by his second wife. (I have my own idea on it, but do not wish
to discuss it in the group at this time, as my speculation will
immediately show up in someone's database.)
taf
Stewart, Peter
> From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
> Sent: Monday, 9 July 2001 11:05
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Agnes of Aquitaine
>
>
I don't share this tender concern - any database that would adopt
acknowledged speculation from this newsgroup is no doubt already corrupt &
hardly worth worrying about. If we are inhibited from posting thoughts &
discussing the evidence for possibilities here, SMG will be much less
valuable & interesting than otherwise.
However, a database which indiscriminately takes up the dicta of Todd will
probably be a great deal more accurate than most. Perhaps it will be helpful
if I assume the privilege of irresponsibility - since no sensible person is
likely to copy my musings into a database - and post an account (from the
"usual suspect" sources) which Todd or others might feel able to criticise
ad lib:
Guillaume VI/VIII appears to have had two daughters named Agnes: the elder
was born to his second wife Mateoda (Mathilde, possibly of Thouars),
possibly before their marriage in November 1058 following the repudiation of
William's first wife Garsende of Perigord. This Agnes, who died ca 1078,
married in 1069 as his first wife Alfonso VI el Bravo, king of Castile (born
before June 1040, died at Toledo 30 June 1109). They had no children and
were divorced in 1077.
By his third wife Hildegarde (aka Audearde) of Burgundy (born ca 1050, died
after 1120) William VI/VIII was also father of a second Agnes, who died in
1097, This lady married at Jaca in 1086 (as his first wife) Pedro I, king of
Aragon & Navarre (born 1069, died Valle de Aran 27 September 1104). By him
she had a son Pedro (who married a daughter of el Cid and died in his
father's lifetime) and a daughter Isabel who also died young.
The maternity of William IX/VII the Troubadour's daughter Agnes, niece to
these women, is also questionable. This Agnes (aka Mathilde) died after
1147, having married first before 11 April 1106 Aimery V (or VI), viscount
of Thouars (killed in battle 1127, by whom she had four sons) and secondly
at Jaca in November/December 1135 Ramiro II el Monje, king of Aragon &
Navarre (born ca 1075, died at Huesca 16 August 1147), by whom she was
mother of his heiress Petronilla. Agnes was probably the daughter of William
the Troubadour's first wife Philippa (aka Mathilde) of Toulouse, although
for some unclear reason ES (neue Folge) has her as an illegitimate daughter
by the notorious Mauberge (aka Dangereuse) of l'Isle Bouchard, whose husband
was viscount of Chātellerault.
No wonder the chroniclers were sometimes confused by people running around
in a warm climate with so many aliases.
Peter Stewart
RMe...@aol.com
Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au writes:
<< No wonder the chroniclers were sometimes confused by people running around
in a warm climate with so many aliases.
Peter Stewart
>>
On the subject of aliases , something about the Dukes of Aquitaine has me
confused. Two brothers, I think William VII and VIII (but I might and
probably am wrong) are referred to as William (Pierre) VII and the other one
as William (Guido) VIII. Does anyone know why?
And also, do the Dukes of Aquitaine follow up the numbering from the original
Counts of Poitou because I have seen in some places that they have 2
different numbers, William V (III) is just an example.
Loyaulte Me Lie,
Rania
D. Spencer Hines
Poitou.
Consult the archives ---- or any standard source.
Todd A. Farmerie has made some excellent posts on this one.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Having taught in a university history department for more than 36 years
now, I would seek objectivity from anyone on the street before asking an
academic colleague in history." Norman Ravitch, Professor of History,
University of California, Riverside in _ The Wall Street Journal _ , 5
Nov 1998, p. A23.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor.
<RMe...@aol.com> wrote in message news:6e.cb8baa...@aol.com...
Stewart, Peter
> From: RMe...@aol.com [mailto:RMe...@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, 9 July 2001 15:04
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Agnes of Aquitaine
>
>
> Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au writes:
>
> << No wonder the chroniclers were sometimes confused by
> people running around in a warm climate with so many aliases.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> >>
> On the subject of aliases , something about the Dukes of
> Aquitaine has me confused. Two brothers, I think William VII
> and VIII (but I might and probably am wrong) are referred to
> as William (Pierre) VII and the other one as William (Guido)
> VIII. Does anyone know why?
> And also, do the Dukes of Aquitaine follow up the numbering
> from the original Counts of Poitou because I have seen in some
> places that they have 2 different numbers, William V (III) is just
> an example.
The numbering is complicated because there were two earlier Williams of
different lineage who were dukes of Aquitaine but not counts of Poitou -
these were:
William I the Pious, who was lay abbot of Saint-Julien de Brioude, count of
Rodez 892, count of Mācon 893, duke of Aquitaine, marquis of Gothia, count
of Auvergne, Berry, Limousin & Lyon, founder of Cluny 909 (died 28 June/6
July 918) who married before 898 Engelberga of Vienne (born ca 877, died as
a nun in Italy after 918), daughter of Boson, count of Vienne, king of
Provence (Transjuranian Burgundy) & Ermengarde of Francia.
and his nephew
William II, duke of Aquitaine & count of Auvergne 918, count of Mācon ca 926
(died 16 December 926/summer 927), son of Acfred I, count of Carcassone &
William I's sister Adelinda of Auvergne.
William was adopted as the regnal name of the counts in the later dynasty,
whose baptismal names were still remembered. Pierre became WilliamVII/V,
known as l'Aigret (born ca 1023, died 1058). His younger brother
Guy-Geoffrey reigned as William VIII/VI (born ca 1026, died at Chizé, Poitou
25 September 1086).
This practice is not all that unusual even in the 20th century - the present
queen's father, for instance, was named Albert as duke of York, but reigned
as George VI, to associate himself with a revered predecessor (only one
amongst the V previous Georges, but he still loomed large in popular memory
after the abdication crisis).
Peter Stewart
maria emma escobar
only notice of a marriage between Pedro, infante of
Aragón, and María, daughter of the Cid, come from
"The Primera Crónica General" with great jugglery
inspiration. The Crónica named the infante Sancho and
his name was Pedro. Their parents married in January
1.086 and he was born as soon in October 1086. He died
before his father, who died in 1.104
Ramón Berenguer was born in 11 november 1082 and must
marry María between 1096 and 1098, with 14-16. Their
daugther married Bernardo of Besalú in 1.107, at least
8 years old. Could María married near 1094 a 8 or 9
years old boy? . Yes, in theory she could, but I think
is a "tour de force" of dates.
=====
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