SOURCES

[binky]

Reference has been made in this newsgroup concerning Gary Boyd
Roberts' "The Royal Descents Of 600 Immigrants." Readers should
understand that this book IS NOT acceptable evidence on ANY lineage
society application form.

Why?

Because Roberts lumps all of his sources at the end of the line, and
doesn't give verbatim quotes from the sources so the reader can judge
for themeslves if the sources justify Roberts' assertions.

Here's an example:

On p. 337, Roberts gives a line from Edward I to James Cudworth, an
early settler of MA. The royal line passes through Mary Machell,
alleged to be Cudworth's mother. The current editions of Richardson's
books and AR8 don't have this line.

A number of sources are listed, and Roberts appends notes about these
sources. No lineage society will accept that. They will want to see
a quote from a source that proves Cudworth's mother was Mary Machell
and that her mother was Mary Lewknor.

There's another problem here: Roberts says that a forthcoming article
by Paul C. Reed will confirm, amplify, and document the descent. This
gives readers the impression that Paul C. Reed has endorsed the line.

But the Reed article has never appeared. I don't know what the
proposed article contains, or whether Reed actually succeeded in
proving this line.

That's not the point. The point is that "evidence" has been cited
which doesn't exist, and which neither the reader or an approving
genealogist of a lineage society can read for themselves.

Apparently Roberts and Richardson feel they've become the 'de facto'
arbiters of the validity of royal lines--I think Tony Hoskins also
thinks he is. Even though ALLl bastard descents which have not been
proven by scientific paternity testing questionable, even though it's
an absolute fact that men don't always know if a bastard child is
theirs, and the mothers don't always know who the father is, both of
these writers nonetheless list bastard lines in their books with no
caveat.

There's a world outside of"soc.genealogy.medieval," and these guys are
really the arbiters of nothing.

As a member of a well-respected lineage society myself, I can assure
the readers of this newsgroup that the approving genealogists of the
respective societies decide which candidates to admit. They haven't
turned over their duties to any of these people, so don't be
intimidated.

[mhol...@mac.com]

On Sep 8, 2:58 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Is it possible that the one who married Rev. Ralph Cudworth was really
> > Jane?  Does Cudworth's will from 1624 in fact even state the first
> > name of his wife?
>
> I downloaded the Ralph Cudworth will from TNA, and even though it is a
> short nuncupative will, it is helpful.
>
> It clearly mentions his wife "Mary Cudworth."
>
> One of the witnesses was a Margaret Wrothe, very possibly Margaret
> Rich, wife of Sir Thomas Wroth, and daughter of Richard Rich per this
> pedigree:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA132&dq=%22thomas+w...
>
> Apparently she was a sister of Sir Nathaniel Rich, which brings us
> back to the first pedigree I linked to:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=iuImjfpJDW8C&pg=PA95&dq=%22margaret+...
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA441&dq=%22john+mac...
>
> ... where the mother of Sir Nathaniel Rich was shown to be a Machell
> related to the other folks under discussion.  I suppose there would
> also be a connection through the Wroths.

I've read the Cudworth article by Paul C. Reed. The line is good.
You have to stop using secondary sources and visitations. Reed goes
for wills and other primary documents.

Martin

[Merilyn Pedrick]

Here are some notes I have regarding Mary Machell being the wife of Rev.
Ralph Cudworth and Rev. John Stoughton, the mother of James Cudworth and the
sister of John Machell. The sources all seem to confirm who she was.

Merilyn

MARY MACHELL, nurse to Prince Henry, eldest son of King James I of England.
She married (1st) before 1612 [rev.] RALPH CUDWORTH, D.D., Fellow of
Emmanuel College, Cambridge. They had three sons, [Major] James, Gent.,
Ralph, D.D. [Fellow of Emmanuel College, Master of Clare College, Master of
Christ�s College], and John, and three daughters, Elizabeth, Mary, and Jane.
He was born in 1572. He matriculated at Emmanuel College, Cambridge, Lent,
1588�9, where he obtained the following degrees: B.A., 1592�3, M.A., 1596, B
D., 1603, and D. D., 1619. He served as Curate of Westley Waterless,
Cambridgeshire c.1600, and was also a minister of St. Andrew�s, Cambridge.
He was instituted Vicar of Coggeshall, Essex in 1604. He was appointed
Rector of Aller, Somerset in 1609. [REV.] RALPH CUDWORTH, D.D. Was buried at
Aller, Somerset 30 Aug. 1624. He left a will dated 17 Aug. 1624, proved 29
Oct. 1624 (P.C.C. 116 Byrde). His widow, Mary, married (2nd) [rev.] JOHN
STOUGHTON, D.D., fellow of Emmanuel College, Cambridge, younger son of [Rev
] Thomas Stoughton, of Naughton, Suffolk and Coggeshall, Essex, by his 1st
wife, Katherine. He was baptized at Naughton, Suffolk 23 Jan. 1592/3. He was
admitted sizar of Emmanuel College, Cambridge in 1607, where he obtained the
following degrees: B.A., 1610�11, M.A., 1614, B.D., 1621, and D.D., 1626. He
was appointed Rector of Aller, Somerset 24 Aug. 1624. In 1632 he was
appointed curate of St. Mary, Aldermanbury, London. His wife, Mary, was
living in December 1634. He married (2nd) in 1635 JANE BROWNE, widow of [Rev
]Walter Newburgh (died 1632), of Symondsbury, Dorset, and daughter of John
Browne, Esq., of Frampton, Dorset. They had two daughters, Jane and Mary. He
was prosecuted in the high commission at the instigation of Archbishop Laud.
[REV.] JOHN STOUGHTON died 4 May 1639, and was buried 9 May 1639. He left a
will dated 4 May 1639, proved 20 May 1639 (P.C.C. 69 Harvey).

NEHGR 14 (1860): 101�104 (letter of James Cudworth dated 1634 addressed to
his �very Louinge & Kinde ffather Dr. Stoughton at his howse in
Aldermanbury�); 21 (1867): 249�250; 30 (1876): 464; 40 (1886): 306�307 (will
of John Stoughton, D.D.); 64 (1910): 85�86. Brook Lives of the Puritans 3
(1813): 527 (�Dr. John Stoughton, D.D. Was fellow of Emmanuel college,
Cambridge � He is classed among the learned writers and fellows of that
college, and is denominated a pious and learned divine.�). Chalmers General
Biographical Dictionary 11 (1813): 104�111 (biog. Of Ralph Cudworth: �[He]
was son of Dr. Ralph Cudworth, and born 1617, at Aller, Somerset, of which
place his father was rector. His mother was of the family of Machell, and
had been nurse to prince Henry, eldest son of James I. His father dying when
he was only seven years of age, and his mother marrying again, his education
was superintended by his father-in-law, Dr Stoughton�). Chauncy Hist. Antiqs
Of Hertfordshire 1 (1826): 77�78. Green Diary of John Rous (Camden Soc. 66)
(1856): 79�80 (sub 1635: �In October, Doctor Stoughton, of Aldermanbury, in
London, who married Cudworth�s widow, of Emm[anuel] and had the same living
given by the colledge in the West country, from when a carrier bringing some
monyes for his wives children�s portions, he was traduced (as it seemeth) to
be a favourer of New England, and a collector of contributions for those
ministers there, &c.�). Notes & Queries 2nd Ser. 7 (1859): 230. Notes &
Queries for Somerset & Dorset 7 (1901): 143�144. D.N.B. 5 (1908): 271�272
(biog. Of Ralph Cudworth). Weaver Somerset Incumbents (1889): 4. Holman
Scott Gen. (1919): 259�262. Venn & Venn Alumni Cantabrigiensis to 1751 1
(1922): 431 (sub Ralph Cudworth); 4(1) (1927): 171 (sub John Stoughton).
Calder & Cudworth Recs. Of the Cudworth Fam. (1974). Emerson Letters from
New England (1976): 138�139, 142�143. Spear Search for the Passengers of the
Mary & John 1630 18 (1992): 39�43; 26 (1997): 101�104 (sub Stoughton).
Parish Regs. Of Aller, Somerset [FHL 1517680]. Registered will of John
Machell, Gent., of Wonersh, Surrey dated 17 Oct. 1646, codicil dated 14 Jan.
1646/7, proved 16 July 1647, Prerogative Court of Canterbury, 163 Fines [FHL
Microfilm 92165]�brother of Mary Machell, wife of Ralph Cudworth; testator
bequeaths his cousin/kinswoman [i.e., niece], Jane Cudworth, �125 at her
marriage.

-------Original Message-------

From: binky

Date: 8/09/2009 11:30:16 PM

To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Subject: SOURCES

Reference has been made in this newsgroup concerning Gary Boyd

Roberts' "The Royal Descents Of 600 Immigrants." Readers should

Understand that this book IS NOT acceptable evidence on ANY lineage

Society application form.

Why?

Because Roberts lumps all of his sources at the end of the line, and

Doesn't give verbatim quotes from the sources so the reader can judge

For themeslves if the sources justify Roberts' assertions.

Here's an example:

On p. 337, Roberts gives a line from Edward I to James Cudworth, an

Early settler of MA. The royal line passes through Mary Machell,

Alleged to be Cudworth's mother. The current editions of Richardson's

Books and AR8 don't have this line.

A number of sources are listed, and Roberts appends notes about these

Sources. No lineage society will accept that. They will want to see

A quote from a source that proves Cudworth's mother was Mary Machell

And that her mother was Mary Lewknor.

There's another problem here: Roberts says that a forthcoming article

By Paul C. Reed will confirm, amplify, and document the descent. This

Gives readers the impression that Paul C. Reed has endorsed the line.

But the Reed article has never appeared. I don't know what the

Proposed article contains, or whether Reed actually succeeded in

Proving this line.

That's not the point. The point is that "evidence" has been cited

Which doesn't exist, and which neither the reader or an approving

Genealogist of a lineage society can read for themselves.

Apparently Roberts and Richardson feel they've become the 'de facto'

Arbiters of the validity of royal lines--I think Tony Hoskins also

Thinks he is. Even though ALLl bastard descents which have not been

Proven by scientific paternity testing questionable, even though it's

An absolute fact that men don't always know if a bastard child is

Theirs, and the mothers don't always know who the father is, both of

These writers nonetheless list bastard lines in their books with no

Caveat.

There's a world outside of"soc.genealogy.medieval," and these guys are

Really the arbiters of nothing.

As a member of a well-respected lineage society myself, I can assure

The readers of this newsgroup that the approving genealogists of the

Respective societies decide which candidates to admit. They haven't

Turned over their duties to any of these people, so don't be

Intimidated.

-------------------------------

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

.

[WJho...@aol.com]

I wrote up a few things about General James Cudworth here

http://knol.google.com/k/will-johnson/general-james-cudworth/4hmquk6fx4gu/30
9

Let me know if there is anything significant which I didn't mention in his
biography.

Will

[royala...@msn.com]

Will ~

I think the title "general" for James Cudworth is a misnomer. Early
in his life, he occurs in records as "Captain," and eventually was
made a "Major." That is clear from many contemporary records.

In 1675, late in his life, James Cudworth was chosen to take charge of
the Plymouth Colony military forces. The actual record is abstracted
and published in the well written biography of James Cudworth which
appears in Robert Charles Anderson's useful series, Great Migration:
Immigrants to New England 1634–1635 2 (2001): 249–258. The record
states that James Cudworth was chosen to be "general" of the Plymouth
Colony military forces. While most people would assume this office
made Cudworth a "general," I believe that the word "general" in this
record is a descriptive term, not an actual military title.

After noting the 1675 record, Anderson continues to style Cudworth as
"Major James Cudworth," never as "General James Cudworth." So I
assume Anderson does not believe that the 1675 action accorded
Cudworth the title of "general." Anderson is a careful genealogist
and is probably correct on that score.

In a related vein, an ancestor of mine, John Talcott, led military
forces in Connecticut in the same year. The highest rank he ever held
was "Lieutenant-Colonel," never "General."

Perhaps someone knowledgeable about military history can tell us when
the title "General" was actually first employed in New England
records. If the 1675 military action made James Cudworth a general,
I'd like to know about it.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Sep 11, 1:16 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> I wrote up a few things about General James Cudworth here
>

> http://knol.google.com/k/will-johnson/general-james-cudworth/4hmquk6f...

[royala...@msn.com]

On Sep 8, 5:19 pm, "Merilyn Pedrick"

<merilyn.pedr...@internode.on.net> wrote:
< Here are some notes I have regarding Mary Machell being the wife of
Rev.
< Ralph Cudworth and Rev. John Stoughton, the mother of James Cudworth
and the
< sister of John Machell.  The sources all seem to confirm who she
was.
<
< Merilyn

The Cudworth "notes" and "sources" that Merilyn posted today came from
me. This information is based on my research, a copy of which was
forwarded onto Merilyn who is a Cudworth descendant.

DR

[wjho...@aol.com]

As I point out, there's not as much conflict with her being a "Machell" as with her being a "Mary".? I didn't realize this in my first draft, but going over the sources again, I have yet to find the primary reference to her being "Mary".? John Brandon pointed this out earlier, and then seemed to back-track but I just want to point out again that we need a primary reference to her name as "Mary".

While it's true the Vis Essex 1634 doesn't list a Mary, it's not that surprising that you wouldn't remember the names of all your great-aunts properly, but it might be a little more surprising knowing that by this time, at least one of them had married a man of some little fame.? So I'm a bit conflicted on that point still.? I'm not ready to accept any secondary source calling her Mary without a clear attestation now.

Will Johnson

-----Original Message-----
From: royala...@msn.com
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Fri, Sep 11, 2009 1:28 pm
Subject: Re: SOURCES

On Sep 8, 5:19?pm, "Merilyn Pedrick"

<merilyn.pedr...@internode.on.net> wrote:
< Here are some notes I have regarding Mary Machell being the wife of
Rev.
< Ralph Cudworth and Rev. John Stoughton, the mother of James Cudworth
and the

< sister of John Machell. ?The sources all seem to confirm who she
was.
<
< Merilyn

The Cudworth "notes" and "sources" that Merilyn posted today came from
me. This information is based on my research, a copy of which was
forwarded onto Merilyn who is a Cudworth descendant.

DR

[royala...@msn.com]

On Sep 11, 3:45 pm, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
<  As I point out, there's not as much conflict with her being a
"Machell" as with her being a "Mary".? I didn't realize this in my
first draft, but going over the sources again, I have yet <to find the
primary reference to her being "Mary".? John Brandon pointed this out
earlier, and then seemed to back-track but I just want to point out
again that we need a primary <reference to her name as "Mary".

> Will Johnson

James Cudworth's mother is named Mary in the will of her husband,
Ralph Cudworth, D.D., of Aller, Somerset dated 17 Aug. 1624, proved 29
Oct. 1624 (P.C.C. 116 Byrde). An abstract of the will of Ralph
Cudworth prepared by me was published in Burton Spear, Search for the
Passengers of the Mary & John 1630, 18 (1992): 39–43.

Mary Cudworth's maiden name, Machell, is found in an old biography of
her son, Ralph Cudworth the younger, first published in the 1700's in
England. The author who published this information apparently relied
on the antiquarian, Thomas Baker, for details of Ralph Cudworth's
life.

The baptisms of all six of Mary and Ralph Cudworth's children are
recorded in the parish registers of Aller, Somerset, including that of
their youngest child, Jane Cudworth, who was called
"cousin"/"kinswoman" in the will of Mary (Machell) Cudworth's brother,
John Machell, Gent., of Wonersh, Surrey, which will is dated 17 Oct.

1646, codicil dated 14 Jan. 1646/7, proved 16 July 1647, Prerogative

Court of Canterbury, 163 Fines [FHL Microfilm 92165]. John Machell
bequeathed Jane Cudworth £125 at her marriage, which was a
considerable sum of money. Although he does not say so, I presume he
was merely holding the money for her as her guardian as her
inheritance from her parents' estate.

[wjhonson]

On Sep 11, 3:31 pm, royalances...@msn.com wrote:
>
> The baptisms of all six of Mary and Ralph Cudworth's children are
> recorded in the parish registers of Aller, Somerset, including that of

Do you have a source for where this is published?
I cannot find it in the extracted IGI.

Will

[royala...@msn.com]

On Sep 11, 5:53 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

< Do you have a source for where this is published?
< I cannot find it in the extracted IGI.
<
< Will

Parish Registers of Aller, Somerset [FHL Microfilm 1517680]. The IGI
only has abstracts of the Bishop's Transcripts..

[wjho...@aol.com]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.
Are you saying that the IGI has the transcripts of these baptisms?? If so, do you have the Batch number ?? Or are you saying that the Bishops Transcripts do not include Aller?

-----Original Message-----
From: royala...@msn.com
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Fri, Sep 11, 2009 5:28 pm
Subject: Re: SOURCES

[royala...@msn.com]

On Sep 11, 6:38 pm, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
< I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.
< Are you saying that the IGI has the transcripts of these baptisms??
If so, do you have the Batch number ?? Or are you saying that the
Bishops Transcripts do not include Aller?

Will ~

What I'm saying is that the Aller, Somerset parish registers have the
baptismal records of all six children of Ralph and Mary Cudworth. The
Aller parish registers are available on FHL Microfilm 1517680.

The IGI, on the other hand, only has extracts of the Bishop's
Transcripts of Aller, Somerset. They are available on FHL Microfilm
1278895 Items 8 - 9.

The Bishop's Transcripts only cover these years: Baptisms, 1598-1599,
1602-1603, 1605-1607, 1609-1612, 1617, 1621, 1629, 1636-1637, etc.

[wjho...@aol.com]

The IGI is not searchable in this fashion.
I can locate the item in the card catalog, however to search the IGI you need a Batch number, not a film number.?

-----Original Message-----
From: royala...@msn.com
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Fri, Sep 11, 2009 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: SOURCES

Will ~

[Renia]

wjho...@aol.com wrote:
> The IGI is not searchable in this fashion.
> I can locate the item in the card catalog, however to search the IGI you need a Batch number, not a film number.?

The FHL have microfilmed many Parish Registers but not all of them are
available through the IGI.

The Bishop's Transcripts are Batch Numer P019541 on the IGI, in amongst
other stuff.

Only 2 Cudworths:

1. RALPH CUDWORTH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 13 JUL 1617 Aller, Somerset, England
2. CUDWORTH - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 02 AUG 1612 Aller, Somerset, England

[wjho...@aol.com]

Thanks Renia, shortly I'll put up that data on my James Cudworth page.

-----Original Message-----
From: Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Only 2 Cudworths:

[w]

On Sep 11, 7:53 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Do you have a source for where this is published?
> I cannot find it in the extracted IGI

I cannot find any sources for the false info I put on my web pages
about

BILL/ WILLIAM ARNOLD by WILY COYOTE/WILL JOHNSON/JAIME/JAS HOGG

As a service to my web pages, here is one real genealogist I learned
so much from,

can anyone straighten out the mess I made about Bill Arnold's
father, who I know did not live in Indiana?

http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/William_Arnold

Further reading
• A posting by Bill on Shaksper.net where he speaks about
his book
• A posting by Bill about his theories about Sunspot
cycles

Bill Arnold's "ARNOLD'S LAW aka BODE'S LAW EXPLAINED" originally
published in 1979 by *Cycles* magazine is stored on this forum and is
viewable as a .pdf file. Click on it to view and/or print your
personal copy, offered in the interest of scholarship. Also, clickable
in the sig file of Bill Arnold [see below or above].

ARNOLD'S SPECIAL THEORY OF ORDER

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SunspotWeatherPlanetaryCycles/message/189

Bill Arnold's "On The Special Theory Of Order: Sunspot, Weather and
Planetary Synodic Cycles" originally published in 1985 by *Cycles*
magazine is stored on this forum and is viewable as a .pdf file. Click
on it to view and/or print your personal copy, offered in the interest
of scholarship. Also, clickable in the sig file of Bill Arnold [see
below or above].
It is searchable through any search engine, including Google.

Mathematics of Bode's/Arnold's Law, spacing of planets around the sun.
Read Bode's Law Explained:
http://cyclesresearchinstitute.org/astronomy/arnoldbode.pdf

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SunspotWeatherPlanetaryCycles/message/188

Special Theory of Order: mechanism of our Solar Planetary System:
http://www.cyclesresearchinstitute.org/astronomy/arnold_theory_order.pdf

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SunspotWeatherPlanetaryCycles/message/189

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cyclesi/message/3860

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SunspotWeatherPlanetaryCycles/message/193

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SunspotWeatherPlanetaryCycles/message/188

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SunspotWeatherPlanetaryCycles/message/190

Will Johnson aka Wily Coyote
Willie aka Will
best bud of Leo

[w]

On Sep 11, 9:42 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:

You know, Renia, I have challenged you in the past for not being a
genealogist
and yet here you out do me and find stuff I could never find on my
own,
so I guess I ain't much of a professional, after all, and Santa Cruz
Ca
ought to stop sending out all the Jaime Hogg and Sjostrom support of
Leo V P

me Will Johnson, Professional Genealogist, Biographer and Historian
aka Wily Coyote

Welcome to CountyHistorian.com

http://www.countyhistorian.com/

The CountyHistorian website was established February 2007 by me Will
Johnson, Professional Genealogist, Biographer and Historian. I've been
doing genealogy as a hobby for 30 years, and professionally for the
last six. Although I started this business doing genealogy, I found
that it's the process of documenting that I enjoy. This naturally led
to pursuing articles that weren't strictly about a person's family
tree. I've writen several biographical articles without really finding
out much about the person's ancestors. Also I've writen histories of
companies and organizations. I may be reached at wjho...@aol.com

Sources A list of my favorite genealogical investigation tools
Current events Some articles I've been working on
All Pages The full index of All Pages
Popular Pages List of the most Popular Pages in Order of
Popularity].
Make links Amazon links

My motto/promise:

I DOCUMENT
OTHERS VENT
TOO BAD, SO SAD,
YOUR WILY DAD
JAIME HOGG

[D H S]

On Sep 11, 3:16 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> I wrote up a few things about General James Cudworth here
>

> http://knol.google.com/k/will-johnson/general-james-cudworth/4hmquk6f...

> 9
>
> Let me know if there is anything significant which I didn't mention in his
> biography.
>
> Will

OFF TOPIC