Doug Thompson's Braose Website
Douglas Richardson
I just visited Doug Thompson's Braose website. The site is
interesting, informative and jam packed with wonderful graphics. Doug
has done a marvelous job.
The site is divided into two sections, history and genealogy. The web
address for the genealogical section is:
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/index1.htm
In the genealogy section, I checked under Eleanor de Braose, wife of
Humphrey de Bohun, and saw that Doug had added her new daughter,
Margery de Bohun, wife of Theobald de Verdun. So this website is
current and up-to-date.
If you have a few spare moments, I recommend you visit both sections
of the website.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
leo van de pas
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/index1.htm
I too have visited this site and like it very much. However, there are some
questions I would like to ask about the genealogy. Here is the first one :
William de Braose, 1st Lord of Bramber. Recorded that he most likely died
between 1093 and 1096. His wife could be Eve de Boissey, widow of Anchetil
de Harcourt.
Turton, page 78, gives him Agnes de St.Clair, daughter of Valeran de
St.Clair, as wife.
Marlyn Lewis, in "The Ancestry of Elizabeth of York", volume 1, page 548,
also records Agnes de St.Clair as wife, as well as a few other details.
21312.William de Braose, born about 1049 at Brienze (sic, typing error?),
Normandy. died after 1089 at Bramber, Sussex, England, mother Gunnora of
Bavent and Rouvres.
21313.Agnes de St.Clair, born at Barnstaple, Devonshire, father Waldren de
St.Clare (sic).
Georges Martin, "Histoire et Genealogie de la Maison de Harcourt", 1974,
page 58. Anchetil, seigneur d'Harcourt, fut le premier a en porter le nom.
Il epousa Eve de Boissey. On ne connait pas la date de son deces; il vivait
encore en 1027. Their two sons, Errand and Robert, accompany William the
Conqueror in 1066 to England.
If William de Braose was born about 1049, he was about 17 when he came to
England with William the Conqueror.
To me it seems unlikely that he then married Eve de Boissey
who, in 1066, already had at least two mature sons, mature enough to go to
war. Eve de Boissey has the following children, Errand, Robert, Jean,
Arnoul, Gervais, Yves, Renaud and Agnes
ES Volume X Tafel 123. Anchetil, Sire d'Harcourt, has a sister, Lasceline,
who dies in 1058 as widow of Guillaume I batard de Normandie, Comte de
Hiemois et d'Eu, he died shortly before 1040. This latter couple are the
same generation as Eve de Boissey. Eve's brother-in-law dies before 1040 but
Eve is supposed to marry someone born about 1049 and have a child by him? ES
gives Eve the following children, Errand (died after 1078) Robert I (died
after 1100) Jean, Arnoul, Gervais, Yves, Renaud and Agnes.
Doug Thompson gives According to L.C.Perfect, a 13th century genealogy in
the Bibliotheque de Paris gives the name of his wife as Eve de Boissey,
widow of Anchetil de Harcourt. There is a lot of evidence from contemporary
charters which supports this view.
Marlyn Lewis gives that William de Braose has a daughter (unnamed) who
married a Robert de Harcourt, so it seems there was some kind of a link. ES
X 123, gives Eve de Boissey's son Robert as wife Colette d'Argouges. And as
Eve's husband was supposed to be the first one to use the name d'Harcourt,
their son Robert may well have been the only one around, and we can only
wonder where the remark by Marlyn Lewis came from.
Marlyn Lewis gives as source "Some Early English Pedigrees, by Vernon M.
Norr, page 34. I have no access to this source.
To be continued.
Leo van de Pas
Doug Thompson
> http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/index1.htm
>
> I too have visited this site and like it very much. However, there are some
> questions I would like to ask about the genealogy. Here is the first one :
>
................ gives him Agnes de St.Clair, daughter of Valeran de
> St.Clair, as wife.
Lots do! They all seem to follow from an (unsourced) statement in
Bridges version of Collins Peerage in the 19th century. There is no
evidence for this purported marriage at all.
> If William de Braose was born about 1049,
IF! There is no evidence for this either! The conclusions drawn from
this lose their relevance.
(My feeling, based on no real evidence is that he was born about 1030)
> This latter couple are the same generation as Eve de Boissey.
"Generations" may span about 30 years remember.
> ES X 123
> This page starts with Turchetil, Seigneur de Tourville etc.
> likely born in 960 died after 1024. He is the father of three
> children, Anchetil, Wauthier and Lesceline. In all likelyhood his children
> were born between 980 and 990.
I find this statement extraordinary! Men of this age often started
their families late. And there is only a "likely" date for Turchetil
anyway!
Start the other end. Philip de Harcourt is recorded to have died in
1163. He was nearly elected bishop of Salisbury in 1140. He was dean
of Lincoln in 1125. So he was probably born after 1080 . His father,
Robert of Harcourt would typically have been about 30 years older so
this puts his birth date at 1050 ish . A half brother born "circa"
1070 doesn't look so bad. (Philip may have been born earlier.)
Don't forget that "his brother, Robert, son of Anketil," is
representing Philip in 1103. This is not likely for someone that you
are suggesting was born near 1014!
I still only put the marriage down as a "probable" but it feels a lot
more probable than your post might lead one to believe.
Regards
Doug Thompson