De Tregoz
John Watson
>From all of the published pedigrees of the de Tregoz family, that I can
find, John de Tregoz married Mabel FitzWarin and died in 1300, leaving
two daughters as heirs: Clarice, married to Sir Roger la Warre and
Sibyl, married to Sir William de Grandison.
Therefore, I'm at a bit of a loss in how to explain the following
entries in the Calendar of Patent Rolls:
7 Nov 1288 : Licence, for a fine of 10l., for Mabel late the wife of
John Tregoz, tenant in chief, to marry whomsoever she will of the
king's allegiance. [CPR, Edward 1, Vol 2, p 302]
28 Feb 1301: Grant to John la Warre, king's yeoman, of a moiety of the
forfeiture due to the king by Joan, late the wife of John Tregoz,
tenant in chief, for marrying without licence. [CPR, Edward 1, Vol 3, p
577]
8 Jun 1307: Pardon to Laurence de Hamelden, for taking to wife Joan,
late the wife of John Tregoz, tenant in chief. [CPR, Edward 1, Vol 4, p
527]
Either John de Tregoz divorced Mabel and re-married Joan, or the John
de Tregoz married to Joan and who died in 1300 was actually the son of
the first John de Tregoz who had died before November 1288.
Has anyone got any suggestions as to which of these possible
interpretations may be correct.
Regards,
John Watson
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/5/2006 6:06:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Watso...@gmail.com writes:
7 Nov 1288 : Licence, for a fine of 10l., for Mabel late the wife of
John Tregoz, tenant in chief, to marry whomsoever she will of the
king's allegiance. [CPR, Edward 1, Vol 2, p 302]
28 Feb 1301: Grant to John la Warre, king's yeoman, of a moiety of the
forfeiture due to the king by Joan, late the wife of John Tregoz,
tenant in chief, for marrying without licence. [CPR, Edward 1, Vol 3, p
577]
8 Jun 1307: Pardon to Laurence de Hamelden, for taking to wife Joan,
late the wife of John Tregoz, tenant in chief. [CPR, Edward 1, Vol 4, p
527]
Either John de Tregoz divorced Mabel and re-married Joan, or the John
de Tregoz married to Joan and who died in 1300 was actually the son of
the first John de Tregoz who had died before November 1288.
The two John's were not the same person. I think that much should be read.
Whether one was the son of the other is not clear from the above however.
Will Johnson
John Watson
Hi Will,
On further looking around on Google books, I found the IPM for
Wiltshire for the John Tregoz who died in 1300 and who seems pretty
conclusively to be the father of Clarice and Sybil.
Wiltshire Inquisition Post Mortem of John de Tregoz, made before the
escheator, 25th October, 28 Edward I [1300], of the lands and tenements
which were of John Tregoz in co. Wilts on the day that he died. States,
"John la Warre, son and heir of Clarice la Warre, first-born daughter
of the said John Tregoz, who is dead, and Sibill de Graunteson, second
daughter of the said John Tregoz, are the next heirs of the said John
Tregoz : the said John la Warre is aged 24 years, and the said Sibill
30 years and more." Chan. Inq.p.m., 28 Edward I, No. 43. [Abstracts of
Wiltshire Inquisitiones Post Mortem, 1242 - 1326, British Record
Society, London 1908, pp 254-5]
So I'm still puzzled about that "Mabel late the wife of John Tregoz" in
1288. Must be a different Mabel and John - however unlikely that
seems.
Regards,
John
mhol...@mac.com
Fitzwarin. He has two daugters say 1289-1291. That leaves 9-10 years
for his first wife to die and he to remarry a woman named Joan and them
himself die in 1300. So, why jump to divorce? And why would WIll
Johnson need to add his two cents that the two men were different?
Unless you have a document that says Mabel was alive past her husband,
I'm not sure I see a research problem.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/6/2006 9:31:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mhol...@mac.com writes:
I don't understand the problem. John Tregoz married about 1288 Mabel
Fitzwarin. He has two daugters say 1289-1291. That leaves 9-10 years
for his first wife to die
Except you seem to fail to notice that Mabel is being given license to MARRY
whomever she wants after her marriage to John now dead obviously.
Will Johnson
mhol...@mac.com
getting a license although she was already married. The language reads
as Mabel, late[ly] the wife of John Tregoz. Meaning that she "of late"
got married without a license. Nowhere does it say that John Tregoz is
the late John Tregoz. His IPM is in 1300. So, again, what's the
problem?
WJho...@aol.com
mhol...@mac.com writes:
<< In 1288, Mabel was fined for not
getting a license although she was already married. The language reads
as Mabel, late[ly] the wife of John Tregoz. >>
So we're to understand "whomsoever she will" to mean "make sure you only
marry John Tregoz" ?
mhol...@mac.com
The IPM for both John and Mabel appear in Vol. III of the Calendar of
Inquisitions for Edward I (1912).
#412, p. 274
Mabel, late the wife of John Tregoz.
Writ, 24 May, 25 Edw. I
Inq. Wednesday after St. Barnabus, 25 Edw. I
for Bedfordshire. Weston (the manor) was held by Maud, daughter of an
dheir of William de Averenchis the elder. Hamo le Creveker married her
and they gave the manor to William their son and heir in free marriage
with the said Mabel. This William died without heir of his body so
that the said Mabel held the manor for life according to the form of
the gift aforesaid.
The claimant is John de Lenham, son of Iseult the second of the
daughters of the said Hamo and Maud aged 30 and more. The last line
notes that the manor should revert to him since the death of said
Mabel.
Endorsed: A day is given to John Tregoz and Richard de Weylaund and
other parceners.
So thus Mabel was dead by 24 May 1397 and John was still alive.
His IPM is #603, pp. 453-6, never mentions a wife named Joan. The writ
is dated 6 Sept. 28 Edward I. All the writs take place in the fall of
that year into the early part of 29 Edw. I (post December).
In the Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. 1 1272-1307, p. 386:
24 May 1297 Portsmouth: Order to the escheator on this side Trent to
take into the king's hand the lands late of Mabel late the wife of John
Tregoz, deceased, tenant in chief.
p. 253 is the fine in question, note the commas:
7 November 1288: Grant, for a fine of 10l., to Mabel, late the wife of
John Tregoz, tenant in chief, that she may marry whomsoever she will
int he king's fealty.
p. 432: 6 September 1300: Order to the escheator beyond Trent to take
into the king's hand the lands late of John Tregoz, deceased, tenant in
chief.
p. 435: 26 November 1300: Order to the same to make partition of the
lands late of John Tregoz, tenant in chief, into two equal parts and to
deliver to John la Ware, kinsman and one of the heirs of John Tregoz,
to wit, son of Clarice his first-born daughter, and to William de
Grandison and Sibyl his wife, younger daughter and the other heir of
John Tregoz, their pourparties of the said lands, except the body of
the castle of Ewyas Harold which the king has assigned to John as
senior heir for the capital messuage of the said inheritance, so that
he assign to William and Sibyl 60s. of land agreed upon between him and
them before the king's council at York, and saving to Joan, late the
wife of John Tregoz, her dower; the said John la Ware and William
having done homage.
p. 449: 9 Feb. 1302: Order to the escheator beyond Trent to restore the
goods of Laurence de Hamelden and Joan his wife, late the wife of John
Tregoz, tenant in chief, which he took into the king's hand on account
of their trespass in intermarrying without license, the king having
pardoned Joan for a fine made by Laurence.
Get it now?
John Watson
The only fly in this ointment is that the IPM for Mabel is headed
"Mabel, late the wife of John Tregoz." meaning that he was already
dead.
Regards,
John
mhol...@mac.com
wife of the late John Tregoz or Mabel, the wife of John Tregoz, late .
. . .
John Watson
facts:
(a) Mabel, widow of William Crevequer, marries John Tregoz who is the
younger brother of Robert Tregoz. He dies in or before 1288. There is
no IPM because he holds nothing in chief. They have no children. She
dies in 1297.
(b) John Tregoz, the son of Robert Tregoz, marries someone, perhaps
Joan, and has two daughters, Clarice born about 1255 and Sibyl, born
about 1270. He dies in 1300. His widow Joan later marries Laurence de
Hamelden.
Regards,
John
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< I don't understand the problem. John Tregoz married about 1288 Mabel
Fitzwarin. He has two daugters say 1289-1291. >>
Clarice and Sibyl were much older than that.
mhol...@mac.com
did not understand your initial post and you didn't cite any sources
or analysis, so it was not easy to understand.
The Tregoz family of Ewyas falls outside of the two major royal
compilations by Doug Richardson since they were not Plantagenet nor
Magna Carta descendants. They do appear in Ancestral Roots (AR), 8th
edition, 2004, Line 255A, which was researched by, coincidentally by
Doug Richardson. He gives the line as:
1. Robert II de Tregoz m. Juliane de Cantelou
2. Sir John de Tregoz m. Mabel Fitz Warin, widow of William le
Crevequer
3. Clarice de Tregoz m. Sir Roger la Warre, 1st Baron La Warre.
3. Sibyl de Tregoz m. William de Grandison
This we can call the "standard" line. He exclusively cites to the
Complete Peerage (CP) IV:139-143 for generations 2 and 3. For
generation 1 he also cites CP XII (2):20-22. He also notes Sussex
Archaelogical Collections 93 (1955):34-56 for generation 1 only.
Another source, although not much cited, is Carl Boyer's Medieval
English Ancestors of Certain Americans (2001), pp. 245-6. Boyer gives
the standard line as well and cites to the same sources as Richardson.
However, the article in question, Tregoz by L.F. Salzman, F.S.A., in
Sussex Arch. Collection 93:34-56 gives the line as:
1. Robert II de Tregoz m. Gillian (i.e. Juliane) de Cantelupe
2. John de Tregoz m. Joan, dau. of Adam de Cokefeld m. 2nd Laurence de
Hameldene
3. John de Tregoz m. Mabel widow of William de Crevequer, brother to
Clarice and Sibyl, noted above.
This is your theory. Sadly, neither Richardson, nor Boyer give
analysis on why they choose their theory over yours. CP XII (2):17-22
also gives the standard line. CP also cites to Salzman's article.
So we have disparate theories with no analysis. Perhaps Doug can give
us some guidance on his thinking.
Using just chronological basics, CP says that Joan who married John
Tregoz, married 2nd. Laurence de Hamelden who was living in 1307.
Afterwards she married before 1313-4, William de Beauchamp and
predeceased him (he d. 7 Apr 1354). She must have been somewhat young
to marry John Tregoz in 1298 and get married twice more.
John La Warre married shortly before November 1294. If 18, he was born
c. 1276. So his parents were married c. 1275 and Clarice was born say
1258. AR line 255A notes that William le Crevequer died in 1263 (which
totally cramps the timeline). Perhaps he was known to be dead by then.
In any case. If Clarice is born in 1258, then John and Joan were
married in 1257 and she is born in 1240. So we must believe that she
married secondly at 61 in 1301 and again c. 1312 at 72, possibly living
to 90-100. A stretch. If one could prove that Joan had children with
either Laurence or William, then she couldn't possibly also be the
mother of Clarice and Sibyl.
So wisdom anyone can impart would be greatly appreciated.
On Nov 6, 6:25 pm, "John Watson" <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok - so here's a different hypothesis, which fits most of of the known
> facts:
>
> (a) Mabel, widow of William Crevequer, marries John Tregoz who is the
> younger brother of Robert Tregoz. He dies in or before 1288. There is
> no IPM because he holds nothing in chief. They have no children. She
> dies in 1297.
>
> (b) John Tregoz, the son of Robert Tregoz, marries someone, perhaps
> Joan, and has two daughters, Clarice born about 1255 and Sibyl, born
> about 1270. He dies in 1300. His widow Joan later marries Laurence de
> Hamelden.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
John P. Ravilious
Dear Martin, Will, John, et al.,
I believe you will find the 'standard' descent is the correct one.
This is based on two pieces of evidence: the tenure of Lambourn, co.
Berks., and the inheritance by Mabel Fitz Warin of of Iden and Isham,
Sussex.
1. For the first, an extended look at the transmission of Lambourn
over 5 generations, esp. from Fulk Fitz Warin to his daughter
Mabel and from Mabel via her daughter Sybil de Tregoz to the
Grandison family, see the pedigree below.
2. As to the second, Doug Richardson wrote a while back (in part):
' For evidence that Mabel Fitz Warin was heiress of her mother,
Clarice de Auberville, I find that Mabel and her husband, Sir
John Tregoz, were granted free warren of Iden and I[s]ham,
Sussex 11 June 1271. ' [1]
Doug noted that Iden and Isham were subsequently inherited
by Sibyl de Tregoz.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Douglas Richardson, <C. P. Addition: Clarice de Auberville,
wife of Sir Fulk Fitz Warin>, SGM, 9 Dec 2005, cites Moor,
Knights of Edward I 5 (H.S.P. 84) (1932), also National Archives
documents SC 8/11/550A and SC 8/11/550B.
===================================================
1 Josce de Dinan[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1167[2]
Father: Oliver de Dinan (->1172)
of Lambourn, Berks., Corton Dinham, Somerset, Kilmeston, Hants.,
Stanton [Stanton Fitzwarren] and Broad Blunsdon, Wilts. and Hartland
and Buckland, Devon[2]
a supporter of Matilda and then Henry II:
dispossessed of his castle at Ludlow;
received the manor of Lambourn, co. Berks from Henry II in compensation
before 1156 [Meisel[2]; DD 434[3]]
Children: Hawise (-1218)
Sibyl (-1213), m. Hugh de Plugenet
1.1 Hawise de Dinan[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1218[2]
co-heiress of her father[2]
the manor of Lambourn, Berks. was (part of) her inheritance, as was an
interest in Hartland and Buckland, Devon[2]
the lands of Westbury were also hers (given to her son Eudo)[4]
'In 1204 Hawise [de Dinan] and her sister and co-heiress, Sibil de
Dinan,
offered the fine of a horse for having recognition of their rights in
the
manors of Corton Dinham (Somerset), Hartland (Devonshire) and
Buckland (Devonshire). Hawise and Sibil won their suit in the
following year, for when Oliver de Dinan (apparently their cousin)
could not prove any right of possession concerning these manors,
he withdrew his claim.' [Meisel, p. 94][2]
gift of son Fulk fitz Warin of land for his foundation at Alberbury
ca. 1220-1230 made ' pro anime mee & .... Hawise matris mee ...'
(Nichols III/1, p. 332 charter 2)[5]
Spouse: Fulk fitz Warin, of Whittington, co. Salop
Death: aft 6 Nov 1194[1],[6]
Father: Fulk fitz Warin (-ca1171)
Mother: Eva
Marr: bef 1178[2]
Children: Sir Fulk (<1178->1250)
Philip
William (->1228)
John
Richard
Alan
Eudo
Eugenia
Eve
1.1.1a Sir Fulk FitzWarin*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 8 Oct 1250[1],[7],[8]
Birth: bef 1178[2]
knight, of Lambourn, co. Berks., Whittington, co. Salop. and Alveston,
co. Gloucester
Outlawed, then pardoned 15 Nov 1203 (with restoration of castle of
Whittington 17 Oct 1204) [1]
held lands in Devon (evidently at Hartland and Buckland) by service
of a knight's fee, 1211-12 (Meisel, p. 94)[2]
in rebellion against King John following Magna Carta and the invasion
of Prince Louis: excommunicated, and the manor of Alveston, co. Glocs.
seized, June 1216 (subsequently restored) [Meisel, p. 93][2]
' Fulk fitz Warren ', had charter for a fair at Lambourn, co. Berks.
granted between 21 and 24 Oct 1219, by King Henry III to Fulk fitz
Warren. ' To be held at the manor.' Mandate to the sheriff of
Berkshire to cause him to have it (C 60/9 m. 1). Nova Oblata: he
owed one palfrey (PR, 3 Hen III, pp. xx, 115, 162; PR, 4 Hen III,
p. 187). Charter for a Fair on vfm Matthew (21 Sept) granted by
King Henry III unto Fulk fitz Warren on 3 Sept 1227 (CChR, 1226-57,
p. 58). Order to sheriff of Berkshire regarding the fair, 1 Sept
1227 (RLC, ii, p. 199).[10]
' Fulk fitz Warin ', had charter for a market and fair granted
23 Nov 1219, by King Henry III to Fulk fitz Warin (C 60/12 m. 9).[10]
' Fulco filius Warini ', made a grant of land in Alberbury, co. Salop.
in founding a Benedictine priory, ca 1220-1230,
'... pro anime mee, & Matilde uxoris mee, & Fulconis patris mee, &
Hawise matris mee... de assensu Fulconis filii & heredis mei,...
testibus: Will'o filio Warini, Henrico de Traci, Aldulpho de
Braci,.
..Hugone de Hoe,..' (Nichols III/1, pp. 332 charter 2)[5] [dated
by Meisel as '1221-26' - p. 91[2]]
'In 1230 Fulk III and Sibil de Dinan's son, Alan de Plugenay, were
sued for
one carucate in Kilmeston [co. Hants.], but they were excused from
appearing in court because they were overseas in the king's service.'
(Meisel, p. 94)[2]
fined 600 mks. in 1233 for custody of the lands and heirs of William
Pantulf, his son-in-law (Meisel, p. 46)[2]
held Tadlow, co. Cambs. of Roger de Torpel (Meisel, p. 90)[2]
m. 2ndly Clarice d'Auberville, by whom he had a daughter Mabel
(and possibly, a son Fulk, known as Fulk 'the younger' ) [2]
d. after 8 October 1250:
earliest date of fine by "FULCO FIL' WARINI & CLARIC' ux' ejus "
[previous dated entry 8 October; next is 22 October] - Chris Phillips,
citing Excerpta e Rotulis Finium 1216-1272, vol. 2: 1246-1272,
p. 89 - 34 Henry III (1250), m. 2[8]
he m. 1stly (as 2nd husband) Maud le Vavasour,
2ndly Clarice d'Auberville [cf. CP Vol V, p. 495 note (c) [1]]
~ usually called 'Fulk III'[2]
Spouse: Maud le Vavasour
Death: bef 1227[2]
Father: Robert le Vavasour (-<1228)
Mother: NN de Birkin
Marr: bef 1 Oct 1207[1],[6],[11]
Children: Sir Fulk (-1264)
Hawise
Eve
1.1.1b Sir Fulk FitzWarin* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Clarice d'Auberville [2nd wife]
Death: aft 8 Oct 1250[8]
Father: Robert d'Auberville (-<1230)
Mother: Clarice
Children: Mabel (-<1297)
Fulk (->1266)
1.1.1b.1a Mabel FitzWarin*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 24 May 1297[1],[12]
had part of the lordship of Lambourn Hundred, co. Berks as her
maritagium :
' Fulk Fitz Warin acknowledges that he gave, conceded and
by his charter confirmed to Mabil, his daughter, for homage
and her service, his entire manor of Lambourn with all
appurtenances, to have and hold for herself and the heirs
of her body of Fulk and his heirs freely, quietly, etc.,
saving religious service, as is described in his charter.'
Meisel, p. 96 citing records of King's Bench for 1249[2]
___________________________
' For evidence that Mabel Fitz Warin was heiress of her mother, Clarice
de Auberville, I find that Mabel and her husband, Sir John Tregoz,
were
granted free warren of Iden and I[s]ham, Sussex 11 June 1271. '
[Douglas Richardson, cites Moor, Knights of Edward I 5 (H.S.P. 84)
(1932)]
probably m. 1stly, William de Crevequer in 1249;
m. 2ndly John de Tregoz (say 1255-1260 ?)[7]
she held the manor of Weston, co. Beds. in dower at her death
(IPM 24 May 1297, cited by Rosie Bevan)[12]
Spouse: William de Crevequer [1st husband]
Death: bef 6 Apr 1263, d.v.p., d.s.p.[1],[12]
Father: Hamo de Crevequer (-1263)
Mother: Maud d'Avranches
Marr: ? 1249[2]
1.1.1b.1b Mabel FitzWarin* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: John de Tregoz, of Ewyas Harold and Eaton Tregoz, co. Hereford
Death: 21 Aug 1300[1]
Father: Robert de Tregoz (-<1268)
Mother: Juliana de Cantelou (->1285)
Children: Clarice (-<1300)
Sybil (1270-1334)
1.1.1b.1b.1 Clarice de Tregoz
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 Aug 1300, d.v.p.[1]
eldest daughter and coheir (in her issue) of her father[1]
her son John inherited half of the barony of Ewyas Harold, co. Hereford
Spouse: Sir Roger la Warre
Death: 20 Jun 1320[1]
Father: Sir John la Warre (-<1279)
Mother: Olympia de Folkington
Marr: bef Oct 1276[1]
Children: John (<1276-1347)
Clarice (->1321) [conjectured wife of Adam de Everingham]
Roger
NN, a daughter
1.1.1b.1b.2 Sybil de Tregoz
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1270, Ewyas, co. Hereford[13]
Death: 12 Oct 1334[13]
Burial: Dore Abbey
2nd daughter and coheiress.
Lands of Sir John Tregoz ordered to be divided between his heirs,
26 Nov 1300[1] [her portion evidently included Lambourn, co. Berks
or a moiety thereof][2]
she inherited half of the barony of Ewyas Harold, co. Hereford[14]
probably 2nd wife of William de Grandison[15]
Spouse: Sir William de Grandison
Birth: Lake Neufchatel, Suisse[13]
Death: 27 Jun 1335[13]
Father: Pierre de Grandison (~1190-1263)
Mother: Agnes de Neuchatel
Marr: abt 1285
Children: Piers
John (1292-1369)
Thomas (>1291-)
William
Sir Otho
Matilda
Agnes
Mabel
Katherine (~1304-1349)
1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982
(Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland
Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. Janet Meisel, "Barons of the Welsh Frontier: The Corbet, Pantulf
and Fitz Warin Families, 1066-1272," Lincoln: University of
Nebraska Press.
3. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2,
2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
4. MichaelAnne Guido, "Halstead and the Old Charters," 8 November
2004, email ClaudiusI0, cites Genealogical Proofs of the
House of Maudit, A succinct Genealogy of he House of Maudit, by
Robert Halstead, London, 1685.
5. John Nichols, F.S.A., "The History and Antiquities of the County
of Leicester," London: Printed By and For John Nichols, 1795,
Vol. I, Appendix XIII: Chartulary of the Honour of Segrave, p.
119, charters of Thomas de Birkin, William de Flamborough and
Nicholas de Anesty, of lands in Pickwell and Leesthorpe, co.
Leics. to Stephen de Segrave, Vol. II, Pt. II (Gartre Hundred),
p. 488 re: grant of 'Boggeden' and Haverburgh to William de
Cantelou, 1237;, pp. 531 et seq., Burton Overy (family of Hugh
de Meinill), p. 768 et seq., manors of Pickwell and Leesthorpe
(Camville and Curzon), Vol. III, Pt. I (East Gascote Hundred) -
1800;
p. 62 et seq., Barrow;, pp. 301 et seq., Launde priory;, pp. 332
et seq., Whadborough (charters of Fulk Fitz Warin and family),
pp. 353 et seq., Prestwould; pp. 363 et seq., Burton on the Wolds.
6. John Ross Delafield, "Delafield : the family history," privately
published:, 1945, cites extract re: FitzWarin from Rev. R. W.
Eyton, Antiquities of Shropshire, .pdf image files provided by
Genealogy.com www.genealogy.com.
7. John P. Ravilious, "CP Correction: Fulk 'III' FitzWarin and His
Descendants," May 3, 2003, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites
Close Rolls of the Reign of Henry III (1227-1272), Vol. II p.
210, as cited in the Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs:, and the
records of King's Bench from 1249, as cited by Janet Meisel,
Barons of the Welsh Frontier: The Corbet, Pantulf and Fitz
Warin Families, 1066-1272, p. 96.
8. Chris Phillips, "Re: CP Correction: Fulk 'III' FitzWarin and His
Descendants," May 9, 2003, paper copy: library of John Ravilious,
cites Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 16, p. 165 - Trin. Term 23 Hen III
(1239) m. 14, re: Agnes filia Warini;, Excerpta e Rotulis
Finium 2:89 (34 Hen III m. 2), re: Clarice, wife of Fulk Fitz
Warin;, CCR 1251-53 p. 208 (36 Hen III m. 20d), re: Fulk fitz
Warin 'junior' vs. John le Vavasour, Chris Phillips,
c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk.
9. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
10. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
11. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London:
John Russell Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132
(Banaster) and 133-142 (Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp.
350-359 (Meole Brace and de Bracy).
12. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Clarice, wife of Sir Adam de Everingham (Clarice
la Warre ?)," Feb 19, 2003, email, the...@aol.com (paper copy:
library of John Ravilious, cites MABEL, LATE THE WIFE OF JOHN
TREGOZ - Writ 24 May, 25 Edw I, [BEDFORD] Inq Wednesday after
St Barnabas, 25 Edw I, also CIPM v.7 no.676, the IPM of William
de Grandison (1335).
13. "Ancestors of Edmund de Mortimer," David Utzinger
U...@aol.com, 4 August 2000.
14. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
15. Douglas Richardson, "Hastings-Morley," June 28, 2001,
royala...@email.msn.com (direct email).
WJho...@aol.com
Rosie Bevan
John Tregoz of Ewyas Harold married Mabel, daughter of Fulk fitz Warin
and Clarice de Auberville (as identified by Paget). He and Mabel
settled 87 librates of land in Isham and Iden, Sussex, (Mabel's
inheritance) and 23 librates of land in Chipping Lambourn (Mabel's
maritagium given by her father in 1249 on her first marriage to William
de Crevequer d.s.p. 1263 [CRR XIX no.326]) on William de Grandison and
Sybil in 1284/1285 [Salzmann. F of F Sussex vol. II, no.978]. Mabel
died in 1297 when an inquisition was held into the dower she held of
William de Crevequer's heirs [CIPM, 3 no. 412].
>From John's IPM in 1300 [CIPM 3, no.603] we know that his heirs were
his grandson John de la Warre, son of Clarice and Roger de la Warre,
aged 24, and Sibyl, John's second daughter, aged 30, wife of William de
Grandison. John left a widow, Joan, daughter of Adam de Cokefield
(heir of her brother Robert d.1297 when she was recorded as 23 years of
age [CIPM 3, no.384] who married secondly Lawrence de Hameldene by 9th
February 1302 [CFR, 1, p.449] and thirdly William de Beauchamp [Farrer.
Honors and Knight's Fees, v. 3, p.367]. (The latter was presumably
uncle of Roger de Beauchamp of Bletsoe who married Sybil de Pateshall,
granddaughter of Sybil Tregoz)
There was another contemporary and kinsman of Sir John Tregoz. He died
around 1288 as noted, and was possibly the same as the John Tregoz,
nicknamed 'pauper' holding a knight's fee in Ewyas Harold of Sir John
Tregoz. His wife Mabel was formerly wife of John de la Riviere d. 1277
(whose mother was incidentally Eleanor, da. of Fulk fitz Warin). Mabel
died in 1317 when her inquisition [CIPM 6, no. 765] established that
she held the hamlet of Sturdon, Gloucestershire as tenant of the king,
that she had died on 26th March, and that her daughter, Joan, wife of
Richard de la Ryvere, "aged 24 and more" was her next heir. Shortly
afterwards the king made the order to the escheator "to deliver to
Richard de la Riviere and Joan his wife, daughter and heir of Amabel
late the wife of John de Tregoz, tenant in chief, the lands late of her
said mother, Richard having done fealty" [CFR, 1307-1319, pp. 332].
Presumably Joan was her daughter by John Tregoz, for in 1338 Alina
Burnel complained that Joan de la Ryvere of Wyke, her son John, John
Tregoz, and others of Joan's household broke into her houses in Compton
Daundo and carried away her goods and assaulted her servants [CPR,
13338-1340, p.183].
I hope this has helped clarify the situation.
Cheers
mj...@btinternet.com
mhol...@mac.com wrote:
> Please. She had already married him. That why she was being fined.
No; she was John Tregoz's widow in 1288. The "fine" was simply a
payment to excuse her from being obliged to marry someone else, in the
days when a feudal lord had the right to arrange the marriage of his
tenant's widow.
MA-R
The...@aol.com
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
===================================================
King Henry III unto Fulk fitz Warren on 3 Sept 1227 (CChR, 1226–57,
WJho...@aol.com
<< 2. As to the second, Doug Richardson wrote a while back (in part):
' For evidence that Mabel Fitz Warin was heiress of her mother,
Clarice de Auberville, I find that Mabel and her husband, Sir
John Tregoz, were granted free warren of Iden and I[s]ham,
Sussex 11 June 1271. ' [1]
Doug noted that Iden and Isham were subsequently inherited
by Sibyl de Tregoz. >>
Agreed. However that creates the problem that Mabel, in 1288, is being fined
10 pounds for either getting married, or in order to get married, however you
view it. And yet, she is the mother of a Clarice granted free warren in
1271, during the lifes of both her own parents? So assuming the manor went to
Clarice in marriage, still Mabel has a 1288 fine.
How can that be explained?
John Watson
Dear Rosie, Will, John et al.,
Thank you all very much for clearing up my confusion over the two Johns
and two Mabels.
There is a possiblility that the John Tregoz who died in or before 1288
was the son of Sir John Tregoz. In a post to SGM by Douglas Richardson
on 13 Dec 2005, he quotes a footnote in VCH Sussex, Vol 9, pp 152-3.
"FN (9) Cal. Charter Rolls, 1257-1300, pg. 169. There is mention of
Sir John Tregoz, elder and younger, before 1269: Lord de L'Isle and
Dudley MSS. (Hist. MSS. Comm.), 113."
I note that now we have another John Tregoz mentioned in the CPR of 16
Nov 1338, quoted above. I wonder who he was?
Regards
John
WJho...@aol.com
rbe...@paradise.net.nz writes:
<< Mabel's
maritagium given by her father in 1249 on her first marriage to William
de Crevequer d.s.p. 1263 [CRR XIX no.326]) >>
Since this 1263 is an issue, does CRR actually state "1263" or does it say
something more vague that makes the terminus date obscure ?
Since the 1300 IPM of John is quite specific about the ages of the heirs,
this point is of the utmost importance obviously since, if 1263 is an actual
terminus, then we are once more thrown to the wolves on this family, since Clarice
HAS to be born by 1261 at the absolute latest, unless we want to go
considering an 11 or 12 year old mother....
Will Johnson
Cristopher Nash
> 1.1.1b.1b.2 Sybil de Tregoz
> ----------------------------------------
[SNIP]
> probably 2nd wife of William de Grandison[15]
>
> Spouse: Sir William de Grandison
> Birth: Lake Neufchatel, Suisse[13]
> Death: 27 Jun 1335[13]
> Father: Pierre de Grandison (~1190-1263)
> Mother: Agnes de Neuchatel
Cheers John! Just to help a bit to keep the Tregoz discussion clear
of confusion where poss, I wonder if we might just hold this part of
the sequence under wraps until some clear evidence for it turns up?
Not quite sure how, short of a visit to the sybil, we'll find
something hard as a pierre here, but otherwise I-for-one fear passing
the muddle on to my grandisons?!
Yrs ever,
C