Correction biography Margarete of Hungary
Leo
I interpret ES as saying something different.
Margaret does have a son Guillaume, this son "could be" the same as that Guillaume who was married to Pernel de Lacy.
In otherwords (to me at least) we are certain that _a_ Guillaume was the son of Margarete, and we do not know if he was married. The "other" Guillaume who was married could be the same.
We have to keep in mind that there possibly were two people called Guillaume de Saint Omer.
ES tells: Guillaume, first in Naples, then to Flanders (possibly identical with Guillaume who died after 19 October 1265, and who before 15 October 1256 married Pernel de Lacy who died after 25 November 1288, widow of Raoul VI de Tosny, daughter of Walter (and Marguerite de Briouze)).
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
WJho...@aol.com
jhigg...@yahoo.com writes:
> I've had my fill of Will on this particular topic. Both his attitude
> (as you've mentioned) and his approach to so-called "research" are too
> much to deal with - and not good for my blood pressure! >>
Then bugger off you old fishwife or cinch em up !
Stop eating your milk-sodden toast and do a little more work.
I've down ten times more to resurrect the life of poor Margaret, and her
various connections and descendants, then all your carping and whining, mister
wiper of babies bottoms.
Peter Stewart
"John" <jhigg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f5b07cce-b153-41a4...@l32g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
> No, I think it's now clear that ESNF was wrong in suggesting that
> the Guillaume (or William) who married Pernel de Lacy was the
> Guillaume who was son of Nicolas and Margaret of Hungary. And
> Cawley in Medlands repeated the ESNF hypothesis without
> verifying it. See the note that I posted yesterday quoting from F. N.
> Craig's article in NEHGR, which gives William de St. Omer,
> husband of Pernel de Lacy, a different father.
The chronicle ascribed to Baudouin d'Avesnes says that Nicholas of
Saint-Omer's younger son Guillaume died without an heir ("Li aisnes ot non
Bylaus et li autres Guillaumes. Cil moru sans hoir de sa char..."), although
it is also confused about his mother calling her a sister of Guillaume de la
Roche, duke of Athens.
Anyway, Guillaume the son of Nicholas and Margaret of Hungary was given
lands near Naples after 1265 by Charles I of Anjou, and lost these after
abandoning the kingdom shortly before 12 June 1281 when (as "Guillermus
castellanus sancti Adomarii") he was formally deprived.
What happened to him after that is unknown - he would have been aged ca 70+
at the time. The suggestion that he returned to Flanders, as far as I can
tell, originated with Jean Buchon in _Recherches historiques sur la
principauté française de Morée et ses hautes baronnies_ (1845).
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:i6c14l$esu$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
It's worth noting that there is a contradictory - though implausible -
account of Guillaume's fate in a later epitaph from St Domnius cathedral in
Split, which states (in doggerel) that he died in a campaign of his cousin
Bela IV against Tartars on 20 April 1242. He was supposedly betrothed at the
time to his first cousin once removed, Bela's daughter Margaret who died in
the same year along with her sister Catharina, all three of them allegedly
buried in the same tomb. This is quoted in _Codex diplomaticus Hungariae
ecclesiasticus ac civilis_, edited by György Fejér, tome 4, vol 1 (Buda,
1829) pp 270-271, available at
http://books.google.com/booksid=WVkPAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:AFkPAAAAQAAJ&hl=en&ei=phKTI2_ItKInQfIpITWCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBQ.
Two of Bela's daughters died at Klis while taking refuge from Tartars with
their mother and they were buried in Split cathedral according to Thomas the
Archdeacon (of Split), writing in the mid-13th century - but he did not
mention Guillaume (quoted by Fejér on p 271).
Peter Stewart
wjhonson
> "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> news:i6c14l$esu$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Two of Bela's daughters died at Klis while taking refuge from Tartars with
> their mother and they were buried in Split cathedral according to Thomas the
> Archdeacon (of Split), writing in the mid-13th century - but he did not
> mention Guillaume (quoted by Fejér on p 271).
>
> Peter Stewart
This link came to me garbled. After a little poking about it should
be
http://books.google.com/books?id=WVkPAAAAQAAJ&dq=editions%3AAFkPAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA270
Something had removed the "?" between "books" and "id"
wjhonson
>
> Something had removed the "?" between "books" and "id"- Hide quoted text -
>
Well I added a few links to this source, in my article, but my German
comprehension is almost nil. Tried to use an online translator but
it's too garbled to really understand much of it.
http://knol.google.com/k/scholar-s-edition/margaret-of-hungary/1v006m22b04uw/7#
John
I can't judge your German comprehension, but clearly your Latin
comprehension is less than nil, since the source that Peter cited is
in Latin, not German. And perhaps that explains why your online
translator was "too garbled to really understand".
Enough said....
wjhonson
>
> I can't judge your German comprehension, but clearly your Latin
> comprehension is less than nil, since the source that Peter cited is
> in Latin, not German. And perhaps that explains why your online
> translator was "too garbled to really understand".
>
Oh John you're such a spiteful old strumpet.
I admit I can't follow multiple threads on the same subject very
well :)
Obviously I was referring to this other message (copied below) which
Peter had posted in that other thread on this same topic.
On Sep 9, 7:28 pm, "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> You would be well advised to read Moriz Wertner's 'Margarethe von Ungarn,
> Kaiserin von Griechenland und Königin von Thessalonich',
> _Vierteljahrsschrift für Wappen-, Siegel-, und Familienkunde_ 18 (1890)
> 219-255, available at
>
> http://books.google.com.au/books?id=0t8SAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&....
>
> NB on page 224 you will find proof that Ioannes Angelos, lord of Syrmia, was
> a son of Emperor Isaakios and a cousin of Margaret's nephew Bela IV of
> Hungary.
>
> Peter Stewart
John
But that German source is not mentioned in your article - so clearly
you were referring to the Latin article (which IS cited there) when
you talked about citing it in your article and bemoaning your lack of
German comprehension. Or perhaps, as you say, you just get easily
confused by all this information - and in so many different
languages....
But of course this couldn't possibly be just a Will Johnson mistake -
such events never occur.
wjhonson
>
> But that German source is not mentioned in your article - so clearly
> you were referring to the Latin article (which IS cited there) when
> you talked about citing it in your article and bemoaning your lack of
> German comprehension. Or perhaps, as you say, you just get easily
> confused by all this information - and in so many different
> languages....
>
> But of course this couldn't possibly be just a Will Johnson mistake -
> such events never occur.
Yes it's mentioned in two places I believe. For one of those, if you
hover your mouse over the phrase "two years old at his father's death"
where I mention the birth of Demetrius you will see that the link goes
to this German source.
I'm not even entirely certain that's what the source says, but I think
it does.
Peter Stewart
"wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:79c8b68a-a53c-44e9...@z30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Well I added a few links to this source, in my article, but my
> German comprehension is almost nil. Tried to use an online
> translator but it's too garbled to really understand much of it.
>
> http://knol.google.com/k/scholar-s-edition/margaret-of-hungary/1v006m22b04uw/7#
I don't have to read through this at present, but a few things jump out that
need correcting:
"With Isaac she had two sons: Manuel Angelos (1189/92 - 1212)" - Rennell
Rodd is not a very reliable source in general. The article on Margaret by
Wertner (note 2 on page 223) also says that Manuel died at Nicaea in 1212,
on 17 June, but no source for this information is cited there either. It is
worth noting that his half-sister Eirene Maria, wife of the German king
Philipp of Swabia, arranged for the anniversary of her brother Manuel's
death to be commemorated at Speyer cathedral on 1 October ("Manuel frater
Marie regine et Effrosina soror eiusdem obierunt, quorum anniversarium ipsa
constituit celebrari", see Hansjörg Grafen, 'Spuren der ältesten Speyerer
Necrologüberlieferung: Ein verlorenes Totenbuch aus dem 11. Jahrhundert' in
_Frümittelalterliche Studien_ 19 (1985), p. 408). Since Eirene Maria herself
died in August 1208 this means that her brother Manuel was dead by 1207 at
the latest, so unless she had an otherwise unknown full-brother also named
Manuel this clearly precludes his dying at Nicaea in 1212. NB Wertner, loc.
cit., adds that Manuel had no known wife or offspring.
"John Angelos (~1193 - before 13 Jan 1254)" - proofs of his parentage are
quoted with references by Wertner on pp. 224-225.
"Guillaume de St Omer, the younger son, born 1209/19...But see also this
entry in Codex diplomaticus Hungariae cited by Peter Stewart on Gen-Med 9
Sep 2010" - you have omitted the evidence I mentioned earlier, justifying
this "But", that he held lands in the Angevin kingdom of Naples (Sicily) and
was deprived in 1281 after leaving.
"Appendix A" - you have garbled the Latin by leaving out the rhyming
syllables for each couplet, which complete the last words in each line.
If the epitaph is to be quoted it should be set out as follows (reset as
necessary to view the curly brackets properly in line):
Catharina inclita, et fulgens Margari }
In hoc arcto tumulo iacent absque vi } ta
Bele IIII. filie, regis Hungaro }
Et Mariae Lascari regine Graeco } rum
Ab impiis Tartaris fuerunt fuga }
Mortue in Clissio, huc Spalatum transla } te
Iacet hoc sub lapide nobilis Gulielm }
Iacet heros inclitus, operit quem tell } us
Nepos Bele tertii, regis Vngaror }
Margarite genitus, domine Graecor } um
Dicti regis filia Grecis dominatr }
Constantinopoleos sceptris imperatr } ix
Arcente denique barbaro peruer }
Infinitis Tartaris marte sub aduer } so
Quartum Belam prosequens, eius consobrin }
Ad mare peruenerat usque Dalmatin } um
Vbi ad commercia vite celsior }
Mortis soluit debitum iussu Creator } is
Anni Christi fluxerant mille cum ducent }
Quadraginta duo plus computo legent } is
Aprilis vigesima die iam transact }
Qua Gulielmi spiritus rediit ad astr } a
Heu accedit inclita sponsa Margari }
Sanctum gerens spiritum moribus et vi } ta:
Nam cuncta, quae moriens ita vir legau }
Dispergens, pauperibus prorsus erogau } it.
Qualia ecclesie tulit ornamen }
Ex imperialibus pannis vestimen } ta,
Patent intuentibus, lucem et supern }
Eis postulent requiem aetern } am.
Peter Stewart
WJho...@aol.com
pss...@bigpond.com writes:
> Since Eirene Maria herself
> died in August 1208 this means that her brother Manuel was dead by 1207 at
>
> the latest, so unless she had an otherwise unknown full-brother also named
>
> Manuel this clearly precludes his dying at Nicaea in 1212. NB Wertner,
> loc.
> cit., adds that Manuel had no known wife or offspring. >>
No that's really excellent because somewhere in my reading I ran across the
statement that that one who has some kind of garbled inscription calling
him Manual Angelos or whatever, who died there in Nicaea was "aged 35" or
something to that extent and the author I was reading was querying whether this
could really be our man or not, because of that odd note, placing him born
way back before Margaret's marriage. And including that Margaret was
supposed to be only "aged 10" when she married.
So now it makes a lot more sense that the real Manual died before Eirene
and the other guy was someone else.
If I have time, I've have to go back and track that down again and source
it all out.
WJho...@aol.com
pss...@bigpond.com writes:
> "Appendix A" - you have garbled the Latin by leaving out the rhyming
> syllables for each couplet, which complete the last words in each line.
>
> If the epitaph is to be quoted it should be set out as follows (reset as
> necessary to view the curly brackets properly in line):
>
Catharina inclita, et fulgens Margari }>
> In hoc arcto tumulo iacent absque vi } ta
> Bele IIII. filie, regis Hungaro }
> Et Mariae Lascari regine Graeco } rum
> Ab impiis Tartaris fuerunt fuga }
> Mortue in Clissio, huc Spalatum transla } te
-------------------------------
Um... huh?
Do you mean something like uh.... the word at the end of line 2 is actually
"vita" and they've broken it up because they are trying to make it rhyme?
("vi" rhymes with "ri".... "co" rhymes with "ro")
So the line endings are actually vita, Graecorum, translate, .... like
that?
wjhonson
John
You've got the idea - sort of.
What Peter is saying is that the separated syllable in the right
column applies to BOTH of the lines that appear to the left of it -
thus making the two-line pair rhyme, at least in the last syllable.
Thus the ending words are Margarita, vita, Hungarorum, Graecorum,
fugate, translate, Gulielmus, tellus, etc.
Peter Stewart
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.220.12841623...@rootsweb.com...
See the article by Wertner, p. 223 note 2 - the claim that Manuel was 35
years old in 1212, i.e. born in 1177 when his mother was aged 2, was made by
Hopf, presumably Carl Hopf in _Geschichte Griechenlands vom Beginn des
Mittelalters bis auf unsere Zeit_, 2 vols (Leipzig, 1867-1868). This was
reprinted in 1960 and consequently Google Books ("a project to make the
world's books discoverable online") has ceded to the vast commercial
interests at stake over the work in the second-hand book trade by declining
to make it discoverable online.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.221.12841625...@rootsweb.com...
Yes. Some of the lines rhyme crudely and/or only in the last syllable, for
instance
Iacet hoc sub lapide nobilis Gulielm }
Iacet heros inclitus, operit quem tell } us
[...]
Aprilis vigesima die iam transact }
Qua Gulielmi spiritus rediit ad astr } a
It's a feeble piece of work from a literary point of view, and propbably
much later than the 13th century - it is no longer extant but was reported
independently by two historians in the 17th century.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:i6c14l$esu$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
It turns out that this is wrong after all - the Guillaume of Saint-Omer who
was given lands by Charles of Anjou was in fact a first cousin twice removed
to his namesake the younger son of Nicholas by Margaret of Hungary, so the
basis for speculating that the latter returned to Flanders before June 1281
disappears.
The castellany of Saint-Omer was inherited by Beatrice (a sister of
Nicholas) who married Philip of Aire and died in 1253 leaving Saint-Omer to
her daughter Mathilde, wife of Jean II of Ypres, lord of Reninge. Their son
Guillaume VII was father of the Guillaume VIII, who took part in the
campaigns of Charles of Anjou and lived until 1283 or later. This was the
man whose lands were repossessed in 1281.
The genealogy above is set out by Ernest Warlop in _The Flemish Nobility
Before 1300_, 3 vols (Courtrai 1975-1976). For Guillaume VIII the references
are: _Les châtelains de Flandre: étude d'histoire constitutionnelle_ by
Willem Blommaert (1915) and a charter of Philippe de Quienville, who was in
charge of Saint-Omer in Guillaume's absence, dated February 1279:
"Jou Phelippes de Kienvile, chevaliers, tenans le liu et warde de le tiere
mon chier segneur, monsegneur Willaume, castelain de Saint Omer, liquels est
en lointaines tieres, fai savoir... ke mesir Wautiers, etc. a vendu
iretaulement, etc., par devant mi et par devant ses pers, houmes audit
castelain ki à ce furent apelé soufisanment, c'est à savoir monsegneur
Boissart de Renenghes et monsegneur Jehan de Cornus...".
Peter Stewart