Re: John, Lord of Mawddwy/Mouthwy, son in law of Sir Fulke Corbet
Millerf...@aol.com
Shropshire manors which had belonged to Sir Fulke Corbet, down to the four
daughters and co-heiresses of Sir John Burgh. This Sir John's inheritance also
included the hereditary lordship of Mawddwy, (his IPM dated 17th Aug 1471 showed
him to be "seised of the lordship of Moutho in Powisland"). This he must have
acquired as heir of his mother Elizabeth, sister and heiress of her brother
Fulke Mouth (d.1414- I set out a lot of his IPM in my December post)
The purpose of this post is to show how the lordship of Mawddwy had
descended to Elizabeth Burgh nee "Mouthe", as to which we have the authority of
Camden in his "Britannia", as follows:-
"Eastward where Dovy runneth standeth Mouthwy a Commot very well knowne,
which fell for "a childes part of inheritance to William alias Wilcock of
Mouthwy, a younger sonne of "Gruffith Ap Gwenwynwin Lord of Powis, and by his sons
daughter it came unto Sir Hugh "Burgh, and by his sons daughters likewise
unto the familes of Newport, Leighton, Lingein, "and Mitton, of especiall
respect in these parts."
Interestingly, the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire, prepared under Camden's
supervision as Clarenceux King of Arms, sets out the same descent at page 104.
However (though not without trepidation) I suggest, on the evidence set out
below, that the august Camden erred in one minor detail: he should I believe
have said "and by his grandson's daughter".
Here is my reconstruction of the true descent.
.
1. Owain Cyfeiliog, Prince of Southern Powys 1160-1195 (abdicated), d. 1197
=Gwenllian verch Owain Gwynedd, Prince of N.Wales. See Welsh DNB
Owain's biog. in the Welsh DNB
2.Gwenwynwyn ap Owain Cyfeiliog, Prince of Southern Powys 1195-1216 (see the
Welsh DNB) = Margaret
[1623 Vis of Salop says she was Margaret verch Rhys ap Theodor, Prince of
South Wales]
3.Gruffyd ap Gwenwynwyn/ Wenunwyn, Lord of Arwystli, Cyfeiliog and Mawddwy:
suit with Llewelyn, Prince of Wales C47/27/2/19 May 19 1280. Biography
available on line at the National Library of Wales and the DNB. His complex
involvement with Prince Llewelyn is described in Llewelyn's biography in the Welsh
DNB.
d. 21 Feb 1286/7 = Hawise Le Strange, sister of Roger Le Strange SC8/74/3694
Note Edw I granted Church Stretton to Hawise in 1276 SC8/197/9836. In 1299
she was to be tried for trespass committed by her and her sons William, John
and Griffin against Roger Trumwyne and his wife Joan. There is more about this
dispute, which concerned the castle of la Pole, in CPR 1299, p464. CPR 1322
shows that this Joan was the former wife of Owen de la Pole, and held land in
Powys as dower
In 1309 Hawise was given licence to exchange her interest in Stretton with
the Earl of Arundel for a life interest in his manors of Wroxeter and Upton,
Salop: CPR 26th October
4. Owen ap Gruffyd, Prince of Powys Gwenwynwyn [IPM 21 Edw I, C133/64/16]
=Joanna Corbet, d. of Robert Corbet and Eliz le Strange [some sources say
she was named Margaret, but at any rate his widow was named Joan- see below
under 1295].
In 1294 custody of his castle of Welshpool ("la Pole") was given to Roger
Le Strange by reason of the minority of the heir- presumably Griffith ap Owen
de la Pole- see below: CPR Sept 28th.
In 1295 a commission issued to John de Havering, Bogo de Knovill and William
de Mortuo Mari [Mortimer], on complaint by Joan, late the wife of Owen de la
Pole, that William son of Griffin de la Pole, John and David his brothers,
Madoc ab Mayler and Owen le Say deforce her of her reasonable dower in the
lands of her late husband in Mayrdekerist in Mancho,
sc Mawddwy] Creynon [sc Caereneon] , Bynweythan, Lestynwonnan [part of
John's portion, v. inf],Tlilangadeuen, Blanto, Cortaloc, Pennarth, Ruthyrgarth,
Estredaluedan and Trevelyk in Wales;..... and the sheriff of Salop, the king's
bailiffs of Monte Gomeri, the bailiffs
of Edmund de Mortuo Mari in Kery and Keclewynk, the bailiffs of Richard son
of Alan, earl of Arundell, in Clonne, and the bailiffs of the bishop of
Hereford in the town of Bishop's Castle are commanded to provide a jury.
Younger sons of Gruffyd were Llewelyn of Rhayadr and Mochain, John of
Caereneon, William of Mawddwy, Gruffyd of Stradmarchel and David of Caereneon.
Presumably William, John and David were the subject of Joan's complaint, made in
1295- v. supra.
Owen carved up the ancient principality of Southern Powys, dividing it
between himself and his younger brothers, apparently giving effect to a
disposition previously made by his father. His brother William's share was "the land of
Mouthoe", subject to homage, fealty, war service, tallage and castle repair
costs: I have set out all that I can find about the carve-up in the footnote
to this post, which I have derived, with due acknowledgments to Professor
Boynton of the University of Iowa, from a later exemplification at CPR 1342 pp.
496 et seq. The exemplification dates the enrolment of the relevant documents
to 1300 (18 Edw I), so clearly they were not enrolled for several years
after Owen's death.
Owen's son and heir Griffith ap Owen de la Pole prayed for his lands, with
reference to Powis Castle,
Welshpool SC 8/280/13997. He d. 1309 (CPR 6th Aug 1309, dealing with the
marriage of his widow Ela)
Said to have married Ela de Audley of Brimpsfield- dsp, since his sister
Hawise "Gadarn"- "the Hardy" became Owen ap Gruffyd's sole heir, marrying John
Cherleton in 1309, carrying to him the lordship of Powis: see her entry in
the Welsh DNB
5.. Owen's younger brother Sir William "Wilcox" de la Pole, Lord Mawddwy d.
<1302
6. His son Griffin de la Pole did homage and fealty, seemingly while still
under age, on 20th July 1302: CPR 5th March 1344, a subsequent
exemplification, which also records that on 11 March 33 Edw I the Lady Wladusa, late the
wife of Sir William de la Pole, who was dowered out of her husband's lands in
Powys and held two other thirds in her custody during the nonage of the heir,
made oath of fealty and was enjoined not to remarry without the Prince's
licence on pain of forfeiture. I know nothing more of this lady. but she must I
think have been the second wife of Sir William, since most sources give Sir
William's wife, mother of his son Griffin, as Elynor, sister of Owain
Glendower's mother Elen.
Griffin, son of William, petitioned for the land of Mawddwy/Mouthe, alleging
that his father William held Mawddwy as one of the parceners of Powys SC
8/258/12897 (circa 1316 according to the National Archives, but it was probably
much earlier, since he had done fealty and homage in 1302- v.sup)
Pardoned November 6th 1313 for besieging la Pole, then held by John Cherleton
Disseised of Deuddyr and Mechain le Coed by John Cherleton in 1328 SC
8/261/13027 and see CPR for 1331. He seems to have recovered the commote of
Deuddyr, for in 1332 he had royal licence to settle it on himself, remainder to
Richard, Earl of Arundel.
In 1343 John Cherleton the elder was detaining Griffin's wife Matilda at la
Pole castle: a commission was appointed to secure her release on 6th November
[CPR]. I do not know who this Matilda was.
7. John, Lord Mawddwy, disseised of Shropshire manors by Isolde, widow of
Sir John de More (petition SC8/221/11030, date 1390) and d.3 Nov 1403. Married
Elizabeth, daughter and sole heiress of Sir Fulke Corbet, King's Knight to
Ric II. I have seen no record of his having been the son of Griffin ap William
ap Griffin, but clearly he must have been heir in tail of Mawddwy, since
William was heir in tail of the Mawddwy lordship, and not the son but rather the
grandson of William.
8. John's son and heir Fulke Mouthe, ward of Joan Queen of England 1st Dec
1403 SC8/229/11446, CPR 1401-5,332. Proved his age 13 H IV
9. John's daughter, Fulke's sister Elizabeth, wife of Hugh Burgh, aged 24 in
1414
It seems that Camden nodded in placing the unnamed father in law of Hugh
Burgh as the son of William: if he were, he would have been aged 100 or so at
his death in 1403. Instead I believe him to have been the son of William's son
Griffin.
FOOTNOTE as to the division of Southern Powys between the six sons of
Griffin ap Gwenwynwyn
>From CPR 1342, p496-7 July 10 Tower of London.
Exemplification for Owen son of Griffin Wenunwyn of enrolments on
the rolls of the Chancery of Edward I, as follows; —
(1) Composition] between Sir Owen son of Griffin ab Wenonwyn and
Griffin his brother to settle a contention touching lands assigned
by the father, with the assent and licence of the said king, to
the said Griffin. Owen grants that Griffin shall hold the land
of Mecheyn Iscoyt for the life of Hawisia their mother, and
then the land of Deudour which she holds in dower shall remain
to him in tail. The land in each instance to> be held by specified
services. Done at Westminster, 17 May, 18 Edward I, before
R. Burnell, bishop of Bath and Wells, the chancellor, H. de
Lascy, earl of Lincoln, 0. de Grandisono, W. his brother, Robert
de Tibotot, P. Corbet, H. de Turbervill, G. de Picheford, Roger
de Springhose, Thomas de Pyuelesdon, and others.
(2) The like between the said Owen and John son of Griffin, his
brother, to settle a like contention. Owen grants to John for
life five towns in Kereynon, to wit, Brynwayen, Lestynwormau,
Langadevan, Blaute and Coythalauc, by specified services, and
after the demise of Hawisia a moiety of the said land of
Mecheynhiscot, Enrolled with, these witnesses; R. bishop of
Bath and Wells, H. de Lascy, earl of Lincoln, Otto do
Grandisone, William his brother, Robert Tibotot, Peter Corbet,
Hugh de Turbervill, Geoffrey de Pioheford, knights, Malcolm de
Harlegh, Thomas de Pyuelesdon and others.
(3) The like between the said Owen and David his brother, touching
a like contention. Owen grants to David for life two towns
in Kereynon, to wit Penarth and Rewyreth, by specified services,
and after the demise of Hawisia, a moiety of the said land
of Mecheyn Hyscot. Done at Westminster, 16 May, 18 Edward I.
Enrolled as above.
(4) Charter of the said Owen, lord of la Pole, granting in tail
for his homage and service to William de la Pole his brother, the
land of Maudoe [sic], three articles excepted, to wit, going forth to
war, common tallage and' works of castles, which William and
his tenants owe to the grantor, with reversion to the latter.
Witnesses; Robert, bishop of Bath and Wells, Humphrey de
Bohun, earl of Hereford, Edmund de Mortuo Mari, Peter Corbet,
Robert Tibbetot, Roger Lestraunge, Walter de Hopton and
others.
(5) Grant in tail by the same Owen to Lewelin son of Griffin, his
brother, of the lands of Mochnant Huchraydre and Mechen
Huchkoyt [sic, but read Yscoed], with the towns of Lanmethad, Lanhurvil,
Leshyn and
Kevvinyl, with the pasture and chace of Kevenedron. Witnesses
as above.
(6) Release by John son of Griffin son of Wenonwyn to the same
Owen of all right in the lands of his father, saving such as
Owen and his heirs are bound to warrant to him for life. Dated
at Westminster, 16 May, 18 Edward I
(7) Release by the said Lewelin as above.
(8) The like by the said David.
(9) The like by the said William son of Griffin son of Wenonwyn.
Dated at Westminster, 16 May, 18 Edward I [1300]
All criticisms, corrections and amplifications are, as ever, welcome
MM
WJho...@aol.com
Millerf...@aol.com writes:
<< Said to have married Ela de Audley of Brimpsfield- dsp, since his sister
Hawise "Gadarn"- "the Hardy" became Owen ap Gruffyd's sole heir, marrying
John
Cherleton in 1309, carrying to him the lordship of Powis: see her entry in
the Welsh DNB >>
I wonder if this shouldn't be "bef 6 Aug 1309"
It's a bit suspicious that she marries in the same year that her brother dies
and adding to that we have Isabella's son (presumably) John, 2nd Lord
Cherleton marrying Maud de Mortimer "bef 13 Apr 1319" and a daughter from that union
Isabella Cherleton having a son John de Sutton, Lord Dudley by at the latest
1338
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
Millerf...@aol.com writes:
<< Composition] between Sir Owen son of Griffin ab Wenonwyn and
Griffin his brother to settle a contention touching lands assigned
by the father, with the assent and licence of the said king, to
the said Griffin. Owen grants that Griffin shall hold the land
of Mecheyn Iscoyt for the life of Hawisia their mother, and
then the land of Deudour which she holds in dower shall remain
to him in tail. The land in each instance to> be held by specified
services. Done at Westminster, 17 May, 18 Edward I, before >>
Is not this Sir Owen who is here "granting" in 1300, that same Owen (ap
Gruffydd ap Wenonwyn) who is supposed to be dead by 28 Sep 1294 when custody of his
minor heir and castle are being granted ?
Millerf...@aol.com
of the "carve-up" of Southern Powis as 1300. It was instead made in the year
18 Edw I, as appears from the exemplification which I copied as a footnote
to my post.
Thanks to Will Jhonson for his private mail drawing my attention to the
mistake
MM
Sutliff
<Millerf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2017.11695718...@rootsweb.com...
<snip>
<snip>
What source makes Joan Corbet, daughter of Robert Corbet and Elizabeth le
Strange? They did indeed have a daughter Joan, but I believe she married Sir
Robert Harley d. 1370 and John Darras d. 1408 and was of a later generation
than the Joan who married Owen ap Gruffudd.
Henry Sutliff
Sources: HOP 1386-1421 IV:64
"Another Look at Joan de Harley: WIll Her Real Descendants Please Rise", by
Paul C. Reed, FASG, The Genealogist published by the Association for the
Promotion of Scholarship in Genealogy, Ltd. (editor: Neil D. Thompson),
Volume X, No. 1, Spring 1989
Millerf...@aol.com
<What source makes Joan Corbet, daughter of Robert Corbet and Elizabeth le
<Strange? They did indeed have a daughter Joan, but I believe she married
Sir
<Robert Harley d. 1370 and John Darras d. 1408 and was of a later generation
<than the Joan who married Owen ap Gruffudd.
Corbet, and very likely a daughter of Sir Robert Corbet of Morton, whose IPM
C135/243/7) is dated 49 Edw III. She is shown as such in the 1623 Visitation of
Shropshire (pages 134-5), and as sister of Sir Roger and Sir Fulk Corbet, the
father of Katherina Elizabeth, wife of John, Lord of Mowddwy.
The fact that she and her husband made repeated settlements of their
interest in the old Corbet manors of Yockleton and Shelve in Shropshire, in favour
of Fulke Corbet and his (older) brother Roger, suggests that Joan may have
acquired these manors as a marriage portion.
(The two manors had been found in 1322 to have belonged to Peter Corbet and
his wife Beatrice, and to have descended to his brother John (b.1298), son of
Peter Corbet, father of the deceased. The 1322 IPM of Peter is conveniently
available on a2a at Shropshire, More papers, 1037/2/6).
Sir Robert Harley and Joan had only one legitimate child, so far as I can
tell, namely Alice/Alesia, the wife of Hamon de Peshale. Though her legitimacy
had been disputed, it was ultimately confirmed after enquiry by the local
bishop, as Paul Reed showed some years ago on SGM. Alice's daughter and heiress
Elizabeth Peshale is shown in the visitation as marrying (i) John Grendon and
(ii) Sir Richard Lacon. It was by this marriage that the manor of Willey (a
Harley inheritance) came into the Lacon family.
I do not think that Sir Robert Corbet's wife was Elizabeth le Strange.
Instead I believe that Sir Robert, the father of Sir Roger and Sir Fulk, married
Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Giles de Erdington, lord of Shawbury (see PRO,
C143/332/5), who brought Shawbury into the Corbet family as the result of her
marriage. C 143/369/9 is the record of a licence to Sir Robert and his wife
Elizabeth to settle Shawbury on themselves for life, remainder to their son Fulk
and his heirs male, remainder to Roger their son and the heirs of his body.
Sir Robert Corbet's IPM is at C 143/243/7. dated 49 Edw III.
The Joan ?Corbet, who I suggested may have been the wife of Owain ap
Griffith/Gruffyd de la Pole, was certainly of an earlier generation, as Henry
Sutliff points out. The idea is that she was a daughter of the Sir Robert Corbet of
Morton whose IPM is dated 28 Edw III (C133/98/30). He was of the household of
Hamo Le Strange in 1271: See CPR for 20th March in that year, so a Corbet/Le
Strange marriage at that period is very possible.
However the secondary sources abstracted in Stirnet
(_http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/cc4aq/corbet01.htm#linklo_
(http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/cc4aq/corbet01.htm#linklo) )
are inconclusive.
The Shropshire visitation does show a Sir Robert Corbet of Morton as
marrying:-
(i) Katherine, daughter of John Lord Strange of "Knokinge et Midle", and
(ii) Matilda of Tideshall (whose IPM is in the PRO.
But it does not show any daughter of this Sir Robert.
In a separate post I will give details of the descent of Sir John de Burgh
and of the Lords of Mowddwy, as appearing from the Shropshire visitation
MM
WJho...@aol.com
Owen ap Gruffyd, Lord of La Pole, Prince of /Powys/
the other Joan, the wife of
Sir Robert /Harley/ , Knt
were at least one if not up to three generations apart.
If Joan, the wife of Sir Robert Harley is also the daughter of
Sir Robert /Corbet/ of Moreton Corbet by
Elizabeth le /Strange/
then this Joan was born between 1322 and 1350
The other Joan, known to be the wife of Owain, was born by 1278 and already
his widow in 1295
So the person who queried the connection should realize this is referring to
two seperate woman, both known to be named Joan, but whose parentage is in
conflict.
Will Johnson
Clagett, Brice
> This comments on Michael Miller's most interesting post
> of January 23.
>
> According to Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, Bleddyn ap Cynfyn
> p. 31, the descent has yet another more generation in it than
Michael concludes, and two more than Camden. Bartrum's version is:
> 1. Gruffudd ap Gwenwynwyn, c. 1200-1286, m. Hawise
> Le Strange.
>
> 2. William de la Pole.
>
> 3. Gruffudd.
>
> 4. Wilcock Mawddwy, or William de la Pole, living 1352. (For
> this Bartrum cites G.T.O. Bridgeman, History of the Princes
> of South Wales p. 289 -- a book which I own, but I can't find
> it just now.
>
> 5. John, sheriff of Shropshire 1388, d. 1403.
>
> 6a. Fulk, b. 1390, d.c. 1414 s.p.
> 6b. Elizabeth, m. Sir [sic, I think] Hugh Burgh, Lord of
> Mawddwy, d. 1430.
>
> If the 1200 date estimated for the first Gruffudd's birth is
> accurate, then the above version produces quite long
> generations -- 38 years. Michael's version is longer still --
> 47 years -- and Camden's is 63.
>
> The above account gives no wife for William or Wilcock,
> but at Rhys ap Tewdr p. 7 Barttrum shows Margred,
> daughter of Thomas ap Llewellyn (and sister of Elen,
> mother of Owen Glendower), as marrying (1) Wilcock ap
> Gruffudd, with a cross-reference to Bleddyn ap Cynfyn
> p. 31, and (2) Tudor ap Goronwy, the eponymous ances-
> tor of the house of Tudor. If this is right, and if Margaret
was mother of Wilcock's son John, the four Burgh
> heiresses who brought Corbet manors to the Newport,
> Leighton, Lingen and Mitton families were half-third
> cousins of King Henry VII.
>
>
Millerf...@aol.com
I promised to give the details of the descent of the lordship of Mowddwy, as
derived from the 1623 Shropshire visitation, pages 59-60, where the pedigree
is unhelpfully listed as "Borough of Dinas Mowthwy".
1. Hugo Borough miles, lord of Burgh upon Sands = ... daughter of Mowbray
1.1 Guido Burghe "qui vendidit baroniam de Burgh domino Darcy"
1.2 William Borough, lord of Midleton, knight
1.2.1 Hugo Borough, son and heir
1.2.1.1 John Burgh who married a daughter of Warde of Westmorland and had
issue
1.2.1.2. Hugo Borough, knight Lord of Dinas Mowddwy, Treasurer of England
+ Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of John ap William, lord of
Mowthwy: see below
[his arms are given as azure a chevron ermine between three fleurs-de-lis
argent, with a date of 1425]
1.2.1.2.1 John de Borough, knight
+ Jane, daughter and sole heiress of William Clopton of
Clopton, knight
[the line continues with Sir John's four daughters and coheiresses, all as
shown in my earlier posts]
The descent of Elizabeth, wife of Hugo of Dinas Mowddwy, supra, is given on
the same pages of the visitation as follows:-
1. William "4 filius Griff/Gruffyd ap Gwynwyn/Gwenwynwyn/Wenunwen ap
Owen/Owain Keuliok (Kevelioc), dominus de Powis H.2"
+ Margaretta, daughter and heiress ot Thomas ap Llewelyn/Lluellin ap
Owen/Owain ap Meredith/Maredudd ap Owen/Owain ap Gruffyd ap Rees/Rhys ap
Gruffyd/ ap Rees/Rhys ap Tudor/Twddur. prince of South Wales.
1.1 John ap William, lord of Mowthwy
1.1.1 Elizabeth, daughter and heiress (as above).
As I observed in an earlier post, it seems clear that the visitation, in
common with Camden's Britannia, has omitted at least one generation in the
Mowddwy descent. William, son of Gruffyd ap Gwenwynwyn, was one may suppose of
full age in 1290 (the date of the carve-up of Southern Powis). Yet his supposed
son John only died in 1403.
We could perhaps bridge this gap by ascribing the parentage of John to
William ap Gruffyd's known son Gruffyd, who did homage, perhaps as an infant, on
20th July 1302. By 1313 he was old enough, and brave enough, to besiege the
castle of la Pole (Welshpool) held by John Cherleton, husband of his cousin
Hawise "Gadarn". And he was still alive in 1343, when Sir John Cherleton the
elder was holding his wife Matilda prisoner at la Pole: see CPR for 6th November
in that year.
My conclusion would be that John (d.1403) was probably the son of this
Gruffyd. However, Brice Clagett, in private correspondence, proposes to insert a
second William ap Gruffyd, alias Willcock", as the father of John.
I would be glad to know whether colleagues have any views on this matter. It
is hard to suppose that Camden, who supervised the 1623 visitation, could
have overlooked two whole generations of the lords of Mowddwy, innit?
By the way, I have not yet seen evidence that there was a Hugh Burgh who was
treasurer of England, nor that there was one who was lord of Burgh on the
Sands: I had thought that Burgh was an Engayne/Trivers estate, inherited by the
Morvilles,
There is however a record in CPR of the appointment of a Hugh de Burgh as
treasurer of the exchequer of Dublin, dated 2nd March 1340. I wonder whether
this Hugh has been confused by Camden with a later Hugh?
MM
Millerf...@aol.com
the 1623 Shropshire Visitation, has omitted not one but two generations of the
lords of Mawddwy. The confusion in Camden's mind has I believe arisen from
the fact that in the 14th century there were two distinct lords of Mawddwy who
could properly be described as " Gwilym ap Gruffydd".
Of these the elder was alive and presumably of full age in 1290, and was
surely dead in the early 1300s, when his son Gruffydd was suing for possession
of his lands of Mawddy.. But there must I think have been a younger William ap
Gruffydd, also lord of Mawddwy, who would (I suppose) have been the first
William's grandson, and who would I now think have been the father of John,
Fulke Corbet's son in law.
We should bear in mind that in the "carve-up" of 1290 Mowddwy had been
settled on Owain ap Gruffyd'ds younger brother William in tail male- he then
presumably being of full age.
Comparing the Shropshire visitation with the biography of Owen Glendower in
the Oxford DNB, we can see that the mother of Glendower was the sister of the
wife of a William ap Gruffydd, with an identical pedigree from ancient
Welsh princes. But Glendower was born in about 1359. It is I would think
impossible that he could have had a first cousin born 40 years or more before him,
son of his mother's sister. So there must have been a younger William ap
Gruffyd a couple of generations remote from the "carve-up" beneficiary. So I now
believe that John (Fulke Corbet's son in law) must have been the son of this
younger William, and therefore a first cousin of his contemporary Owen Gle
ndower.
Thanks to Brice Clagett for his help in driving me to this conclusion.
MM
Tim Powys-Lybbe
>
> I promised to give the details of the descent of the lordship of
> Mowddwy, as derived from the 1623 Shropshire visitation, pages 59-60,
<snip of Brough pedigree of which I know nothing>
> It is hard to suppose that Camden, who supervised the 1623 visitation,
> could have overlooked two whole generations of the lords of Mowddwy,
> innit?
As ever it is very useful to have a look at the preface to each
visitation to see what documents they used for the book and for any
other gems. The introduction for this visitation goes on at enormous
length for some 40 pages but the following are relevant:
p. xiv
"It is well to remark that the Shropshire Visitation now before us does
not give us so accurately as we could desire the exact list of the
Heralds' Visitation; some of the pedigrees have been unquestionably
added from other sources, but it is also probable that some are
wanting."
p. xxi
"The Kings of Arms ... summon in all the Gentry ... there to give an
account unto them of their Family, Matches, Issues, Coats of Arms
belonging to them ... all which is registered or recorded in a Book
called the Visitation-Book for such and such a county..."
p. xxxvii
"We now come to consider the frequent errors observed in Visitation
pedigrees. We quite endorse what is said in the Chetham Society's vol.
lxxxviii., p. 40: "The pedigrees ought most assuredly to be received
with great caution, and few of them to be regarded as indisputably
correct unless tested by documentary evidence." This is simply the
result of unskilful or careless genealogists who, when preparing their
papers in anticipation of the heralds' Visitation, had not the necessary
documentary evidences supplies to them. The wills and other sources of
information, now so accessible, enable us to supplement and correct
statements which they drew up in all honesty, from such materials as
they had at their command."
Elsewhere he notes that Camden died in November 1623 and that the
visitation was done by Robert Tresswell, Somerset Herald and Augustin
Vincent, Rouge Croix (Pursuivant). So Camden was unlikely to have done
much supervising.
As he comments the volume was not prepared from the official record of
the visitation: the heralds simply did not allow these to be copied
until around 1970. The volume was made from other documents most copies
of the visitation but with amendments and additions.
Is it surprising then, that there are errors?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/