Fw: Barons
odie
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: Barons
Excuse me, no one said it was BIG DEAL. You really shouldn't have an
additude like this to people who are in search of Genealogy. Have you
talked this way to the other TEN MILLION PEOPLE?????
Are you part of the other BILLION people who aren't related to EDWARD III,
King of England? Is that why is isn't a BIG DEAL to you?
Besides your the one who told me to POST AWAY.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 11:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Barons
>
>
> > Yes, tens of millions of people are descended from King Edward III.
> >
> > Not a big deal.
> > --
> >
> > D. Spencer Hines
> >
> > Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> >
> > Report On the Course of Instruction
> >
> > "Our object is not to teach that which is peculiar to any one of the
> > professions, but to lay the foundation which is common to them all....
> > The student must be thrown upon the resources of his own mind.
> > Without this, the whole apparatus of libraries, and instruments and
> > specimens, and lectures, and teachers, will be insufficient to secure
> > distinguished excellence. The scholar must form himself by his own
> > exertions. The advantages furnished by residence in a college can do
> > little more than stimulate and aid his personal efforts."
> >
> > Faculty of Yale College ---- 1828
> >
> > "odie" <od...@pathwaynet.com> wrote in message
> > news:00d601bf60a4$33cf7440$56cb2ed8@default...
> >
> > | I learned that my 9th Great Grandmother descended from 10 of the
> > Barons who forced King John to sign the Magna Charta.
> > | Richard DeClare, Gilbert DeClare, Hugh Bigod, Roger Bigod, Saher De
> > Quincy, Robert FitzWalter,
> > | John De Lacy, William Malet, Robert De Vere & John FitzRobert.
> > | Her name wa Mary WODELL, daughter of William WODELL.
> > | I haven't all my material here with me at this moment. I do know
> > that she decended from Sir Nicholas WODHULL who married Elizabeth PARR
> > cousin to Catherine PARR, one of Henry VIII's wife.
> > | Thought I would share this. The line goes back to EDWARD III King
> > of England.
> >
> >
>
D. Spencer Hines
Middle Ages. Why did you give this new thread the title "Barons"?
2. Yes, now ---- temper, temper.
3. Did you want to know something? Did you wish to initiate a
discussion on some worthy topic?
4. Or were you just delighted and eager to tell us that you are
descended from King Edward III [1312-1377] and his wife Philippa de
Hainault [1310-1369], like tens of millions of us, dear.
5. So far you are just treading water. But you "thought you would
share this."
6. Delightful.
7. Your Move.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Report On the Course of Instruction
"Our object is not to teach that which is peculiar to any one of the
professions, but to lay the foundation which is common to them all....
The student must be thrown upon the resources of his own mind.
Without this, the whole apparatus of libraries, and instruments and
specimens, and lectures, and teachers, will be insufficient to secure
distinguished excellence. The scholar must form himself by his own
exertions. The advantages furnished by residence in a college can do
little more than stimulate and aid his personal efforts."
Faculty of Yale College ---- 1828
"odie" <od...@pathwaynet.com> wrote in message
news:010101bf60a7$f0186a00$56cb2ed8@default...
|
|
|
| Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 11:58 PM
| Subject: Re: Barons
|
|
| Excuse me, no one said it was BIG DEAL. You really shouldn't have an
| attitude [sic] like this to people who are in search of Genealogy.
| > > | Her name wa [sic] Mary WODELL, daughter of William WODELL.
| > > | I haven't all my material here with me at this moment. I do
know
| > > that she decended [sic] from Sir Nicholas WODHULL who married
odie
helping those who also are in search. I didn't know that this was a list
to belittle people. I don't understand why certain ones can't just enjoy
the fact that there are other people interested in the history.
This is not a game of Chest or anyones move, you make no sense at all.
No wonder there isn't many people on this list, it seems you dominate it.
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Report On the Course of Instruction
"Our object is not to teach that which is peculiar to any one of the
professions, but to lay the foundation which is common to them all....
The student must be thrown upon the resources of his own mind.
Without this, the whole apparatus of libraries, and instruments and
specimens, and lectures, and teachers, will be insufficient to secure
distinguished excellence. The scholar must form himself by his own
exertions. The advantages furnished by residence in a college can do
little more than stimulate and aid his personal efforts."
Faculty of Yale College ---- 1828
"Paul C. Reed" <rp...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:ykzg4.1154$JP5....@news.uswest.net...
|
| odie wrote in message <015601bf60b0$c04f5b40$56cb2ed8@default>...
| >I thought that this mailing list was about people doing genealogy
and
| >helping those who also are in search. I didn't know that this was
a list
| >to belittle people. I don't understand why certain ones can't
just enjoy
| >the fact that there are other people interested in the history.
| >This is not a game of Chest or anyones move, you make no sense at
all.
|
|
| There are many helpful people on this list, and we try to help all
as we
| can, not being critical of an individual's skills or experience.
|
| As Nat has posted, please tell us who the immigrant ancestor is that
you
| trace these descents from. This is the place many of these descents
fail,
| so it is of the greatest importance to have this knowledge so we can
help
| you with the other material.
|
| Paul
Paul C. Reed
Denis Beauregard
soc.genealogy.medieval:
>I thought that this mailing list was about people doing genealogy and
>helping those who also are in search. I didn't know that this was a list
>to belittle people. I don't understand why certain ones can't just enjoy
>the fact that there are other people interested in the history.
>This is not a game of Chest or anyones move, you make no sense at all.
>No wonder there isn't many people on this list, it seems you dominate it.
This list is about medieval genealogy, that is, before 1500.
Very few lines get before 1500 out of nobility.
In my case (my Beauregard line that changed to Beauregard alias Jarret
circa 1835 and to Jarret alone in 1642), I went back to 1471 from a
not noble line, but thanks to land rented from the local noble.
But very few lines are like this one, which mean usually enough
records survived to time and wars in Europe, and even existed
(church records before 1600 are very casual).
On the other side, I descend from Philippe II king of France. And
in other lines, I have other noble ancestry. So, I can't avoid
associating nobility to medieval ancestry.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ www.genealogie.com (fr)
|\ soon: www.francogene.com (eng)
/ |
oo oo www.cam.org Accès Internet, Montréal
Kevan L. Barton
I've a problem sorting which line and thought you all could help.
According to the AF, Teresa of Castile, b. c1070 and married Henry I of
Burgundy, was the daughter of Ximena Nunez de Guzman (wife of Alfonso VI).
Her grandparents are Nuno Rodriguez De Guzman and Ximena Ordonez.
According to Stuart's "Royalty for Commoners", 3rd edition, her mother was
Zaida, Princess of Seville, 1069-1091. Zaida was also the wife of Alfonso
VI. It also states that Zaida was known as Maria, Isabel, and Ximena.
Are these ladies indeed the same?
Why the changes in names?
Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Kevan
Nathaniel Taylor
Sigh. Stuart and the AF are both wrong, but the AF is slightly less wrong,
this time. Todd, care to offer a dejanews pointer to your Jimena Muñoz
AT?
Nat Taylor
Todd A. Farmerie
> According to the AF, Teresa of Castile, b. c1070 and married Henry I of
> Burgundy, was the daughter of Ximena Nunez de Guzman (wife of Alfonso VI).
> Her grandparents are Nuno Rodriguez De Guzman and Ximena Ordonez.
Don't trust AF for medieval material. Alfonso VI and Ximena were never
married. Likewise this traditional link to Nuno Rodriguez de Guzman (sic)
and Ximena Ordonez has long passed from favor. Jimena Munoz, Teresa's
mother, has most recently been suggested as daughter of Munio Gonzalez,
Count of Castile, and paternal aunt of the founding Lara brothers, Pedro and Rodrigo Gonzalez.
> According to Stuart's "Royalty for Commoners", 3rd edition, her mother was
> Zaida, Princess of Seville, 1069-1091. Zaida was also the wife of Alfonso
> VI. It also states that Zaida was known as Maria, Isabel, and Ximena.
This is another pathetic example of a flaw which existed in the 2nd edition of this source which was pointed out to the author in reviews and yet not corrected in the 3rd. Zaida was also known
as Isabel, but never Maria nor Jimena. Whether she was actually wife of Alfonso or just another mistress is still subject to debate. It is certain, however, that she was NOT mother of Teresa.
> Are these ladies indeed the same?
No.
> Why the changes in names?
Zaida was named Isabel at the time of her baptism. Jimena is a distinct mistress of the kind, while Maria has no historical basis whatsoever (I have no idea where Stuart got this name, but
there was no Maria among Alfonso's known women).
Alfonso was first engaged to the daughter of William the Conqueror, but she wasted away from mortification over being married to Alfonso, and the marriage never took place. He then married
Agnes, daughter of the Count of Aquitaine, but had no children. They were divorced based on consanguity (which loosely translates as "she had no children so I can get rid of her because she's
related to me"), and he then married Constance of Burgundy. Next came a Bertha, then Isabel (then perhaps another Isabel, but I don'tthink so), then a final wife whose name escapes me right
now (? Beatrice). He also had mistresses Jimena Munoz and Zaida/Isabel (who is perhaps the same as the second, or the only Queen Isabel). By these he had:
i. Elvira, m.1 Raymond of Toulouse, m.2 Fernando Fernandez (illeg. by Jimena)
ii. Teresa, m. Henry of Burgundy (illeg. by Jimena)
iii. Urraca, m.1 Raymond of Burgundy, m.2 Alfonso I of Aragon (by Constance)
iv. Sancho, d.v.p. (illeg. by Zaida, perhaps legitimated by their subsequent marriage)
v. Elvira, m. Roger II of Sicily (by Queen Isabel, perhaps Zaida)
vi. Sancha, m. Rodrigo Gonzalez de Lara (by Queen Isabel)
taf
Kevin Miller
Do you or anyone else have any Dates for Jimena Munoz & her Parents?
Thank You,
Sincerely, Kevin
Richard Ledyard
>ii. Teresa, m. Henry of Burgundy (illeg. by Jimena)
daughter in law of the Caliph of Sevilla." I believe this is the same
Teresa. I show her father in law as Henri of Burgundy, son of Robert "the
Old", but don't have an identity for her mother in law (Henri of Burgundy's
wife). I'd be curious as to her identity, if its available.
Dick Ledyard
Manoel Cesar Furtado
Todd A. Farmerie remarked:
> Zaida was named Isabel at the time of her baptism. Jimena is a distinct
mistress of the kind, while Maria has no historical >basis whatsoever (I
have no idea where Stuart got this name, but
> there was no Maria among Alfonso's known women).
Dear Todd,
The "Cronica Geral de Espanha de 1344"_critical edition of the portuguese
text by Luis Filipe Lindley_ says that Alfonso VI married to Zaida after she
was baptized and has changed her name to Maria:
"...E el rey lhe disse que lhe cõviinha de se tornar cristãa e ella disse
que o faria muy de grado... E elle fezea logo cristãa e casou com ella..".
Manoel Cesar Furtado
Paul C. Reed
Stuart's Royalty For Commoners.
Check the archives.
Manoel Cesar Furtado wrote in message
<000501bf620c$9e16fee0$08cffea9@usuario>...
Kevan L. Barton
Thank you all for the information you provided on my question. Paul is
correct in suggesting that I search the archives, but I was not aware of
what it was, or where it was until today.
I'm excited about this other source to go through.
Cheers,
Kevan
Todd A. Farmerie
That was a slip. I intended to say "Zaida was not . . ."
Teresa was daughter of Alfonso VI by Jimena Munoz, and married Henry of Burgundy, son of Henry
of Burgundy and his wife, whose name is not known.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> Todd A. Farmerie remarked:
> > Zaida was named Isabel at the time of her baptism. Jimena is a distinct
> mistress of the kind, while Maria has no historical >basis whatsoever (I
> have no idea where Stuart got this name, but
> > there was no Maria among Alfonso's known women).
>
> Dear Todd,
>
> The "Cronica Geral de Espanha de 1344"_critical edition of the portuguese
> text by Luis Filipe Lindley_ says that Alfonso VI married to Zaida after she
> was baptized and has changed her name to Maria:
> "...E el rey lhe disse que lhe cõviinha de se tornar cristãa e ella disse
> que o faria muy de grado... E elle fezea logo cristãa e casou com ella..".
Well, this would be where he got it, but it still has no historical basis (her baptismal name
being Isabel).
taf
Manoel Cesar Furtado
> Well, this would be where he got it, but it still has no historical basis
(her baptismal name
> being Isabel).
What's the source before the "Cronica" for this baptismal name?
Manoel