The Khazars and the Jewish Question

[samsloan]

The Khazars and the Jewish Question

Sam Sloan

The Thirteenth Tribe is a ground breaking work of great importance, if
only because it has shaped the way that people think about The Jews.

It is based on the theory that European Jews, Ashkenazi Jews from
Europe, are not descendants of Abraham but rather are the remnants of
a tribe, the Khazars, that converted to Judaism in the Eighth Century.

We know little about the Khazars, but we do know for certain that they
existed and that they were Jewish. The Jews, Russians, Georgians and
Armenians all wrote about the Khazars, but the Khazars left no
literature, no books. This was perhaps because the Khazars existed
during the Dark Ages, as period from which few books survive today.

As to how the Khazars became Jewish, the story, often told is they
previously had what we call today a Pagan religion. Their King wanted
to adopt a more modern religion but he wanted to avoid the religious
wars that were going on on all sides. So, he summoned a Christian
Priest, a Jewish Rabbi and a Muslim Mullah.

He asked the Christian priest, “Which is better, the Muslims or the
Jews? The Christian replied, “The Jews are better than the Muslims.”

Then, he asked the Muslim, “Which are better, the Christians or the
Jews?” The Muslim replied, “The Jews are better than the Christians?”

Therefore, the King decided that henceforth all of his subjects would
be Jewish. He send emissaries to Baghdad to bring back great scholars
of Judaism. They came and taught the people the principles of the
religion.
It is more or less an accepted historical fact that these things
happened. However, it was believed that by the time that Genghis Khan
swept through the area in the 1220s, killing almost everybody, the
Khazars had already been wiped out. Scholars believe that the Khazars
had disappeared by the Tenth Century.

Koestler's thesis is that while the Khazars as a unified tribe may
have disappeared, their descendants survived, only that they were no
longer known as the Khazars. Instead, these people are now Eastern
European Jews and they continue to live in the same places where the
Khazars lived such as in Kiev and Odessa.

If you want to learn more about the Khazars, there are many places you
can go. There are books, magazine articles and studies devoted to
them. You can also do an Internet search that will produce many
references to the Khazars and to the question of whether the European
Jews of today are the same people as the Khazars.

I happen to believe that the theory about the Khazars in true. I will
explain why:

First, it must be said that this is a hot topic. Almost every person
who had studied and written about this subject has had an ulterior
motive. They are not seekers of the truth. They either want to prove
that the Jews now living in Israel are truly descendants of Abraham,
or else they want to prove that they are not and thus have no right to
the land there. The book was banned in Israel for many years. Although
it is often said that this book has been refuted, it has not been
refuted nor could it be. No Jewish scholar has seriously addressed the
questions raised by this book. Mostly, they just ignore it. However,
many non-religious Jews have adopted it.

The same is the case of DNA studies of this subject. For example, not
long ago a new study came out saying that it shows that all Jewish
women today are descended from four women.

This created a tremendous splash in the news, because it was said that
this proves that the Jews are a united race with a common origin.

That was until somebody did the math and figured out that these four
women all lived about five thousand years ago, which was before
Abraham lived and before Judaism came into existence. Also, the four
women probably did not live at the same time and probably did not know
each other, so this if anything proves the contrary, that the Jews are
not the same people.

Another even more recent DNA study is said to show that all Jews have
a common origin in the Middle East.

The thing wrong with this is: Not only do all European Jews have a
common origin in the Middle East, but all European people of any kind
have a common origin in the Middle East. Look at the map. In order to
walk out of Africa, you had to cross what is now Israel.

Here is my proof that Koestler's Theory (which he did not originate
but merely popularized) is most likely true: The first step is to
prove that the official story in the Bible could not be true.

The Hebrew Bible places Abraham's birth 1,948 years after the
Creation. This is roughly 3,700 years ago or 1700 BC.

Since a male generation averages 30 years, this means that Abraham
lived 123 generations ago.

If all or almost all Jews alive today are descendants of Abraham,
which is what Jewish scholars claim, then the men would all share the
same Y-chromosome DNA type or haplogroup.

Since they do not, this shows that this story is not true.

Abraham had two sons, Ismail by his servant Hagar and Isaac by his
wife Sarah. According to both the Bible and the Quran, Ismail is the
father of all Arabs and Isaac is the father of all Jews.

If true, the Arabs and the Jews would all belong to the same
haplogroup but again DNA testing shows that this is not true.

Abraham found a girl named Rebecca to be the wife of Isaac. She gave
birth to Jacob. This is where it gets interesting.

Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, took two wives, Leah and
Rachel. They in turn gave him each of their hand maidens, Bilhah and
Zilpah. Jacob had sons by each of these four women, six sons by Leah
and two sons each by Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah, for a total of twelve
sons in all. Since the name of Jacob had been changed to Israel, this
is the reason why the Jews are called “The children of Israel”.

Each son founded a tribe and this is why there were 12 tribes in
Israel.

The most important of these 12 sons eventually turned out to be Judah,
the 4th son of Leah. The members of the tribe of Judah are called the
Jews.

The fact that American Jews seem to ignore because is causes them some
embarrassment is that the Jews are all descended from one woman too.
Her name was Tamar. According to the Bible, she sold herself as a
prostitute to Judah.

Before he died, Jacob said that Judah would become the leader of his
people and, indeed, the Jews of today have that name because they are
of the Tribe of Judah.
Judah first had three sons: Er, Onan and Shelah. Judah took a wife for
Er named Tamar. However, Er was wicked and God killed him.
In those days, there was a custom which still exists in Arab countries
and in other countries of the Middle East that when a man dies and
leaves a widow, his next surviving brother is supposed to marry the
widow and become her husband.
Accordingly, Onan was obliged to marry Tamar, the widow of Er.
However, in such a case, the eldest son from this marriage was
considered to be not the son of the new husband, but rather the son of
the husband who died. In this way, it was thought that the seed of the
deceased man would be carried forward into the coming generation.
Onan did not like this. He did not want a child from Tamar to be the
child of his deceased brother, Er. For this reason, when Onan had sex
with Tamar, he pulled out at the last moment. Onan did not allow his
seed to go into Tamar. Instead, he spilled his seed upon the ground.
Onan did this because he not want Tamar to become pregnant.
God saw this and saw that Onan had disobeyed the will of God. This
seed is not supposed to go into the ground. Rather, it is intended by
God to go into a woman. Therefore, God struck Onan dead, too. This
made Tamar a widow a second time.
The third son was Shelah. However, Shelah was still a young boy, too
young to be married. Judah was afraid that his third son Shelah would
die, too. Therefore, he told Tamar to go back to her father's house
and wait there and when Shelah became old enough, Judah would marry
Tamar to him.
Tamar went back to her father's house and waited.
After the passage of some time, Tamer noticed that Shelah had grown
up. Nevertheless, Tamar had not been given to Shelah as a wife. Judah
had not kept his promise. Tamar was tired of waiting.
Tamar found out that Judah was going to go to Timnath to shear his
sheep. She took off her widow's garment and instead put on a veil to
cover her face. She went and sat by the road to Timnath.
Judah came walking by. Because the face of Tamar was covered, he
believed that she was a prostitute. Judah did not know that actually
this was his daughter-in-law Tamar. He asked her what was her price
for sex. She asked him how much he would give her. He said that he
would send her a kid from his flock of sheep. She then asked him to
give her something as security for this promise. She asked him for his
signet, his bracelets and his staff. Judah agreed to this. He gave
Tamar his signet, his bracelets and his staff and then had sex with
Tamar. Tamar became pregnant.
After the sex was finished, Judah left. Tamar left also. She took off
her veil and put back on her widow's clothing.
Later, Judah sent a man with a kid from his flock of sheep to give to
the woman he had seen by the road and to recover his signet, his
bracelets and his staff. However, when his messenger came to that
spot, no woman was there. He asked the men of that area what had
happened to the prostitute who had been sitting there. Those men said
that there had been no such woman. There had never been a prostitute
in that place. Judah was dismayed by this development.
Three months later, word came to Judah that his daughter-in-law had
been like a prostitute and was now pregnant. Judah ordered that Tamar
be brought before him to be burned up.
When Tamar was brought, she said to Judah, "The man who has made me
pregnant is the owner of these things." Then Tamar produced the
signet, the bracelets and the staff which belonged to Judah.
With that, Judah acknowledged that these things were his and said that
she was more righteous than he because he had not kept his promise to
her by not giving Tamar to Shelah as a wife. Therefore, Tamar was
spared.
Tamar gave birth to twins. The name of these twins were Pharez and
Zarah.
The son of Pharez was Hezron. The son of Hezron was Ram. The son of
Ram was Amminadab. The son of Amminadab was Nahshon. The son of
Nahshon was Salmon. The son of Salmon was Boaz. The son of Boaz was
Obed. The son of Obed was Jesse. The son of Jesse was David. The son
of David was Solomon. The son of Solomon was Rehoboam. The son of
Rehoboam was Abijah. The son of Abijah was Asa. The son of Asa was
Jehoshaphat. The son of Jehoshaphat was Jehoram. The son of Jehoram
was Uzziah. The son of Uzziah was Jotham. The son of Jotham was Ahaz.
The son of Ahaz was Hezekiah. The son of Hezekiah was Manasseh. The
son of Manasseh was Amon. The son of Amon was Josiah. The son of
Josiah was Jeconiah. The son of Jeconiah was Shealtiel. The son of
Shealtiel was Zerubbabel. The son of Zerubbabel was Abiud. The son of
Abiud was Eliakim. The son of Eliakim was Azor. The son of Azor was
Zadok. The son of Zadok was Achim. The son of Achim was Eliud. The son
of Eliud was Eleazar. The son of Eleazar was Matthan. The son of
Matthan was Jacob. The son of Jacob was Joseph and Joseph was the
husband of Mary the mother of Jesus.
So, from the illicit relationship between Tamar and Judah, three of
the most important people in history were born: David, Solomon and
Jesus.
This story can be found in the Bible in Genesis 38 and 49, Matthew 1
and Luke 3.
This story is important in many ways. It establishes the genealogy of
the Jewish race, because it is fair to say that all of the Jews today
are descended from Pharez and Zarah, the two bastard twin sons of
Tamar. (The only other surviving son of Judah was Shelah, about whom
nothing more is said in the Bible.)
Just as all men pass their Y-DNA to their sons, women have
Mitochondrial DNA or mtDNA which they pass on to their children, both
male and female. Since under Jewish law, a person is Jewish if his
mother is Jewish, this means that all or most Jews should carry the
MtDNA of Tamar.

This is not true either.

Although Tamar is virtually ignored by American Jews because she sold
herself as a prostitute to Judah, Russian Jews greatly respect her.
Tamara is one of the most common Russian names, although a name that
Americans rarely give to their daughters. Even hookers deserve
respect!

Although Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Tamar all lived about 3,700 years
ago, this is relatively recently in the genealogical time frame. Since
a female generation is 23 years, Tamar lived about 161 generations
ago.

It is believed that around ten thousand years ago is when most groups
had established themselves where they are today. Mass movements are
rare. Even the distance from Egypt to Israel is only a distance of 230
miles.

The traditional view, as described in older books, that what followed
was the Diaspora or “the Wandering Jew”. Ten of the twelve tribes were
lost. The rest tried to stay together. When they were driven from one
country, they would move to the next. They were carried by the Muslims
across North Africa and entered Spain by Gibraltar. In Moorish Spain,
they were treated with respect and did jobs the Muslims were
prohibited from doing, such as loaning money with interest. When
Ferdinand and Isabella took over Spain in 1492, both the Muslims and
the Jews were driven out. The Muslims went back to North Africa but
the Jews went on to France. Later, the Jews were driven out of France
and England and wound up in Germany, Poland and Russia, where they
remained until World War II, when they were either killed or driven
out by the Nazis and they finally reached The Promised Land: America!

This is the traditional view by the Jews to explain how they got to
where they are today.

However, the view of Arthur Koestler who himself was Jewish is that
none of these mass movements of people happened at all. Rather, the
Jews stayed in exactly the same place where they have been all along
because the Eastern European Jews are the Khazars. They are the same
people. Just their name has been changed.

Which is more logical: The Traditional Jewish view or Arthur
Koestler's theory?

Arthur Koestler was born a Jew in Budapest, Hungary on 5 September
1905. Like many Jews, he did not follow the religion or believe in it.
He was equally fluent in Hungarian and German. He later lived in
Palestine for five years and learned Hebrew and Yiddish. He wrote more
than forty books. By far the most famous book and the only one really
remembered is The Thirteenth Tribe.

He said that he wrote The Thirteenth Tribe because he "was convinced
that if he could prove that the bulk of Eastern European Jews (the
ancestors of today's Ashkenazim) were descended from the Khazars, the
racial basis for anti-Semitism would be removed and anti-Semitism
itself could disappear". The book however has had the opposite effect.
The book has been used by opponents of Judaism argue that most Jews
are not really Jews and thus have no right to the land of Israel. On
the other hand, non-religious Jews have accepted it.

Arthur Koestler committed suicide on 3 March 1983 in London because he
was suffering with a terminal case of Parkinson's Disease.

Sam Sloan
Bronx New York
USA
April 10, 2012


http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586

[Sam Sloan]

The Khazars and the Jewish Question

Sam Sloan

The Thirteenth Tribe is a ground breaking work of great importance, if
only because it has shaped the way that people think about The Jews.

It is based on the theory that European Jews, Ashkenazi Jews from
Europe, are not descendants of Abraham but rather are the remnants of
a tribe, the Khazars, that converted to Judaism in the Eighth Century.

We know little about the Khazars, but we do know for certain that they
existed and that they were Jewish. The Jews, Russians, Georgians and
Armenians all wrote about the Khazars, but the Khazars left no
literature, no books. This was perhaps because the Khazars existed

during the Dark Ages, a period from which few books survive today.

As to how the Khazars became Jewish, the story, often told, is they

I happen to believe that the theory about the Khazars is true. I will

Abraham found a girl named Rebecca to be the wife for Isaac. She gave

birth to Jacob. This is where it gets interesting.

Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, took two wives, Leah and
Rachel. They in turn gave him each of their hand maidens, Bilhah and
Zilpah. Jacob had sons by each of these four women, six sons by Leah
and two sons each by Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah, for a total of twelve
sons in all. Since the name of Jacob had been changed to Israel, this
is the reason why the Jews are called “The children of Israel”.

Each son founded a tribe and this is why there were 12 tribes in Israel.

The most important of these 12 sons eventually turned out to be Judah,
the 4th son of Leah. The members of the tribe of Judah are called the
Jews.

A fact that American Jews seem to ignore because it causes them some

male and female. Since, under Jewish law, a person is Jewish if his

mother is Jewish, this means that all or most Jews should carry the
MtDNA of Tamar.

They do not so this is not true either.

Although Tamar is virtually ignored by American Jews because she sold
herself as a prostitute to Judah, Russian Jews greatly respect her.
Tamara is one of the most common Russian names, although a name that
Americans rarely give to their daughters. Even hookers deserve
respect!

Although Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Tamar all lived about 3,700 years
ago, this is relatively recently in the genealogical time frame. Since
a female generation is 23 years, Tamar lived about 161 generations
ago.

It is believed that around ten thousand years ago is when most human

[Denis Beauregard]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 10:26:49 -0700, Sam Sloan <samh...@gmail.com>
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>The same is the case of DNA studies of this subject. For example, not
>long ago a new study came out saying that it shows that all Jewish
>women today are descended from four women.
>
>This created a tremendous splash in the news, because it was said that
>this proves that the Jews are a united race with a common origin.
>
>That was until somebody did the math and figured out that these four
>women all lived about five thousand years ago, which was before
>Abraham lived and before Judaism came into existence. Also, the four
>women probably did not live at the same time and probably did not know
>each other, so this if anything proves the contrary, that the Jews are
>not the same people.

Actually, they lived at the same time !!! These are LINES, not DOTS,
so if you consider the one more recent woman, then there were
women descendant from the 3 other, so at that time, you have 4 women
with that mtDNA... Likely at some time, the 4 lines crossed each
other, i.e. you had descendants from 4 women living in a small area,
and more likely in many places...

As for proving that the bible is wrong, good luck !

If you believe, you will reject any proof.
If you don't believe, you already think the bible is not true...


I read somewhere a similar theory, maybe more recent. The author
said roughly the same thing for North-West Africa jews (Morrocco
and around area). I have a link. It is in French but you can look for
the author's name Shlomo Sand.

http://www.geostrategie.com/781/shlomo-sand-l%E2%80%99exil-du-peuple-juif-est-un-mythe/


Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur cédérom à 1780 - On CD-ROM to 1780

[jeremy.p...@vanderbilt.edu]

It is hard to say what the silliest thing in this post is. Beyond the
main subject of the post, there is the notion that this is by far
Koestler's most famous and important book, as opposed to the classic
Darkness at Noon, is rather hard to swallow.

I am impressed with using biblical literalism as convincing evidence,
such as the precise date of Abraham or the story of Tamar. This is
very 19th century; I have a quote on the origin of chess which gives a
precise date which supposedly corresponds to the Battle of Troy, the
same article giving an exact date for the invention of wine because
the date of Noah's Ark was precisely calculated. I have never met
anyone who still openly declared such things as true, and I live in
Nashville. Sam, how old do you think dinosaurs are? Newsflash - some
evidence has come in that the bible may not be taken as socialist
realism.

As to the theory in general, I have no particular opinion; although I
am myself of Ashkanazic descent, my DNA is not particularly important
to me. Although I am very much an admirer of Koestler, he is not the
person I would turn to for finding out answers to such a question. I
have heard vaguely about the "genetic bottleneck" for Ashkenazi Jews,
which is given as an explanation for certain rare diseases being much
more common within the group, and it is mildly interesting to
speculate about where it comes from; nowadays, one would look at the
DNA itself as giving the best clues. Koestler's book may be worth
reading, but your bizarre summary is hardly an effective argument for
reading it; if these were really the arguments Koestler was using, I
would dismiss it as the ramblings of a nut.

Jerry Spinrad

[samsloan]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586


On Apr 10, 1:02 pm, "jeremy.p.spin...@vanderbilt.edu"

Thank you for your comments.

But what point are you trying to make by saying that you are from
Nashville, the headquarters to Secular Humanism?

I am from Lynchburg Virginia, the place where the really nutty nuts
come from.

The place where they say that the kidnapping of my daughter Shamema
was justified by God and ordained and indeed commanded by Jesus.

If you have never met anybody who says that the Bible is exactly word-
for-word true, than you have not met the religious screwballs that I
have had to deal with every day, because almost everybody in Lynchburg
says that.

In Lynchburg, they say that the dinosaurs lived 4,000 years ago and as
proof they show "Dinosaur prints have been found along with human
footprints".

http://www.anusha.com/creation.htm

Where do you think the word "Lynch" came from anyway?

The Real Sam Sloan

[Wjhonson]

The wife of Boaz was Ruth a Moabite, and she was the ancestress of David and others.
This proves that the Jews did not consider a person a Jew based on their mother, but rather based on the parents *and* conversions.
So any number of yDNA and mtDNA lines could have introduced at various and sundry and many points in the lines.
You can still today convert to Judaism if you wish.

Case closed.



<<The son of

ahshon was Salmon. The son of Salmon was Boaz. The son of Boaz was

bed. The son of Obed was Jesse. The son of Jesse was David.>>





-----Original Message-----
From: samsloan <samh...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tue, Apr 10, 2012 9:49 am
Subject: The Khazars and the Jewish Question


The Khazars and the Jewish Question
Sam Sloan
The Thirteenth Tribe is a ground breaking work of great importance, if

nly because it has shaped the way that people think about The Jews.
It is based on the theory that European Jews, Ashkenazi Jews from

urope, are not descendants of Abraham but rather are the remnants of

tribe, the Khazars, that converted to Judaism in the Eighth Century.
We know little about the Khazars, but we do know for certain that they

xisted and that they were Jewish. The Jews, Russians, Georgians and

rmenians all wrote about the Khazars, but the Khazars left no

iterature, no books. This was perhaps because the Khazars existed

uring the Dark Ages, as period from which few books survive today.
As to how the Khazars became Jewish, the story, often told is they

reviously had what we call today a Pagan religion. Their King wanted

o adopt a more modern religion but he wanted to avoid the religious

ars that were going on on all sides. So, he summoned a Christian

riest, a Jewish Rabbi and a Muslim Mullah.
He asked the Christian priest, “Which is better, the Muslims or the

ews? The Christian replied, “The Jews are better than the Muslims.”
Then, he asked the Muslim, “Which are better, the Christians or the

ews?” The Muslim replied, “The Jews are better than the Christians?”
Therefore, the King decided that henceforth all of his subjects would

e Jewish. He send emissaries to Baghdad to bring back great scholars

f Judaism. They came and taught the people the principles of the

eligion.

t is more or less an accepted historical fact that these things

appened. However, it was believed that by the time that Genghis Khan

wept through the area in the 1220s, killing almost everybody, the

hazars had already been wiped out. Scholars believe that the Khazars

ad disappeared by the Tenth Century.
Koestler's thesis is that while the Khazars as a unified tribe may

ave disappeared, their descendants survived, only that they were no

onger known as the Khazars. Instead, these people are now Eastern

uropean Jews and they continue to live in the same places where the

hazars lived such as in Kiev and Odessa.
If you want to learn more about the Khazars, there are many places you

an go. There are books, magazine articles and studies devoted to

hem. You can also do an Internet search that will produce many

eferences to the Khazars and to the question of whether the European

ews of today are the same people as the Khazars.
I happen to believe that the theory about the Khazars in true. I will

xplain why:
First, it must be said that this is a hot topic. Almost every person

ho had studied and written about this subject has had an ulterior

otive. They are not seekers of the truth. They either want to prove

hat the Jews now living in Israel are truly descendants of Abraham,

r else they want to prove that they are not and thus have no right to

he land there. The book was banned in Israel for many years. Although

t is often said that this book has been refuted, it has not been

efuted nor could it be. No Jewish scholar has seriously addressed the

uestions raised by this book. Mostly, they just ignore it. However,

any non-religious Jews have adopted it.
The same is the case of DNA studies of this subject. For example, not

ong ago a new study came out saying that it shows that all Jewish

omen today are descended from four women.
This created a tremendous splash in the news, because it was said that

his proves that the Jews are a united race with a common origin.
That was until somebody did the math and figured out that these four

omen all lived about five thousand years ago, which was before

braham lived and before Judaism came into existence. Also, the four

omen probably did not live at the same time and probably did not know

ach other, so this if anything proves the contrary, that the Jews are

ot the same people.
Another even more recent DNA study is said to show that all Jews have

common origin in the Middle East.
The thing wrong with this is: Not only do all European Jews have a

ommon origin in the Middle East, but all European people of any kind

ave a common origin in the Middle East. Look at the map. In order to

alk out of Africa, you had to cross what is now Israel.
Here is my proof that Koestler's Theory (which he did not originate

ut merely popularized) is most likely true: The first step is to

rove that the official story in the Bible could not be true.
The Hebrew Bible places Abraham's birth 1,948 years after the

reation. This is roughly 3,700 years ago or 1700 BC.
Since a male generation averages 30 years, this means that Abraham

ived 123 generations ago.
If all or almost all Jews alive today are descendants of Abraham,

hich is what Jewish scholars claim, then the men would all share the

ame Y-chromosome DNA type or haplogroup.
Since they do not, this shows that this story is not true.
Abraham had two sons, Ismail by his servant Hagar and Isaac by his

ife Sarah. According to both the Bible and the Quran, Ismail is the

ather of all Arabs and Isaac is the father of all Jews.
If true, the Arabs and the Jews would all belong to the same

aplogroup but again DNA testing shows that this is not true.
Abraham found a girl named Rebecca to be the wife of Isaac. She gave

irth to Jacob. This is where it gets interesting.
Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, took two wives, Leah and

achel. They in turn gave him each of their hand maidens, Bilhah and

ilpah. Jacob had sons by each of these four women, six sons by Leah

nd two sons each by Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah, for a total of twelve

ons in all. Since the name of Jacob had been changed to Israel, this

s the reason why the Jews are called “The children of Israel”.
Each son founded a tribe and this is why there were 12 tribes in

srael.
The most important of these 12 sons eventually turned out to be Judah,

he 4th son of Leah. The members of the tribe of Judah are called the

ews.
The fact that American Jews seem to ignore because is causes them some

mbarrassment is that the Jews are all descended from one woman too.

er name was Tamar. According to the Bible, she sold herself as a

rostitute to Judah.
Before he died, Jacob said that Judah would become the leader of his

eople and, indeed, the Jews of today have that name because they are

f the Tribe of Judah.

udah first had three sons: Er, Onan and Shelah. Judah took a wife for

r named Tamar. However, Er was wicked and God killed him.

n those days, there was a custom which still exists in Arab countries

nd in other countries of the Middle East that when a man dies and

eaves a widow, his next surviving brother is supposed to marry the

idow and become her husband.

ccordingly, Onan was obliged to marry Tamar, the widow of Er.

owever, in such a case, the eldest son from this marriage was

onsidered to be not the son of the new husband, but rather the son of

he husband who died. In this way, it was thought that the seed of the

eceased man would be carried forward into the coming generation.

nan did not like this. He did not want a child from Tamar to be the

hild of his deceased brother, Er. For this reason, when Onan had sex

ith Tamar, he pulled out at the last moment. Onan did not allow his

eed to go into Tamar. Instead, he spilled his seed upon the ground.

nan did this because he not want Tamar to become pregnant.

od saw this and saw that Onan had disobeyed the will of God. This

eed is not supposed to go into the ground. Rather, it is intended by

od to go into a woman. Therefore, God struck Onan dead, too. This

ade Tamar a widow a second time.

he third son was Shelah. However, Shelah was still a young boy, too

oung to be married. Judah was afraid that his third son Shelah would

ie, too. Therefore, he told Tamar to go back to her father's house

nd wait there and when Shelah became old enough, Judah would marry

amar to him.

amar went back to her father's house and waited.

fter the passage of some time, Tamer noticed that Shelah had grown

p. Nevertheless, Tamar had not been given to Shelah as a wife. Judah

ad not kept his promise. Tamar was tired of waiting.

amar found out that Judah was going to go to Timnath to shear his

heep. She took off her widow's garment and instead put on a veil to

over her face. She went and sat by the road to Timnath.

udah came walking by. Because the face of Tamar was covered, he

elieved that she was a prostitute. Judah did not know that actually

his was his daughter-in-law Tamar. He asked her what was her price

or sex. She asked him how much he would give her. He said that he

ould send her a kid from his flock of sheep. She then asked him to

ive her something as security for this promise. She asked him for his

ignet, his bracelets and his staff. Judah agreed to this. He gave

amar his signet, his bracelets and his staff and then had sex with

amar. Tamar became pregnant.

fter the sex was finished, Judah left. Tamar left also. She took off

er veil and put back on her widow's clothing.

ater, Judah sent a man with a kid from his flock of sheep to give to

he woman he had seen by the road and to recover his signet, his

racelets and his staff. However, when his messenger came to that

pot, no woman was there. He asked the men of that area what had

appened to the prostitute who had been sitting there. Those men said

hat there had been no such woman. There had never been a prostitute

n that place. Judah was dismayed by this development.

hree months later, word came to Judah that his daughter-in-law had

een like a prostitute and was now pregnant. Judah ordered that Tamar

e brought before him to be burned up.

hen Tamar was brought, she said to Judah, "The man who has made me

regnant is the owner of these things." Then Tamar produced the

ignet, the bracelets and the staff which belonged to Judah.

ith that, Judah acknowledged that these things were his and said that

he was more righteous than he because he had not kept his promise to

er by not giving Tamar to Shelah as a wife. Therefore, Tamar was

pared.

amar gave birth to twins. The name of these twins were Pharez and

arah.

he son of Pharez was Hezron. The son of Hezron was Ram. The son of

am was Amminadab. The son of Amminadab was Nahshon. The son of

ahshon was Salmon. The son of Salmon was Boaz. The son of Boaz was

bed. The son of Obed was Jesse. The son of Jesse was David. The son

f David was Solomon. The son of Solomon was Rehoboam. The son of

ehoboam was Abijah. The son of Abijah was Asa. The son of Asa was

ehoshaphat. The son of Jehoshaphat was Jehoram. The son of Jehoram

as Uzziah. The son of Uzziah was Jotham. The son of Jotham was Ahaz.

he son of Ahaz was Hezekiah. The son of Hezekiah was Manasseh. The

on of Manasseh was Amon. The son of Amon was Josiah. The son of

osiah was Jeconiah. The son of Jeconiah was Shealtiel. The son of

healtiel was Zerubbabel. The son of Zerubbabel was Abiud. The son of

biud was Eliakim. The son of Eliakim was Azor. The son of Azor was

adok. The son of Zadok was Achim. The son of Achim was Eliud. The son

f Eliud was Eleazar. The son of Eleazar was Matthan. The son of

atthan was Jacob. The son of Jacob was Joseph and Joseph was the

usband of Mary the mother of Jesus.

o, from the illicit relationship between Tamar and Judah, three of

he most important people in history were born: David, Solomon and

esus.

his story can be found in the Bible in Genesis 38 and 49, Matthew 1

nd Luke 3.

his story is important in many ways. It establishes the genealogy of

he Jewish race, because it is fair to say that all of the Jews today

re descended from Pharez and Zarah, the two bastard twin sons of

amar. (The only other surviving son of Judah was Shelah, about whom

othing more is said in the Bible.)

ust as all men pass their Y-DNA to their sons, women have

itochondrial DNA or mtDNA which they pass on to their children, both

ale and female. Since under Jewish law, a person is Jewish if his

other is Jewish, this means that all or most Jews should carry the

tDNA of Tamar.
This is not true either.
Although Tamar is virtually ignored by American Jews because she sold

erself as a prostitute to Judah, Russian Jews greatly respect her.

amara is one of the most common Russian names, although a name that

mericans rarely give to their daughters. Even hookers deserve

espect!
Although Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Tamar all lived about 3,700 years

go, this is relatively recently in the genealogical time frame. Since

female generation is 23 years, Tamar lived about 161 generations

go.
It is believed that around ten thousand years ago is when most groups

ad established themselves where they are today. Mass movements are

are. Even the distance from Egypt to Israel is only a distance of 230

iles.
The traditional view, as described in older books, that what followed

as the Diaspora or “the Wandering Jew”. Ten of the twelve tribes were

ost. The rest tried to stay together. When they were driven from one

ountry, they would move to the next. They were carried by the Muslims

cross North Africa and entered Spain by Gibraltar. In Moorish Spain,

hey were treated with respect and did jobs the Muslims were

rohibited from doing, such as loaning money with interest. When

erdinand and Isabella took over Spain in 1492, both the Muslims and

he Jews were driven out. The Muslims went back to North Africa but

he Jews went on to France. Later, the Jews were driven out of France

nd England and wound up in Germany, Poland and Russia, where they

emained until World War II, when they were either killed or driven

ut by the Nazis and they finally reached The Promised Land: America!
This is the traditional view by the Jews to explain how they got to

here they are today.
However, the view of Arthur Koestler who himself was Jewish is that

one of these mass movements of people happened at all. Rather, the

ews stayed in exactly the same place where they have been all along

ecause the Eastern European Jews are the Khazars. They are the same

eople. Just their name has been changed.
Which is more logical: The Traditional Jewish view or Arthur

oestler's theory?
Arthur Koestler was born a Jew in Budapest, Hungary on 5 September

905. Like many Jews, he did not follow the religion or believe in it.

e was equally fluent in Hungarian and German. He later lived in

alestine for five years and learned Hebrew and Yiddish. He wrote more

han forty books. By far the most famous book and the only one really

emembered is The Thirteenth Tribe.
He said that he wrote The Thirteenth Tribe because he "was convinced

hat if he could prove that the bulk of Eastern European Jews (the

ncestors of today's Ashkenazim) were descended from the Khazars, the

acial basis for anti-Semitism would be removed and anti-Semitism

tself could disappear". The book however has had the opposite effect.

he book has been used by opponents of Judaism argue that most Jews

re not really Jews and thus have no right to the land of Israel. On

he other hand, non-religious Jews have accepted it.
Arthur Koestler committed suicide on 3 March 1983 in London because he

as suffering with a terminal case of Parkinson's Disease.
Sam Sloan
Bronx New York
USA
April 10, 2012

ttp://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586
ttp://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586

------------------------------
o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
he message

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 10, 12:40 pm, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Khazars and the Jewish Question
>
> Sam Sloan
>
> The Thirteenth Tribe is a ground breaking work of great importance, if
> only because it has shaped the way that people think about The Jews.

it contains some factual material, but then tries to overprove its
point by making mistakes. Ashkenazic Jews are only thought to have 10%
or so Khazar DNA, but particularly the Levites among them show
divergences from other Jewish DNA. OTOH they tend to be more divergent
from most other Jewish populations. there were more scholarly studies
on the Khazars before, and there contninue to be more.

[dsharavi]

On Apr 10, 9:40 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Khazars and the Jewish Question
> Sam Sloan
> The Thirteenth Tribe is a ground breaking work of
> great importance, if only because it has shaped the
> way that people think about The Jews.

It's a pseudo-academic PoS which has been thoroughly debunked not only
by a reading of history, but by several decades of genetic research.

In its science section of May 10th, 2000, the New York Times carried
an article about DNA testing on certain markers in the Y chromosome
which are present in the majority of Jews in ALL communities --
Sephardi, Ashkenazic, Mizrachi. The article itself stated that these
tests finally disprove notions that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews
descend from Khazar converts. In fact, studies show that the number of
Jews who descend from converts is astonishingly small -- less than
even the most Orthodox Jews would have assumed.

There's nothing "less valid" about one's Jewishness in descent from
converts, so novelist Koestler's notion doesn't hold on that point,
too.

Now that the book has been so conclusively proven wrong, it should be
reprinted with an appropriate disclaimer. And antisemites/fakestinians
should move on and find another dead horse to beat.

[Wjhonson]

Your below, is non-sensical.
There is no way to determine how many Jews descend from *converts*.

<<In fact, studies show that the number of

ews who descend from converts is astonishingly small -- less than

ven the most Orthodox Jews would have assumed.>>

-----Original Message-----
From: dsharavi <dsha...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

Sent: Tue, Apr 10, 2012 3:50 pm
Subject: Re: The Khazars and the Jewish Question Answered


On Apr 10, 9:40 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
The Khazars and the Jewish Question
Sam Sloan
The Thirteenth Tribe is a ground breaking work of
great importance, if only because it has shaped the
way that people think about The Jews.
It's a pseudo-academic PoS which has been thoroughly debunked not only

y a reading of history, but by several decades of genetic research.
In its science section of May 10th, 2000, the New York Times carried

n article about DNA testing on certain markers in the Y chromosome

hich are present in the majority of Jews in ALL communities --

ephardi, Ashkenazic, Mizrachi. The article itself stated that these

ests finally disprove notions that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews

escend from Khazar converts. In fact, studies show that the number of

ews who descend from converts is astonishingly small -- less than

ven the most Orthodox Jews would have assumed.
There's nothing "less valid" about one's Jewishness in descent from

onverts, so novelist Koestler's notion doesn't hold on that point,

oo.
Now that the book has been so conclusively proven wrong, it should be

eprinted with an appropriate disclaimer. And antisemites/fakestinians

hould move on and find another dead horse to beat.

[Bill]

In article <0a3e86d0-7c40-4251-92d6-
9c2b72...@t16g2000yqt.googlegroups.com>, dsha...@hotmail.com
says...

There area actually two sides to this one.

On the one hand there's the 'usual suspects' screaming that Jews have no
homeland, and so 'Will they please stand still so we can get a decent
shot at them', prior to taking everything they own.

They can invariably be discounted as maniacs and anti-Semites.

The others are the 'Jewish atheists' like Koestler and Schlomo Sand who
are searching for some form of non religious Jewish identity because,
well, they're atheists who object to being picked on as Jewish and
would like some reason to hit back that isn't 'But I'm not Jewish, I
don't believe in it' because that excuse never kept the cossacks away or
saved anyone from the gas chambers.



--
William Black

When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's
time to leave.

[samsloan]

Perhaps you are referring to this article here, that says much the
same thing:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/06/tracing-the-roots-of-jewishness.html

Things seem to be going fine until the last paragraph which debunks
the whole conclusion and says that the Jews are a mixture with a
complex history.

Sam Sloan

[dsharavi]

On Apr 10, 1:02 pm, "jeremy.p.spin...@vanderbilt.edu"
<jeremy.p.spin...@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:

> On Apr 10, 11:40 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:

snip

> It is hard to say what the silliest thing in this post is. Beyond the
> main subject of the post, there is the notion that this is by far
> Koestler's most famous and important book, as opposed to the classic
> Darkness at Noon, is rather hard to swallow.

I would believe famous -- but not "most important".

> I am impressed with using biblical literalism as convincing evidence,
> such as the precise date of Abraham or the story of Tamar. This is
> very 19th century;

According to tradition, Abraham was born in 1948, Year of The World
(1,948 years after Adam's creation), which would make the year 1813
BCE, which I don't buy, as his great-great-great-great grandson was
Moses.

>I have a quote on the origin of chess which gives a
> precise date which supposedly corresponds to the Battle of Troy, the
> same article giving an exact date for the invention of wine because
> the date of Noah's Ark was precisely calculated. I have never met
> anyone who still openly declared such things as true, and I live in
> Nashville.

<chuckle> I've read stuff like that. At least Joseph Heller made his
not-so-precise dates and anachronisms funny.

>Sam, how old do you think dinosaurs are? Newsflash - some
> evidence has come in that the bible may not be taken as socialist
> realism.

No, really? Imagine that.

> As to the theory in general, I have no particular opinion; although I
> am myself of Ashkanazic descent, my DNA is not particularly important
> to me. Although I am very much an admirer of Koestler, he is not the
> person I would turn to for finding out answers to such a question. I
> have heard vaguely about the "genetic bottleneck" for Ashkenazi Jews,
> which is given as an explanation for certain rare diseases being much
> more common within the group, and it is mildly interesting to
> speculate about where it comes from; nowadays, one would look at the
> DNA itself as giving the best clues.

At least one bottleneck was the bubonic plague pandemic of the
mid-14th century, which, in five years, claimed some 70 million lives
in Europe, Asia, and North Africa. Another could have been the 6th
century Plague of Justinian.

> Koestler's book may be worth
> reading, but your bizarre summary is hardly an effective argument for
> reading it; if these were really the arguments Koestler was using, I
> would dismiss it as the ramblings of a nut.
> Jerry Spinrad

Koestler was a journalist turned novelist turned parapsychologist. The
Thirteenth Tribe was written seven years before he committed suicide,
when he was in the midst of writing a great deal on science and
scientific research -- particularly research regarding telepathy and
psychokinesis, which he compared with advances in quantum physics. --
His motive in writing it was to "prove" that European Jews weren't
descended from biblical Jews, which he thought would remove one of the
bases for antisemitism.

He was in Israel June - October 1948, covering the war for American
and British newspapers. At one point, he had his jeep stolen; the perp
was Moshe Dayan.

[Wjhonson]

The word "tradition" used in your below, is too meager.
This calculation comes from the Bible as I demonstrate here
http://knol.google.com/k/genealogy-of-noah-according-to-the-bible#

<<According to tradition, Abraham was born in 1948, Year of The World

1,948 years after Adam's creation), which would make the year 1813

CE, which I don't buy, as his great-great-great-great grandson was

oses.>>

-----Original Message-----
From: dsharavi <dsha...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

Sent: Tue, Apr 10, 2012 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: The Khazars and the Jewish Question


On Apr 10, 1:02 pm, "jeremy.p.spin...@vanderbilt.edu"
jeremy.p.spin...@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
On Apr 10, 11:40 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
snip
> It is hard to say what the silliest thing in this post is. Beyond the
main subject of the post, there is the notion that this is by far
Koestler's most famous and important book, as opposed to the classic
Darkness at Noon, is rather hard to swallow.
I would believe famous -- but not "most important".
> I am impressed with using biblical literalism as convincing evidence,
such as the precise date of Abraham or the story of Tamar. This is
very 19th century;
According to tradition, Abraham was born in 1948, Year of The World

1,948 years after Adam's creation), which would make the year 1813

CE, which I don't buy, as his great-great-great-great grandson was

oses.
>I have a quote on the origin of chess which gives a
precise date which supposedly corresponds to the Battle of Troy, the
same article giving an exact date for the invention of wine because
the date of Noah's Ark was precisely calculated. I have never met
anyone who still openly declared such things as true, and I live in
Nashville.
<chuckle> I've read stuff like that. At least Joseph Heller made his

ot-so-precise dates and anachronisms funny.
>Sam, how old do you think dinosaurs are? Newsflash - some
evidence has come in that the bible may not be taken as socialist
realism.
No, really? Imagine that.
> As to the theory in general, I have no particular opinion; although I
am myself of Ashkanazic descent, my DNA is not particularly important
to me. Although I am very much an admirer of Koestler, he is not the
person I would turn to for finding out answers to such a question. I
have heard vaguely about the "genetic bottleneck" for Ashkenazi Jews,
which is given as an explanation for certain rare diseases being much
more common within the group, and it is mildly interesting to
speculate about where it comes from; nowadays, one would look at the
DNA itself as giving the best clues.
At least one bottleneck was the bubonic plague pandemic of the

id-14th century, which, in five years, claimed some 70 million lives

n Europe, Asia, and North Africa. Another could have been the 6th

entury Plague of Justinian.
> Koestler's book may be worth
reading, but your bizarre summary is hardly an effective argument for
reading it; if these were really the arguments Koestler was using, I
would dismiss it as the ramblings of a nut.
Jerry Spinrad
Koestler was a journalist turned novelist turned parapsychologist. The

hirteenth Tribe was written seven years before he committed suicide,

hen he was in the midst of writing a great deal on science and

cientific research -- particularly research regarding telepathy and

sychokinesis, which he compared with advances in quantum physics. --

is motive in writing it was to "prove" that European Jews weren't

escended from biblical Jews, which he thought would remove one of the

ases for antisemitism.
He was in Israel June - October 1948, covering the war for American

nd British newspapers. At one point, he had his jeep stolen; the perp

as Moshe Dayan.

[HHW]

On Apr 10, 6:20 pm, dsharavi <dshara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 10, 1:02 pm, "jeremy.p.spin...@vanderbilt.edu"
>
> <jeremy.p.spin...@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
> > On Apr 10, 11:40 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> > It is hard to say what the silliest thing in this post is. Beyond the
> > main subject of the post, there is the notion that this is by far
> > Koestler's most famous and important book, as opposed to the classic
> > Darkness at Noon, is rather hard to swallow.
>
> I would believe famous -- but not "most important".

For those who have read Koestler's biography and understand something
of the history of the early Cold War era, there can be little question
that "Darkness at Noon" is his most important book. The reason is that
it was very influential politically in the struggle to contain Soviet
communism.

> > I am impressed with using biblical literalism as convincing evidence,
> > such as the precise date of Abraham or the story of Tamar. This is
> > very 19th century;
>
> According to tradition, Abraham was born in 1948, Year of The World
> (1,948 years after Adam's creation), which would make the year 1813
> BCE, which I don't buy, as his great-great-great-great grandson was
> Moses.

Neither of these figures existed. If you can differentiate 'truths' in
unwritten traditions of the Jews from their equivalent among the
Ojibwa as to historical reliability please have at it. In the mean
time you waste our time.

> >I have a quote on the origin of chess which gives a
> > precise date which supposedly corresponds to the Battle of Troy, the
> > same article giving an exact date for the invention of wine because
> > the date of Noah's Ark was precisely calculated. I have never met
> > anyone who still openly declared such things as true, and I live in
> > Nashville.

Nice town, Nashville. But I suspect that it harbors a lot of folk who
will both declare them true and vote Republican in November. Your
region's capacity for error is immense.

> <chuckle> I've read stuff like that. At least Joseph Heller made his
> not-so-precise dates and anachronisms funny.

Those in the Torah are more funny than Heller's.

> >Sam, how old do you think dinosaurs are? Newsflash - some
> > evidence has come in that the bible may not be taken as socialist
> > realism.

Mein Gott in Himmel! Who claimed that?

>
> No, really? Imagine that.

> > As to the theory in general, I have no particular opinion; although I
> > am myself of Ashkanazic descent, my DNA is not particularly important
> > to me. Although I am very much an admirer of Koestler, he is not the
> > person I would turn to for finding out answers to such a question.

You should if you are interested in the intellectual history of the

question.

I
> > have heard vaguely about the "genetic bottleneck" for Ashkenazi Jews,
> > which is given as an explanation for certain rare diseases being much
> > more common within the group, and it is mildly interesting to
> > speculate about where it comes from; nowadays, one would look at the
> > DNA itself as giving the best clues.

Perhaps, but the history of Jewish eugenics is important too.

> At least one bottleneck was the bubonic plague pandemic of the
> mid-14th century, which, in five years, claimed some 70 million lives
> in Europe, Asia, and North Africa. Another could have been the 6th
> century Plague of Justinian.

How did you choose "bottleneck" as descriptive of anything at issue
here?

>
> > Koestler's book may be worth
> > reading, but your bizarre summary is hardly an effective argument for
> > reading it; if these were really the arguments Koestler was using, I
> > would dismiss it as the ramblings of a nut.
> > Jerry Spinrad
>
> Koestler was a journalist turned novelist turned parapsychologist. The
> Thirteenth Tribe was written seven years before he committed suicide,
> when he was in the midst of writing a great deal on science and
> scientific research -- particularly research regarding telepathy and
> psychokinesis, which he compared with advances in quantum physics. --
> His motive in writing it was to "prove" that European Jews weren't
> descended from biblical Jews, which he thought would remove one of the
> bases for antisemitism.
>
> He was in Israel June - October 1948, covering the war for American
> and British newspapers. At one point, he had his jeep stolen; the perp
> was Moshe Dayan.

Casual crap dropping straight from the likes of Wiki is one of her
leit motifs.

Perhaps you, Jerry, don't know the anonymous Ms. sharavi. She is
Jewish and one of her specialties is the ritual assassination of any
Jew who is open minded or humane on the question of the Palestinians.
She tries to sell hasbara to the effect that they are not really human
beings at all, that they are born terrorists.

[dsharavi]

On Apr 10, 5:14 pm, HHW wrote:
> On Apr 10, 6:20 pm, dsharavi wrote:
> > On Apr 10, 1:02 pm, jeremy.p.spin...@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
> > > On Apr 10, 11:40 am, samsloan wrote:

> > snip

>
> > On Apr 10, 1:02 pm, jeremy.p.spin...@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
> > > It is hard to say what the silliest thing in this post is. Beyond the
> > > main subject of the post, there is the notion that this is by far
> > > Koestler's most famous and important book, as opposed to the classic
> > > Darkness at Noon, is rather hard to swallow.

> On Apr 10, 6:20 pm, dsharavi wrote:
> > I would believe famous -- but not "most important".
>

On Apr 10, 5:14 pm, HHW wrote:
> For those who have read Koestler's biography and understand something
> of the history of the early Cold War era, there can be little question
> that "Darkness at Noon" is his most important book.

Not at issue. At issue is Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe.

> > > I am impressed with using biblical literalism as convincing evidence,
> > > such as the precise date of Abraham or the story of Tamar. This is
> > > very 19th century;
>
> > According to tradition, Abraham was born in 1948, Year of The World
> > (1,948 years after Adam's creation), which would make the year 1813
> > BCE, which I don't buy, as his great-great-great-great grandson was
> > Moses.
>
> Neither of these figures existed. If you can differentiate 'truths' in
> unwritten traditions of the Jews from their equivalent

I wrote: "According to tradition", pendejo. The traditional date given
for Abraham's birth is 1948 Year of The World

(1,948 years after Adam's creation), which would make the year 1813

BCE. ACCORDING TO TRADITION, the exodus from Egypt occurred in the
Year of the World 2448 (or 1312 BCE).

And no, theses traditions are not "unwritten". They were put into
writing around 18 centuries ago.

>In the mean time you waste our time.

That's pretty funny, coming as it does from you, pendejo, and your
little buddy Queen John Manning of Crossposted Irrelevancies.

> > >I have a quote on the origin of chess which gives a
> > > precise date which supposedly corresponds to the Battle of Troy, the
> > > same article giving an exact date for the invention of wine because
> > > the date of Noah's Ark was precisely calculated. I have never met
> > > anyone who still openly declared such things as true, and I live in
> > > Nashville.
>
> Nice town, Nashville.

Not at issue. You waste time.

>Your region's capacity for error is immense.

Not at issue. You waste even more time with your patented idiotic
comments, cabron.

> > <chuckle> I've read stuff like that. At least Joseph Heller made his
> > not-so-precise dates and anachronisms funny.
>
> Those in the Torah are more funny than Heller's.

Specify what dates you have found in Torah, and what you've read of

Heller's.

> > >Sam, how old do you think dinosaurs are? Newsflash - some
> > > evidence has come in that the bible may not be taken as socialist
> > > realism.

> Mein Gott in Himmel! Who claimed that?

> > No, really? Imagine that.
> > > As to the theory in general, I have no particular opinion; although I
> > > am myself of Ashkanazic descent, my DNA is not particularly important
> > > to me. Although I am very much an admirer of Koestler, he is not the
> > > person I would turn to for finding out answers to such a question.
>
> You should if you are interested in the intellectual history of the
> question.

Your comment is irrelevant and of no import. You waste time.

> > > I
> > > have heard vaguely about the "genetic bottleneck" for Ashkenazi Jews,
> > > which is given as an explanation for certain rare diseases being much
> > > more common within the group, and it is mildly interesting to
> > > speculate about where it comes from; nowadays, one would look at the
> > > DNA itself as giving the best clues.
>
> Perhaps, but the history of Jewish eugenics is important too.

Not at issue. You waste time.

> > At least one bottleneck was the bubonic plague pandemic of the
> > mid-14th century, which, in five years, claimed some 70 million lives
> > in Europe, Asia, and North Africa. Another could have been the 6th
> > century Plague of Justinian.
>
> How did you choose "bottleneck" as descriptive of anything at issue
> here?

Because Jerry S wrote:
"I have heard vaguely about the "genetic bottleneck" for Ashkenazi
Jews,"

> > > Koestler's book may be worth
> > > reading, but your bizarre summary is hardly an effective argument for
> > > reading it; if these were really the arguments Koestler was using, I
> > > would dismiss it as the ramblings of a nut.
> > > Jerry Spinrad
>
> > Koestler was a journalist turned novelist turned parapsychologist. The
> > Thirteenth Tribe was written seven years before he committed suicide,
> > when he was in the midst of writing a great deal on science and
> > scientific research -- particularly research regarding telepathy and
> > psychokinesis, which he compared with advances in quantum physics. --
> > His motive in writing it was to "prove" that European Jews weren't
> > descended from biblical Jews, which he thought would remove one of the
> > bases for antisemitism.
>
> > He was in Israel June - October 1948, covering the war for American
> > and British newspapers. At one point, he had his jeep stolen; the perp
> > was Moshe Dayan.
>
> Casual crap dropping straight from the likes of
> Wiki is one of her leit motifs.

Bullshit, bwana. Your main "liet motif" is your antisemitism.

> Perhaps you, Jerry, don't know the anonymous Ms. sharavi. She is
> Jewish and one of her specialties is the ritual assassination of any
> Jew who is open minded or humane on the question of the Palestinians.
> She tries to sell hasbara to the effect that they are not really human
> beings at all, that they are born terrorists.

More of your typical bullshit, bwana. Go wipe yourself.

[Warhol]

Op 11-4-2012 2:59, dsharavi schreef:

and you yids can turn facts as much as you want... that wont change
anything of your mongol roots... you are fake... you know it and we know
it...

your bastard breed has no connection with the bloodlines of the people
of the books... learn to accepte you are the gentiles and the people you
treat as such are the people of the book... you yids ain't better than
animals as written in your own talmud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5zZpMIrWu8

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 10, 12:40 pm, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Khazars and the Jewish Question
>
> Sam Sloan
>

>

> Abraham had two sons, Ismail by his servant Hagar and Isaac by his
> wife Sarah. According to both the Bible and the Quran, Ismail is the
> father of all Arabs and Isaac is the father of all Jews.

the Qur'an does not claim that Ishmael (Ismail in Arabic) is the
ancestor of all the Arabs. in fact, the Qur'an has very little
narative at all. it does claim that Jacob (Israel) is the ancestor of
the Jews as it calls them Banu Israil (banu: 'isra:'i:l "Children of
Israel") but also uses the term Yahud (yahu:d) "Jews". later Arab
commentators regarded the first term as denoting ancestry and the
other religion, as they knew that Yemeni and Arabian Jews were
converts.

as for Ishmael, Arabs divided the Arabs into "Southern" and "Northern"
Arabs and they regarded the "Southern" arabs as the true Arabs, and
the Northern tribes were regarded as "Arabized". Ishmael was regarded
as the ancestor of the Northern Arabs, and Arab tradition says that he
learned Arabic from the Arab tribe of Jurhum. Muhammad was regarded as
a descendant of Ishmael.

it was Greek and other Christian sources that called the Arabs
Ishmaelites.

[Colin B. Withers]

[snip]

There's nothing "less valid" about one's Jewishness in descent from
converts, so novelist Koestler's notion doesn't hold on that point,
too.

[/snip]

There a High Court case in the UK recently, where the son of a Jewish father, and a gentile mother who had converted to Judaism before the birth, was rejected a place at an Orthodox School, because he 'was not Jewish enough'.

The father lost the case, and the high court upheld the Chief Rabbi's view that the boy "not an 'approved' Jew".

In the case, the lawyers for the Chief Rabbi declared that Jewish status is inherited through the mother, and the Chief Rabbi did not recognise the conversion.

Wibs

[drahcir]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:40:44 -0700 (PDT), samsloan
<samh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The Khazars and the Jewish Question
>
>Sam Sloan

um, what Jewish question, Sam?

[drahcir]

Probably reading comprehension is not your forte. No one expects that
a population immersed into another population(s) for 2000 years will
remain pure, and no one has ever made that claim. There is always
going to be intermarriage. The point is that, to a very substantial
degree, all Jews are genetically traceable back to the ancient middle
east, not to Khazars, which MAY account for SOME SMALL % of DNA of
SOME Ashkenazim. Translation: the book your original post relies on is
crap. Admixture is totally irrelevant.

[SolomonW]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 00:22:22 -0700 (PDT), Yusuf B Gursey wrote:

> On Apr 10, 12:40 pm, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Khazars and the Jewish Question
>>
>> Sam Sloan
>>
>
>>
>> Abraham had two sons, Ismail by his servant Hagar and Isaac by his
>> wife Sarah. According to both the Bible and the Quran, Ismail is the
>> father of all Arabs and Isaac is the father of all Jews.
>
> the Qur'an does not claim that Ishmael (Ismail in Arabic) is the
> ancestor of all the Arabs. in fact, the Qur'an has very little
> narative at all. it does claim that Jacob (Israel) is the ancestor of
> the Jews as it calls them Banu Israil (banu: 'isra:'i:l "Children of
> Israel") but also uses the term Yahud (yahu:d) "Jews". later Arab
> commentators regarded the first term as denoting ancestry and the
> other religion, as they knew that Yemeni and Arabian Jews were
> converts.
>
> as for Ishmael, Arabs divided the Arabs into "Southern" and "Northern"
> Arabs and they regarded the "Southern" arabs as the true Arabs, and
> the Northern tribes were regarded as "Arabized". Ishmael was regarded
> as the ancestor of the Northern Arabs, and Arab tradition says that he
> learned Arabic from the Arab tribe of Jurhum. Muhammad was regarded as
> a descendant of Ishmael.

In a discussion that looked trollish, this post turned out to be
fascinating. Thank you.

>
> it was Greek and other Christian sources that called the Arabs
> Ishmaelites.

There was also an attempt by Christians to claim that they were the true

[Wjhonson]

Ruth... was... A... Moabite.
There is no way past that.




-----Original Message-----
From: Colin B. Withers <Colin....@eumetsat.int>
To: 'dsharavi' <dsha...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 11, 2012 2:38 am
Subject: RE: The Khazars and the Jewish Question Answered


[snip]

here's nothing "less valid" about one's Jewishness in descent from

onverts, so novelist Koestler's notion doesn't hold on that point,

oo.

/snip]
There a High Court case in the UK recently, where the son of a Jewish father,

nd a gentile mother who had converted to Judaism before the birth, was rejected

place at an Orthodox School, because he 'was not Jewish enough'.
The father lost the case, and the high court upheld the Chief Rabbi's view that

he boy "not an 'approved' Jew".
In the case, the lawyers for the Chief Rabbi declared that Jewish status is

nherited through the mother, and the Chief Rabbi did not recognise the

onversion.
Wibs

[Warhol]

Op 11-4-2012 9:22, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

Ismail received as heritage north America and HE is the founding father
of the Native indians with semite roots(they have an Arab look)...
literally, the Sons of Ismail but better translated as the Tribe of Ismail.

http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/imperial_watch/curio_americana_ben_ishmael_tribe.html

Arabs are Beni Hussein Tribes and Berbers of Morocco are of the Beni
Hassan tribe...

yids tried to exterminate the Beni ismail tribe... but they certainly
failed and people start to discover the crimes committed against the
Beni Ismail... are reel bloodbath against people with to true roots to
the nations...

Jews have all the halo group of mongols... they don't belong amongst the
nations of Jacob or any Semite group... and their are neither cousins of
Arabs... since Arabs are the cousins of Berbers...

[Yusuf B Gursey]

> http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/imperial_watch/curio_americana...

>
> Arabs are Beni Hussein Tribes and Berbers of Morocco are of the Beni
> Hassan tribe...
>

the Banu Hassan (Hassa:n with a geminted /s/ and long /a:/ in the
second syllable, in contrast to the elder son of `Ali al-Hasan with an
ungeminated /s/ and a short /a/ in the second syllable) are an
Arabophone tribe, said to come from the Southern Arabs (linguistic
evidence IMHO supports this claim) living in Mauritania, Southern
Sahara and southern Morocco proper (excl. S. Sahara).

youare mixing it up with the Sharifs (purported descendents of al-
Hasan b. `Ali) and the Sayyids (purported descendants of al-Husayn b.
`Ali). these are not a tribe but a class of people, spread throughout
the Islamic and speaking various languages.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

the two names are confused in popular Romanization as those named
Hasan frequently spell their names Hassan in order that it may not be
pronounced as [hazan] in many European languages.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 11, 4:51 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:

they are called "Moors" by Europeans and have distinctive dialect.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 11, 4:38 pm, Warhol <mol...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/imperial_watch/curio_americana...

>
> Arabs are Beni Hussein Tribes and Berbers of Morocco are of the Beni
> Hassan tribe...
>
> yids tried to exterminate the Beni ismail tribe... but they certainly
> failed and people start to discover the crimes committed against the
> Beni Ismail... are reel bloodbath against people with to true roots to
> the nations...
>
> Jews have all the halo group of mongols... they don't belong amongst the
> nations of Jacob or any Semite group... and their are neither cousins of
> Arabs... since Arabs are the cousins of Berbers...

Arabic is a Semitic language closely akin to Biblical Hebrew, Berber
is and Afro-Asiatic cluster of closely related idioms, that forms its
own branch within Afro-Asiatic seperate from Semitic

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 10, 12:40 pm, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Khazars and the Jewish Question
>
> Sam Sloan

>

> If all or almost all Jews alive today are descendants of Abraham,

> which is what Jewish scholars claim, then the men would all share the
> same Y-chromosome DNA type or haplogroup.

>
> Since they do not, this shows that this story is not true.
>

> Abraham had two sons, Ismail by his servant Hagar and Isaac by his
> wife Sarah. According to both the Bible and the Quran, Ismail is the
> father of all Arabs and Isaac is the father of all Jews.
>

> If true, the Arabs and the Jews would all belong to the same
> haplogroup but again DNA testing shows that this is not true.

"Arab" includes a variety of populations that speak Arabic.

linguistically, Classical Arabic and Biblical Hebrew are very close,
and some propose an Arabo-Canaanite group. there are extinct varieties
of Arabic called Ancient North Arabian known from graffiti in the
South Semitic script. they have some features that they share with
Biblical Hebrew not shared by Classical Arabic.

[Warhol]

Op 11-4-2012 22:51, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

No I am not mixing any thing, but vermin Mixed everything to one big
soup, in the hope never we would discover the truth again... I am a
Sheriff of AlGharb, a descendant of the beni hassan tribe and I know
still my Hassani history or my Hassani language which is much older than
Arabic, I even declare that Arabic, or shall Call it Husseiniya, is only
a dialect of Hassaniya... its not that history books have been rewritten
full of lies that my history is lost for ever... for that they failed
miserably...

here they write the name of Bani Hassan as Beni Hssen... you know we
don't write vowels, but it should be read correctly Beni Hassan... Sons
of Hassan... yids made of Hassan, Hashem... their G-D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharb-Chrarda-B%C3%A9ni_Hssen

The bani Hassan ruled over many Hassani tribes from Senegal to Egypt
from current day Morocco... and our language is Hassaniya, or money is
called Hassani...

The Semitic family... not yids... but Berbers who history was erased
from all history books, but facts remain... for all to see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass%C4%81n%C4%ABya_language

And since they want to erase my history of my tribes, they made of what
is left of Hassani culture, a Sahraoui tales...

http://www.sahara-online.net/tabid/721/Default.aspx

But the desert thieves and yids will never have the Maccabee History

I put I here again for all to read...Language & family; Semitic

Magh'Rabbi... Hassan Al Mesbahi, Sheriff AlGharb, Sarsar, L'Anjari, Al
Alemi... Direct descendant of the prophet.

http://population.mongabay.com/population/morocco/2532394/souq-larb%27a-al-gharb

[Warhol]

Op 11-4-2012 22:54, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

berber is Ha-Semite... but I agree you read everywhere that we speak
Afro-Asiatic... but that is not correct... we speak Hassaniya... the
mother tongue of all Semite/Hebrew languages

from the Semitic three-letter root H-S-N
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_%28surname%29

Hassaniya Languages is Semite group...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass%C4%81n%C4%ABya_language

The Rial Hassani...
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Coin-Collecting-2297/2011/1/old-coin-star-David.htm
http://www.daggarjon.com/Coinage_Morocco.php

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 11, 5:53 pm, Warhol <mol...@hotmail.com> wrote:

for a North African you are very confused.

> of Hassan... yids made of Hassan, Hashem... their G-D.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharb-Chrarda-B%C3%A9ni_Hssen

>
> The bani Hassan ruled over many Hassani tribes from Senegal to Egypt
> from current day Morocco... and our language is Hassaniya, or money is
> called Hassani...
>

the money is not named after the Banu Hassa:n

> The Semitic family... not yids... but Berbers who history was erased
> from all history books, but facts remain... for all to see.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass%C4%81n%C4%ABya_language
>
> And since they want to erase my history of my tribes, they made of what
> is left of Hassani culture, a Sahraoui tales...
>
> http://www.sahara-online.net/tabid/721/Default.aspx
>
> But the desert thieves and yids will never have the Maccabee History
>
> I put I here again for all to read...Language & family; Semitic
>
> Magh'Rabbi... Hassan Al Mesbahi, Sheriff AlGharb, Sarsar, L'Anjari, Al
> Alemi... Direct descendant of the prophet.
>

> http://population.mongabay.com/population/morocco/2532394/souq-larb%2...

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Hassa:niyya is an Arabic colloquial.

> mother tongue of all Semite/Hebrew languages
>

NO

> from the Semitic three-letter root H-S-Nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_%28surname%29

>
> Hassaniya Languages is Semite group...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass%C4%81n%C4%ABya_language
>

> The Rial Hassani...http://en.allexperts.com/q/Coin-Collecting-2297/2011/1/old-coin-star-...http://www.daggarjon.com/Coinage_Morocco.php

these refer to the proper name Hasan (not Hassa:n), as the kings of
Morocco claim descent from al-Hasan b. `Ali

[Warhol]

Op 11-4-2012 23:14, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

Arabic ain't the correct connotation... of al Gharbi they made Arbi
which translates now to arabic... this happened in the age of the
ottomans, who erased the husseiniyan(Arabic) history... and to steal the
heritage of AlGharbi...

Hassan
Family name
Meaning "handsome", "good", "manly", "strong", "benefactor", "Son of
Osain", "Son of Oisín", "Cantor", "singer"

Region of origin Arabic, Irish, Hebrew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_%28surname%29

But omitted is the Magh-Rabbi... as always.

http://www.coinquest.com/cgi-bin/cq/coins?main_coin=1217&main_ct_id=36

I must remember my friends here my heritage in Jerusalem... the western
wall is private property of my family... yes the wall all the yids pray
against... is mine... and the gate to that leads to the temple mount is
mine to... The Magh-Rabbi Gate.

[Warhol]

Op 12-4-2012 0:25, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

do you know where the Hebrews used to live? well that was in Iberia... I
repeat Hassaniya is mother tongue of all Semite/Hebrew languages... and
this a fact... and Arabic is only a dialect of Hassaniya... also a fact.

>> from the Semitic three-letter root H-S-Nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_%28surname%29
>>
>> Hassaniya Languages is Semite group...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass%C4%81n%C4%ABya_language
>>
>> The Rial Hassani...http://en.allexperts.com/q/Coin-Collecting-2297/2011/1/old-coin-star-...http://www.daggarjon.com/Coinage_Morocco.php
>
> these refer to the proper name Hasan (not Hassa:n), as the kings of
> Morocco claim descent from al-Hasan b. `Ali

The Alaouite Kings of morocco are Edomites... from turkey... they are
pretenders to the crown that rules over all faiths... Now the King is
called the predator King...
http://www.spsrasd.info/en/content/ipa-urges-morocco-authorize-distribution-book-predator-king

And would like to call himself leader of the faithfull... while
inreality he and his father is Herode who persecutes the children
because one HASSAN, can be born amongst us the genealogy of the prophet
and the Saaidian dynasty... Siyyed el Deen is now translated wrongly to
saaidian... A Promised Imam who will bring his people(Moroccans) back
from the four corners in the world...

It's the History of the Maghrabi Kingdom of Fes that was erased... and
fake history of the alaouites is imposed on the people... but they
remain cursed as GOG of the Maroc(Magog)... and his curse begins when
the Great Mosque of Casablanca is destroyed... than the world will see
the Might of Hassan... bow their heads on the groun to the one send from
heaven... Hassan El Mesbahi... The Warrior(Hassan) of the Light(Mesbah)

The true leader of the Faithful... Amir al-Mu'minin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_al-Mu%27minin

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 11, 6:37 pm, Warhol <mol...@hotmail.com> wrote:

what did you do, sleep during elementary reading and writing Arabic?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

> > these refer to the proper name Hasan (not Hassa:n), as the kings of
> > Morocco claim descent from al-Hasan b. `Ali
>
> The Alaouite Kings of morocco are Edomites... from turkey... they are

Edom has nothing to do with Turkey

> pretenders to the crown that rules over all faiths... Now the King is

> called the predator King...http://www.spsrasd.info/en/content/ipa-urges-morocco-authorize-distri...

[Warhol]

Op 12-4-2012 0:28, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

Money is named Hassani... the Hassani currency... minting, of "Hassani" type

http://www.bkam.ma/wps/portal/net/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKL94o3CgwFSZnFe8QbebvqR2KIuSDEfD3yc1P1g9KK9L31A_QLckMjyh0dFQG-kTpD/delta/base64xml/L0lKWWttUSEhL3dITUFDc0FFVUFOby80SUVhREFBIS9lbg!!?Lien=V

>
>> The Semitic family... not yids... but Berbers who history was erased
>> from all history books, but facts remain... for all to see.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass%C4%81n%C4%ABya_language
>>
>> And since they want to erase my history of my tribes, they made of what
>> is left of Hassani culture, a Sahraoui tales...
>>
>> http://www.sahara-online.net/tabid/721/Default.aspx
>>
>> But the desert thieves and yids will never have the Maccabee History
>>

>> I put I here again for all to read...Language& family; Semitic

[Yusuf B Gursey]

because a ruler named Hasan (which in French spelling becomes Hassan)
minted it

>
> http://www.bkam.ma/wps/portal/net/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_Qj...

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 11, 6:37 pm, Warhol <mol...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hassan is a European transcription of Hasan. there is also the name
Hassa:n from which the dialect name comes from.

[Warhol]

Op 12-4-2012 0:42, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

I am talking about the Root H-S-N and how you write it or someone else
writes it, I don't care... But I will not let any one steal the heritage
of my people... the Legacy of the moor for the Moor baby of the Hassani
tribes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD-7ls7qst8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ark1XmbNAlk

you see at the end the evil ones got trapped... that is what happen this
day to... we trap our enies who after my heritage in a cave... a secret
cave.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

there are two different but related names involved.

> of my people... the Legacy of the moor for the Moor baby of the Hassani
> tribes...
>

that's a different issue

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD-7ls7qst8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ark1XmbNAlk

[Warhol]

why don't you understand the meaning of words???

The Moor’s Baby must solve an algebra problem

http://www.trilulilu.ro/video-animatie/smurfs-3x34-the-moor-s-baby

Algebra also has roots in Al Gharb... the boy of Bled es Siba... wasn't
sleeping while the rest did... no no no he solved the great questions of
matter...




Op 12-4-2012 1:01, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

[Warhol]

Op 12-4-2012 1:04, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

Maybe they told you so but...of course Turics have everything to do with
the evil Edomites... since they are the Edomites... I tell you that...
and i speak the truth.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

I am Turkish and I can tell you that I have nothing to do with
Biblical Edom

[Warhol]

Op 12-4-2012 1:11, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

No the its named after the semite Hassani Tribe... the descendants of
HaShem... Ha-San... Ha-SHEM, son of Noah...

why do you always try to turn to things I didn't say... the Alaouite
ruler in 1911 wasn't even named hassan/Hasan/HSN... The hassani naming
has no connection with the alaouites... and they want to erase hassani
name of our memories, why the currency ain't named anymore hassani in
morocco... only in bled es siba we call our ancient currency
hassaniya... but the alaouite money we call the currency of the DOG...

he he persecuted the Saints and my holy family hasn't forgotten yet...

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 11, 7:43 pm, Warhol <mol...@hotmail.com> wrote:

you are not rational and not worth responding to

[NEMO]

Warhol, you disgusting Jew - baiting dog turd, if you put lipstick on
a pig, it's still a pig!


Oink - oink Pig Fucking - YouTube


www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJv94Q6bew8


Uploaded by 69PlayaPlaya69 on Feb 4, 2009. One of my friends was
fuckin around with a pig at the county fair and i decided to take a
video of it......LOL ...


PIGS FUCKING - YouTube


www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtYYjaYy-DQ


25 Jan 2006 – Watch Later Error JUSTIN U FUCKING PIG DONT CHANGE THE
NAME OF THE VIDEOby fuckrocolvin3188 views. Loading more suggestions.


Two Pigs Fucking Video


www.metrolyrics.com/two-pigs-fucking-video-labrat.html


Labrat Music Videos. All songs or specific song videos.

[Warhol]

Op 12-4-2012 1:39, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

I can tell that and even more... the wounded head of the beast is also
turkish and erDOGan is the beast that shall one of this days trample the
harlot state and try to recreate a false caliphate... but of course as
we all know he shall be then defeated by the Son of Hasan, Hassane the
Efasi by the word only... (you see lies can't stand against truth)

But before Imam Mahdi Hassan comes inaction, turks first must invade
Syria and ottoman/catholic made israel(called in the Bible Harlot) see
revelation 17...

http://bible.cc/revelation/17-16.htm

The Harlot Shall Be Burned with Fire: Biblical Literalism... The Girl
with the Wolf

Then only;

Nostradamus:


"From Fez the Kingdom stretches out across Europe,

The city burns, and sword slices:

The great one of Asia Land and Sea a great army.

That blue, Persia, cross, driven to death."



the Blue are of course the Turics... Blue is the color of the
military... Turkish Blue... Persia is turkey, as the french used to call
turks in the 17th century

http://thewe.cc/thewei/&/images3/2004_war_photos_5/r1411043251.jpe

[Warhol]

I see... but facts remain here for all to see...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I21uOE5kCVk



Op 12-4-2012 1:46, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 11, 7:27 pm, Warhol <mol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> why don't you understand the meaning of words???
>

because you have very bad English and are full of fantasies

[Warhol]

the only I know who lives in fantasies is ErDOGan... and his followers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upD3fLvZCM8


Op 12-4-2012 1:41, Yusuf B Gursey schreef:

[Dom]

On Apr 10, 12:40 pm, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Khazars and the Jewish Question

[snip]

I wonder if the Khazars are related to the ancient Colchians?

In Book II.104 of "The Histories" trans. by Robin Waterfield, Oxford
Univ. Press (1998) http://www.amazon.com/Histories-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0199535663/
, Herodotus wrote:

"Cholcians, Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only peoples in the world
who practice circumcision and they have always done so. The
Phoenicians and Palestinian Syrians are the first to admit that they
learnt the practice from Egypt, and the Syrians who live in the land
between the Thermodon and Parthenius rivers, and their neighbors the
Macrones, say that in their case it is a recent import from Colchis.
[...] The Phoenicians who have come in contact with Greece have
stopped copying the Egyptians with respect to their genitalia, and do
not cut off their children's foreskins."

According to Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart%C4%B1n_River

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrones

the Thermodon and Parthenius rivers are the present Terme and Bartýn
rivers in northern Anatolia, and the Macrones lived east of Pontus.

Note: I have been informed that the Syrians mentioned by Herodotus and
other ancient Greek writers referred to the Assyrians.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 15, 8:44 pm, Dom <DR...@teikyopost.edu> wrote:
> On Apr 10, 12:40 pm, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:> The Khazars and the Jewish Question
>
> [snip]
>
> I wonder if the Khazars are related to the ancient Colchians?

the Khazars were a Turkic people linguistically related to the Huns.
but they also ruled over an indigenous population

>
> In Book II.104 of "The Histories" trans. by Robin Waterfield, Oxford

> Univ. Press (1998)http://www.amazon.com/Histories-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0199535663/

[samsloan]

Actually, nobody knows who the Khazars were or what language they
spoke since no Khazar writings survive. It is just assumed that they
were Turkic, with no proof.

I find it interesting that the Khazars dominated the exact area where
the Indo-European Family of Languages originated. However, that was
four thousand years ago, long before the Khazars existed. From their
homeland north of the Black and Caspian Seas, the Indo-European Family
of Languages spread West to Europe and South to India but perhaps
ceased to be spoken in their homeland of West Asia and Eastern Europe.

My book about this has just come out today.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586

Sam Sloan

[AlexMilman]

On Apr 16, 6:02 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, nobody knows who the Khazars were or what language they
> spoke since no Khazar writings survive.

AFAIK, it would be more proper to say that no writings in Khazar
language survived (IIRC, there was at least one surviving fragment
with a peculiar combination of various languages), unlike
correspondence in other languages. Authenticity of what survived was/
is, AFAIK, disputed based on many considerations, including purely
political ones.

> It is just assumed that they
> were Turkic, with no proof.

Most probably they were a mixture of the various groups because
contemporary sources distinguish 'white' and 'black' (as in 'black-
haired') Khazars with the noticeably different appearance.

OTOH, Turik/Hunnish element was almost definitely present: to mock
Khazar Kahan, citizens of one besieged town used a pumpkin with the
hanging long 'mustaches' and tiny slits for the eyes (Kahan was
seriously pissed off with this display).

One of the arguments in a favor of the Turik roots is a fact that the
Khazars appeared on the scene soon after disintegration of the 1st
Turik Empire even if their initial appearances was as one of the 2nd
rate tribes.

>
> I find it interesting that the Khazars dominated the exact area where
> the Indo-European Family of Languages originated. However, that was
> four thousand years ago, long before the Khazars existed.

Yes. And IIRC they initially appeared in the area North of the modern
Derbent and only later moved to the areas you mentioned.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 16, 6:02 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Actually, nobody knows who the Khazars were or what language they
> spoke since no Khazar writings survive. It is just assumed that they
> were Turkic, with no proof.
>

we have some proper names, the self identification of the Khazars in
Joseph's letter, the statement by Arab authors that the Khazars have
teh same language as the Bulghars, a word in Runic letters that can be
read as Bulghar Turkic.

> I find it interesting that the Khazars dominated the exact area where
> the Indo-European Family of Languages originated. However, that was
> four thousand years ago, long before the Khazars existed. From their
> homeland north of the Black and Caspian Seas, the Indo-European Family
> of Languages spread West to Europe and South to India but perhaps
> ceased to be spoken in their homeland of West Asia and Eastern Europe.
>
> My book about this has just come out today.
>

> http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586

[AlexMilman]

On Apr 16, 2:39 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 16, 6:02 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually, nobody knows who the Khazars were or what language they
> > spoke since no Khazar writings survive. It is just assumed that they
> > were Turkic, with no proof.
>
> we have some proper names, the self identification of the Khazars in
> Joseph's letter, the statement by Arab authors that the Khazars have
> teh same language as the Bulghars, a word in Runic letters that can be
> read as Bulghar Turkic.

Yusuf, do me a favor: if you are answering to Sam's post, don't get me
included on the top of the list: I did not write a single word out of
what you are quoting and objecting to. :-)

As a matter of fact, _my_ post was along the same lines as yours.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

huh? the post is clearly a response to samslaone

[AlexMilman]

I already sent my apologies: there was something strange with
displaying the list of names when I saw your response first time.

[AlexMilman]

On Apr 16, 3:17 pm, AlexMilman <alexmil...@msn.com> wrote:

Oops, by some crazy reason, when I was writing my answer, my name was
on the top of your list but when I see response, it disappeared. My
apologies.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 16, 2:39 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 16, 6:02 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually, nobody knows who the Khazars were or what language they
> > spoke since no Khazar writings survive. It is just assumed that they
> > were Turkic, with no proof.
>
> we have some proper names, the self identification of the Khazars in
> Joseph's letter, the statement by Arab authors that the Khazars have
> teh same language as the Bulghars, a word in Runic letters that can be
> read as Bulghar Turkic.
>
>
>

the Khazars seemed to have had a dynastic connection to the Turk
Empire (Asaitic Turks) as seen from the fact that they were called
"Turks" and from a line in Joseph's letter. but linguitically they
were Bulghar Turks. also toponyms are evidence of the Bulgharo-Turkic
origin of the Khazars. among them is Azak (Russian Azov), which is
Bulgharo-Turkic (of a certain period) of Turkic "foot" / "mouth of a
river"

[samsloan]

The book is out now finally. It already has some sales and a sales
rank.

[John Briggs]

On 26/04/2012 13:55, samsloan wrote:
> The book is out now finally. It already has some sales and a sales
> rank.

Just out of interest, do you have permission to re-publish this book,
and if so, from whom?
--
John Briggs

[samsloan]

The work is public domain because the author and his wife committed
suicide in a suicide pact, leaving no heirs.

Sam Sloan

[AlexMilman]

This, seemingly, never stops Sam (remember similar story from some
months ago?).

The question is why was it necessary to publish this notorious and,
AFAIK, thoroughly compromised, piece of ideological crap? Especially,
taking into an account that ideology behind this exercise totally
misfired: instead of being a savior from antisemitism, this book
turned out to be one of the favorite tools of the antisemits (among
other things, it became one of the cornerstones for Lev Gumilev's
theory on how the Khazar-Jews had been trying to slow down development
of the Slavs).

[samsloan]

I completely agree that the intention of the author has backfired. The
author said that he wrote the book to stop antisemitism. However,
instead it has been used to promote antisemitism.

However, it is not true that the theory has been disproved or
compromised. Many, perhaps even most, Jews believe it or some version
of it. One example of this is Shlomo Sand, an Israeli who writes that
he would be imprisoned and jailed if he could not prove his life-long
connection to Israel.

http://www.geostrategie.com/781/shlomo-sand-l%E2%80%99exil-du-peuple-juif-est-un-mythe/

DNA testing has proven that The Jews are not all descended from
Abraham or Israel and thus are not all "The Children of Israel".

Sam Sloan

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586

[Denis Beauregard]

On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 08:00:37 -0700 (PDT), samsloan
<samh...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>On Apr 26, 6:35 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> On 26/04/2012 13:55, samsloan wrote:
>>
>> > The book is out now finally. It already has some sales and a sales
>> > rank.
>>
>> Just out of interest, do you have permission to re-publish this book,
>> and if so, from whom?
>

>The work is public domain because the author and his wife committed
>suicide in a suicide pact, leaving no heirs.

I don't think that suicide makes a work public domain. As for heir,
there is law saying something like heirs are family relatives,
starting from close relatives (children, parents, sibling) to cousins.
You could be sued by cousins if they learn about that...


Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur cédérom à 1780 - On CD-ROM to 1780

[Wjhonson]

http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm

-----Original Message-----
From: Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-f...@fr.invalid>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Apr 26, 2012 10:21 am
Subject: Re: The Khazars and the Jewish Question


On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 08:00:37 -0700 (PDT), samsloan
samh...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>On Apr 26, 6:35 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On 26/04/2012 13:55, samsloan wrote:
>
> > The book is out now finally. It already has some sales and a sales
> > rank.
>
> Just out of interest, do you have permission to re-publish this book,
> and if so, from whom?

The work is public domain because the author and his wife committed
suicide in a suicide pact, leaving no heirs.
I don't think that suicide makes a work public domain. As for heir,

here is law saying something like heirs are family relatives,

tarting from close relatives (children, parents, sibling) to cousins.

ou could be sued by cousins if they learn about that...

enis
--

enis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)

es Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/

rench in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/

ur cédérom à 1780 - On CD-ROM to 1780

------------------------------
o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
he message

[AlexMilman]

Of course, it was because it is in a direct contradiction with the
known facts, like the Jews moving from medieval Germany to Poland and
not other way around (actions of Casimir the Great are, AFAIK, not in
doubt). Ditto for presumably total conversion of the Khazars: it is
well-known that quiet a few of them converted either into Christianity
or into Islam before leadership (and _some_ rank and file) adopted
Judaism. Then, the areas of the former Khazar Kingdom (at the time of
conversion) are practically void of the Jews (except for those who
moved into these areas reasonably recently and for the Karaims in the
Crimea).

>Many, perhaps even most, Jews believe it or some version
> of it.

I have no idea why do you think so.

> One example of this is Shlomo Sand, an Israeli who writes that
> he would be imprisoned and jailed if he could not prove his life-long
> connection to Israel.

There is a big difference between someone's personal experience and
majority. Most of the Jews whom I know don't believe in this story so
what does this prove? Especially taking into an account that Shlomo
Sand is anything but a representative of ANY majority (except perhaps
majority of the extreme lefties).

> DNA testing has proven that The Jews are not all descended from
> Abraham or Israel

Taking into an account that Abraham is a legendary figure and that, as
a result, his DNA are hardly available, this statement does not make
any practical sense. The same goes for the attempt to use the Bible
literally (unless you are going to tell that you believe description
of the Creation as well).

[AlexMilman]

On Apr 26, 11:53 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

"In June 2010, genetic research supervised by geneticist Harry Ostrer
of the New York University School of Medicine, and published in the
American Journal of Human Genetics, led to a whole series of
journalistic comments on Sand's book.[13] An article in Newsweek
titled "The DNA of Abraham's Children" challenges through genetic
analysis Sand's assertion that modern European Jews are descended from
Khazars, a Turkic group: "The DNA has spoken: no." This study,
Newsweek writes, undermines rather than supports Sand's position,
showing instead how modern Jewish genes can be traced back to a common
people of Middle East origin.[14] A New York Times article on the same
studies notes they "refute the suggestion made last year by the
historian Shlomo Sand in his book The Invention of the Jewish People
that Jews have no common origin but are a miscellany of people in
Europe and Central Asia who converted to Judaism at various times".
[15] Similarly, an article in Science states that Sand's hypotheses
"clash with several recent studies suggesting that Jewishness,
including the Ashkenazi version, has deep genetic roots". According to
Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania,
Ostrer's study "clearly shows a genetic common ancestry of all Jewish
populations." Geneticist Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan,
Ann Arbor, states that although Oster's study "does not appear to
support" the Khazar hypothesis, it "doesn't entirely eliminate it
either."[16]

Wiki article regarding Shlomo and his "theory".

[samsloan]

On Apr 26, 12:10 pm, AlexMilman <alexmil...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Apr 26, 11:53 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > DNA testing has proven that The Jews are not all descended from
> > Abraham or Israel
>

type.> Taking into an account that Abraham is a legendary figure and

that, as
> a result, his DNA are hardly available, this statement does not make
> any practical sense. The same goes for the attempt to use the Bible
> literally (unless you are going to tell that you believe description
> of the Creation as well).

OK Let me modify that last statement.

DNA testing has proved that no one man, be it Abraham, Israel or
somebody else, is the father of all or most the of the Jews or that
Tamar or anybody else is the mother of most of the Jews. If Abraham
was the father then all male Jews would share the same Y-DNA
haplogroup. If Tamar (the hooker) was the mother they they would all
share the same mtDNA type.

European Jews are about as diverse as all Europeans in DNA types so
this proves that the Jews are not much more related to each other than
all Europeans are related to each other.

[samsloan]

On Apr 26, 12:16 pm, AlexMilman <alexmil...@msn.com> wrote:

> According to
> Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania,
> Ostrer's study "clearly shows a genetic common ancestry of all Jewish
> populations." Geneticist Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan,
> Ann Arbor, states that although Oster's study "does not appear to
> support" the Khazar hypothesis, it "doesn't entirely eliminate it
> either."[16]
>
> Wiki article regarding Shlomo and his "theory".

I am of course familiar with Oster's study and I have dealt with it in
my reprint of the book.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586

All you have to do is look at the map and see that in order for modern
humans to get from Africa to Europe they had to travel through the
Middle East. Thus, all of us, whether we are Jews or not, have our
origins in the Middle East.

It really does not matter whether the European Jews are Khazars or
not. The point is that the European Jews are converts from some other
religion. They are not direct descendants of the Jews that Moses led
from Egypt to Israel, a trip of only 230 miles that took 40 years.

You can see conversions taking place today. For seven years I worked
with a company of Orthodox Jews in Queens. They were originally from
Iran. Their top manager was an Indian who wore a yarmulke every day
and said he was Jewish. There are some Jews in India.

A few years ago I met him on the street. He said he had lost his job
there. He was no longer wearing a yarmulke.

I am sure he was never Jewish. He had just said he was Jewish to get
the job.

Sam Sloan

[John Briggs]

On 26/04/2012 16:00, samsloan wrote:
> On Apr 26, 6:35 am, John Briggs<john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> On 26/04/2012 13:55, samsloan wrote:
>>
>>> The book is out now finally. It already has some sales and a sales
>>> rank.
>>
>> Just out of interest, do you have permission to re-publish this book,
>> and if so, from whom?
>

> The work is public domain because the author and his wife committed
> suicide in a suicide pact, leaving no heirs.

That is just untrue - you have violated US and UK (European) copyright.
The Koestler estate and his publishers will be in contact with you.
Commercial piracy is, of course, a crime.
--
John Briggs

[Will Johnson]

On Apr 26, 12:36 pm, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 26, 12:10 pm, AlexMilman <alexmil...@msn.com> wrote:> On Apr 26, 11:53 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > DNA testing has proven that The Jews are not all descended from
> > > Abraham or Israel
>
> type.> Taking into an account that Abraham is a legendary figure and
> that, as
>
> > a result, his DNA are hardly available, this statement does not make
> > any practical sense. The same goes for the attempt to use the Bible
> > literally (unless you are going to tell that you believe description
> > of the Creation as well).
>
> OK Let me modify that last statement.
>
> DNA testing has proved that no one man, be it Abraham, Israel or

> somebody else, is the father of all or most the of the Jews or thatTamaror anybody else is the mother of most of the Jews. If Abraham

> was the father then all male Jews would share the same Y-DNA

> haplogroup. IfTamar(the hooker) was the mother they they would all

> share the same mtDNA type.
>
> European Jews are about as diverse as all Europeans in DNA types so
> this proves that the Jews are not much more related to each other than
> all Europeans are related to each other.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586
>
> Sam Sloan

Sam this is not the case.
mtDNA is only passed to you from your mother.
Males do not pass any mtDNA to their offspring at all.

So Tamar passed her mtDNA to her sons and daughters both, but ONLY Her
daughters passed it on to their children.
So, the fact that some or even most Jews don't share the same mtDNA
does not mean that Tamar was not the *ancestress* of them all, only
that there were also intermarriages and conversions.

That all Jews do not share the same Y-DNA does not prove that Abraham
was not the ancestor of them all, only that there were other male
ancestors as well. But we already knew that there have been
intermarriages and conversions among the Jews.

Ruth was a Moabitess.

[samsloan]

And who might you be?

[AlexMilman]

On Apr 26, 3:59 pm, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 26, 12:16 pm, AlexMilman <alexmil...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >  According to
> > Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania,
> > Ostrer's study "clearly shows a genetic common ancestry of all Jewish
> > populations." Geneticist Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan,
> > Ann Arbor, states that although Oster's study "does not appear to
> > support" the Khazar hypothesis, it "doesn't entirely eliminate it
> > either."[16]
>
> > Wiki article regarding Shlomo and his "theory".
>
> I am of course familiar with Oster's study and I have dealt with it in
> my reprint of the book.
>

> http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586

>
> All you have to do is look at the map and see that in order for modern
> humans to get from Africa to Europe they had to travel through the
> Middle East. Thus, all of us, whether we are Jews or not, have our
> origins in the Middle East.
>
> It really does not matter whether the European Jews are Khazars or
> not.

Wow! _This_ was the main point (AFAIK) of the book you are publishing.
However, the point is that they (or rather most of them) have little
or nothing whatsoever to do with the Khazars.

The point is that the European Jews are converts from some other
> religion.

_Some_ of them probably are and some of them are product of the mixed
marriages. However, it is quite different from your initial
statements. You are, seemingly, switching from K's "theory" to one of
Shlomo (which routinely happens when you read one more book on any
subject :-)).

> They are not direct descendants of the Jews that Moses led
> from Egypt to Israel, a trip of only 230 miles that took 40 years.

As I already said, taking Bible literally is plain foolish as an
argument. Well, you are also missing a tiny insignificant 'fact' (as
far as those can go together with the Bible) that most of the way it
was not a travel but a conquest by a rather small and backward tribe
of the territories populated by more numerous and more highly
developed tribes. It is like to saying that it took the Mongols 6
decades to get through China.

.

>
> You can see conversions taking place today. For seven years I worked
> with a company of Orthodox Jews in Queens. They were originally from
> Iran.

Hopefully, you are not going to tell us that they are Khazars as
well...

>Their top manager was an Indian who wore a yarmulke every day
> and said he was Jewish. There are some Jews in India.

And in Japan. It seems that you (and the people like Shlomo) are
wasting time and effort trying to break through the open door: It is
well known that over millenias there were conversions and mixed
marriages. However, it is a big leap of "logic" to jump from there to
the statement that most of the European are "somebody else". AFAIK,
there is no solid proof to such a jump. What is worse, in your initial
post of this thread you produced a narrative of what, in your opinion,
represents "mainstream opinion" regarding history of the European
Jews. This narrative was so full of the fundamental mistakes that,
short of assuming that you were making a joke, the only plausible
conclusion could be that you are not familiar with the basics of the
subject. Small wonder that you are ready to believe any clown, no
matter how bizarre or politically motivated his theory is.

>
> A few years ago I met him on the street. He said he had lost his job
> there. He was no longer wearing a yarmulke.
>
> I am sure he was never Jewish. He had just said he was Jewish to get
> the job.

Sorry, this story, while entertaining, is supposed to prove what
exactly?

[Bill]

In article <2a405a75-8ebb-4c94-bed8-
991035...@w7g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>, samh...@gmail.com says...

Koestler's estate, famously, funds a Chair in Parapsychology at the
University of Edinburgh.

Expect to hear from their lawyers.

--
William Black

When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's
time to leave.

[AlexMilman]

This is not a relevant question. The relevant question is your right
(or absence of thereof) to publish a specific book just because its
author is dead.

[AlexMilman]

On Apr 26, 6:14 pm, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <2a405a75-8ebb-4c94-bed8-
> 991035a01...@w7g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>, samhsl...@gmail.com says...

>
>
>
> > On Apr 26, 6:35 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > > On 26/04/2012 13:55, samsloan wrote:
>
> > > > The book is out now finally. It already has some sales and a sales
> > > > rank.
>
> > > Just out of interest, do you have permission to re-publish this book,
> > > and if so, from whom?
> > > --
> > > John Briggs
>
> > The work is public domain because the author and his wife committed
> > suicide in a suicide pact, leaving no heirs.
>
> Koestler's estate,  famously,  funds a Chair in Parapsychology at the
> University of  Edinburgh.

Somehow, THIS seems to fit K's profile rather nicely. :-)

[samsloan]

On Apr 26, 3:14 pm, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <2a405a75-8ebb-4c94-bed8-

> 991035a01...@w7g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>, samhsl...@gmail.com says...

>
>
>
> > On Apr 26, 6:35 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > > On 26/04/2012 13:55, samsloan wrote:
>
> > > > The book is out now finally. It already has some sales and a sales
> > > > rank.
>
> > > Just out of interest, do you have permission to re-publish this book,
> > > and if so, from whom?
> > > --
> > > John Briggs
>
> > The work is public domain because the author and his wife committed
> > suicide in a suicide pact, leaving no heirs.
>
> Koestler's estate,  famously,  funds a Chair in Parapsychology at the
> University of  Edinburgh.
>
> Expect to hear from their lawyers.
>
> --
> William Black
>
> When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's
> time to leave.

I am not worried.

Sam Sloan

[Sholom Simon]

At 05:20 PM 4/26/2012, gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com wrote:
>European Jews are about as diverse as all
>Europeans in DNA types so this proves that the
>Jews are not much more related to each other
>than all Europeans are related to each other.

Ever hear of the BRCA2 mutation? Tay-Sachs? Gauchers? Riley–Day Syndrome?

>The work is public domain because the author and
>his wife committed suicide in a suicide pact, leaving no heirs.

Whether or not a work is in the public domain has
nothing to do with whether the author has
heirs. Copyright is a federal violation that is
wholly independent of whether the author is around or not.

-- Sholom

[JTEM]

AlexMilman <alexmil...@msn.com> wrote:

> Quote:
>
> "In June 2010, genetic research supervised by geneticist Harry Ostrer
> of the New York University School of Medicine, and published in the
> American Journal of Human Genetics, led to a whole series of
> journalistic comments on Sand's book.[13] An article in Newsweek
> titled "The DNA of Abraham's Children" challenges through genetic
> analysis Sand's assertion that modern European Jews are descended from
> Khazars, a Turkic group: "The DNA has spoken: no."

It's hardly as issue, as nobody is going to lose sleep
over whether we're talking ethnic Khazars or merely
people living within their kingdom....

> This study,
> Newsweek writes, undermines rather than supports Sand's position,
> showing instead how modern Jewish genes can be traced back to a common
> people of Middle East origin.

THIS just plain isn't true.

Why I find this story so interesting is that it fits the medieval
story of Prestor John like a glove, only they seemed to have
confused the precise religion.

As for the believability of the stories of the fabled Jewish
kingdom, most seem to accept it as truth, particularly
amongst Jewish organizations & groups:

http://www.hebrewhistory.org/factpapers/khazars23.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3591990,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,425687,00.html

http://archaeologynewsreport.blogspot.com/2008/10/lost-capital-of-jewish-khazars.html

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/127483#.T5pCg0ft-Wk

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3072167/Jewish-city-feared-by-Stalin-is-rediscovered.html

Try googling: Archaeology Khazar Jews

Add Israel if you want to....



-- --

I honestly use this, and is save me money! Try $30
worth of food at a local restaurant for $15!

http://www.groupon.com/r/uu39797360

[╠☼╣Ǚ∑§â€Ð_ID_SBR_­X|||DI©*J*Ω∏lol؟♫1ﷲ☻∞= 8☺╣☼╠?‎]

> http://archaeologynewsreport.blogspot.com/2008/10/lost-capital-of-jew...
>
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/127483#.T5pCg0ft-Wk
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3072167/Jewis...

>
> Try googling:  Archaeology Khazar Jews
>
> Add Israel if you want to....
>
> -- --
>
> I honestly use this, and is save me money!  Try $30
> worth of food at a local restaurant for $15!
>
> http://www.groupon.com/r/uu39797360

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/50c567f738bc90aa/6c4d46df4dbd0f01?hl=en&q=#6c4d46df4dbd0f01

when u appeared in 2006, as a mossad plant to "support" american
invasion of Iran and when you responded on the subject, searching
blogs which put forward arguments against such action.....

well, u and your Jewish parasitic friends have yet to reach your
objective.

As I said yesterday, you can see a kike coming a mile off...

Death to Israel and allaho akbar LOL

[AlexMilman]

On Apr 27, 2:59 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> AlexMilman <alexmil...@msn.com> wrote:
> > Quote:
>
> > "In June 2010, genetic research supervised by geneticist Harry Ostrer
> > of the New York University School of Medicine, and published in the
> > American Journal of Human Genetics, led to a whole series of
> > journalistic comments on Sand's book.[13] An article in Newsweek
> > titled "The DNA of Abraham's Children" challenges through genetic
> > analysis Sand's assertion that modern European Jews are descended from
> > Khazars, a Turkic group: "The DNA has spoken: no."
>
> It's hardly as issue, as nobody is going to lose sleep
> over whether we're talking ethnic Khazars or merely
> people living within their kingdom....

Can't tell about loosing sleep but the whole theory had been created
and supported by a prominent historian, Lev Gumilev (not to mention
numerous supporters) on this specific account.

>
> > This study,
> > Newsweek writes, undermines rather than supports Sand's position,
> > showing instead how modern Jewish genes can be traced back to a common
> > people of Middle East origin.
>
> THIS just plain isn't true.

Can't tell one way or another neither about article nor about value of
your opinion.

>
> Why I find this story so interesting is that it fits the medieval
> story of Prestor John like a glove, only they seemed to have
> confused the precise religion.
>

Except that above mentioned historian (unlike you, he was an
acknowledged specialist in the nomadic cultures), made a totally
different association: one with the Nestorian Christians of the
Central Asia. Try http://www.imobilco.ru/books/-/262921/

> As for the believability of the stories of the fabled Jewish
> kingdom,

Khazar Kaganate hardly was "Jewish Kingdom" except for the religion of
the top leadership and even then, it belongs to the last period of its
existence. The famous letter (the main source on the subject) contains
a lot of bragging: by the time it was written, Kaganate controlled
much less territory than described in the letter and, surprise,
surprise, big chunk of its population were Christians and Muslims.

> most

"Most" of whom? Few groups that you found by googling? Who cares...

> seem to accept it as truth, particularly
> amongst Jewish organizations & groups:

[Yawn]

It is the same as to say that most of white population of the US
believes into UFO's based on existence of few groups.

The only serious component of the whole brouhaha that it was used as a
part of antisemitic propaganda promoted not only by ...er...
"enthusiasts" but by some reputable historians as well.

>
> http://www.hebrewhistory.org/factpapers/khazars23.html

It seems that you are confusing apples and oranges. Jewish presence in
the area is not questioned by anybody. Their fact of their influence
on Khazars is also not disputed by anybody (AFAIK). The problem is in
the leap from these known facts to a statement that the modern
European Jews are descendants of the Khazars (predominantly Turks).
Another popular leap of "logic" was/is that the Jews corrupted
Khazars, turned them into a parasitic society leeching on (big
surprise) the Slavs and other neighbors.

>
> Try googling:  Archaeology Khazar Jews

Try to read something more substantial. For example, http://russiancity.ru/ybooks/y1.htm

[samsloan]

On Apr 26, 10:13 pm, Sholom Simon <sho...@aishdas.org> wrote:

Thank you for expressing your personal opinion on this important
topic.

Sam Sloan

[JTEM]

On Apr 27, 6:03 am, ╠☼╣Ǚ∑§â€Ð_ID_SBR_­X|||DI©*J*Ω∏lol؟♫1ﷲ☻∞= 8☺╣☼╠?

<simonb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> when u appeared in 2006,

1992, actually. Well, 1993 as "JTEM." My first ISP insisted that
everybody had only one middle initial....

> as a mossad plant to "support" american
> invasion of Iran and when you responded on the subject, searching
> blogs which put forward arguments against such action.....

Well if by "Blogs" you mean "Usenet," I did frequently point out to
Bushbots that all their arguments for war with Iraq, though false,
suddenly became true when you erased the 'q' and replaced it with
an 'n'.

Iraq NEVER tried to buy Nigerian yellow cake, Iran DID. Iraq never
supported Al Qaeda, Iran DID. Iraq had no WMD programs, Iran
still does.... so on & so on...

[JTEM]

AlexMilman <alexmil...@msn.com> wrote:

> JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Why I find this story so interesting is that it fits the medieval
> > story of Prestor John like a glove, only they seemed to have
> > confused the precise religion.

> Except that above mentioned historian (unlike you, he was an
> acknowledged specialist in the nomadic cultures), made a totally
> different association: one with the Nestorian Christians of the
> Central Asia. Tryhttp://www.imobilco.ru/books/-/262921/

The two stories are linked, and if you honestly think someone
would have to be an "acknowledged specialist in nomadic
cultures" to see the similarities, you have no business discussing
anything more complicated than a dancing, singing purple
dinosaur.

You're welcome.

[╠☼╣Ǚ∑§â€Ð_ID_SBR_­X|||DI©*J*Ω∏lol؟♫1ﷲ☻∞= 8☺╣☼╠?‎]

On May 3, 10:13 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 27, 6:03 am, ╠☼╣Ǚ∑§â€Ð_ID_SBR_­X|||DI©*J*Ω∏lol؟♫1ﷲ☻∞= 8☺╣☼╠?
>
> <simonb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > when u appeared in 2006,
>
> 1992, actually. Well, 1993 as "JTEM."  My first ISP insisted that
> everybody had only one middle initial....
>
> > as a mossad plant to "support" american
> > invasion of Iran and when you responded on the subject, searching
> > blogs which put forward arguments against such action.....
>
> Well if by "Blogs" you mean "Usenet," I did frequently point out to
> Bushbots that all their arguments for war with Iraq, though false,
> suddenly became true when you erased the 'q' and replaced it with
> an 'n'.

well bushbots bought it, but couldn't do it, cos their military told
them they shouldn't. The same military which is telling Israelis and
Americans and most OTHERS except Qatar, Bahrain, KSA(Taliban v1.0).

Again, u have not proved ur existence since 1992-3. Why when google
took over dejanews, did they not carry the archives? a simple link to
an email address that you lost, would suffice, not for me now, but for
others

then I'll answer the next bit.

>
> Iraq NEVER tried to buy Nigerian yellow cake, Iran DID.  Iraq never
> supported Al Qaeda, Iran DID.  Iraq had no WMD programs, Iran
> still does.... so on & so on...

Hence, it is NOT the "Cakewalk" that you Yanki-Yoodle-Yidmishes
promised with Iraq!?

[JTEM]

╠☼╣Ǚ∑§â€Ð_ID_SBR_­X|||DI©*J*Ω∏lol؟♫1ﷲ☻∞= 8☺╣☼╠?
<simonb...@gmail.com> wrote:


> > Well if by "Blogs" you mean "Usenet," I did frequently point out to
> > Bushbots that all their arguments for war with Iraq, though false,
> > suddenly became true when you erased the 'q' and replaced it with
> > an 'n'.

> well bushbots bought it,

There's nothing to buy. Iran is a terrorist supporting state and Iran
will have the bomb, and the Conservatives want it. It's the whole
retarded "Balance of Power" deal that Conservatives have always
loved, and has never worked. Nuclear Iran is supposed to balance
out Nuclear Israel....

Pakistan is no good. They're locked in their own "Balance of Power"
struggle with India.

Of course, it's only a matter of time before these idiot balance-
of-power scenarios come crashing down, as they always do.

(Note WWI)

Chances are Pakistan will go first. They almost have a number of
times. In fact, they likely would have pushed the button some
years back, if it weren't for the "War on Terror" and the presence
of the U.S. military....

[Bill]

In article <9bf04a91-343f-41f7-abe4-
920e24...@n5g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, jte...@gmail.com says...

> Chances are Pakistan will go first. They almost have a number of
> times. In fact, they likely would have pushed the button some
> years back, if it weren't for the "War on Terror" and the presence
> of the U.S. military....

What reason do you think they'll give?

They're invariably the aggressor in their wars with India.